1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,360 Today's edition of the Federalist Radio Hour deals with ideas and language that may not 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,359 be suitable for parents listening with young children. Listener discretion is advised. Thanks 3 00:00:09,359 --> 00:00:29,280 so much for tuning in. We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio 4 00:00:29,359 --> 00:00:32,439 Hour. I'm Emily Kashinsky, culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, 5 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,679 you can email the show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow 6 00:00:35,759 --> 00:00:39,399 us on X at FDR l s T, make sure to subscribe wherever you 7 00:00:39,439 --> 00:00:42,479 download your podcasts, and of course to the premium version of our website, 8 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:46,520 The Federalist dot com as well. Today we're joined by Alex Kasemi. Alex 9 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,399 is the author of New Millennium Boys, fascinating novel. You can find more 10 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,560 on Alex at his website Alex Kasemi ka Z E m I dot com. 11 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,520 Alex, Welcome to the show. Hey, Emily, how are you doing 12 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,320 today? Great? You have such an interesting background. This isn't your first 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,719 book you've written before. Can you just tell us a little bit for people 14 00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:11,239 who might not be familiar with your background about what led you to writing New 15 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:17,640 Millennium Boys. Yeah, I kind of you know, started in the infantile 16 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:23,120 days of the cultural or where you know, brad eyston Ellis would be reading 17 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:26,519 out my opinions on social justice, culture and just things on his podcast, 18 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:33,959 which led me to kind of dabbling with the cultural commentary in that time and 19 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,120 around the twenty sixteen era that we all kind of remember of the birth of, 20 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:44,400 you know, an aversion to the left, social justice and extremity and 21 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,560 things like that, and so my kind of criticisms around the world were kind 22 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:53,599 of really around male culture and masculinity and sort of looking at the way that 23 00:01:53,680 --> 00:02:00,239 young men are socialized through liberal media and the capitalist MTV German society, especially 24 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:06,359 my generation, so New Millennium Boys was sort of my critique on the post 25 00:02:06,359 --> 00:02:15,080 Columbine era and how it connects to boyhood today. It's funny that you mentioned 26 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:17,759 your perspective as a male, because that's one of the things I wanted to 27 00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:24,719 actually ask you about, because the book is I think, very specifically resonant. 28 00:02:25,599 --> 00:02:29,280 Well, probably I shouldn't say I'm not a man, so I can't 29 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,240 say it's residant, But I imagine, Alex that you found it to be 30 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:37,759 especially resonant with men because you're the perspective of the protagonist and you're writing as 31 00:02:37,759 --> 00:02:40,680 a perspective. Yeah, for sure, it's so salient to the story you 32 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:46,560 tell. Yeah, because I've been in those spaces. I grew up accessing 33 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,840 those conversations, and so I wanted to look to have people look at the 34 00:02:51,879 --> 00:02:57,719 reality of how men act with each other and how young men are with each 35 00:02:57,759 --> 00:03:01,520 other, to sort of not expose it in a negative way, but to 36 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,560 just make us kind of think and critique it in a way that isn't usually 37 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,240 done, because you know, there's always we were always talking about, you 38 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:15,560 know, girlhood and feminist teenage girls, and you know there's movies like Mean 39 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:19,800 Girls and things like that, but we don't ever really take a look at 40 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:24,560 what young men are going through. And it's just almost as dark, you 41 00:03:24,599 --> 00:03:30,439 know, of an adolescence and the cruelty of young We were always looking at 42 00:03:30,439 --> 00:03:34,360 the cruelty of teenage girls, but we don't ever really look at the cruelty 43 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,400 of young men as well. I want to read an excerpt from the book 44 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:46,319 that I like, disturbing behavior is trash. I say ten things I hate 45 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,159 about you is trash. I can't stop, I screamed. Dawson's Greek is 46 00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:53,879 trash. I know what you did Last Summer is Trash Shane Tagson, Lisa 47 00:03:53,919 --> 00:03:57,759 phraises his voice. Dawson's Screams is the worst fucking show and I swear the 48 00:03:57,759 --> 00:04:00,319 worst people watch it. Anytime I'm at Tower and see someone buying that soundtrack, 49 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,680 all I think about is how the world could really do better without their 50 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:06,719 bad taste. We're is so familiar to people who grew up in the night, 51 00:04:06,759 --> 00:04:11,520 like a very real yeah, aiation. How did you go back to 52 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,879 that moment in time to make it so specific? Oh God, like so 53 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:17,639 much research. I mean, it was like a ten year research project, 54 00:04:17,639 --> 00:04:21,639 but I'm so happy that you could feel that visceral feeling of you know, 55 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,839 maybe older kids and you're called the sack or something talking that way, or 56 00:04:27,079 --> 00:04:30,399 an older cousin or our teenager. You know that we know that there was 57 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:33,879 that time of one be the monoculture dominated pop culture, and you know, 58 00:04:33,959 --> 00:04:38,279 we didn't live in this time period where today, you know, there's so 59 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:45,120 many fragmented different sectors of the internet, and you know, with with the 60 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,399 kind of monoculture that existed back then, we were able to sort of publicly 61 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,879 have a group collective think about what we didn't like. So you know, 62 00:04:54,399 --> 00:04:58,040 to be able to talk like that was. I really researched, like message 63 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,879 boards, forums, watched home vide everything I tried to Like, you know, 64 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:05,439 that's why when people are very critical of it being historical fiction, I'm 65 00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:10,079 like, no, you don't understand. I looked up every word, every 66 00:05:10,079 --> 00:05:15,279 piece of slaning to make sure that it existed back then. That's actually so 67 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:19,720 interesting because probably never before in human history. This is something that I think 68 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:25,040 the book captures really well. Never before in human history except for literally right 69 00:05:25,079 --> 00:05:30,199 now, but before today, no generation had so much of a recorded record. 70 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:33,680 And when you're thinking about the monoculture, you're going to capture the monoculture. 71 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,120 In the nineties, what we started to see was the splintering, but 72 00:05:38,199 --> 00:05:41,240 it hadn't quite happened yet, so you probably could still pick up on so 73 00:05:41,399 --> 00:05:45,360 much from the monoculture itself. Yeah, no, no, for sure. 74 00:05:45,519 --> 00:05:48,839 Like I think, what's so strange about this world today? Like you could 75 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:53,800 be a gen z or could a Zumer could be on their phone and be 76 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,399 listening to some musician on Spotify that has maybe five million listens or ten million 77 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:00,519 listens, and then down the street and say, hey, do you know 78 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,680 this person? And nobody will be able to answer it. Whereas back then, 79 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,399 you know, Britney Spears was a household name. Blank Wanted to Do 80 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,600 was a household band. Like there was arena where we were all plugged in 81 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,600 into the same news, which I guess is a part of the nostalgia that 82 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:20,720 zuomers feel like they missed out on and millennials missed that there was a level 83 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:30,240 of camaraderie when we were all connected to one arena and for men. I 84 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,360 know, one of the things that's that's grabbed headlines about your book is the 85 00:06:32,399 --> 00:06:35,920 Columbine stuff, and I think it actually even has an epigraph for Eric Harris. 86 00:06:36,639 --> 00:06:43,399 Yeah, there's something about that where they were reacting against and I think 87 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,160 in a lot of cases if we kind of try to put ourselves back then 88 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:48,040 too. I mean, this was not new. This happened sixties, seventies, 89 00:06:48,079 --> 00:06:53,879 eighties. There was this reaction against the NASSA at that time, monoculture 90 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:59,319 of mass media. Yes, that really seemed to be animating for young men. 91 00:06:59,439 --> 00:07:01,399 Is that a than that you were capturing too? Yeah, I mean 92 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,279 it was so funny. I didn't watch them with Stuck ninety nine documentaries until 93 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:08,800 I had finished the book, But then I watched them, and I was 94 00:07:08,879 --> 00:07:15,040 like, yes, this confirms everything about every theory that I tried to make, 95 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:18,680 because you know that what happened at was Stock ninety nine was the exact 96 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:26,240 response that anger to the boomer capitalist culture, all these illusions of MTV that 97 00:07:26,279 --> 00:07:30,279 are being innudated, and obviously Eric and Dan Lynn were very disaffected and angry 98 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:36,480 about that. But I think it's so interesting because now in retrospect, because 99 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:42,680 of you know, what liberal new liberal beauty standards and social justice culture did 100 00:07:42,759 --> 00:07:47,879 to aesthetics and things like that, people are nostalgic for that time period of 101 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,720 like Abercrombie beauty and you know, pop stars who are gorgeous and things like 102 00:07:53,759 --> 00:07:58,079 that, versus what we see today, which is all about real beauty and 103 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:03,439 diversification people that fantasy. Again. Yeah, it's funny. It's almost like 104 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,759 the mass media of the nineties is now the hipster fashion Yeah yeah, yeah, 105 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,720 exactly, Yeah, no, no exactly, because well I think like 106 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:20,240 also if we look at you know, like the dirt bag left and red 107 00:08:20,279 --> 00:08:22,000 scare culture and all that type of stuff, they're all just kind of doing 108 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,600 like an offshoot of Mileian andopolis drag, you know, like they're like, 109 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,600 you know, because they were all in Brooklyn, so in social justice a 110 00:08:31,639 --> 00:08:35,279 part of that movement, you know, being friends with people like Harry Enough 111 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,279 and all this type of stuff. They were they were all in that world. 112 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,279 But as soon as it became, you know, to mainstream, they 113 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,679 wanted to go to the right. And it's just sort of like a way 114 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:50,399 to it's like a fashion statement, like you said, it's like a it's 115 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:54,559 like an esthetic statement versus anything of value. Right now, it's sort of 116 00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:00,559 like we're all gonna be non ironically Tipper Gore. Yes, yes, yes, 117 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:07,120 yes, because we're so angry about what the social justice era did to 118 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,840 art and culture and fashion. And but it will be interesting to see if 119 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Hollywood is going to move into the direction of being anti PC. A lot 120 00:09:16,039 --> 00:09:20,279 of people are predicting that, but a lot of people also feel like there's 121 00:09:20,279 --> 00:09:24,759 a lot of fear. So I'm glad you brought up the kind of red 122 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,360 square, dimes square, red scared dimes square. We could just call them 123 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:33,799 red square. I love that Red Square. Probably love it too. But 124 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:39,159 it's funny because there was just pg Keenan wrote a newsletter about Lomas, who 125 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,480 is an anonymous Twitter account for people who are blessed enough not to be quite 126 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,120 as online. That was docks by The Guardian as we're taping this this week. 127 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,000 And one of the interesting things from the PG Keenan newsletter is that Elena 128 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:58,559 Velez, who's an extremely hot designer fashion Circles, used the Longhouse article that 129 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:05,080 Lomas wrote for First Things to inspire a line that actually Taylor Swift ended up 130 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,159 wearing a dress from in her while music video like this is a suit. 131 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,240 I think this was just sent today, but all the layers there just unpacking 132 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:18,960 that to the line. Yes, that's what. Do you have thoughts on 133 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,600 sort of how this is starting to creep into monoculture again? Well, I 134 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:26,600 think you know it exists. Yeah, I mean I don't know if it 135 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:33,320 would be a monocle, but like maybe I think the reason that if there 136 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,320 would be any reason for any desire for it to creep in, it would 137 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,879 be because people always like to do things that are contrarian and they connect that 138 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,480 with what is cool. You know, if in the nineties, hating God 139 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:52,320 and the Bible, like Marilyn Manson was goth and edgy and extreme than now 140 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:56,039 in the twenty twenties, loving God, being Catholic, living at the quote 141 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,000 unquote trad life is more appealing, right, So it just really is about 142 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,799 where the pendulum is shifting. But I don't know if there's a level of 143 00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:11,799 true authenticity in those decisions. But all of that kind of thing that you 144 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,360 just mentioned, of the kind of domino effect, it almost it almost already 145 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,799 feels old, if that makes sense. Yeah, I see what you're saying 146 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,360 well, and almost in a literal sense too, And that the Elena of 147 00:11:24,519 --> 00:11:30,399 Les line was like Victorian dresses. Okay, here you have Taylor Swift wearing 148 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,759 this Victorian dress. We saw it after the Little Women movie came out, 149 00:11:33,759 --> 00:11:37,799 the Greta Gerwig version, there were rift stores selling out of these Victorian frocks. 150 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,720 Basically, Oh yeah, no, no, no, I get what 151 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:43,200 you mean. And doesn't she have like a lyric on the album like I 152 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:48,200 wish it was like the nineteen thirties, unless without all the racists or something. 153 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:50,840 Yeah, she does have something like that, which just again it's pretty 154 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,559 interesting. Yeah, no, no, for sure, and it would be 155 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:58,159 kind of interesting to see. I mean, I guess I think like a 156 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:05,000 mainstream pop start using that ideology in as a subculture to influence their record. 157 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:11,279 I mean, I don't know if Taylor is doing that, particularly because of 158 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,279 the correlation with Maddie and the cometwn thing on all of that, but I 159 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,279 think that definitely it would be interesting to see if. I think Jack Antonov 160 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,320 said it best in a magazine. He was like, well, what is 161 00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:28,120 the creative offshoot of Dimes Square? Like it can't just be a podcast? 162 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,519 Like is there any art? Is there any creativity? Is there any responsive 163 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:37,120 work to the world from it? Oh, that's really interesting, Antonov? 164 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:43,440 Healey, Taylor, Red Square will just go with that. It's yeah, 165 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,919 the convergence of I guess different minds on that point. He kind of reminds 166 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:52,440 me of that What's suck ninety nine thing you were saying, and how the 167 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,919 actual would suck felt to boomers, like the end of something really good as 168 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,679 they look back on it now. Yes, one of the things I wanted 169 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,120 to ask you about in the book. In a sense, you know, 170 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,960 there's there's angst and anguish, but the nostalgia, I mean, maybe for 171 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,080 there's evolutionary explanations for this. I know that science has tried to capture why 172 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,600 we feel nostalgic, but there's something that also feels almost like a peak, 173 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:24,960 And I wonder if that's you know, millennial delusion, the sort of millennial 174 00:13:24,039 --> 00:13:28,840 rose colored mir view. Yes, yes, I think I think about that, 175 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:31,840 Alex. I think it's I think it's because, like what you just 176 00:13:31,879 --> 00:13:37,360 said, so nostalgia has never been historically on our TikTok feed one hundred times 177 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,960 a day, our Instagram feed, on our on magazine articles. I mean, 178 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,200 I mean, don't you remember the BuzzFeed list era of like not things 179 00:13:45,279 --> 00:13:50,320 nineties teenagers? Did you know? Like it's it's constantly inundated with us because 180 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:54,559 I think that people idealize it as this perfect time in humanity where okay, 181 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,320 there was a little bit technology, there was just enough internet, there was 182 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,279 still a mono culture. We were not chronically online, yet the screen technology 183 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,559 wasn't you know, brainwashing in the way where you know, it was required 184 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,399 to be pinged on our phones all day or things like that. So there's 185 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,200 this feeling around, oh, Okay, this is the peak of American civilization, 186 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,840 and that's why people look back at it, especially zoomers, with this 187 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,600 level of I really truly missed out on something big and real. But what 188 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:28,600 I exposed through the book is all of the flaws of that era, or 189 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:37,600 the irony that these kind of super leftists social justice people who are are still 190 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,519 that way in the twenty twenties couldn't last a day back then without you know, 191 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:48,720 being experiencing virtualistic hate or you know, handling the real kind of violence 192 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,759 of that era. Were you a fan of the film Thirteen? No, 193 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,759 not particularly. I'm a big Dawson's Creek fan, though. Did you see 194 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:03,200 thirteen? I've seen. I don't have a you know, great like recall. 195 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:05,840 Okay, okay, Yeah, it was with Evan Rachel Wood and Nikki 196 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,120 Reid and they have the tongue rings on the cover, and it was like 197 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,039 really big in the two thousands. It was sort of like, yeah, 198 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:13,480 it was a it was very edgy. Yeah, it was like a critique 199 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,600 on girl culture at the time, right, and yeah, I feel like 200 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:26,480 New Millennium Boys is sort of a critique on adolescent male culture but also exposing 201 00:15:26,679 --> 00:15:31,279 the internet and millennials fetishization of Y two K culture and sort of the dangers 202 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:37,080 of it, but also trying to empathize with well, why did you feel 203 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,720 the world was a better place when you a looreal kids? Commercial was on 204 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,240 in between the real world or things like that. What is that? Like 205 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:48,159 you said, like, what is this warmth that everyone is associating with it? 206 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:54,200 Collectively? Debt keeps you tossing and turning at night. You just can't 207 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,879 get away from it. 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But 224 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:15,359 there were moral panics in the nineteen nineties over things that now, when teenagers 225 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,759 are being exposed to porn by the age of like twelve on average, this 226 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:23,839 stuff is really nothing. But at the time it was boundary breaking, no 227 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,000 for sure, And I think that's also why, you know, maybe the 228 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,920 dirtpeg left disaffected. Mfa art kids are angry too, because they feel like 229 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,000 they have no boundaries to push, or no or no buttons to push. 230 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,599 So the idea of making an online persona out of being Catholic or are Christian, 231 00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:45,799 or being right wing ironically is a way for them to sort of like 232 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:51,960 cope with the fact that, you know, they can't really do anything provocative, 233 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,039 which in my situation, I was so shocked when my publisher demanded a 234 00:17:56,079 --> 00:18:00,559 content warning and a trigger warning for my novel. When I, like you 235 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:04,480 said, don't we live in a post internet world where there's all of this 236 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:08,720 content out there at the click of a button. Why would a book have 237 00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:12,880 to deal with that censorship? Can you tell us a little bit more about 238 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,680 that experience, because you've talked about it a little bit elsewhere, but just 239 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:22,000 you know, the entire saga. Yeah, it was really like, I'll 240 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,079 tell you the full on, real experience. I was totally strange. So 241 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:32,839 I guess during my copy edits, these sensitive gen Z girls at the publisher 242 00:18:33,519 --> 00:18:40,960 were feeling very uncomfortable and offended by the work that they had to be doing 243 00:18:41,079 --> 00:18:42,559 by you know, their job is copy editing, by the way. They're 244 00:18:42,599 --> 00:18:47,279 not content or creatives or anything. They're just copy editing. And they felt 245 00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:52,440 alarmed by the content in the book before it was released, and particularly when 246 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:56,440 I used the name of a Columbine victim during a fight with lew and Brad, 247 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,480 because I was just trying to historically show that, you know, even 248 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:04,599 back then, you know, when this liberal culture say her name or you 249 00:19:04,599 --> 00:19:07,799 know what I mean all these type of things, or no, the victim's 250 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,240 name. Back then, they still knew the victim's names of the comby victims, 251 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,960 so I put that in there. She was so offended that I used 252 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:18,039 the girl's real name, and they got it. They got it taken out. 253 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:26,160 And then after that the publisher read the book and they said, you 254 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,599 know, we can't stalk this without a content warning because we're afraid that teenagers 255 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,759 or young people will fetishize the content in this, which is insane because it's 256 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,559 very much an evisceration, satire, critique of the culture, and it's in 257 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,480 such a hyperbolic, extreme way that anyone could read it with that way, 258 00:19:42,599 --> 00:19:47,960 even teenagers, I would hope. So, but yeah, so that they 259 00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:52,119 demanded a content warning, and they censored certain words but left certain words as 260 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,400 well. So it was pretty interesting because all I was really trying to do 261 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:03,480 was mirror the reality of the dialect of teenage boys in that era, and 262 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:06,720 anyone who lived through that aaron reads the book or like, yeah, we 263 00:20:06,759 --> 00:20:14,720 talked like this totally totally, and that's just a testament to the writing too. 264 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:22,680 But it also broaches this challenge, this sort of what's the way to 265 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:29,000 put it, the sort of anti establishment to mass media has always done, 266 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,720 which is the commercialization of art, and it's like going back to win radio 267 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:41,720 and then TV and art became quite literally technologically mass media. Can you talk 268 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:48,279 about what that meant to people like your characters in the nineteen nineties, You 269 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:52,799 mentioned MTV earlier, v H one, all of that a lot, because 270 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,119 you're doing it right now too. Yeah, yeah, came up a lot 271 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,640 in my research. You know, even if you look back at the Woodstock 272 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:08,079 footage there, the kids in the audience were like spitting on the MTV their 273 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,839 news crew because they were like stop playing Backstreet boys, Like I don't like 274 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:18,480 seeing that. I want to see more corn like for them they really see 275 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:22,599 isn't that insane? Like imagine those imagine those are your issues, like seeing 276 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,599 and SNK on MTV and like you want to see more new metal or metal? 277 00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:32,640 I mean, yeah, I definitely there was this zill gen X millennial 278 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,880 cus thing of gatekeeping and coolness and hey, we don't want that to go 279 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:41,440 mainstream and we want to preserve this. And you're a tryhard and you're a 280 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,039 bully and in like a lot of Marilyn Manson concert footage. There's a lot 281 00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:48,119 of kids just like eating up other kids for calling them posers, you know, 282 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,200 which you don't really see in gen Z at all. Like I don't 283 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:56,920 even think gen Z has the dialect of a tryhard or a poser, because 284 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,920 I don't think they've seen a society where there are sects of people who are 285 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,720 in separation culturally in real life. And that's why at the Mall was such 286 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,720 a breeding ground for clicks and high schools or you know, all the nineties 287 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:15,480 movies have clicks and things like that, whereas now it's this hodgepodge thing of 288 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:22,839 homogenize identity, which is so shocking for older people. Yeah, I mean, 289 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,680 really it is so shocking. And can you tell us more about so 290 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:33,920 the we were just talking about the Columbine and mentioned and what it inspired at 291 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,279 the Publisher and all that ridiculousness, which is in and of itself interesting about 292 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:42,640 commercializing art, and how you know now the new gatekeepers, the neo tipper 293 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,400 gores, who aren't you know, who are doing it in the name of 294 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:51,279 social justice, are still trying to gatekeep and all of that. Why was 295 00:22:51,279 --> 00:22:56,400 it important to you to deal with Columbine in the book. I think because 296 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,920 of the amount of like, you know, school shootings that has happened in 297 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:10,920 America, but also I feel like Columbine to me represented this juxtaposition of the 298 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,880 pop culture of that era that people associate with their nostalgia. You know, 299 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,960 like Brittany is in a high school in the Baby One More Time video on 300 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,480 the cover of Time magazine, Eric and Eric Harrison, Dylan Cleveland are on 301 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,079 the cover of Time magazine with machine guns, you know, on a surveillance 302 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:33,279 being clamorized. You know, a high school culture was having this weird juxtaposition 303 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,559 and how we would perceive it as well. But also because I thought that 304 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,559 because when I studied their documents and all the crime documents for so many years, 305 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:48,319 I could see that, you know, they felt truly living as victims 306 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,559 of the culture that they were living in. And also you know, they 307 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,359 I think like they would have had just been happy if they had woken up 308 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,680 as six two gorgeous chad jock players who could get cheerleaders. You know. 309 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,440 So it's like it's like sort of exploring that and then seeing that that darkness 310 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,799 that existed with them matched with darker music and darker movies and you know, 311 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,920 nine inch nail snuff tapes and like this kind of macabre attitude towards the world. 312 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,079 And then that started to happen on the Internet as well and become a 313 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:22,720 space for that. But the biggest juxtaposition I found is that which I used 314 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,400 in my book with the letters between Brown and Aurora. That was really inspired 315 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:33,640 by Eric Harris's AOL transcripts talking to girls at night talking about his feelings, 316 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,200 and I thought that was so interesting. Well for people who haven't read those, 317 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,920 because yeah, we really try not to talk about Columbine, it's kind 318 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,400 of interesting. But for people who haven't read those, can you tell us 319 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,240 a little bit about what he says and how Yeah, he's like do you 320 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:52,480 ever? Yeah, he's like do you ever look at the sky? And 321 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:55,599 like, you know, I'm so lonely and like, you know, like 322 00:24:55,839 --> 00:25:00,200 kind of upset, like andset, dealing had an obsession with love. He 323 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,640 would always draw hearts in his journal, and you know, he took a 324 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:10,039 BMW prom I think, you know, there was this weird sense of disaffection 325 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,720 that, like you kind of said, is that they were kind of creating 326 00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:18,519 it or producing it because of the filter bubble or let's say algorithm that they 327 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:23,079 were plugged into in the monoculture, and that was their response to it. 328 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,680 You know, so I guess it would be kind of interesting to think of, 329 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,799 you know. I mean, I guess the kids today, the young 330 00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:36,400 men today, would maybe respond through four chun memes or Pepe the Frog or 331 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:42,960 Inceel Dumb or things like that that responds to their monoculture of maybe beautiful Instagram 332 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,960 girls and rappers and things like that. Yeah. No, that's I find 333 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,119 that so fascinating and the way you deal with Columbine and so fascinating because in 334 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,640 a sense, there they felt, or there's an argument, they felt the 335 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:06,599 way they felt because of this new technology that mass media created archetypes, and 336 00:26:06,759 --> 00:26:10,359 people felt trapped by archetypes, by the trophy they hadn't before. Yeah, 337 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,920 yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for no, for sure, 338 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,319 And if you kind of look at it, they were kind of stuck 339 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,960 in the belief of it all, the matrix of it, all the illusions 340 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,880 of it. All they were they were believing it because they were kids. 341 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:30,200 But I mean, it's it's so strange because they also were obsessed with fame 342 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,000 too, and they would write about how, you know, we're this Tarantino 343 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:36,519 was going to make a movie out of this, like they were, they 344 00:26:36,519 --> 00:26:42,039 were. They also they also saw the opportunity to be influencers in a fucked 345 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:47,480 up way because they knew that the camera crews and they knew the media it 346 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:52,720 would come and it would be a media orgy because they could they could do 347 00:26:52,839 --> 00:26:56,039 that in that time, you know, where they could have that dent on 348 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,519 the world, which is pretty freaky. And then if we think of you 349 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:03,920 know, artists being blamed for Columbine and things like that and these sort of 350 00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:11,000 discourses, I think that people romanticize those type of discourses back then because today 351 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,799 it is so much inudation every day of a new problem, a new discourse 352 00:27:15,839 --> 00:27:19,759 that they're like, oh, remember the Columbine era where we could just blame 353 00:27:19,799 --> 00:27:23,799 Merlyn Manson and you know, watch Fox News debates, you know, like 354 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:30,319 there's a romanticization of the simplicity of how messed up it was back then as 355 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:34,880 well. About ten years ago, there was a moral panic over whether we 356 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,720 would have any great millennial authors. And I know that's going to happen again 357 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:41,839 with gen Z And you know, it's probably always been a question on people's 358 00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:45,839 mind because again, new technoic. I remember that. Yeah, yeah, 359 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,400 you will. How is it possible? I was reading a piece about the 360 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,880 new on our Levy book today, which which sounds really interesting. I haven't 361 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,160 read it yet, but yeah. The things that I wanted to ask you 362 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,359 about your book is just the act of writing it, especially because in order 363 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,240 to write it you had to be immersed in the technologies of the time, 364 00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:08,359 which were short form chats. Wasn't quite you know, snapchat or Instagram. 365 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,359 No, it's still aol. Just even like putting yourself in the mindset to 366 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,319 write a novel. What was that like? And I think you did this 367 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,480 over the course of what the last decade? What was that? Yeah? 368 00:28:18,519 --> 00:28:22,279 It was very You don't realize how dark it was until you get out of 369 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:27,119 it, because I didn't realize that empathizing and looking at these dark themes every 370 00:28:27,559 --> 00:28:32,960 day in a way that I would hope maybe someone like Peggy Ornstein or Roslind 371 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,359 Wiseman or you know, I was trying to think of it from a sociological 372 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,279 way, and then also having to build the sets, build the world, 373 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:45,680 build the music, build the characters. It was very immersive in retrospect. 374 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,799 I enjoyed. I mean it was a very difficult process, but I enjoyed 375 00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:55,960 the immersion and discipline of the process. But being able to do it, 376 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,839 I really thought of one day being able to be on a place like this 377 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,279 having these bigger discourse and conversations. Whereas you know, I'm on oor Levy's 378 00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:11,400 book may create more conversations around the state of you know, chronically online our 379 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,880 internet art or autlet or are things like that, but I'm I'm trying to 380 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:23,000 get somewhere where deeper with people to sort of think bigger and past aesthetics and 381 00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:30,720 you know, vanity. Don't let these people think you're a moron. The 382 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:33,960 Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the 383 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,000 connection between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Biden claims 384 00:29:38,039 --> 00:29:44,720 he brought inflation down from nine to one percent, blaming corporate greed and strainflation. 385 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,039 He says that people like you actually have money that they don't want to 386 00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,160 spend. Whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting 387 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,359 you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with 388 00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:02,000 Chris Markowski on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, and for you, 389 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,279 what was it? I guess. I know this book took a long 390 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:08,519 time. Could you maybe just tell us actually a little bit more about the 391 00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:12,960 process what it was like to Yeah, yeah, because things change so quickly 392 00:30:14,039 --> 00:30:19,119 now, so you spent so many years as the nostalgia was just being ratcheted 393 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,200 up month after month. That's so true. Yeah, No, it was 394 00:30:22,319 --> 00:30:26,640 very frustrating, like because everything would always make me feel like I was falling 395 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,640 behind, you know, because another you know, nineties period piece thing was 396 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,119 announce so you know, like or a nostalgia thing or you're right, like 397 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:40,960 the world was sort of constantly informing the writing process in the narrative because that 398 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:42,960 you couldn't escape it, you know, like I'd be like working on the 399 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,640 book and then I'd go eat somewhere and then like Third Eye Blind would be 400 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,599 playing, and I'm like, fuck, you know, like I can't, 401 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,839 I can't, I can't get out of I can't get out of there, 402 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,359 you know, and I think that, but yeah, no, definitely, 403 00:30:56,839 --> 00:31:00,319 it was definitely a process that was informed by the real time world, and 404 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:04,680 it was frustrating trying to keep up with it, but having an editor where 405 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,240 I had to cap it and finish, and you know, like obviously Bryce 406 00:31:11,319 --> 00:31:15,599 and Alice finishing Glamorama was a huge influence for me as well because that was 407 00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:18,839 also a big tier task for him, and getting to see that he had 408 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,880 done that not close to my age but a bit older than me, and 409 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,319 things like that, so I had I had inspirations to keep going. But 410 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,079 like, the book started out as a viral manuscript right when I was eighteen 411 00:31:32,119 --> 00:31:37,039 on Tumblr, so MTV Books bought it then, and we're waiting ten years 412 00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:41,279 for me to finish, and the publisher switched around. But yeah, I 413 00:31:41,319 --> 00:31:45,039 actually really wanted to ask you about Tumblr. I think it's probably one of 414 00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:52,279 the least appreciated, but like most influential pieces of our culture, I just 415 00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:56,559 people don't understand our young artists for sure, oh my gosh. And we 416 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,920 just don't talk about what Tumblr did, especially to people roughly our age, 417 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:04,160 as much as we should. But can you tell us a little bit about 418 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,279 how it evolved from a Tumblr project and maybe why Tumblr was so important? 419 00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:13,160 Yeah? Yeah, I think I think I think Tumblr was our you know, 420 00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:15,519 aspect of this generation's like bedroom Wall, you know, it was our 421 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:20,480 mood board, our vision, our are a this is this is my soul 422 00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:22,559 or whatever kids used to say about their Tumblr blogs. But you know, 423 00:32:23,319 --> 00:32:29,400 because I also noticed a lot of darkness and juxtapositions on Tumblr where there were 424 00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:34,000 self harm pictures than Lana del Rey, black and white gifts and then porn, 425 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:39,920 and it created this kind of concoction and dopamine hit for teenagers that was 426 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,400 so intense that I also wanted to try to mirror in my book of this 427 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,160 kind of fragmented, fast paced, I guess, almost like jump cut MTV 428 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:53,960 way of how we were consuming media. And also especially it was the time 429 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,680 of those very wordy quotes, right, like deep quotes and things like that. 430 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,160 So that's why the book has all these like kind of deeper teens speak, 431 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,920 kind of heart to heart language because that was also mirrored on Tumblr. 432 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:12,319 But yeah, Tumblr was definitely an essential to be a portal for a lot 433 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:17,200 of teenagers to learn about quote unquote art or film or music, and it 434 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,759 was a way to kind of create a community around it. But it was 435 00:33:21,799 --> 00:33:27,279 also weird because it kind of created that performativeness that we would see later on 436 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,839 TikTok and Instagram stories of oh like me, posting this video is also an 437 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:39,680 aspect of performance. Me posting this music video from the nineties is also it's 438 00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:45,440 currency for my esthetic. Yeah, it's one thing I've always grappled with, 439 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:51,039 to the extent that Judith Butler is legible, she does have her sort of 440 00:33:51,039 --> 00:33:55,119 theory of performativity. Yeah, and how we perform gender basically into existence, 441 00:33:55,160 --> 00:34:00,880 which I think obviously overlooks some other aspects of gender in this case, mass 442 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,920 media really, I do think performs things into existence and performs you know, 443 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,760 generational differences into existence. And I was wondering if you could tell us a 444 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,000 little bit more even about the the style of Tumblr. There was sort of 445 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:17,440 it's not a monoculture because it was for people on the niche platform of Tumblr. 446 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:22,440 But yes, I feel like I can tell when artists were Tumblr people 447 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:28,800 just from like all like you know, It's Halls was on Tumblr. You 448 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,639 know, Taylor Swift's a big Tumbler person. Yeah, I think so too. 449 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:37,480 I think, like especially during nineteen eighty nine posts nineteen eighty nine, 450 00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,440 and I think the way like you're right, Tumblr kind of created a visual 451 00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:49,280 fluency of visual language for how people would curate and the experience of being on 452 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,199 Tumblr with the dozens of images, but also like I guess we remember like 453 00:34:53,239 --> 00:35:00,400 the American apparel tennis skirt and the black shirt and the smoking cigarettes and listening 454 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,800 to the nineteen seventy five thing. And it's so interesting because gen z who 455 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,280 didn't some gen Zers who didn't live through that, are nostalgic for that time 456 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:14,480 period in the way millennials were inspired were nostalgic for grunge in nineteen ninety four. 457 00:35:14,639 --> 00:35:20,000 So it's so strange how that works because member Tumblr was all about soft 458 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,679 grunch, right, and so it just shows this cycle of like niche Internet 459 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:29,039 subcultures. But yeah, I don't Tumblr was definitely not a monoculture, but 460 00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,559 there was a thing where, you know, you could see a quote on 461 00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:37,320 your dashboard from a novel that someone in the UK posted, and then you 462 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,400 could repost it, and then someone in you know, Australia could repost it. 463 00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:47,000 So it did create this like global sims online have a hotel thing for 464 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:53,480 artsy disaffected kids. And I feel like maybe the people who, for example, 465 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:59,159 protested at your publisher, but they don't realize that, you know, 466 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:02,320 the people who were they're all lowercase bell hooks quotes on Tumblr, you know, 467 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,119 fifteen years ago. Uh really laid the groundwork for what was coming. 468 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,239 Well, that's that's exactly it. And that's like that, that's what I 469 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,639 mean. Like, I watched Assassination Nation for the first time yesterday, and 470 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,719 I avoided it when it came out because I had been working in my novel. 471 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,559 I was like, Oh, I don't want to I don't want to 472 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,280 get into Sam Levinson's head or I don't want you know, I don't want 473 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,519 things to mirror my ideas. I just want to do my own thing. 474 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,719 But I'm happy I waited to watch it because that is such a mirror and 475 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:37,639 a satire of what you just said, is that this online fluency that we 476 00:36:37,639 --> 00:36:44,400 were living in with the Tumblr girl feminism and liberalism and I read Belle Hook's 477 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:50,400 good books and I'm more righteous than you, and I take nudes as empowerment 478 00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:53,679 and that kind of stuff. Like they don't realize that this was a this 479 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:59,920 was an evolution, right right, No, that's such a good point. 480 00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,880 I also wanted to ask you about a Camille Paulia essay. It may have 481 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,880 been two thousand and one or somewhere around there. It was like okayenderally two 482 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,440 thousands in oh she used to ever come for salon and I actually use it 483 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:16,320 with my journalism students because she writes about at the sort of dawn of the 484 00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:22,320 new media, when news was going online, how you'd be reading a very 485 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,320 serious story or a column or whatever it is, and then you would be 486 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:32,760 bombarded with these esthetically ugly ads that were just you. You'd have the pop 487 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,519 ups. But she compared it to Vegas, and reading your book, you 488 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,599 get the kind of mass media vegues, all of the with all of the 489 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:45,760 references left and right. Is that a good thing or a bad thing or 490 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:51,039 is it just a thing? I think I think that that gaudiness of capitalism, 491 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,440 like you said, was at the peak in the nineteen nine nine, 492 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,239 two thousand and I think, you know, Douglas Rushkov said in his documentary 493 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:04,039 Merchants are cool about how exact like how many ads teenagers saw and it was 494 00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:08,480 a huge amount a day. But the kind of Vegas is actually a great 495 00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:16,079 metaphor for the simulation of the capitalism culture of Okay, you know, Loreal 496 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:21,599 Kids, Smarty's Britney Spears all this type of stuff. You're walking through it 497 00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:23,519 and a lot of I don't know. It all depends. Like some people 498 00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:28,920 find those aesthetics to be very beautiful from a warholy and pop art perspective. 499 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:35,840 Other people think it's really soulless, evil, capitalist and empty. But yeah, 500 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,639 no, that's interesting that Paulia said that. I mean, if you 501 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:45,280 think of what she said. Now, let's think about like YouTube ads as 502 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,239 well. Yeah, YouTube ads, or what's even more interesting to think about 503 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,880 is like influencer culture. I guess where something that's supposed to be you know, 504 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:59,400 one form of content is disguising commercialization basically, Oh yeah, no, 505 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,320 no for sure. And I mean a lot of people would argue that the 506 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:07,719 influencers don't have the power that they had in maybe twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen 507 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:14,079 to make people buy things, or because we were because so many people aspire 508 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,199 to be those tropes and archetypes that everyone can kind of see through it, 509 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,840 even the people who are trying, you know, so it's not like such 510 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,159 a bait and switch anymore. But I think you're right, like a lot 511 00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:32,800 of pop stars, even who are global pop stars who don't need to talk, 512 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,039 will still be promoting products and disguise advertisements, whereas you're right back then, 513 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:43,280 it was so much more transparent, right, it was so gaudy and 514 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:49,119 being like like you know, labels all over and just being so transparent about 515 00:39:49,119 --> 00:39:52,519 it. But now it's about being mysterious about it and like inserting it and 516 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:59,400 just mentioning it and things like that. Was it better? And that's a 517 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,239 tough question, but again, you've been immersed in this, You've been swimming 518 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:08,079 in this, and hard to disentangle nostalgia from well, I think like a 519 00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:12,320 question i'd have for you is, do you think that we would have been 520 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:22,239 able to make as much social evolutionary whatever human progress without the acceleration of technology. 521 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,719 I would say, yes, maybe it wouldn't have been at the exact 522 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:31,679 same pace, but I do think that like strides would move forward without social 523 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,159 media culture. What do you think? Yeah, And you know, it's 524 00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:37,840 funny you say that because I think I've mentioned on the show a couple times 525 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,800 the last couple of weeks that I've been watching Malcolm in the Middle for the 526 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,679 first time. Oh my gosh, And yeah, I mean, speaking of 527 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:52,000 like commercialized content from that time period. It's amazing how much better of a 528 00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:54,400 job that show did. And this sounds crazy. I understand, but how 529 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,000 much better of a job that show did than pop culture now dealing with things 530 00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:04,079 like race and gender, yeah, and sex and marriage and all of that. 531 00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,119 It's just it actually is blowing my mind. I didn't even as a 532 00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:08,840 cynic, I didn't expect it. And so I think there's when you look 533 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:14,960 at these like gallop charts, how Americans perceive race relations over time, Black 534 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,840 Americans, wider Americans. Most people think it's gone backwards. You know that 535 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,719 we have race relations have gotten worse since about like twenty twelve. So I 536 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:27,840 actually wonder if the there's a real argument that after a certain point, maybe 537 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,519 it was nineteen ninety nine, maybe it was two thousand and nine, things 538 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:35,360 started to devolve. Well, I think like what you're kind of, you 539 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,400 know, talking about, is that on a show like Malcolm in the Middle 540 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,199 or nine or two one O that won't that tried to deal with these issues, 541 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,480 it was kind of like, oh okay, like you know, I 542 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:51,079 can see this presented in an artistic, valuable way that makes me think and 543 00:41:51,159 --> 00:41:53,679 empathize, but you know, okay, now that's it, And that rather 544 00:41:53,719 --> 00:42:01,639 than the inundation and the hysteria around these issues, whereas things were presented in 545 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:07,239 maybe a more nuanced way, and I think maybe that's probably what you're perceiving 546 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,760 from the Malcolm in the Middle. But also we have to remember that this 547 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:14,880 is that time time period where like, you know, I think like legally 548 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,639 Blonde is actually one of the greatest like depictions of like a like a feminist 549 00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:22,880 from the two thousands, Like that girl that is sitting down with L when 550 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,440 she's getting to Harvard and she's like kind of you know, you know, 551 00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:32,480 like more masculine, morel yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 552 00:42:32,559 --> 00:42:37,320 yeah, like that right, And back then that's just what that was, 553 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:47,480 and and not everyone had the jargon of liberal academia that bled into our culture, 554 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,880 which probably was not ever meant to happen, Like there was a reason 555 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:58,440 that these things were fringe and academic. Whereas we when we got into this 556 00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:05,079 weird cultural war thing in the twenty tens and early twenty Yeah, the twenty 557 00:43:05,119 --> 00:43:08,679 tens, I feel like all that type of energy that was coming from the 558 00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:15,960 fringes that was around we just didn't see it started to come into our quote 559 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:22,800 unquote mainstream dialect. And I think that's when everything got really bizarre. One 560 00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:27,000 last question for that, you go is basically like you could tell us what 561 00:43:27,039 --> 00:43:30,039 you've learned from the reaction of the book, And everything I've seen has been 562 00:43:30,159 --> 00:43:34,719 really positive. But as you've been there's a lot of ability. So you've 563 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,960 seen this, you've seen this closer than I have, So tell us just 564 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,519 a little bit about what the reaction has been and maybe what you've learned from 565 00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:45,760 it. It's extremely a divisive book. There's a lot of people who think 566 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:52,519 that the novel is supposed to be some shock literature book, whereas I'm making 567 00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:59,960 a commentary on and critiquing why we consume that genre and looking at at adolescent 568 00:44:00,079 --> 00:44:02,599 culture and and you know the Postpon Combine era, and there are people who 569 00:44:04,039 --> 00:44:07,440 can feel that and see that, and then there are people who just are 570 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:15,599 so upset about me writing basically a screenplay disguised as literary fiction because people want 571 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:21,280 a kind of hardcore voice. But I felt like for these issues, the 572 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,880 best thing that we could do is watch and look rather than having too much 573 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,280 character narration. But the book has been extremely divisive. There has been you 574 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:35,920 know, extreme liberal feminists on Instagram and Twitter who have said that the book 575 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,280 is misogynistic and hateful and all this type of stuff, But how are we 576 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:44,360 able to discuss or look at these issues. And then also, you know, 577 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,360 then there was a backlash of course with the the kind of kind of 578 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:52,599 got banned in a way when it got added to a list, a book 579 00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:57,000 ban list, and there were moms calling the library trying to get it dropped. 580 00:44:57,039 --> 00:45:00,159 And that was wild as well, but a weird way. I wish 581 00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:04,360 people would understand that I'm on their side, you know, like I'm trying 582 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,400 to look at all this stuff too in a critical way. I'm not saying 583 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,440 this is good. I'm not celebrating the themes in the book. I'm trying 584 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,920 to understand why do teenagers watch shows like American Horror Story, Why do they 585 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:21,440 watch shows like Euphoria? Why why do we historically have the fetishization of the 586 00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:30,440 teen exploitation genre, And why do they also watch these viral YouTube videos that 587 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,800 are literally just a day at high school in nineteen ninety seven. I mean, 588 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,599 it's the craziest trend. The massive views. Oh yeah, it's like 589 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:45,000 millions millions of views and there and in the comments section are all kids being 590 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:49,079 like, this would have been perfect. I wish I had this, And 591 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,880 ironically, like you know if you were queer, black, or Spanish or 592 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,800 anything that they you know, look at the things that they're passionate about, 593 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:04,159 these these zoomers. It's like you would not have a fun time in a 594 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,039 public possibly, you know, there were there was public racial tax hate, 595 00:46:08,119 --> 00:46:12,760 all these things. And that's what I found to be the biggest irony when 596 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,800 I was working on the book, is that this generation that fetishizes this culture 597 00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:22,679 couldn't last a day in that culture when they fetishized the culture that they created 598 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:25,280 too, or that they wanted to create. And there's somewhat miserable in it. 599 00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,039 Yeah, no, no, exactly exactly. I mean that's what I 600 00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:34,800 hate it here by Taylor's about right that any any decade we will find a 601 00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:39,599 reason to suffer. Yeah, exactly, Yes, Alex, Becauseman is the 602 00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:44,639 author of The New Millennium Boys with a Z. Alex, thank you so 603 00:46:44,679 --> 00:46:46,480 much for joining us. This is fascinating congratulation on some of the book. 604 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,079 Thank you so much, Emily. It was a beautiful conversation. I really 605 00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:52,519 appreciate it. Of course, you have been listening to another edition of the 606 00:46:52,559 --> 00:46:55,960 Federalist Radio Hour. Emily Tishenski, culture editor here at the Federalist will be 607 00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,960 back soon with more. Until then, be lovers of freedom and thank you 608 00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:00,760 just for the fray