WEBVTT

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Hey, everybody, Objectively Dan here. Now, did you know that two

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thirds of divorces in heterosexual marriages in
the US are initiated by women. Did

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you also know that there's a growing
number of people who would like to put

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a stop to that by ending no
fault divorce laws. Now, ending a

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marriage can be and probably should be
a mutual decision, but it should also

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be available as a unilateral decision.
No longer does someone have to prove abuse

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or infidelity to leave a marriage,
and no longer does someone have to stay

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in a toxic marriage, at least
until the law changes otherwise. So if

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you think a divorce is a sin, or you think people should remain trapped

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in a marriage, please try to
give us a call. If you can't,

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because the show is starting right now. Greetings, seasons, Greetings,

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I don't know what spring seasons?
Greetings? Why not? Hello, I'm

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objectively Dan. This is Sophia.
You know we are talk heythen this is

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the law show that happens on Sundays
for you every single week. Talking than

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as a product of the Atheis Community
of Boston, a five O one C

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three nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion
of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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and the separation of religion and government. And not only is this a

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live call in show, but it's
a call in show part of the live

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call in show. That's the most
important part of the call in the live

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show is the call in part of
the live show. It's live and it's

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a call in show, which means
you should call in right now. The

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number for that is a five to
one two nine nine nine two four to

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two, or you can call from
your computer at tiny dot cc slash call

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t H and you can do it. You don't have to wait until we

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stop talking and then we get to
the calls. You can call in at

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any time and we'll get to you
anyway. Just want to emphasize that today

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because we need some folks to call
into the show. We got some open

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lines right now, but we are
ready to talk to you when you can.

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Uh, Sophia, how are you
doing this fine, Sunday? I'm

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doing well. I like your slam
home. U there about being a Collins

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show and prov a little bit.
Yeah, at a lot of a lot

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of themes in that, including calling
and being live, I'd say, but

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we don't have time to dissect that
now we've got a show to run,

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so yeah, yeah, So Sophia, we have a segment that we do

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every week. It's the Question of
the Week. You know this, It's

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the talk Heathen to Me segment.
Every week we tried to ask that.

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Last week we asked what was the
sin that made God flood the earth?

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And here are the top three answers
for that. Number three comes from Chuck

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Gatos five, three, eight seven. God flooded the world because people were

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starting to worship Smoky the Bear and
had to be shown how the big guy

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handles for as fires. Chuck Gatos, you you give you. You're featured

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a lot in our top comments.
This is the most unhinged comment I think

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I've seen. I like to think
he's referencing the fact that I was smoking

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the bear last Halloween on the show
show, and so I like to think

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I participated somehow in this or contributed
him. I didn't make that connection.

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That's a deep cut too, that
was the case, let me know.

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Yeah, thanks for your contribution either
way. Number two comes from Rick Reasons,

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who says what sin caused the flood? Sloth? Do you see God

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forgot to put out the burning bush? He used to freak Moses out,

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so he hurried to keep for the
rest of his creation. Catching fire here

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was a slight overcorrection, but the
bush is out now. It's just very

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funny. Also, definitely getting events
out of order. Moses definitely came after

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the flood. But you know,
nothing succeeds like excess, right, and

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who knows that better than God?
I guess, I guess, so,

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I guess you're right about that.
Number one comes from Goodie white Hat,

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who says God flooded the world because
someone said his reign was weak, which

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you know is a thing that's a
thing right at us now, because I

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I guess, so, I guess
if you're personally insulted, you can just

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kind of do whatever you want.
If you're God. I don't know that'll

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really make rules for folks like God, he's the one that kind of does

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that. But anyway, the prompt
for this next week is what's a good

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response to Jesus Loves You? You
should enter your answer below in the comments

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and we will read the top three
answers. But Sophia, what's your response

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to say like like in a gay
way before the show? And it's still

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funny? I don't know why it's
so funny when you say it, but

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it is. And just to be
very clear, it would be great,

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sure, you know, why not? I just feel like that's the if

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someone is telling me, I just
feel like that would that would throw them

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off and make me laugh. So
that's that's where I'm going with that.

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Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean, the the very like

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sardonic, mean person in me would
want to say, well, I don't

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love him back, right, or
something along those lines, like it's like,

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why there's a one way relationship,
right, Like I'm not you know,

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I'm receiving, but I'm not giving. In this you heard the PRC

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Peaches song God is a Freak?
I don't think. No, it's very

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fun, but the whole idea is
like that God's kind of watching you when

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you're doing all these sexual things and
so God's a bit of a freak,

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and that's that's the gist of the
song. And it makes me think of

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that, like, m so,
see this is a little weird. Oh

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man, Well, we're already off
to a great start here on We're doing

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a really great show show, the
Sophia Show you, and we should point

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this out too. Because so in
case you guys don't know, we always

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have a host and co host.
That's usually how we do the shows.

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And all that really means is host
is kind of given pace on the show

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and then doing announcements. But for
some reason, you were your top billing

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today on our thumbnail that was on
the live show. You your your face

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is on there first, so maybe
maybe you should just take them. I

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mean, first of all, I'm
not going to volunteer for more work that

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you're already in the process of doing, so you can just keep that.

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I'm perfectly content. But also it
might just be that, like I'm a

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little more glam Dan, I think
you know, I think you're probably right.

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I think that's that's probably why they
did that. So next time,

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lipstick and lashes, gotta get on
it, man, lipstick and lashes.

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You know that's good Patreon goal right
there. I don't know why we don't

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do that kind of thing more real
quickly, we need to give a special

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shout out to the wonderful, awesome
crew that he'll make this show happen.

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In case you don't know, it's
not just to be in Sophia doing all

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the work. It's these lovely folks
behind the scenes making things happen. So

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thank you crew, and thank you
to you everybody that makes this show go

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round, because man, if it
was just us, Sophia, it wouldn't

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happen. Oh you know, I
don't know how to do any of this

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stuff. Just I don't know.
We call it a day, say yeah,

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jokes and go home. I mean, yes, true. Okay,

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Well, we do have one caller
in the queue here. You want to

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want to get this started, Sophie, Okay, I want to talk to

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this person. There's an interesting,
interesting topic. I think we'll see how

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this conversation goes. We have mcguil
who's calling in from England. Miguel,

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you're live on Talk Heathen. What's
going on? Yes, hello, Hello.

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I call him about a very interesting
topic that has gone under the radar,

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you know. And it's the claim
that the Quran has been memorized.

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And I don't believe that claim,
the claim that the Quran has been memorized.

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You mean, like in its entirety. I mean, I claim no

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one ever memorized the Quran. Well, you mean like the entire Quran,

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Like you're saying, no one has
ever memorized the entire Quran. Yes,

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yes, yes, that's that's okay
Muslin's claim, you know. And basically,

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I want to offer my flat in
Spain, my three bedroom flat to

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whoever the first person who proves that
the Quran has been memorized. It's like

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a price for a competition. Okay, okay, okay, wait wait how

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first of all, First of all, okay, I get it. So

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there are there so it is often
targeted Muslim f dish, right that parts

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of the Quran have been have been
memorized, which lends credence to its authenticity.

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Right, so that the idea is
like, you know that parts of

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this is the same as it was
before, so we know that the Quran's

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not changed, right, that's that's
that's what the apologist would say. But

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like, okay, regardless of that
fact, how would you even prove that

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it wasn't memorized? Like how do
how what are the rules of this competition?

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Yeah? No, The thing is
I think the Quran has never been

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memorized because the claim has never been
tested. Because if for me, for

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me personally, you know, to
memorize Kuran could be kind of a miracle,

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a literal miracle can be you know, like it would be like a

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kind of running one hundred meters in
one second something like that. Okay,

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but Miguel, how do we how
do we how if someone were to say,

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I think the Kuran has been memorized, right, how would they demonstrate

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that to you? Yeah? It's
very simple, you know. I mean

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the person whoever the candidates for the
flood, you know, once to win

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the flood, just to write the
Qoran from memory. And that said,

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if someone can't write, to do
that from memory, to do it in

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front of you, yeah, I
mean, yeah, I would like to

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be in front of me. But
I think it is you know, that

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would be like a massive event,
you understand. That would be like I

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don't know, like the discovery of
the that the Earth is around you understand.

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It would be a massive test,
you know, because if they don't,

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if the candidates don't get an except
copy of the Quran, that would

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mean that would mean that they have
been lying on a particular translation. Also

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so you can check it. Yeah, it has to be. It has

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to be Arabic, because the traditionally
Muslims only except the Arabic translation of the

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Quran to be the most authentic,
right, I think, but the thing

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is, it's not about authenticity.
I mean, I mean, obviously it's

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about authenticity as well, but for
me, it's about a memory, you

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know, I mean someone memory in
any language. I mean, I give

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I given my my claff took him
in any language understime. Well, I

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think the thing is, though,
I mean, we can have somebody to

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memorize the modern text of the Quran, and that wouldn't demonstrate the authenticity of

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the Quran in its early days anyway, right, Like we wouldn't be able

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to go back in time and figure
out, oh, this was exactly what

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Muhammad, you know I talked about
from the beginning anyway. So it's kind

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of a mood point, right The
test is not about all the to to

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to find out if the Quran was
authentic. The test it took something if

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Muslims are lying, because if you
say you have memorized the Quran and you

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haven't done it, you're lying.
It's as simple as that. Yeah,

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I don't even know. This is
outside of my scope of it. I

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don't even know if Muslims say that
the whole Quran is memorized by single people.

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I almost wonder if different people like
memorize just arts of it? Is

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it? Is it the actual?
Maybe I wish Richard was here. Maybe

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Richard could tell me if if that's
true, and I because he would probably

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know more than me. But I
don't know, Sophia, what do you

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think? So I think that my
sorry ahead the thing is you go to

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internet. I read that two hundred
two hundred million, two hundred million of

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Muslims are estimated to to to to
have me write the entire Quran from I

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mean it's as punishing. I mean
it should be pretty easy true that if

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somebody was just like, oh,
I'm one of those those people that Richard

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says that the claim apparently is bad
messaging right now, Yeah, but it

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is individuals and they're called hafees,
and they have competitions since he recites it

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most accurately, so that might be
an interesting place to look and be like,

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okay, like I want to see
one of those competitions. I mean,

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realistically, I don't know if I
have the patients. But I also

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wonder if someone's watching this show who's
like, I don't know, I imagine

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some seventeen year old dude who's about
to be on summer break in like Ohio

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and has nothing else to do.
I could imagine they're being just like,

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hey, you know what I'm going
to do this summer, like memorize the

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Kuran so I can get that guy's
flat, Like there is part of me

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that feels like that is likely to
happen. Which it. You know,

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if you want to take that,
take that risk, take that bet,

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go for it. I think it's
demanding demand improve that the Koran memoris.

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I think it could mean the end. The end of it could mean the

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end of Lam. I mean,
basically, atheists improved that the Quran has

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been memorized, that good, good
end Islam. Wait wait, why would

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that end Islam? Because it's good
to expose muslimsulf liars? Basically, you

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know, if true? I mean, mis misremembering something is not the same

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as lying. I feel like though, right, like you can definitely misremember

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some events and not be a liar. I don't know, yeah, I

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mean, two hundred million people claim
that they have memorized the Quran and they

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you test them and they have not
memorized more. Okay, okay, okay,

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if they're if they're making the claim, okay, if they're making the

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claim, yes, I know the
entire Quran, and then they can't reproduce

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it. Okay, then sure,
yeah those people are liars, But it

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doesn't make Islam a whole lie.
You see what I'm saying here, Like,

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okay, again, I'm an atheist. I don't think Islam broadly speaking

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is true in any sense of the
word. I'm just saying it doesn't necessarily

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compromise the whole religion, at least
I'm not convinced of that yet. I

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think I would also say that just
because we have a claim on the Internet

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that two hundred million people may have
memorized the Quran, even if one of

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those people has, then there is
truth to the phrase that it has been

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memorized. And also, even if
we prove that all those two hundred million

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people don't actually know the Quran,
we can't say that it's never been memorized

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because there's now been thousands of years. Maybe somebody in ther you know,

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eight hundred did it, and we
couldn't necessarily prove that that wasn't the case.

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So I don't think it would dismantle
Yeah, I agree, it wouldn't

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dismantle Islam. It would just mean
that like some people who say they have

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something memorized, don't you know the
point you don't understand. You know,

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to memorize the Quran, it could
require a whole life dedicated to do it.

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You understand, if you memor rite
the Quran, you know, your

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entire life trying to memor write a
book. You know, surely if you

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accomplish the mission, you complete the
goal. Surely you want to pay so,

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surely you want to be recognized.
Surely you want it to be you

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understand, you don't keep its secret
for you. I don't know. That

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sounds like that's like maybe what would
be the case for you, and to

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be honest, the case for me. Yeah, I would want people to

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acknowledge it. But that's not necessarily
how everyone is. As surprising as it

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may be, particularly if this is
like an act of religious devotion to someone,

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then it might be something that they
do choose to keep to themselves.

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Like what if this is you know, a farmer in a remote part of

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the world who is working on memorizing
this as they're out, you know,

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chilling soil. I think that that's
I don't know. The world is a

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big place with a lot of different
people. Not everyone operates with the same

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motivations, and so I feel like
that's a big claim to be honest anyway.

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You know, I live it open
for you, you know, so

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you want to take advantage of this, this kind of gup. You know,

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I live for you. You know, a flat, My flat is

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over for whoever I memorize or all
right, I'm not listen. Listen,

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there's a guy named Miguel in England
who has a flat for anybody that can

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disprove this. We don't know how
you can do it. We we haven't

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figured that part out yet. But
if you can do it, find Miguel.

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I guess I don't know how are
they going to do that, but

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you know, whatever, whatever it
takes, right Miguel flat for whoever,

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whoever proof So you're right, the
Quran from memory, I mean, it's

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right. It's a flat. Is
a nice flat flat? Teach them living

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room nice for these times, in
these times. I'm sure I know some

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people like it's going to be easier
for me to memorize the Quran than it

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is for me to come up with
the money would take to buy a flat.

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Let's find where the fuck Miguel lives. I don't know we're not gonna

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we're not gonna post your contact in
fil Miguel before you get any ideas.

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Okay, we're not doing that.
So you know, yeah, it's very

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easy to contact me because I'm a
I mean, I have discovered the nature

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of addiction. I have discovered the
nature of gold. I have discovered addiction.

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I mean, I have discovered it
is a fallacy. I am.

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It's very easy to compapt me.
I'm not a secret all right, I

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thank you, I am. I'll
leave it at that. I'm not gonna

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let it look, I'm not gonna
let you say any compromising information. I

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gotta let you go before before that
happens, Miguel. So I do feel

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like I love the attitude of like, hey, people can find me if

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they want. But at the same
time, I'm like, I don't know

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that that's a great idea, Like, yeah, let's maybe I'm the guy

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on this following show. Okay,
So yeah, uh yeah, I don't

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know. I don't know what's over
Okay, But okay, I am looking

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more into this. I'm just looking
at the Wikipedia article. Check this out.

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This is interesting and Iran. According
to resolution five seventy three of the

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Supreme Council of the Cultural Revolution.
There is at least one specialized examination of

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the preservation of the Quran each year, according to specific criteria. The reviewer

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of this evaluation is oh wait,
no, let me skip to the next

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part. Anyway, they do these
things where you can get a dig that

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either equates to a doctoral, master's, bachelor's associates diploma, and diploma degree

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depending on how much of the Quran
you have memorized. That's kind of crazy.

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You just have to memorize a book
and you can get a master's.

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Yeah, I kind of you know. Richard commented that they don't memorize the

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book. They learned the recitation,
like learning songs with the pacting, phrasing

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and pitch. And I'm like,
if I think back to Sunday School and

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how much I had memorized from the
Bible, done that sort of same way,

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I feel like there was also such
a period of Okay, this is

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me like trying to recall things,
so don't be I may be a little

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inaccurate or paraphrasing a bit. The
more we have written word and the ability

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to access information that we know is
consistent, the less we use our memories

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in as strict of a way as
we may be used to. You know,

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we don't have bards in the same
way who come around and tell epic

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stories and like that the Odyssey was
something that was told before it was written

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down. That's a lot to memorize. That would seem unlikely for someone to

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do today because we just don't prioritize
memory in the same way. And so

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yeah, I feel like that to
me makes it more believable that at one

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point or there was maybe more people
and it was more common to his memory

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is such lengthy work. Yeah,
yeah, no, it's true. Neil

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Postman talks about this stead of using
ourselves to death. Now we're going back

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into communication theory and shit, but
we do live in a culture that identifies

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written word is higher than the spoken
word, when in reality, you know,

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there wasn't always the case, particularly
like Muhammad's time, right, Muhammad

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is famously illiterate, So you know, the oral traditions that came about from

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that was almost as much of a
pragmatism as it was of you know,

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anything anything else. Right. It's
because when you have a culture where not

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everybody can read, it just makes
sense to have an oral tradition for a

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lot of this stuff. So like
the idea that one or two things could

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be different, I mean that that
doesn't like, that doesn't necessarily compromise Islam.

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To me, it's just like we
can we can look at way better

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reasons than just like, oh,
some people mis remember some stuff. A

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lot of true things have happened,
and people misremember the events in their retelling.

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That doesn't mean that those true events
aren't any less true, right,

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So I just think there's there's If
that's your focus, then it's you know,

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not as strong of a case.
It's never good at the Bible memorizing

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stuff. I remember struggling trying to
memorize Hamlet soliloquy in high school, and

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now I still remember a little bit
of it. But I don't know if

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I could do the whole thing,
that's all. It's I struggle really hard,

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man, I really I feel like
I want someone to sit in a

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super chest to be like try Dan, try exactly. Someone sends a super

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chat of twenty dollars, Let's do
twenty dollars, okay to talk even I

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will attempt to do Hamlet soliloquy twenty
USD Baby, that's it, I'll do

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00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:55.200
it. I like how this is
the second where you know, twenty three

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00:20:55.240 --> 00:20:57.759
minutes another show. This is the
second bet we have going, like you

306
00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:03.519
can get a lot out of today. I feel like an apartment gambling about

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00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.359
competition in terms of money. Yeah. Absolutely. Now I feel like you

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were going to say something about the
memorizing. Oh gosh, I don't necessarily

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remember what. Yeah, wow,
the irony, I know, it's no

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good. It's so good that it
was untrue that I had a spot or

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that I was going to say exactly
because I cannot remember what it was.

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Yeah. And by the way,
this this applies to the Bible too.

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While we're still talking about this,
I think this is important because like scriptural

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there's definitely especially if you look at
Old Testament. New Testament studies is a

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little bit different in how you can
categorize things because when New Testament, we

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have copies of the Gospels and copies
of the letters that aren't original copies.

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They're definitely you know, usually one
hundreds of years afterwards. Sometimes I think

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one is within a few hundred years, couples of within years, but it's

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in fragments. We don't have original
full copies and a lot of people point

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to this as, Okay, this
is evidence that the stuff could be changed.

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I absolutely think that's the case.
I absolutely think it could be changed.

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But that's a bit different when you're
talking about like oral core cultures and

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stuff, because like I don't know, like you can at least do textual

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differences and see, and yes,
there are some differences. It is interesting

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to see that the ones that we
do have are I would say somewhat minor.

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Most famously, there's like Mark,
for example, maybe you know about

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the Sofia at the end of Mark. In the Gospels, you see like

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there's this whole thing about how you
can like cure people snake poison and stuff

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like just by praying for them and
in the whole nine yards. They just

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like don't exist in early manuscripts.
Another one is h the adulterous woman that

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people throwing rocks at and Jesus says, hey, whoever has you know,

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never sinned, can cast the first
stone. Right, That's not found in

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early gospels like at all. That's
just not a thing, right. So

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so those are like I would consider
kind of big deals because it's like,

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oh, that kind of affects the
whole veracity of the narrative. But I

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don't know. It's it's so a
lot of people just kind of get the

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conversation and take it in like weird
ways, I guess, is all I'm

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saying. I don't know I'm going
with that. That's when I'm thinking about,

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like any of these things that were
written down or written down long enough

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after that. If have you ever
been in an argument with someone where you're

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like, no, you said this, and no I didn't I said this,

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or just full different realities and this
can happen ten minutes after the event.

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I feel like just because someone wrote
something down that they remembered, it

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might mean they fully believe it is
true and that in no way are they

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attempting to lie. But it certainly
doesn't mean that they actually are accurate.

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Yeah. Yeah, that takes me
so long to reach. But it's not.

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Okay, here's where I'm going with
this. It doesn't necessarily mean manipulative

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intent. That's where I'm going with
this, right, Okay, I think

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this is where I get. I
think people say, oh, well,

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the I think people have this view
of the Bible like it's this top down

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sort of instrument of control for people. And I don't think that's always been

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the case. I think you can
make a case for that in certain parts

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of the Old Testament, because there
is a period Jewish history where they went

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from an oral tradition kind of to
a more written one, and there's different

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changes in the Bible that were made
based on the rulings of the time.

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Right. But like with the New
Testament, it's just it's kind of a

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little bit more. It's a little
bit different because we don't even know,

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first of all, how we've officially
truly chose the canon of the New Testament.

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A lot of people say, oh, it's because of the Council of

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Nicea. That's not what the Counts
of Nicia is about. The Council of

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Nica is about a bunch of other
stuff. Right. So it's like,

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I hear this from atheists all the
time who think that they know this stuff,

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and it's just like it bothers me. I don't know, really does

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I very much? So for me, actually, a huge part of my

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personal deconversion was about the Council of
Nicea because I was reaching this point where

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I was starting to realize how much
I had been mistaken about things in the

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past, and again I don't necessarily
know if it was always manipulative intent.

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But I was told by people the
Earth was six thousand years old, and

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I didn't have enough information to really
counter that. I didn't realize that there

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were more specimens of Lucy's variety than
Lucy. Like, there was just so

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much that I didn't know, and
I don't necessarily think the adults around me

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knew either. Actually, like so
I have a hard time saying they were

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lying, but at the same time, like they were teaching things that were

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false. And so I was realizing
more and more of that less and less

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of sort of this need for God
to make anything make sense and to put

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everything all together, realizing how much
we actually do know about these scientific you

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know, I don't know finding theories
all this stuff. And then I was

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like, well, okay, but
if there's if you can rely on the

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text, then maybe there's something here. Maybe at least I can believe that

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all of the science stuff is true, but maybe also some of this text

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might at least be accurate enough to
something someone experienced. And then I had

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always been told that Council of Nice
a narrative that they all got together and

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sort of decided upon what made the
most sense. And it was always this

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image of these really scholarly individuals who
got together and you know, had some

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big brain time together and decided what
Christianity would be. And then to learn

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that oh there was like one guy
who was at the Council of Nicea who

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later on had a hand in deciding
what would become, you know, or

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Christian orthodoxy. I clearly I'm not
the most articulated about articulate about it right

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now, but I think for me
that was like, okay, and what

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do I even have? Yeah,
you know, there's just no need for

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God anymore. And also no no
textual like there's no human history that makes

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this make sense, right right?
Yeah? And yeah again, even if

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these kind of arguments get muddled,
it doesn't lend credits to Christianity in any

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way, shape or form. For
those who are curious, there a list

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was produced in reference from the Council
of Nicea that talks about, oh,

396
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these are the commonly accepted works,
but that's not what the Council of Nica

397
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is about. The Council of Icee
is about creditarianism. Actually, mostly it

398
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was about gnostic interpretations of the Gospels
and the Jesus message, saying that you

399
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know there was one spirit versus like
multiple spirits, like you know versus,

400
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like the Holy Spirit versus God versus
Jesus. Like that's that's more in the

401
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territory of the Council of Nicea.
So there you go, folks, folks

402
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who are curious at home. And
I gotta say, now, okay,

403
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:17.440
somebody it was Miranda Rensburger did donate
twenty dollars. So so now I go,

404
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:22.599
Okayburger, I don't have it up
in front of me. Actually,

405
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:25.960
I'm gonna put it up on the
side so in case I if I need

406
00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:27.160
to reference it. But I'm not
gonna look at it right now. Okay,

407
00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:30.480
here we go. I'm gonna try
this. This is hamlet soliloquy.

408
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.279
To be or not to be?
That is the question whether'is nobler in

409
00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:40.000
the mind to suffer the slings and
arrows about rageous fortune, or to take

410
00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:45.480
arms against the sea of troubles and
by opposing end them. And then he

411
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.079
says to dot man, I'm already
messing this up. I think you said

412
00:27:49.160 --> 00:27:53.799
to die, to sleep perchance to
dream? Is that the next one?

413
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:57.599
There's the rub for in that sleep
of death, they flesh his air to

414
00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:03.720
Melee's ala something about the thousand naturals, a thousand natural shocks, that flesh

415
00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:07.240
is heir to. Oh god,
I'm doing bad. Tis a constant,

416
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:11.160
he says, Tis a consummation de
Vallee to be wished to die to sleep?

417
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:12.960
I remember that part. Wait.
Okay, I gotta look at this

418
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:18.119
again to sleep. Okay, okay, all right, I'm looking at it

419
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.279
now, devoutly could we wished to
die to sleep? Well? Fuck?

420
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.519
Okay? Uh, the sleep perchance
to dream? I there's the rubber in

421
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.799
that sleep of death? What youans
make up? We have shuffled off this

422
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:30.240
mortal coil. Must make us pause. There's a chance to make the suffering

423
00:28:30.279 --> 00:28:33.880
of their Fuck. Okay, man, I'm doing badly at this. I

424
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.039
thought I remember more. I shouldn't
have made this bet. Yeah, gave

425
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:41.240
us pause. Fuck now I'm reading
this may have shuffle us more, call

426
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.759
me give us pause. There's the
respect that makes calamity of so long life.

427
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:47.200
Okay, here we go. For
who would I'm gonna get for who

428
00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:52.599
would bear the whips and scorns of
time? The the proud Man's to the

429
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:56.559
office. Something about an office.
What's what's in there again? God,

430
00:28:56.599 --> 00:28:59.240
I gotta go back to this.
The pangs of this prize, you know,

431
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:03.039
the oppressives wrong, they're proud.
Man's constably the pangs of his prize

432
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.319
loved. The insolence of office.
Oh God, maybe I should just abandon

433
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.359
ship here. I can't, Man, there's too much pressure now. I

434
00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:12.319
can't find it. I mean,
you're I feel like you're in the first

435
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.519
quarter at least, just like read
out the last bit of an ending,

436
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.720
right is there's not too much left. I don't think I thought I knew

437
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:25.279
it. Something about a bear bodkin
insolence of office in the spurns the patient

438
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:27.960
merit of the unworthy takes when he
himself is quite to make with a bear

439
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:33.359
bodkid wood fardles, bear to grunt
and sweat under a weary life. All

440
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.200
right, I'm stopping this. I'm
aboring. I'm aborting. Well, well

441
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:44.079
glad it wasn't it wasn't you earned
that twenty dollars through efforts. Thank you?

442
00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:48.720
Wow. Thanks. I would never
make it as a hazie and fees

443
00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:52.720
as a hafeez. Yeah, I
would never make it as a feez handlet,

444
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.039
which is. I mean, hey, you did a I feel like

445
00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.480
it's relevant to the fact that,
like memory is sort of f and we

446
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.039
were just talking about that, and
this was something at one point you had

447
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:07.079
memorized and we got a little bit
of a performance there. I love it.

448
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:11.680
I just I just remember, I
just remember shakespeare words in a jumbled

449
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:14.920
order. That's really all I remembered
here. I mean, isn't that what

450
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.119
most of Shakespeare is. I don't
mean to offend a new Shakespeare scholars in

451
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:19.880
the audience, but to our modern
ears, there is a little bit of

452
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.119
a like I look at those first
folios, I'm like, it's hard to

453
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:26.880
believe it's modern English. You know, you might not have been here for

454
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:30.480
this call, but we've had at
least one Foller who is talked about us

455
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.599
about the authenticity of Shakespeare. I
don't think they themselves were a Shakespeare scholar.

456
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.319
I think they taught English or something, but that that was the thing

457
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.480
we That was a conversation we had. Actually maybe that was truth wanted.

458
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:42.920
I don't remember, kind of I'm
going to go ahead and guess that the

459
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.920
argument is that, like, well, we we have less authentication for Shakespeare

460
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.000
or something than we did they were
actually in support. They were saying that

461
00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.519
Shakespeare's they were talking about the you
know, the myriad of conspiracy theories that

462
00:30:56.559 --> 00:31:00.680
are out there about Shakespeare not being
the primary author of his works, which

463
00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:07.960
like care that is it? I
don't know yet, credit where credits due,

464
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.599
Sophia, you know. I mean, Okay, here's the thing.

465
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.440
If I'm going to go ahead and
believe that there isn't a particular like afterlife

466
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:19.279
where somebody's sitting around being like that
all that Shakespeare stuff that was actually mine

467
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.640
and they're still upset about it now
like they're probably I would hope just kind

468
00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.039
of nothing that would be my That
would be my assumption. So I don't

469
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.200
know that they mind anymore. Yeah, I don't know. This is not

470
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:34.160
always the case in every situation,
but in this particular context, I'm not

471
00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:38.000
that worried about whether or not Shakespeare
wrote all of his plays. That is

472
00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:41.599
what I would say. I guess
it's it's like, you know, it's

473
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:45.640
drama, it's stolen valor. It's
a stolen valor story, right, And

474
00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:48.480
it's like, hey, if this
other person actually wrote all Shakespeare's plays,

475
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:52.319
we should look at their works and
consider them really awesomely right. I think

476
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:55.680
that's I think that's why people get
invested in that kind of fare. I

477
00:31:55.759 --> 00:32:00.480
just don't feel like it's impossible for
Shakespeare to have been a genie. Once

478
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:02.200
in a while, they come around, you know, And so I suppose

479
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:07.079
I've never been convinced. Maybe that's
the that's the issue. We have a

480
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:12.279
super chat that came before actually that
I'm just gonna throw out there. Oh

481
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:15.359
yeah, we do. It's from
Siri Lay gave five dollars and said,

482
00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:20.440
without divorce, my mom wouldn't have
left an abusive relationship. Both my girlfriend

483
00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:24.160
and I would still be attached to
abusive and toxic partners, which is definitely

484
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:29.039
a good callback to the intro of
the show, which we talked about no

485
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:34.200
fault and divorce. Shout outs to
social producer Katie for pitching that idea,

486
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:38.480
because it's true. I didn't really
think of divorce as a big deal until

487
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.680
I started getting involved in this activism
stuff, and then I read all the

488
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:46.519
posts from religious folks who are like, no, no, divorce is the

489
00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:52.440
absolute worst thing possible ever, and
you should always, always, always fight

490
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.200
for your marriage to never ever ever
get into divorce ever. And I just

491
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:00.880
realized how in saying that is that
is not a good take to have.

492
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:05.960
So yeah, I feel like a
lot of times people will look at divorce

493
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.440
rates and how the outcomes for children
from divorced families are often maybe not as

494
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.000
successful. However, that would be
defined in this instance as those from families

495
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:20.480
that remain married. But I feel
like there's so many possible reasons for why

496
00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:22.720
that would be. Right. Is
it that families that remain married are more

497
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.920
likely to not have abuse or to
have had less financial strain to Like,

498
00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:35.400
there's reasons why people remain married,
and those can contribute to more positive outcomes

499
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:38.079
for children. It's not necessarily the
divorce itself. So when we try to

500
00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:42.559
make this argument based on like,
divorce is bad because here's look what happens

501
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.680
to kids from divorced families, that's
not really a cogent argument, I would

502
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:50.759
say. I also, so this
was sort of interesting. I lived in

503
00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.160
the Philippines for a bit, and
divorce is very hard to get there,

504
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:57.880
and so I can't speak for the
whole of the Philippines, which is just

505
00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:01.559
people that I personally knew, but
it wasn't that uncommon in my experience for

506
00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:06.319
folks to just have been separated for
twenty years, have fully moved on with

507
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:09.320
other partners that they live with,
that they functionally have a marriage like relationship

508
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:14.400
with, but they never got divorced
because that was difficult, you know,

509
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.199
legally, And so I feel like
if you removed things like no fault divorce,

510
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:21.239
not only would you end up with
people trapped in dangerous situations, but

511
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:23.679
it wouldn't necessarily mean what folks think
it would mean. It doesn't mean people

512
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:28.440
actually stay together. It just means
that you still have a legally binding contract

513
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:32.840
saying that you're married. You have
a legally binding unhappiness at best, right,

514
00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.719
And I get it, right,
I want kids to grow up in

515
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:44.159
the best situation possible. But if
a kid, like if a marriage is

516
00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:47.599
worthy of a divorce, that growing
up situation is not going to be better,

517
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:52.519
much better than at least a healthy
divorce, right, And there are

518
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:55.000
healthy divorces. I think I think
there are ways you can do it and

519
00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:00.639
absolutely have a kid be just fine. Right, But you know, obviously

520
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:05.199
that still takes communication, right,
That still takes absolutely something well. And

521
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:10.039
I think it's interesting when we pair
the idea of women initiating moost divorces with

522
00:35:10.559 --> 00:35:15.639
the idea that no fault divorce is
bad. Kind of what we're effectively saying

523
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:20.639
is that it's bad for women to
be able to initiate divorce because there's sort

524
00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:23.400
of this assumption that there's no cause
there or that that increases divorce rates.

525
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:28.079
And yeah, it probably does.
Women being able to leave does increase divorce

526
00:35:28.199 --> 00:35:30.760
rates full stop. But I do
have to wonder about the men in those

527
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:35.000
relationships, like who has tried,
how long has it been tried? What?

528
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.920
And trying look like I also feel
like, yeah, anyway, sorry,

529
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:42.079
it's just interesting to think about,
Like there's so many things happening in

530
00:35:42.119 --> 00:35:47.079
a relationship that it's really difficult to
legislate around what is the healthiest environment for

531
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:51.360
not only children, but the adults
in that relationship? Too? True?

532
00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:54.079
True? Yeah, there was you
know, I just I just recently got

533
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:00.920
engaged, and there was a question
of, like, should do I even

534
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.599
want to be married because of the
vassle that comes with it. First of

535
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.199
all, I love my fiance and
I do want to marry her, but

536
00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.960
like, do I want the state
to recognize that? Like that's that was

537
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:14.039
like a kind of a mini conversation
I had in my own head, and

538
00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:19.039
I guess for for for you know, for most legal purposes, it is

539
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.320
in my benefit to do so,
and you know, I'll just go ahead

540
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:23.519
and do it. But like,
I really got to be thinking about how,

541
00:36:23.719 --> 00:36:29.320
just like God, how institutionalized we've
kind of made this sort of relationship

542
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.519
and just all the consequences that come
up that I don't know. There's also

543
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:37.960
so we've also talked about this too, about me possibly changing my last name,

544
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:40.280
uh, or both of them changing
either both of our last names to

545
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:45.320
something else, or me changing my
last name to her last name. And

546
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:47.840
I've looked up a lot of stories
about dudes trying to do that and how

547
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:52.719
like the irs towns them and stuff
because they think they're like trying to lie

548
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:57.159
on their tax documents and stuff,
and then like people give them weird looks

549
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:59.880
and stuff or ask all these opera
questions. It's just like, yeah,

550
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:02.679
we we have all these traditions wrapped
up with this thing too that just make

551
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:06.199
this whole thing complicated. I don't
know, I don't know, been thinking

552
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:09.360
about all that stuff lately too.
Yeah, I think that you also bring

553
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:13.920
up a really excellent point that there's
so much to marriage already that more and

554
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.000
more folks are postponing marriage or not
getting married and just continuing to stay together

555
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:23.599
anyway. Long term cohabitation is extremely
common, and a lot of folks treat

556
00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:27.639
that they might even have a marriage
ceremony and not sign the paperwork and sended

557
00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:30.440
in because they just don't want the
government involved in that. Folks who are

558
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.760
against no fault divorce, I don't
think may realize that that just means a

559
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.400
lot fewer people are going to choose
to get married. I would have had

560
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:42.360
a lot more hesitance around getting married
if it meant that this would be impossible

561
00:37:42.440 --> 00:37:45.199
to get out of. I think
that I'm more likely to get married knowing

562
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:50.079
that I have no intention of divorcing
my partner. These wonderful, great,

563
00:37:50.239 --> 00:37:52.760
awesome double thumbs up. Yeah,
but if I knew that I was trapped

564
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:59.119
forever, then I would be less
likely to get married at all. Yeah,

565
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.119
Yeah, I think that's fair,
folks. I think we might have

566
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:05.119
another call coming in here, But
we do have open lines at the moment,

567
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:07.840
so if you want to call in, you definitely should. The number

568
00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:09.800
is right there on the screen and
for watching, but in case you're just

569
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:15.320
listening, it's five one two nine
to nine to one nine two four two

570
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:20.239
or go to that little link link
linky dodo in the description as I'm going

571
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.119
to call it just now and calling
through your computer if you don't feel like

572
00:38:22.320 --> 00:38:24.719
using your phone, because I get
it. You know, there's a lot,

573
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:29.400
a lot of reasons why not to
do that. Gosh, there's nothing

574
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:32.000
about the Shakespeare thing I was going
to mention earlier, but now I can't.

575
00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:35.360
I can't remember what it was about. Oh, okay, so the

576
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:37.480
so the story of the shake.
Okay, there's another element that Shakespeare story

577
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:40.119
I was going to talk to you
about, because when I had to memorize

578
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:45.519
the Shakespeare thing, I think I
like missed a day of school or something.

579
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:47.239
It was the day I was supposed
to like present to the class that

580
00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:50.920
I've memorized this thing and get graded
points on it. By the way,

581
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.079
what what how was that beneficial?
I don't know. I don't know why

582
00:38:53.199 --> 00:38:57.199
that wasn't a good time. Why
couldn't I learn how to like do tax

583
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.000
taxes or something. I love a
metrical reading. When I was an English

584
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:04.679
teacher for a time, I thought
it was cool of kids because they would

585
00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:07.159
practice reading. But then they performed
the reading and not have to memorize.

586
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:12.480
I felt was okay anyway, sorry
anyway, So I had to do it

587
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.960
in front of the teacher, not
in front of the students with like another

588
00:39:15.079 --> 00:39:17.480
girl. I think I think we
were oh, I think we were both

589
00:39:17.480 --> 00:39:21.760
in the school orchestra, and I
think we had missed we had that's what

590
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:22.760
it was. I think we missed
it trip we had to go on.

591
00:39:23.079 --> 00:39:25.119
We had to go on a trip
for school, and we had to do

592
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:28.400
the next day. And so we
actually did it in front of her at

593
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:31.519
the same time. And I remember
like just kind of low key like following

594
00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:36.000
along with her because like I knew, like that's funny some of the words,

595
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.800
and I was just like, ah, yeah, the insolence of law

596
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:44.679
that, Like I was like kind
of doing their really confidently. I remember

597
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:47.599
passing, but I was just like
I don't think I deserved that passenger.

598
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:51.519
I actually think I probably wouldn't have
done as well. So that you all

599
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:53.599
had to memorize the same thing too, like not at least make it,

600
00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:57.280
you know, expose kids to more. Anyway, never mind, Sorry,

601
00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:00.360
I don't need to criticize your teacher
from decades ago and be like why did

602
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.519
it? Yeah, talk about our
school upbringing. But anyway, I'm sure

603
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.559
you had to do some memorizing stuff
your theater. I did, but I

604
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:12.760
also did it on my own for
fun. When I would be bored in

605
00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:15.519
other classes, I would start memorizing, like poems and things like that because

606
00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:21.599
I'm a monster, and so that
was I can I can give you some

607
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:24.360
sonnets. I don't have to do
that, actually, because we do have

608
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:31.719
a caller in you right now,
wet In from Texas. Mind liney,

609
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:37.199
you are alive on talkithen? What's
up? Hello the lady and Gentlespoon.

610
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:44.840
I just thought I just started calling
with my thoughts on divorce because I'm bidden

611
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:52.360
through and as a person who's entry
and stay in this country was predicated on

612
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:59.199
my marriage, and that I believe
is almost entirely arbitrary, it seems these

613
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:02.599
days now. I wasn't doing a
Richard gear. I wasn't coming in just

614
00:41:02.679 --> 00:41:07.079
to get a green card. I
very much loved my ex wife at the

615
00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.519
time, truly, truly, I'm
blind. Libby, you're telling me that

616
00:41:09.599 --> 00:41:13.760
you weren't born in America. I'm
just kidding, that'd be funny. I

617
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:17.159
was like, really serious about it. My dad was not me but anyway,

618
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:22.199
But the thing is is that we
have to go through all these hoops.

619
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:23.119
I had to get all these visas
and shit, and we had to

620
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:27.480
get married. When we came in
it was a very simple ceremony. It

621
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.559
wasn't even a ceremony. We went
to a courthouse in Williamson County, Texas.

622
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:36.000
We wore jeans and matching T shirts. And the thing is is that

623
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:42.000
it was so very arbitrary, seemed
it was just legal motions we had to

624
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:46.320
go through and the spirit of the
marriage quote unquote really was just our efforts

625
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:50.880
to want to be together. And
then when it all fell apart at the

626
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:57.760
end, she divorced me before my
paperwork was complete to stay and that absolutely

627
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.000
wigged me out completely. I was
stressed for almost a year, expecting the

628
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:04.599
sword of damacles to fall. They
go, oh, you're not married anymore,

629
00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:07.440
to get the fuck out of the
country. But no, I when,

630
00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:08.159
yeah, I know, this happens
all the time. You know,

631
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.880
it seems like you're in on you
know, on good faith, and my

632
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:16.239
evidence was good, but it wasn't
amazing. Some photos and some evidence we've

633
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:20.679
gone on a holiday together and a
copy of our shared lease and that was

634
00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:23.239
about it, really, and you
had a wait. I didn't know this.

635
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:28.079
As a part of the process,
you literally had to share vacation photos

636
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:31.199
and stuff. You have to you
have to compile the dossier of proof to

637
00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:36.800
show that your marriage is legitimate.
Yeah. Wow, the best invasive.

638
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:42.199
I don't want. I don't want
to show President Biden pictures of me and

639
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:45.320
my honey on vacation. I would
say, you know, go away,

640
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:52.239
mister Biden. When this was blendlimy. So the timeline of events very quickly

641
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:58.679
is first met online my two b
wife in twenty ten, caught it up

642
00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:01.159
until twenty fifteen. She proposed to
me. Twenty sixteen, I moved to

643
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:07.800
Texas. We got married in April. April first actually, so what would

644
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:10.920
have been my eighth wedding anniversary was
just passed. And then you apply for

645
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:17.079
a green card and it's limited to
two years predicated on your marriage, and

646
00:43:17.119 --> 00:43:21.280
then you apply to have that restriction
lifted, and then they give it to

647
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:24.519
you for ten years. Now.
It took the USCIS, the immigration people,

648
00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:29.840
nearly two years to process my paperwork, and by that time the marriage

649
00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:37.519
had completely fallen apart. I had
been cookholded that's another story. And she'd

650
00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:43.519
divorced me and moved down and so
I spent seven months in twenty twenty utterly

651
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:46.639
stressed because I thought I'd go to
this appointment that I was supposed to attend

652
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:51.320
my wife alone in San Antonio,
and they would kick me out of the

653
00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:52.639
country. But they didn't. I
went, well, yeah, you had

654
00:43:53.000 --> 00:43:57.920
you had your pace dubs were going
into her bank account, and you had

655
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:01.880
a lease together, and and here
are some photos of you on holiday and

656
00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:07.000
they still seems legitimate. He's ten
year green cards, ten minutes, seven

657
00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:09.679
months rest for ten minutes. So
I went through something very Oh sorry,

658
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:14.199
go ahead. So to my point, it seems like such an arbitrary set

659
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:19.119
of legal loops loopholm has very little
to do with the actual spirit of two

660
00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:22.119
people joined together as one unit.
Yeah. Absolutely, I went through my

661
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:28.960
husband's Australia and so we went through
something very similar recently. And it's for

662
00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:31.679
a long time. He had to
go to Canada every two years to go

663
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:36.039
to a consulate so they could renew
his visa there, and then they would

664
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:37.159
have to send it back because he
was on a work visa. And it's

665
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:40.639
kind of all these like really specific
things, even though at that time we

666
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:47.119
were already married and there is so
much legal stuff around it that it does,

667
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:52.199
I completely agree, feel very arbitrary. I was like, pregnant.

668
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:58.159
We put in our in our dossier, like the first ultrasound pictures because we

669
00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:01.440
still hadn't gotten the green card yet, but anyway, it was Yeah.

670
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.800
We also had the vacation photos in
which I grew progressively fatter, so I

671
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:07.559
was like, see, we've been
together a while, time has passed.

672
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.719
I don't like that. I don't
like that. I don't like that you

673
00:45:12.760 --> 00:45:15.400
have to show your whole I mean, I get the rationale, right,

674
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:19.239
but like, I don't think it
should be a big deal in the first

675
00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:22.320
place. I'm this, this is
outside the politics of the show. I

676
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:24.840
should you get into it. I'm
an open borders kind of guy, to

677
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:28.800
be honest, I'm more into that
side of the camp. I don't think

678
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:32.840
you should have to demonstrate that you're
that you really really like an Americans so

679
00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.679
you get to live here like that. That to me just doesn't doesn't compute.

680
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:38.440
I don't think that's a good reason
to be like, oh, I

681
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:43.119
got yeah, that's this American likes
you a lot. I guess that means

682
00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:45.760
you can live in our country now, Like that doesn't really make a lot

683
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.280
of sense to me, But anyway, I'm glad you're I'm glad you're here

684
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:52.239
still blind lommy, I'm glad they
didn't pick you back over the pond.

685
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:57.360
You know, who knows knows what
it could have happened to you in the

686
00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:01.519
savage lands of England. I mean, goodness, anything is possible, you

687
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:06.920
know, apocalypse probably, probably.
But then there's the other end, there's

688
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.239
the other end of the spectrum.
And I am also an example of this

689
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:15.079
because the certain denominations that hold the
marriage, the ceremony of marriage, the

690
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:22.960
institution of marriage is this like unassailable
sanctified thing. Catholics very specific. But

691
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:28.360
because religion, especially in this country
is treated with such kid gloves, you

692
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:32.119
can basically marry on very little credentials. I am an ordained minister. I

693
00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:36.039
don't believe in any God, but
I'm part of I'm a urinitarian minister.

694
00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:39.840
I feel that a form it was
free online legally marry people in the state

695
00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:46.679
of Texas. That's how sanctify sanctified, this vaunted establishment of marriages. They'll

696
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:52.400
even let a chad like me do
it. So should we call you Reverend

697
00:46:52.480 --> 00:47:04.440
Blindling? Now? No father,
just me daddy anyway. But this is

698
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:07.119
the thing. So I put a
challenge out to all the feasts out there,

699
00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.320
and all the people who feel that
marriage is special and sacred and wonderful

700
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:16.880
because of some external ordainment rather than
intrinsic togetherness, prove that there's something more

701
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:22.840
to it than just arbitrary bollocks.
Because Dan and his missus, I think,

702
00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:25.559
are going to be together forever,
not because of marriage or because of

703
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:29.760
legality, or because of God,
or because of any old bollocks from the

704
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.360
outside. It's just because they are
wanting to be together and that's how it

705
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:37.280
should be. And there's no internal
crap that's going to affect that, in

706
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:42.039
my opinion. But who am I
to say? I'm a divorcee. Sometimes

707
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:45.159
the best true true. Thank you, Thank you for the kind words,

708
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:49.360
Flying Lowry. Gosh, that'd be
really awkward if we end up not working

709
00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:52.199
out. But I think you're I
think it's gonna be. I think we're

710
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:55.239
good. But no, yeah,
I agree with everything you said. You

711
00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:58.800
know. One of the funniest things
too, is yeah, go ahead,

712
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:02.800
Well sorry, I missed that.
What was thathip oh, thank you beautiful

713
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:12.599
relationship? Maybe waves no that whenever, you know, when gay marriage was

714
00:48:12.639 --> 00:48:16.880
finally legal for everybody in the US, that was a counter argument that people

715
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:21.519
were talking about when that was still
an issue was, well, it'll devalue

716
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:25.400
marriage if the gays can do it, basically was the argument, right,

717
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:30.440
Like, marriage is supposed to be
the supermagic institution that only only straight people

718
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:34.320
can have, and if the gays
do it, well, it's not as

719
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:37.519
special anymore, which is like to
your point, like you could just marry

720
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:44.360
anybody whatever. It doesn't Yeah.
Also, child marriage is still largely legal.

721
00:48:44.679 --> 00:48:47.960
You know that's also true. That's
like, if it's that special and

722
00:48:49.039 --> 00:48:51.719
we need to keep it special,
then let's just all agree to keep it

723
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:54.239
above eighteen. Like you know,
it's like, nah, fourteen year olds

724
00:48:54.239 --> 00:48:57.880
can get married with parental consent.
It's fine. I'm like, you know

725
00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:01.079
what would devalue my marriage is watching
a middle school or get married right next

726
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:08.679
to me, Like, I don't
know, piece marriage aint specialism, institution,

727
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:14.559
marriage aint ordained by God. The
union of two people is special,

728
00:49:14.599 --> 00:49:17.039
but you don't have to go through
a bunch of loopholes to make it so

729
00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:23.559
that's that's all. That spent a
couple of days full on in training for

730
00:49:23.679 --> 00:49:28.039
marriage therapy very specifically, so my
brain is very in that right now a

731
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:32.440
couple's therapy specifically not marriage therapy,
so could apply anywhere, and so much

732
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.880
I feel like of the biblical advice
for relationships is sort of contraindicated for actually

733
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:44.480
having a loving and lasting relationship.
The notion of submission on the part of

734
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:51.360
one party is absolutely not helpful.
The idea that there needs to be a

735
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:59.119
leader full stop is again absolutely not
helpful, even amongst couples who are religious,

736
00:49:59.159 --> 00:50:02.679
Like it's about perspective taking and taking
your share of conflict and things like

737
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:06.880
that, which are I feel like
is often not at not what is actually

738
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:09.280
preached. Sorry, I just hit
my table, and so yeah, it's

739
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:13.599
interesting to think about it as the
sacred thing when the past two days I've

740
00:50:13.599 --> 00:50:15.519
been steeped in like kind of the
science of it, Like here are the

741
00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:21.440
ways that we can interact that have
been shown to be successful versus less successful,

742
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:24.519
and how do you recover from those
things? There's a science to it,

743
00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:28.760
just like anything. Here's another thing
too, A lot of people say,

744
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:30.800
actually, I'll go ahead and let
you go first. Thank you,

745
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:32.920
Blind Lbe. We really appreciate you
calling in. I will keep you on

746
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:37.559
the phone forever, but thank you. This is better with you in it.

747
00:50:37.880 --> 00:50:40.280
Yes, I endorsed that. Thank
you so much, Blind Libby.

748
00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:45.159
Yeah. What I was going to
add too is just uh, oh gosh,

749
00:50:45.159 --> 00:50:46.599
what was I about to say?
Wow? I forgot Oh no,

750
00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:50.159
okay, So you know, as
an atheist, right, people first of

751
00:50:50.199 --> 00:50:53.119
all make the very wrong assumption and
say, well, isn't marriage a Christian

752
00:50:53.119 --> 00:50:55.960
institution? Why do you want to
take part in marriage? As if people

753
00:50:57.000 --> 00:51:00.119
weren't getting married before Christianity or Judaism
was the thing. But you know the

754
00:51:00.559 --> 00:51:05.480
fact that I don't believe there's an
afterlife, or the fact that I could

755
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:07.280
do whatever I want with my life, I could, you know, be

756
00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:12.599
as promiscuous as I want to,
or have as many long term relationships with

757
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:15.000
people and not get married as I
want to. But I am still choosing

758
00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:20.280
to get married because I love this
person and I want to be with this

759
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.159
person. If anything, that should
make the marriage like even better because I

760
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:30.519
have to because a religion says,
well, this is how you could responsibly

761
00:51:30.599 --> 00:51:35.519
pursue a relationship. Now. Granted, actually there's very good evidence a lot

762
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:38.719
of points in the Bible where Paul
specifically says people shouldn't get married at all,

763
00:51:39.559 --> 00:51:45.000
which no Christian ever follows outside of
monks, I guess. But outside

764
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:47.480
of that, for everyone else,
I do get married, and not to

765
00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:52.199
contain my lusts or whatever, as
like Paul puts it. But no,

766
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:54.920
because I do love this person and
I do want to be with them,

767
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:58.400
and I can do that. If
anything, again, I think it makes

768
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:01.400
the marriage I don't know, even
more important. I guess, yeah,

769
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:06.440
well, because when it comes to
there's going to be some of my couple's

770
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.559
therapy training was going to come out. Hence I floofed my hair for some

771
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:13.639
reason. That's me giving a presentation. I guess when it comes to any

772
00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:16.440
ritual in the life of a couple, it is more effective. It matters

773
00:52:16.440 --> 00:52:20.320
more when you've agreed about what it
means to you. So if you're told

774
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:23.559
by some third party, external source
that this thing is important and you do

775
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:27.599
it for that reason, that can
be any ritual, like you know,

776
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:30.559
buying someone flowers on Valentine's Day,
If you do it because you're supposed to

777
00:52:30.679 --> 00:52:36.079
because culture says so it isn't as
meaningful, it isn't as powerful. And

778
00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:39.480
that's sort of been born out by
research that having a ritual can be absolutely

779
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:43.440
very important, but you need to
agree on what it means. And so

780
00:52:43.800 --> 00:52:46.199
with my relationship, just as an
example, we didn't necessarily agree on the

781
00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:51.320
concept of marriage from the beginning.
We talked a lot about it and talked

782
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:53.159
a lot about what it meant to
both of us as individuals and then us

783
00:52:53.199 --> 00:53:00.639
collectively before we actually decided to be
married. That may that gives it so

784
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:02.679
much more power. And so I
sort of love the way that you're talking

785
00:53:02.679 --> 00:53:07.159
about it because it means that there
was some level of agreement and exploration is

786
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:09.440
too. If you want to enter
into this because you actually thought about what

787
00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:14.079
it meant in your specific situation,
you know. Yeah, yeah, I

788
00:53:14.119 --> 00:53:17.760
one hundred percent agree on that.
And Sophia, we have another call and

789
00:53:17.840 --> 00:53:22.679
wants to talk to us. We
have Delen, who's calling in from Virginia.

790
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.639
Dalen, you are live on talk
key than what's going on? Yeah,

791
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:30.039
uh so I wanted to call in. I am an atheist and uh

792
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:36.599
I agree with with having people come
into our country and stuff if they want

793
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:40.800
to. And I heard you say
you agree with this concept of open borders.

794
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.119
I wanted to ask if you elaborate
a little bit more on that,

795
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:50.360
what that means, what that would
look like, how you protect immigrants from,

796
00:53:50.679 --> 00:53:54.280
you know, being underpaid or not
being treated equally. How do you

797
00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:58.280
how do you go about those type
of things. Okay, sure, I

798
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:00.199
can give my take. I will
say this. This is not my expert.

799
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:04.559
I'm not. They don't let me
on talk Heithan to talk politics.

800
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:07.480
They let me on talk Eithan to
talk religious stuff mostly, so let me

801
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:09.440
give that caveat first of all.
Okay, so this is not I'm not

802
00:54:09.559 --> 00:54:13.639
used to talking about this on the
Collins Show format, but in short,

803
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:17.159
because I do think it does tie
in to some concepts in this show,

804
00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:21.239
and I can get to that.
But but but I was first introduced to

805
00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:24.599
this from a book from Brian Kaplan
and he did it with this guy.

806
00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:29.519
Can't remember the other author's name,
but the book is called Open Borders,

807
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:32.920
and I'm googling right now. Open
Borders the Science and Ethics of Immigration is

808
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:37.960
what is what first turned me onto
this concept. Okay, so you know

809
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:42.840
I'm born in the US and that
gives me some legal rights and limitations on

810
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:45.519
where I can go. If I
was born in Malta, my life,

811
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:51.719
my opportunities will be completely different than
what's afforded to me in you know,

812
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:54.559
the country that I was born in. And so on some level there's you

813
00:54:54.599 --> 00:54:58.559
know, if you if you take
into account the veil of ignorance, right,

814
00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:01.360
if we were able to you know, not be able to know where

815
00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:06.360
our circumstances would be when we were
born and we had the choice to pick

816
00:55:06.360 --> 00:55:07.480
it, we and of course,
well a lot of us would want to

817
00:55:07.519 --> 00:55:12.599
be born into you know, like
first World countries, right because like of

818
00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:15.320
of what's been given to us,
barring anything else, right without without knowledge

819
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:21.199
of anything else. And so there
is inherently economic advantages and disadvantages for where

820
00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:23.079
you're born. I'd like to try
to mitigate that as much as possible.

821
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:27.119
I think open borders presents this kind
of idea. You mentioned this example.

822
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:31.440
I've worked for companies in the past
that have outsourced labor to places like India,

823
00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:35.719
places where they actually get the same
level of training that I do,

824
00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.800
but they get to pay them lower
wages, which again are better for most

825
00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:43.360
folks that are living in India,
but you know, are just taking advantage

826
00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:46.280
of an economy that's just isn't the
same as the US. There there's I

827
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:50.320
feel like those people should be getting
the same amount of pay that I get

828
00:55:50.440 --> 00:55:52.079
because we're getting the same level of
work, but they get it relative to

829
00:55:52.119 --> 00:55:58.519
their geography versus relative to their level
of capability, which I just think is

830
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:04.079
philosophically wrongs. So Open Borders kind
of proposed this idea about basically open economic

831
00:56:04.840 --> 00:56:09.360
borders between between different countries to be
able to have more accessibility for opportunities.

832
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:15.039
I think it would raise levels of
poverty across the world. I think it

833
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.960
would give people, you know,
more access to better kinds of work than

834
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:22.239
what is often offered in the places
which they're bore, and so like that's

835
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:25.360
that's kind of what makes me,
you know, interested in pursuant of that

836
00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:30.559
kind of policy. How that plays
into citizenship that might be a bit of

837
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:32.679
a different conversation, And to be
honest, I don't know the full answers

838
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:37.679
to that, But in terms of
like employment, yeah, I'm totally open

839
00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:40.679
borders. I don't really see how
you know, like I said, Blindlimy

840
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:45.960
just liked an American that's that's what
he did. That's what he earned to

841
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.119
be here. He didn't have to
like memorize the Constitution. He didn't have

842
00:56:50.280 --> 00:56:52.760
to you know, be born in
a hospital here like I did. Like

843
00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:57.000
he he had to go through a
whole bunch of paperwork and stuff that I

844
00:56:57.119 --> 00:56:59.599
just didn't have to do, you
know, just to be in the country

845
00:56:59.599 --> 00:57:01.880
that he will want to be in. And and and I I just want

846
00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:05.519
to try to, you know,
equalize that as much as I can,

847
00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:07.960
because I just think that's ridiculous.
So anyway, that's my take on that

848
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:12.639
daily did I answer? I just
want to make sure I did I answer

849
00:57:12.679 --> 00:57:15.960
your questions so far, because I
talked a lot there. Uh, yeah,

850
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:20.199
I think you did. If I'm
understanding you correctly, your your view

851
00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:25.440
is less about citizenship and more about
an economics where people would get paid equally

852
00:57:25.559 --> 00:57:29.800
for equal work. Am I understanding
you correctly? Yeah? I mean that's

853
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:31.440
what I'm mostly interested in. I
mean, obviously, I think I think

854
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:35.480
I think, first of all,
fucking anybody should become USS and if they

855
00:57:35.519 --> 00:57:37.719
want to, fucking that's my opinion. I don't really care. I I

856
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:43.920
this country was built on robbing other
people of their fucking land and just saying

857
00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:45.280
yeah, we're here now, so
fuck it. I don't give a shit.

858
00:57:45.320 --> 00:57:49.960
Anybody could be an American fuck you, not you specifically, just I'm

859
00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:52.440
fucking the general population. That's that's
what I mean when I say that,

860
00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:58.440
you know, out of context and
anyway, Yeah, citizens just bullshit,

861
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:00.800
I think for for the most part. But in terms of American citizens,

862
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:05.000
yeah, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't do anything to earn this.

863
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:07.880
I did nothing. I got I
got a paper given to me when

864
00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:13.119
I was born that says, congratulations, you get to be better off than

865
00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:16.719
most of the world because your parents
lived here. Right, That's I think

866
00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:21.320
that's stupid. Uh. You know, I think I agree with everything you

867
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:23.119
said there, Dan. I would
also say that it's possible. I'm a

868
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:27.119
little bit more aspirational in my idea
of like what it means to be American.

869
00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:29.760
Like I see what it's been,
and I'm like, but it could

870
00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:31.239
be. You know, this is
such amazing, this amazing thing, right.

871
00:58:31.280 --> 00:58:37.360
I I sometimes about to like reclaim
patriotism from folks who I think are

872
00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:39.800
are deeply corrupt in their impression of
it. And I look at it and

873
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:45.119
say that that so many of the
folks who believe the most in what the

874
00:58:45.199 --> 00:58:49.719
promise could be of America are immigrants. And you know, God bless America.

875
00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:52.800
I was written by an immigrant,
so like, we have such a

876
00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:59.000
storied history, and it's like people
who become late in life atheists or latent

877
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:01.920
light Catholics, they I'm very like
passionate about that new thing that they are.

878
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:05.920
I think we're only really made better
by it. I think that that's

879
00:59:05.960 --> 00:59:08.199
born out again and again by evidence. And it's not because it's like there's

880
00:59:08.199 --> 00:59:12.199
a lot of paperwork to become an
American and so you're really proud of it

881
00:59:12.199 --> 00:59:14.920
now because you finished all the paperwork, And that's really what it means.

882
00:59:15.679 --> 00:59:20.079
It's because there is there can be
anyway an American ideal. And I think

883
00:59:20.119 --> 00:59:22.079
that a lot of the folks who
are born here and get really nativist about

884
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:28.280
it are completely missing what I find
value in. I would also point out,

885
00:59:28.320 --> 00:59:32.159
like when I am also fairly radically
open border that for me it would

886
00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:37.400
also mean things like, you know, thinking about how to have people be

887
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:40.800
able to come and work here and
then also go home again. But while

888
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:46.079
they're here, they are spending money
in our economy and making our economy better,

889
00:59:46.599 --> 00:59:51.119
making the communities that they live in
possibly better and more functional. And

890
00:59:51.159 --> 00:59:55.199
whenever we end up talking about like
stealing American jobs, not gonna lie.

891
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:59.440
My husband was that guy. He
moved here from Australia because we couldn't find

892
00:59:59.519 --> 01:00:02.280
enough people to fill tech positions in
the Seattle area and there weren't enough people

893
01:00:02.320 --> 01:00:06.960
who lived in the Seattle area to
do so. Right now, there's legislation

894
01:00:07.039 --> 01:00:09.920
that says that he has to be
paid more than an American worker, And

895
01:00:09.960 --> 01:00:15.079
the idea behind that is that it's
supposed to discourage the hiring of foreign workers,

896
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:17.519
which doesn't really happen because there were
not people to fill those jobs here

897
01:00:17.519 --> 01:00:21.159
anyway. And so I would look
at it and just say, like,

898
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:25.480
we have things that we can do
in our education system in terms of like

899
01:00:25.679 --> 01:00:29.880
availability of jobs in the United States
that we can you know, if we're

900
01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:35.760
worried about having enough jobs to go
around for folks who are born here,

901
01:00:36.199 --> 01:00:38.719
we have solutions, we're just not
enacting them. And so when I look

902
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:42.360
at it, I'm like, why
would we pretend that this is going to

903
01:00:42.440 --> 01:00:44.599
help, you know, I think
whenever we get to the core of it,

904
01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:49.079
it's the same old nativist talking points
for closed borders or for restriction that

905
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:52.559
we've always had, Like if you
look back historically, it's always based on

906
01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:58.480
penophobia. It's always based on a
misunderstanding of how economics actually works. And

907
01:00:59.320 --> 01:01:01.280
yeah, that it is like,
you know, pointless, I moved to

908
01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:05.840
Texas late in life comparatively, and
yet I'm still like, you know what,

909
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:07.679
I'm going to make this a place
that I can make better. Why

910
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:10.760
would we not want that? Yeah, yeah, that's true. And I

911
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:15.800
mean my concern isn't really about American
jobs or any of that. It's more

912
01:01:15.920 --> 01:01:20.199
like, you know, being a
citizen gives you protection under you know,

913
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:25.000
workforce the like basically I can't remember
is it Workforce Services or whoever it is

914
01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:29.639
that comes in and dictates like how
a human being can be treated in the

915
01:01:29.679 --> 01:01:35.719
workplace and stuff like if you're not
a citizen, then companies can companies can

916
01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:39.840
like pay you twenty five cents or
mistreat you. And there's no protection for

917
01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:44.719
an immigrant who is just trying to
make an honest living, you know,

918
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:46.719
like that, I guess that's where
my concern is. Does that make sense?

919
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:51.440
Yeah, Well, and there aren't
really protections for undocumented immigrants which is

920
01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:54.320
why I think an open border idea
is that there would be fewer undocumented people

921
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:58.440
and more people could come in legally, so more people would be extended those

922
01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:02.159
protections simply by by the government knowing
they're here and therefore being able to enforce

923
01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:06.679
those protections. That would be my
take. I don't know what are your

924
01:02:06.679 --> 01:02:10.480
thoughts in Yeah, I again like, I don't care again if it when

925
01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:14.440
I've went brought up the example earlier, I'm in the same boat as you,

926
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:16.000
Dalen. I don't care that an
Indian person is taking my job.

927
01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:20.239
That's I care that they're not getting
paid the same that I am. They

928
01:02:20.280 --> 01:02:22.920
should get paid the same that I
am relative to my position, because they're

929
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:27.320
doing the same kind of work.
So yeah, I think that comes down

930
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:32.079
to we have a privileging of American
citizenship almost compared to other people doing that

931
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:37.360
kind of work. In my ideal
world, people could be able to locate

932
01:02:37.760 --> 01:02:43.360
or do work in other countries without
any restrictions whatsoever, and if that would,

933
01:02:43.440 --> 01:02:47.119
in my opinion, open up the
competitiveness that we could have of work.

934
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:50.519
The fact that we do have laws
that say, hey, you can't

935
01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:52.559
treat American workers this way. Oh, but you can treat people in these

936
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:55.280
other countries. Yeah, fuck it, Like that's the problem right there.

937
01:02:55.639 --> 01:03:00.159
Maybe we shouldn't have special treatment for
that. Maybe if we want to be

938
01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:02.800
a true capitalist nation, we say, hey, the folks over here are

939
01:03:02.800 --> 01:03:07.360
doing really good work, we should
get them in instead of I don't know.

940
01:03:07.119 --> 01:03:10.840
Again, this is I'm not a
scholar on this. This isn't what

941
01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:15.800
I normally talk about, but this
is just my own thoughts. You know,

942
01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:19.719
well, I appreciate it, and
I'll read that book Open Borders,

943
01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:24.679
Science of Immigration and take a look
at what his argument is. So yeah,

944
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:29.880
pretty interesting. Again, it's it's
the biggest thing I came about,

945
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:36.559
was you know, it would enhance
overall world economy if if, if all

946
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:39.239
countries were able to produce an open
borders policy like this. You know,

947
01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:43.119
there's this idea that, oh,
some countries have benefited from others if this

948
01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:45.559
was But his argument is actually the
opposite that it would, you know,

949
01:03:46.239 --> 01:03:49.400
you know, bring up will poverty. But again, this is me just

950
01:03:49.719 --> 01:03:52.480
I'm a guy who just read a
book and is just parroting stuff from a

951
01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:54.320
book. That's not my field of
study, that's not my expertise. So

952
01:03:54.760 --> 01:03:59.559
I'm just making as many caveats as
I can. So anyway, anything.

953
01:03:59.599 --> 01:04:03.079
Also, most decision makers, I
would be surprised if they'd even write a

954
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:06.800
book. So you know, we
don't just scare yourself too much there,

955
01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:11.760
Bud, I guess, so something
to be said about that anyway, Daily

956
01:04:12.039 --> 01:04:14.320
anything else you want to add before
we let you go. No, I

957
01:04:14.400 --> 01:04:17.440
was just I was just curious because
it was a concept I'd never heard before,

958
01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:20.400
So I was I was just curious. Yeah, for sure, it's

959
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:27.400
definitely not as popular of an idea, I guess because America we don't like

960
01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:31.719
other people. I think, go
real quick. Yes, sorry, not

961
01:04:32.400 --> 01:04:35.559
on that point. That's an important
one. But before you go, Jimmy

962
01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:40.679
Junior is hosting next week and Dylan, he would really like you to call

963
01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:44.719
in when he's hosting, So if
you're available next week to call him to

964
01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:47.400
Talk Heathen. Jimmy Junior, who
will be hosting, would love to talk

965
01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:51.800
to you. Yeah, sure,
you said, it's Jimmy Junior. Yeah,

966
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:57.599
he'll be hosting next week's Talk Heathen. And he apparently commented in messages

967
01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:00.239
you saying he wants to talk to
you. So either you did something really

968
01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:05.320
right or really wrong. That's really
right. I mean, yeah, let's

969
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:12.639
let's hope really right conversation. All
right, thanks so much, Dayly.

970
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:15.199
Let's you go have a good one. Okay. So the other thing I

971
01:05:15.199 --> 01:05:18.400
was going to say about this,
right, So back to my college days,

972
01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:23.599
I remember my communications professor actually showed
us a video of Joel Osteine and

973
01:05:23.679 --> 01:05:29.159
we were supposed to it was for
media. Uh we're talking about like presentations

974
01:05:29.199 --> 01:05:30.800
in media, I guess, and
he and he was using a sermon from

975
01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:34.800
joelos as an example, and he
just he pointed something out that just at

976
01:05:34.840 --> 01:05:39.920
the time just really blew my mind. Maybe it's more of a banal observation

977
01:05:40.159 --> 01:05:43.719
now, but you know, he
showed a shot that was panning the whole

978
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:45.719
church and he said, check out
those flags in the back. You see

979
01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:49.800
you got the American flag and the
Christian flag. And I thought he was

980
01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:51.920
going to make a commentary about the
Christian flag, because you know, there

981
01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:56.159
is a Christian flag that that organizations
to do. And he's like, why

982
01:05:56.199 --> 01:06:01.199
is that American flag there? And
I was like why is that? So

983
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:06.440
in the book White Too Long,
which is written by a Christian but it's

984
01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:12.719
about the history of American Christianity and
how it can overlap a lot with white

985
01:06:12.719 --> 01:06:18.880
supremacy. He talks about how when
there were Biblical scholars who toured the Museum

986
01:06:18.960 --> 01:06:23.440
of the Bible in Washington, d
c. And some loved it, but

987
01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:30.079
some actively pointed out how they made
American history inextricable from Christian history in a

988
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:34.679
way in that museum, and the
owners of Hobby Lobby put a lot of

989
01:06:34.679 --> 01:06:39.880
money into that particular museum, which
I found rather interesting. But it's sort

990
01:06:39.880 --> 01:06:45.719
of this, it's a very narrow
view of even Christianity, and even Christians

991
01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:50.079
in this instance, we're calling out
how the more you make Christianity America first,

992
01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:57.360
the more likely you are to attract
white supremacists and white supremacist arguments because

993
01:06:57.400 --> 01:07:00.920
it does tend to privilege one nation
and their view of the founding of it,

994
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:05.800
and how it actually protects Christianity somehow, which I thought was really interesting.

995
01:07:06.039 --> 01:07:11.000
Yeah, that is really interesting.
Yeah, there's definitely. First of

996
01:07:11.000 --> 01:07:14.519
all, if you grew up in
a conservative evangelical church, or you grew

997
01:07:14.559 --> 01:07:17.440
up around folks that were like that, like I did, they tend to

998
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:23.159
have the same ash feelings about immigrants, which is, in general they don't

999
01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:26.800
like him, or they just talk
about we should keep get getting the good

1000
01:07:26.840 --> 01:07:30.320
ones in, right. There is
this idea that, oh, these immigrants

1001
01:07:30.360 --> 01:07:33.960
have to the ones that work really
hard and you know, really trying the

1002
01:07:34.039 --> 01:07:36.079
system. You know, they should
be able to get it where It's like,

1003
01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:40.159
yeah, dude, I know your
son or whatever, he's not working

1004
01:07:40.199 --> 01:07:42.320
his hardest, but he gets to
live here, you know what I mean.

1005
01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:45.440
It's like, there is this idea
that, oh, if they're going

1006
01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:47.679
to come here, they have to
be the most hardest working. They have

1007
01:07:47.719 --> 01:07:51.400
to be you know, they have
to contribute something economically or else. Their

1008
01:07:51.519 --> 01:07:56.800
value of being here as a person
like isn't worth it, right, and

1009
01:07:56.840 --> 01:08:00.559
it yeah, yeah, you know
it's interesting because I I feel like we

1010
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:02.719
should do super chats and patreons.
But I'm also going to do this quick

1011
01:08:03.639 --> 01:08:10.880
that I do have heritage from the
Mayflower. I have heritage from like early

1012
01:08:10.920 --> 01:08:14.760
founding in Pennsylvania, people who were
Quakers, people who ended up moving to

1013
01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:16.560
the United States because they were politically
active. Actually it kind of got kicked

1014
01:08:16.560 --> 01:08:20.960
out of where they were already from. I know where my ancestors were and

1015
01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:25.560
what they were doing during the Civil
War. I can tell like I have

1016
01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:30.640
a very strong and very long heritage
of people who lived in America, and

1017
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:40.680
I absolutely look at my family of
Ruffians and sometimes agitators, and they have

1018
01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:44.520
not always been right, and they
have not always contributed to anything economically,

1019
01:08:45.000 --> 01:08:49.279
and I would find it absolutely ridiculous
if I were to then gatekeep this idea

1020
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:54.479
of what it means to be American
when also I can tell you that the

1021
01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:58.680
folks of the Mayflower, they didn't
fell any paperwork, just showed up.

1022
01:08:59.279 --> 01:09:01.600
And so I look at it and
I'm like, my, apparently some of

1023
01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:04.439
my family, and this was actually
some of the Christian part of the family.

1024
01:09:04.479 --> 01:09:06.960
They didn't want to be part of
a United Germany, and so they

1025
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:10.800
moved to Oklahoma. And I'm like, how does that? I mean?

1026
01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:14.199
I would like to think eventually that
benefited of Oklahoma, I guess just because

1027
01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:17.359
of my own personal family pride.
But again, I don't think they've really

1028
01:09:17.359 --> 01:09:21.039
filled out much. They just kind
of showed up and we're like, let's

1029
01:09:21.079 --> 01:09:25.960
have a farm in one of the
hardest places to farm around. Definitely not

1030
01:09:26.119 --> 01:09:29.640
overforming this land like everyone else has
already been doing. So I don't know,

1031
01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:31.439
it would just be so insane to
I've heard people talk about, well,

1032
01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:33.920
my ancestors came here the right way. I'm like, the right way

1033
01:09:34.039 --> 01:09:40.680
was easy as shit back then.
Though. Yeah, all right, yeah,

1034
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:44.479
I mean you can take advantage of
undocumented people in this country too,

1035
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:47.159
right, There's just there's you know, I think DayLA's kind of mentioning this,

1036
01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:50.880
but it's like, yeah, the
people who are here to work even

1037
01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:55.760
to take advantage of those opportunities,
they don't even get the same benefits that

1038
01:09:55.960 --> 01:09:59.119
we do, and they work just
as hard, if not harder, than

1039
01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:01.720
a lot of people that I So
it's just a it's just this idea of

1040
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:05.640
citizenship, this idea of being American, if it if it truly is more

1041
01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:11.159
ideology based right as as you aspire
it to be. If it's really more

1042
01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:15.199
of a dream anyway, right then
then paperwork should be the last thing that

1043
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.520
anyone should care about when it comes
to people being here. But that's not

1044
01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:25.239
how we work or the world works, and that's unfortunate. Anyway. I

1045
01:10:25.439 --> 01:10:30.279
love to talk about things that we're
more inclined to usually talk about, specifically

1046
01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:34.159
our patrons, Sophia. We do
have our top five patrons listed out this

1047
01:10:34.199 --> 01:10:39.239
week. Would you like to read
them? Sure? We have number one

1048
01:10:39.439 --> 01:10:45.680
dingle Berry Jackson. Number two oops
all singularity number three, doub or belgeen?

1049
01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:48.399
Did I say that one? Right? I'm always they I'm always trying.

1050
01:10:49.119 --> 01:10:53.319
Number that was three? Yeah,
number four okay, I have to

1051
01:10:53.399 --> 01:10:57.520
like this one, this one,
Calevi Helvetti, Yeah, that's it.

1052
01:10:58.159 --> 01:11:02.720
Number five Leaves in the Trees And
honorable mention to number six Phantom met which

1053
01:11:02.760 --> 01:11:06.039
is a really fun name. Yes, there's so many really fun names.

1054
01:11:06.279 --> 01:11:11.840
Number five Left in the Leaves is
actually what it is? You said,

1055
01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:15.000
left in the trees. Yes,
you're right, it's leaves, not trees.

1056
01:11:15.079 --> 01:11:17.319
I'm sorry. I want to make
sure our patrons get their full shout

1057
01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:21.520
out, so thank you to everybody
that donates on the patron fun fact Sophia

1058
01:11:21.520 --> 01:11:25.039
doesn't get any of that. I
don't get any of that. Most of

1059
01:11:25.039 --> 01:11:27.479
our volunteers, I mean all of
our volunteers don't get any of that.

1060
01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:30.439
It goes towards the atheist community of
Boston and it tells them that hey,

1061
01:11:30.479 --> 01:11:34.239
talk to his cool show and we
should put more stuff into it. So

1062
01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:38.640
thank you to everybody that donates on
that. We also have a super chat

1063
01:11:38.640 --> 01:11:43.560
from Jimmy Junior member of two Months, who gave a dollar ninety nine and

1064
01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:48.359
in the super chat said, I
fucking love both of you, so thank

1065
01:11:48.399 --> 01:11:56.560
you for that. Is great and
very it's very funny. I don't know

1066
01:11:56.640 --> 01:12:00.560
we get super tests from like our
own HEAPS system. I don't know.

1067
01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:05.479
It's it's really funny to see that
happen. I still feel like I'm a

1068
01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:08.600
newer host in many ways, like
I'm still getting to know it. So

1069
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:11.600
I'm like, Okay, I did
something. Okay, Like, yeah,

1070
01:12:11.960 --> 01:12:15.359
Jimmy Jr. Is awesome. If
you haven't seen a show with Jimi Junior,

1071
01:12:15.399 --> 01:12:18.520
you should definitely check it out.
We have another person, they're in

1072
01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:20.680
the calling cube right now. We'll
get to them in just a second.

1073
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:25.279
So we got a few more minutes
of just you and me, Sophia.

1074
01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:27.680
What oh yeah, let's do screenshirt
real quick. Yeah yeah, if we

1075
01:12:27.760 --> 01:12:30.800
got a screenshot on the ready,
and we just let the crew know,

1076
01:12:30.920 --> 01:12:33.800
hey, screenshot, put it on
the screen if you got it, and

1077
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:38.600
then we'll give our wonderful, fabulous
and informed commentary. Let's see what this

1078
01:12:38.640 --> 01:12:43.560
one says. This is me that
says would do things of the bottle.

1079
01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:45.359
I guess it's me talking about it. And then somebody commenting who has the

1080
01:12:45.399 --> 01:12:48.840
authority to decide when you are born
and when you die. The author of

1081
01:12:48.920 --> 01:12:53.199
life, He makes that decision for
every single person who lives. You are

1082
01:12:53.239 --> 01:12:57.560
deriding God for being God. Do
you realize how ridiculous you sound and how

1083
01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:03.720
bad of an argument this is?
Uh? Well, I guess if I

1084
01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:09.640
thought that a fetus was a person, maybe you be onto something. But

1085
01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:13.199
I don't. So is that that's
it? That's all I can say,

1086
01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:15.439
because that's that's one hundred percent talking
about abortion. I don't even know the

1087
01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:19.720
context to know that's what. That's
right. I feel like just following the

1088
01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:26.359
internal logic of this comment, like
so, if God has control of these

1089
01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:32.000
things, then you shouldn't criticize him
for controlling them. Question mark with the

1090
01:13:32.039 --> 01:13:36.479
whole like the writing God for being
God thing, It's like, I mean,

1091
01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:41.359
that's sort of saying that if someone
has the authority to make a choice,

1092
01:13:41.600 --> 01:13:45.279
you cannot criticize the choice. Thing
me and that seems very silly to

1093
01:13:45.319 --> 01:13:50.199
me. Yeah, Like, Sophia, let's say you have answer and do

1094
01:13:50.239 --> 01:13:54.399
you seek treatment for that cancer?
And I would say no, Sophia,

1095
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:58.920
you need to let God be the
deciding factor as to whether or not you

1096
01:13:59.000 --> 01:14:02.039
pass from this illnes is. I
think anybody would rightfully tell me to fuck

1097
01:14:02.119 --> 01:14:05.840
off if I ever said that,
because that's fucking stupid. And the fact

1098
01:14:05.960 --> 01:14:12.279
is, for abortion care right,
we have ways to make this as seamless

1099
01:14:12.279 --> 01:14:15.439
of a procedure as we can possibly
get it to be right, Like we

1100
01:14:15.800 --> 01:14:19.640
could make all parties involved as comfortable
as possible. And when it comes to

1101
01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:24.760
fetus, especially if we're talking about
in the first trimester, even they don't

1102
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:29.560
there's no capacity for suffering at that
point for the fetus, So it's not

1103
01:14:29.640 --> 01:14:32.680
like you're really harming an individual.
It really comes down to what's going to

1104
01:14:32.720 --> 01:14:38.479
be working best for the family involved, because that is the most important decision

1105
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:41.000
at the end of the day,
and if you don't agree with that,

1106
01:14:41.199 --> 01:14:43.960
then we're just not talking the same
thing. I don't know what you care

1107
01:14:43.960 --> 01:14:46.279
about, but it's not people if
it is right. I think when I

1108
01:14:46.319 --> 01:14:50.399
went into a deep dive of my
opinions on that particular topic, I just

1109
01:14:50.840 --> 01:14:56.159
was like, Okay, whether you
believe abortions or abortions, sorry, the

1110
01:14:56.199 --> 01:15:00.439
Holy vetuses are people or not?
Do I want to adhere to the idea

1111
01:15:00.920 --> 01:15:06.239
that anyone is able to claim the
organs of someone else to keep them alive,

1112
01:15:06.439 --> 01:15:14.039
because say that the person who's pregnant
and the fetus both have full personhood,

1113
01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:18.039
it would still have the premise that
this one person, the fetus,

1114
01:15:18.039 --> 01:15:23.199
has the right to the organs of
another person to stay alive. And I

1115
01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:26.960
don't agree with that or believe in
that, So like for me, that's

1116
01:15:27.079 --> 01:15:30.800
that's where I do sort of a
limit. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1117
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:33.560
we got one more call today we
get really serious. We might be more

1118
01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:36.159
serious. There is one more call
in the cue. I think if you

1119
01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:39.359
want to take it, we can. Otherwise we can in the show early

1120
01:15:39.399 --> 01:15:41.840
we think you want to go for
it, Let's do yeah quickly. I

1121
01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:44.520
mean, I'm curious about the argument. So okay, let's see here.

1122
01:15:44.560 --> 01:15:47.720
We got Chase, who's calling in
from the USA. Chase, you're live

1123
01:15:47.840 --> 01:15:50.680
on talk hethen And if we can, let's try to make it just a

1124
01:15:50.680 --> 01:15:54.680
little quicker because we are getting towards
the end the show. What's going on?

1125
01:15:54.760 --> 01:15:57.319
Chase? All right, we can
do this as quick as possible.

1126
01:15:57.680 --> 01:16:01.560
I got a thought experiment about animal
rights and it's called name the Trait.

1127
01:16:02.600 --> 01:16:05.359
I'm ready for you a game,
Okay, cool. I just don't want

1128
01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:10.000
to overwhelm you and stop me if
you need to. So basically the idea

1129
01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:15.600
is the question is, so name
the trait in TT is a consistency test

1130
01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:18.680
basically, so it asks the question, uh, basically, what is the

1131
01:16:18.720 --> 01:16:24.520
difference between humans and animals that makes
it okay to slaughter animals but not slaughter

1132
01:16:24.640 --> 01:16:29.239
human? And so instead of actually
running in TT on you, instead of

1133
01:16:29.279 --> 01:16:30.960
running name the trade on you because
it can make people uncomfortable and stuff,

1134
01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:33.399
and I love y'all, I don't
want to make it a debate, or

1135
01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:40.159
I can just kind of explain the
process to you and how like some people

1136
01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:44.439
give their common answers, and then
the response to that, does that sound

1137
01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:46.960
good? Okay, let's do it? Okay? Cool. So, so

1138
01:16:47.000 --> 01:16:49.720
some people will say, in response
to that question, what's the difference between

1139
01:16:49.760 --> 01:16:54.279
humans and animals that makes it okay
to slaughter animals but not humans? Is

1140
01:16:54.319 --> 01:16:59.159
that animals have lower intelligence? And
so that that's the trait that they're naming,

1141
01:16:59.520 --> 01:17:01.960
is that animals have lower intelligence than
humans. And I can grant that,

1142
01:17:02.079 --> 01:17:05.520
right, We're smarter than animals,
sure on average. But then the

1143
01:17:05.600 --> 01:17:09.359
question would be, well, what
if we found a human who had that

1144
01:17:09.439 --> 01:17:13.520
trait of lower intelligence than the average
human, such that you know, this

1145
01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:17.239
human was let's say, brain really
brain damaged or mentally disabled, such that

1146
01:17:17.239 --> 01:17:20.800
they're only as smart as like a
three year old child or a dog or

1147
01:17:20.840 --> 01:17:25.800
a pig. Is it okay to
slaughter that human because they have lower intelligence.

1148
01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:28.600
If intelligence is the trait, then
it should be okay to slaughter this

1149
01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:31.520
human. But most people say,
no, it's not okay to slaughter mentally

1150
01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:35.119
disabled people, right, or anybody
of lower intelligence, because it doesn't We

1151
01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:38.720
all seem to agree, for the
most part, most of us agree that

1152
01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:42.479
just because somebody's of lower intelligence,
that's not a justification to cause them harm.

1153
01:17:42.520 --> 01:17:45.199
In fact, they need protection stuff. So then we have to like

1154
01:17:45.359 --> 01:17:48.520
so then the person will have to
kind of go back to the starting point

1155
01:17:48.800 --> 01:17:54.720
and name a new trait, because
if they don't feel comfortable with that situation,

1156
01:17:55.119 --> 01:17:58.880
then it's not the fact that lower
intelligence was the trait that makes that

1157
01:17:58.920 --> 01:18:02.199
differential treatment, And so then they'll
say maybe, you know, oftentimes they'll

1158
01:18:02.239 --> 01:18:05.199
say things like, well, it's
DNA, it's the fact that we're human

1159
01:18:05.399 --> 01:18:09.840
and the animals are animals. It's
not lower intelligence, or maybe it's you

1160
01:18:09.880 --> 01:18:11.399
know, the end. So we'll
say, okay, well, what if

1161
01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:14.960
we found an alien species, you
know, big hypothetical, But what if

1162
01:18:15.000 --> 01:18:18.039
we found in species that was not
human, they had different DNA, but

1163
01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:21.000
they looked just like humans, and
they act just like humans, and they

1164
01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:25.319
think just like us, equal intelligence
to us, but they have different DNA.

1165
01:18:25.359 --> 01:18:28.800
Would it be okay to slaughter these
this alien species for non you know,

1166
01:18:29.079 --> 01:18:32.119
out of just for pleasure of the
taste book and most people, most

1167
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:34.880
people, you know, sometimes people
will say, yeah, it's trying to

1168
01:18:34.960 --> 01:18:38.760
kill aliens, and it's like,
well, okay, you know, or

1169
01:18:38.880 --> 01:18:41.279
or you know, even though they
look in actions like us, or sometimes

1170
01:18:41.319 --> 01:18:43.279
most people will say, no,
it's not okay to kill like, you

1171
01:18:43.319 --> 01:18:46.079
know, those individuals because they're so
similar to us. And so then we

1172
01:18:46.119 --> 01:18:49.000
have to again go back to the
drawing board the initial position, Well what

1173
01:18:49.079 --> 01:18:53.640
is the trait then, you know, And sometimes they'll say, well,

1174
01:18:53.680 --> 01:18:57.880
it's a combination of those two factors, lower intelligence and DNA. So then

1175
01:18:57.880 --> 01:19:01.000
I ask, well, if we
had that that alien species who look just

1176
01:19:01.159 --> 01:19:05.720
like us, except they're mentally disabled
or brain damage to the some degree right

1177
01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:09.319
to where they're only as smart as
a three year old child or a dog

1178
01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:11.800
or a pig, but they look
and act just like a you know,

1179
01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:15.880
I'm basically a mentally disabled human,
but they have different DNA and their lower

1180
01:19:15.880 --> 01:19:19.039
intelligence. Do those two traits now
justify slaughtering this individual? And some people

1181
01:19:19.079 --> 01:19:23.319
will say, yes, it's okay
to kill mentally disabled aliens that are just

1182
01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:28.520
like indistinguishable from your regular mentally disabled
person. And some people are like,

1183
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.119
no, that's disgusting, that's terrible, it's wrong to do that. So

1184
01:19:30.159 --> 01:19:32.520
we have to go back to the
drawing board. But if they're consistent,

1185
01:19:32.520 --> 01:19:34.720
and I'll wrap up real soon here, I know I've been ranting. But

1186
01:19:35.159 --> 01:19:40.079
if they're consistent and they say,
yeah, it's okay to slaughter the mentally

1187
01:19:40.119 --> 01:19:45.479
disabled aliens because they have lower intelligence
and different DNA, well I would just

1188
01:19:45.479 --> 01:19:48.079
call that a reductio ad absurdum.
Where they're consistent, yes, but their

1189
01:19:48.159 --> 01:19:53.560
argument reduces to absurdity where they look
atrocious, and most people will think that's

1190
01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:57.920
pretty disgusting behavior to do that.
If that were if if that was someone

1191
01:19:57.960 --> 01:20:00.000
there, you know that that would
be a terrible thing to do. And

1192
01:20:00.119 --> 01:20:04.640
so the other option is just to
realize that lower intelligence and different DNA or

1193
01:20:04.680 --> 01:20:10.079
the different shape that somebody comes in
is irrelevant morally, and that we should

1194
01:20:10.319 --> 01:20:15.279
respect animals and aliens and anybody who's
different and just be nice and not slaughter

1195
01:20:15.319 --> 01:20:18.159
them. All Right, there's a
lot of things there there, Sophia.

1196
01:20:18.640 --> 01:20:21.760
Yeah, I was just thinking maybe, just because of the interest of time

1197
01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:25.439
and we're kind of like trying to
wrap up, maybe we can respond to

1198
01:20:25.479 --> 01:20:28.600
you off air, just so it
doesn't become a huge conversation. I don't

1199
01:20:28.600 --> 01:20:31.840
know, but either way, I
would say that Unfortunately, I think kind

1200
01:20:31.840 --> 01:20:34.920
of the whole idea is a bit
of an adductive Adamsterdam, because we're trying

1201
01:20:34.920 --> 01:20:41.760
to reduce the experience of being human
to a specific trade or even specific cocktails

1202
01:20:41.800 --> 01:20:44.880
of traits with people who have maybe
never thought about this before. I think

1203
01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:49.359
it's a fun thought experiment, just
because I think it's good to critically examine

1204
01:20:49.359 --> 01:20:55.239
why we are okay with eating meat, and I think it's okay to be

1205
01:20:55.279 --> 01:20:58.720
uncomfortable with that and to think about
like what our limit is for that.

1206
01:20:58.880 --> 01:21:01.439
So my mother recently, she participates
in a lot of autopsies. She stopped

1207
01:21:01.439 --> 01:21:05.600
eating pork because it was just too
similar to human And you know, I

1208
01:21:05.640 --> 01:21:10.640
think that it's interesting how people come
to these conclusions. But I would say

1209
01:21:10.640 --> 01:21:14.079
that whenever we start with an argument
that's just like, here's name a thing

1210
01:21:14.399 --> 01:21:18.239
that makes humans, it's already a
little ridiculous, which can be okay for

1211
01:21:18.279 --> 01:21:24.600
a thought experiment, but I find
it maybe not as useful because it will

1212
01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:27.039
sort of stop at a thought experiment. I don't know what are your thoughts

1213
01:21:27.079 --> 01:21:30.880
stand well, When Plato set out
to define a human being and announced that

1214
01:21:30.920 --> 01:21:38.520
the answer was a featherless biped Diogenes
quite famously went to Plato's school and presented

1215
01:21:38.560 --> 01:21:43.520
a plucked chicken and said, behold
a man, right. And so I

1216
01:21:43.880 --> 01:21:45.760
so Chase knows me, Chase.
We've had conversations. Chase. You know,

1217
01:21:45.800 --> 01:21:48.279
I'm a ve in same way as
you. You know, we have

1218
01:21:48.439 --> 01:21:53.840
very similar ideas of animal, you
know, treating animals right. And so

1219
01:21:53.960 --> 01:21:57.479
I think this is a great tool
to get people started. And I imagine

1220
01:21:57.479 --> 01:22:00.920
that's your intention, is a tool
to get people started think about the traits

1221
01:22:00.920 --> 01:22:06.640
in which we actually make our decisions
right, And I think for that purpose

1222
01:22:06.800 --> 01:22:11.720
it's a great conversation starter. Of
course, I don't think your intention is

1223
01:22:11.720 --> 01:22:14.399
this, but if anybody is trying
to, you know, seriously suggest you

1224
01:22:14.399 --> 01:22:18.239
know, obviously, to construct an
entire moral foundation off of just using this

1225
01:22:18.439 --> 01:22:23.880
particular method, there might be,
you know, some additional thought that would

1226
01:22:23.880 --> 01:22:26.680
be put into it. And and
again I'm not claiming this is what you

1227
01:22:26.720 --> 01:22:30.359
are saying is what is to happen. I just think obviously, as Sophia

1228
01:22:30.399 --> 01:22:32.239
point out, there may be some
limitations, but it is a good starting

1229
01:22:32.239 --> 01:22:39.079
point. I do think examining,
particularly in animal ethics, what makes human

1230
01:22:39.159 --> 01:22:45.920
beings so much more sort of you
know above reproach when it comes to the

1231
01:22:45.960 --> 01:22:50.640
decisions we make and in how we
decide to eat things versus other beings.

1232
01:22:51.199 --> 01:22:55.239
There is something to be said about
that. There is there is pause to

1233
01:22:55.319 --> 01:22:59.439
be had, but it's a tail
as all the time trying to do this

1234
01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:04.520
whole, you know, figuring out
the basics through through trait identification. Right,

1235
01:23:04.640 --> 01:23:06.800
anyway, I guess that's my thoughts. Chase, what do you think?

1236
01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:10.319
Yeah, And just to wrap up
real quick, I guess yeah.

1237
01:23:10.399 --> 01:23:13.439
One thing I would say is,
yeah, if if you know a burning

1238
01:23:13.479 --> 01:23:15.479
building, you know it's happening,
and it's two individuals in that building,

1239
01:23:15.560 --> 01:23:17.680
and it's you know, either a
puppy. I can only say one,

1240
01:23:17.720 --> 01:23:23.520
it's a puppy or Hitler. I'm
gonna save the puppy in that mat sure

1241
01:23:23.760 --> 01:23:26.600
one case where like species ain't got
nothing to do with it because the puppyin't

1242
01:23:26.600 --> 01:23:29.720
gonna have somebody, you know.
But and then the last but but I'd

1243
01:23:29.720 --> 01:23:33.600
love to talk to you guys more
on discord in your ACA the atheist community

1244
01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:38.479
or no APIs community of Discord.
The ACD on discord is going to be

1245
01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:41.600
a fun chat afterwards that people should
join that. And I would just encourage

1246
01:23:41.640 --> 01:23:46.000
people to watch the documentary called Dominion
with Joaquin Phoenix. It's on YouTube for

1247
01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:49.640
free. Dominion on YouTube. All
righty, thank thanks so much, Chase.

1248
01:23:49.720 --> 01:23:53.720
Appreciate you chiming into the show.
Go ahead, let's go, and

1249
01:23:54.239 --> 01:23:59.039
uh yeah it's I. I.
I again have had conversations with other folks

1250
01:23:59.279 --> 01:24:03.520
in what I would call the skeptic
community that make absolutely terrible arguments against veganism

1251
01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:09.880
on my account or at least protections
of animal rights in some capacity, and

1252
01:24:09.960 --> 01:24:13.520
I've heard some better criticisms. But
you know, ultimately I got to the

1253
01:24:13.520 --> 01:24:16.239
position that I did because I really
did try to explore this stuff and I

1254
01:24:16.239 --> 01:24:19.920
found that this is like one of
those topics that people are just very uncomfortable

1255
01:24:19.960 --> 01:24:25.680
talking about that. Being we have
a capacity to decide not to eat the

1256
01:24:25.720 --> 01:24:28.960
things that we do, how much
do we follow through with that? So

1257
01:24:30.039 --> 01:24:32.680
I think that that's totally reasonable,
and like, if I'm honest about it,

1258
01:24:33.279 --> 01:24:36.600
which I suppose I should be about
all things when we're you know,

1259
01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:43.479
seeking what is true. I haven't
really gotten as into it as I know

1260
01:24:43.600 --> 01:24:45.800
I could, simply because there's I
guess, lots of different issues and we

1261
01:24:45.840 --> 01:24:48.560
all pick out different paths or what's
the most important to us. But I

1262
01:24:48.640 --> 01:24:53.560
have this maeaking suspicion that I would
feel more obligated to change some of my

1263
01:24:53.640 --> 01:24:57.439
lifestyle than I'm currently ready to,
which is a terrible thing to say.

1264
01:24:57.479 --> 01:25:00.920
And just be like, I know
that's probably you know, even if I

1265
01:25:00.960 --> 01:25:02.880
wouldn't be a full vegan, Like
I know that there's probably more to that,

1266
01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:06.439
like going that direction than I have. Sure, Yeah, which is

1267
01:25:06.439 --> 01:25:10.239
why I love the thought experiment.
I'm like, be uncomfortable, but I

1268
01:25:10.800 --> 01:25:13.960
am like how many Christians would say
the same thing about being an atheist?

1269
01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:17.560
Right if you have to is you
know discover hey this thing isn't true.

1270
01:25:17.600 --> 01:25:20.960
Oh well, that's going to make
finding new friends awkward. That's going to

1271
01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:26.199
make the communities I volunteer with a
lot more awkward. That's going to make

1272
01:25:26.239 --> 01:25:29.359
a lot of things more difficult.
You know, the implications of it in

1273
01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:32.359
my life are hard, and I'm
not able to take that on yet,

1274
01:25:32.680 --> 01:25:36.279
you know, definitely parallel, I
think, yeah, but it's an interesting

1275
01:25:36.319 --> 01:25:42.159
thought. Oats. We are about
to finish things up. Just wanted to

1276
01:25:42.239 --> 01:25:45.279
say thanks again to everybody that donated. Thanks again to everybody that one more

1277
01:25:45.319 --> 01:25:48.039
super chat you should throw in there. Well, we get that super chat

1278
01:25:48.119 --> 01:25:53.439
in there real quick. It's from
nash. We gave two dollars. Canadian

1279
01:25:53.479 --> 01:25:55.640
said, what a great show today. Good job you guys, Thank you

1280
01:25:55.720 --> 01:26:00.520
so much. That's so nice.
Let's give some quick love rings, uh

1281
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:02.800
to everybody out there. On the
count of three, I'm gonna blast my

1282
01:26:02.840 --> 01:26:10.239
love rings. Ready, one,
two, three, There we go.

1283
01:26:10.319 --> 01:26:14.560
It's delayed. The lover rings had
to travel through the internet waves and sometimes

1284
01:26:14.560 --> 01:26:16.399
they get caught up in the cables. So thank you, thank you for

1285
01:26:16.439 --> 01:26:21.399
those lover rings. The prompt this
week is what's a good response to Jesus

1286
01:26:21.560 --> 01:26:26.640
loves you? And uh give your
comments for that. I'm very interested to

1287
01:26:26.680 --> 01:26:31.239
see what people will say about that. Particular prompt if you want to hang

1288
01:26:31.279 --> 01:26:36.000
out with folks on the discord,
there's a tired out CC slash ACD discord.

1289
01:26:36.199 --> 01:26:41.640
That's the link to go to the
fan run discord. Uh. And

1290
01:26:41.840 --> 01:26:45.000
with that announcement down, I think
that's everything I have to say, Sophia,

1291
01:26:45.079 --> 01:26:48.119
was there anything else you want to
chime in before before I wramp it

1292
01:26:48.199 --> 01:26:50.880
up? No, I think you've
got it handled. Okay. Well,

1293
01:26:50.920 --> 01:26:56.159
if you don't believe, this is
your community and we appreciate you being here.

1294
01:26:56.199 --> 01:26:59.960
If you do believe, we don't
hate you, I'm just not convinced.

1295
01:27:00.279 --> 01:27:23.159
Thanks again, everybody, have a
good one. Bye bye. We

1296
01:27:23.279 --> 01:27:28.039
want the truth, So watch Truth
Wanted Live Friday at seven pm Central.

1297
01:27:28.439 --> 01:27:32.680
Visit tiny dot CC slash y t
tw and call into the show at five

1298
01:27:32.800 --> 01:27:40.039
one two nine two four two,
or connect to the show online at tiny

1299
01:27:40.119 --> 01:27:42.520
dot CC slash call tw