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Love Talk Radio. Welcome to Open
Minds Radio with your host ale Of Hondro

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Rojash. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, it is Alejandro pi Rojas and we

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have a great show today. We've
have another in studio guest, which is

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always fun because then I'm not as
lonely in here, and we just luckily

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have some great researchers and people out
here in Phoenix, so we have enough

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people to come out here. Today. We have Jim Delo Toso and of

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course people in the area are definitely
going to know that name, and if

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you've watched UFO documentaries then I'm sure
you're going to know as well, because

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he's in a lot of them.
Does a lot of photo analysis. Phoenix

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Lights of course, with a big
deal out here and around the world,

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and Jim was pretty much the lead
photo and analyst there. You saw him

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on almost every Phoenix Lights story.
So we'll talk about that. Some people

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don't know that he looked into the
Billy Meyers pictures as well, so we'll

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talk a lot about all of that, and it's going to be a lot

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of fun. But let's let's get
into the news so we can get to

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some of that cool stuff in the
news this week without a lot of interesting

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things. One of them Russia Today, is a website that covers lots of

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Russian news, and there's some people
who videotaped a large pyramid UFO over Kremlin,

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so people are still looking into this. The police are interesting enough in

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the area. Didn't have any comments, but Russia Today you can see a

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couple stories, and of course all
of these news stories are linked at openminds

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dot tv right there on the front
page under our daily UFO headlines, and

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you'll be able to watch those videos. So very cool. And I know

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there's a couple more videos that showed
up on YouTube today that are kind of

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the full length of that video,
and we'll be getting a hold of us

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and posting those as soon as possible, probably by the end of the day

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or in the morning as well.
So that was a really cool one.

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Also, as usual, lots of
news in the UK. It's actually slowed

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down a little bit that he did
have, you know, half a dozen

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stories almost every day about UFOs in
the UK for a while there when the

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mod was releasing some of their files. It slowed down a little bit.

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But a gentleman by the name of
Richard Hall, who's a researcher out there.

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His website is richplanet dot net.
He did a couple cool things this

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week. First of all, David
Cameron, it's the head of the Conservative

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Party out there. He went to
one of his events and he asked them

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about UFOs and luckily this was all
recorded, recorded and he was able to

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put this on his website. And
David Cameron kind of made a joke.

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You know, everybody's got to have
their pat UFO joke, and he's got

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to say, well, I would
think the other party is from a different

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planet if I didn't know any better, so, you know, the typical

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politician joke. But then he apologized
for joking around and says, you know,

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I take everything serious and I'm all
for openness and transparency in government.

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So if I found anything out,
I'd let the people know, so kind

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of another pat answer. But it's
just cool. It's always exciting when people

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are brave enough to ask, because
the more this happens, I think it

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shows that, you know, this
really is on people's minds. People are

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very interested in what's going on.
We talked about last week with Jeff Peckman

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starting his ballot Initiative in Denver and
how some of those stories had pools which

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showed that people are really in favor
of finding out more about UF and extra

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terrestrials. So another thing that rich
Richard Hall did is a documentary called Hidden

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Truth, and it's on crop circles. And in this documentary he's pretty much

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concluding that he thinks that m I
five, which is pretty much the British

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Intelligence Agency. In fact am I
extends for military intelligence. The MI five

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is really who, you know,
James Bond would have worked for if he

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was a real dude. But they, he has concluded, had had some

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involvement with the faking of crop circles. We know there are a lot of

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people who make crop circles for artistic
reasons and for fun, and there's a

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website out there crop circle Makers,
and they're pretty much the main crop circle

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makers, at least human wise,
the known crop circles that we know are

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being made by humans. And they
have a website and they're very active,

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and he kind of talks about their
funding, how they're very well funded and

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they have all these anonymous sources for
their funding, so some interesting conclusions.

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He also interviews Colin Andrews on that
who's a famous crop circle researcher out there.

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And Colin Andrews actually has a story
and kind of in appreciation for this

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documentary on his website, he released
the name of a CIA agent he's talked

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about in the past, and this
CIA agent approached him and tried to recruit

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him. Essentially almost said you're recruited, you're working for us now, and

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Colin said, I don't think so, mich Kel. I always do the

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British accents for the British people,
but thank you. But Colin Andrews named

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finally for the first time, this
CIA agent and he said his name was

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Sandy Reid r E I D.
So we'll all have to look into this

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character and find out about his past. So those are some of the interesting

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stories in the UK. One more
that came out was in The Sun,

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that's the big tabloid. They're also
a paper that's taken seriously, even though

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they have like the page five girls, which are the bikini girls and bikinis

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are optional. Maxwell's paper. No, I don't know who has the paper,

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but it's very big and it is, you know, one of the

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biggest papers out there. Even though
it is tabloid and some of the serious

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news stories are broken there, but
they have amazing UFO pictures of two thousand

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and nine up there, so you
can go check that out. Remember this

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is all also on Openminds dot tv, so that's the UK. Moving back

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to the States, there's been some
articles about some information some gentleman has sent

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out there, and one of the
stories is called why aren't you building your

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own UFO yet? And that's on
I own nine to site. You might

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know IO nine. They're kind of
a techie underground type of website, so

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if you're into technical stuff and the
latest and greatest gadgets and sci fi,

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you'll see that kind of stuff there. But they posted a story about this

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guy who sent out a press release
and he's trying to get some money from

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Australia actually also but he lists he's
got thousands of pages on his website and

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you can go look at this stuff
for free, and it shows all of

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the different patents going back to the
fifties that introduces or has technology relates to

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technology similar to what people are seeing
when they describe UFOs. So that's some

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interesting information. In fact, he's
pretty much saying with the information on the

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website. Here you can build your
own UFO, and there's several different types.

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It's not just kind of electromagnetism,
but it's several different ways that people

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are tapping into these. He's not
calling it anti gravity, but ways to

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limit the gravity that make the devices
fly. So some of the patents he

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talks about our worst technologies that came
from Nikola Tesla and the brown b filled

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effect you might be familiar with.
So you'll have to check this out,

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especially if you're a tech type person. That's really interesting. If you do

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build your own UFO, please get
a hold of us here at open Minds

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and we'll give your address. You
can fly on over. We'll make a

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space for you in our parking lot
and we'd love to see it. Maybe

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we'll even pay you to put an
open mind flows go on the side of

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it flying around downtown. So that's
some cool news. This is really weird

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too. A few stories on UFO's
landing and extraterrestrials coming out of them.

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In fact, the UFO examiner who
writes about Moofon talked about a couple of

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moove on reports that they got from
Texas and both of these reports were of

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UFOs landing and creatures coming out of
these uf It's our favorite kind creatures.

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Yeah sure, yeah, that's much
more exciting. I'm really bored with just

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the you know, the UFOs flying
around. You know, people have sightings.

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That's great, even you know,
I want to see one up close.

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I want to have someone fly one
over that I can ride and we

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can put our logo on. Or
I want to see one land with a

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strange creatures that come out so we
could say hi. And I don't want

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the abduction type scenario to happen,
you know, I no thanks some prog

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or anything, but I'm happy to
talk with them. But another one of

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these cases was posted by the People
magazine Daily and they talked about a UFO

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landing in Barstow, California. So
maybe we're at the next stage where they're

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going to start landing and saying hi, and we can invite them over for

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dinner. Hopefully they were. I
don't know. I was reading on some

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website that they assumed that they jetsted
blood plasma through their skin. I don't

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think that's the case. That would
be awful, but I hope they're vegetarians.

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I know that this guy right here, yes, this little creature we

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have that it's an iargan. I've
talked about it before one of Wendell Stevens'

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cases, and that they said they
were vegetarians. Good for them. Yeah,

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I think it's the right way to
go. All right. So there's

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our news for the week. Ladies
and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us

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for that. Go to Open Minds
to that TV and on the front page

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you'll see more about that. I
should cover at least a couple of our

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cool stories we've posted here too,
and that would be from Philip Mantle.

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He wrote us a story of UK
Royal Marines who had a sighting in nineteen

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seventy one and they reported it.
In fact, the guy who wrote it

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talked about his boss essentially having him
collect all the photos and reports on it

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and they were sent into the Home
Office or wherever the UK military send that

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stuff. But you know, the
MOD has been releasing UFO files and these

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haven't shown up in those files.
So why not If the UK government is

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truly releasing everything they know about UFO, why aren't they releasing this information?

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In fact, Nick Pope, we
did the story last week about how the

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UK the mod said, don't call
us anymore if you have a UFO siding.

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We don't want to hear it.
We're closing down our hotlines. So

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we got a response from Nick Pope
and asked him what he thought, and

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he said, well, even though
officially maybe they're not collecting reports, you

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know, someone's got to be collecting
them, maybe it's not an official capacity.

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So that's the newest story we've got
out. And if you've been reading

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the alien autopsy stories that Marizio has
been putting out, and we're going to

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have number three posted by the end
of the day. This one is a

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couple of corners in Italy who actually
I think they worked for the Vatican or

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with them. I mean, they're
very well known corners and they watched the

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video with Mauricio and they had some
comments to make until we're posting all of

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their comments. And this has been
a highly controversial, of course case an

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issue, and you, my guests
for today, Jim, are no stranger

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to highly controversial cases. Out of
you, that's right. I wear my

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controversial suits whenever possible. Yep,
there you are. Oh, so let's

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get into it. Thanks for joining
us. Here today, happy to be

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here, thank you. And I
wanted to start off with just kind of

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going back to where you were in
life when you started looking into UFOs and

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why you decided to tackle that.
That was in the seventies and I was

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in the business of audio and video. I had a company that rented measurement

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equipment, signal processing equipment, solo
scopes, real time analyzers, and had

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that for a couple of years in
the mid seventies, and then I started

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one of the country's leading rock and
roll touring companies, Sound and Lights trucks,

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touring around doing that, but you
don't tour in the winter, and

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we were doing some pretty well known
bands Three Dog Night, Moody Blues,

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and many others, and you don't
tour in the winter. You look for

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other things to do. And with
the equipment that we had that included generators

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in that measurement equipment and lighting equipment. We worked in the film industry in

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Arizona became our winter headquarters because it
was a winter headquarters for b movies.

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So in the winter of eineteen seventy
eight, I met Socrates ballas he was

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producing a movie on the shroud of
Turin and it is the one that's out

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that's narrated by Richard Burton. And
when they were in pre production, they

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were looking for someone who could make
some interface equipment so that the scientific iridium

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equipment could convert those images and scientific
measurements to film. We're working on that

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project that winter, and Socrates Ballas
introduced us to another filmmaker named John Stephanelli.

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John Stephanelli was working with APRO in
Tucson to develop a method for analyzing

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pictures. So John Stefanelli introduced us
to Jim Lorenzen and Wendell Stevens to see

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if because of our approach in the
way that we have worked on his project,

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that perhaps we would develop a method
for appro on analysis of UFO pictures.

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And I agreed to do that since
it would take about a year,

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I said to find out the processes, the equipment, the manufacturers, the

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software, the techniques that would be
a repeatable method to do that an appro

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Just so people know, it was
the association of I don't know, aerial

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phenomena Research Organizations. Yes, and
at that time it was a worldwide organization

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with representatives from most every country in
the world. Then it was an academic

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organization what Nightcap, APRO and KUKO
someone started by Heinech. We're pretty much

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the big ones to begin with,
Yes, before they all kind of faded

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out and move one became the foretfront. Yes. I traveled with Wendell Stevens

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occasionally that year to go to pig
image processing trade shows and the goal was

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to find the equipment manufacturers, find
out from the manufacturers who owned their equipment

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that we could go to as service
providers in order to determine a repeatable method,

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create a method, and what are
the issues to analyze pictures of unknown

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objects? What's their size, how
far away from the camera are they?

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Have they been superimposed? Are they
a scale model? And all the issues

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that would be related to that.
And I published a paper on that,

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a white paper on that process in
nineteen seventy nine at the annual APRO conference

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that year. Subsequently, I was
asked if we would analyze forty pictures out

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of apro's collection, which included the
billion Meyer pictures. What was the feeling

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of the APRO people back then about
the million Myer photos. They had no

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position on it. It was,
you know, no position that I could

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interpret my sense of it was that
they had included some known models in the

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batch of forty in order to determine
the success of the testing process, and

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at that time the process was a
sequence of different labs to go to.

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There wasn't a place other than ground
saucer Watch that tested UFO pictures. And

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the factground saucer Watch went to a
particular manufacturer and did it there. We

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went to that facility also, and
my goal was to develop a repeatable process

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and be done with it. But
for the two years that I was supervising

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that process, the labs all signed
and we had them sign non disclosure agreements,

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which means we won't talk about the
fact that we're coming here, and

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you won't talk about the fact that
you even know us. So how did

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you feel about getting involved with all
of this at this point? Well,

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you know, I had two hats
that I wore. One was the rock

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and roll business, and which is
a business. It's a lot of fun,

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but it is a business. And
the other was my scientific measurement business,

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which was a precise and confidential business. So the combination of the two,

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I felt like the Blue his brothers
on a mission from God to Uh

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to do some private analysis. So
it was it was so you weren't apposed

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to it. I wasn't opposed to
it, but it was pro bono.

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There was no one to pay me
to do it, nor did I ever

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ask for anyone to pay me to
do it. And some of the cases

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were very costly once I got involved
with it, with money out of pocket,

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which a lot of people wouldn't know. You know how much it really

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cost to send a few people running
around doing things, but it would be

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tens of thousands of dollars. Fortunately
I had cash flow from from the music

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business in order to do that.
Yes, it's interesting too because Marizio was

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a rock and roll writer to begin
with Andy Talbot, who I had on

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it was very scientific minded. Now
you still work as a rock and roll

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producer. So well, that's it. From rock and roll, the UF

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those and back right, and the
business continued successfully for many years, and

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we added other divisions. We added
a computer graphics and Animation Service Bureau in

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the late eighties and we set up
shop inside of Arizona State University at the

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Computer Institute, which I was one
of the founders of. So out there

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in the real world, our work
was very well known, was given the

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high levels of scientific credibility. Meanwhile, over in the UFO community, we

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were the target for hand grenades.
So I was always reticent to go over

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into the UFO community and spend a
lot of time there explaining what we were

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doing, because very few people ever
wanted to see the scientific reports or the

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analysis or the techniques of the way
we did it, which was based on

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for ends methods. I guess it's
kind of like when you're driving your car.

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Like for me, I'm not a
mechanical type of person. I don't

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want to know what's going on under
the hood. Yes, as long as

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it's working. So probably a lot
of people are like that. I know

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in this field, a lot of
people are like, tell me if it's

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real or not. I don't know
the technical details about what you're doing with

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that, but I just want to
know if it's really Yes. But in

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reality, you have to spend a
lot of time analyzing it because there's a

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lot of armchair skeptics. You're going
to say, yeah, what about this,

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what about that? And it can
take many, many hours to analyze

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one photograph, particularly in the seventies
and eighties when equipment was limited a scanner.

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A scanner was eighty thousand dollars.
Wow. Then the resolution, the

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software, the techniques of doing it
were costly. But the issues, the

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issues, the fundamental wish use then
and now we're still the same. How

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big is it? How far away
is it? You know? Is it

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a dust particle, is it a
flare? Is it a cloud? Is

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it an airplane light? And what
are the characteristics to do that? So

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we built an extensive database of known
objects, and when we have unknowns,

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we extract the data from the unknown, compare it to the database of knowns,

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try to get a match. Like
fingerprints, you have a database of

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millions of fingerprints that are known.
You get a fingerprint that's unknown. You

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extract the data as best you can
for the fingerprint that's that's left, and

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try to get a match. If
you don't get a match, well it's

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an unknown guy. If you don't
get a match in analyzing the photographs,

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it's an unknown. Unknown unknown doesn't
mean it's an alien's basecraft, means that

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we don't have a match in the
database. So with the unknowns, how

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often were you finding lots of knowns
with the apro material? Well, you

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know, I don't know how to
classify that as a lot of nons.

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I mean, I would get knowns, I would get unknowns, would I

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would get I guess that you were
finding with those in the apro forty,

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I would say there was twenty that
were unknown, ten that were or so

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that were airplanes or light reflections.
That was a key thing to determine the

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software, to determine if an object
is light emitting or light reflecting gets round?

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Okay, is it a disc or
is it an orb? Does it

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have curvature to it? Or is
it you know, I'm saying, is

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it a coin or is it a
ball? Is it a disc? Or

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is it orb? And I mean
many, many, many issues. And

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I went to lots of experts,
lots and lots of experts, including Michael

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Maelan, who years later is known
as Richard Hoagland's nemesis. But at the

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time, Michael Maelan was working at
jeff Propulsion Laboratory and working at Arizona State

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University and was quite open minded about
testing the Billy Meyer photographs interesting and he

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found no evidence of a hoax.
He couldn't find any evidence that it was

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a small model. And that's really
what we are looking for then is this

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a small model and what are the
characteristics? And since we were looking at

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film, one of the things was
if it was superimposed, that we would

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look for multiple grain patterns, and
the multiple grain patterns show up in the

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image area, but would be different
in the sprocket areas. You know where

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the sprocket holes are in the film. Well, if you're superimposing images,

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you'll get two grain patterns in the
in the square imagery in the middle,

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but out in the sprocket area,
which we were also analyzing, we would

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we would have other grain issues grained
to look at. So in the billy

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Meyer pictures that we looked at,
second and third generation film is useful.

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Is useful because we then have more
grain patterns to look at to be able

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to see if there's more grain patterns
in the image area than there is in

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the sprocket area. And never found
that in the in the billy Meyer case.

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And as the years went on,
a lot of hearsay about a lot

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of hearsay about so and so tested
it and found it to be a hoax.

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No white paper's ever written, but
a lot of emotional power behind the

296
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skeptics saying, well, we proved
it to be a hoax. Well,

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where how what showed me the testing? Well, and that's how I feel

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about billy Meyer. You know everybody, it's such a heated, controversial debate.

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Yes, and I agree with you
that a lot of people will say

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that's easy to do, I can
do it. But nobody's without photoshop has

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demonstrated that they can do it or
written up how they have discovered these things

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to be hoax. It's just like
you're saying, I mean, if someone

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was able to write something up,
do an analysis, show us with the

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technology they had back at the time, how it could be done, that

305
00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.880
would be something different. But to
my knowledge, and I've everywhere I've looked,

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even talking to the skeptics, nobody's
done that. The biggest miss there

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was someone just like last year,
who was reproducing some billy Meyer photos but

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he was using photoshop, yes,
and he was saying, look there,

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I'll fix I can do this to
a photoshop now, Well, photoshop didn't

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exist in the seventies. Boll I
took those pictures. I'm not an advocate

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or a promoter of the billy Meyer
case. I do analysis, and I

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stand by my work. Of not
being able to find evidence of a hoax

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or going to match doesn't mean that
I'm authenticating the fact that it's an alien

314
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spacecraft. But out there and the
rest of the world the techniques that I

315
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use. I've been an expert witness
in murder cases in court analyzing video night

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00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:41.839
time case where there's an unclear person
committing a crime and who is that person?

317
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So in a court of law,
I can testify in a murder case

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where someone's life is at stake also
and consider an expert witness in that.

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But over in the UFO arena target
for hand grenades, and that just goes

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along with it. I mean,
that's that's part of it. It used

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to bother me a lot, doesn't
bother me anymore. It bothers me when

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my daughter who's ten, looks up
Daddy on the Internet and finds, Daddy,

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are you really a con man?
You no, Savannah. People can

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write anything they want. The real
important thing about any case is to study

325
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:37.640
the evidence available and prepare it as
though it's going to be admissible in a

326
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case in the court case as evidence. And to that degree, I decided

327
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many many years ago to follow forensic
standards, and there's there's many issues.

328
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You know, people flip flop all
the time, but well you can't.

329
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You can't test anything but the original
or the second generation or has to be

330
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film. Hey, you do the
best that you can with which you have

331
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and what's made available. And you
can test second generation, you can test

332
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:12.079
third generation. Now, have you
had the opportunity to test the originals on

333
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:18.240
the Myer case? Four four pieces
of film that were the piece of film

334
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:23.920
that were in his camera. Okay, and and this is is this the

335
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:30.160
motion film or the stills? Okay? This is stills? And found no

336
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:37.640
evidence of a hoax, found no
sequence processes by which he could do it

337
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:42.920
with the technologies available. And our
team Tom Welch and Lee Elders went to

338
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the local post office, went to
the local drug store, went to the

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places where Billy goes to take his
film and get it processed. And how

340
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does he do it? Well,
he comes in with his camera and opens

341
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it up on my desk and gets
an envelope and puts it in and hand

342
00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.279
it to me. And I've processed
the film and bring it back and hand

343
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:08.039
it to him. There's the pictures, so he's not operating an optical lab,

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and we went to see Wally Gentleman, who was one of the better

345
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:22.079
known model makers in Hollywood, worked
at Lynnwood Dune's world famous Film Effects of

346
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:29.119
Hollywood company. They did films such
as two thousand and one, and Lynwood

347
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:37.359
had done the original King Kong and
they at that point had accumulated a lot

348
00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.559
of history and a lot of expertise
and optical effects, and we had Wally

349
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:47.359
Gentleman analyzed how he thought what would
it take in order to recreate that and

350
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:52.000
two thousand and one was ground breaking
for its time. It's amazing to look

351
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:56.480
at that movie and look at Star
Trek, the original series, and see

352
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.000
this huge gap between the quality in
the fact. And unbeknownst to me,

353
00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:07.200
Wendel stevens Lee Elders and Tom Welch
had Wally Gentleman make a scale model,

354
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took it to Switzerland, hung it
on a fish line at a twenty inch

355
00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:20.599
diameter scale model, and Billy Meyer
and all of them took photographs of it

356
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:27.119
and then brought the photographs back to
me in Arizona to analyze. And I

357
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:36.160
could tell within minutes in my analysis
technique, this is about nineteen eighty one.

358
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What are some of the telltale signs
that you're able to identify when it's

359
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:49.640
a small object. Yeah, it's
kind of what a painter does. An

360
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oil painter is going to paint a
portrait, and the painters decided to have

361
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in the picture the moon, and
then the painting it's four inches in diameter

362
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and a basketball right beside it,
and it's going to be painted photorealistically so

363
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that it really does look like you're
standing looking at the moon. But on

364
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:19.400
the painting it's four inches in diameter
and a basketball that's bouncing and coming towards

365
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.640
you, and it's four inches in
diameter, But your eye needs to be

366
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:30.720
able to say, this is a
basketball that's ten inches in diameter coming at

367
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me, and this is the moon
in a great distance. How does the

368
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painter do that? If you think
about a paint by number kit where it

369
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looks like a coloring book and its
line drawings, the moon, a large

370
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:55.920
object will have more lines of longitude
and latitude in that four inch diameter object.

371
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We might have fifty lines vertical and
fifty lines horizontal. That we would

372
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then use our paint by number kit
and paint it to give it that contour

373
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the basketball, we might have ten
lines of longitude and latitude, so it's

374
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:22.719
contour. The number of shades that
it takes to make it be a parent

375
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:29.599
is going to be reduced. Okay. Second, a large object with a

376
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light shining on it, the painter
is going to have a small area be

377
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:45.320
reflecting the light. The number of
sections on a small object. The sun,

378
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:51.440
for example, is going to light
up the entire basketball or a small

379
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object. If we have a dome, a space dome like the Seattle Dome,

380
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you know, the sun on that
is just going to be a little

381
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:02.800
glint on top of it. Now, that's the extremes of proportion. But

382
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:15.119
if something is reflecting light, the
ratio of the reflecting area that's bright to

383
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:22.440
the entire surface is going to be. There's more light on a small object

384
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:25.480
than there isn't a large object.
So we've got the number of lines of

385
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:35.000
contour, we've got the total surface
area that is reflecting light, and the

386
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:39.320
properties of the edges. Everything in
real life is in focus, but as

387
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:45.880
soon as our eyes are a camera
lens looks at it, the properties of

388
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:52.159
the edges change because of depth of
field of the lens, the distance it

389
00:35:52.320 --> 00:36:00.960
is closer and further away. So
I developed a technique called focus field indexing,

390
00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:09.880
similar to the way that sell animation
at Disney with painted glass that here's

391
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:15.280
the mountains, here's the hills,
here's the trees, here's the shrubs,

392
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:22.159
all coming forward, and the properties
of the edges are different on all of

393
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:30.519
those. Right. So we've taken
a picture and we analyze the edges of

394
00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:37.199
hundreds of edges in the picture.
Some of them we may be able to

395
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.440
go and measure that tree. How
wide does the trunk of that tree?

396
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:46.599
How far away was it? Or
this is an unknown distance, but we

397
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:52.719
do know that this is a Washington
rose. So we can put in known

398
00:36:53.079 --> 00:37:00.039
properties to objects that we can identify, and then take all the objects that

399
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:05.119
have similar edges, and they're going
to be in the same plane, the

400
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:08.400
same index, the same distance away. Although this one's way over on the

401
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:15.960
right hand side, and its edge
index might be let's say four pixels wide.

402
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.920
Way over on the left hand side
is a fence post, and it's

403
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.519
four So that tree and that fence
post, even though they're in totally different

404
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:29.239
areas of the picture, would be
index to be the same distance away.

405
00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:35.000
Gotcha, focus field indexing to be
able to determine the distance away then object

406
00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:39.000
is by the properties of the edges, similar to the way that the optics

407
00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:45.039
in a cruise missile can look and
say, oh, that's the moon.

408
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.840
It's okay, keep going that away. Oops, there's a basketball coming towards

409
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:57.920
us. Let's move a little bit
right. And those three principles the number

410
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.480
of shades of color in the contour. If you look at this coffee cut,

411
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:07.239
it's all really black, but because
of the lighting, it looks like

412
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.599
different shades of black, different shades
of gray or green or blue or whatever.

413
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:19.199
So paint by number, kit,
it's coffee boiling. If we're gonna

414
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:21.599
do a paint by number, KIT, I mean we wanted to show that

415
00:38:21.639 --> 00:38:24.000
it was contoured. Whether it was
a big object or a little object,

416
00:38:24.039 --> 00:38:28.280
it would be there's the shade of
green, then the next shade of green,

417
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.239
the next okay. So uh.
That's one of the ways to be

418
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:40.360
able to gather data about whether an
object is large or small. It's the

419
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:47.559
properties of the edges, the distribution
of reflected light on the object, and

420
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:55.639
the number of intersecting longitude and latitude
lines in the arm makes sense. It's

421
00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:00.920
smirking because it's all blank on my
cap be kept except of the cool Open

422
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.880
Minds TV beautiful Open Minds blue loads. Yeah, you can go get these

423
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:08.400
coffy cups on the website. You
can. People can act something for sale.

424
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:12.599
You sell hats and shirts and things
too. Yeah, exactly, key

425
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.360
shirts out, no hatch yet.
And then of the cool shirt like I

426
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:19.800
got it? Do you like my
Melissa efforts? Show? That is pretty

427
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:23.920
cool? It's funny though, it's
interesting all the rock connections, which is

428
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:29.000
cool. See that means it's cool, dudes. Stan Friedman was able to

429
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.559
show that smart people get involved with
UFOs. All you guys who came from

430
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:37.079
the rock industry show the cool people. So it's the cool and the smart

431
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.760
people. Yes. In the rock
industry, though we were known as very

432
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:45.840
high tech people, we were not
and also ran in the in the industry,

433
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:52.400
we were one of the better knowns
and uh respected touring companies to really

434
00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:59.679
complex shows. Well, on the
Billy Meyer case, it's interesting that Mailing

435
00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:02.119
was interested in this stuff. He's
pretty He's a guy for people who don't

436
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:07.599
know who runs the jet propulsion laboratory. And some people don't know that a

437
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:12.320
lot of these satellites that go up. It's not NASA who owns the picture.

438
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.320
It's a GPL, the Jet Propulsion
Laboratories. And that's why Richard Hopan

439
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:21.559
fights with him because that Richard Hopeland's
essentially got him to say, Hey,

440
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.920
you're going to get whatever pictures I
give you in whatever shape I decide to

441
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:30.559
give them to you, So deal
with them. Because Hopland's accuse them of

442
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:32.880
hiding picture or few people know that
Michael Malan worked on the Billy Markets.

443
00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:37.679
Yeah, that's really interesting. The
only place that's published is in the book

444
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:45.440
White Years. There's a section in
there that talks about Michael mail and analyzing

445
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:47.920
pictures. If you author the book
went and interviewed Michael Mallan, weld you

446
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:52.039
really do it? And did you
find any evidence of a hoax? And

447
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:54.559
Allan, why did you do it? What did he say? Well,

448
00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:59.280
he said he found no evidence of
a hoax. He didn't say there was

449
00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:04.519
an extra Trust spacecraft, so he
found no evidence of it being made by

450
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.840
Billy Meyer or humans. I saw
him do a talk in Denver about five

451
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:12.320
or six years ago, because we
have a Mars research thing at our museum

452
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:16.039
in Denver, and he was saying
some pretty groundbreaking things for that time.

453
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:22.239
He was before NASA wanted to really
admit that there was an evidence of an

454
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.480
atmosphere on Mars, and he was
saying, oh, yeah, there had

455
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:29.719
to be tropical there had to be
oceans because all of the sand and everything

456
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:32.840
it had to have been eroded down
from vast amounts of waters, which was

457
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:39.920
pretty interesting. But of course he
has those arguments with Mayland. Were there

458
00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:46.199
other people involved with the billy Meyer
case that I know back then? You

459
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:50.239
know, of course, yeah,
that were shocking that people don't know about,

460
00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:53.880
you know, higher level well most
people know of course, Lingle Stevens,

461
00:41:54.119 --> 00:42:00.639
Yeah, and Lee and Britt Elders
and Tom Welch. Lee and Brett

462
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:08.719
owned Intercept Company, which was a
highly regarded private countermeasure company. And Tom

463
00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:16.719
Welch, whose father James Welch,
was high level FBI. Oh yeah,

464
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:20.639
and he was very intrigued by the
case. Well, he was involved with

465
00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:23.519
on a daily basis for four or
five years. Tom Welch was And we

466
00:42:23.559 --> 00:42:31.760
went to a lot of places to
have the billy Meyer case analyzed. Marcel

467
00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:38.360
Vogel at IBM, we went to
we went to s A C Company,

468
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:47.880
We went to the Anti Submarine Warfare
Center, We went to TRW, We

469
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:55.239
went to Sandy Laboratories, we went
to and these were all places that aided

470
00:42:55.320 --> 00:43:00.960
in the investigation. These were there
were two ways it was done. One

471
00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:08.599
it was people that had an interest
in the topic and were able to moonlight,

472
00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:17.599
were able to use, under appropriate
conditions, the equipment at their facility

473
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:22.719
to analyze the pictures or the metal
samples. Ah, the metal samples,

474
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:36.000
regardless of all the huha about the
Billy Meyer photographs, analyzing the metal samples

475
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:43.920
which was done by Marcel Vogel,
and I think a number of times he

476
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:53.199
had Jim Hirtack jj Hrtack with him
when the analysis was being done, and

477
00:43:55.679 --> 00:44:05.039
that is much more compelling to me. The analysis that was done by Marcel

478
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:08.199
Vogel of the metal samples. Well, let's get into that. What were

479
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:15.199
the metal samples, how were they
supposedly allegedly retrieved him? And what was

480
00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:23.840
fam They were allegedly handed to Billy
Meyer by one of the extraterrestrials the box

481
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:35.440
one night, and Billy gave them
to the group Lee Tom britt Wendell the

482
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:38.400
following day. And they were coming
back to the United States they got back

483
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:43.519
to the United States and one of
the first things that we did they brought

484
00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:49.159
them to me and I laid them
out on the floor. I had a

485
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.639
studio at the time of at Scottsville
Air Park, and we took all the

486
00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:59.559
samples and laid them out. They
were rocks, they were black sand looking,

487
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:07.440
they were they were silver soder looking. None of it looked exotic.

488
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:20.199
There were four stages of their materials. There was an explanation from them to

489
00:45:20.320 --> 00:45:28.679
Billy, to the group, to
me on how they were made, what

490
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.280
they did, How were these forest
ages all about. We get to that

491
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.920
in a minute. We laid them
all out, we inventoried them, and

492
00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:37.239
then we set out to decide,
well, how are we going to have

493
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:43.079
them tested. Well, we need
to put in some controls of things that

494
00:45:43.119 --> 00:45:46.199
we know what they are. Hey, this looks like silver soder. Let's

495
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:52.159
put in some real silver soder.
This looks like black sand, Let's put

496
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:58.159
in some other black sand. And
we created a little kit. First kit

497
00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:04.400
went to doctor Walter or Weird material
scientists at University of Arizona. He did

498
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:12.280
his series of tests. In fact
one one package was sent to Omni Magazine.

499
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:17.280
This is when we were young and
foolish, and one package was sent

500
00:46:17.320 --> 00:46:24.440
there, one package went to MIT, and one package. After careful study

501
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:30.599
I analyz, I determined that this
guy, I'm Marcel Vogel, who was

502
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:36.840
a scientist at IBM and was one
of the founding members of the Mendala Society

503
00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:42.519
and the Noetics Sciences Foundation, would
be a good person to go to.

504
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:52.159
So we went to him and he
used his advanced microscope lab to analyze the

505
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:58.719
different materials. Now, because we
had put controls in sample one B and

506
00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:00.960
you know, nine C whatever,
we knew what the numbers referred to,

507
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:10.480
right, so we expected that this
sample would be silver solder, this sample

508
00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:16.360
would be you know, a piece
of granite. But to the samples in

509
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:25.320
particular were bizarre to Marcel Vogel and
to all of us, because in his

510
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:34.719
destructive and non destructive testing, he
found that in this one particular sample that

511
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:40.440
it showed traces of atomic elements one
through fifty nine, half of the periodic

512
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:46.079
chart, all in one substance,
All in one substance. Now that that

513
00:47:46.119 --> 00:48:00.400
includes noble gases that don't combine with
anything, and to find all of those

514
00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:07.000
elements in one substance was completely startling
to Marcel. The second thing when he

515
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:15.320
polished it and looked at it under
a scanning electron microscope, found that there

516
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:27.000
were organic materials unburned nestled right up
against materials that were melted, like thulium

517
00:48:27.639 --> 00:48:32.360
and platinum that melted twenty six hundred
degrees, with little pieces of fern,

518
00:48:35.519 --> 00:48:45.360
organic materials, biofringent materials interlaced with
high temperature metals. And what did this

519
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:49.679
material look like to the eye was
a white rock. It looked like a

520
00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:54.239
glump of sot of melted silver,
soid okay, a glump and it was

521
00:48:54.280 --> 00:49:00.880
sliced and then polished, and he
couldn't explain it. He couldn't explain how

522
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:07.039
it could be made. He couldn't
make it. And he was one of

523
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:13.880
the key members of the team at
IBM that had developed some things like color

524
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:21.559
television, phosphors, magnetic floppy disc
emulsion, advanced materials for the time.

525
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:35.880
And he gave us a two hour
videotape report. So we still have of

526
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:39.679
course looking at look with the images
through the microscope, and what he was

527
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:43.320
saying, look, I can't imagine
how this would be made, or where

528
00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:46.760
it would come from, or how
it would be done, and with all

529
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:52.239
the controversy that was going on in
the pictures and a lot of mean spirited

530
00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:59.440
people what they had to say about
the Myer case, uh, it was

531
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:07.920
decided that the UFO community was not
the place to platform the findings on a

532
00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:12.679
daily or regular basis. There would
be some books published and it would be

533
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:16.960
released to the UFO community and the
mass population at the same time. That

534
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:23.519
was it. There was no obligation
to the UFO community to show anything to

535
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:32.199
them because there was not a sense
of science peer review dignity. There wasn't.

536
00:50:32.199 --> 00:50:36.400
There wasn't, and I'm sorry to
say to this day pretty much still

537
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:38.400
isn't and it's even worse. Well, and I know what you mean,

538
00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:45.199
And really I think whenever I think
towards this field, it's important to think

539
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:52.239
bigger than an outside of just the
small UFO community, because really that's not

540
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:58.119
who we're talking to anyway. We
want to convince and show the conventional academics

541
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:01.360
out there that there's some credible stuff
then that it's worth spending their time looking

542
00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:07.400
at some of this. Yes,
so I would understand why you would want

543
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:13.840
to do that, and I think
that's a better avenue. And there's also

544
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:25.159
one other thing to consider, and
that is if extraterrestrials come here and they

545
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:35.280
can communicate with us that if extraterrestrials
didn't want there to be a cover up,

546
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:39.960
there wouldn't be one, gotcha that
they allow it to happen. In

547
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:45.199
fact, they may encourage it to
happen. And then it becomes an analysis

548
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:50.039
of why do they think like that. Is it something sinister? Are they

549
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:55.280
going to cook us and eat us
later? Or do they have some purpose

550
00:51:57.239 --> 00:52:01.199
in their remaining separate, because maybe
they want to see how we're going to

551
00:52:01.239 --> 00:52:06.400
go with our own free will and
our own destiny. Because in the meantime

552
00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:10.159
they behave like a covert operation.
They're here, they're gone, they're there,

553
00:52:10.199 --> 00:52:17.880
they're not pass through walls. Kidnap
people, abduction, kidnapping, it's

554
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:22.440
against you can't do that. That's
illegal. You go to jail for life

555
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:27.880
if you kidnap people. And extraterrestrials
seem to do it it will Now is

556
00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:34.880
that for some positive reason that we
don't really understand. Is there some some

557
00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:45.039
think something that we have that they're
really interested in. So the analysis of

558
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:51.480
the pictures and the UFO cases of
the hundreds and hundred cases of analyzed pictures.

559
00:52:52.519 --> 00:53:00.519
It became more important for me to
do it, for for me to

560
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:04.800
understand what was going on, not
for me to be a conduit. Every

561
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.800
time I had something to turn around
shouted out there to the world or to

562
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:13.719
the media, because there was not
very much positive that was going to come

563
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:22.079
of it. People would say mean
things, lies, create problems, which

564
00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:27.880
I had to deal with a lot
over the years, well, especially people

565
00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:35.239
like Billy Myer, especially the experiencers
or the epdic keys that they often such

566
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:39.159
as Travis Walton or even some of
Robbie Williams was saying this this week because

567
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:44.599
the star who came out to say
he believes in UFOs. They start to

568
00:53:44.599 --> 00:53:46.760
say, I wish I never would
have opened my mouth and even gone there

569
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:51.840
because people just get too crazy about
it, or mean, do you have

570
00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:55.199
that feeling at all? Oh,
yes, of course, really well,

571
00:53:55.360 --> 00:54:04.480
I mean there have been things said
about me by a particular group going back

572
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:07.719
many many years that there's no foundation
in fact at all, but because of

573
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:14.159
their vocal approach. Cayl Korff,
one in particular that said and wrote things

574
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:17.760
about me and other UFO investigators,
had no basis in fact or truth at

575
00:54:17.800 --> 00:54:27.559
all, whatsoever became viewed as fact
by the UFO community and the general public.

576
00:54:27.639 --> 00:54:34.400
Then, even though cal Korff has
been summarily discredited, now no one

577
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:39.159
has gone back and undone the damage
that he did, and people most of

578
00:54:39.159 --> 00:54:45.840
what people believe about the Billy Myer
case is based on things that cal Korff

579
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:51.239
claims he discovered or he did or
he said with people now have found out

580
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:54.480
that it was all lies. He
didn't have any scientific ability at all,

581
00:54:54.519 --> 00:54:59.480
he didn't have any team, he
didn't he wasn't working at all these places

582
00:54:59.519 --> 00:55:06.760
doing these things. But people say
that the Billy Meyer case is not true

583
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:14.519
generally because of what kl Korf said, and that the messengers of the Billy

584
00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:21.000
Meyer case of the last few years
have been UFO merchants. I mean,

585
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:30.280
they're selling stuff, CDs, public
lectures, whatever, for the purpose of

586
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:35.840
making a living. And that's it. I mean, And it's okay to

587
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:43.239
make a living in things in the
paranormal if you're making a living distributing the

588
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:51.280
truth, the facts, but distributing
information just based on whatever or somebody says

589
00:55:51.400 --> 00:55:55.400
or thinks that moment and packaging it
up and rolling it out there so that

590
00:55:55.480 --> 00:56:00.880
you can, like a carnival hutster
collect the money. Has that would insult

591
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:07.440
to injury on the Billy Meyer case
and other quality cases where people throw out

592
00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:10.719
the baby with the bathwater. That's
what's easier to be a debunker or skeptic,

593
00:56:10.760 --> 00:56:15.039
it would seem, because there are
a lot of people who it's too

594
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:20.599
difficult to think of the implications of
what some of these findings are. It's

595
00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:23.800
easier just to be able to bury
your head in the sand, and the

596
00:56:23.840 --> 00:56:28.280
media love stitch up on that.
A lot of people still believe that crop

597
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:31.679
circles are all made by these two
old guys that after they're drinking at the

598
00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:37.119
pub, they're going out and making
all these huge crop circles overnight and all

599
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:42.280
over the world. Or you know, there's a number of other stories like

600
00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:47.679
that. But that's the easy way
out, it would seem, so unfortunately

601
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:51.800
a lot of people take the easy
road. Yeah, who else will we

602
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:57.920
pick on? Well, we don't
know. One of the questions. I

603
00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:02.960
think one of the areas maybe we
should move into remaining time is into the

604
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:09.079
Phoenix Heights, because of course that
was a big deal and really which was

605
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:13.039
great. You know, the media
had you all over the place to talk

606
00:57:13.079 --> 00:57:16.440
about the lights and your analysis on
the lights. So where were you when

607
00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:21.559
this happened and how did you find
out about all of them? Well,

608
00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:24.000
it happened in Phoenix, and I
live in Phoenix. And the night of

609
00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:28.039
the Phoenix Light, did you see
him? No? I did not.

610
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:37.480
I was hosting Stephen Greer editing in
my facility. I was donating time,

611
00:57:38.840 --> 00:57:44.880
and I had a policy pretty much
of if someone asked me in the right

612
00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:52.119
way, I would let them use
the facility for editing or analysis without charge.

613
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:57.960
And tho he was editing at the
time those great disclosure witness testimony DVDs

614
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:02.000
that that are out right or yeah, that's what he was editing. That's

615
00:58:02.039 --> 00:58:06.840
what he said he was editing.
Oh no, it wasn't nutty stuff,

616
00:58:06.880 --> 00:58:16.679
was it. No, it wasn't
that. It was just I don't want

617
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:21.679
to get into it right now.
But frequently I found what Stephen Queer said

618
00:58:21.719 --> 00:58:25.239
he was doing to be at variance
of what he was really doing. And

619
00:58:25.639 --> 00:58:30.719
anyhow, we were in the facility
and the thing, and of course the

620
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:34.280
phones all went to the switchboard that
night. I didn't find out about the

621
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:45.760
Phoenix Lights events until the following morning
when some local news stations contacted me Channel

622
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:51.000
ten and Channel three in Phoenix.
For the years before the Phoenix Lights,

623
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:55.559
because I'm here in town, they
would frequently have me on local TV,

624
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:01.239
you know, analyzing different things that
happened. So I took a look at

625
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:04.960
him, you know, the following
day, and then it just began to

626
00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:10.960
accumulate the number of press people that
were coming and the number of witness reports,

627
00:59:12.000 --> 00:59:19.320
and how we were going to get
at what was happening was to create

628
00:59:19.400 --> 00:59:24.239
some quote town hall meetings where we
had at least half a dozen of them

629
00:59:24.280 --> 00:59:29.079
with one hundred or more witnesses all
at the same time. That's what's amazing

630
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.639
that I think even people to this
day, at least throughout the rest of

631
00:59:31.639 --> 00:59:37.199
the country, don't realize how many
witnesses there were. There were possibly probably

632
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:42.920
thousands, probably thousands. I know
Barwood, the councilwoman, she said she

633
00:59:43.000 --> 00:59:52.679
talked to over a thousand peoples herself. Yes, and there was no video

634
00:59:52.760 --> 00:59:59.000
evidence up until the ten o'clock event, which was what we were trying to

635
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:02.079
find. We were having a town
hall meetings so we could find someone anyone

636
01:00:02.199 --> 01:00:08.840
that had taken pictures or shot video
before the ten o'clock events, but the

637
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:14.840
first sightings, you know, I
started about seven thirty. The Whites moved

638
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:22.400
over the entire state diagonally from the
Sedona area through Phoenix down to Tucson,

639
01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:28.079
turnaround, came back, and then
left the state about ten thirty. I

640
01:00:28.079 --> 01:00:30.719
don't think cell phones were there even
many cell phones then. Well, yeah

641
01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:35.199
there were cell phones, but I
guess not. They took pictures, yeah,

642
01:00:35.440 --> 01:00:39.639
certainly not the first picture. Yeah, right, it's funny to think

643
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:49.719
about how quickly the technology has changed
and advanced. But so that you didn't

644
01:00:49.960 --> 01:00:52.639
how did the video come about?
Then? I think they had it early

645
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.119
on, at least some video,
right, Oh they did? You know?

646
01:00:57.360 --> 01:01:04.039
The television stations had three different sets
of video the following day and brought

647
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:08.079
them down and then the day after
that. A woman that wanted to remain

648
01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:16.599
anonymous because of her her job,
doctor Lynn KEYTI. For years we referred

649
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:20.760
to her as doctor X. Oh. Yeah, sure, she wanted she

650
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:22.199
didn't want to be on the news. She wantedone to know. She had

651
01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:29.920
video and film, thirty five millimeter
film. So we were analyzing a thirty

652
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:35.400
five millimeter film. We couldn't tell
you when we had it interesting And then

653
01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:39.519
she also though was great about her
she had taken some month prior of a

654
01:01:39.599 --> 01:01:47.320
similar Yes, yes, and I
put three or four of my staff people

655
01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:51.480
on it of a few hours a
day. We put a lot of time

656
01:01:51.519 --> 01:01:55.679
and attention into it. Well,
we were running a service bureau at the

657
01:01:55.679 --> 01:02:05.079
time, Village laps as a service
bureau doing image processing software for pretty large

658
01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:10.280
companies. In fact, we are
working on some novel software that at the

659
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:15.519
time a number of reporters said did
not exist, that is now standard at

660
01:02:15.559 --> 01:02:23.880
the FBI and Department of Justice and
other forensic analysis and its spectrum analysis software.

661
01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:28.840
But at the time the reporters who
were talking to us about it went

662
01:02:28.920 --> 01:02:32.679
and talked to a couple of astronomers
who said, there's no such thing as

663
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:42.199
spectrum analysis of videotape. It's a
hoax, it's a fraud. And when

664
01:02:43.159 --> 01:02:52.679
three years later that software became published
by I Tripoli and Siggraph and is now

665
01:02:52.000 --> 01:03:02.559
even on the FBI Department of Justice
website as the standard standard in image analysis.

666
01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:08.280
No one in the UFO community that
called me a why and sack of

667
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:14.599
shit? Oh I mean, oh
no, I have ruined the show.

668
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:22.559
It was much even stronger than that. Then no one comes forward and says,

669
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:28.119
oh, we're so sorry that we
dismissed everything that you were doing.

670
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:34.480
Oh yes, now we see that
it's a standard by the FBI and others,

671
01:03:36.079 --> 01:03:38.679
and you just have to let it
go. And this software that was

672
01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:44.000
able to look at the different types
of lights and determine kind of what they

673
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:49.159
were at disource, well it looks
at different lights. It's pretty pretty basic.

674
01:03:49.239 --> 01:03:53.559
I mean, for anyone that even
uses Photoshop or any any image painting

675
01:03:53.639 --> 01:04:00.440
program, let alone an image analysis
program. You know that light is broken

676
01:04:00.519 --> 01:04:06.639
up into red, green, and
blue. Any pixel on the screen is

677
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:14.599
defined by its red, green and
blue content RGP on a scale usually from

678
01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:17.320
zero to two fifty six of each
red, green and blue. So if

679
01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:25.239
you analyze a light, you get
its red, green and blue content,

680
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:31.639
it's RGB value as a histogram,
as a color spectrum. You analyze the

681
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:38.199
color spectrum in lights and can compare
this white light to that white light to

682
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:43.440
that white light and see if they
are all matching identical, and also see

683
01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:48.199
if they're stable or flickering or moving
or a number of different properties. It's

684
01:04:48.239 --> 01:04:55.679
all pretty much standard as the only
really way that you can do it.

685
01:04:55.719 --> 01:05:00.360
Is it precise enough to tell like
an airplane from a helicopter, provided you

686
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:03.719
have that airplane light already stored,
and provided you have the helicopter light something

687
01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:09.280
compared to you. Of course,
yes, every time you can say this

688
01:05:09.440 --> 01:05:13.280
light is exactly like this one,
but it's not like this one, this

689
01:05:13.320 --> 01:05:16.719
one, or this one. Sure
so in the Phoenix lights and some of

690
01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:23.840
what you looked at, you found
that the lights weren't similar to any notes.

691
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:29.679
They were not flares because they were
not modulating. They were not flares

692
01:05:29.760 --> 01:05:33.840
flicker like a candle light. To
look at it as a graph, think

693
01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:39.559
of it as music sound and you're
looking at a solo scope, and when

694
01:05:39.599 --> 01:05:43.239
it's quiet, the graph is way
at the bottom. You have a mic,

695
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:46.960
take a drum flam. You hit
the drum and the graph will immediately

696
01:05:47.000 --> 01:05:53.639
go up and that will immediately go
down, whereas a violin, you hit

697
01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:58.039
the no, it'll come on in
a different way. Whereas a drum coming

698
01:05:58.079 --> 01:06:02.079
on and going off looks like a
cliff, whereas a violin looks kind of

699
01:06:02.159 --> 01:06:06.360
like a like a little hill going
up and then going down at you.

700
01:06:06.760 --> 01:06:11.519
So you look at the way it
comes on, the way it goes off,

701
01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:17.360
and the way it it sustains.
So a graph of a light in

702
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:21.679
this room, you put the light
switch, it's dark, and the light

703
01:06:21.719 --> 01:06:28.760
comes on a certain way, and
then the light stays on and it's constant.

704
01:06:29.400 --> 01:06:36.880
Right, And the Phoenix lights unknowns
were constant. And the UH flares,

705
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:43.400
No, two flares are identical,
maybe very close, but they're not

706
01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:47.000
identical. Now the images that you
see out there of the Phoenix flights,

707
01:06:47.559 --> 01:06:57.559
the most popular ones syd who took
that video, Mike Kristen Okay and and

708
01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:01.360
the Mike Christian video. Some people
say that those were flares, but those

709
01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:05.719
weren't what most people had said.
Were you able to find in the research?

710
01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:10.840
Were there any flares that were dropped
that night to your knowledge, Well,

711
01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:15.119
we didn't find any video of flares. There was an issue about whether

712
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:19.440
those lights were in front of the
Australia Mountains or behind the mountains and above

713
01:07:19.480 --> 01:07:28.000
it or below it, And we
have conflicting analysis in that. I know

714
01:07:28.079 --> 01:07:31.320
I saw you do some analysis on
that, right. And remember in the

715
01:07:31.440 --> 01:07:39.880
nineties, video frame capture boards didn't
exist. There's one frame at a time.

716
01:07:40.159 --> 01:07:45.800
You grab one frame of time of
video well, they did exist,

717
01:07:45.880 --> 01:07:50.039
but they did not exist in our
analysis. Equipment in the those kind of

718
01:07:50.039 --> 01:07:56.800
graphic cards at the time were thirty
thousand dollars where now a graphics card is

719
01:07:56.880 --> 01:08:03.840
thirty dollars. Okay, the software
and this and that were all different.

720
01:08:05.400 --> 01:08:14.719
So as the years went on and
equipment became more available, different levels,

721
01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:21.319
and we analyzed it again, we
would get more information, not necessarily different

722
01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:27.479
information, but get more information that
would lead us to be able to make

723
01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:32.600
a conclusion about something that we were
uncertain of before. So the way the

724
01:08:32.720 --> 01:08:38.279
lights came on and the way the
lights stayed not modulating the unknown lights and

725
01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:45.439
the way they went off we're not
characteristic of flares at all. The brightness

726
01:08:46.880 --> 01:08:54.359
there were flares from that distance,
the characteristics of those flares, and we

727
01:08:54.399 --> 01:09:00.359
went to the manufacturer, We went
to flares experts, found out what FLEs

728
01:09:00.439 --> 01:09:04.039
did, how bright they needed to
be in order to be this bright on

729
01:09:04.079 --> 01:09:10.279
a video camera at seventy miles away, and the curvature of the earth,

730
01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:16.680
how high would they have to be
in order to be seen seventy miles away

731
01:09:18.079 --> 01:09:26.119
with this brightness of these characteristics,
and we just couldn't find anything that indicated

732
01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:32.720
that they were flares optically. Second, the public information officer at Davis,

733
01:09:32.760 --> 01:09:38.359
mont And Air Force Base in Tucson
said, yes, we had planes up,

734
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:43.640
they did drop flares at the very
Goldwater Range and they were on the

735
01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:51.199
ground at eight thirty. That conversation
happened between Bill Hamilton and the public information

736
01:09:51.279 --> 01:10:01.039
officer at Davis Monton. Some months
later, the public information officer for the

737
01:10:01.119 --> 01:10:11.000
Arizona National Guard, Captain Eileen Bevins, said that the Maryland National Guard was

738
01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:15.399
here and had dropped flares at ten
o'clock, which was what was seen by

739
01:10:15.439 --> 01:10:23.640
everyone, and that that's what accounted
for. That's a lot of time,

740
01:10:24.079 --> 01:10:31.960
months and months for no one to
know that the Maryland National Guard had been

741
01:10:31.960 --> 01:10:39.880
here and dropped flares and the times
didn't match. Well. Then mcgaha on

742
01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:45.560
Larry King that I think he's an
astronomer, right. He was saying that

743
01:10:46.199 --> 01:10:51.800
he believed for some reason they were
eight ten yes, and which are extremely

744
01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:59.239
loud, think killers. What aren't
they even called wars? Yes, so,

745
01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:01.960
and I don't know what you got
that from from, especially when what

746
01:11:02.119 --> 01:11:08.079
was reported had no sound, yes, even in the video. Yes,

747
01:11:08.439 --> 01:11:13.560
Well, there was a lot of
hearsaying there was a lot of rush to

748
01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:19.439
judgment about it. All I know
is in my analysis, I found no

749
01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:27.359
indication that it could be flares.
I found no witnesses to the fact of

750
01:11:27.439 --> 01:11:30.520
it being flares. But even some
of the witnesses of the eight o'clock event

751
01:11:31.479 --> 01:11:41.279
or earlier have talked about it being
flares. So there's not a consensus of

752
01:11:41.319 --> 01:11:45.520
anyone that quote believes in the Phoenix
lights, thinks that there are not flares,

753
01:11:45.560 --> 01:11:50.600
and people that don't believe in the
Phoenix Lights or whatever I say that

754
01:11:50.680 --> 01:11:58.399
it is flares. It's a mission
accomplished by someone to create a confusion.

755
01:11:59.039 --> 01:12:02.399
A couple of questions on the chat
regarding the Phoenix sights. Was there ever

756
01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:06.680
any video or pictures that were taken
where you were able to make out any

757
01:12:06.960 --> 01:12:12.359
sort of structure. No, no
video or I could make out a structure.

758
01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:16.600
Of course, witnesses had said a
chevron tape of things, and where

759
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:24.720
the where the lights always in a
configuration that supported that. We did a

760
01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:35.439
model of a configuration of the lights
in a computer based model based on various

761
01:12:35.439 --> 01:12:43.199
witness reports and on the videos that
we had, and then located it in

762
01:12:43.319 --> 01:12:49.600
different positions to be able to get
that view from that angle at that position

763
01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:58.600
of what would look like a different
object, and found consistency that it could

764
01:12:58.640 --> 01:13:02.239
have been just one object with lights
on it, but when viewed from different

765
01:13:02.279 --> 01:13:08.279
angles, would look like a different
configuration of lights. And there were a

766
01:13:08.359 --> 01:13:15.840
number of witnesses that reported the lights
quote undocking from the object, flying off

767
01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:21.279
at a great distance, and then
others that reported seeing the lights docking back

768
01:13:21.319 --> 01:13:30.920
on that object. Wow. So
another question is have spectrometers ever been used

769
01:13:30.920 --> 01:13:38.640
to analyze light and would that be
effective? Welld like a not a mass

770
01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:43.079
spectrometer, because you can't do that
with video. That's a different chemical process.

771
01:13:43.840 --> 01:13:54.279
And there's devices that are spectrometers that
are used in film in analyzing film

772
01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:58.199
this issue, this has been in
the video. We get a version of

773
01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:04.319
that doing color spectrum analysis, and
that's one of the things that we use

774
01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:10.880
to I give the lights an index
number so that we can try to match

775
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:18.720
it to the database. And yes, we have used software to do a

776
01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:26.479
color spectrum analysis, not a chemical
spectrum analysis. You can't do that on

777
01:14:26.600 --> 01:14:30.560
videotape like astronomers do with stars.
And that was the basis for a lot

778
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:35.119
of confusion back then that our use
of that word and astronomer's use of that

779
01:14:35.159 --> 01:14:43.479
word is different. Yes, gotcha, Hanad. I was curious how you

780
01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:50.520
felt then when during this period of
time five Dimington had had his press conference,

781
01:14:50.920 --> 01:14:56.239
yes, and came out with this
guy is aid wearing the et outfit.

782
01:14:58.079 --> 01:15:05.079
I felt immediately that that someone had
gotten to him and said the investigation

783
01:15:05.199 --> 01:15:08.760
that you said you're going to do, you're not going to do it.

784
01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:14.159
You're going to make fun of it. Do you still believe that's the case.

785
01:15:15.119 --> 01:15:19.279
Well, he said in interviews in
the last couple of years, including

786
01:15:19.319 --> 01:15:25.960
one with James Fox, that no
one ever came. And his answer to

787
01:15:26.079 --> 01:15:30.359
him makes sense that he was trying
to diffuse the situation because people were really

788
01:15:30.399 --> 01:15:34.000
excited about him and he was out
of losses what to do. Yes,

789
01:15:34.039 --> 01:15:41.840
because he wasn't able to do anything. I haven't talked to him about it.

790
01:15:42.439 --> 01:15:45.920
I can't look him in the eye
and know what he's revealing. Now

791
01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:50.880
that's the rest of the story.
But remember the National Guard was under his

792
01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:57.439
control. Eileen Bins that came forward
and said it was the Maryland National Guard

793
01:15:59.439 --> 01:16:03.840
would have been a regular dialogue with
him at that same time, and at

794
01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:15.039
the same time the FEDS were coming
after him because they didn't like what he

795
01:16:15.079 --> 01:16:19.319
was doing in states rights. The
big thing that five Synington did was when

796
01:16:19.319 --> 01:16:26.319
the federal government ran out of money
one weekend and closed the Grand Canyon of

797
01:16:26.399 --> 01:16:33.600
Federal Park, five Simington sent state
people up to open the park, which

798
01:16:34.159 --> 01:16:40.800
caused a great controversy between the federal
government and the state government, and to

799
01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:45.399
a number of people, became the
real reason why the federal government went after

800
01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:50.760
him and claimed that he had given
false reports on his financial statement. He

801
01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:55.239
had never taken any money from anyone. What he was run out of office

802
01:16:55.319 --> 01:17:03.000
for was supposedly giving false financial information
by exaggerating the net worth of some of

803
01:17:03.000 --> 01:17:10.159
the properties that he owned. That
was it interesting because that's a gray area

804
01:17:10.199 --> 01:17:13.520
anyway, Yes, but he was
run out of office for that. As

805
01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:16.680
far as you ask anyone what five
Symington did, well, well, he

806
01:17:16.720 --> 01:17:23.520
stole money and went to jail,
and that's not what happened. So there's

807
01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:30.920
a lot more to that story.
And I don't want to try to prejudge

808
01:17:30.840 --> 01:17:35.119
what he did or why he did
it. All I know is that what

809
01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:43.800
he did made my stand even more
difficult. Well, it is great,

810
01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:47.039
and if it's true and everything what
he's claiming now, which he saw the

811
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:53.520
Phoenix fights and it was a huge
chevron shaped craft and he believes that it

812
01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:59.000
is not something that is of this
world and technology beyond us. It's a

813
01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:02.119
brave of him to do so to
come forward now if you know that is

814
01:18:02.159 --> 01:18:09.079
the case, so to please,
Yes, genuine thing where he's making amends

815
01:18:09.079 --> 01:18:15.600
for those for that period of time. Although you know, really in government,

816
01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:18.239
and I think people listening to the
show probably understand that the people who

817
01:18:18.399 --> 01:18:25.680
seem to be the guys really controlling
things have a lot of It's a lot

818
01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:28.920
more difficult than just hey, I'm
the boss, this is what we're going

819
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:31.000
to do. I'm the governor,
I'm the president. Yes, there's a

820
01:18:31.039 --> 01:18:38.520
lot of people they have to please
that have a strong say in what they're

821
01:18:38.520 --> 01:18:44.479
doing. Yes, So now that
we've got ten minutes left, what do

822
01:18:44.560 --> 01:18:47.279
you actually before we leave the Phoenix
Lights. I did also want to mention

823
01:18:47.720 --> 01:18:51.640
that doctor X, who you refer
to link to Tai we know her as

824
01:18:51.760 --> 01:18:58.760
now has now created a probably the
best documentary on the Phoenix Lights with hundreds

825
01:18:58.760 --> 01:19:03.840
of lots of witness is on this
documentary and so she's out there speaking about

826
01:19:04.640 --> 01:19:11.600
everything she experienced during that period of
time. So, and you've been part

827
01:19:11.600 --> 01:19:15.079
of that a bit. I'm in
that. Yeah, So that's kind of

828
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:23.319
interesting that she would hide her her
who she was back then, but now

829
01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:29.079
she's really out and about in this
subject. Well, she further investigated would

830
01:19:29.079 --> 01:19:33.279
have gone on that night and the
rest of the phenomena. She got religion

831
01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:40.119
about it, essay and saw that
being a messenger of what really happened was

832
01:19:40.520 --> 01:19:47.159
more important than protecting her career.
And in fact, her husband, Frank

833
01:19:47.960 --> 01:19:55.560
and her kids support her work,
which is great. That's great. So

834
01:19:55.640 --> 01:20:02.239
what are you up to now?
Agriculture have been studying for many years the

835
01:20:02.279 --> 01:20:10.840
effects of outside stimuli on plants,
seeds and plants, and I've been developing

836
01:20:10.960 --> 01:20:19.600
technologies for making plants grow faster,
more nutrition, larger. Have you heard

837
01:20:19.640 --> 01:20:28.920
about how the seeds and crap circles
will often in the genuine anomalous ones will

838
01:20:28.960 --> 01:20:33.039
grow quicker? Yes? Do you
do that electromagnetic pulsing? Have you looked

839
01:20:33.039 --> 01:20:40.279
into that? I've read about it. I've been after Peter Sorenson for years

840
01:20:40.319 --> 01:20:45.279
to send me a bag of seeds. Yeah, I know. Frankburg of

841
01:20:45.439 --> 01:20:48.439
BLT has done a lot of investigation
into that is that bacon, lettuce and

842
01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:53.960
tomato research groups. Oh yeah,
I don't know. Yeah, that's the

843
01:20:53.960 --> 01:20:57.239
one. Nancy's part of it.
Okay, great, well, forgive me

844
01:20:57.319 --> 01:21:00.239
for calling it. You have to
look at well that's what everybody calls it.

845
01:21:00.319 --> 01:21:09.760
Yes, yeah, and we've discovered
that scientifically there is precedent for it

846
01:21:09.920 --> 01:21:15.079
in that the Hope, the Dogon
tribe, the Allayed tribe in Australia and

847
01:21:15.439 --> 01:21:25.199
Plaines Indians have been using certain sounds
and instruments for thousands of years to stimulate

848
01:21:25.800 --> 01:21:30.560
plant growth. In fact, the
Dogon tribe and Ethiopia grows huge fruits and

849
01:21:30.680 --> 01:21:36.319
vegetables and terrible soil and has a
planting ceremony with some really bizarre sounds and

850
01:21:36.359 --> 01:21:44.319
instruments. And we've been analyzing those
frequencies and wave shapes and the modulation patterns

851
01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:48.359
and sounds of birds and bugs and
bees and thunder and all the combination of

852
01:21:48.439 --> 01:21:58.680
sounds and ground vibrations that will increase
for those of you interested lycopene and proline

853
01:21:59.199 --> 01:22:04.079
content, increase the mitochondria rate of
the dentosigine triphosphate, and there will be

854
01:22:04.079 --> 01:22:08.039
a test later. So you write
down these words interesting. That's that someone

855
01:22:08.079 --> 01:22:13.680
in the chat was saying earlier there's
going to be a quid, So what

856
01:22:13.800 --> 01:22:16.239
is that. What are one of
the items that you've seen that has the

857
01:22:16.279 --> 01:22:23.640
biggest effect, well, the sound
waves specifically, and it's a pattern we

858
01:22:23.680 --> 01:22:29.479
can get the seed germination in two
days on things that might take ten to

859
01:22:29.520 --> 01:22:35.239
fifteen days. And the guy that
wrote the book many years ago in seventies,

860
01:22:35.720 --> 01:22:40.880
Christopher Bird wrote The Secret Life of
Plants, spent a lot of time

861
01:22:40.920 --> 01:22:46.840
with me in the eighties at my
ranch at the Flying Heart Ranch in Arizona,

862
01:22:47.319 --> 01:22:54.520
looking at my techniques and networking for
me to introduce me to others that

863
01:22:54.600 --> 01:23:00.279
might use it. So it's our
I created some gadgets sounds many years ago

864
01:23:00.319 --> 01:23:05.840
that have been marketed as Sonic Bloom
by Dan Carlson Sonic Bloom Company. And

865
01:23:05.920 --> 01:23:12.920
I have a new generation of sounds
that I've been experimenting with on large scale

866
01:23:12.920 --> 01:23:19.800
thousand acres at the time in Indonesia
and in Nebraska. We find sometimes a

867
01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:30.159
twentyfold two thousand percent increase and things
like all like lettuce and radishes and cantalopes.

868
01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:39.039
We've experimented with golden seal echinaesia and
with corn, potatoes and flowers,

869
01:23:38.760 --> 01:23:43.359
and so there might be something to
the mythology that talking to your plants.

870
01:23:43.800 --> 01:23:45.760
Actually there is. In fact,
the MythBusters did a show, show number

871
01:23:45.800 --> 01:23:55.079
fourteen. Really yeah, they built
six greenhouses and had silence man talking acoustic

872
01:23:55.239 --> 01:23:59.520
music, symphony music, blah blah
blah, and it grew bigger. It

873
01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:02.359
couldn't us the myth in In fact, there's ten pages devoted to us in

874
01:24:02.439 --> 01:24:08.039
their well to the process in their
new book called Don't Try This at Home.

875
01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:12.960
And there's been stories about us on
CNN and growing grapes in Italy,

876
01:24:13.159 --> 01:24:17.199
and it's just it's a process of
deciding what's going to be public domain that

877
01:24:17.239 --> 01:24:21.640
we're going to give away, and
patenting the devices and working with organic food

878
01:24:21.680 --> 01:24:29.720
growers. And we've been talking seriously
with the Red Cross about emergency food growing

879
01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:38.600
kits, and we've been going to
FEMA some disaster preparedness training seminars about creating

880
01:24:38.880 --> 01:24:45.399
fast grow food packages for Katrina type
situations and backyard growing. So if people

881
01:24:45.439 --> 01:24:48.520
wanted to read more about that,
where would they find informistion? To email

882
01:24:48.600 --> 01:24:54.680
me about it, because it's a
very precise process. We don't have a

883
01:24:54.720 --> 01:25:00.279
website about it, but my email
is the last four letters of my name,

884
01:25:00.359 --> 01:25:05.199
Jim Bellatoso tso at Cox dot net, Cox dot net. And I

885
01:25:05.199 --> 01:25:09.680
have lots of white papers, and
I have lots of diagrams and how to

886
01:25:09.920 --> 01:25:15.039
things. Because we're waiting for the
patents, which we applied for a few

887
01:25:15.119 --> 01:25:19.960
years ago. There are certain rules
about you know, run silent, run

888
01:25:20.000 --> 01:25:24.479
deep while you're waiting for the patents. But in the meantime, I'm not

889
01:25:24.560 --> 01:25:29.520
really patent driven. I would bounce
it off of a satellite and give it

890
01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:32.399
to the poor people of the world. That's my decision, I guess.

891
01:25:32.439 --> 01:25:38.159
My last question is the UFO question. Yes, since you've been involved with

892
01:25:38.199 --> 01:25:41.840
this for so long and so much
in the media, have you seen a

893
01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:46.239
change in the way media treats the
subject. Yes, media is more open

894
01:25:46.319 --> 01:25:53.279
minded, UFO community is more mean
spirited. Interesting. Yes, there's kind

895
01:25:53.279 --> 01:25:56.640
of been a plot somehow that way, right, So yeah, it is

896
01:25:56.680 --> 01:25:59.880
really interesting. I mean, a
lot of investigators, a lot of chat

897
01:26:00.039 --> 01:26:03.239
there's a lot of people are really
mean spirited. They're not open minded,

898
01:26:03.279 --> 01:26:12.800
They're closed minded and wanting to crush
the entire position that extraterrestrials might be coming

899
01:26:12.840 --> 01:26:17.800
here. And then when open minded
media used the net or other media outlets

900
01:26:17.800 --> 01:26:25.279
to find experts, those experts now
give them negative information when they're open minded

901
01:26:25.319 --> 01:26:29.800
to report whatever is told to them. But I find the general public in

902
01:26:29.840 --> 01:26:33.399
the media is more intelligent than a
large faction of the UFO research community has

903
01:26:33.439 --> 01:26:39.920
become mean spirited. Well that's an
interesting perspective, and I guess, you

904
01:26:39.960 --> 01:26:43.680
know, looking at it, certainly
I can see why he didn't have that

905
01:26:43.760 --> 01:26:47.479
perspective. But open minds will save
the day exactly. You know, we're

906
01:26:47.880 --> 01:26:54.319
a great hope for this field.
M h. Well, thank you so

907
01:26:54.399 --> 01:26:57.119
much for being on the show.
It was a lot of fun, a

908
01:26:57.199 --> 01:27:00.439
lot of great information, and I
think a lot of people will need to

909
01:27:00.479 --> 01:27:03.039
be introduced to some of these old
cases, especially like the Billy Meyer case

910
01:27:03.079 --> 01:27:05.399
and some of the evidence, because, like you said, there's a lot

911
01:27:05.439 --> 01:27:10.039
of million spirit in people out there
who do a lot of talking, but

912
01:27:10.079 --> 01:27:15.560
they don't really present the evidence,
which is the most important aspect as to

913
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:20.640
figuring out whether or not something's real. Yes, so next week is Christmas

914
01:27:20.640 --> 01:27:24.479
Eve, so we're not going to
have the show next week. We're gonna

915
01:27:24.479 --> 01:27:28.560
have to wait a couple of weeks. Everybody have a great Christmas out there,

916
01:27:28.880 --> 01:27:31.000
and then a couple of weeks we'll
have another excellent guest. Hopefully it'll

917
01:27:31.039 --> 01:27:35.800
be someone close enough where I could
get into the studio, but not all

918
01:27:35.960 --> 01:27:42.279
UFO reachers live researchers live in Phoenix. Unfortunately, we don't have the budget

919
01:27:42.279 --> 01:27:45.920
to buy people in on every show
yet. Before we sign off, can

920
01:27:45.960 --> 01:27:48.199
I just say one thing about secret
of Santa Claus. One thing I have

921
01:27:48.319 --> 01:27:57.720
discovered of Santa Claus is really one
of the free wise men still alive today.

922
01:27:58.359 --> 01:28:01.000
You check out that major scene,
you get that interesting look at the

923
01:28:01.079 --> 01:28:05.279
guy with the purple hat on with
the funny hat, Santa Claus. Now,

924
01:28:05.319 --> 01:28:10.159
have you verified a photo of the
main interesting to be real? No,

925
01:28:10.279 --> 01:28:15.279
I have not. It's just a
feeling that I have that if Santa

926
01:28:15.319 --> 01:28:18.600
Claus really exists, he's got some
special power. Yeah, he's got to

927
01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:23.199
be mad and alive this long and
it's that guy standing here in the main

928
01:28:23.239 --> 01:28:27.840
Testine and he still brings presents to
people that are good. Well, now

929
01:28:27.880 --> 01:28:30.600
I'm gonna have to take something mean. I'm skeptical about this, while saying

930
01:28:30.640 --> 01:28:34.000
I think, okay, okay,
go ahead and ding them open mind and

931
01:28:34.079 --> 01:28:40.520
we can be mean about Santa I
would want to ty it. Yeah,

932
01:28:40.760 --> 01:28:43.399
all right, Well, Santa Claus, if you're out there, I was

933
01:28:43.479 --> 01:28:46.600
just kidding. And you know,
I don't know what a UFO is.

934
01:28:46.600 --> 01:28:54.079
What I want for Christmas some sort
of cool sports model beamship like the Billy

935
01:28:54.159 --> 01:28:58.479
Meyer Pladiums drive. All right,
thanks everybody, We will talk to you

936
01:28:58.520 --> 01:29:05.880
in a couple of weeks. Buses
b buses, boo