WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:08.919 Welcome back and joining us now is Jay Warner Wallace. I said at the 2 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:11.720 beginning of the program, everybody loves a great detective story. Well, this 3 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:17.280 is the greatest detective story ever told. And he is a cold case homicide 4 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:22.480 detective and he is still doing consultations, but he is also a senior Fellow 5 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:26.239 now at the Coulson Center for Christian Worldview. His cases have been featured more 6 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:30.160 than any other detective on NBC's Dateline. His work has also appeared on Fox 7 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:34.079 News, on True Crime, many others. He's been awarded the Police and 8 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:40.119 Fire Medal of Valor for Sustained Superiority Award for his continuing work on cold case 9 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:46.280 homicides, and the Cops West Award after solving a nineteen seventy nine murder. 10 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:51.240 He also has a weekly podcast. You can find him on YouTube as well. 11 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:57.039 Mister Wallace r all those listed under cold case Christianities where they'll find that, 12 00:00:57.119 --> 00:01:00.159 right, Yeah, if I'm under Jay Warner Wallace and all the social 13 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.119 media stuff. But yeah, for sure, that's that's helpful. Thanks good 14 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.400 yes, and I have I listened to his book years ago, really enjoyed 15 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:14.760 the approach and as I also said, anybody who wants to have critical thinking, 16 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:18.280 who wants to look at the information that has presented to us. Most 17 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:22.239 of us are doing some kind of a cold case investigation because we're not right 18 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:26.200 there on the scene evaluating it. So we have to look at the credibility 19 00:01:26.239 --> 00:01:29.159 of the witnesses or the journalists to reporting this to us. So this is 20 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:34.719 something that applies to everybody. But I've said many times, you know, 21 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.599 when we talk about whether or not there is a God, you know, 22 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.920 the arguments for intelligent design, DNA, things like Michael Bahey's book, Darwin's 23 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:47.280 Black Box, all those are very convincing. Even before we had things like 24 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.760 DNA creation spoke to us, we knew there was a designer. You know, 25 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.200 you look at a building, you know that somebody built that building, 26 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:56.159 that type of thing. I wanted to get you on though, because you 27 00:01:56.200 --> 00:02:01.000 looked at this from the standpoint of are the witnesses and the text? Is 28 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:05.519 it credible in the Bible? A little bit about it? How you evaluate 29 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:07.240 that? Yeah, and a lot let's face it, we could make a 30 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:12.039 case for God's existence, and I would sometimes have asked to do that. 31 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.360 And but that case you would make, you can make actually without even opening 32 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:16.840 your scriptures. You could make that just from science, you can make it 33 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:21.039 from the features of the universe. But even if you did that, you 34 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:23.360 wouldn't necessarily be making a case for the God of the Bible, because if 35 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:27.680 you're a theist and some you know you're a Muslim, or if you're any 36 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.919 strand of theism, that this case you would make for God's existence might also 37 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:37.120 apply to your case for your belief system. But Christianity is different, and 38 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.840 that, unlike other worldviews that don't talk about God, Christianity makes a claim. 39 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:45.199 It's not just a claim about the nature of God. It's a claim 40 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:47.400 about a series of events that occurred in the first century. In other words, 41 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:52.680 it's not that our scripture is a set of proverbial claims like the Wise 42 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:55.960 Wisdom's statements of how law and the behigh faith. It's not like that. 43 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.639 But how a lot doesn't make any claims about what happens in history. The 44 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:05.280 New Testament Gospels do. And because they're making claims about an event as the 45 00:03:05.360 --> 00:03:10.000 Resurrection of Jesus that's set in a specific time in history on a specific location 46 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:14.439 on planet Earth. Well, now we've got a claim that we could actually 47 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:19.199 investigate. And that's the beauty of Christianity is that it is confirmable, or 48 00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:23.919 it is verifiable or falsifiable based on our investigation of the claims made, the 49 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:29.080 historic claims made in the Gospels. Now, it's much like when a crime 50 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.599 occurs forty fifty years ago, and if I decided to reopen that case, 51 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.719 how do I know? I've got cases that are go back as far as 52 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.319 nineteen seventy two. How do you know in a case like that where you 53 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:45.599 don't have access anymore to the eyewitnesses because they're dead, or you don't even 54 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.599 even have access to the detectives who wrote the first reports when they talk to 55 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:53.560 the eyewitnesses because often they're dead now too, Well, what do you do 56 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:55.280 with that? If you have no access to the witnesses and no access to 57 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:59.680 the report writers. Well, this is the problem we have with the Gospels. 58 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.120 And I think you could apply the same approach. How do I you 59 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:06.319 know? What are the what are the areas of eyewitness reliability? And do 60 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:11.840 the Gospel authors pass the test when measured that way? Now, I'll tell 61 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:15.680 you this is the only way I knew to examine the Christian worldview because I 62 00:04:15.720 --> 00:04:19.040 happened to be a detective. When I first got saved, I was thirty 63 00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:24.839 five night working is a I was already a senior detective on my in my 64 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:29.600 agency, and I was, you know, you know, using these applying 65 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.839 these techniques to cases. And so it wasn't like I was thinking, well, 66 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:36.120 let me do something kind of unique or novel here. I thought that 67 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:41.759 everybody who was going to examine these claims about history would want to examine them 68 00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.519 this way. I didn't know any other way to examine them. So so 69 00:04:45.560 --> 00:04:48.319 that's really the system I took when I first encountered Christianity. That's what I 70 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:51.759 think is so interesting about it, and especially because it is an exercise and 71 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:57.720 critical thought. As you said, the Bible is very rooted in a particular 72 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:01.720 time and place and historical aspects. When you look at Luke, it's very 73 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.759 clear, you know, this happened when this person was ruling in that type 74 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:11.240 of thing. And so these are things that we can investigate. And when 75 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:13.959 somebody makes a claim, you know, we're seeing this happening all the time. 76 00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:17.439 You know, somebody makes a claim about climate change or about man's contribution 77 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:21.959 to climate change, how do we evaluate that? Is the burden of proof 78 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:25.879 is on the person who's making the claim, right, Yeah, it is, 79 00:05:25.879 --> 00:05:29.199 and I tell you that everyone's making a claim. So here's what I 80 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:31.040 would say. This is often leveraged against us. Right, They'll say, 81 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.600 look, you claim there's a God. We don't see God. We have 82 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:38.600 no evidence for God. They would argue that if you're claiming that there's something 83 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.759 that exists when it's not obvious to the rest of us, well that that 84 00:05:41.879 --> 00:05:46.480 burden then is on you. But that's not exactly how this works. In 85 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.839 criminal cases, you have an effect a dead body, Okay, that's what 86 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:54.000 I work over dead bodies, and then you have to figure out what is 87 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:58.000 the most reasonable cause for that stuff you have in the crime scene. That's 88 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.879 how this works. Now, if I'm going to suggest that there is there's 89 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.839 a crime scene here, it's called the universe, and we are in that 90 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:08.000 universe, and the question is how did different thing in the universe come to 91 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:11.439 be the way it is today. Now I'm going to pause it a cause 92 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.560 I'm going to pause it that that causes God, a supernatural being outside of 93 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.000 space, time and matter. If you think that you can get all the 94 00:06:18.040 --> 00:06:21.759 stuff in the universe without God, then you have to pause it a cause. 95 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:25.319 Also, you're going to say everything here is a cause of space time, 96 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.079 matter of physics, and chemistry. Okay, great, but we both 97 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:30.639 have a burden. Now. I have a burden to show you why God 98 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:33.079 is the best and most reasonable explanation. You have a burden to show me 99 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:38.319 why space time, matter of physics, and chemistry are the most reasonable explanation. 100 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:43.319 We both share a burden because we're trying to explain the cause for what 101 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.040 we see in the scene. So I don't like when people try to you 102 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.399 know, this is why it's so important to be like you said, this 103 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:53.360 enterprise of critical thinking is so important because we have to kind of think, 104 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:56.519 well, how do I think about things critically and including my own faith? 105 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.959 And if you don't think that that's important, now, you probably haven't given 106 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.639 and your kids yet. The Glowing Rectangle called them smartphone because it turns out 107 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:09.399 that once your kids have that, and sadly, I see parents giving these 108 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.800 things to their kids when they're you know, their kids are like ten years 109 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:15.160 old. Well, you've just introduced your child to a world that is demanding 110 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:20.120 evidence and thinks it has evidence for their beliefs, and so they're adopting views 111 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:24.759 that they think are based on science, based on this kind of research, 112 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:28.879 based on a kind of thinking that they don't see in us as believers, 113 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:32.600 if we aren't applying the same approach to our faith. They think that on 114 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.959 our side we have people who just wishful thinking, and on the other side 115 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:42.519 it's based on data and facts. Well, that's not necessarily the case, 116 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:44.720 and I want us on this side to be able to say, no, 117 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:48.680 my faith is grounded in facts. So a matter of fact, this whole 118 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:53.560 word hope that's used in the New Testament is not the kind of word that 119 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:58.360 we use out like in our English language. Hope kind of means like wishful 120 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:01.879 thinking. I'm in Los Angeles County close to Los Angeles, Ken, just 121 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:05.079 one county away, and I worked in Los Angeles kN in my entire career, 122 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.000 and we've got like all kinds of sporting teams. So when I say, 123 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:09.959 you know, the Ram's gonna win on Sunday, well, I hope, 124 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.959 So that that word kind of means why, I don't know, but 125 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:16.199 maybe well, okay, Well, that's different than the kind of hope that's 126 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.560 used in scripture. In scripture, the word hope is really a level of 127 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:24.639 certainty, which is much higher at level of confidence, which is much higher 128 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.920 because it's based in something that can be known. So when we say we 129 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.800 have hope in God, it's because we know enough to know that our hope, 130 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:35.679 that our trust is confidently placed. So I think that that's the difference 131 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.360 in We need a Christians to realize that difference and to help communicate that to 132 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.600 the next generation or get ready. The tide is going to swing, and 133 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:48.399 it already has started to swing against us, and it's because we don't take 134 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:50.759 the same approach the world takes. We kind of like the ones who are 135 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:54.519 hoping this is true, and they're the ones who know what's true according to 136 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:56.559 kids, Well, we have to kind of help our kids to see that 137 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:01.799 we know what's true as well. That's right. The Saul falls into what 138 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.039 Christians call apologetics, And I think a lot of people look at this and 139 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:09.799 the apologetics, what are we apologizing for? Because that's another word that's changed 140 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:13.399 meanings. Just like you talk about hope, right, apologetics used to mean 141 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:16.720 that it was a defense, and it was that way, you know, 142 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:20.519 from ancient times up until about the middle of the eighteen hundreds, and then 143 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.879 it became well, an acknowledgement that I've done something wrong, I'm at fault. 144 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.120 And that really is kind of the way that most Christians approach when they 145 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:33.120 talk about apologetics. Usually they apologize now for being a Christian instead of having 146 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:37.360 a rigorous defense of it. You know, so we need to move back 147 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:43.240 to the definition of apologetics that preceded the apology that's out there. I think, 148 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:45.879 yeah, and tell you, I think every one of us who claims 149 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:48.840 to be a Christian believer, and I say this to juries all the time. 150 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.799 We tell jurors that we are going to tell them everything they need to 151 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:56.559 know, but we cannot communicate everything that could be known because we don't even 152 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:58.000 know everything that could be known. In other words, you're going to have 153 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:01.559 to render a verdict even though you're probably gonna have a few open questions. 154 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:07.279 This is true for every juror who's ever sat on a jury render they've had 155 00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:09.000 to render a verdict, but they probably would have if you asked him, 156 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.000 they probably would have said, you know, I wish i'd had the answer 157 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:15.799 to this question, though, And often we know that someone did it because 158 00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:18.799 they haven't confessed to it. We don't know exactly how they did it. 159 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.159 That's an open question. Yet you can still render a verdict and determine truth 160 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.080 even though you have open questions. The same thing is happening for us as 161 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:30.799 Christian believers. There's an evidence trail, and like in a suspect in a 162 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.919 case in a jury trial, that evidence trail seems to be pointing directly. 163 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.600 It's leading right to that defendant at the end of the table. Now it 164 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:39.879 turns out it's not leading to his right two feet or to his left two 165 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:43.639 feet. It's pointing right at him, but it stops just short of him. 166 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:48.120 So the question is am I reasonable in taking the step across what I 167 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.559 call the open questions? You're gonna have to take a step from the end 168 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.279 of the evidence trail across your unanswered questions to render a verdict. The same 169 00:10:56.279 --> 00:11:01.519 thing is true with Christianity. There's more than an evidence that points to the 170 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:03.879 reliability of scripture, to the existence of God, to the resurrection of Jesus. 171 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:07.480 But I can't answer every question you want, and so you're gonna have 172 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:09.759 to take a step from the end of that evidence trail. But by the 173 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.159 way, that evidence trail does not just it points right to this conclusion. 174 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.519 It doesn't point a foot to the right or a foot to the left. 175 00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:18.960 You're going to have to step across the end of the evidence trail to make 176 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.720 a reasonable inference. Now we call that a step of faith, but it's 177 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.919 not blind. Now here's the sad thing about it. Most of us can 178 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.159 make a better case for why we think the rams are going to succeed in 179 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.879 the NFC West than we can for why Christianity is true. And this is 180 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.519 in other words, there's something already that you are. I never call myself 181 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:43.840 a Christian apologist. I'm a Christian case maker. I make a case for 182 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.360 Christianity. But I think every Christian ought to be a Christian case maker. 183 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.519 It's about turning us in that direction. But you're already able to make a 184 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.159 case for something really well. I don't know what it is. It's probably 185 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.519 some hobby. If you're a woodworker, you know which tools you make a 186 00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:00.159 case for, which tools you ought to use, what kinds of cut you 187 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.559 ought to do. If you're somebody who's got other hobbies of collection, you 188 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:05.960 know what to collect, what's not of value, what is of value? 189 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:11.480 You're geeked out on something already. The question is are we that prepared to 190 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:15.480 share our faith? Do we know enough about what's true? And this is 191 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:18.279 something we don't have to, like, you know, teach our kids. 192 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:22.799 They'll catch it. They'll catch it if we just or somebody who is I 193 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:24.440 mean, I talked about this all the time with my boys growing up, 194 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.519 and my boys already know what I'm going to say on any number of topics. 195 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:30.559 They already know how I'm going to think about it, and I didn't 196 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.440 teach them. Really, Hey, guys, when this comes up, I 197 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:35.480 want you to think this way. They just watch me do it, and 198 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.720 because they watch they caught it. And so I think this is something we 199 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:41.840 can do for our children, even if not having to be all that intentional. 200 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:46.639 Let's just live our faith differently. Let's just think about our faith differently 201 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:48.519 and verbalize that. And it turns out our kids are going to catch that 202 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:52.480 anyway. That's right, That's exactly what we say. You talked about really 203 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:56.080 in Deuteronomy six. When you're going about your life, you're walking, you 204 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:58.919 know, in life, going down the road, you talk to your kids 205 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:03.039 about it, and that's exactly true. Things are coming up all the time, 206 00:13:03.159 --> 00:13:05.679 you know, whenever you look at what is happening in the culture, 207 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.320 what is happening in the news, every bit of it really reflects back to 208 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.960 the ultimate question about God and his existence and his interaction with us. I 209 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:16.399 think one of the big things that we have, though, that is a 210 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:22.519 real obstacle, is not whether or not in terms of critical thinking. So 211 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.120 we have a generation that doesn't even want to do any critical thinking. They 212 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.879 don't even believe that there is such a thing as truth. And we call 213 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:33.399 that postmodernism because during modernism you had a lot of people who would make arguments 214 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:39.559 using evolution or initially it was archaeology against Christianity. Now they don't bother to 215 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:41.639 do that. They just say that there is no truth, or I've got 216 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:43.639 a truth, You've got a truth. Everything is subjective. How do you 217 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:48.399 handle something like that, Well, I always tell people that everyone believes there 218 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.360 is a truth. It's if you think there's no truth, you believe that 219 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:54.000 that is true. So you believe the least one truth that there is no 220 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:58.159 truth. That's kind of self defeating. But the reality of it is is 221 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.960 it's how do we ground truth? So you're right, if all truth is 222 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.320 just a matter of my personal opinion. In other words, if I'm trying 223 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.279 to determine something as true, all I have to do is look inwardly. 224 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.919 Well, that's really fast. It's the lazy way to find truth. Doesn't 225 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:13.639 require any research. I just make a decision, and how I feel determines 226 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.799 what the truth is on this matter. But that doesn't require any effort at 227 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.240 all, because you can you have mediate access to your feelings. We have 228 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.679 to help people to realize that there are two forms of truth. There are 229 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:26.639 subjective truth claims and there are objective truth claims, and there's a difference between 230 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:30.399 those two. And we all agree that there are differences. We just haven't 231 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.720 thought about it carefully. This is why I write a book like Cold Case 232 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.440 Christianity. I'm trying to figure out how do I help people to see this 233 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.120 is not a matter of my personal opinion. I'm not a Christian because I 234 00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:41.919 like it better than other things. I don't even like it. Sometimes this 235 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.799 is a hard world view to live right. I mean, it makes demands 236 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:52.080 on me that are against my fallen nature. It prompts me, it encourages 237 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.159 me, It kicks me in their rear to do things that I wouldn't otherwise 238 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.600 do to hopefully be a better person. And that's not an easy project because 239 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:03.960 we aren't good by nature. We are pretty desperately fallen by nature. So 240 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:09.440 this is a hard worldview to maintain because you have to surrender constantly, get 241 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:11.519 to surrender your will to the will of God living in you. Think about 242 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.120 this. Of all the theistic worldviews out there, ours is the one in 243 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.039 which God does not just fight alongside you if you join the team. God 244 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:26.600 does not just fight your battles. God resides in you. Very different, 245 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:28.960 very different claim. And so that just means we have to get out of 246 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.759 the way and let God. Is God alive in us? Is Jesus alive 247 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.679 in us? And that's a very different kind of claim. So so for 248 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:41.759 me, I'm helping young people to say, okay, look, if you 249 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:45.639 are the determiner of the truth, like you say, for example, chocolate 250 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:50.080 chip cookies are the best dessert, Okay, well that's a subjective claim because 251 00:15:50.120 --> 00:15:54.480 you, as the subject, are making it true. Now a different kind 252 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.639 of claim I snia is it is the cure for tuberculosis. Okay, that's 253 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.440 a claim that I don't determine it, I don't make it true by believing 254 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:03.240 it, because if that was the case, I could say I'd rather take 255 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:07.600 Nike Weill. Niquill is now the cure for a TV. Now it turns 256 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.960 out Nike Weill isn't the cure for t because the subject doesn't get to determine 257 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.240 it. That's determined by the object known as is andia is it is at 258 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:19.799 the cure. So that's an objective claim about reality. It's not subjective, 259 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:25.639 like chocolate chip cookies are the best dessert. It's objective that I andia is 260 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:30.039 it is the cure for tuberculosis. And we have to make the determination which 261 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:33.960 claims in the world around us are just a matter of opinion, subjective determined 262 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.840 by subjects, even groups of subjects, or are the objective. So the 263 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.320 claim God exists it might be a false claim, but it's not a subjective 264 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.200 claim. I cannot make God exists by changing my mind. I cannot keep 265 00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:49.799 God from existing by changing my mind. He either exists or he doesn't. 266 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:55.759 It's grounded in the object known as God. Now there are false objective claims 267 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.399 as a matter of fact. Once you determined that a claim is objective rather 268 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.840 than subjective, the only thing left to do is determine if it's true or 269 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.480 false. And by the way, it's stupid for us to get online and 270 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:10.240 battle with people over subjective opinions. Who cares, But we ought to be 271 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:14.680 getting online and arguing with people about or at least encouraging people to look at 272 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.160 the truth when it's an objective. If someone's taking your family is taking a 273 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.920 night will to cure their tuberculosis, I would hope you would stop them and 274 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:22.920 say, well, whoa, whoa, that's not a matter of opinion. 275 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.319 That's actually not going to work because there's an objective truth about ice and I 276 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.400 is it. Well, that's true for all of us going forward. The 277 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:34.960 kinds of conversations we ought to be having with our young people are about those 278 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:41.279 objective claims about reality. God exists. That's an objective claim. Might be 279 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:44.440 true, but it's objective. What's left to do determine if it's true or 280 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.759 false. Jesus is the way, the only way to God. That's an 281 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.440 objective that's not an opinion. I can't make it so by changing my mind. 282 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:53.400 I can't keep it from being so by changing my mind. It's an 283 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:56.920 objective claim about reality. It might be false, but we ought to be 284 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.640 talking about those things with our students to make sure they know the difference between 285 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.880 subjective and objective claims and how to determine what. Yeah, we want to 286 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.720 investigate this to see does God exist? Is the Bible? Why would I 287 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:12.599 write a book like Cold Case Christianity. I'm writing it because I think that 288 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:21.160 Christianity is demonstrably true. It's an objective claim. Christianity is true is something 289 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:23.400 that our kids need to know. It is a matter of opinion, because 290 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.920 yeah, you're right, we are. We are getting lazier and lazier, 291 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:30.359 and because of that, we are no longer looking outward. If I said, 292 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:36.599 you know, I could either earn a doctorate and become an anesthesiologist by 293 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:41.000 simply wanting it and trusting my own opinions about the medications, or do I 294 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.720 need to go to school to learn what is objectively true about those medications? 295 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.200 Well? Which of those two kinds of doctors do you want? Yes? 296 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.640 I think in the end it's much easier. I can become a doctor tomorrow 297 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.799 if I can just will it. But I'm going to take you ten years 298 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:57.559 to do it. If it's there's a subjective truths that I need to learn, 299 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.240 can you, so you can see kind of why young people are more 300 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:04.880 inclined to just look for those truths that are grounded internally because they're immediately accessible, 301 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.799 they're easy to grab and I'm just a matter of opinion. So that's 302 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.759 why I think we're at in the culture, and we just need to help 303 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.480 our students to see the difference between those two kinds of truths. Yes, 304 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:18.319 that is exactly right, and that is a key thing that it affects all 305 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:21.319 aspects of our life. As you point out, it's the easy path to 306 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:23.000 take to say, well, you know, we're not going to even debate 307 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:26.599 the truth anymore. We're just going to go with what I feel like. 308 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:30.079 And that's an important thing because when we talk about the difference with Christianity is 309 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.759 that God is, you know, not there finding necessarily even finding your battles 310 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.839 for you, but he's there in you, working in you. And so 311 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:45.720 there is a spiritual aspect of it. And how do we balance that that 312 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:52.119 feeling that we have the directions that we are trying to go. We have 313 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.799 to balance that against some objective standard. I think that's you know, we 314 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:00.960 don't want to have simply a rational knowledge of odd I know, about God 315 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.960 and that type of thing. We're not looking at the Bible from that standpoint, 316 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.880 but we are looking at it from the standpoint as you mentioned before, 317 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:11.200 we need to question as to whether or not what we believe is actually true, 318 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.440 and we shouldn't be afraid to question that because the Bible can stand on 319 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.680 its own if we examine it. Yeah, so that's that's one of the 320 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.079 things we see. Many religions will say, well, you know, just 321 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.559 pray about this, is this uh that that you know this is uh this 322 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:30.599 book is true or whatever, and then you get kind of a subjective feeling 323 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:33.279 about that. But again, that's one of the things that I like about 324 00:20:33.279 --> 00:20:36.200 what you do with cold case Christianity. You look at it and you say, 325 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:40.480 well, because this is rooted in factual, historical claims, we can 326 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:47.519 evaluate this and that actually builds our faith. It doesn't. It doesn't become 327 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.599 just an intellectual exercise. But you have to have the two things go together. 328 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.279 You can fall off on one side or the other that horse, can't 329 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:59.599 you. You said it perfectly because when I was growing up, I was 330 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.599 not out by believers. I'm in Los Angeles County. I don't know if 331 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:03.759 that's just the way it was back in those days. I didn't know a 332 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.279 lot of Christians. I was never asked by our friend to go to church 333 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.920 that kind of thing. But my dad, who was a very communed atheist 334 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:12.160 just like me. He was a cop, just like I was. First 335 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.559 I reopened as a goal case detective a couple of his cases, so I 336 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.839 definitely knew what he was going through and I had his appeal. For the 337 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.839 most part. I would go to church with my wife if she wanted to 338 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:27.599 go to church for Christmas or Easter. But I was completely disconnected and thought 339 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.200 it was all just you know, rubbish. Okay, so that's fine. 340 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.559 That's my dad. Now, when he remarried, he remarried a woman who 341 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.519 quickly became a Mormon, and they had six children together. So all my 342 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.920 brothers and sisters are raised lds. And you're absolutely right. I think all 343 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:45.720 of us, as humans, we do have a high appreciation for evidence. 344 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.359 We do. The question is what are we accepting as evidence? And for 345 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.160 a lot of us, you know, talk about this in the book. 346 00:21:51.160 --> 00:21:55.039 There's two forms of evidence, direct evidence and indirect evidence. Direct evidence is 347 00:21:55.039 --> 00:22:00.839 simply eyewitness testimony. Indirect evidence is everything else. DNA is indirect evidence. 348 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.160 By the way, indirect evidence is also known as that ugly word circumstantial evidence. 349 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:10.559 But indirect evidence is everything you think is really hard evidence. Those category 350 00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:15.160 is hard evidence. There's just eyewitness statements and everything else. Everything else includes 351 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.839 DNA fingerprints, a blood spatter, a gunshot residue, whatever material evidence you 352 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:23.519 want to compare. That's all indirect evidence. Now, most people when they're 353 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:29.200 thinking about their theistic worldview, they are evidentialists. But what they're accepting as 354 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:33.559 evidence is an experience, a personal it's a direct evidence. I directly saw 355 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.559 this happen in my life, and I can't imagine that being a coincidence. 356 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:41.559 So therefore that served as me as evidence that my theistic worldview is true. 357 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.640 And everyone, if you're a Hindu, of Buddhist, a Muslim, Behi, 358 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.000 a Mormon, everyone does this. Okay. Now, I hope that 359 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:55.880 we're not doing that too, because if you were encountering somebody who's a Mormon 360 00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:59.880 who says, yeah, this is true because I had this experience, would 361 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:03.279 consider that evidence. Look, we've had experiences too, I get that, 362 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:08.279 but we had to measure our experiences against the evidence and the claims of the 363 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:11.839 book I'm not saldy that my Mormon family has had experiences. My question is 364 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:17.839 do they really indicate that Mormonism is true? You can attest experiences can come 365 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.119 from any number. Sometimes I've seen even Christians say what seems to me like 366 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:26.160 a coincidence as an evidence that God exists, that Christianity is true. We 367 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:30.039 can do better than that. If you find yourself sharing your faith in pretty 368 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:33.519 much the same way a Mormon would share theirs, you're probably not doing it 369 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.799 right, because it turns out you don't believe that Mormonism is true. Yet 370 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.039 here you are sharing your faith in the exact same way. I had an 371 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:45.759 experience that demonstrated or I was raised in the faith. These are the most 372 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.920 popular ways that people express their belief. We can do better. We could 373 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:51.680 say, you know what, I had this experience, and then I started 374 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:55.039 to investigate to see if Christianity might be the best ecumentation for it. And 375 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.119 here's why I discovered about Christianity, all of these details about the objective life 376 00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:03.119 of Jesus of Nazareth in the first century and how he rose from the dead. 377 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:07.759 That look, you can do the same thing with the Book of Mormon. 378 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.480 You will find no corroboration for the Book of Mormon. Remember, the 379 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:15.920 Book of Mormon actually describes a thousand years of history on the North American continent, 380 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:21.079 of which there is not a single bit of verifiable confirmation on any of 381 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:22.519 it. Now, you've got to think about that for a second. I 382 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.640 don't expect, you know, I know, I have a realistic view of 383 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:32.039 corroborative evidence as a detective. A corroborative evidence just gives you a small percentage 384 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.880 of what the eyewitness says occurred. You cannot it's not a video. You 385 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.519 don't have videos from the first century. So the question then becomes, you 386 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:44.279 know, I don't expect to get a huge percentage of the testimony corroborated, 387 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.200 but I expect to get something corroborated. And when I see that there's nothing 388 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:52.640 corroborated in a Holy Book, I'm suspicious. You ought to be also, 389 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:55.880 So I think we have to help our students to realize that, hey, 390 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.039 we are we believe this is true, but not because we want it to 391 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:00.200 be true. Because here's what happening. And you know this, David. 392 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.039 The times are changing and it's not going to be easy to live as a 393 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:10.079 young Christian and a culture that now not only rejects Christians, but rejects the 394 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:14.400 teaching of the Master. And and trust me, when they reject the teaching 395 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.880 of your Jesus, they are rejecting your Jesus. And the teaching of Jesus 396 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.240 is no longer acceptable in a culture that has changed their views on gender identity, 397 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:26.480 on marriage, on the sanctity of life, and those things that Jesus 398 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:30.359 taught clearly about. And and you're going if you're going to say, well, 399 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:33.559 you know, Paul didn't understand what we understand today. What do you 400 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.519 think that book is? Do you think that book is the word of God? 401 00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.960 Do you think that God doesn't there's going to be a new revelation about 402 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:44.160 how we ought to live where let's look for the new revelation, But it's 403 00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:47.400 not it's going to be from God, and I don't see it. The 404 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:52.880 last spokespeople for God are still recorded in scripture, and until God, I 405 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:55.839 don't think God has changed his mind about any of that stuff. So I 406 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.559 think it's important for us to teach our kids that this is true. And 407 00:25:59.559 --> 00:26:02.880 I'll tell you one last story about that. My son David is an ansthusiologist 408 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:08.160 and he's a pediatric as thesiologist, and when he was in his biochemistry undergrad 409 00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:11.359 work, he will tell you that he, you know, wasn't probably living 410 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.039 like a Christian, but he said, because he knew from all the stuff 411 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.640 we had studied. As a young man, I was a youth pastor. 412 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:21.519 I was his youth pastor, and we always talked about the science behind our 413 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:25.400 beliefs, and he knew in a DNA lab he was working. He said, 414 00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:27.000 you know, I knew even if I wasn't living it, I knew 415 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.759 it was true because I knew there was no way to explain this stuff I 416 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:33.759 was working, unless, of course, there was a mind behind the code, 417 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.960 and he knew that there was. He was stuck with God, right, 418 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.720 And that's that's that's all we do for our kids is to make them 419 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.519 really uncomfortable in the season of their running, because that's coming probably for a 420 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.039 lot of our kids. And I'm fine if my kids run. I want 421 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:52.440 them to be really uncomfortable while they're doing it. And it doesn't need be 422 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.359 from my nagging. It just needs to be from what they know is true. 423 00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.119 That's right. I remember, and I don't remember the guy's name, 424 00:26:59.240 --> 00:27:00.880 his country, and Western Star. He said, Yeah, I grew up 425 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.799 in a Christian family, he said, didn't keep me from sending kept me 426 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:08.000 from enjoying it. Yeah, exactly. You know what I think in some 427 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.000 ways, well, and he might be doing more sarcastically, right, but 428 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:15.920 the reality of it is is that we ought not get comfortable with our misbehavior, 429 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.559 right, And so that's all you can do for your kids is make 430 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.039 them uncomfortable with their misbehavior. You're probably doing a good good job for your 431 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:23.759 kids, right. So well, you know, you mentioned the archaeology stuff, 432 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.000 and I think that was one of the key things. And you know, 433 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:27.920 you look at the Book of Mormon. It came out at a time 434 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:32.759 when one of the major criticisms of the Bible was that this stuff is all 435 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:34.440 made up. There's no such thing as the Hittite tribe and you know, 436 00:27:34.759 --> 00:27:37.839 and all the rest of this stuff. Right, And then they started looking 437 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:42.920 and doing archaeology and they started finding all this stuff. I remember taking my 438 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:48.519 kids to the British Museum and we saw the big relief up there about sannak 439 00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:52.079 Rib and the story that about how he attacked Jerusalem and other things like that. 440 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:57.400 They had a big they had a large chip. Actually it was a 441 00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:03.279 small part of the one. The columns, they are the Temple of Diana 442 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.440 and Ephesus. And yet you know, they found these things by following the 443 00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.960 biblical record. You know, they would say, well, it says we 444 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:12.240 know where this thing is, and it says that it's over here, so 445 00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.160 we would follow it that way. And so they were able to find these 446 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.920 things and corroberate that. But but let's talk a little bit about the reliability 447 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:23.039 of the witnesses. You know, what is it that makes these witnesses reliable? 448 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.200 Yeah, so I think that when we look at eyewitness testimony, it's 449 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.880 an important part of our case. It is our case. People will say, 450 00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:33.799 what evidence do you have for the for the for the resurrection? And 451 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.000 when I hear that, it exposes for me at least, they clearly don't 452 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.559 trust that what the gospel record is true. They want some other source. 453 00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:48.759 But could you imagine to have four ancient sources that describe the same event. 454 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:51.920 That's not bad, of course, if you don't if you don't trust any 455 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:53.640 of them, well the question then becomes, well why don't you trust them? 456 00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:56.039 So I think the biggest work for me, and I was one of 457 00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:00.000 those guys. Okay, yeah, you have some ancient records, but they're 458 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.000 all Christian records. Well, hold on, think about this for a second. 459 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.880 It's not as though these are. That's not a fair argument to leverage 460 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:10.920 against the Gospel's gonna be give an example that let's say, and I use 461 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:12.960 this in the book Calecase Christianity. Let's say I'm working at bank robbery, 462 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.079 and in this particular robbery, a guy walks into the bank and he walks 463 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.400 up to the teller and he's got a quiet demand note robbery, right, 464 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.960 And as he walked up, he wasn't making a big scene, he was 465 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:25.480 just getting in line. And as he was in line, there's a woman 466 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:27.960 behind the other side of the of the of the office, who's behind a 467 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.519 desk, who's the assistant manager, and she happens to recognize this guy right 468 00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.279 away from high school. And she's like, you know, oh, I 469 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:37.480 want to talk to this guy when he gets done with the teller, because 470 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:41.400 he was a great guy, you know, all star athlete, on top 471 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.759 grade, you know, just I want to see what he made of himself, 472 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.559 what happened in his life. Well, now, this dude isn't doing 473 00:29:47.559 --> 00:29:51.400 a bank robbery, and she looks at her co workers face and it's clear 474 00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:55.720 this guy's doing a robbery in real time. And she is shocked because she 475 00:29:55.799 --> 00:29:59.000 knew this guy's was called him Robert Smith. She knew Robert Smith in high 476 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:02.319 school. And now when the whole thing is done and I come to the 477 00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:07.400 bank to do the interviews, should I interview her about Robert Smith? Well, 478 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.640 no, she's she's biased. She thinks Robert Smith is a bank robber. 479 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.920 You can't trust anything, she says, she's a Robert Smithian. She 480 00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:15.960 thinks, oh, look, that's not that's a stupid approach, right, 481 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:18.000 because you're gonna say, well, we'll hang on. She didn't start off 482 00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:23.039 thinking that Robert Smith was a bank robber. She arrived at that decision because 483 00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:26.200 she saw it. It was after it happened that she's like, now I'm 484 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:30.680 in he's a bank robber. The same thing happens with the Gospels. It's 485 00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.960 not as Zold these people, especially Matthew, this guy named Levi, who 486 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.000 is not even liked by anybody. He is a he is a tax collector. 487 00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:42.559 This dude is not looking for the Messiah. He's not a disciple of 488 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.400 John. The Baptist. He's not part of the original group, but got 489 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:49.880 jumped into with Jesus. He's a guy who was on the outside looking in, 490 00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:52.960 but after watching that stuff for three years, he's like, dude, 491 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.200 I'm in now, I'm a Christian. Now can I interview Matthew? Well, 492 00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:00.599 he didn't start off believing that Jesus was the Christ, but he ended 493 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:04.000 up there. And it's why on the basis of observation, just like the 494 00:31:04.079 --> 00:31:07.279 lady in the bank. So we have to at least ask the question now. 495 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:11.240 So that's first of all, don't throw out the gospels as though they 496 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.000 can't be trusted. Let's test the gospels. I don't trust eyewitnesses. I 497 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.960 test them now. If they pass the test, I trust them. And 498 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.799 there's a four part test. Right. This is what we do in our 499 00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:26.039 jury instructions in California. It's thirteen questions that we allow jurors to ask when 500 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:32.000 they are considering eyewitness reliability on the stand. When those thirteen questions fall into 501 00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:33.640 four categories, you know, were they really there to see what they said 502 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.799 they saw the person who's testifying. Two? Can they be corroborated in some 503 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:41.039 way? And I have a like I said before, I have a reasonable 504 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:45.119 expectation about corroborative evidence. Three have they changed their story over time or they've 505 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:49.000 been honest and accurate? And four do they possess a bias? Those four 506 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:52.759 categories are really what we look at to see if an eyewitness is reliable. 507 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.279 Now, as I did that, it took the better part of a year 508 00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.440 when I was first examining Christianity. I have a Bible here in my shelf 509 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:02.400 that I bought, a Pew Bible. I walked into a church, this 510 00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:07.839 pastor. I had been avoiding it for many years. I hadn't been to 511 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:10.480 this church for anything any other reason, and I really had never stepped foot 512 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:15.119 in an Evangelical church for anything other than like a wedding or maybe a funeral. 513 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:19.119 I don't remember if I had attended a funeral, So I never really 514 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.480 had no idea what was going to expect. My family growing up were kind 515 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.400 of like cultural Catholics, like holiday Catholics, so I knew what a mass 516 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:29.880 looked like, and I thought it was nonsense. To be honest with you, 517 00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:30.880 I just as an atheist, you know, I was never comfortable. 518 00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:37.920 But I walked into this church, this pastor seemed decidedly regular, you know, 519 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.759 just like a regular guy. And he said that Jesus was the smartest 520 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:45.720 man who ever lived. And that provoked me. It provoked me to buy 521 00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:49.599 a Pew Bible, you know, when those ones they self refused, just 522 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.319 a cheap six dollars seven dollars bible. And I started to read the Gospels, 523 00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:58.400 and I'd applied those four aspects of eyewitness reliability to the Gospel authors. 524 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.920 Do they pass the test? I think they are written early enough in history 525 00:33:02.319 --> 00:33:07.640 to have been written by people who were present and in front of people who 526 00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.039 were present to fact check them. I don't think that they're written in the 527 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:14.519 second century. I think they are very early in history, and in the 528 00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:16.240 book I try to make a case for why they are early in trust me. 529 00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:19.599 That's one of the objections your kids are going to hear if they're in 530 00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.400 a Bible class in a secondary university. They're going to come out thinking these 531 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:27.559 things were written in the third century and that is not true. Two, 532 00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:31.839 that they can be corroborated in any number of internal and external evidences, of 533 00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:37.240 which archaeology is just one. There are many other ways you could corroborate the 534 00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.079 claims of the scriptures, and I go through those in the book. Three, 535 00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:42.440 I don't think they've changed over time. I don't think the story, 536 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:51.920 the miraculous story of Jesus is a is a like an exaggeration, a collection 537 00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:57.480 of additions over time, where they added all the supernatural stuff. Don't believe 538 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.240 that. I can show why that's the case in the book. Well, 539 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:04.880 and finally, I don't think they possessed an ulterior motive because there are only 540 00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:08.280 three motives for any misbehavior. I talk about those in the book, and 541 00:34:08.519 --> 00:34:13.800 they don't possess those motives. So again, if I'm looking, can you 542 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.400 find a way? This is what's so beautiful about our faith system, David. 543 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:21.559 You know that there is enough reason to reject the scriptures if you so 544 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.239 choose to do it, because God is gracious and he's not going to bully 545 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:28.360 you into your faith. As a matter of fact, it wouldn't be genuine 546 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:31.000 unless you had the freedom to reject it. And God has given us that 547 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:37.880 dangerous free agency. Why Because God is love? Not God can love, 548 00:34:37.039 --> 00:34:40.760 God creates love. No, It says that God is love because he's tryune 549 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:45.119 in nature, has been in an eternal love relationship from the beginning of time 550 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:49.719 and the tryune nature of God, and he is love. If he's going 551 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.679 to create a world, he's going to create a world where love is possible, 552 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:57.000 because that's what a loving God would do. But the problem with a 553 00:34:57.000 --> 00:34:59.840 world where love is possible is that it has to be a love what they 554 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:05.559 dangerous prerequisite called free agency. You cannot love if you're not free to hate. 555 00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:08.840 That's the problem. Now, what gracious God does is he creates a 556 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:14.119 world in which there is free agency and then provides you with a book with 557 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:17.360 all of the guidelines so you will not abuse your free agency. Now you 558 00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:22.079 can choose not to read the book, but then when you abuse your free 559 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.400 agency and do something despicable, that's not on God. It is logically impossible 560 00:35:25.440 --> 00:35:30.719 to create a world in which love can emerge without first creating a world in 561 00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.280 which we have free agency or not just robots. You know, when your 562 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.039 doll says I love you, it doesn't really love you. It's just programmed 563 00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:40.840 to say that. So it turns out if you want beings who can really 564 00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:45.559 truly freely love, you have to create the dangerous world we live in. 565 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:49.840 And that's what God does. But he's given us the guidelines so we don't 566 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.880 abuse our free agency. So He's done everything you would expect a loving God 567 00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.679 to do. Parents do the same thing. And so I think in the 568 00:35:57.800 --> 00:36:00.119 end, I have to look at that world on living in and say, 569 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:04.719 yeah, I mean I've got a Bible that I can choose to reject because 570 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.760 I have free agency, that dangerous prerequisite. But when I do that, 571 00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:12.199 that's not on God. That's on me and my rebellious nature. And what 572 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.159 I like that you do. You know, a lot of times people look 573 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:19.880 at external sources. And again there's external sources that do help to corroborate this 574 00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.280 when we look at archaeology or other things like that, but you you really 575 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:28.840 look at the Bible itself and you know, corroborating itself, and and uh, 576 00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:31.840 you know, because we can fall on the trap if we're so reliant 577 00:36:32.039 --> 00:36:37.320 on external things of what they used to call higher criticism. You know, 578 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.679 we're going to take something and we're going to from an elevated position of science 579 00:36:40.760 --> 00:36:44.360 or whatever, we're going to take a look at the Bible. And of 580 00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:49.719 course, you know, many prominent scientists were very active Christians. They had 581 00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:54.440 no problem with the critical thinking of it, and they would look at it, 582 00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.480 you know, as God says and Isaiah, come let us reason together, 583 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:01.840 right and yeah and so, and that that is the key thing. 584 00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.400 We don't check our reason at the door, and we don't. But there 585 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.360 still is an aspect of faith, as you pointed out, it's not a 586 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:14.599 blind faith. It is a confident expectation going back to hope, as you 587 00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:16.599 talked about before. And so I think that is the key thing. And 588 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:21.199 I think it's very important what you do in cold case Christianity in terms of 589 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.880 looking at, you know, the evidence that we have that is within the 590 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:30.880 Bible, within the New Testament specifically, and how that corroborates from a rational 591 00:37:30.920 --> 00:37:34.119 point of view, from the types of things that you would do as a 592 00:37:34.119 --> 00:37:37.280 detective who, as you said, in a cold case, you can't all 593 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:40.519 the evidence that you're going to have has already been collected by people who are 594 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:45.199 no longer around. The witnesses are no longer around. And that really is 595 00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:49.599 what we all have to do in terms of investigating this. We all have 596 00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:52.239 to do a cold case Christianity. I think I think you're I think you're 597 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.719 right. I think if we can help our kids to do it, like 598 00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:00.280 I don't want to suggest in any way that my superior intellectual ability it leads 599 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:04.280 me to this conclusion. Look, it's all God, top down, and 600 00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.960 what part of it is is am I going. That's why the first chapter 601 00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:09.679 of our book talks about the first skill that any detective has to have, 602 00:38:09.800 --> 00:38:13.760 and that is to enter the room with your hands empty. Do not make 603 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:19.639 up your mind before you get there, surrender your prideful nature to because we 604 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.800 all think I already know and if we don't. If we do that, 605 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:27.079 we're going to end up with the case where you already arrive at the conclusion 606 00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:30.480 you started with, and you ignored everything in between because you came in thinking 607 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:32.320 you or don't be a know at all. It's what I call it, 608 00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:36.119 don't be a know at all? You have to at least suggest you know. 609 00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:37.400 That's why that's the hardest part, I think, David, about our 610 00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:43.920 worldview is that it begins with the thing that it is. Let's put it 611 00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:45.960 this way. I just wrote a book called The Truth and True Crime. 612 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.639 It comes out next year, and I've examined in it the nature of human 613 00:38:49.760 --> 00:38:52.559 humans, biblical anthropology, and I also look at it in terms of what 614 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:58.360 new studies show. I'm impressed by the fact that, by the last thirty 615 00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:05.920 five years, sociological studies and researchers have discovered that there's one human attribute above 616 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:10.000 all human attributes that will change your life for the better and contribute to human 617 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:14.719 flourishing. It'll make you a better employer, a better employee. It'll make 618 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:17.079 you a far better student. You'll be able to determine truth from error far 619 00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:22.159 better. You'll have deeper, more connected relationships. You'll have better better mental 620 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:25.199 health, better well being, and better physical health. You'll live longer if 621 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:30.719 you adopt this attitude. What is that weird attitude? It's this thing that 622 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:37.400 researchers, secular researchers, not Christians, call humility. Oh what a surprise. 623 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:39.679 Well, it turns out that's an ancient attribute which is all over the 624 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:45.679 pages of scripture. Is that every problem isn't us being prideful and thinking we 625 00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:50.079 know when if we could just now, here's the problem with our worldview. 626 00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:52.639 It begins with an act of humility, that first act that says, you 627 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:57.920 know what I am exactly what scripture describes. I'm not all that great, 628 00:39:58.559 --> 00:40:01.519 and there is a God and I'm not him. That's that first act of 629 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:07.599 bending your knee leads to a life predicated on humility, and every thing you 630 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:13.760 adopt from scripture will be an act of humility. So I think in the 631 00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.239 end, that's the problem we have, and it's hard in a culture which 632 00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:20.519 is all about me, me, me, me me. Everyone's social media 633 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:22.679 profile, who's got more likes, who's got more views? What is your 634 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:25.639 bios say about you? Are you important? Do you have a little check 635 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:29.719 by your name? This is a world we're living in right now where just 636 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:34.360 the opposite of humility is advanced. We have to help our kids to see 637 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:36.920 that the humility is still important. Yeah, that's true. You know, 638 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.000 when we look at politics that we talk about a lot here on this program, 639 00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:45.000 people get really scared when they see politicians who the cecular press, and 640 00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:49.079 they get really scared when they see a politician talking about God. And I 641 00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.760 said, well, you need to understand this person really is a Christian, 642 00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.960 that they understand they're going to be accountable to God and that they are not 643 00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.519 God. You ought to be concerned about the politicians who think they'll never answer 644 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:04.400 to God and are proud enough to think that they are they need to rule 645 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.880 the world. You know, that's that's what really should should put fear into 646 00:41:07.880 --> 00:41:10.280 people's heart. Pride is a very dangerous thing. It's something that seems to 647 00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:14.880 drive most of people in public life, and most of us if we're if 648 00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.519 we're honest about it as well. It's a constant fight against pride, regardless 649 00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:22.719 of who we are, but especially for the politicians that are constantly promoting themselves. 650 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:24.360 Such an excellent book. Thank you so much for coming on, Jay 651 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:30.320 Warner Wallace, and tell us where people can find your podcast, your website, 652 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:34.280 the books that you've got as well. Yeah, we're at Coldcase Christianity 653 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:37.199 dot com and if you want, we are offering a great package with this 654 00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:40.079 new book. We have just a tenth anniverse we were publishing right now and 655 00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:45.119 we want people to get better trained as casemakers. We've got an entirely free 656 00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:49.000 ten and a half hour training course that's available with the book and you can 657 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:52.639 find that at Cold Case Christianity book dot com. Okay, great, Cold 658 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.960 Case Christianity book dot com. Thank you so much for what you do. 659 00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.360 It's been a fascinating talk with you, view with you, and I really 660 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.679 enjoyed the book when I read it years ago. Thank you so much. 661 00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:05.400 Great to have. Thank you, David. I appreciate it. You having 662 00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:07.480 me. I appreciate you so much. Thank you, have a good day. 663 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:47.320 We'll be right back. Folks. In a world of deceit, telling 664 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:53.079 the truth is a revolutionary act. You are listening to The David Night Show.