WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:21.079 From Powerline blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot Com. This is the 2 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:36.399 power Line Show with your host Steve Hayward. Well, hi everybody, and 3 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:41.399 welcome to a bonus podcast episode in the classic format with me in a conversation 4 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:46.000 one on one with a notable person. And today's notable person is a repeat 5 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:50.320 guest and an old friend. It's Jeremy Carl, nowadays a senior fellow at 6 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:54.240 the Claremont Institute. He spent many years and I first got to know him 7 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:58.840 during the years he worked at the Hoover Institution with the Secretary of State George 8 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:03.159 Schultz. Jeremy's really done it now. He's written a brand new book just 9 00:01:03.239 --> 00:01:10.920 out called The Unprotected Class, How anti white Racism is tearing America apart. 10 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:15.159 And first of all, the book is wonderfully written. I highly recommend it. 11 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.400 It covers the entire waterfront and not just particular issues like crime or you 12 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.439 know, diversity and affirmative action in higher education. He's got it all from 13 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:26.879 A to Z, and I say he's done it now. He says all 14 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:32.079 the things that you're not supposed to say and brings up statistics that are actively 15 00:01:32.120 --> 00:01:36.799 suppressed, and so he joins a very small number of people who have bravely 16 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:41.680 been working in this field, like Heather MacDonald, Steve Saylor, Zach Goldberg, 17 00:01:41.719 --> 00:01:45.040 a young guy that we referenced several times in our conversation to follow. 18 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.760 And so, you know, it's lucky that I'll put it this way, 19 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:53.079 Jeremy lives in a remote location, far away from where the troublemakers might want 20 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:57.560 to put up a tent encampment for Gaza or something on his front lawn. 21 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:02.719 But nonetheless he's going to start attracting a lot of hate because, of course, 22 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:07.760 you know, hate speech these days is defined as any speech that a 23 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:13.759 liberal doesn't like, and racism is defined in my lexicon as any opposition to 24 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.759 the political agenda of the left. So, without further ado, let's get 25 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:23.159 into some of the highlights of The Unprotected Class with Jeremy Carl. Well, 26 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:27.000 Jeremy Carl, Welcome back to the power Line podcast. I think this is 27 00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:30.159 your third or fourth appearance with us, but you have really done it now 28 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:36.680 with your new book, The Unprotected Class. How anti white racism is tearing 29 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.639 America apart. And I guess my first question is, I mean I first 30 00:02:39.680 --> 00:02:44.439 met you, I don't know fifteen years ago through our mutual environmental work, 31 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:46.360 which was yeah, i'd like to say kind of mainstream. But the point 32 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:51.599 is what prompted you to commit this heresy? I mean, you are saying 33 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:53.319 things that you're not allowed to say, right, So what prompted you to 34 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:59.159 do this book links treatment that is guaranteed to embroil you in lots of controversies 35 00:02:59.159 --> 00:03:01.400 and make people call you names? Right? Well, I think Steve, 36 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:04.719 you just you hit on it. It's always, of course great to be 37 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.120 back when somebody says I'm not allowed to say something. Maybe that's a little 38 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.919 bit more of my inner toddler coming out, but I'm, well, guess 39 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:15.080 what I'm going to say it? And I mean, I think the reason 40 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:19.039 why they don't want us to say it is because it's an important issue, 41 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.280 and I felt like I had the background and interest to write it. I'd 42 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:25.639 been writing some of this stuff before, and I think, you know, 43 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:29.639 I think one of the things that I've sort of compared it a little bit 44 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:32.360 to Jonah. You know, God tells him to good in Nineveh, and 45 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.879 he's like, I don't really, not really sure I want to do that, 46 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:40.159 and then the fish swallows him up. And gets spit back up on 47 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.080 the beach, and then the next time God tells him to get in Ninva, 48 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.000 He's like, okay, okay, you know, I'll go. That 49 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:51.759 experience for me was I'd written about these issues pretty candidly when I'd been at 50 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:54.360 the Hoover Institution and in my early days at Claremont, and I think gotten 51 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:59.759 some attention. But it was when I had been running away like Jonah and 52 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.639 gone into the Trump administration, was serving in a senior role having nothing to 53 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.360 do with this in the Department of the Interior, and then all of a 54 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:11.039 sudden, the Washington Post and other folks began to take a much greater interest 55 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:14.560 in some of my writings, and I said, well, hey, it 56 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:15.839 looks like I'm not going to actually be able to run away from this, 57 00:04:15.920 --> 00:04:20.959 so maybe I should really just double down at this issue really seriously. And 58 00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:26.800 kind of out of that experience came this book. Ultimately. Yeah, so 59 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.480 in other words, lean into it, which makes perfect sense. So for 60 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.879 listeners who don't know Jeremy or this work or the subject, I'll just sort 61 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:38.600 of say, as a summary statement, Jeremy, that you include in the 62 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:44.399 book a lot of statistics, facts, facts, and figures on what's really 63 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:47.759 going on with racial matters in America. Listeners who are familiar with the work 64 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.519 of Heather McDonald or Steve Saylor or tour three other people, but only tour 65 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.360 three other people will know a lot of the story. I mean, myths 66 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.800 about redlining, the truth about crime and education, and so forth. I 67 00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:05.839 think you assembled it in a very readable and crisp way. But you also 68 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:10.720 get at some things here that also are sort of known by people who follow 69 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:15.279 this closely. But I think most Americans don't follow this closely, and I 70 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:19.600 want to get to some parts of all that. But I guess maybe I'll 71 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:25.519 start here and you get into the sum toward the end of the book. 72 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.600 Is the problem of well, first of all, I should I should have 73 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.399 you just defined a little bit. I'm assuming that listeners know too much already. 74 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.279 What do you mean by anti white racism? Give me some definitions and 75 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:41.680 two or three features of what you mean by that. Sure, Well, 76 00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:44.319 let me do a few things first. I mean, you kind of touched 77 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.879 on the fact that other people have been around this issue, and in fact, 78 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:51.279 Heather MacDonald you mention she was the first person I called when I decided 79 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:57.519 to do this book because I think she's really probably done some of the best 80 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.399 work on this, and I thought she'd have some good advice, which she 81 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.399 did. I think the difference in what I've done is, well, there's 82 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:09.319 a couple of things. When is my book is much broader in scope. 83 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.720 It's really a survey course. So like somebody like Heather has done, you 84 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.439 know, like a really awesome book on crime, and other people have done 85 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:20.759 really awesome books on wokenesses and education and any or whatever, and or the 86 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:26.319 civil rights law like Richard and Nani has done, or my Claremont College Christopher 87 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:30.439 Caldwell, and I'd recommend all of their books. But what I've tried to 88 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:32.639 do is kind of say, you know, it's the peribial blind man touching 89 00:06:32.639 --> 00:06:35.680 the elephant. Any of them are kind of touching a part of the elephant. 90 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:40.160 And I kind of tried, by looking at twelve different areas where this 91 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:43.439 is going on, to kind of say the elephant is an elephant. You 92 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:46.079 know, there's the same thing underlying this, And that kind of gets to 93 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.759 your question about so what is anti white racism kind of mean atly says I'm 94 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:57.959 using it, So I think it's it's racial discrimination and animous against white Americans. 95 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:00.399 It's just that simple. And sometimes, you know, I actually thought 96 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:04.480 about using the term discrimination in the title as opposed to racism. But the 97 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:10.079 problem is that there are sometimes things going on that are discriminatory that maybe are 98 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:14.639 not explicitly done for racist reasons. And there's also a lot of things out 99 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.040 in the culture, and this particularly came out and say, my chapter on 100 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:24.639 Hollywood that are quite explicitly racist but don't necessarily manifest themselves is exactly what you 101 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:30.560 call discrimination. And so I kind of use racism ultimately as a catch all 102 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:35.879 for kind of this phenomenon. But it's everything from employment discrimination to preferences in 103 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.439 jobs, to an entertainment culture that is telling white people that they're less, 104 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:46.680 to a military that is penalizing white people, to racial preferences in terms of 105 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.639 healthcare treatment. You kind of name it. So that's kind of my short 106 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:54.879 definition of what we're seeing. Yeah, right, I mean, you have 107 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.399 fifteen chapters, and you know, you mentioned you have a chapter in entertainment. 108 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:01.839 One of my favorites is the unbearable whiteness of the Green movement. I 109 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:05.800 mean, the whole that that's a subject that's long been of interest to me 110 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:11.199 and explains of course why climate justice and and what climate and race have attempted 111 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:15.920 to be fused so many times, big business, the military. Right, 112 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.040 So yeah, you really bring together all the different flash points, uh and 113 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.519 show that it's everywhere. Right. Yeah. By the way, you know, 114 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.600 it's it's popular to say that Brooks has said he couldn't make Blazing Saddles 115 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.440 today, Right, sure, even though the script was written by the most 116 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:37.799 prominent black comic of the time, Richard Pryor. I think the movie that 117 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.399 I think you couldn't make today was made by liberal was true lies. You 118 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:45.679 remember that from the mid Night Yeah, and you know the bad guys were 119 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:50.399 Arab terrorists known as Crimson Gihad. Well, there's no way a studio would 120 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.039 allow you to make them the bad guys today, right, Okay, this 121 00:08:54.120 --> 00:08:58.320 is sort of widely known, but there's more serious problems here. You know, 122 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.200 this is playing out in employment, Screa, nation, college admissions. 123 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.559 We're familiar with. One of the things that I've been onto for a while, 124 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:09.200 and you get at is this really does seem to be a problem of 125 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:15.360 that emanates more from white liberals. Guilty white liberals. Now, I think 126 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:16.600 really the root of the problem. I mean, you cite the great Zach 127 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:20.679 Goldberg, who I know a little bit, Yeah, work on this, 128 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:22.919 but say a little bit about that, because I think, you know, 129 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.840 the problem is it's our not our team exactly, but it's guilty white liberals 130 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:31.440 are driving this. Yeah, And Zach's work is great, and I cite 131 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:35.600 it, and in fact, I expect I've got a couple follow up books 132 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:37.799 in mind, and I think one of them will go a lot more into 133 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.080 some of the great work that Zach has done. But I think there's a 134 00:09:43.159 --> 00:09:46.080 there's a couple of different things going on with white liberals. I mean what 135 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:50.000 I do think that they're probably the biggest contributor to the problem, and therefore 136 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.399 it's really important to talk to them about them. At the same time, 137 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.399 I don't want to whitewash no pun intended, the rule or the role of 138 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:03.879 kind of my Nordy political activists and leaders here and say they don't have agency 139 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.960 or you know, it's just these bad liberal white people, because then I'm 140 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:11.360 kind of committing the same sin that I'm sort of accusing other people, which 141 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:16.559 is sort of like inflating the role of whites and everything that might be bad 142 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.200 out there. But that having been said, I think they are a real 143 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.240 problem. I have a couple kind of thoughts on why that is. I 144 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:30.320 mean, and Zach Goldberg's work is actually really interesting because he's gone through and 145 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.279 he's at the Manhattan Institute for folks who don't know him, He's gone through 146 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:37.679 a lot of general social survey data, and what he finds really fascinatingly is 147 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:43.480 with pretty much every group and every ideology, you have what's called an in 148 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:46.879 group preference, so people sort of prefer their own group. This is not 149 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:48.799 surprising, and you get a little more of it in conservatives typically and a 150 00:10:48.799 --> 00:10:52.120 little less in liberals. But as long as this doesn't go overboard, this 151 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.240 is not a problem. I mean, just like people prefer their own mother 152 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:00.240 to some random woman on the street, right like this, this is not 153 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:05.840 necessarily concerning except white liberals and white liberals. And I'm not aware of this 154 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:07.399 in any other country, with any other group. I'm not saying it hasn't 155 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.919 happened, but I'm not aware of it. Have an outgroup preference, so 156 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:15.519 they think that other white people are dumber, more criminal, you know, 157 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.879 you kind of name it. They feel very coldly toward other white people. 158 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:22.360 And I can almost only explain this in a couple of ways. I mean, 159 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:28.360 one is that at some level it's a status thing. So you can 160 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.919 go talk about white privilege a lot if you've got one hundred million dollars and 161 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.159 you know that you're going to be able to get around any sort of deficit 162 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.000 that I put on you for being white, maybe either literally because you literally 163 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.840 can gain the system, or fine, you're going to discriminate against me. 164 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:48.200 And so I'm only going to have ninety seven million dollars, right, and 165 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.039 so it doesn't really matter to me in a way that it will matter to 166 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:54.639 a middle class white person. So I think that's one thing that's going on. 167 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.960 The second is that I think you see a huge prevalence and I think, 168 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.639 again this is pretty well established in the literature at this point that it's 169 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:09.159 not a weird statistical artifact of mental illness in white liberals, right. I 170 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:13.360 think that's a lot of what's going on. These are just kind of unhappy, 171 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.320 depressed people, and they're lashing out and they don't like themselves and they 172 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:22.960 kind of transfer that to their feelings about other white people, and unfortunately, 173 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.000 they run a lot of the institutions. So we're stuck with that. Yeah, 174 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:28.159 No, I've seen some of the data on that. It's really quite 175 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:33.159 startling. But let's stick with that point for a minute. You know, 176 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:39.639 you you include some of the polling data that goes back decades about you know, 177 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:45.080 wide approval of interracial marriage attitudes that have changed dramatically from the forties and 178 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:48.559 the fifties. Right, there's really almost nobody who opposes interracial marriage. You 179 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.440 know, ninety five percent of Americans say, well, we did vote for 180 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:54.759 a black manster president, just not that long ago, right, Yeah, 181 00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.120 And so all the old markers of racism show that it's just declined to the 182 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:01.559 vanishing point. One of the things that I'm curious about is, I mean, 183 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.799 I have a sense, and we can say more about this in a 184 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:07.840 moment, perhaps, is that an awful lot of Americans, to the extent 185 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:11.360 they pay attention to this, are really tired of it. Everything's racist. 186 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:16.320 It's been promiscuously overused, right. Polsters and surveyors seem uncurious about this. 187 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:20.679 You know. Zach Goldberg has had to go through a lot of general social 188 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:26.000 service data and do a lot of very fancy statistical analysis to investigate these questions. 189 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.799 But I'm amazed that PEW or or any of the major poling and surveying 190 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:35.799 groups aren't asking questions along those lines. Are have we overstated racism? Do 191 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:39.600 you exploring some of these questions that bring up in your book? And they 192 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:45.360 all seem to be avoiding it. I'm guessing that's not an accident. No, 193 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:50.799 And I think it's some combination of bias and not kind of wanting to 194 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:54.120 talk about uncomfortable subjects. I mean, you know, it took me a 195 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.039 while even to just get comfortable talking about my own book in cocktail party conversation, 196 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:03.519 right because it's and I've gotten a lot better at it. And I 197 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:07.159 think one other thing that's been really encouraging is that I think the environment has 198 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:13.159 gotten much freer around these issues, even in the kind of two years since 199 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.039 I started writing this book. You know, at first, when I was 200 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.080 started writing it, I was like, whoa, you know, I'm kind 201 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.799 of on the narrow tightrope here. And now I feel like there's mainstream people 202 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:26.159 like Tucker, like Charlie Kirk, like Matt Walsho kind of were talking about 203 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:31.600 in the media, and even you had Donald Trump just last week kind of 204 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.320 made a comment about anti whiteness, and you know there were anti white and 205 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.519 that wouldn't be you know, good if we were doing that. So I 206 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.480 do think that these issues are being more mainstreams, but at the same time, 207 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:48.039 our establishment institutions are remarkably incurious about them, which is why I decided 208 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.879 to become curious about them. Yeah. I mean, one of the things 209 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:54.480 you say in your last chapter about remedies is a creative preference cascade against us. 210 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:58.080 In other words, the more people start speaking out openly about it, 211 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:03.720 the more more people will start feeling liberated to speak out against it, and 212 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.559 then suddenly you have a debate instead of just a few figures, even as 213 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:09.960 formidable as Charles Murray and Steve Sailor, who people can ignore. But if 214 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.000 there's more and more people, then you can't ignore them. So yeah, 215 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:18.720 I think that's uh. I think that's right. So, by the way, 216 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.120 here's something that I thought I knew an awful lot about this, But 217 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:28.279 one fact I learned from your book that I absolutely floored me is that this 218 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.080 cliche we've been hearing for a long time now that diversity is our strength originated 219 00:15:33.159 --> 00:15:37.720 with dan quayle Yes what's astound? How would you find that out? By 220 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.480 the way, and that means tell that story. It's amazing. I can't 221 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:46.399 remember, but but the origin of it is in the week of the La 222 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:52.440 riots to Japan, and this is kind of Japan is not quite at its 223 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.519 peak yet, but it's still riding very high as our big competitor that we're 224 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.720 all worried about. And these Japanese businessmen say, I mean, I think 225 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:04.759 they kind of say, you have these problems with diversity, and that's why 226 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:07.559 you're having this, and Quail, you know, not known as the great 227 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:12.399 intellect of the Republican Party says no, actually, diversity is our strength, 228 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:18.559 and that's sort of where this phrase comes from. And so that's that's very 229 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.919 revealing to me, I think, and I mean again, I think an 230 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.399 assertion one of the controversial assertions I don't spend an excessive amount of time out 231 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:30.600 in the book is that I just believe that all things being equal, diversity 232 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:36.240 is a weakness. And I want to be very careful and quantify exactly what 233 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.519 I mean by that. So I'm not suggesting that a complete, uniform, 234 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:42.720 sort of fascist, you know, society is the way that we want to 235 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:48.279 go. And I'm not suggesting that diverse people are not good people. I'm 236 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.919 suggesting that any society, no matter how high the human capital in is of 237 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:59.399 anybody you're bringing in, as you have excessive amounts of diversity, this tends 238 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:03.160 to create social problems of all types, especially in a multi ethnic democracy, 239 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:10.640 rather than, rather than solve problems. And in fact, even my elite 240 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.200 men or Secretary of State Schultz, who I worked with for many years and 241 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.319 who probably did not have the same views on this sort of issue than me, 242 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:22.359 but he always felt that governing over diversity was the kind of great challenge 243 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.920 of the twenty first century, and that I agree with. Yeah, I 244 00:17:26.960 --> 00:17:30.000 mean, well, so, first of all, let's do two terms together 245 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.079 that are become so charged. Diversity is one of them. The other one 246 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.799 that's linked to it in many ways, of course, is multiculturalism. You 247 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:41.720 remember that was the big phrase twenty thirty years ago. And on the surface, 248 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:45.440 no one can be against multiculturalism. And from the standpoint of common sense, 249 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.920 it's good to learn about other cultures. That used to me learning the 250 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:53.200 language of another culture, whether it's Italian or Swahili. Of course, in 251 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:57.839 practice, what it became was ideological and it meant hate every hate your own 252 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.039 culture, right, Western culture right, and diversity is kind of the same 253 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:07.759 thing. I mean, we'll come back to what diversity rightly understood is perhaps 254 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.440 in a moment, but or maybe right now is the great melting pot, 255 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.480 right right. You know the Lincoln's famous Fourth of July speech when was eighteen 256 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.160 fifty eight, talking about and everybody comes here and they become Americans. By 257 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:23.240 right, it's not just for British people. It was, you know, 258 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:26.720 it was part of his argument with Douglas. So diversity now has become this 259 00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:33.720 cudgel of left. And actually, I guess I think that diversity is the 260 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:38.160 substitute for the proletariat that's just receded with the failure of Marxism. Right, 261 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:44.720 here's the thing I think, you know, the work of actually Robert Putton, 262 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.000 I'm a liberal. I mean you reference in my places, and you 263 00:18:48.039 --> 00:18:52.279 know, he was startled by his findings that I put it this way, 264 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.839 when you do too much diversity, it reduces social trust. Right. And 265 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.359 by the way, there's some European social scientists who looked at this and also 266 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.880 concluded the same thing and run away and terror and avoided the subject right right, 267 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:08.920 and so sorry, I'm starting to ramble here. I'm trying to think 268 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:12.279 of a question, which is, well, let me do it this way. 269 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.400 Unless someone read your whole book, if they're only reading reviews and some 270 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:21.480 of the controversies, they may miss something, which is I think you get 271 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:26.240 diversity rightly understood, which is we all to get back to the old principle 272 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.160 that all men are created equal, that human beings are human beings first, 273 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.480 right in a particular ethnic identity separately. And anyway, I'll stop there and 274 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.160 finish my thought and do it better than I've just done. Because you're the 275 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:42.720 author, I'm not. No, that's great, and Putnam's work is really 276 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.440 interesting, and in fact, I think one of the most interesting things about 277 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:51.079 Putnam's work to me is not only does he find a decline in social trust 278 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.920 between groups, and to me, that's it may not be intuitive to everybody. 279 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:56.680 To me, that's kind of intuitive that you'd find that. But I 280 00:19:56.680 --> 00:20:02.079 think the fascinating thing about Putnam's work is that he finds even within groups, 281 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.839 so you know, Asian Americans in a diverse society will even mistrust other Asian 282 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.880 Americans more, And that to me is not an intuitive finding, but he 283 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.839 does find that and as far as I know, it's a robust finding. 284 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.480 So that's that's kind of very interesting. And yeah, I mean I do 285 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.920 it was one of the things I'm kind of proud of about this book and 286 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:25.400 I've gotten I mean, it's sold really well and it's had lots of very 287 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:29.000 nice reviews, and more I've heard coming down the pipeline is that I've had 288 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:32.359 some folks who are pretty pretty far out on the extremes say, wow, 289 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:37.519 you know, this is kind of a groundbreaking book that that doesn't really it 290 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.720 doesn't it doesn't kind of hold back very much. It's it's really pretty tough. 291 00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.559 And then I've had a lot of other people, I think correctly say, 292 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:48.279 you know, this is written in a very even handed way. And 293 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.720 I've and I've really tried to do that. I've I've tried the subject is 294 00:20:52.359 --> 00:20:56.440 it's combusted. It's combustible enough that I didn't feel a need to kind of 295 00:20:56.759 --> 00:21:03.839 add a bunch of overheated rhetoric or overheaated proposals for how we'd address the problem. 296 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.000 And so you know, that's something that's actually I've really been pleased with 297 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.240 about the book. But I do think that these sorts of problems adversity. 298 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.519 In One of the ways that I try to be moderated is that I'm not 299 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:19.359 suggesting that we are going to somehow magically roll back the clock to some alleged 300 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:23.200 perfect era that wasn't, by the way perfect anyway, but that I've just 301 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:26.200 said, hey, there are some eternal principles, and you and I, 302 00:21:26.240 --> 00:21:30.200 as Claremont guys, will we'll kind of gravitate towards this. There's some eternal 303 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.200 principles that, even if we haven't always lived up to them as a country, 304 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:40.240 are good principles about equality and treating people with individual respect, et cetera. 305 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:42.960 And we should try to organize our social and political systems so that we're 306 00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:48.799 elevating those principles as opposed to kind of, you know, trying to start 307 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.119 race wars, which is sort of what our policies seem to be doing right 308 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.119 now. Yeah. Right, I mean, your book directly says America's future 309 00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:03.480 is multiracial, multi multi ethnic, and and that blaming white people for everything, 310 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.079 the sort of these courses on whiteness and universities, right, that's not 311 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.319 a formula for people getting along. That's a formula for division, and okay, 312 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:15.880 let me bring in sort of a thought that I know you have. 313 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.440 Well that's slightly beyond the scope of your book, but it bears on it 314 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:22.079 a bit, and I want to do it this way. So you know, 315 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:26.039 a lot, I'm not sure if it's a lot, but some young 316 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:32.319 especially white males, college age and so forth. Maybe it's too strong to 317 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:34.319 say that some of them are attracted to white nationalism, but you know, 318 00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:40.359 you think of that ragtag, a small mob of people in Charlottesville in twenty 319 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:45.160 seventeen that got people so exercised, right, And one explanation for that is 320 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:51.039 not simply the perception that they're being made the scapegoat for everything wrong with America. 321 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:55.559 But second, especially if you're of a conservative disposition of any kind, 322 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:57.480 you have grown up in the last twenty years with nothing but a record of 323 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:02.599 fail right eleven in the Iraq War, the seat doesn't go very well, 324 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.160 the financial crash, the rise of this ideology that you're after. Whereas you 325 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:08.799 know, people are our age. We lived through the Reagan years in winning 326 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:14.240 the Cold War and restoring the economy and turning things around after Vietnam and the 327 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:18.559 horrible seventies, so you and I have actually known a great measure of success 328 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:22.839 and young people haven't. And so you can understand why. By the way, 329 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:29.119 I have some friends of mine who are very conservative parents tell me they're 330 00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:33.559 shocked at how radicalized their young sons are. Radicalized to the right, not 331 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.079 the left. Understands it's the opposite of the sixties, right, And yeah, 332 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:38.640 so this is I think worrying, And so what do you have to 333 00:23:38.680 --> 00:23:41.839 say about that? I think your book does have a lot to bear on 334 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.440 that. But this is actually great, Steve, and I'm glad you asked 335 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:47.680 about this, even though it is a little bit beyond this cope of this 336 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.599 book, because I think there's actually a lot that you can say about it. 337 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.960 First of all, I hadn't even like fully internalized it quite in that 338 00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.839 way, although I definitely hear a lot of the younger people I talked to 339 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:02.200 it. I do actually end up talking to a lot of younger people in 340 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:04.799 the conservative space, and they kind of lament for them. Kind of like 341 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:08.960 the nineties, but between eighty nine, when the Berlin Wall kind of falls 342 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:14.680 in two thousand and one, that was the Great American era where we're kind 343 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:18.240 of unchallenged, We're pre nine to eleven and this. But a lot of 344 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:22.000 these younger people have just grown up with this legacy of failure. So I 345 00:24:22.039 --> 00:24:25.519 do think that that's important to talk about. And I mean, and you 346 00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:29.119 are a sort of half generation up for me, but both of us. 347 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:33.279 I mean, I was an older teenager when kind of Morning in America was 348 00:24:33.319 --> 00:24:37.839 happening under Reagan, and so you know, I kind of grew up at 349 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.400 a time in which things felt kind of ascendant, and then I grew up 350 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:47.720 more as a young adult in this time up through two thousand and one where 351 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:51.480 we were the unipolar power and everything seemed to be going great. So I 352 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:55.599 do think that's some of it. And then on the radicalism bit, I 353 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:57.599 think this is right on. And I one of the first big interviews I 354 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:03.079 did on this book was with Charlie, and Charlie was who, of course 355 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:08.079 has founded the biggest and most important youth conservative organization out there, Turning Point 356 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:12.400 USA. He was talking to me about how when he he did this on 357 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:18.119 aras, I'm not sharing anything out of school, when he kind of goes 358 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.200 to his donors and talks about this type of issue that they're like, oh, 359 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:23.359 you know, you can't say that it might be racist, Whereas when 360 00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:27.200 he talks to young people on college campuses, particularly young white guys, they're 361 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:30.759 like, of course, this is our life, you know, this is 362 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.519 where we are, and they're I mean, I don't want to use the 363 00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:38.079 term radicalized, because I think that that has a slightly negative, you know, 364 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:42.160 connotation, obviously, but I think they they understand the situation is not 365 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.599 good for them, and they are unabashed about talking about it. Yeah. 366 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.599 So not to overly do the partisan angle on this, but that's your book 367 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.079 as that I love, and I have about Some of these quotes independent of 368 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.400 you, too, are from Joe Biden back in the seventies when he opposed 369 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:03.160 bussing, when he was a critic of the civil rights movement, when he 370 00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:07.440 called out anti white racism by with that phrase, right yeah. And then 371 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:11.039 we think in between that and now you had the famous sister Soldier moment of 372 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:15.640 Bill Clinton. Right. You know, there's an old quote I found once 373 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.880 of Clinton in eighty eight, when you know, he was trying to help 374 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:22.839 Michael Ducaccus win that election and frustrated du Caucus was such a technocratic nerd and 375 00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:26.319 wouldn't listen to him. And one of things Clinton said. The reporter in 376 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:30.640 eighty eight was says, I don't what did he say? He said, 377 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:34.960 we don't have to we don't have to oppose Jesse Jackson. We need to 378 00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:40.160 disagree with him. And of course that's what Clinton does four years later when 379 00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.440 in the famous Sister Soldier moment calling out her amazing rhetoric of you know, 380 00:26:44.480 --> 00:26:47.440 it's okay to kill whites, right, he did that in front of Jesse 381 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:52.200 Jackson. And if you're and that seems to be utterly gone now, Joe 382 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:56.200 Biden is totally down for the whole race mongering of the progressive left these days. 383 00:26:57.480 --> 00:26:59.960 I don't know, do I need to add to that? I mean, 384 00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:03.279 you wut on observations about this? No, I think that's totally right. 385 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.160 And it's hard to know. I mean, I'm not one of these 386 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:11.119 people who completely overdoes the meme of Joe Biden's senile, etc. I mean, 387 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:15.319 I think he's enough there to at least kind of know what's going on, 388 00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:18.160 although I don't think that he's in any functional way really running his White 389 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:25.720 House. But I think it's interesting in that if you just kind of view 390 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:30.039 Joe Biden as a cipher, empty suit who will say, whatever the Democratic 391 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:36.759 platitude is, it is fascinating to observe Joe Biden in the nineteen seventies that 392 00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:41.279 the media has tried to bury for political reasons for the most part, versus 393 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.720 Joe Biden today. And there really is. There is no resistance functionally to 394 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:51.200 this radical agenda within the Democrat Party. And as I point out, part 395 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:56.920 of the problem is, while the Democrats are flat out war on whites without 396 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.759 even any shame at pretty much every the area, the GOP, partially because 397 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.759 this is a difficult subject for a lot of people to talk about, is 398 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:11.880 at best usually kind of tepid defenders. And it's really only among the grassroots 399 00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.200 right that are kind of stiffening some spines. And we do we do have 400 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.240 some good congressmen who will kind of raise these issues, but there's still a 401 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:21.519 lot of nervousness. And I think, look, this is going to go 402 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:25.119 away because reality is going to demand that it goes away. That's what I 403 00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:30.160 haven't discovered any grand new theories here. It's just the time is right to 404 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.839 write this book and talk about it because reality is it gets a boat, 405 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.960 and that's what's happening. Reality. It's a boat. Yeah, that's an 406 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:40.960 updated version of the famous Herb steinleine. I know, you know, which 407 00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:45.160 if something can't go on forever, it won't. And as this isn't okay, 408 00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.359 it isn't working for the for the left, but well, okay, 409 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.319 they keep it any more radical as you note that, you know, demands 410 00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:56.200 from reparations that are completely preposterous, like San Francisco. I quote you on 411 00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.720 reparations in the book, Steve so I missed that. I've skimmed through two 412 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.799 fast talk about it was like I quote you talking about how it was like 413 00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:10.319 a recipe for all out racial conflict or something you have. It was even 414 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:12.200 darker than that. I was like, well that's probably right. I mean, 415 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:15.519 yeah, well I won't chase after that rabbit hole too much right now. 416 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:21.799 One more thing about sort of white liberal guilt and who the real racists 417 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:25.119 are I mean again, Zach Goldberg and a few other people have pointed out 418 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:30.559 that it's actually liberals who believe the most negative stereotypes about minorities. And one 419 00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:36.440 there was one study that skimed your book. I haven't read it every page 420 00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:41.000 carefully. There was that study by actually a black woman at Yale Business school 421 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:47.880 four or five years ago that analyzed the rhetoric of speeches by liberal democratic politicians 422 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.079 and noticed that they talked down to minorities. Maybe they may not even realize 423 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:56.640 they're doing this, right, But the proof of this was yeah, sorry, 424 00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.160 you think they do? Or you know, I agree, I actually 425 00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:02.480 think they don't. I think dare I say it? Not a figure I'm 426 00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:07.839 particularly fond of, but this is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Yes, 427 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:10.680 yeah, I will. You see that. You know, well, 428 00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:12.960 you saw a great example of this just a couple of weeks ago when Governor 429 00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:17.359 Hokel of New York said, gosh, you know, blacks and Harlem don't 430 00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.559 even know the word computer, right, I mean seriously, I mean, 431 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:23.839 oh, I misspoke, you know, And no you didn't. You know 432 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.880 that's what you really think, right, I mean, it's unbelievable, and 433 00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:32.880 you know that's something you can't get them to acknowledge. Yeah, all right, 434 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:34.559 let's talk about a couple of things down in the weeds that I know 435 00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.079 Heather McDonald's starting to write about, and you mentioned a lot in your book. 436 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:41.960 You tell a story, the great story of the Baki case from the 437 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:47.519 late seventies of Alan Baki, you know, who was one at the Supreme 438 00:30:47.559 --> 00:30:52.200 Court to be and struck down explicit racial quotas that you see Davis Medical School. 439 00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:57.240 Uh. And of course that's the decision that gave us diversity. For 440 00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:03.279 listeners who don't know the background of the case, Justice Palell was the swing 441 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.480 vote in a five to four decision. He said, no, you can't 442 00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:11.480 have fixed racial quotas, but you can allow diversity as a factor in admitting 443 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:17.440 a class. And they also strangely justified it on First Amendment grounds. Well, 444 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.200 this is really a matter of academic freedom. Universities have an interest in 445 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:26.319 wanting to compose their class to represent the from that we began the great diversity 446 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.559 racket. And by the way, this shows you, I'm coming to a 447 00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.920 very pointed question for you in a moment about this. It reminds me a 448 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.759 little bit in a different realm of the Chevron case, which, you know, 449 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.039 the case that the conservative legal movements now working to overturn. I always 450 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:45.599 remind people that that's the case the Reagan administration won in nineteen eighty four, 451 00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.720 and they thought that this was the grounds of sensible bureaucratic reform, and it 452 00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:53.839 turned out to be the opposite. Likewise, with Baki, what looked like 453 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:59.839 an important step to returning to a sensible understanding of civil rights turned out to 454 00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:06.119 be disaster in the cornerstone of the diversity racket. So we'll get into disparate 455 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:09.440 impact more in a moment in the Griggs decision. But here's my question. 456 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.920 Jeremy, and I've raised this a few times with people, and our mutual 457 00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:17.680 friend Gail Harriet's horrified when I do it. But I'm starting to say maybe 458 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:23.680 the Baky case was incorrectly decided. I don't mean that on principle, although 459 00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:29.079 there is no principle the Pale's swing opinion. But my point is, what 460 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:31.000 if the Supreme Court had gone with the liberals and said, you know what, 461 00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:37.119 racial fixed explicit racial quotas are fine. I think the whole thing would 462 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:39.359 have eventually collapsed of its own weight if you had done that, because that 463 00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:44.880 would have been unpopular and being would have set all the minority groups at war 464 00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:49.079 with one another for their share of the pie. Is that a completely crazy 465 00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.599 idea or what do you think? It's not completely crazy, it's kind of 466 00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:54.559 a fun and provocative idea. I don't know, right, I mean at 467 00:32:54.599 --> 00:33:01.960 some level. So much of this anti white kind of regime depends, as 468 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.640 power often does, on being hidden to a degree, and so bring it 469 00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:10.200 out when you bring out the racism and the discrimination so explicitly arguably. I 470 00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:14.599 mean, Ulysses S. Grant actually had a great quote about this about laws. 471 00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:17.839 He sort of said, the best thing you can do. I'm going 472 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.319 to mangle the quote, but roughly, you know, for some obnoxious law 473 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:27.079 is it's really stringent and effective execution. You know that I'll kind of teach 474 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:29.759 everybody, well, this is really bad. We don't want to do that. 475 00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:31.279 So I think maybe that would have been the case. It's sort of 476 00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:35.839 an interesting thing, as you point out in Palell's opinion, without getting too 477 00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.960 much into the weeds, so much of the controlling thing that the regime put 478 00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:45.079 here was literally in a footnote he had. It's not even in the main 479 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:50.000 part of the opinion at all. And the affirmative action case, the Baki 480 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.319 case you cite, I mean, it was a real mass You had nine 481 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:58.400 justices and six separate opinions and Baki, who's eventually admitted, but they don't 482 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:01.039 totally strike down the racial preference. As I kind of recount in the book, 483 00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:06.200 the kind of very memorable story that not as many people know about the 484 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:09.280 African American student who was kind of always held up as the great example of 485 00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:14.920 the guy who replaced Baki, and Ted Kennedy was lionizing him on the floor 486 00:34:14.920 --> 00:34:17.519 of the Senate, and the New York Times did a huge puff piece profile 487 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:21.639 on him in the magazine that went on for ten pages. This guy was 488 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.800 working in the inner City. He ended up killing a patient and abandoning other 489 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:30.159 patients and losing his medical license and eventually kind of winds up shot dead by 490 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:36.280 the side of the road and mysterious circumstances. And so meanwhile Baki goes on 491 00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:38.440 to have a very successful career as best I can tell, at the Mayo 492 00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:45.599 Clinic, a very prestigious medical institution. And so in many ways, I 493 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.480 would say, yes, this is the great example of affirmative action, as 494 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:52.559 take Kennedy said at the time, but not in the way that he meant 495 00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:55.840 it. Yeah, I mean, I mean one sentence summary, which I 496 00:34:55.880 --> 00:35:00.519 should have done, is what Baki said was you can have quotas as long 497 00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:04.880 as you don't call them quotas, right, And you know, one thing 498 00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:07.599 that I think is in one of my Reagan books. Maybe I cut it 499 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.960 out, but I do. I did follow in nineteen eighty four a big 500 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:16.440 fight at the Democratic platform meetings in San Francisco because Jesse Jackson was insisting the 501 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:22.760 Democrats embrace racial quotas for employment and everything else, and the party resisted it 502 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.559 because they knew that that word is simply anathema. And that's when they adopted 503 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:31.039 goals and timetables instead. Right. That became the euphemism for it. Right, 504 00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:37.840 Okay. A lot of this goes back to the This is a case 505 00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.920 of people know even less than the Baky case and the Griggs case from Griggs 506 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.079 versus Duke Power in what nineteen seventy seventy one, seventy one? Yeah, 507 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:49.880 and this is what gave us the disparate impact treatment. You have a very 508 00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:52.719 good account of this, So why don't you summarize it briefly for listeners? 509 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:57.079 Yeah, So, Gregs versus Duke Power is one of the most important Supreme 510 00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:00.880 Court cases. And in fact, when the American Conservative did a symposium of 511 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:06.119 a number of writers on what's one Supreme Court decision would you overturn? And 512 00:36:06.599 --> 00:36:09.679 I picked this one and wrote about it. So Griggs gives us and our 513 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:14.960 mutual friend Gail Harriet has actually written a good piece on this, and she's 514 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:17.000 a member of the US Commission on Civil Rights and a political independent. She 515 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:22.519 wrote a Law Review article about disparate impact doctrine. The title of which I 516 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:30.760 cited my book is roughly disparate impact makes virtually everything presumptively illegal. And I 517 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:34.360 think that's basically accurate. I mean, with another way of saying, is 518 00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:38.599 it just gives complete power to the bureaucrats to declare anything racist and illegal that 519 00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:44.599 they would like to. So what Gregs versus Duke Power just did briefly is 520 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:50.119 it's in this nineteen seventy one case, is there is a an employment qualification 521 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:57.599 test. Whites and blacks past that test at very different rates. There is 522 00:36:57.800 --> 00:37:02.599 no even allegation that this was done with a attempt to discriminate. But the 523 00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:07.480 Supreme Court rules in this Griggs case in nineteen seventy one that even if there 524 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:13.280 is no intent to discriminate, if you have kind of a result of an 525 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:17.159 employment test or anything like that that has a disparate impact. In other words, 526 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:23.360 the end result varies significantly from the kind of overall population sizes, then 527 00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:28.440 it's presumptively considered a league. Another there are these various hoops that you can 528 00:37:28.519 --> 00:37:31.360 jump through to sort of show that they were business necessities, et cetera. 529 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:37.239 But most companies just decide, hey, we're not going to play in that, 530 00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:39.960 and so they just do a bunch of things to effectively put in quotas. 531 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:44.440 Now, even for the liberal Supreme Court at the time, this ended 532 00:37:44.519 --> 00:37:46.519 up being too radical a decision. And what a lot of people don't know 533 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:51.880 is that in nineteen eighty nine, in a case called words Code versus Antonio, 534 00:37:52.280 --> 00:37:53.840 they actually walk back a lot of this decision. I mean, very 535 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:59.920 unusual for a Supreme Court that soon after to effectively break their own presit. 536 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:07.360 But at that point the civil rights advocates freak out the Bush Senior Civil Rights 537 00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:13.960 Department. They simply lacked the stomach to have the fight that they should have 538 00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:16.159 had and told those guys to go pound sand. And so as a result, 539 00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:22.599 we end up codifying effectively grigs into a civil rights law in nineteen ninety 540 00:38:22.639 --> 00:38:29.159 one that George HW. Bush signs. And there's a lot bunch of really 541 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:35.239 interesting inside baseball that have been written in individual accounts of conservatives in the civil 542 00:38:35.320 --> 00:38:38.480 rights bureaucracy at the time, political appointees who knew how bad that this was 543 00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:43.280 going to be, but simply the political leadership lacked the courage to do anything 544 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.880 about it. Yeah. No, that was a shameful episode. I mean, 545 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:52.159 I I remember the time following all that. And one just one aspect 546 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:54.480 of it I remember was, you know, testing, and there used to 547 00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:59.079 be a practice which I think was allowed. They sup mostly banned. They 548 00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:02.039 really allowed it anorming, which meant, you know, if someone got ninety 549 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:07.079 percent on a you know, one hundred point scale of a test, okay, 550 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:13.679 ninety percent, but if minorities were in the ninetieth percentile, Let's say 551 00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.360 minority got seventy five percent, but that put them in the ninetieth percentile among 552 00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:22.760 their minority group. They call that ninetieth percentile overall. So other words, 553 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:25.880 you're calling unequal test results equal for employment purposes. And really, I mean, 554 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.039 we're gonna do this level of dishonesty, and yeah, the Bush administration 555 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:31.880 as in so many other areas well. Okay, I don't need to finish 556 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:37.199 that sentence, but uh well, all right, so oh, one more 557 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:42.719 thing and then we'll get some remedies. You you embrace I'm going to miss 558 00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:49.000 lead listeners for a minute. You embrace net zerodormally if that means carbon emissions 559 00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.679 and climate change and energy. But you're applying it to a different realm, 560 00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:54.519 and which I think is brilliant and I like it. So tell people what 561 00:39:54.639 --> 00:40:00.679 net zero you will you will embrace. So net zero means deat zero immigration 562 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:04.320 for a significant period of time, and that means for every immigrant we're bringing 563 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.760 in, we're deporting at least one. And of course, I mean you 564 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.039 start out with we just need to deport every person who's here illegally, and 565 00:40:10.119 --> 00:40:14.639 I think not to call up the ghost of Mitt Romney, but of course 566 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.480 a fair number of this can be self deporting at a certain point when you 567 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:22.760 actually show you're serious about enforcing your law. And of course, are we 568 00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.119 ever going to get every single illegal person who's an illegal immigrant who's here. 569 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:30.000 No, of course we're not. But even if we can get to like 570 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:34.800 eighty or ninety percent, it will send a real message to people. And 571 00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:37.400 if we combine that with real border enforcement, I think we'd see a big 572 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.119 change in where we are. But I kind of argue that for any sort 573 00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:47.280 of national unity for a new American identity, for what scholars would call an 574 00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:54.639 ethnogenesis, or as Eric Kaufman, a Canadian scholar, puts it in another 575 00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:58.559 book that he's written that I cite a few times, called white shifting. 576 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:04.000 But if you're going to have this kind of new American identity form kind of 577 00:41:04.039 --> 00:41:08.199 it's it's necessary that we get control of our border, stop having the levels 578 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:12.440 of mass immigration that we have. And then in the same way that we 579 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.440 did that, the fifties kind of became in certain ways the kind of almost 580 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:21.800 cliche Heyday of Americanism. I don't think that's a coincidence that you have that 581 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:24.880 at the tail end of a time in which we've had almost no immigration or 582 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.400 very little immigration, and a tremendous time, particularly in World War Two, 583 00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:34.519 where everybody's thrown together from these different backgrounds, a chance to cohere a new 584 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:39.079 American identity. And I think we really need to do something like that now, 585 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:43.559 to cohere a new American identity. Yeah, I mean, you you 586 00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:46.039 make the point that other people made before, But I think you that I 587 00:41:46.079 --> 00:41:51.280 haven't heard a lot lately, which is what our foreign born population is now 588 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:55.039 something like forty five million which is a sort of high proportion of our total 589 00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:59.519 population. Yeah, and you know it's pretty high, and the around the 590 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:02.480 you know, the nineteen twenties when we decided to slow down immigration because that's 591 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:06.719 a large number of people too. You know, assimilate into your country. 592 00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:07.840 Assimilate. It's supposed to be a word you don't use, but I think 593 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.119 it's coming back into fashion. And so you know, people have been saying 594 00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:16.119 for a while now we need some time to assimilate people and have a successful 595 00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:20.960 multi racial country. You know, you said all that, And do you 596 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:22.440 mention your book. You know, I may have seen this somewhere else in 597 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.880 the last few days. As you know, the joke is you mentioned the 598 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:30.599 nineteen fifties and and coming out of the war experience about how this was working 599 00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:34.400 well. And by the way, as you know, black progress in particular 600 00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:38.199 was very strong the nineteen fifties relative to weights, right, income growth was 601 00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:43.880 higher, home ownership rates were higher. It you know it this is not 602 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.880 a new thought, but it arguably stops with the expansion of the welfare state 603 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:50.639 in the sixties. And yeah, I mean that is a true hate fact. 604 00:42:50.760 --> 00:42:52.599 By the way, that you've just cited that very few people are aware 605 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:58.679 of outside of nerdy policy communities. Right that you get the huge progress in 606 00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:02.599 the African American community, largely before the civil rights movement really takes off, 607 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.320 and our reversal and immigration it opened our borders up right, right of course, 608 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:09.400 so those two go together. The joke I've heard is that, you 609 00:43:09.400 --> 00:43:14.320 know, suggestive joke is that conservatives want to live in the nineteen fifties and 610 00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.280 liberals want to work in the nineteen fifties. Right, Yeah, there is 611 00:43:19.639 --> 00:43:22.199 something to all that, and we could figure that out. We you know, 612 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.840 Paul Krugman has this economic nostalgia for the fifties. It's kind of funny, 613 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:30.360 but yeah, okay, let's go. You have several remedies in the 614 00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:32.039 back, but we've already mentioned a couple of them. But you know, 615 00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:37.199 one is find some way to challenge or roll back desparate impact, because that's 616 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:43.440 at the root of so many things. Second, what else we already mentioned, 617 00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.960 Create a preference cascade that liberates more and more people, talk plainly and 618 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:52.239 openly about these issues, and go ahead, you visit civil rights laws pretty 619 00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:55.719 fundamentally. I mean that again, I'm actually not quite as provocative in my 620 00:43:55.840 --> 00:44:04.239 take on this as implicitly my colleague Christopher Caldwell, is I mean, Christoph 621 00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:06.559 or whatever. I mean. He's a really clever writer, so he doesn't 622 00:44:06.599 --> 00:44:09.920 always show you all of his cards, but effectively I think he's you know, 623 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:14.000 would I don't think it would be unfair to say that he thinks the 624 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:17.480 entire regime was a mistake, whereas I'm a little more historically generous and that 625 00:44:17.559 --> 00:44:21.599 I think, look, I mean, it was responding to very real problems 626 00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:23.800 that we had in society. It was a blunt instrument. I think it 627 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:30.880 was two blunted instrument arguably. But I don't see a grand need to kind 628 00:44:30.880 --> 00:44:34.559 of like re litigate the wisdom of the sixty four Civil Rights Act. I 629 00:44:34.559 --> 00:44:37.360 think the right thing to do is simply to say, look, we're as 630 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:40.360 far away from that sixty years on as they were from the right, brothers. 631 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.599 Our problems are not like black people not being served at lunch counters. 632 00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:49.920 It's white people being discriminated against employment, et cetera, et cetera. So 633 00:44:49.960 --> 00:44:54.039 we need to fundamentally reform our civil rights laws, restore freedom of association, 634 00:44:54.239 --> 00:45:00.920 and address the actual problems that really exist rather than kind of those exist in 635 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:05.199 the liberal fantasy world, which is essentially what our current civil rights regime tends 636 00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:08.679 to to kind of focus on. Yeah, you emphasize reviving the rhetoric of 637 00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:15.199 common citizenship instead of you separate baluklanized groups. Right by the way, you 638 00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:17.519 know, the person you mentioned Trump, the person who actually does that a 639 00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:22.880 lot or most is Trump. Whereas I remember, you know, Trump's first 640 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:24.840 inaugural address, which you know got panned because of you know, the air 641 00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:29.480 of American carnage is going to end or whatever. But but what people don't 642 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:31.920 probably didn't pay attention to this. You know, he was introduced by Chuck 643 00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.880 Schumer, who was as happens, you always have a senator who's chair of 644 00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:40.000 the inauguration committee, and his his introduction of Trump or introduction of the proceedings, 645 00:45:40.039 --> 00:45:44.400 I forget exactly how it works. He didn't introduce Trump, but he 646 00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:47.119 all he did was emphasize different minority groups calling them out one by one, 647 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:51.480 right, I mean that's in the DNA now, people of sort of the 648 00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:54.480 left. A couple others you have here that are starting to happen. I 649 00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.840 mean, you know, you finished this book some months ago, of course, 650 00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:00.760 but law Fair against the anti war establishment and you mentioned some of the 651 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:07.480 settlements that have happened for the discrimination, like the Starbucks manager and Philadelphia teachers 652 00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:09.920 and some corporations. And now I think we're going to see some universities get 653 00:46:10.000 --> 00:46:15.920 nick card on the tolerance or anti semitism on campus. Yeah, and then 654 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:20.239 you say eliminate DEI bureaucracies, Well, they seem to be falling about one 655 00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:22.880 a day right now, right right, Although the key will be whether they 656 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:29.079 are really following or not right or whether they're just being reconstituted under other names. 657 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:30.920 And I think the answer there is going to be it's a mixed bag, 658 00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:35.360 right, you know, it'll depend on the institution, It'll depends on 659 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:40.320 the state, the kind of blackpill to use the term of the younger kids 660 00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:45.320 in looking at a lot of this is California has outlawed affirmative action twice now, 661 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:50.320 including in nineteen in twenty twenty when it went sixty three percent for Biden. 662 00:46:50.800 --> 00:46:55.239 But if you actually look at the college admissions at the UC's right now, 663 00:46:55.960 --> 00:46:59.880 if you swit really hard, you can maybe find where they're in. 664 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.000 We're seeing it a little bit, but they've largely figured out ways to just 665 00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:08.360 get around it and so I worry without a real discussion and real popular will 666 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:13.599 or real elite will, because I mean the vote show that there's actually popular 667 00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:19.639 will, we're just going to continue new types of discrimination or dei under different 668 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:24.639 names and guys' is yeah, right, Okay, last question is a fluffy, 669 00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:30.719 frothy one. How many death threats have you gotten? You know, 670 00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:35.280 that's actually been the big surprise, especially because the book has gotten quite a 671 00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:40.519 bit of attention, is and because I've been harassed before, but as of 672 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.599 now, the left has not, you know, kind of gone after me 673 00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:46.559 and my family and quite the way I would have expected. And I think 674 00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:50.239 it's just a matter of time. In fact, I've seen some bad actors 675 00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:52.400 start to follow me on Twitter, and usually if I see that, I 676 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:55.760 just block them, and not that they can't get there anyway, but at 677 00:47:55.840 --> 00:48:00.719 least it adds another impediment. But I think if if this book continues to 678 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:05.599 grow in the way that I'm seeing and really begins to have a big effect 679 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.559 on the debate, I have no doubt that the left will be out with 680 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:15.639 their knives, hopefully only proverbially and not literally sharpened to well you know, 681 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:22.440 it could be I mean, I mean Ignoring their critics is a long time 682 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:24.920 tactic of the left, and it could be that some of them may think, 683 00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:28.639 wait a minute, don't we don't want to acknowledge this book exists because 684 00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:31.440 we'll call more attention to it, which is actually ironically a hopeful sign in 685 00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:35.440 a certain way. Right, They can't you know, you had, I 686 00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:37.760 mean, I think back to the Bell Curve thirty years ago now, and 687 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:44.400 you had long attempts at detailed refutation of distorted claims of what the book actually 688 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:45.719 said. But never mind that. The point is is, you know, 689 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:50.840 serious people from the left attempted to take it on, and now I think 690 00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:54.800 there's there's just look the arguments that you present, and you know, Heather 691 00:48:54.920 --> 00:49:01.000 and others of our few friends in this area are just simply so overwhelming that 692 00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:05.559 it yeah, you know, the only thing they can do is trying to 693 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:07.119 ignore it. So yeah, well, and I think the good the good 694 00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:10.679 news there, though, is that if we can get our side to really 695 00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:15.880 begin speaking about it in more of a unanimous voice, it becomes I don't 696 00:49:15.880 --> 00:49:19.639 want to say impossible, because the left is amazing at just ignoring the things 697 00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:22.719 he doesn't want to talk about, but it becomes more and more difficult, 698 00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.440 particularly if we're introducing it to Congress. And I have, in fact had 699 00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:29.199 people without kind of naming names. First of all, I have multiple Congressmen 700 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:31.880 I know who are reading this book, so that's great. Secondly, I've 701 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:37.960 had some very senior staffers say, hey, let's go do something. Let's 702 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:43.199 do a DC symposium on the Hill around this book and civil rights slot some 703 00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:45.840 other things. And so I do think that at least on the elite kind 704 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:50.679 of parts of the right, people are paying attention. And that's great. 705 00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:53.079 Oh good, well that that, Jeremy is a great note on wish to 706 00:49:53.119 --> 00:49:57.559 end and say congratulations on the unprotected class. This is an important book. 707 00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:25.639 Thanks so much, Steve. It's a pleasure to be on Ricochet. Join 708 00:50:25.719 --> 00:50:28.559 the conversation. H