Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about
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I The Team House with Your Hopes, Jack Murphy and David Bark. Welcome
to episode two hundred and sixty eight of The Team House. I'm Jack here
with Dave and our guest on tonight's show is Melvin Downs, who served in
the British military, starting as a boy soldier at age sixteen, went all
the way up and retired as a Sergeant major in the Special Air Service.
We're really excited to have him on the show tonight. You guys can find
him on Instagram at Melvin Downs. That's n E l v y n d
w nes Go check him out and you'll find links in the description to his
Instagram and also his YouTube channel that's gonna be popping probably next week the day
if you want to. Yeah. Well, first off, welcome and we
really appreciate you being here. Thanks, Thanks Dave, Thanks Team House,
and it's great to be able to chat to you guys, especially across the
pond. Yeah, exactly. Before we get started, we just want to
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Melvins. Oh Melvine, I want to jump right into it and ask you
about, you know, your origins and kind of your upbringing, how you
came to be, what your upbringing as a kid was like, and how
that sort of propelled you towards military service. Yes, sure, it's about
to start with my dad. He came from Jamaica in the early fifties,
nineteen fifty two from the Ring from the wind rush era, and he came
to rebuild the UK after the Second World War and then he met my mom
and met here in Stoke Contrent. Now, if you don't know about UK
Stow Contrent, it's in the Midlands, it's in the art of the country
and at that time, especially in Stoke Contrent, there where my dad settled
because he went down the pits being a minor, and the area he settled
in was an area called Bental Lee. Now Bentley was a large councils.
I was in a state which I think is a bit like the projects over
your way, but it was a brand new one. It was a massive
estate. Actually when it was first got built in the fifties, it was
the largest in Europe. It was massive. But the difference was in this
estate it was just mainly white working class because this is back back in the
fifties. And he met the mom and their parents at that time didn't like
the idea of a black guy going out, a Jamaican black guy going out
with a white girl. And they were both young, very very young.
So she left home and he just went and made their way anyway. The
dad worked harready settled in this estate and that's where I was brought up and
Bentley Council. I was in the States. But what was a well,
not a problem, but what I was looked at as different because there was
literally an am fault of black people and on that state, and there was
something like eleven twelve people on that state and it was mainly white working class
miners. And you know, wild working people, and so there we we
settled. There was a lot especially you know, I was born in sixty
four, so by the time I got there it was sixty seven. I
can remember it. It was there was a lot of racial tension back in
them days. So I had a lot of bullying, a lot of odd
knocks growing up. And so then the dad, we got the Auspurgls,
We had petitions, people didn't want us there. I think it was just
it was just a totally different time and a differentia. You know. However,
I just I'm thankful that the positive was it made me the person who
I am because I literally going to school in my year there was like one
other well in the entire school, there's one other black guy and an Asian
girl. So that's that's what it was the case of. So from a
very young age, I was bullied and I had to fight back, and
my dad told me fight back. But apart from that, you know,
it was just that time and I made the best friends there. And the
way I look at it, if it was the other way around, if
it was just a couple of white guys or a mixed race family living in
a large black area, it'd be exactly the same. You get picked up,
picked on until you know, people knew who you were. And then
my dad especially he's a really respectful person, but he'd also stand up for
himself. So even he you know, it'd fight his own he'd fight his
battles and he'd be proud and all that. So growing up was quite difficult,
but like I said, it made me the person they am, and
I made really good friends there. I'm not knocking the place. I still
love the area. It was just a total deaf Interia. And and the
way I look at it, if you go back at thirty years from then
or whatever, you know, women didn't even have the I don't think,
you know, and let alone gay people being welcomed in anywhere and so on.
So it was just a different time and a different place. But as
I said, so growing up it was quite difficult, but you had to
learn to be fight, fight and look after yourself and basically that was it
or you just get buoyed and trodden on. Anyway. I always want to
go in the in the military because did Jamaicans. They loved the Queen and
it was the Motherland, that's what they called, you know, the Caribbeans,
and he used to make me stand up whenever the national anthem was on
TV and then I'd be watching all the trooping of the colors. And from
a very young age, I just loved anything to do with the military.
So that was it. I was on it. So eleven years old,
I joined what was known as the Army Cadet. Say it's a bit like
the Scouts, but your fire weapons as well. But it's ut all military
minded. So you learn navigation skills, you learn survivalor you go camping,
you learn medical skill and to me, that's what I really enjoyed, because
I'm not at all academic. In the school we went back in the day
you just did what you want really, so that made sense to me.
It was doing something what I thought, Okay, this is what's needed in
life, whereas trying Why do you not know about geology or geography? You
know what sort of stones this and that? So that was me. I
was looked on going in the military, so I joined the Army codecs at
sixteen, I mean sorry, at eleven, and then at sixteen when once
I left school two weeks later, I was in the British Army as a
sixteen year old, you do what's known as it's a junior leader's battalion or
junior infantry, so you's a soldier, but you can't go on operational tours.
So instead of doing if you joined when you were say eighteen, you
would spend something like eighteen weeks basic training, whereas as a sixteen year old
you did one year's basic training and there's you know, basic training. It's
tough, so we had a lot longer time of it. But I loved
every minute of it and actually got to give you a rank system there.
So I made it to Solgiant major in the Junior Army, and that was
because I was in the cadet, so I already had a I already knew
some basic drill and basic tactics and some weapons and navigation and first aid,
so I really shone there anyway. From sixteen then I went to my parent
unit, which was an infantry unit, and back in the day, you
go to their normal infantry unit which was around your area. So I joined
the Staffordure Regiment and it's all guys from the Midlands where I am from Stoke
on Trent and Birmingham area, so you sort of know people. It's like
the old Pal's regiment they starting. It's not as much now. They've sort
of change a bit like the American system where you can be from all over
the place, but here it was mainly guys from more a certain area of
the UK, about say seventy percent BEE from that area. So I love
that and I loved everything about the middle of my first posting was you brought
it. So I had a year out there and to me, it's fantastic.
This was a seventeen year old and when we moved back to the UK
as an eighteen year old, and then we started training up to go to
Northern Ireland. So I went on the first operational tour of Northern Ireland.
As ay, I was nineteen by the time we got there and back in
this time this is like nineteen eighty four. I was a natural close observation
platoon and what this meant just lying in bushes for up to ten days and
night so observing where terrorists lightly terrorist, I was just wearing reporting on them
and so on. So it was like a specialist platoon within the infantry and
I really enjoyed that. However, that was like the first taste of operations,
and then I ended up losing a good friend and a couple of others,
so then you realize, wow, this is for real. But it
was really unusual because Northern Ireland, it's part of Great Britain, and you
could be walking and on street and everybody loves you, and then you cross
the road into another street and everybody ate you. Then you cross the over
road and so on, and there you are as a young soldier, you
just try and be neutral, keep the peace, and yeah, it's just
really confusing. Anyway, that was my first operational tour, and then that's
when I really got wind of the SAS because what used to happen. We'd
be lying in these observation posts, watching a terrorist house and just seeing for
activities, and then if we potentially sort we've seen something like maybe weapons moving
in and out and so on, we would pass up to our HQ and
then suddenly you'd have these other guys come in move us out. And these
guys turn up like with beards and everything, and they're like who it is,
and they go in there and then they take over the job if they
think it's going to go down. And then I found out these were the
sees I thought, right, this is what I want to be doing.
I want to go joining this. So that was my first time at any
indication of joining the Special Forces. But i'll tell you what happened later on
as I go through my career about why I got put off that. Anyway,
I came back from that first tour of Northern Ireland and then we went
to Germany, and that's like when the first time I've sort of started working
with Americans or met Americans, because we go down to American bases and you
had all the lovely px's and stuff like that. So it was like over
there for the Cold War. And then I went back to Northern Ireland for
a second tour, but this time I was a corporal, so I was
in charge of eight people. So the first time was a private and the
second time as a corporal. Anyway, in between this, we had a
lot of guys go for the SCS selection for my unit, but they'd only
ever been one guy getting before and one officer and I didn't know him.
And you know, we have lots and lots of guys trying, but very
very few get in. As I said, I was actually feared of a
person, but many go go for it, and then they come back with
excuses instead of just saying I wasn't good enough, I v w'd. They
come back with all the instructor and line meal, is this, that and
the other. And I remember this guy and he was a really good,
good guy and he got to the jungle phase and then he came back and
I said to him, right, I want to go for that, and
he said, no, you can't go for that. Now, I guess
why is that? He goes, oh, because you're black, but goes,
what's that got to do with it? And he said, wow,
we were called it's mainly in Northern Ireland under COVID. They have to hang
around the bars and blend in. Back in that day, there's no way,
you know, I am got ginger and threttles. Being black in Ireland
you got to be hard as nails. Yeah, So I thought, okay,
that's a fair point. So I never even thought about going for the
s S again until we had this officer came to our unit and he did
two years in the sees and I remember seeing him and he come to my
company and he was just so different than the normal officers. Normally, you
know, he gets some good offices. But in the British on we have
some officers they just turn up and they walking the dog and they're watching all
the troops doing their work and they they can. They're more concerned with doing
how good you are at drilling inspections and they've got a big shack on the
camp and they want make sure everything's immaculate and so on. This guy didn't
He didn't want any of that. He won't bothered with the bullshit and if
you were good at drill or how good the rooms were and how clean the
rooms were. All he was concerned is if you was if you could shoot,
move and communicate you as a good soldier on the ground. And he
was deferent. He was there with you all the time, and he really
inspired me. Anyway, he goes to me, this was after done a
second tour of duty an Ireland. He goes to me, why don't you
go for the SS And I told him the exact same story because I can't
say and he goes, why is that because of being black? And he
just stopped and I told him that, you know, I have to go
under cover an island and he just based out laughing, and he goes,
obviously you couldn't go sitting in a pub, you stick out there, but
you could be on the reactive side, the COVID side, and there's lots
more goes on in the will that than you think about. You should go
for it. So that was me then convinced. I'm like, right,
I'm going to go for this. So this is now about nineteen yeah and
nineteen eighty nine, and I've just done a second tour due to the Northern
Ireland, so that's two operational tours. Anyway, I put an on the
paperwork for go on the SCS selection, and by this time it's nineteen ninety
and then we was an armored Infantry regiment now because were based in Germany,
and we got the new armored fighting vehicle which was the Warrior at the time,
a bit like your Bradley. So I was a corporal in charge of
including myself ten people in this in this vehicle. And then we got told
about the Gulf War and all that was starting a stir up and we was
going to be going over there, So I withdrew my paperwork because I thought
there's no way I'm going to go on SS selection. My unit's going to
go to war, right, so I've bit from the paperwork. And then
we went over on the First Gulf, on the first called for in the
nineteen ninety and nineteen ninety one, and we was deployed over there. We
actually went and something like the August and we're just hanging around the desert doing
all the maneuvers and everything. And it was fantastic because they give you that
much ammunition because you were the build up for the war. And again we
was working with the US Marines at stages, you know, sometimes we'll have
changeovers, they coming out of vehicles. We were going there. Bradley's all
tactics together and it was great. I really enjoyed all that. And then
but we never thought that war would happen. However, then when it did,
even though it was only on you know, four days and nights,
it was short and sharp and that was like the first introduction to proper combat.
And on that I you know, I was in my first real engagement
and we lost a couple of guys. Saw it happing and you to be
too objective, So that was like a proper combat scenario. Anyway, we
came back from the ninety before before moving on, I mean, could you
tell us about that fire fight in what transpired there? Oh? Yeah,
Well, first of all, where it was we was told right, okay,
we was armed infantry. So as an infantry battalion in their armor fire
vehicles working close with the challenges tanks isn't the support. So you work together,
and then we get orders to go, we're going to be attacking this
position. So we dug in on the boarder first of all, watching all
the bombardma go off for about a month, and then it came right,
this is it. Now it's happening. We're going in. And remember all
the MRS's going in, all the rockets, and it was like it was
shaking our vehicle. So I meant in the back with all the lads and
I might just think how bad it is on that side, you know,
we were on this side anyway. We thought we was going to go to
do this attack, and when we got there there was nothing left. It
was just people wanting surrender and so on. And then that happened again and
we heard out weed over the radio that a couple of hour guys are being
injured in another company, and they had a full on attack. So in
a way, we was like, this, come on, we want to
have our share, you know what I mean. And we just thought nothing's
going to happen, because every time we got to somewhere it was over the
fierce, say forty eight hours, there was just nothing left and people just
wanting to surrender. And then we were told, right, okay, we're
going to this other area and instead of being a battalion size it's only in
a company size location. We're just going to attack that. But when we
got there, literally a tam being touched and there was hundreds and hundreds of
guys coming out of the trenches and most of them wanted to render. However,
we started getting incoming and the warriors, so then we were told move
forward and take the objective. And it was really confusing because then as you're
taking the objective, there was also people trying surrender and pockets or enemy firing.
What happened was and this is what I'd say, this is one of
the proudest he's still in my military career, because we was told that as
a commanders were told you have to be in the back of the vehicle when
you open them doors, so you can push the blokes out, make sure
everybody gets out when the when the incoming starts. But I said to my
blokes, I'll be at the door, at the front door, and I'll
be the first out. Make sure you guys follow me, because if you
don't and I come back, yeah, you know, I wouldn't to be
anyway. And one time he was getting the incoming. We could hear the
incoming on the on the vehicle and we knew it was getting a lot of
incoming. Got through an area and we did boors and I looked left and
right and you've got all your guys there, and then just started doing the
drills because as you know, when you practice drills that much, you forget
about all the other ship that's going on. You're just into that drill mode,
which is brilliant. Anyway, that was happening, and then we took
a position and people surrendering. Then about fifty meters to the right there's a
bunch of rakies waving white flags and wanting surrender. So my mate's vehicle went
to the side and it was bizarre what happened. And they were the buzzed
and they come around the side of their vehicle and as they come around the
side of their vehicle, these guys, somebody fired an RPG from this group
and they hit the sand and bounced up, and then the entire war edited.
One of the guys core mote, you know, went through them,
hit the vehicle but then went up in the air and it sort of exploded
in the air, and the two lads next to him right by and nothing
happened to him. They just thought it was the smokes gege is going off
and all white phosphorus. And so then that happened, you know, literally
fifteen meters away right in the front of us. So that was obviously taling
and and so on. So that was like the face full on combat because
before in Northern Ireland we've had things happening with terrorists, but not a proper
full on fire five yeah, yeah, it's bizarre. And then we carried
on moving forward. Then the next day we altered right on the Bazzer Road
and were told weight there and we didn't realize then but this was the end.
We got to know that was it, and it was just as the
Bazzer Road, literally it must have been hours before all the vehicles were moving
up for them Kuwait and the rakers. You're just trying and run up this
Bazzer road and get back into Iraq and Baghdad or wherever Basra and Baghdad.
So they were leaving Kuwait coming up and it's a six lane highway, so
they had all their tanks on the on their sides going up and their vehicles
and they stoleed all civilian vehicles, including coaches and whatever, and they were
all just literally bumper to bumper vehicles and you can imagine the coalisting forces just
went up and down the road and just blitzed everything. So it was a
really bizarre side. We stopped there and they were still burn in vehicles.
There's bodies everywhere. Most vehicles were completely bent out, but a lot of
them they've just been shot up and they haven't been touched. And we was
told right waiting ear now and the rumors come that it's gonna be the end
of the war, and that was it. And we just sat there and
so don't don't move because we've been dropping dropping our own mines around the area
that the air force had, so there's all mines everywhere. But you know
what it's like. Italian stop and I'm a corporal in charge of my tanker.
Like this, you're board and you start just looking around and checking everything
out. And yeah, it was just a really weird scene. That was
like a scene from how all these burnt out vehicles and you go on a
coach and this one coach all these dead I rackis that's but the vehicle ants
sat on fire, so that it was just like something from an horror movie.
You know. It was really weird because you hadn't seen anything like that
before. And it took about three days before the engineers come up, came
up and then moved all started moving all the vehicles and that off. So
that was it. So it's like a shortened shop. Yeah, war really
anyway, I came back from that now this is ninety one, and then
I thought, right, I'm going to go straight on SS selection. However,
they put me straight on my sergeant's course, and there I went on
this. I thought, right, okay, this would be good because you
have to do this course even within the SES, but on you in the
SS if you get once you get to the rank of sergeant. So I
for if I get the course in, now that's a bonus and it will
give me more experience. So I went to this course. As soon as
I passed it, they made me up to my sergeant. Now I've got
a four platoon and we also got an emergency tour of Northern Ireland. So
this is my third two of Northern Ireland. First time was a private,
second time a corporal in charge of eight guys, and now I've got thirty
guys and the young lieutenant. Because basically the sergeants would run it anyway.
So I thought, right, I can't go on SS selection now, why
my guys are going to Northern Ireland again. So I did another two of
Northern Ireland and by the time I finished that it was I guess we can
move back to Germany. And that's when I finally got to go on SAS
selection. So I thought to myself, while I've had free operational twos the
duty of Northern Ireland, I've been in a proper fur on war. I'm
already a sergeant with twelve years experience in the infantry and arbit inventry. I
thought, right, and you know I'm good to go. I've got you
know, I'll be good for the Special Forces. I'll be hitting the ground
running boy, little do you know? And then once you get in there,
within about eighteen months you've done a lot more and it's just like craziness
city. Yeah, yeah, you do so much. So anyway, I
went on selection. So now this is January nineteen ninety four. I went
on a winter selection course and there actually passed the first time when I got
into the dscad in SAS. So that was the start of my military career.
It's an amazing start the way you phrased it, the start, I
mean, you did four deployments with the conventional military, including combat. What
was it like, you know, you're a platoon sergeant going to SAS selection.
I mean, what was that experience like? I mean it it feels
like maybe you were better prepared for it than say, you know, a
younger junior guy who didn't have as much experience. Yeah, sure, Jack.
And then in hindsight, I'm glad now looking back that when I first
wanted to go for it, I most probably want to you know past you
never know, but I don't think I was mature enough at the time,
so I had a lot more experience. However, you find most most blokes
who go on it were a senior lance, corporals and corporals. You know,
you get a few sergeants on it, and even to go on it,
you've got to have done back then you start to have done at least
three years and being a standard. So generally you get guys who are really
up for it, and especially nowadays, they have to take everyone who wants
to go on the selection and they go away for a beat up first,
have a weekend and everything, and they do all basic sex just just to
make sure they are fit enough to start the course. Because what was happening
in the past, lots of guys were putting in to go on this course
and then even if they failed and come back after a week, they were
they were looked upon as an ero because nobody knew anything about that, right,
That's what I said. I never did, and it was like wow,
and they were coming back all these stories, but you're still give them
so much respect because they went there. You know, it was just it
was just that side the scenario. So yeah, I in eyesight, yeah
it did. It did definitely help me because of having the experience, but
as you know, it's it's a totally different way of life. But I
say, like the normal Army is like we call the Green Army. It's
great. I really enjoyed it. You know, you always go back to
your roots. I love that time of being a sergeant and having troops and
command. But once soon as you get into the Special Forces, it's totally
different. Instead of being formal, it's it's informal. Everybody knows you buy
your name. There's no saluting, there's no yes sir, no sir,
and there's no bullshit like marching around. No wine in the case, it's
just because you haven't got time. Everything's operations, operations, operations, and
if you're not on operations, preparing for an operations. And if you're not
preparing for operations, you're you're on an intense training, you know, training,
getting over courses going and then last but not least, there's a bit
of leave if you can never fit it turn and as you know, you
just that that's that's a luxury. So it was just full on I and
I really I really enjoyed that. The selection process. Don't get me wrong,
it was the oddiest, h physical and mental thing I've done in my
life. And that's why it's meant to be. It's meant to push you
to your physical limits and also psychological, your mental limits. But what nearly
broke me is when I first got there. Mine was the first combined one
where the Marines, the SBS, and SES did the entire course together,
because prior to this, the SBS used to do their own ills phase,
the aptitude phase part and then you door meet up in the jungle. And
this was the first time everybody was together. So there was all these big
marines because they generally marines in our military do more fitness. It's an order
course get in than the normal army, than the normal infantry. And then
you've got the parers and they do more fitness they have to do. Generally,
did more difficult get in the powers than a normal infantry course. Even
though infantry is great. These guys do a bit more training. So a
lot of the people who go for the Special Forces were from either a parachute
background or a marine background. And I remember going there and looking at these
guys, and some of them you think man mountains, you know, I
I nearly site myself out of it thinking because I was the only guy for
my unit, and he's town to people there and I'm looking at these guys,
thinking they could work forever with a mountain on the back. And then
you've got these very, very intelligent offices. I listened to all these officers
speaking and I'm just lying on my bump bed. You know, you're just
in big rooms and listening to these guys and who were officers, and they
were saying, oh about their university, and they were coming out with these
big wirds. I didn't even know what they meant, you know. I
mean, I'm like, God, one, I'm not going to be fit
enough, and two I'm not intelligent, intelligent enough for this. So I
nearly signed myself out. But then as you start the course, suddenly you
see these big fit guys just falling out of it because mentally it doesn't matter.
It's up there. As you know, you keep going, and the
pain barrier is the same for everyone, so you're pushing yourself and pushing yourself.
And that sort of motivated me. And then and also I had an
incident. What happened there again going onto not so much a bullying incident,
but it was a bit of a racial incident. What happened there and mine
on a bump bed, and all these guys they're talking about the roots that
they're going to go on, and they had a bunch of six lags,
all from the paras and they were talking about the thing this is going to
be the next route. I had no idea, and nobody really does.
But there's only so many routes you can go around the breck and beacons.
There's only so many earls there. You know, you can go up these
mountains one day, but you don't know which mountain. And these guys thought
they knew the area, and they were all just talking together. So I'm
lying on the one bed and I was just like a normal infantry guy.
I jumped up to him. I goes, hi, guys, could you
mind if I have a look at the map? Do you mind if you
let me know but this? And one of them just turn around, and
you know, because you went power trained is they started calling names and one
of them come out with like a racial word, a really bad slay,
And you know, I was so angry because I was always told to stick
up for yourself and they didn't. Because I thought in the back of my
mind that if I start arguing the five one, there was five or six
of them. They battered me. But it wasn't that. I've been battered
all my life, but I stood up myself, stood up from the south.
Doesn't matter if you get kicking, you've just got to You've got to
defend yourself against the bully. But I thought tom My Dad, and I'm
like, shit, he would go mad. However, I can't get kicked
off this course. But that was one of the best things because that was
the incentive. Then I thought, right, there's no way I'm going to
leave this course before any of them guys. And I didn't, and has
got worse and worse. I remember pushing on and then watching a couple of
these guys leave, and before you know, the two hundred what started the
course went down to you know, about just under forty, and that was
what was left going to the jungle. And then we went on the jungle
phase. And I'd never been in the jungle before. And I remember this
sign guys saying, oh, we'll see how all these hats that's what they
call the normal infantry. You're saying, I'll see how these guys go in
the jay and the jungle because he's been there before and so on, and
I'm like, okay, anyway, when we get to the jungle again,
I wouldn't leave until you know, there's no way I'm going to leave this
course until that guy at least, and these guys, a couple of them
left. Eventually I saw him believe he just vw' voluntary withdrawal because at any
time you want, you just say I've had enough and just go to the
alicopter at the jungle and just wait and get the next helicopter out. And
I watched them go, and that was about two weeks in the jungle,
and then I thought to myself, Wow, who forgot go for now?
This this my incentive. I'm like, shit, I've just got to carry
on now and get through this. But I did. I And the main
thing was, even though you've never been in the jungle before, you get
taught everything. And that's all the selection processes, and that really is or
what the Special Forces is for. Start at the beginning. They just want
you to do the basics properly and they teach your something. And so to
me, it was like, right, I'm doing exactly. They tell me
stay there, don't move. I'd stay there, don't move. They tell
me that's that and the other I would just do it to the to the
to the letter and just got through it. So yeah, I got through
the jungle stage. And this is most people say, this is where they
pick you because you watched there's a group of four of you and you sort
of watch twenty four seven. Then you know they'll the instructors will come with
night vision goggles or whatever, and they like to see. They like to
watch when no but when they don't think you're when you don't think anybody's around,
they like to see what's going on in the background, see who's helping
each other, make a model, se who's who's the d s DS watcher,
whose only works when like there the instructors around, and so on,
so they get to know the person really well. And you they've got you.
You can't you can't hide in that jungle, you know, and you
can't get out of it. So that's where you picked sort of anyway.
But when you finish that, you go and that arguably, I'd say this
was the most difficult part that's going on to the their survival part and the
interrogation part where you go on the run, because let's face it, even
even eels phase it if you were if you were really fit civilian and there
you're very good at navigation and you're very determined, you could get really through
the aptitude phase, the tapping over the mountains and hills, and you know,
getting through the jungles. Yeah, very very difficult, but maybe you
could get for that. But how do you train your mind? How do
you train yourself right for going on the run for so many days and nights
and then getting beasted for thirty six hours. You just don't go through that.
And to me, that's where they push you to your Obviously they try
to push your to your physical limits, but without injuring you. They don't
want people injured. But unfortunately on sometimes on courses, we've had people badly
injured or the odd person die. It's part of partial but even though they
put all the safety measures, and it happens because you push that much physically
and then mentally it's the same. They want push your to your breaking limits,
but they got get an happy medium because they push you too far.
Then you know that's it. It's hard to fix your mind. And again
on this I remember seeing some officer and I thought to myself, he's really
intelligent. He remember everything they've told him, and but I couldn't believe it.
He left the court because he just started speaking and started writing things down
and everything, because everybody goes to that stage where they're completely tired and they're
illucinating, and you know what, it's like, the slip, declavation,
declaration. Yet yeah, I remember just watching this, this guy giving me
an interrogation and literally his EDG just turned into Mickey Mouse because you were you
were hallucinating and like god, So to me, that was the most difficult
part. I thought, Wow, if this was at the beginning, i'd
be out of here. But you know, this was the last part of
it and that was it. So I do believe it's a fantastic course.
And I know your courses are very very very similar. Were run in the
same way, don't we. You do all these type of phases, go
through the fitness phase, the mind game phase, and so on. But
I do believe it does, it changes it and it gets They do iron
out what's left of it, right, They put a bunch of people together
and what comes out it's something quite unique at the end because everybody's the same.
Even though what David still and now we're found in Farth has said this
was the SSC force and I only thought about it really once I got out
in detail. It said every person who gets in the SAS they've got to
have this. They've got to have classlessness, humility, integrity, the shoot
of excellence and the sense of humor. And I thought to myself, that
is fantastic. You put them are five points together, and so classlessness that
means you can work with people from different backgrounds, different races, different religions,
different classes of society. You know, very rich people, pool people,
but they're all in the same group. They all got that common goal.
So you all get on. And if you've got this, not only
in the special Forces, it's a bonus for the rest of your life,
no matter what job you're in. You could be working in McDonald's, nothing
problem with that. But if you can just go through that, ifos classlessness
and then humility, you know, nobody likes somebody who's just you've got to
You've got to be humble, you know, but you've got to be confident,
but not arrogant. You've got to be a normal person basically, and
that's that's lie. And not everybody can get on with somebody, no matter
what job. And then integrity. Nobody likes a liar. You prefer a
fifth and a liar. And as you know, you've got to roll jans
up. Yeah, we all make mistakes. You've got to admit it.
If you, for instance, everybody wants to go on operations, but if
you were injured, you've got to and nobody people try and fake in.
They'll do anything to you know, take all them painkillers or whatever. They
don't want that backstock because they won't get on that operation, but they've got
to hell they end up and say no. Or for instance, we've had
people on certain jobs pull out of the job and pull their team out because
they could have got compromise and that's a big no no. But really they
did the thing, but at the time it was looked on as bad.
You know, you've got you've got you've got to be honest, and integrity
is massive and in any weird place. And then finally the last two is
pursuit of excellence. I always say, if you're going to be I remember
saying to me, and I've kept the same if for us, if you're
gonna be a tom, which is a private be a good tom So,
even though I joined as a sergeant, you go down to a trooper and
I found myself in the ses. You've been used to commanding phatic people.
Next minute, I'm moading a pair of ladders and everybody's rooming up the building
and I'm the ladder. I'm the ladder older. That was my job,
but I made sure that he was the best ladder older. You had the
correct diet, you got there quicker and faster. You practiced on whether you're
doing it on a coach, on a building, on it. You know.
So no matter what job you're in, to shoot of excellence. If
you're going to be a cleaner, be the best cleaner because somebody will notice
it in that line of work, and just pride in your job. If
you're gonna be a machine gunning and be the best machine gunner. And then
finally a sense of human Let's face it, you've gotta have a sense of
humor in life, and no matter what, and as you know, the
military we've got it's a different type of Yeah. I think I think the
closest to us is emergency services and people like that fire dark human because yeah,
yeah, and you've got to haven't you, And and like in even
in the most dangerous places, and or when unfortunately we've all lost good friends.
But it's the state. Yeah, you just start having a laugh about
all the things that went on with this guy and all the all the you
know, mistakes he made, all the problems we had, and all laughed
together and you just sort of we call it taking the piss out of each
other and so on. It's that banter and Sevy Street. It's a it's
frowned upon a lot more. But and and the and and the army especially
test forces sense humors massive, So I do believe that ethos. It's just
it's fantastic. And in any career, so that's what comes out of selection,
they do look for all this, and especially when they're in the jungle
part. So you get all these guys together and now is there was two
hundred started and then at the end there was six SS soldiers and then for
SBS, so there's only ten of us. And and I remember looking at
all the guys and there's only one guy totally bigger than me, and everybody
else is just normal, normal build or smaller and smaller. You know,
you're like, wow, just just the normal, normal blokes get through it.
And yeah, so I do believe it's a it's a great selection process
that our militaries go through to produce a Special Forces soldier. So after you
go through selection, you complete your training, uh, you land in the
squadron. Uh. I mean you mentioned a little bit about how you went
back down to essentially being like kind of a private in the sas, you
know, starting like starting over from as a junior guy. But can you
tell us a little bit about like the culture of the squadron, what it
was like being in a team room with a bunch of like seasoned sas opera.
I mean, what was that experience like for you as a as a
new new guy there? Oh god, it was. It was really unusual.
But first because you go in there and I remember getting introduced to this
aren't made it and you're calling him saying and it's like, no, my
name's he said his name, and you yeah, and every now and again
your collings, no, don't don't, don't come me, sair, it's
none of that ship. And then I remember looking around the team room and
you think to yourself, you go and get there and everybody's going to be
really fit. And then I'm looking at and there's all shapes and sizes.
I'm like, wow, this just doesn't look like, you know, not
my vision of a Special Forces guy. But what you what I soon found
out is you've got guys who'd just come back from Northern Ireland where they've been
playing, not playing operational, but blending in with with the I already pretending
to be a civy and so on. So they make the make out like
they like them and and and they're sitting in bars and all the rest of
it. And people people would come from different posts, and yet all these
guys they were still would carry all that kit and there were still you know,
because there was no organized pt sessions. You just have to keep yourself
right and you could do the job. So all these guys they could do
the job, but they were just all different shapes and sizes. And that
really shot me. And also what shot me was when I first got their
yeurea about the squadrons. And you think, right, you got in the
normal military, got a command structure, you got the company. So many
platoons, patoon sergeants and so many commanders. We get there and literally in
some groups there's only eight and instead of sixteen, and then another groups this
twelve. None of them are nobody was up to strength, and you could
have so many sergeants and then just a couple of troopers, but the alders
got on. Everybody had a role, and also everybody had to say I
remember being there, and straight away you be getting briefs for operations, and
then the guys putting their words in, the officers talking about the plan and
so the blokes and then they go around the table and they ask, they're
asking me. I'm like wow, and they ask every single person, doesn't
matter if you've been there, the newest guy or the oldest guy, and
they take over people's opinions as well. But obviously the book stops with who's
ever in charge? But that's what was really pleasing to see. And then
the amount of responsibility. So you come out, you start as a trooper,
but it's not that everybody's get on, you know, the bosses and
so on, and then suddenly you get taken away. Okay, now you
and you now you're going to go on this you're going to go on this
course. Next minute you're away doing forward air controlling. And then next and
then you're away as an individual or just a pair of you, you've got
so much responsibility. You're charge of all this operational there where. Usually it's
just to sit in office and the R A f or and the artillery,
and that's just their main job. You just get sent there just for a
few weeks or a few months, do it, and a couple of other
guys will come and take over and so on, and then you find yourself.
Actually I've had to pinch myself. I found myself like brief in the
general and talking to a general and you know, he's pushing all these offices
out of the way, and he come and he comes to where we were.
This was in Bosnia, and he comes, Okay, what's your name?
Is speaking to him and it's like yeah, boss, and right,
what do you think of it? And what's your opinion? And they would
ask you, and you think yourself, God almighty, you got that much
responsibility. But what I find it's more strategic responsibility. Was whereas before it's
just it's mainly tactical responsibility. You and your troops on the ground. This
was what you say and do it? Can it can go all the way
up to a very very eye standard. So yeah, I really enjoyed it.
It was just it was just something totally different. But what I always
remember is as soon as we've passed, we've got we've got a clock tower
and it's it's famous within area fed in sating in the camp and it's known
as you've got to beat the clock because since the Second World War or I
think there's only been one year, there's never been a name on that clock.
And to get your name on the clock, you don't want your name
on the clock because you've got to die, either on operations or within training.
And as soon as we got a berries, there was no big parade.
It was just like Chucky Berry right down. You were going to the
squadron, such and such a to the squadron and the officer who passed it
out, I remember him saying, listen, enjoy it. It'll be over
and an artbeat, and then he said, and also make sure you beat
the clock. And I didn't. I didn't know what that meant. What's
all this? But then over the years when you go back and you see
that clock, and then you know you know all your mates, you've got
that many different people you know on the clock and it's just like wow,
what and then where did them twelve years go? You've had twelve years have
been in because out of the twelve years I did and the s yes,
I had ten of them years was just at the point of the in the
Saber squadron, you know, at the point of the spear, because you
have or SS squadrons, you have ab D and G and they will do
the same thing. They just rotate round, you know, going on operations,
going on counter terrorists and doing training and so on. But as you
guys know, straight after as soon as nine to eleven happened, that was
it. Instead of having like one group on operations, one group training,
one group on counter terrorism, so and you had a sort of a rotation.
Then that store went out the winter because operations are number one. So
sometimes they'd be the entire all the three squadrons were in operations and you don't
no matter what, there'd always be one squadron. Would they have to stay
in the UK because they just counter terrorists squadrons in case, you know,
a big terrorist stintn't happened and the police couldn't take it on, something like
a plane being hijacked or something like the London I mean, the Embassy is
getting taken on. So sometimes it was like obviously training and leave go out
there just operations, operations, operations. But I enjoyed that, I really
did, so I found myself as soon as I got there. I was
well. One of the first things I was doing was carrying a coffin of
somebody who died from the squadron. I didn't know him, but it died
and he only came in. He was on the selection before me. I
didn't know him, but I found myself as part of the coffin bearing team
because the lads, most of lads can't get back for the funeral, and
like wow, and that just showed me how fair and fast it was.
And nobody knew about this obviously because it's like secretive operations, what were going
on and so on. It was just there. How can I say it
was something that was just went went so fast and at times so enjoyed.
But as you know, you don't have time really think about it until you
leave the military. Yeah, and so on. But even mere, I
was very very lucky. I think because over it's been over forty years,
have either been in British military in the Special Forces, or training in small
teams with special Forces guys, or training special forces foreign special forces. So
I've always been in that type of community. So I had a nice transition
of going from once I got out eventually doing training for foreign special Forces,
which was great because you're just the training them and you're playing with weapons every
day. You work with like minded people from the American Special Forces and Australian's
Best Force and brit Special Force, and we all gone on and we are
team. And because talking to that, I find the Brits and the Americans,
we've we've just got that common bond. I remember going over to yours.
The first time I ever worked with the Americans was nineteen eighty four as
a from an infantry unit. We went over to Fort Lewis and Washington and
it was the Airborne Rangers and god, I loved that place and we ended
up going there. Where was it to Lake Tahoe, tom Well down in
Nevadavad? Yeah, I went there. That's a different time. Coma,
Yeah, Coma, And I remember going on to that camp and I'm thinking
ship because some some we have like garrison places which were a bit bigger,
but a lot of times it's just a battalion base which is only eight hundred
people, and then you've got just cities around you. Your camp that fought
Lewis. I'm like, God, there's like a city. And it was
just so different than the British military camp and the food and everything else.
It was just and I loved the training there apart from where did we go
Yackamore and it was winter survival God or might it was cold, but we
went to Crystal Mountain and did Scared and that. So that was my first
look at the working and being involved with the US and I loved it.
And then since then we also when we was back Gym used to go down
to the p X and stuff like that, and even we should training in
Canada, but the guys we was rut on the Canadian border go down to
Montana because we loved it. And then in the first Gulf again we did
a lot of cross training and then went to go on to Special Forces.
One of the first things I remember the team what was involved in black Hawk
Down. They came across and give us briefs because we always have cross briefs
together where you guys are other Special Forces units come across, and I think
we go across to yours and we give each other briefs and help each other
out. So then guys came and that was really interesting. Then I found
myself going over to Fort Bragg and again that were a place and massive and
working with the Delta guys and who's the guys who was on some of the
guys who came and give us us brief they were doing these courses for us
because we liked that, the poor smaller brothers. You know, you've got
such great real estate and facilities. Then we'd come across. For instance,
when we practice of blowing aircraft doors, we put wood up there and we've
got a metal aircraft after and and we just blowing the wooden doors off.
Come across to you guys and be blowing proper aircraft doors off and not just
one, two, three a day, and it's like wow, and you
know you've got all the facilities. So that that was really good. And
also apart from working and doing brag and we do a lot of cross training
a lot your guys will come over to ours, but also worked and that's
where I got to comba not to come the tar because we had. We
had a long weekend. We went to the Varda just two hours. They
sent us two hours doing some are controlling and it was with the Seals and
God almighty Europe. I remember doing forward air controlling in the UK. We've
only got certain real estate where you can drop live and you can only do
certain runs. So he gets a bit boring. You go to America,
you've got that desert. God, I remember we have like got there.
They had a built up area and they had two twenty five millimeter howitzers what
with fire white FoST for us and you could use them to mark targets.
They'd have guys with stinger missiles so they could be you know, target the
aircraft. You'd have what remote control tanks and they dropped chalk bombs on it
and they'd make a bolts of wood village and then you'd bomb the fuck out
of it. Sorry swearing. And then next day you come back, you
built a new one. It's like this is facilities were amazing. So yeah,
it's great. And then once I left the Special Force, it's the
very first finger dead was go out working first American news screws cruise with CBS
News. So with American teams, but it was like we're working with American
media, but it was just all a small team of four Special Forces guys.
So basically I got out after at the end of two thousand and five,
and it was in Baghdad. But when all that foul and you know,
went across to the Second Gulf War, went in the desert feirst of
all and then into Baghdad, and I remember then say and rotations that are
this place, it's a nightmare. Never be back here again. Len't be
old. Eighteen months have to get you. I mean it was once out
the very first job. I was out in Baghdad, the exact places you
were there before, but instead of being on the offensive where you know it's
dangerous, but at the end you're gonna have all the backup, you're gonna
have the medical support and everything. You're on the defensive. You're just getting
in there, doing the filming and getting out, but you're still armed and
everything, because you try to blend him with the news crew. So you'd
have your weapon and say a tripod bag and obviously your pistol down your pants
and your job is to protect in the news. But some of them,
some of the instance, what happened there. I could go on all night
about it and how dangerous that was. I'll get I'll get into that,
Melvin. I'd love to hear some of those stories, but I would like
to hear about the two thousand and three invasion, the second invasion of Iraq,
and what your experiences were like there with the sas, if you can
tell us a bit about that. Yeah, Well, what I always remember
is going back to that the first go war. I remember that people we
were saying, oh, they'd be special forces behind their guiding them, bombs
on and so on, and they're like, God, I wanted that one
day. And then don't be old. It was the Second Iraq War and
we were building up for it while before we knew it was going to happen.
Wasn't when, I mean if it was just when, but we just
beat up for it was such a long time, and we had certain squadrons,
you know, certain squadrons were just their main jobs was just Afghanistan,
and certain squadrons were just going to be Iraq, and so we had a
good build up for it. So by the time we got off across there,
it was it was to me, it was It was a great finale
because the original Special Forces with David Staling was, as you know, in
the in the Desert's in the Second World War, were going out behind enemy
lines and doing all the raids and creating AVIC and basically that's what we were
dead. We went behind enemy lines, dropped off and got to know all
locations and then just created AVOC and had all the proper Special Forces stuff,
so and bushes and raids. It was fantastic. So we did that and
then our squadron we got pulled out of there because we're told, right,
okay, back Dad's falling, So then we pulled out and went straight into
Bagdad. So we had like a fair bit of time doing full on combat
and but out in the desert rural, and then suddenly it was convenasion and
you were doing now urban. Yeah, and this was like not just you
know, I've done open before, but that was more under covered type of
stuff. And we've done stuff in Bosnia and so on, but this was
something else because it's just literally as back Dad had just fallen, and it
was like we got attached to these well it was the marine and Marine unit,
but we was just doing an fingered had that deck of cards, that
pack of fifty two, and it was a case of right, we get
we're going to get big, getting theirs. And sometimes you just have somebody
coming in or they pass on to the military they think they know where and
shutches or such as such, a general with somebody from the back pot and
it was like, right, okay, roll up and let's go get them.
So we jump in your armor and the bradley is your guys, the
units with they provide the outer according and then we'd go in and do the
CQB because obviously we're specialized in that a lot with on the counter terrorist team,
so that was like a speciality of ours, but it wasn't one.
Sometimes you're doing two three a day because you just have to go off here.
Say so, you didn't have time to do all the plannings before.
We've been on jobs where you've had a lot of time to plan and you've
been an area faed and then flash the bang, you've gone away done something.
In the back and forth eight hours, there's been a lot of planning,
a lot of the reports and a lot of intelligence on the target you're
going to the apprehend and so on. So it's used like that. This
wasn't any of that. It was a case of a quick set of qbos,
quick battle orders, and sometimes we were just running getting broke up,
Okay, rolling right, I get my team together and you just blah blah
blah and know where you go, and you're shouting out what you're going to
be doing in the back of the noisy Bradley because it was that you know,
quick of the jobs because you had to go. If somebody come up
to the gate, they think they know where such and such is then a
where you go. And obviously a lot of times you get there and they
be the wrong place, or nobody's there, or they've just left. But
then other times we did get a few of them, and then the other
times they was what the remainders who was there, just their bodyguards and that.
So you just didn't know what to expect every time you went in there.
So it was to me it was a great sort of finale near the
end of my career because you had the full on rural side of it,
being behind enemy lines and doing that in the desert, and then going on
and having all the urban side of it. So yeah, that was fantastic.
And then as I said, once I got out, I found myself
straight back in Bagdad, but this time on the defensive lot more dangerous as
well. During during their period of time in two thousand and three, were
there any particular like missions that kind of stood out in your mind? Is
like this was really significant or whatever it was that kind of is prominent in
your in your mind even today. Oh yeah, there was a fair few
missions, and it was especially well in both parts on the rural side when
we was out in the desert, because sometimes we literally went and did a
reconnaissance to this area where we was going to call in some air on a
certain objective. One night and we went through the the check of the area,
just you know, so many vehicles just rolled in there with all the
mvgs, and it's just I remember thinking, I'm so tired and that I'm
seeing things. And I thought I was seeing things moving on the ground.
I thought, what's that. It looks it must be rabbits or something.
Because we was driving along, but we actually got on the road. That's
how cocky we were in out full of ourselves and we're just going along this
road and either side, I thought I'm you who have seen something on the
ground, and I was just I never said anything, and but the driver
and the gunner at the time, they were saying when we spoke about it
after they sort of things anyway, what it was. We went check this
area out. Then next day we moved back to do the task what was
meant to be doing, like calling in air and no kidding you, when
the air came, it was just bonkers. We were just in a massive
area. We was in the middle of a full on position. So these
and I found I'll tell you the story. So we got out of this
position, like what the hell was that? And next day we get the
report from the predators that went over because we should both ride the fire over,
but the US so your your guys were using it and obviously it was
your your your your resources. So then we sort of went and blind to
where we went on target. And then next day they came and we got
the full on report. One of the guys they was doing the extra office
on the ad his laptop and in the back and basically they could see everything
and we was inside a massive, massive position. So either side of the
road they could even show like four man fire trenches. So what I thought
was moving and what was on the ground was it was actually Iraqi's heads popping
up and then popping back down, you know, because yeah, we were
just and because they didn't know who we were, right, I think,
and they were real restaurants when we were trying to get out of it after
we called them, because what happened was they actually all the anti aircraft weapons
they started turning and firing on us as well, So like, what the
hell we thought was getting mortared? And then we get back on this road
to get out of it, but then we saw tracer coming across not you
know, from the sides of us, and then you saw stuff coming over
your head and landing in front of your exploding. You think, shit,
I've got to get through that. You're like, what the hell was that
what we went through? And then when we saw on the map where we
where, you think how they out did we get out of there? It
was just amazing. But then the next day the centers back in the different
area and do the same again or so, yeah, there was some full
on, full on contacts there. And again it's just by luck that you
get out of these these task and I'd say, look, but it's also
good drills because everybody knows exactly what they're doing and moving and so on.
But yeah, as for being overpowered, we was, you know, definitely
a small fish in a big sea. And then yeah, there was many
jobs them once we went on inside the city itself. And obviously I'm not
allowed to say who we got, but we got some big targets and we
missed some targets just by you know, literally minutes and twenty minutes you reckon,
we could have got some biggings. But yeah, some some full on
jobs there. How was it for you working with you know, whether they
were active or National Guard, the armor un it's they were there to provide
you, guys, cordon and support and things like that. Was that a
learning process for you guys? Or is it is it something that you had
already been trained up on? No, we're telling true. If I found
myself, I havn't been years ago in the armored Mechanized unit, armored infantry
unit. You know, I organized, I knew the the tactics of armor.
I've worked with armored before, but in special Forces we don't. We'd
never work with armored before. So there was a better learning care. But
we they went out their way to facilitate it, and yeah, it was.
It worked very very well. I mustn't that, you know. Yeah,
working with the US, not just US special Forces. We worked with
the US it was the Marines and then also with their army, you know.
Yeah, but every every unit worked with just so facilitating its brilliant.
We really got one. Yeah. And then after the invasion of Iraq,
you went to a special wing of the SAS in two thousand and four,
Yeah, I went. I went to a special wing. It was at
the time it was called the PW which is forced projection wing. Changed the
name of it now, and that was like a specialist wing within the SAS.
So I went to that and that was just and then after that,
I really that was when I was getting out and I decided to get out.
I didn't the time I've done, you know, my full career,
and I thought to myself, right, do I stay in now? Do
get out? Added a make get out and then he said, right,
come on this job working with the news, which was great because I said
to my wife at the time one was mcgilfriend. I said, right,
listen, you've been used to me being away for months at a time and
being away in dangerous areas. Now I'm going to carry on going away and
it's a dangerous area obviously looking after the press and Baghdad when it was really
dangerous then just a small team, and I says, however, we're getting
money for it this time. But the difference was if something would have happened,
like a couple of years before, and he was over there fighting for
a country, would have been a case of right sas guy dies an hero.
He died in Iraq, But then if anything happened to you there,
it'll be okay, here's a mercenary. He didn't even have to be out
there. He's just after money. But people don't realize you're still you still
got to look after your families. And that's what that was like what people
were doing. The majority guys, let's face it, they go out and
we call it the sake it. They go on and start jumping on the
PSD teams and getting on these like military type contracts and looking at doing PSD
and and as you know, when it starts, when at the beginning,
there's big money in that, and let's face it, you've still got to
look after your family and everything. So and plus I was just working with
all the squadron guys, not only SDS guys, but they're all x D
squadron, So I was working with for four guys and we all new and
all mate, and we just rotate. So for ten months a year,
I was bad Dad looking after the news. But I got on really well
with obviously all the news crew. And then you did actually, so you
had time tojus and see the different side what the Iraqis were doing, because
I worked with Iraqis all the time as well, and you realize that then
as it went on the devastation, what we caause and how they really wanted
us there. But then later on they were they were over the years,
because I had four years there. They were saying, at least with Sadam,
we knew he was a terrible dictator and they hated him, and some
of them my dad family killed, but they said, hav him back there
now, instead of at least they could get the kids to school, they
could go to a market without it getting blown up and so on. And
it was it was really it was. I found that quite difficult periods as
well, because you were just working with a small man formed man group,
but also all the American news teams what used to rotate through. You got
to know them really well. Unfortunately, we lost you know, good friends
out there. We dropped them off on and in bed with the American military
and they went on in bed and there was a big car bomb there and
had two good friends killed outright, and then one of the main correspondents she
was badly injured. And then we had a few racky friends who we got
to know over the years. They bring you treats when they had a baby
from their family, but most of the time they spent in the hotel with
you because obviously it was a danger for them to be back home. And
when they did go back home, nobody knew who they were working with.
But sometimes it got the way got out, they got followed. So we
had a couple of them over the years got kidnapped, then killed, tortured
and killed, and you knew these people. So it was like God Almighty
that that was quite intense. But then after that I finished that after about
four years, and I'm like, right, because we had a four year
planning. My wife I said, now I'm going to go to just go
on and almost take it and sort of just do normal celeb work and bits
of the ship security. So I did that just for a few months,
but then I got a great job. We were working with the Special Forces
training special forces out in the United Arab Emirates. So I was working out
there with light minded people guys a lot of it, and the all the
all the American Special Forces guys and yeah, we're just training them. So
that was a really great transition. So I did that for the well something
like eleven years so by the time and then I finished that. And once
I finished that, I just I then started doing stuff like a bit of
bodyguarding over there, looking after billionaires. I even looked after JC and Beyonce
when they did the big comeback concert and d Bye. That was brilliant,
you know, just because I obviously knew the Bye, so I was like
they had their own team come over obviously, but he was, you know,
the doors away from and he was really all around them. So that
was that was great. And then I went to Turkey again with the news
cruise just as the earthquake happened, like this time that no a year February
gone and we was actually there when one of the second earthquake happened, and
that was an eye opener as well, and you saw, you know,
all the humanitarian problems what was going on. And then since then, since
i've been back UK, I've been doing a lot of charity work for veterans,
especially homeless veterans, because there's that many homeless now in my own city
and around the UK. So I've been doing charity work, but also a
lot of publics and now I'm starting to do public speaking. And I've also
went to Ukraine as well on a humanitarian aid charity event as well, because
I'm a big believer that we should be back in Ukraine because they're fighting on
our bay off. So you know, I'm keeping myself busy. Now I'm
going to start doing a lot of public events and talk because what we don't
realize and you keep shy about, is, yeah, it's forty years have
either been in a military or special forces or you know, you've had all
that, but with that comes an awful lot of experience, and not just
military experience. We've got life experience, haven't we We've got an awful lot
of life experience and were solves and emergency workers we've gone through it, white's
a lot more than a lot a lot of people, and so I think
if we can show people how to being a lot more resilient, because let's
facically we've all gone from social issues, we've all gone through emotional issues,
financial issues, psychological issues, physical issues, and the idea is you're just
it's like a military sort course, you're going to problem when everything's going all
right, bang, something else to happen, and it just be resilient.
So I do believe with people with our sort of back ground can pass this
on, put on our knowledge and actually out not only for other veterans or
other the civilians going through all this, especially now in the UK there's a
cost living crisis and there's a lot of the better fighting. It seems to
be going backwards. To me, it's like going back to the nineteen eighties.
It's as if it's as if the governments want in fighting. They don't
want people to look up where the problem is. They just want people fight
against each other and they're causing all the problems. And it's so I just
want to do you know, I bet play my part and if I can
help, I will help. But also I'm also just going to be writing
a book as well, because every subject I've touched on this are not this
is just quickly going through it, but there's a massive there's a massive part
of that. I could just talk about one two duty in Northern Ireland the
first one. I could talk about that for about you know, or five
hours, and now you just just to tell you how confusing that that was
and so on, because even I know while there, and I've speaking to
other Americans, they see something like Northern Ireland definitely than we see it as
a brit soldier. You're over there and it's part of Great Britain, it's
part of your Northern Irelanders, it's part of the UK. And you know,
I know, I whatever the politics are and everything, that's that.
But you were there to protect all sides, Catholic and Protestant. You're there
to protect people. But I remember going there in the early eighties. I
remember the Catholics at the time they do you can't see a Catholic area was
more run down. They did seem to have the worst end of the sticks,
so to speak. And then it was just human nature. You got
on more with the Protestant side because they liked. They all liked their military,
whereas mainly the Catholic side didn't like the military, not all of them,
but obviously it's more percentage and that. And I remember at the time
that they're saying to me, why you sold your boy? And they say
that to everyone, but they stopped me a few times in particularly and especially
because of being black. They're saying, why are you here, because at
the time in the UK there's a lot of riots going on there saying they
don't even want you. You were you were, you were the suppressed in
the UK. People don't want you in that country. And you go right,
and this was the Catholics saying to me, and we're the same,
We're we're the suppressed. We just want fair rights and so on. And
so we've got your thinking. You're like, god, I'm trying to do
the job, and you know, you're you're a nineteen year old and you
just want to look after everyone. So that was such a confusing place.
And then even going back the second time in fair time, even though you've
got command, you've got command responsibility to it's still we're very very confusing,
and I think it's confused everybody. Yeah, even that political part. I'm
curious about your take on the whole resiliency issue because it's obvious that you know,
the military and the special operations courses that they test you for resiliency.
Do you think so it's not that they necessarily train you to be resilient,
but there are selection courses find the people who already are resilient or predisposed to
it. Do you feel that there are lessons and if so, what are
those lessons that where you can take that and teach people how to be resilient.
I do last lessons, you know, I always say they'll want to
have. It's me saying and I remember saying it, like you grow through
what you go through. Everything I say these are positive and everything. Even
I will never have a moan about Okay, yeah I got bullied, I
didn't get this job or something happened. Yeah, we have had a little
problems. But to me, like I said, getting bullied, that made
me definitely made me more resilient because you have to do, you havet to
what you do. You've got to face up to a bully, and that
made me now always say right, yeah, for instance, it's like a
storm, a sandstorm, saying good bye. You can't outrun it. You're
better off just standing and just going through it the opposite way. And as
soon as you get through it, that's it. You're over and done.
If you try out running, you're just going to weigh yourself down. Eventually
it's going to get catch up. You can't. You can't outrun problems,
and they're always going to be there. You've just got to face and let's
face it, there is that many veterans have gone through all these life problems.
So not only you're doing a dangerous job and you're you're we're going through
all that type of emotions, which it doesn't it until years later, let's
face it a lot of times, but then you've just got normal life problems.
You know. I went through emotional problems, a better, divorced at
a young age, and then having after that kid a kid involved and you
and then still trying to do your job and then so and then also went
through financial problems. Then I went through before I remember starting the military career
and remember my dad at sixteen, give me a few pounds, so I
started. You jump in the military. During it, you've got a bed
block and itally blankets as you know, and there you are. You're just
a number. But I added a couple of pound roll on. Sixteen years
later, I've gone through a bitter divorce. I'm a corporal. Yeah,
I'm fifty pounds in debt because of because of things what went on. It
wasn't my problem. So not only emotional problems. You're trying to sort out
financial problems. But it's hard. It's life is hard, isn't it.
And it's you've got to choose the hardness. You tie the savings odd,
let's face it, but getting in debts odd, but you have to just
like that. I dug it. I nearly went the other way, for
instance, because I remember now I'm thirty two, gone through sixteen years later,
I'm rolling in into a base and I was like, shit, I
haven't got a bed block, but I just got you know, I've got
a quilt. I've got my own little room, and you've got all the
lads were single and that living in the room or someone I mean in the
in the building. Someone divorced. I'm like, shit, I am now
like I was at sixteen, But at least then I had a few quidam
of pockets Whereas now I've got fifty grand a debt, and I've got still
going on back home, and I've still got this military career to get on
with, and all your mates want to do is just take you out and
get your pissed. Yeah you know what I mean, and forget the world.
And you can. You can't get into that when you get the time,
obviously, because you're way busy, But when you aren't, That's why
I can see how people could hit the bottle, could put that gun to
the head, because you know it, emotional problems. Guys can get through
other problems and grief and then other military type issues, but then suddenly you
get it with emotional problems, family problems about there. It can with terrible
things on your mind. But I went the other way up, Like right,
okay, I know which way this is going to go. If I
just hit the bottle and was trying to get and be better interested, I
just went right bang. Fitness, fitness, fitness, fitness. I'm in
a base, it's got a gym open twenty four to seven. I just
happened to be on the counter Terroce team, so I was based in UK
and was busy. I just like just any time I had before work,
I'd be in the gym. After work, I was in the gym back
at the night and I was just a gym bunny. And over the months
and then I got on a particular good job away working. But it saved
the duney and eventually I got out of that. And as you know,
you can get out of that rut. So financial roots and as I said,
social ruts at the beginning was all, you know, it's part of
life. Yeah, that's either bullying or sexism or whatever. It's always somebody
don't go to me. There's always eighties in this wildly might not like because
you're a football team, because the color of Yeah, yeah, I've always
had that. I've always had the mentality, like my dad says, you
get on with people, it doesn't matter. I was brought up on a
large white estate. Some of the best mate why And I've seen prejudice the
other way as well. You know, it's it's don't don't. I think
now people sort of make big problems out of little problems. They seem to
we we were in a culture where everybody's saying, oh he's done that.
They're looking to blame somebody instead of just saying, right, I never got
that job. Okay, it might have been because it was not good enough.
No, it's because I was a woman, because I'm overweight, because
of this, that and the other. Just sometimes you just got admit it
and that. Yeah, if something's wrong, shouted out, stand up for
yourself. But I always see the best in people and and take every everything
in context. For instance, I not long ago went back to this village
and I had a woman talking to me and chats called me like, b
what was it? Like? What's he saying? And the yes since she
was really old and she's like then and I used to have a Negro lift
by me one time and she's talking like that. Boyd, I'm like god,
that was just because she's no woman. She lives in this village.
She hasn't seen it in to her. She's back in them days. She
could have dementia or something, you know me, and it's stuff like I
even I get confused. I was a scout leader from in Dubai to the
British Scouting overseas because my son he went to the Cubs and I remember filling
this form and now I haven't been back to the UK for a long time
and it said, right, you have to say description of yourself or whatever.
And he's kicking a box and it said black British Caribbean, mixed race,
mixed eptleticity I had about ten. I'm like, I'm just a bloke.
Yeah, I'm like what am I? And I actually said to something.
I goes, no, I'm off cast and this bride goes to me,
you can't say that, this white guy. He goes, if I
said that, I get you know, I'd lose my job because what do
you mean? He goes that went out about twenty years ago. I goes,
well, what is it? Is it mixed race? And he goes,
know, you are now in UK bame, which is black Asian minority
ethnic that's what a black person called the UK. Now bame? What it's
ba? And I'm like, I'm god, Now, who says this?
Who has labeled me? Who says you are now bame? You can't be
black anymore, you can't be colored anymore, you can't be off cast anymore.
You are now bame? Who who comes out with these words? And
if I didn't know this, then other people don't know. You know,
you just don't know what to say in that anymore. And it's not moaning.
It's just like I have to have a giggle about it because to me,
because as I said, just this is a positive and every everything.
I get up in the morning and my wife says, I'm like a puppy
because as soon as it's lies, I'm up and I want to get out.
I don't care if it's raining or whatever. I like to get out
and do some type of fitness. I just do. And just to me,
it's positive. I'm up, I'm awake, I want to do something.
We're humans with bodies, we meant to be moving, and that's always
been my attitude. So we have got an awful lot of resilience to pass
on to people, especially in the civilian population. Now I think the I
know everybody says the generations are getting weaker and easier, but they are getting
recer and easier. And it's just like sometimes you want to just to get
great people and say right, just common sense, come on, let's call
it out and just you know, people get on. We all know what's
wrong, what's right, but get people to benefit of the doubt. Not
every time they're trying to they're trying to cause problems for you, and I
think a lot of times it comes from above. They just want to create
problems. I think there's not so much in UK a race problem. I
think it's a class problem. That's the biggest problem, people coming up there
growing up on a class Because as I said, I grew up in a
white working class I was gonna stay not just as bad as if he was
in a black councilorist area. Where this lot of black people, they's all
the same, they are game for these same problems. Your skin. They
all haven't got much money. They all used to jump in the same bathtub
and use the same water, you know, And it's just people. The
people get on with people and life. There's always going to be problems in
life. But you just can't get over him, can't you. Yeah,
like you said, And to me, looking back, I got back in
touch with my because I lost touch with my old unit when I was faced
in the military. But then I've recently got back in touch with a lots
of people, especially moving back to UK. And I remember seeing a platoon
paton photograph and somebody's telling me and then looking at the guys, I'm like,
wow, he committee suicide. He committeed suicide. He committeed suicide.
He is now lots not lost the plot. I say lots of probably you
know where he's always in and out. It means it's sex sections. He's
really had problem. I've got a few of them. And I look at
this platoon and it's that many of and then a couple of got guys have
gone in prison. I'm like, wow, that's not if you get theater
guys from just a normal area society of that class saying in the in the
in a different job or different in that factory, and you'll got together years
later. It wonn't be like that in the military. But if you look
at it in the military, it's it's a trut and mirrored and and and
every unit. That's what it's like in the British military anyway, there's that
many veterans suffering, especially uh the suicide rates. And I know it's the
same in in America, or even worse in America. I think it'd be
worse in America because, let's face it, you've got weapons so easily at
hand. There's been times here, you know, when you can you can
see people have badly said, they really had bad times and if they just
wanted, they could felt like topping themselves, but it's a bit more difficult
just to walk out and walk in front of the train, or then if
you've got pistol there and you really depressed and bang. So yea a really
grim sort of statistic that I've been told. As you know, American soldiers,
when they sadly take their own lives in the United States, it's usually
a firearm, you're you're right, But then when you see when they're deployed
overseas to places like Japan, they're in Okinawa, suddenly it turns to hangings
and yeah, it's it's sad, and I think we could do a much
better job with it. Yeah, and I think especially our you know,
our governments. But I do know for a fact your veterans, you you
are looked after a lot better than the British military vesterans, your your v
A, your medical COVID and that because, like I said, for the
last eleven years I was working with it was basically American military consultancy firm.
So I was working for a military as private and it's called Schamau Solutions,
and it's military consultants. So I was employed by American firm, but it
was like ex British special Forces as well as American special Forces from more to
your different special forces groups and then some other guys and depending on what job
you were doing. And speaking of you guys and about the different pensions and
about the veterans and about how you you get looked after and other armies.
It's, let's face it, it's it's it's quite disgusted. And what gets
me though, is the British public. They it's that they look after the
British vets more than anybody else. That it's the charities, because the British
public love, love, love the military. And it's as if the government
say, wow, we know that their own people there, they will they
will provide charities for them. It's like I just did recently sleep out for
the homeless for veterans and stuff like that, and you know you're raising money
just local communities are for a rome, not just veterans, but onless and
this isn't this isn't modern society. It shouldn't be going on. Yeah yeah,
yeah. The government should step in and fill that role rather than just
lying on charities to do it. But no, it is good to hear
though, that the that the British public and is so supportive. I remember
walking around London and like going into bookshops and it's like America in the sense
like there's be like a whole display of books of like how awesome the British
War and World War Two. It's like it's clear that there's that that affinity
is there kind of the same way it is in the United States. But
that only one thing that really gets me though, is what I found about
in the States is the flag. You love you, that's you, that's
your country, that's your culture. It's flown everywhere in the States, and
then in the UK people, oh god, they seems to get annoyed.
I've got my flag, but there I've got a flag post outside my house,
a pole with my flag, the Union flag flying. I think everybody
showed that. It's just that over the years, don't you had years ago,
you know, small right wing units who used to add the Union jack
and try and kidnap that Union jack and say it's like, uh, fascism.
And I was a young soldier that I'm like, no, no,
you know, this was back in the day they'd have like National Front marches
and everything. I'd see these guys and all that and just a bunch of
folks basically, and then carry that union jack. But that didn't stop me
when replied, that's my union jack. And then you've got like four left
people saying, oh, the union jack. That represents slavery and the empire
and what happened two one hundred and fifty years ago, and like, come
off it, how stupid. You know, it's in the weirding empire.
You don't get an empire by just saying excuse me, can I take over?
That's how it was. Get over it. But it's our country.
We should be proud of our country, and most of the population are.
And it's just that I don't know a few politicians they just want to not
please everyone. They seem to want to please the minority. You know,
I don't know some set minority to say we shouldn't be having the we shouldn't
be celebrating our culture or celebrating being being who we are being having an empire.
Yeah, we had an empire, So what people did? Some talk
about taking out the British Empire Medal. How pathetic, just because it has
empire and it's I don't know, it's as if people are looking for problems.
Yeah, and if they've got no problem, they've got no problems.
Yeah, they've got the Now why are you going back to hundred years look
for problems if you went back today? Yeah, yeah, these no problems.
Get so you know, I have a laugh about it and just enjoy
life and have a positive about everything and just see the best in everyone.
You know, your mate, your mate, no matter what. There was
one subject that I kind of missed as we were talking Melvin, that I
wanted to go back and hit up with you, which is the hunt for
the Pifwicks in in the Balkans, which was, you know, a pretty
righteous mission that you guys did, going after war criminals. Could could you
tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, Well, most of my
time has actually been in the in the units, is in the in the
special forces. After I've dealt with it's either terrorists and insurgents, enemy combatants
or pifwicks and that's persons indentity for war crimes. And these people, god
what they the atrocities they did. And Bosnia, you know, this is
not just the Bosnian Sabs it was the the Muslims, the Croats, they
all did it, but obviously the Sims were the bigger, the bigger party.
And it just shows you where neighbors can be getting on for generations.
Then suddenly but it's you know, something happens and then does that divide?
What starts again and to build up from the past, and then something happens
to that person and they have to take retaliation and before you know it,
chopping people's heads off, and these masks made it going on and it was
terrible, and yeah, so persons indented for war crimes. We actually we
took out a lot of them and captured a lot of them and we had
specific missions and yeah, that was yeah, really really interesting way. But
usually on them type of jobs you knew well in advance you're targeting, so
it wasn't you know, you had a lot of planning time for it and
then away you go. And I remember being on a job where literally you
just wait for you go down and then I was shopping in the supermarket.
Then you get the call, then you're in the camp and then flash the
bang, you've gone away. Four to eight hours, you're back and I'm
watching soccer on TV, and yet you've been involved and really full you know,
uh, a really intense mission and that so that was that was the
difference. You would just be banging in and out, in and out.
Are there any any of those captures that kind of like really stand out in
your mind? Yeah, there's a there's a few few of them tell you
the true you know, Yeah, there's and sometimes you have to Obviously I've
got I can't say names and all that because it's endangering, it's endangering myself.
And that there's been there's been times when literally I've been in a task
where I've a to used my weapon like a modern day club because you've done
everything in your power apprehends somebody, you know, and that's what you can
that's really close and personal. Yeah yeah, but yeah, yeah, but
they, as I said that they got there, just deserves the the pithwicks
and it's going to happen again. And there's that many pificks get going on
around the world now, yeah, And that's fasicly god. Yeah, and
then there was there was many other different business But like I said, it's
just like before you know it, I remember joining in ninety four and then
be given in ninety five. It was on the counter terrorist team. And
then we just get told, okay, this weekend because you're always working the
weekends because that's when the police get there overtime, and you go down and
you practice on the on the all the embassies, you practice in the main
areas where you think is going to get taken on. You go to the
main airport. You practice on the main airport, so you know when if
there's a big terrice incident, you know where to go, and you know
you have to practice on different planes, trains and everything. That's that's common
knowledge and just in case he's a major incident in the UK. So this
weekend before we was having off. Next minute we was told, no,
you're not, there's no this, this we can We thought it was one
of the only weekends we weren't going to be working. And then and the
reason was because it was Princess Diana and Ari and William, so it was
one of their birthdays that they'd just come down to the area FAED and then
you take them all out and show them all this stuff and that they were
they were regular visitors the royals for that. But it was amazing because like
Okay, next minute you're chatting to Princess Diana and kid stuff and you're doing
live live showing them live CQB and stuff like that. You just don't get
that no more. Only on the weekend with a day's no with two days.
Notice you shared their picture with me, didn't you? Yeah that that
that was the one in ninety ninety five. Yeah, So did Princess Diana
do any of the stuff in the shoot house where you had to go in
and rescue her? Now that they were all just watching. And it's really
really funny because the watchers all go in and you know it's live rounds,
so you have you've got live ammunition there and there's no safety on. You've
got your safety off because obviously there and they've just shown you. And when
they've got all targets up and obviously there's rubber walls, so you go in
there and you fire and so on, and you do it nice and fast,
and then then what happened with was then they tend all the lights off
and they're explaining they change the target, you around and you explain it to
the princess and everything, and also we can do this over night and as
we're talking. We all go in this time with our night vision goggles and
everything on. So you've got your lasers, and I remember going in there,
I've got live ammunition, and twenty meters in front of us is the
princess and the kids, and you walk in towards them, and then I
tinnt I turned to my target, and they say SE S stands for and
the officers talking, and so they obviously they come to you. They like,
you know, they don't know, and they were just saying, you
imagine, now we kill all the lights, and they took it. And
the office said S S stands for speed, aggression and surprise. And on
surprise it's double top, you know, with silences, and then the lights
come on and there you are and it's like, oh, shock effects.
But to me it was like going through. I've got my laser and you
know, I'm like, wow, no safety catch on. And then there's
the princess and the two princes. I always imagine if the trips over that
one's gone down, Well, would it like another another question I'd love to
ask you. You know, you mentioned a little bit earlier on like the
question of or the subject of race in the sas. I'd love to hear,
like, were there any situations where being a black dude was like advantageous
to you as an SAS operator, where your ability to blow and in or
relate to people, no what it what it was. There's very very few
British born people in the very very few. There's a few few guys like
because from the fathers say it might have been for GNN and it's come down
the family lines and he's found himself in and and sometimes we get New Zealand
s s. Sometimes they come on our course and get in and they like
the Marini type. So you do have a few a few different shades in
there. However, once I got to the ses, there was never any
racism whatsoever. I never seen it faulted to anything. As I said,
it was just going on that course. And that was just one one guy
giving a comment. You know, little races. Yeah, yeah, you
get that everywhere, and you know that's never going change. And he could
I could ginger and he could have been saying, right, there's ginger or
whatever. You know what I mean. It's just just that, I mean,
I was curious if it ever like it in your favor, like they
said that you wouldn't be able to blend in Northern Ireland of course, but
other parts of the world I can't. Yeah, yeah, Jack, there's
been times like that. We've worked out, we've witched in the foreign countries,
you know, in Africa and place like that, where even though they
know you're on Africa, but yeah, you definitely do you work them with
other people from there, and yeah, it can go in your favor because
they see you as not one of them, but you're more looking like one
of them, you know, right, and so on, So yeah,
that definitely can go in your favor as well. So yeah, but as
you know, part of our job is also training all different special forces,
trained many many of them, so you get into you get in with different
cultures and as you it's art of minds that's what really helps. And that's
that's great how the special forces are experts and that because as you know,
it's you can win somebody's arts and minds. You've got such a bonus.
You've got an ace. You've got an ACE in your and your pack of
cards, aren't you. You know, they can give you information Italian and
then it's again you've got the responsibility of making that mistake and killing the wrong
person, not by mistake or somebody in that village, and that's it.
You've turned everybody against it, or it can go strategic levels if you drop
that bomb in the wrong place. So yeah, there's an awful responsibilities.
Yeah, questions for Melbourne at all, We just have I think one.
Let me have a question. Okay, actually it's not even a question,
it's just corn. Thank you very much for the donation. Be sure it
hit that like button. What do you got d Hey, Melvin, I'm
the meter and the producer. I got a question about the MP five.
Did you like it? Did you hate it? Tell me about it?
Yeah, they be fat back in the day. I like, you know
with the suppress. Yeah it was. You had a few stoppages, but
I personally liked it South I thought it was all right. I know people
don't like it, most people, but yeah, I'll do it. It's
okay, room clearing or aircraft takedowns or what what role do you think it
would fit into. Yeah, it was the room clearing, our aircraft takedowns
because at the time it was like the nice small weapon and doing all your
vp P drills as well, because then you know, it could be sloped
down nice and easy into a collapsible backpack and into your your small bags and
everything and into the car fitted while in for car drills, especially their empty
five short Yeah. So yeah, and that's a great thing about the Special
Force, isn't it. You're not just you're not just one minute you're doing
we're doing artic and then you're doing a bush exercise, you're doing a jungle
exercise, you're doing the desert. You're just all over the place and now
and you're on the counter terrorist team, so you're doing the civilian side stuff
and then suddenly you get taken away. Not only that I being a member
coming from a jungle exercise, and then literally a day later you're into suited
and booted in civilian clothes looking after really diplomats in a in a really risk
area. You know. Again then you're in CIVVY, so you do all
the the IP type of courses and drills and that. So it's such a
we say with like jack of all trades mastered and none. You're just constantly
on the go, right, Yeah, it's brilliant, brilliant. One other
one from mc m Corbyn, Thanks again, do you have a favorite challenge
coin, Hoden, do you have a favorite challenge coin? Point coin?
Are coins the thing that you guys do in the UK, I mean this
type of yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, we got
these. My favorite coin is obviously these are one for each squadron. That's
my that was my squadron. So you'd have the S S badge on his
back, and then you've got that's D squadron and that's represent that represent represents
the squadron. And then you've got M say, this is B squadron.
This is an easy one, that's a squadron, and then this is G
squadron because it was God's squadron. And on the back. You've got these
coins. But I've got I've got loads of coins because I know this was
a big it's really big in the American military, and I remember over the
years getting given coins. We never did in the UK. We should do,
but yeah, the could you explain if you if you know that the
symbolism of the torch on the D squadron coin, well, it's not a
torture. It's actually it's actually a it's a dagger and it's from the Malayan
conflict. The squadron. Yeah, and and this famous conflict and the Old
Man a small group of that they were old like against lots and lots of
rebels and this was all secret and it was the squadron. This is the
the squadron. Who was who was the main ones And he's a famous guy
and he was from Fiji and he stood his ground and he just kept on
firing this mortar and machine gun and unfortunately he died and we've got a statue
of him. So that's yeah, that's that's the squadron. So that's why
we got that. Yeah, what about the tick or the squadron the scorpion
tick for a squadron, Yeah, so that the truth. I've got no
idea because that's a squadron. I don't really know. And it's the same
with the claw for B squadron because it's it's really weird because you've got a
B DG. We all do the same thing. We're all saper fighting squadrons.
And then with each squadron you've also you've got like your air troop,
your mobility to troop, your boat troop, and your mounting troop. And
that's just an insertion skill. You mostly work as a squadron, so you'
all doing the same things, you rotate, but they're so different. The
squadrons are so different. B squadron throughout my time and even now I know
people are still there, they still say that's like the funt They are a
bit more chilled out, yeah, a bit more laughable squadron. The squadron
I was in, it was always classes, a bit more formal, yeah,
and it used to be. And then a squadron they just weirdos.
Everybody calls it these strange, these strange blokes's and the guards squadron because they
were ex guards, they seem a bit more yeah, a bit more art
arty, but they aren't. But they're the same. But what it is,
I do believe is certain individuals when you get to that squadron who were
the majors and that they they look out for the people and they sort of
meant to them, and they've got to be that type same character. So
for be squad they've got to be more of a chilled happy, go lucky
And you find all their exorgeant majors were and are and and so that makes
more of a chilled up to go lucky sort of squadron. But everybody does
the same job and it's so the same. I remember a Bee squadron because
like I mean the squadron they said, we are more formal. And I
remember one time he was on the counter terrorist team and we were firing all
these rounds. I remember this. Officers are saying, oh, great,
we have fired like double the rounds that D Squadron, I mean that B
Squadron did on the build up to take an over the counter terrorist team.
But I'll tell you what, they were just as good as shots than they
knows because as you know, yeah, you fire loads and loads and repetitive,
but after a bit you get that tired and then you start going down
back and that's what we do. We've just being in the South out they
would do it to the right level. So yeah, we fired more shots,
but that doesn't mean really better. We're all the same, yeah,
but it's it's really weird how different squadrons maintained that sort of culture character.
Yeah, and it's been we're you know. I remember when I got there,
people who've been in for the donkeysh years we were getting out and they
used to say, this has always been like this, And then you look
through it, it says, and then I know people who've still been there
since I've got out and have been there, you know, a long time,
and on on on different type of jobs which you can keep it stay
active now in the SS up until sixty five, obviously not going operational but
training jobs. And they say it's just the same. Yeah, obviously the
equipment changes in that, but basically the soldiers, the man is just the
same. The selection basically is ugly ever changed. You know. Yeah,
let's face it. It's to me now, it's technically if you've got to
be a bit more tep minded, you've got you've got to want because you've
got to keep it at the time, so we all would have been yeah,
because it's all a lot more computers and it's all you know, drones
and everything and so on. But yeah, I was just gonna say that,
it's funny because we have that. We have that same sort of thing
in American special operations, where you know, it's the squadron or the company
or whatever has a personality. Everybody knows what the other you know, component's
personality's like, and everybody's happy to be in their you know, unit for
exactly that reason. It's like we're better than all the want to be over
with the Alpha box or you know, you know an Aco, you know,
like it's like but you know the people on Aco. I was like,
ah, fuck those other guys. You know, Yeah, it's amazing
that it's that type of ethos's built into everyone in it. And I know
you guys are the same. And I was just watching you then, just
you were just pouring a whiskey. But I thought, I remember when where
was it? Now? When I went on one of the first trips,
that was it. When we went to the Airborne Rangers and has been out
and I was speaking to American guys and we're all chewing up tobacco that doesn't
happen in UK, and one was doing it in the class. And then
then and then later on in the night, I was on Jack Daniels and
coke. And then one time I picked up the wrong glass, I was
passed and then yeah, I've been he's been doing it in the glass.
It's like, yeah, Jesus. But I also remember about this guy that
this Poara guy who and this was when it was on the training unit and
he had actually two years working with American and the and the they actually went
to the first Golf War with him, and and he came back after two
years and he took the back and he's only he's the only British person I've
ever seen doing it. But he was addicted to and it's really amazing.
How you know that's never taken off in and in the in the British.
But I mean, I think the American military like it runs on that stuff.
So it's good that, Yeah, it's good. It hasn't Melvin,
tell us what are you up to today? Where are you at now?
What are you working on? Oh? Now I'm just there forgotten. Now
I'll tell you what I've got I'm working on. I'm going down Stoke because
Stoke City that's my local football team, Okay, yeah, And I'm doing
I'm doing quite a lot with the community there and I'm doing challenges, what
raises money, the the on liss and and people there. So people will
be working on events next week, meeting up with Stoke, the Stoke City
and me just working on something in the future. I can't say exactly what
it is now because it's going to come off as a surprise. So be
working on that and also next week in the week I'm also going to meet
a friend who he's actually the British middleweight champion and he's going to be fighting
a world championship, so I'm going to be meeting up with him and he
does an awful lot for the city of Stoke Contrent as well. This is
our local city. The boxed in the army too, right, Yeah,
I used to box then, so that's why I really love the boxing.
I don't do it anymore, don't even do the training name more because I
got old injuries. I still keep fit and sell trained all the time.
But in the military I did it for about five years, yeah to five
solid and literally were doing it for nine months a year, and it is
that was was living the life of the boxes. If he was boxing,
we all used to stay in the same group. You had the best food,
just lived in tracksuits and then after nine months you just like after fire
are going do the same army test and that was it. But after that
you're back in in the in the in the in track suits and then boxing.
But to me, there was nothing better because you'd listen, you'd have
all your unit, so you've got a thousands in armored infantry unit, you'd
have a thousand blokes and know your name. Then you've got a thousand blokes
know their name, and you'd be battling each other and it's just two warriors.
And to me, anybody who gets in the ring and fights take me
out off to them. And back in the day, it was we used
to every unit you should have its own band. So we used to go
and used to get drummed into your tune and that, and everybody knows you.
And then you'd be you'd be fighting a Scottish unit and they come into
the bad pipes and everybody knows them, or you'd be fighting another unit and
they've just got all these bugles and it's really good. I get that.
I get the airs on the on the arms now, because to me,
that's as close to the real combat as you can because you got them.
I remember they used to walk up the steps getting ready to go into ring,
and to me, it's always reminded me of watching one of these films
where somebody gets hung and you used to have the drums beat and the the
beat and they walk up up the steps to the gallows and then he get
on. I used to think of my mind, this is just start going,
because I had it in my mind. I just didn't ever want,
you know, just get knocked down and show myself up the first round or
anything like that. I just couldn't wait for that start and just get a
few punches and then you ride. I'm in there. Now, I'm in
the game, and then that's it. You can start. But everything in
life, everything teaches your lesson then, even boxing. I remember when a
fair started. I thought I was invincible because I was very, very fit,
and I was like running everyone. And then I remember fighting this guy
in another company. This was just into company and he was he was he
wasn't very good or anything, and anybody thought, oh yeah, I'm going
to pass you. And I remember whacking and he just took a big shot
and he caught me, and in my mind I was like, nah,
he can't. May had have gone. And then I went back to mcorder
and the rescue account and I'm like, you're saying, you're right. I
can't remember going back to my corner and yeah, yeah yeah, And I
went back out there and he got me again. I didn't go down and
it got stopped. Now anybody else because too that as a negative, and
you know, I felt really embarrassing that and you could to take that as
like, wow, that's me, I'm packing and boxing. But what I
did, I thought, no, ship. I learned from that and I
just like, right, I'm going boxing this time. It lent me to
box wisely. And then I remember many a time I got caught with these
big shots and before instead of trying to box through it, which is that
first time because you think you're invincible, but really you're going really slow and
that and next time, bang, I got it with a shot, and
you think, right, that was an odd shot. Then you know,
to cover up your know to jab off, you know, just spit your
gum shield out, because then they got stopped. Give you a few seconds,
get that gum sealed clean, because you have to do enamateurs, put
it in and then get you buy yourself time or you learn thrilled on and
then until you're right, made back together now and go. So I learned
from having that that shock that first when you see the lightning, you feel,
you feel sick, you feel buzzy, yeah yeah, and then now
and that that's also happened to me in the Civilian aspect where I had a
fight and and civilian street, you know, drunk and fighting all the rest
of it. And I remember me and I'm like, wow, is it
to me that odd? I'm getting older. I can feel these shocks.
That's me. I'm going to go out now. And I remember, right,
I've got to think what I've got to do. And then I was
My dad used to say, in the worst case, when I was getting
bullied, doesn't matter how big that person is biting, sink your teeth enter
him. And I remember doing that when there's a little kid and this bully,
and boy did he stop bullying me then? And he could beat me
up. He could carry on beating me up, you know he went,
but you know he'd have a bite and he just wasn't worth it. And
I remember getting it in the civilian fight. It was actually in Australia.
That's just another story. Basically, I I was going I was going through
a bitter divorce, so I was, you know, I wasn't ready for
the argument of anyone. But it was actually sheep shearers and it was a
sheep shearer's wedding going on, and I was having a drink in this hotel
and they had all food on. I didn't know this food was part of
their buffy. So I started setting these little sausages and pineapple cheese on a
stick and stuff like that because I thought it was a freebie. And then
some of this girl come over says, you know that's not you shan't be
having I said, I didn't know, but then she starts gobbing off at
me. Now I'm just going for a bit of divorce. So I wasn't
happy with me anyway. So I get a mouthful. There were I think
of it, and next minute this guy come across and he was he was
It was actually sheep shearers and it was a sheep shearers like stagg theoror wedding
something and they were like Popeye. Their arms just like the forearms are massive
because they're picking up the sheep. And yeah, and this guy come up
to me, I thought, and I was with her. I thought,
God, almighty Year is going to come up. He could tell he was
just going to come across and start. So as he's coming close to me,
it's not good, it's not right. I thought, right, I've
got to get the first punch. And they tried bang and he just starts
fighting. Luckily it got broke up. But in Australia they have they always
have a bar. So we left the hotel bar, but they always seem
to have the bars in the basement, and in the basement they all go
gambling. So when we left, I thought, oh, the basement bar
is on. Let's go down there. Now that's open un til two in
the morning. So me and these lads we went down there. And then
everybody leaves at two o'clock in the morning, so we left and then at
the same time these guys left. So by the time this time, they'd
had a good drink and there was a lot of them and they were like,
there's that guy, and I'm gonna do it anyway. They thought,
well, I can't be bothered, and I just said, come on,
then, I'm gonna get kicking out of at least I try and fight.
Yeah, they starts say to me, and I saw that then that lightning
again. I covered up like in the box and I thought, right,
I can't box out of this. There's no referees to stop it. I'm
just going to get I'm just waiting to get passed out in them. I
thought, I've got to do something, and I went back to me when
I was a kid, right bite him and he was that big. I
remember he had a white shirt on and I bit his tit. I was
in his chest and I was like a dog. I've tried im thinking I'm
trying to put my teeth together, and I was thinking, fucking hell,
he's a he's a he's a muscular because I was trying to connect him,
and all I remember him saying is a n weird. He said that that's
biting me. And all these mates moved away because the blood on his ship
they must have stabbed something. Everybody's just in shock. And then I just
started walking. And then when they all come together, they were just going
to pile on me and had me and no kidding you, the guy who
was with he got the bouncers and a bouncer pulled up in the car.
He drammed me and he go get in the fucking car. This Australians got
me in the car and got me away. Oh God almighty. Anyway,
I don't know where I come in that story from, but it's all come
that all came from the boxing. Yeah, it teaches your lesson. So
in life there's always lessons, so you know you learn from them, don't
you. So that helped me out to a couple of times. Well,
what what's update? I have one more question for Melvin. Melvin, were
you ever lucky enough to get your hands on those Rolex explorers they gave says
members, Yeah, got I've got I've got Rolex. Yeah, I got
a Rolex, I've got Braitlyn and I've got Braitlyn, a Rolex and ad
Squadron from a smaller, smaller company. Yeah, I've got a discording one,
a Breitln and a Rolex. I could get me a book. I'd
have to nip downstairs and get them if you want me to. Yeah.
Like so those Essay Yes Explorer explorers that they made for Rolex are like super
like highly sought after. They go for like forty fifty dollars. Wow.
Yeah yeah, yeah, because I got a couple of kids, so I
felt, right, I'll have one. And at the time you're like,
wow, this has cost me aiano and that's a lot of money and it
and you're in and that. But then they unique, they just got your
zap number run and they've just got you know, personalized and yeah, they're
going for an awful lot of money. If you want me go get one.
Have you got time that can just run downstairs? Well yeah, yeah,
yeah, okay, I'll just nit down. Ok uh. And guys
out there, if you are so inclined, please check out our Patreon.
There is a LinkedIn the description. You subscribe for five dollars a month and
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Jason Lyons. You'll get all those episodes add free as well. I also
want to give a shout out to Casa Carabeo Cigars. My buddy over there
make some awesome sticks. I hope you guys will go check it out castacarabeou
dot com. Hey mao, Melvin, Yeah, so got this is this
one? This is the Brightly. Push that mic up a little bit?
There you go? Sorry? Can you mean? Okay? This is the
Brightling and you can see the that's just bad shirt. Yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah. There it's got your number and everything back. That's
cool. Yeah so that's the Breaklyn. That's awesome. And then this is
the rolex mm hmm wow. And then you've got all the on the back,
can you yep, the beautiful beautiful watch. Yeah yeah, it's got
you number and everything. I'll tell you what the first time I had this,
I wore this watchword it. I had a drink. When I got
back, I took it off and then I dropped it and I smashed the
glass. So and cost a lot of money. And then this is a
squadron one personally for the squad and on the back you could see that the
dagger. You know they're not the dagger there, the squadron squadron Yeah yeah,
yeah yeah yeah. Can you see the badge there it's in black and
can't really see it. I know what you're talking about, because yeah,
so they've got that badge on because it's just this is just for the squadron.
So yeah. So but these as I say, I'll never sal them.
I know, blokes have come, a few blokes have had gone through
bad times and then they've sold them and they've you know, I know they've
gone up in price and they collectors aren'ts but yeah, and probably must probably
get me out burgled now by shooting them. They And then you also have
your own YouTube channel that's launching. Do you want to tell folks a little
bit about that. Yeah, I'm opening a YouTube channel going started next week
and we're going to start doing lots of stuff there and doing stuff on resilience
and just getting talking about live and having talked and also doing a lot of
fitness challenges there. And just because I do believe like it's mentality, it's
consistency, and I'm all for work or play or I like go out,
I like have a beer. I always have done. I think multiley people
are are the same. But I still enjoying my fat. Still make sure
I keep myself fit as well, so you know, and that's whether it's
in the gym, whether it's running, whatever type of exercise is tabbing,
especially over the hills, and I like even the other day I just went
through. My wife is doing the Manchester Marathon, so she was practicing and
she did a theaty kilometer run for part of the train and build up for
the manchester Mouth and in a couple of weeks time, and so she asked
me go on the training run with the especially supposed to been running with somebody
else and now they drinking that before and last minute they couldn't do it.
So she says, well you come, yeah, because she goes quite slow.
So I did that, and I thought to myself, I've done theater
cometers. I feel all right, and it's such a lovely day. So
then I ended up just jogging a bit more and I got to forty.
The most of jogged recently was fifty. I thought, oh, I'll go
for the fifty, and I got to the fifty. Now what was intending
to due? I'm sixty in December. In my mind, I just thought
of it one morning. I thought, right, I want to do sixty
at sixty and six, so that's sixty kilometers sixty years old in six hours.
I said, I want to do that on my birthday. But the
other day I did is about in fact last week, last Thursday, and
I got to fifty kilometers and I thought, oh, I could get in
the six hours here, and so then I thought I saw it, I
might as well do the sixty. So that just came out the blue.
I was going to do it in December, and then I just did it
the other day. So I did six kilometers, which is like thirty eight
miles. Awesome. Yes, so that's a lot. And even on these
knees and everything, and so you can you can still get changed. So
I just enjoyed just doing stuff and just different challenges and stuff like that.
Yeah, and we'll have a link down the description to his YouTube channel,
Melvin. I mean, this has been a really fun conversation, man.
Is anything that I failed to ask or anything that you wanted to put out
there that we haven't covered? No, Yeah, You've just put my Instagram
and then the YouTube because I'm going to do a lot more things. And
I've also got a friend, he's a sevy friend from Stoke. He's younger
and he's really good on the YouTube and the skits. So we do a
bit of fun as well, you know, because, like as I said,
sense humors part of the military, so it's not just deadly serious and
about talk about that. Yeah, it's happening to laugh about things and just
too common everything what happens throughout the day, you know, the mistakes,
what you do and you just got to laugh at and mind you because we
all we're all mess up and there's always something what you know, pisses you
off and you just have to have a laugh about whatever it is. Where
if it's road rage or something up and it's it's just it's part of live.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's And honestly I think that you know,
when you talked about resilience, like a sense of humor and you know,
like taking the piss out of guys like that's all part of it.
Like if a guy can't handle like guys on his team taking the piss out
of them, Yeah, yeah, then it makes the guys on the team
question. I think sometimes we'll like can we rely on this guy under pressure
if you get so like spun up over this little thing? Right, Yeah,
they're definitely. Yeah, it's it's that's part of it, is'to it?
And I think that's why part this election process they see that you know,
you've all got to be able to give and take it on the team.
If you don't want to give it, don't take it. Yeah,
some people have been more serious enough is then you know when you when you
with mate, you know what what buttons to pushing that there sta stay yeah,
yeah, so all right, yeah, thank you, Melvin, And
who do we have on Monday? On Monday, we have Jeff Man who
is actually, I think he stood up one of the first, if not
the first n s A Red teams, so one of the first, uh
you know, teams to actually be adversarial testing intration testing. And then and
then next Friday, we have Jonah Mendez coming on who's a c I A
disguise officer and she has a new book coming out so or actually it is
out now, so we'll be talking to her on Monday. So look forward
to seeing all you guys. Then, Melvin again, thank you for spending
Friday evening with us. Man, this has been really fun. Yeah,
it's been phone Jack, Dave, thanks Faminism, and thanks Team House.
Yeah, thank you, and America. We'll see all of you guys out
there on Monday. Take care and let us know when your YouTube channels up
so we can plug it right. We'll do find stup mate. Also,
Melvin, when you write your book and you come for like a book tour
and you're in the States, maybe we'd love to have you in studio too.
It'd be great. Yeah, yeah, great, that'd be fantastic.
Yeah, yeah, you're welcome anytime hit hit us up when you're coming through
town. Appreciate that. I really do, absolutely, But I wouldn't be
having that. I'll be watching web. A drink is inside of stuff.
That's that's that's a quick lesson you learn. And range of battalion is if
you open a can of coat or if you open like a can of soda,
you never put it down. If you put it down, you don't
drink. That was that was a habit I quit the day I left the
Army, the day I quit dipping. Yeah, yeah, could average how
many guys say, in your squad and ranges or whatever dip? Yeah?
Two thirds probably. Yeah, I'd say, yeah, like it's it's it's
never been banned or is has he ever been? In ranger school they banned
it, but not in the Army as a whole. So in ranger school,
what guys would do instead is they would take the coffee from their m
r. E s because it's ground coffee, and they would pack that just
so it have something in there. Yeah, it becomes like a performance drug,
I think in some ways where it's like, you know, you're doing.
You're up all night. The controls it keeps you guys who are just
like hitting the nicotine to like keep them like going and focused and everything.
Yeah, it's amazing. But I remember going to p X though. I
got that got me on the git meet. I've never had that before.
This was years ago in the eighties. You know, you shove the the
jit jick beef in that. That was brilliant. Yes, I love it
now. Yeah, well chicken not sent it and all that sort of stuff.
It's funny because you mentioned like the you know, like the tabooze and
you know, the dip and stuff like that. But it was Phil was
and Phil Campion who's telling us how he he brewed a spot of tea on
target while he's like, it's like, well that's something in America like that
to us is so you know ultimately British. Yeah, while he's in a
hide or you know, on a support position, he's brewing tea. Oh
yeah, the Breues that's always tea all the time. Bre you guys has
always coffee one it yeah yeah, yeah yeah. So but the world now
it's all rappuccinos whatever, you know, bunk is it it? Yeah?
Everyone's and even here in the States, even with the tea like they church
it up. You know, they've got the like the chilatte like, yeah,
you can't just get a tea or a coffee, like there's gotta be
something, Nancy. Now, just just I mean normal tea. I don't
want to all this and give out all this stuff. Just normal. Just
give me tea just as it is normal. We say, NATO NATO standard.
All right, all right, Melvin, we'll see you next time.
You know, let us know when you're that book's coming out, and we'll
be happy to have you on here again. And uh, we'll see all
you guys out there next time. I