1 00:00:16,719 --> 00:00:20,280 We're back with another edition at the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dshinski, 2 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:22,960 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,600 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on exit fdr LST. 4 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,839 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to the 5 00:00:29,839 --> 00:00:34,399 premium version of our website, The Federalist dot Com as well. Today I'm 6 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,159 joined by Michael Warren Davis. Michael is a contributing editor to the American Conservative. 7 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,920 He's also the author of the new book out on June eighteenth, after 8 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,240 Christendom. Michael, thanks for joining the show. Oh, thank you so 9 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,000 much for having me. It's a pleasure absolutely if you could give us a 10 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:55,759 little bit of background about just your personal history, your career, how you 11 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,479 ended up where you are. Since I think it's your first time on the 12 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,079 show, it's always helpful to go through of that. Just as we're getting 13 00:01:02,079 --> 00:01:06,319 started here, give us a little bit about you, Michael. Oh sure, 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:11,120 I grew up what I call a swamp Yankee, just you know, 15 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:18,840 middle class kid from farm country in Massachusetts, northern Massachusetts. And I yeah, 16 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,719 I I I dabbled in different religious traditions. Growing up, I was 17 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,079 I was raised Presbyterian, but I was I experimented in Wicca, obviously, 18 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:34,480 living down the street from Salem, Massachusetts, which city I I doubled in 19 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:41,200 Wicca, unfortunately, daubled in Satanism and eventually found Christ, returned to the 20 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:48,200 Church through the becaming. I'm now an Orthodox Christian, very proudly so. 21 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,400 And uh, and this book is I think that, unfortunately, mine was 22 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:57,840 a was a pretty typical childhood. You know. I was raised in what 23 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:04,239 they call the mainlinetant churches, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Lutheran, these kind of 24 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,919 like mainstay American churches, by wonderful parent, wonderful parish, wonderful parents. 25 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:20,719 But I think my childhood is in many ways indicative how totally unprepared are Christian 26 00:02:20,759 --> 00:02:29,800 religious institutions are for facing the challenges presented by our post Christian modernity. And 27 00:02:30,319 --> 00:02:34,520 so a lot of this book is not autobiographical, but so much of this 28 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,599 book was written from my perspective. I just turned thirty, so I'm kind 29 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:43,400 of at the younger end of the spectrum as far as people that are writing 30 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:47,360 books about current events and trying to trying to warn not only my people in 31 00:02:47,439 --> 00:02:53,680 my generation and younger, but also to wake up some possibly older right of 32 00:02:53,759 --> 00:03:00,800 center and Christian people, readers and thinkers to these dangers that they even you 33 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,439 know, just being a couple of years old or may not even be aware 34 00:03:02,439 --> 00:03:07,319 of just how bad things have gotten. And unfortunately, I'm not even sure 35 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:12,680 how bad it is for the poor kids that are turning ten, fifteen, 36 00:03:12,759 --> 00:03:16,319 twenty years old now. So so interesting, and a lot of this in 37 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,879 the book. I want to ask if you could you talk about Christendom as 38 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,199 a quote walking corpse, and I wanted to see, Michael, if you 39 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:30,919 could maybe define Christendom or how you define it just as we're getting started here. 40 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:38,599 Yeah, absolutely, Christendom is to me it synonymous with Western civilization. 41 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:45,280 Right, Well, we're talking about Western civilization. We're talking a little bit 42 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:51,919 about classical civilization. Right we might meet Plato and Aristotle, but we're mostly 43 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:58,759 talking about the West after the flourishing of Christen. So whether you're talking about 44 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,280 Shakespeare or Beethoven or write any of any of that, that's all. You 45 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:08,240 know, all of those people are either either belong to a Christian ethos or 46 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,319 or they're you know, they're they're in inculcated in a Christian ethos and uh 47 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:20,199 and also the values that we talk about being Western values, values like respect 48 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:27,079 for human dignity and human rights. These are things that grew up in the 49 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:33,000 West uniquely under Christendom, have not been seen anywhere else, really, anywhere 50 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,040 else in the world at any point in history. No one has come to 51 00:04:36,079 --> 00:04:45,360 these same conclusions that we have in the Christian West and also in the Christian 52 00:04:45,399 --> 00:04:49,279 East, of course, and no one ever will yet. And this is 53 00:04:49,319 --> 00:04:53,639 a big, a big part of especially the early chapters in my book, 54 00:04:54,639 --> 00:05:00,560 is talking about how we're you know, we are as Christianity retreats in tutionally, 55 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:05,279 as the Christian Church gets smaller, as Christianity's influence on the West is 56 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:13,720 reduced, we're seeing these we're seeing these these values. Not only these is 57 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:17,240 that the the aesthetic of Christendom. You know, not only is the world 58 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:23,240 becoming uglier, but are we're we're also we're also betraying our own what we 59 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:27,639 would call values, right, And my point in the book is that, 60 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,279 you know, it's no point in there's no there's really no point in pointing 61 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,720 out the hypocrisy of these post Christian values like saying, well, you believe 62 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:41,720 you claim to you claim to care about people, but you but you, 63 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,160 and yet you kill babies right in abortion, because outside of the Christian context, 64 00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:50,680 that just to use this one example, there's no contradiction there. There 65 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:56,360 was no like there was an outside of Jewish and Christian civilization, there's really 66 00:05:56,399 --> 00:06:00,360 no sense that that that the that baby is in especially the unborn, are 67 00:06:00,399 --> 00:06:04,600 worthy objects of compassion. You know, it would be like saying, well, 68 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:08,839 you claim to, you claim to care about people, and yet you 69 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:12,839 eat meat. You know, that kind of that lame Vegan reasoning is is 70 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,480 kind of the way that ancient peoples and also non Christian peoples in the world 71 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:20,680 today, like in China and India, largely view children. And so when 72 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:26,759 you when you go outside of the borders of Christendom, you know, the 73 00:06:26,759 --> 00:06:30,040 these these values become warped. And what I'm trying to what I'm trying to 74 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:34,439 warn people is that you know, we're we're pointing out the alleged hypocrisy in 75 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:39,360 this world, in the worldview that is becoming dominant in the West, the 76 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:46,079 liberal democratic worldview is not going to work because they are fundamentally coming at these 77 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:50,800 at these moral and ethical and political questions from a different point of view than 78 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,319 we are, and they don't care if they if we think that they're hympogrants. 79 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,199 I hosted a debate recently, kind of inadvertently actually with both of my 80 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,240 friends and colleagues, Ryan Graham over at breaking points in John Daniel Davidson at 81 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,600 The Federalist on Johnsony book Pagan America, and Ryan comes from the left, 82 00:07:09,879 --> 00:07:17,519 and the argument to people who are sort of secular humanists is that, you 83 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:24,199 know, maybe in the West these things came from and were improved by Christianity, 84 00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:27,839 but we don't need it anymore. This is something you deal with in 85 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:30,399 the book. Michael, could you give us a little bit of a response 86 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:33,120 to that. Yeah, sure, I mean there are I'm sure that there 87 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:38,600 are individual people who, you know, for what reason or another, are 88 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:45,360 convinced intellectually by what we would call Christian values or Western values, civilized values, 89 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:50,000 and they think that they can using you know, their their great intellect, 90 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:58,000 they can convince other non Judeo Christian believers to follow their ethics, and 91 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,959 you know, I wish them luck, but it's not going to It's just 92 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,360 not going to happen. And again, we know what's not going to happen, 93 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:09,920 because it's never happened before. Ever. The the the ethical system that 94 00:08:09,079 --> 00:08:16,480 we have in the West, which comes from first Temple Judaism and then and 95 00:08:16,519 --> 00:08:24,319 then traditional Christianity, that ethical system has never existed anywhere else in the world. 96 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:31,240 It didn't exist prior to the spread of Judeo Christianity, and it has 97 00:08:31,399 --> 00:08:35,720 and everywhere where that the influence of the Christian West has retreated, not only 98 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:41,039 in the West, but again in Asia and Africa, but also very much 99 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,320 so in the West. Wherever that those the influence of Christianity has declined, 100 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,200 we have seen these pre Christian what do you call what we might call pagan 101 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:54,399 ethics coming back, and they come groaring back to life in a very real 102 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,399 way. But I so the thing, I think, the other important thing 103 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,879 to keep in mind mind is that our left wing friends, who who promised 104 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:11,799 that that the retreat of Christianity will not lead to the inhumane ethics, that 105 00:09:11,879 --> 00:09:16,960 in fact will become more humane as as as we become more enlightened, as 106 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:26,960 become more unshackled from the the the fetters of traditional religion, almost exactly the 107 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:35,480 opposite will certainly be the case, it is usually the most civilized societies, 108 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:41,399 the most quote unquote cultured societies, that practice the most outrageous forms of brutality. 109 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:48,320 So, for instance, you have you have Rome at its very peak, 110 00:09:48,519 --> 00:09:52,039 at the decadent phase, right at the height, so to speak, 111 00:09:52,039 --> 00:10:00,840 of the material flourishing of Roman civilization. That is when you really start to 112 00:10:00,879 --> 00:10:07,679 see the enthusiasm for crucifixion, for blood sports, or for you know, 113 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:16,679 the sexual abuse of slaves, especially children, for infanticide literally infanticide, and 114 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:22,759 you know, like murdering your your children after birth or simply leave there was 115 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,960 There are accounts of this period in Roman history where people would just walk around 116 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,720 the streets of Rome and there would be children lying on the sidewalk. Their 117 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,960 parents had just put them down outside of their house to wait for them to 118 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,159 die outside, of course, because they didn't want to have to listen to 119 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:45,080 the screams of the child wasting away. And this, uh and then this 120 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,480 but this again, this is this is what happens in a very high civilization, 121 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:54,440 right, This is this is what happens when you have the great the 122 00:10:54,519 --> 00:10:58,440 greatest minds of a society, you know, rising to the top, but 123 00:11:00,039 --> 00:11:05,000 without being without the without the influence of Christian revelation, of Jewish revelation. 124 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:13,000 And I think that this is really important to bear in mind again because we 125 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:20,600 can continue to flourish materially as a civilization. But not only are these values 126 00:11:20,799 --> 00:11:22,279 going to retreat, but they're going to be held in contempt. And if 127 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:31,039 you read people like Aristotle played out Tacitus, the greatest minds of paganas, 128 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,919 you know, Greek and Roman civilization, not only are they uniformly in favor 129 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,399 of fanticide, but they mock the you know, they mock Jews. They 130 00:11:39,519 --> 00:11:46,200 mark what feud shoes they encounter for thinking otherwise, for believing that that that 131 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:52,240 babe, that it's wrong to kill babies they considered. I think Tacitus calls 132 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,960 this a sinister and perverse practice. So so it's not to we don't we're 133 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:03,720 not insulting our progressive friends intelligence when we say that someday they're going to they're 134 00:12:03,759 --> 00:12:07,840 going to condone the murder of babies. We're not trying to you know, 135 00:12:07,919 --> 00:12:13,000 this is not a this isn't moral preening. It's just statistically inevitable. You 136 00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:20,000 know, there's that they are going to embrace these truly evil and perverse things 137 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:26,759 because because outside of Christianity people always do. It's a historical fact. And 138 00:12:26,799 --> 00:12:31,919 it's interesting that right now, in particular, I believe you believe Michael, 139 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,799 that it's about to get worse, and some people, you know, the 140 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,559 babies on the side of Roman Roads is something that Tom Hollands starts his book 141 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:46,360 with. There are there's been Ion Hercy Lee and Dawkins or Dawkins has said 142 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:52,519 some interesting stuff recently. This is there are people that were in the militant 143 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:58,440 atheist movement, aggressive atheist movement not long ago, who within just the span 144 00:12:58,519 --> 00:13:05,320 of a couple of decades are changing their minds openly about some of this and 145 00:13:05,519 --> 00:13:09,039 or maybe digging into it more deeply is probably a better way to put it. 146 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,080 Is there something about this particular moment that you think is bringing that out? 147 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:18,360 And some people, like for example, Tom Holland, I think that 148 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,080 we're having to face the consequences of the retreat of Christianity for the first time. 149 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,600 And so I think that that's why a lot of the that's why a 150 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:33,879 lot of people who especially are you know, especially intellectuals, are recognizing the 151 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:39,960 brutality and thinking about it, and some of them are coming to regret the 152 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,799 the ideologies that they supported or even advanced. So I mean, for instance, 153 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:48,960 Richard Dawkins is you know, is more culpable in a sense than Tom 154 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,799 Holland. Right. I mean, Richard Dawkins was, you know, very 155 00:13:52,840 --> 00:14:00,399 militantly in favor of stripping away the cultural religious framework of the West. But 156 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,679 I mean, I don't it won't change anything. I think that that's the 157 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:07,039 other thing to bear in mind. You know, we have all of these 158 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,039 moments right that we call it, like you speaking, you said about the 159 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:15,440 libertarian moment where Ron Paul was. Ron Paul was supposed to be this watershed 160 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:22,399 that that was going to allow you know, like classical liberalism libertarian values to 161 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,679 flourish in the republic Party, and of course that didn't happen. I mean, 162 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,919 if anything, he was just a last gasp of that old Republican tradition 163 00:14:30,799 --> 00:14:35,759 before it was taken over entirely by by this kind of status ideology. I 164 00:14:35,759 --> 00:14:39,399 mean, I mean, I don't care, but I'm not interested in politics 165 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,320 so much. But just to say that, you know, there are these 166 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:48,200 moments where people people seem to be awakening after their project goes really bad, 167 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,639 and they say Hey, maybe we shouldn't have done this, maybe we should 168 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:54,200 go back, but this ends up just being a Swan song, right, 169 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,879 And I think that I think that this is more or less what's happening now. 170 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,519 I think that the people, well, I think that the last generation 171 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:09,279 of kind of of optimistic atheists are are kind of coming to terms with what 172 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,960 they've done, with the havoc that they and their predecessors have brought, and 173 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:18,639 they've decided that all things considered, you know, they would rather be civilized 174 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:22,360 Christians than atheist barbarians. And good for them, I mean, you know, 175 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,519 welcome aboard. But it's too late. I mean, it's too late 176 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:31,759 for everyone else. It's the trends are irreversible at this point, barring a 177 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:35,679 miracle, you know, I mean, there's nothing, nothing is impossible for 178 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:39,720 God. But we but we can't. We can't turn that. It's not 179 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,480 going to be that easy to turn the dial back. It's not just going 180 00:15:41,519 --> 00:15:46,120 to be a matter of you know, Richard Dawkins coming to his senses and 181 00:15:46,159 --> 00:15:50,120 then you know, posting on Twitter that he's decided that he was wrong, 182 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:56,720 and then millions of upon millions of atheists and agnostics and apatheists decide that they 183 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,840 want to become Christian. I mean, that's never going to happen. And 184 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:04,840 I think that Christians have to be very Christians can't keep chasing this high of 185 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:08,720 seeing you know, Donald Trump appears with a Bible, and so we think 186 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:11,919 that everything is going to get better now it's you know, the right, 187 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:15,919 the uh, there's that we've reached this turning point. Finally, everything is 188 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,279 going to be easy now. And it's not going to get easy. It's 189 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,720 going to get worse and worse and worse and worse. It's going to get 190 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,799 harder and harder and harder. And we have to be prepared for that. 191 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,639 We have to be We have to be I think you you you probably know 192 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:32,639 the word asceticism, you know, like what monks do, comes from the 193 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:37,559 Greek word aschesis, which means basically the athletic training. And this is what 194 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,279 this is, what the Christian response to to persecution in the world has always 195 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:44,919 been has been askeesis. You have to get to you know, you don't, 196 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,120 you get tougher. It's not that you expect the circumstances to get easier. 197 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:52,159 You get tougher so that you can rise to those circumstances, and that's 198 00:16:52,200 --> 00:17:00,200 the only response. Not not false hopes, not idolizing politicians, not not 199 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:06,319 getting excited on Twitter when an intellectual, left wing intellectual decides to become Christian. 200 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,160 That is a very beautiful thing. It should give us heart. But 201 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,000 I mean, we shouldn't be any under any illusion that it's going to change 202 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:18,519 things. Debt it keeps you tossing and turning at night. You can't get 203 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:22,119 away from it. But the truth is the system is designed to trap you. 204 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,759 Insanely high interest credit cards and loans make it nearly impossible to pay off 205 00:17:26,759 --> 00:17:30,759 your debt. There's a new way out of the trap. Pivotal Debt Solutions. 206 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:34,079 Pivotal Debt Solutions isn't like the old school debt relief companies that string out 207 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:38,400 your debt for years. They have new aggressive strategies that can end your debt 208 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:44,839 faster and easier than you thought possible. Pivotal Debt Solutions can cut or even 209 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,319 eliminate interest, find programs to write off your balances so you owe less, 210 00:17:48,839 --> 00:17:52,880 stop those threatening phone calls, and do it all without bankruptcy and without a 211 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:59,279 loan. Bottom line, They find every solution possible to end your debt permanently. 212 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,400 Before you do anything, contact Pivotal Debt Solutions first. Talk to them 213 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,160 for free. Find out how fast they can help you get out of debt. 214 00:18:07,839 --> 00:18:14,599 Visit zapmidebt dot com. That's zap my debt dot com. Zapmidebt dot 215 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:22,039 com. Yeah, let's actually stay on that point. You know, there 216 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:30,240 are some who look around at the comments Dookins made or look at you know, 217 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:33,839 what's happening in European politics, for example, and have a lot of 218 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,720 help and say this is reason for optimism. But Michael, you just were 219 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:44,640 mentioning that this is probably false hope, and in all likelihood this is this 220 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:49,119 is false hope that things are getting worse and that things are going to have 221 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,480 to the Christian is going to have to change their approach to sort of living 222 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,039 in these cultures. Why why do you think that is? Why? Why 223 00:18:57,039 --> 00:19:00,440 do you I mean you just talked about it a little bit, But why 224 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,799 are you convinced that it's not These signs aren't signs of real change. Uh 225 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:11,200 but maybe you know the last gasps that it's too late. Well, I 226 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,240 mean the evidence is everywhere around us in our in our culture, you know, 227 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:22,039 we we have these these land these these landmark events that we we consider 228 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,160 very promising or and I include myself in this too. I mean I've I've 229 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:33,039 been trying to to become more chained. I've been making an effort because of 230 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:36,079 all the times that I've been disappointed by these things. But you know, 231 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,319 we had the election of Donald Trump, we had the the rise of the 232 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,480 Latin Mass, and there was something that was very The return of the Latin 233 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:48,880 Mass was something that was very heartening for a lot of a lot of traditional 234 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:55,240 Christians. We have you know, Anne hersy Ally's conversion, which which again 235 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,400 I don't want to poo poo that by any means, that was a beautiful 236 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,920 thing. She's a beautiful soul. Sure well. But meanwhile, while all 237 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:11,440 of this is happening, we see Germany just decriminalized child pornography. We see 238 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:17,200 school our education system becoming more and more entrenched with this, or rather we 239 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,119 see gender ideology becoming more and more entrenched within the educational system. We see 240 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,200 the Democratic Party continuing to move to left, We see the Republican Party slowly 241 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,839 transforming into a pro choice party. There's a fantastic essay and first things right 242 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:36,359 now, by Jonathan van Merin about how Donald Trump and whose aides like Kelly 243 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,160 and Conway are are helping to turn the GOP into a pro choice party. 244 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:48,880 We see Mike Pompeo, you know, actively supporting the liberalization of the Orthodox 245 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,240 Church. This is just something that's very dear to me and on behalf of 246 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:59,880 the United States State Department trying to you know, working in going to degrees 247 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:06,559 too to help advance a liberal Orthodox agenda, and in the Orthodox Church in 248 00:21:06,599 --> 00:21:11,920 Greece. It's it's just the more and more institutions, both left wing and 249 00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:21,279 right wing, are being captured by this secular liberal ideology. And and it's 250 00:21:21,519 --> 00:21:25,519 and so while we have these these things, that should that do and should 251 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,559 give us heart. I mean, they should give us Christian hope, as 252 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:33,519 in faith we we should believe that in the end God's will will be done, 253 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,039 and that if we hold to the narrow if we follow the narrow path, 254 00:21:37,079 --> 00:21:38,839 we will reach the gate of life. I mean, that's hope. 255 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,640 We should these things should give us hope, They should give it, They 256 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,039 should give us good cheer. What does what does Christ say when he when 257 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,759 he comes to the when he walks on the on the sea of Galilee to 258 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,960 the boat in the ocean, and the and the apostles are terrified because they 259 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,759 think of the ghost. He says, be of good cheer. This is 260 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,359 you know, that's that is we should be of good. These things should 261 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:00,880 harp us. They should make us, they should make us be filled with 262 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:07,200 good cheer. But if you look outside, if you look at the world 263 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:14,200 around you, we are losing our pagan values are being are becoming the norm 264 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,400 again, not only in the way that individuals conduct themselves, but also the 265 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:23,160 way that government and big government, big business conduct themselves. Those norms are 266 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,880 being enforced increasingly. They're being forced on us. They will continue to be 267 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:33,000 so Christians will most certainly, you know, suffer through you know they will. 268 00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:37,880 They will lose economic privileges, they will, churches will have their tax 269 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:45,880 exempt status, bold children, parents who are considered we will there's just recently, 270 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:51,559 right, the Congress passed the bill saying that widening the definition of anti 271 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:56,799 Semitism to include passages of the Boy, I mean in a way that would 272 00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:02,119 almost inevitably include certain passages from Scripture. So people who who faithfully preach on 273 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:07,799 the on the the events of Christ's passion and resurrection will be be imprisoned under 274 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:14,799 hate speech laws. Uh, I mean things manifestly, everything outside. Uh, 275 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,759 you know the world is getting worse and worse, and there's no there's 276 00:23:18,799 --> 00:23:22,720 absolutely no sign that this trend is being reversed. In fact, all of 277 00:23:22,759 --> 00:23:26,440 the all of the white knights that appear to save us, they you know, 278 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:30,039 they come, and they go and and and by the by the time 279 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:33,839 that they fizzle out, you know, we look around and the darkness has 280 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,720 continued to encroach on us. So I think that we I think that at 281 00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:42,359 some point the only reasonable mature thing to do is to say, well, 282 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,039 I guess I guess that I guess our hope is going to ride up onto 283 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,160 on a you know, on a white steed. I guess that we we 284 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,880 have to change track. And that's what that's what my book is about. 285 00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:57,200 So what does this look like for the daily life of the Christian and say, 286 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:03,319 uh, suburban Minneapolis or you know, even in let's say Brooklyn. 287 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,599 Obviously those are two very different places, Michael, But can you walk us 288 00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:12,119 through basically what you think is coming and how people can react, you know, 289 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:18,680 just in normal places every day America? Sure, Sure, one of 290 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:25,240 the one of the reasons that I wrote this book is because I I personally 291 00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:27,480 and I think I think other people would agree with me. I'm really tired 292 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:36,799 of people coming up with strategies and and and and manifestos and game plans and 293 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,119 because they again, they don't work. None none of them have worked. 294 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,720 None of them have. There's some there's more truth in some than others. 295 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:49,240 And you know, I think, but I didn't want to write. I 296 00:24:49,279 --> 00:24:53,319 didn't want to sit down and give everyone my personal opinion on what I think 297 00:24:53,319 --> 00:24:56,680 that we should do. What I did is I went back. I went 298 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:03,440 to to the great thinkers of modern Christianity, like from C. S. 299 00:25:03,519 --> 00:25:10,240 Lewis to to put Ben at the sixteenth to Father Sarah Rose, Orthodoxed, 300 00:25:10,279 --> 00:25:12,480 Catholic and Protestant. I mean, there's it's about you know, it's about 301 00:25:12,519 --> 00:25:18,720 a third each. I tried really hard to make this an ecumenical survey and 302 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:23,319 see what they recommend. See what these these great saints of the modern world 303 00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:29,599 have recommended. And and I was really surprised to find that almost all of 304 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,359 them said the same thing. They said, you know, politics is a 305 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,680 dead end. The darkness is going to keep spreading. The Pagans are taking 306 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,599 over. The devil is the ruler of this world, and he's asserting his 307 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:48,440 power right now. It is God has God is allowing this to happen because 308 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:55,400 Christians have become faithless, we have become too preoccupied with worldly power. We 309 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,200 have become too comfortable. We've forgotten the fundamentals of the Gospel. And so 310 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:04,720 what the only thing that we can do is to embrace the fourfold path that 311 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,240 is laid on the Book of Tobd prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and righteousness. 312 00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:17,039 We have to completely rededicate ourselves to Apostolic Christianity. We have to. 313 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,880 We have to pray more. We have to we have to devote our practices. 314 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,200 Our political practice, so to speak, should be prayer. We should 315 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,119 be praying for the salvation of the world. We should be praying for the 316 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,799 conversion of our leaders. We should be praying for the end of war. 317 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:34,880 We should be praying for the protection of innocent life. We should be fasting 318 00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:38,960 again as part of its kesis because this is how we this is how we 319 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,799 grow detached for worldly goods and comforts, and this ensures that that we won't 320 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,720 we won't forsake Christ. We won't we won't we won't abandon our faith when 321 00:26:49,759 --> 00:26:53,480 the government comes to us it tries to put us them through, or when 322 00:26:53,559 --> 00:26:57,759 our bank right, when our bank closes our bank account because we've been found 323 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:03,279 guilty of hate speech, as has already happened in the West. When we're 324 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,960 you know, when we're when our children are taking from us because we because 325 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:14,599 we try to raise them traditional Christian values. The fasting. Fasting helps us 326 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,559 to to understand what Christ meant when he says, you know, mention, 327 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,160 I live on bread alone, but from everywhere that drops in the Father's mouth. 328 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,519 It learns us to be radically dependent on God by by shedding our dependent 329 00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:34,920 on material things. Alms giving is part of I also discussed in my book 330 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:41,400 a considerable link how much the the good works performed by the early Church led 331 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,160 to the spread of Christianity. You you see, you see in the early 332 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:52,920 Church Church fathers like Terutilian and others talk about how during plagues the pa the 333 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,400 pagan authorities would basically abandon the people and it would only be the Christians who 334 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,839 are who are taking care of the sick. And even Emperor Julian the opposite, 335 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:06,319 you know, raged against the against the pagan priests and said, this, 336 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,880 this Christian cult, this this Nazarene cult, is spreading across the empire 337 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:17,160 because basically because the because the Christians so obviously care about people more than we 338 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,920 do. And so even in the midst of persecution, Christians were going out 339 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,400 into the streets, making themselves known, contracting these deadly illnesses, dying but 340 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,279 for the sake of love, and not just love for their failed Christians, 341 00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:33,160 but love for the Pagans who are persecuting them. And that's that's what I 342 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,640 mean. That's the broader sense of alms giving is self sacrificing love, whether 343 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:42,160 you're giving money or time, and righteousness, living lives of virtue, this 344 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:48,000 is, this is this is really the forgotten component, especially when it comes 345 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:53,319 to you know, excuse me, conservative Christians. We we complain about things 346 00:28:53,359 --> 00:29:00,640 like you know, Internet pornography and and whatnot, but statistically it's we see 347 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,799 that Christians use those things at equal rates to to everyone else. We haven't 348 00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:08,160 conquered these demons in ourselves, how can we hope to conquer them in the 349 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,680 world. And so we have to rededicate ourselves to living lives of holiness. 350 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,359 And and I add another one, which again is not from me. I 351 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,559 mean, it's it's the it's the oldest way of of helping to take the 352 00:29:23,559 --> 00:29:27,920 culture, but the simplest, it's the oldest and the most effective and the 353 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:34,079 simplest, but the least appreciated, which is evangelism, especially especially street evangelists, 354 00:29:34,359 --> 00:29:38,720 actually going out into the public square and preaching the good news of Christ 355 00:29:38,799 --> 00:29:45,359 resurrection. Uh. This is for me the part of the book that I 356 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,359 was the most passionate about. That my that my blurbists highlighted and said, 357 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,720 you know, this is I think this is the really the forgotten piece for 358 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:56,279 a lot of people, is that we have to get into the habit of 359 00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:00,599 sharing our Christian faith with everyone. And if you again statistically, you see 360 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:06,920 that that religions that practice street evangelism like that are the ones that grow the 361 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,079 fastest, like Mormonism has been growing at roughly the same rate in the United 362 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:18,079 States that Christianity grew had spread in the Roman Empire in the first three centuries 363 00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:22,279 when Christianity was taking over the Roman Empire. And Mormons, whether or not 364 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,160 Mormons, you know, win many even if they win, you know, 365 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,240 only one of a thousand people they preach to. If they're preaching to everyone 366 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,119 in the country and we're not. They're going to you know, we Orthodox, 367 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,559 we Catholics, we Protestants, they're going to take over. And this 368 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,079 is this is the tool that Christ gave us. Right, he says, 369 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:44,880 go and preach the Gospel to all creation. This is what Saint Peter did 370 00:30:45,079 --> 00:30:48,279 on the first Pentecost. As soon as the Holy Spirit descended, he went 371 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:53,039 out to the street converted three thousand people in the course of minutes by preaching 372 00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:59,319 the Gospel. And this is the this is the great tool that Christ gives 373 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,359 us to do as well. But it's the one that you know, traditional 374 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,119 Christians like worth up with me, like Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Protestants, 375 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:11,160 that we laugh at, right, we made fun of more minutes and to 376 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,079 hopeus withitnesses for doing these things. And meanwhile, you know they're they're beating 377 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:19,119 our butts. So I uh so, yeah, so I would I would 378 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,960 say it's it's five prayer, fasting, obsciving, righteousness, and evangelization. 379 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,279 And but I do want to emphasize that this is this this all comes from 380 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,240 the Gospels, the New Testament, the Early Church, the Church Fathers, 381 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,759 and also the Great the great modern saints. I just tried to collect all 382 00:31:38,799 --> 00:31:42,799 of their all of their wisdom, all their insights into into one book, 383 00:31:42,839 --> 00:31:49,640 and I really hope that it helps people. Is Trump going to raise taxes? 384 00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:53,559 Watched Antal on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps 385 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,279 unpack the connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. 386 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,759 Donald Trump promises raised tariffs on Chinese imports. That may cause China more, 387 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,319 but tariffs are just taxes own business which are tacked onto the products that you 388 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:10,160 pay for. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's 389 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,640 affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the watchdot on Wall Street podcast 390 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:20,759 with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And 391 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:24,640 you know, we're of similar age, Michael, and this is something that's 392 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:31,920 been in conservative circles clear for several years now. But there's there's a movement 393 00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:37,599 towards you know, Latin Mass with younger Catholics, and some people have talked 394 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,039 to this, have talked about this to talk to the subject to death, 395 00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:45,119 I should say, but I always like to ask this question and it's very 396 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,119 very relevant to the book that you wrote. What is it about people our 397 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,319 age and you know, even younger, going into teenagers and people in their 398 00:32:53,319 --> 00:32:59,920 early twenties. What is it about some members of our generation? Roughly? 399 00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:07,319 Who are that? Why are they? Why are we turning to traditionalism, 400 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:15,039 to orthodoxy in some cases after being inundated with hypermodernity. Basically, I'm going 401 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:19,640 to give a really disappointing answer to that question. I don't think. First 402 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,359 of all, I really don't think that it matters. And secondly, I 403 00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:27,039 think it's mostly superficial. C. S. Lewis talks about this, and 404 00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:35,119 he he he was part of a Christian renaissance, so to speak, in 405 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,680 his own time. He was part of this kind of revival of interest in 406 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:46,400 Christianity, especially among urbane Could's educated Englishmen. And someone asked him, you 407 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,839 know, is this Christianity taking over again? And he said, no, 408 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:54,480 probably not. He said, this is probably actually just a fat He said, 409 00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,119 we should expect the trend of de Christianization to continue more or less a 410 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,279 pace. He said, I think most of these conversions he said, I 411 00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:06,240 hope I'm wrong, he said, but I think most of these conversions are 412 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,800 probably superficial. He said, I think that they're responding to a real need. 413 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:16,320 But I think that ultimately they're not that that most people who are who 414 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:22,719 are becoming interested in Christianity right now are going to become disappointed and move on 415 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:25,639 because it's just not it's simply not what they think it is. It's it's 416 00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,199 going to be much harder. The Christian life is going to be much harder 417 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,519 than they think it is. It's not going to be it's not going to 418 00:34:32,559 --> 00:34:37,000 it's going to it's going to require, you know, self death, which 419 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,920 they're not necessarily prepared for. And I do not say this to discourage people. 420 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,320 I mean I say both to give people a fair warning and h and 421 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:52,400 also to challenge them, you know. I I because I think that I 422 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,880 think, like C. S. Lewis, that we're responding that people who 423 00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:00,199 are that the younger people who are converting to Christianity right now are doing so 424 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:06,079 because they recognize a very real, uh, a very real lack in our 425 00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:09,079 civilization. I think that they on the one hand, they into it that 426 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:15,639 people that we have become more miserable by abandoning Christianity than otherwise, that the 427 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:22,960 that that be that you know, having a culture of promiscuity, but also 428 00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:31,760 infertility that have that encouraging endless self indulgence does not bring happiness, but in 429 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:38,320 fact, paradoxically, the self discipline and self sacrifice required of mothers and fathers, 430 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,679 you know, settling down having a baby, having hopefully many babies, 431 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:49,800 right, and accepting a certain amount of dignified poverty relative especially relative to their 432 00:35:50,519 --> 00:35:55,920 to their you know, to their single or childless friends, is actually is 433 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,519 a grace. It's a source of a real enduring happiness. Is that other 434 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:07,440 other people don't necessarily share. And I think also why you know, why 435 00:36:07,519 --> 00:36:15,840 traditionalist Catholicism, why Orthodoxy, why High Church Anglicanism Because it's beautiful, because 436 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,599 it's objectively beautiful. And uh. And I think that you know, we 437 00:36:20,159 --> 00:36:25,639 the the the movement for esthetic relativism, This idea that buildings should simply be 438 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:32,280 functional, that or that liturgy should should be about connecting with people on an 439 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:37,639 emotional level, like you see in some dosor Catholic churches or even you know, 440 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:45,000 like the Hillsong Protestant churches. This idea that worship should be should should 441 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:53,400 that we should worship should be lowered to our level is is pat It doesn't 442 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:59,400 satisfy the need for for the need for liturgy that we see in the that 443 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:04,039 we have neatly in the in the human soul, and that expresses itself in 444 00:37:04,159 --> 00:37:09,880 every in every culture right, whether whether it's whether it's the splendor of a 445 00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:14,320 high mess, you know in the Roman right with the with the incense and 446 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:19,039 the Latin chance, or whether it's you know, a tribal dance where you 447 00:37:19,079 --> 00:37:22,360 put on the a special headdress in war paint. We've we've always had this 448 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:27,639 sense that worship should elevate us, that we should that we should be putting 449 00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:30,079 our best forward for for God or the gods, or whatever you want to 450 00:37:30,119 --> 00:37:36,239 say. This is in innate need to again to give the best of ourselves 451 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,559 to the highest right, to the highest, to the highest, to the 452 00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:45,119 heavens. And and I think that this is this need is awakening again. 453 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:52,519 The question is whether whether this need, this this this wholesome desire, will 454 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,239 we'll be able to triumph over, you know, the reign of sin and 455 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:02,239 carnality that's now taking over. And again I'm personally trying to be realistic about 456 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,719 it and say no, probably not. But but will many of those conversions 457 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,920 be sincere? Absolutely will the people that are coming to the church now, 458 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,679 the people that are that are converting to the church now, some of them 459 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,239 will unfortunately fall away. Let's be reasonable about that. And if we do, 460 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,360 if we if we find that some of our friends who join the Latin 461 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,840 Mass or the Orthodox Church with us, whatever, if we see them falling 462 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,840 away, let's not say let's not assume that that discredits Christianity. Let's say 463 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,679 that the that you know that the way to the to the gate of life 464 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,480 is narrow, and that many will not find it right that this is This 465 00:38:38,559 --> 00:38:42,920 has been told to us by Price over and over again. He kept saying, 466 00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:45,880 you know, most people aren't going to make it. Be aware of 467 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,119 this fact. So even if even if this fad quote unquote, even if 468 00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:55,880 this fad passes Christianity, Orthodox traditional Christianity is still true. And the people 469 00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,079 that are that are coming to the church now and are having sincere conversions, 470 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:07,360 they're not just becoming traditionalist Catholic or Orthodox because it's based in red pilled but 471 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,079 they're doing it because they want to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. Those 472 00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:15,920 people are are are going to will someday be remembered as the new founders of 473 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:22,880 Western civilization. We will look to our children's children's children's children's children will look 474 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,320 to them the way that we've looked to Saint Cyprian, you know, Saint 475 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,880 sat or Saint Clement of Alexandria's all the great fathers of the early Church, 476 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:37,559 the Apostles, right we they are the refounders of Christendom. And and those 477 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:39,519 are the people that this book is for. I don't I mean, personally, 478 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:44,880 I don't expect most Christians, most conservatives who who read this book to 479 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,639 agree with it or to get it. I you know, I I just 480 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,320 because because again because because the devil. This is the this is the age 481 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:57,559 of the devil. The Pagans are taking over. But I really do hope 482 00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:01,599 that it finds its way into the hands of of a few people that that 483 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,039 need to hear it, that will hold on to it, people that that 484 00:40:06,199 --> 00:40:10,000 that need to hear the wisdom of the church, fathers of of Pupe Bank, 485 00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:15,400 the sixteenth of uh, of of saraphrom Rose, of C. S. 486 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,719 Lewis, and that are preparing to that that we'll be ready to h 487 00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:24,320 to to to undergo the esesis, to to to to run, to run 488 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:29,480 the race and declaim the prize at the end, and to lay the foundations 489 00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:35,599 for a news Michael Warren Davis is the author of After Christendom. Thank you 490 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:37,840 so much, Michael for joining the show. Oh thank you. It's been 491 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,239 a it's been an honor. I appreciate it. Of course, you've been 492 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,760 listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashinski, culture 493 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,760 editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, 494 00:40:47,840 --> 00:41:02,639 be lovers of freedom and anxious for the fray check clubman and dumbhab on platom