Love Talk Radio. Welcome to Open Minds Radio with your host ale Of Hondro
Rojash. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, it is Alejandro pi Rojas and we
have a great show today. We've have another in studio guest, which is
always fun because then I'm not as lonely in here, and we just luckily
have some great researchers and people out here in Phoenix, so we have enough
people to come out here. Today. We have Jim Delo Toso and of
course people in the area are definitely going to know that name, and if
you've watched UFO documentaries then I'm sure you're going to know as well, because
he's in a lot of them. Does a lot of photo analysis. Phoenix
Lights of course, with a big deal out here and around the world,
and Jim was pretty much the lead photo and analyst there. You saw him
on almost every Phoenix Lights story. So we'll talk about that. Some people
don't know that he looked into the Billy Meyers pictures as well, so we'll
talk a lot about all of that, and it's going to be a lot
of fun. But let's let's get into the news so we can get to
some of that cool stuff in the news this week without a lot of interesting
things. One of them Russia Today, is a website that covers lots of
Russian news, and there's some people who videotaped a large pyramid UFO over Kremlin,
so people are still looking into this. The police are interesting enough in
the area. Didn't have any comments, but Russia Today you can see a
couple stories, and of course all of these news stories are linked at openminds
dot tv right there on the front page under our daily UFO headlines, and
you'll be able to watch those videos. So very cool. And I know
there's a couple more videos that showed up on YouTube today that are kind of
the full length of that video, and we'll be getting a hold of us
and posting those as soon as possible, probably by the end of the day
or in the morning as well. So that was a really cool one.
Also, as usual, lots of news in the UK. It's actually slowed
down a little bit that he did have, you know, half a dozen
stories almost every day about UFOs in the UK for a while there when the
mod was releasing some of their files. It slowed down a little bit.
But a gentleman by the name of Richard Hall, who's a researcher out there.
His website is richplanet dot net. He did a couple cool things this
week. First of all, David Cameron, it's the head of the Conservative
Party out there. He went to one of his events and he asked them
about UFOs and luckily this was all recorded, recorded and he was able to
put this on his website. And David Cameron kind of made a joke.
You know, everybody's got to have their pat UFO joke, and he's got
to say, well, I would think the other party is from a different
planet if I didn't know any better, so, you know, the typical
politician joke. But then he apologized for joking around and says, you know,
I take everything serious and I'm all for openness and transparency in government.
So if I found anything out, I'd let the people know, so kind
of another pat answer. But it's just cool. It's always exciting when people
are brave enough to ask, because the more this happens, I think it
shows that, you know, this really is on people's minds. People are
very interested in what's going on. We talked about last week with Jeff Peckman
starting his ballot Initiative in Denver and how some of those stories had pools which
showed that people are really in favor of finding out more about UF and extra
terrestrials. So another thing that rich Richard Hall did is a documentary called Hidden
Truth, and it's on crop circles. And in this documentary he's pretty much
concluding that he thinks that m I five, which is pretty much the British
Intelligence Agency. In fact am I extends for military intelligence. The MI five
is really who, you know, James Bond would have worked for if he
was a real dude. But they, he has concluded, had had some
involvement with the faking of crop circles. We know there are a lot of
people who make crop circles for artistic reasons and for fun, and there's a
website out there crop circle Makers, and they're pretty much the main crop circle
makers, at least human wise, the known crop circles that we know are
being made by humans. And they have a website and they're very active,
and he kind of talks about their funding, how they're very well funded and
they have all these anonymous sources for their funding, so some interesting conclusions.
He also interviews Colin Andrews on that who's a famous crop circle researcher out there.
And Colin Andrews actually has a story and kind of in appreciation for this
documentary on his website, he released the name of a CIA agent he's talked
about in the past, and this CIA agent approached him and tried to recruit
him. Essentially almost said you're recruited, you're working for us now, and
Colin said, I don't think so, mich Kel. I always do the
British accents for the British people, but thank you. But Colin Andrews named
finally for the first time, this CIA agent and he said his name was
Sandy Reid r E I D. So we'll all have to look into this
character and find out about his past. So those are some of the interesting
stories in the UK. One more that came out was in The Sun,
that's the big tabloid. They're also a paper that's taken seriously, even though
they have like the page five girls, which are the bikini girls and bikinis
are optional. Maxwell's paper. No, I don't know who has the paper,
but it's very big and it is, you know, one of the
biggest papers out there. Even though it is tabloid and some of the serious
news stories are broken there, but they have amazing UFO pictures of two thousand
and nine up there, so you can go check that out. Remember this
is all also on Openminds dot tv, so that's the UK. Moving back
to the States, there's been some articles about some information some gentleman has sent
out there, and one of the stories is called why aren't you building your
own UFO yet? And that's on I own nine to site. You might
know IO nine. They're kind of a techie underground type of website, so
if you're into technical stuff and the latest and greatest gadgets and sci fi,
you'll see that kind of stuff there. But they posted a story about this
guy who sent out a press release and he's trying to get some money from
Australia actually also but he lists he's got thousands of pages on his website and
you can go look at this stuff for free, and it shows all of
the different patents going back to the fifties that introduces or has technology relates to
technology similar to what people are seeing when they describe UFOs. So that's some
interesting information. In fact, he's pretty much saying with the information on the
website. Here you can build your own UFO, and there's several different types.
It's not just kind of electromagnetism, but it's several different ways that people
are tapping into these. He's not calling it anti gravity, but ways to
limit the gravity that make the devices fly. So some of the patents he
talks about our worst technologies that came from Nikola Tesla and the brown b filled
effect you might be familiar with. So you'll have to check this out,
especially if you're a tech type person. That's really interesting. If you do
build your own UFO, please get a hold of us here at open Minds
and we'll give your address. You can fly on over. We'll make a
space for you in our parking lot and we'd love to see it. Maybe
we'll even pay you to put an open mind flows go on the side of
it flying around downtown. So that's some cool news. This is really weird
too. A few stories on UFO's landing and extraterrestrials coming out of them.
In fact, the UFO examiner who writes about Moofon talked about a couple of
moove on reports that they got from Texas and both of these reports were of
UFOs landing and creatures coming out of these uf It's our favorite kind creatures.
Yeah sure, yeah, that's much more exciting. I'm really bored with just
the you know, the UFOs flying around. You know, people have sightings.
That's great, even you know, I want to see one up close.
I want to have someone fly one over that I can ride and we
can put our logo on. Or I want to see one land with a
strange creatures that come out so we could say hi. And I don't want
the abduction type scenario to happen, you know, I no thanks some prog
or anything, but I'm happy to talk with them. But another one of
these cases was posted by the People magazine Daily and they talked about a UFO
landing in Barstow, California. So maybe we're at the next stage where they're
going to start landing and saying hi, and we can invite them over for
dinner. Hopefully they were. I don't know. I was reading on some
website that they assumed that they jetsted blood plasma through their skin. I don't
think that's the case. That would be awful, but I hope they're vegetarians.
I know that this guy right here, yes, this little creature we
have that it's an iargan. I've talked about it before one of Wendell Stevens'
cases, and that they said they were vegetarians. Good for them. Yeah,
I think it's the right way to go. All right. So there's
our news for the week. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us
for that. Go to Open Minds to that TV and on the front page
you'll see more about that. I should cover at least a couple of our
cool stories we've posted here too, and that would be from Philip Mantle.
He wrote us a story of UK Royal Marines who had a sighting in nineteen
seventy one and they reported it. In fact, the guy who wrote it
talked about his boss essentially having him collect all the photos and reports on it
and they were sent into the Home Office or wherever the UK military send that
stuff. But you know, the MOD has been releasing UFO files and these
haven't shown up in those files. So why not If the UK government is
truly releasing everything they know about UFO, why aren't they releasing this information?
In fact, Nick Pope, we did the story last week about how the
UK the mod said, don't call us anymore if you have a UFO siding.
We don't want to hear it. We're closing down our hotlines. So
we got a response from Nick Pope and asked him what he thought, and
he said, well, even though officially maybe they're not collecting reports, you
know, someone's got to be collecting them, maybe it's not an official capacity.
So that's the newest story we've got out. And if you've been reading
the alien autopsy stories that Marizio has been putting out, and we're going to
have number three posted by the end of the day. This one is a
couple of corners in Italy who actually I think they worked for the Vatican or
with them. I mean, they're very well known corners and they watched the
video with Mauricio and they had some comments to make until we're posting all of
their comments. And this has been a highly controversial, of course case an
issue, and you, my guests for today, Jim, are no stranger
to highly controversial cases. Out of you, that's right. I wear my
controversial suits whenever possible. Yep, there you are. Oh, so let's
get into it. Thanks for joining us. Here today, happy to be
here, thank you. And I wanted to start off with just kind of
going back to where you were in life when you started looking into UFOs and
why you decided to tackle that. That was in the seventies and I was
in the business of audio and video. I had a company that rented measurement
equipment, signal processing equipment, solo scopes, real time analyzers, and had
that for a couple of years in the mid seventies, and then I started
one of the country's leading rock and roll touring companies, Sound and Lights trucks,
touring around doing that, but you don't tour in the winter, and
we were doing some pretty well known bands Three Dog Night, Moody Blues,
and many others, and you don't tour in the winter. You look for
other things to do. And with the equipment that we had that included generators
in that measurement equipment and lighting equipment. We worked in the film industry in
Arizona became our winter headquarters because it was a winter headquarters for b movies.
So in the winter of eineteen seventy eight, I met Socrates ballas he was
producing a movie on the shroud of Turin and it is the one that's out
that's narrated by Richard Burton. And when they were in pre production, they
were looking for someone who could make some interface equipment so that the scientific iridium
equipment could convert those images and scientific measurements to film. We're working on that
project that winter, and Socrates Ballas introduced us to another filmmaker named John Stephanelli.
John Stephanelli was working with APRO in Tucson to develop a method for analyzing
pictures. So John Stefanelli introduced us to Jim Lorenzen and Wendell Stevens to see
if because of our approach in the way that we have worked on his project,
that perhaps we would develop a method for appro on analysis of UFO pictures.
And I agreed to do that since it would take about a year,
I said to find out the processes, the equipment, the manufacturers, the
software, the techniques that would be a repeatable method to do that an appro
Just so people know, it was the association of I don't know, aerial
phenomena Research Organizations. Yes, and at that time it was a worldwide organization
with representatives from most every country in the world. Then it was an academic
organization what Nightcap, APRO and KUKO someone started by Heinech. We're pretty much
the big ones to begin with, Yes, before they all kind of faded
out and move one became the foretfront. Yes. I traveled with Wendell Stevens
occasionally that year to go to pig image processing trade shows and the goal was
to find the equipment manufacturers, find out from the manufacturers who owned their equipment
that we could go to as service providers in order to determine a repeatable method,
create a method, and what are the issues to analyze pictures of unknown
objects? What's their size, how far away from the camera are they?
Have they been superimposed? Are they a scale model? And all the issues
that would be related to that. And I published a paper on that,
a white paper on that process in nineteen seventy nine at the annual APRO conference
that year. Subsequently, I was asked if we would analyze forty pictures out
of apro's collection, which included the billion Meyer pictures. What was the feeling
of the APRO people back then about the million Myer photos. They had no
position on it. It was, you know, no position that I could
interpret my sense of it was that they had included some known models in the
batch of forty in order to determine the success of the testing process, and
at that time the process was a sequence of different labs to go to.
There wasn't a place other than ground saucer Watch that tested UFO pictures. And
the factground saucer Watch went to a particular manufacturer and did it there. We
went to that facility also, and my goal was to develop a repeatable process
and be done with it. But for the two years that I was supervising
that process, the labs all signed and we had them sign non disclosure agreements,
which means we won't talk about the fact that we're coming here, and
you won't talk about the fact that you even know us. So how did
you feel about getting involved with all of this at this point? Well,
you know, I had two hats that I wore. One was the rock
and roll business, and which is a business. It's a lot of fun,
but it is a business. And the other was my scientific measurement business,
which was a precise and confidential business. So the combination of the two,
I felt like the Blue his brothers on a mission from God to Uh
to do some private analysis. So it was it was so you weren't apposed
to it. I wasn't opposed to it, but it was pro bono.
There was no one to pay me to do it, nor did I ever
ask for anyone to pay me to do it. And some of the cases
were very costly once I got involved with it, with money out of pocket,
which a lot of people wouldn't know. You know how much it really
cost to send a few people running around doing things, but it would be
tens of thousands of dollars. Fortunately I had cash flow from from the music
business in order to do that. Yes, it's interesting too because Marizio was
a rock and roll writer to begin with Andy Talbot, who I had on
it was very scientific minded. Now you still work as a rock and roll
producer. So well, that's it. From rock and roll, the UF
those and back right, and the business continued successfully for many years, and
we added other divisions. We added a computer graphics and Animation Service Bureau in
the late eighties and we set up shop inside of Arizona State University at the
Computer Institute, which I was one of the founders of. So out there
in the real world, our work was very well known, was given the
high levels of scientific credibility. Meanwhile, over in the UFO community, we
were the target for hand grenades. So I was always reticent to go over
into the UFO community and spend a lot of time there explaining what we were
doing, because very few people ever wanted to see the scientific reports or the
analysis or the techniques of the way we did it, which was based on
for ends methods. I guess it's kind of like when you're driving your car.
Like for me, I'm not a mechanical type of person. I don't
want to know what's going on under the hood. Yes, as long as
it's working. So probably a lot of people are like that. I know
in this field, a lot of people are like, tell me if it's
real or not. I don't know the technical details about what you're doing with
that, but I just want to know if it's really Yes. But in
reality, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing it because there's a
lot of armchair skeptics. You're going to say, yeah, what about this,
what about that? And it can take many, many hours to analyze
one photograph, particularly in the seventies and eighties when equipment was limited a scanner.
A scanner was eighty thousand dollars. Wow. Then the resolution, the
software, the techniques of doing it were costly. But the issues, the
issues, the fundamental wish use then and now we're still the same. How
big is it? How far away is it? You know? Is it
a dust particle, is it a flare? Is it a cloud? Is
it an airplane light? And what are the characteristics to do that? So
we built an extensive database of known objects, and when we have unknowns,
we extract the data from the unknown, compare it to the database of knowns,
try to get a match. Like fingerprints, you have a database of
millions of fingerprints that are known. You get a fingerprint that's unknown. You
extract the data as best you can for the fingerprint that's that's left, and
try to get a match. If you don't get a match, well it's
an unknown guy. If you don't get a match in analyzing the photographs,
it's an unknown. Unknown unknown doesn't mean it's an alien's basecraft, means that
we don't have a match in the database. So with the unknowns, how
often were you finding lots of knowns with the apro material? Well, you
know, I don't know how to classify that as a lot of nons.
I mean, I would get knowns, I would get unknowns, would I
would get I guess that you were finding with those in the apro forty,
I would say there was twenty that were unknown, ten that were or so
that were airplanes or light reflections. That was a key thing to determine the
software, to determine if an object is light emitting or light reflecting gets round?
Okay, is it a disc or is it an orb? Does it
have curvature to it? Or is it you know, I'm saying, is
it a coin or is it a ball? Is it a disc? Or
is it orb? And I mean many, many, many issues. And
I went to lots of experts, lots and lots of experts, including Michael
Maelan, who years later is known as Richard Hoagland's nemesis. But at the
time, Michael Maelan was working at jeff Propulsion Laboratory and working at Arizona State
University and was quite open minded about testing the Billy Meyer photographs interesting and he
found no evidence of a hoax. He couldn't find any evidence that it was
a small model. And that's really what we are looking for then is this
a small model and what are the characteristics? And since we were looking at
film, one of the things was if it was superimposed, that we would
look for multiple grain patterns, and the multiple grain patterns show up in the
image area, but would be different in the sprocket areas. You know where
the sprocket holes are in the film. Well, if you're superimposing images,
you'll get two grain patterns in the in the square imagery in the middle,
but out in the sprocket area, which we were also analyzing, we would
we would have other grain issues grained to look at. So in the billy
Meyer pictures that we looked at, second and third generation film is useful.
Is useful because we then have more grain patterns to look at to be able
to see if there's more grain patterns in the image area than there is in
the sprocket area. And never found that in the in the billy Meyer case.
And as the years went on, a lot of hearsay about a lot
of hearsay about so and so tested it and found it to be a hoax.
No white paper's ever written, but a lot of emotional power behind the
skeptics saying, well, we proved it to be a hoax. Well,
where how what showed me the testing? Well, and that's how I feel
about billy Meyer. You know everybody, it's such a heated, controversial debate.
Yes, and I agree with you that a lot of people will say
that's easy to do, I can do it. But nobody's without photoshop has
demonstrated that they can do it or written up how they have discovered these things
to be hoax. It's just like you're saying, I mean, if someone
was able to write something up, do an analysis, show us with the
technology they had back at the time, how it could be done, that
would be something different. But to my knowledge, and I've everywhere I've looked,
even talking to the skeptics, nobody's done that. The biggest miss there
was someone just like last year, who was reproducing some billy Meyer photos but
he was using photoshop, yes, and he was saying, look there,
I'll fix I can do this to a photoshop now, Well, photoshop didn't
exist in the seventies. Boll I took those pictures. I'm not an advocate
or a promoter of the billy Meyer case. I do analysis, and I
stand by my work. Of not being able to find evidence of a hoax
or going to match doesn't mean that I'm authenticating the fact that it's an alien
spacecraft. But out there and the rest of the world the techniques that I
use. I've been an expert witness in murder cases in court analyzing video night
time case where there's an unclear person committing a crime and who is that person?
So in a court of law, I can testify in a murder case
where someone's life is at stake also and consider an expert witness in that.
But over in the UFO arena target for hand grenades, and that just goes
along with it. I mean, that's that's part of it. It used
to bother me a lot, doesn't bother me anymore. It bothers me when
my daughter who's ten, looks up Daddy on the Internet and finds, Daddy,
are you really a con man? You no, Savannah. People can
write anything they want. The real important thing about any case is to study
the evidence available and prepare it as though it's going to be admissible in a
case in the court case as evidence. And to that degree, I decided
many many years ago to follow forensic standards, and there's there's many issues.
You know, people flip flop all the time, but well you can't.
You can't test anything but the original or the second generation or has to be
film. Hey, you do the best that you can with which you have
and what's made available. And you can test second generation, you can test
third generation. Now, have you had the opportunity to test the originals on
the Myer case? Four four pieces of film that were the piece of film
that were in his camera. Okay, and and this is is this the
motion film or the stills? Okay? This is stills? And found no
evidence of a hoax, found no sequence processes by which he could do it
with the technologies available. And our team Tom Welch and Lee Elders went to
the local post office, went to the local drug store, went to the
places where Billy goes to take his film and get it processed. And how
does he do it? Well, he comes in with his camera and opens
it up on my desk and gets an envelope and puts it in and hand
it to me. And I've processed the film and bring it back and hand
it to him. There's the pictures, so he's not operating an optical lab,
and we went to see Wally Gentleman, who was one of the better
known model makers in Hollywood, worked at Lynnwood Dune's world famous Film Effects of
Hollywood company. They did films such as two thousand and one, and Lynwood
had done the original King Kong and they at that point had accumulated a lot
of history and a lot of expertise and optical effects, and we had Wally
Gentleman analyzed how he thought what would it take in order to recreate that and
two thousand and one was ground breaking for its time. It's amazing to look
at that movie and look at Star Trek, the original series, and see
this huge gap between the quality in the fact. And unbeknownst to me,
Wendel stevens Lee Elders and Tom Welch had Wally Gentleman make a scale model,
took it to Switzerland, hung it on a fish line at a twenty inch
diameter scale model, and Billy Meyer and all of them took photographs of it
and then brought the photographs back to me in Arizona to analyze. And I
could tell within minutes in my analysis technique, this is about nineteen eighty one.
What are some of the telltale signs that you're able to identify when it's
a small object. Yeah, it's kind of what a painter does. An
oil painter is going to paint a portrait, and the painters decided to have
in the picture the moon, and then the painting it's four inches in diameter
and a basketball right beside it, and it's going to be painted photorealistically so
that it really does look like you're standing looking at the moon. But on
the painting it's four inches in diameter and a basketball that's bouncing and coming towards
you, and it's four inches in diameter, But your eye needs to be
able to say, this is a basketball that's ten inches in diameter coming at
me, and this is the moon in a great distance. How does the
painter do that? If you think about a paint by number kit where it
looks like a coloring book and its line drawings, the moon, a large
object will have more lines of longitude and latitude in that four inch diameter object.
We might have fifty lines vertical and fifty lines horizontal. That we would
then use our paint by number kit and paint it to give it that contour
the basketball, we might have ten lines of longitude and latitude, so it's
contour. The number of shades that it takes to make it be a parent
is going to be reduced. Okay. Second, a large object with a
light shining on it, the painter is going to have a small area be
reflecting the light. The number of sections on a small object. The sun,
for example, is going to light up the entire basketball or a small
object. If we have a dome, a space dome like the Seattle Dome,
you know, the sun on that is just going to be a little
glint on top of it. Now, that's the extremes of proportion. But
if something is reflecting light, the ratio of the reflecting area that's bright to
the entire surface is going to be. There's more light on a small object
than there isn't a large object. So we've got the number of lines of
contour, we've got the total surface area that is reflecting light, and the
properties of the edges. Everything in real life is in focus, but as
soon as our eyes are a camera lens looks at it, the properties of
the edges change because of depth of field of the lens, the distance it
is closer and further away. So I developed a technique called focus field indexing,
similar to the way that sell animation at Disney with painted glass that here's
the mountains, here's the hills, here's the trees, here's the shrubs,
all coming forward, and the properties of the edges are different on all of
those. Right. So we've taken a picture and we analyze the edges of
hundreds of edges in the picture. Some of them we may be able to
go and measure that tree. How wide does the trunk of that tree?
How far away was it? Or this is an unknown distance, but we
do know that this is a Washington rose. So we can put in known
properties to objects that we can identify, and then take all the objects that
have similar edges, and they're going to be in the same plane, the
same index, the same distance away. Although this one's way over on the
right hand side, and its edge index might be let's say four pixels wide.
Way over on the left hand side is a fence post, and it's
four So that tree and that fence post, even though they're in totally different
areas of the picture, would be index to be the same distance away.
Gotcha, focus field indexing to be able to determine the distance away then object
is by the properties of the edges, similar to the way that the optics
in a cruise missile can look and say, oh, that's the moon.
It's okay, keep going that away. Oops, there's a basketball coming towards
us. Let's move a little bit right. And those three principles the number
of shades of color in the contour. If you look at this coffee cut,
it's all really black, but because of the lighting, it looks like
different shades of black, different shades of gray or green or blue or whatever.
So paint by number, kit, it's coffee boiling. If we're gonna
do a paint by number, KIT, I mean we wanted to show that
it was contoured. Whether it was a big object or a little object,
it would be there's the shade of green, then the next shade of green,
the next okay. So uh. That's one of the ways to be
able to gather data about whether an object is large or small. It's the
properties of the edges, the distribution of reflected light on the object, and
the number of intersecting longitude and latitude lines in the arm makes sense. It's
smirking because it's all blank on my cap be kept except of the cool Open
Minds TV beautiful Open Minds blue loads. Yeah, you can go get these
coffy cups on the website. You can. People can act something for sale.
You sell hats and shirts and things too. Yeah, exactly, key
shirts out, no hatch yet. And then of the cool shirt like I
got it? Do you like my Melissa efforts? Show? That is pretty
cool? It's funny though, it's interesting all the rock connections, which is
cool. See that means it's cool, dudes. Stan Friedman was able to
show that smart people get involved with UFOs. All you guys who came from
the rock industry show the cool people. So it's the cool and the smart
people. Yes. In the rock industry, though we were known as very
high tech people, we were not and also ran in the in the industry,
we were one of the better knowns and uh respected touring companies to really
complex shows. Well, on the Billy Meyer case, it's interesting that Mailing
was interested in this stuff. He's pretty He's a guy for people who don't
know who runs the jet propulsion laboratory. And some people don't know that a
lot of these satellites that go up. It's not NASA who owns the picture.
It's a GPL, the Jet Propulsion Laboratories. And that's why Richard Hopan
fights with him because that Richard Hopeland's essentially got him to say, Hey,
you're going to get whatever pictures I give you in whatever shape I decide to
give them to you, So deal with them. Because Hopland's accuse them of
hiding picture or few people know that Michael Malan worked on the Billy Markets.
Yeah, that's really interesting. The only place that's published is in the book
White Years. There's a section in there that talks about Michael mail and analyzing
pictures. If you author the book went and interviewed Michael Mallan, weld you
really do it? And did you find any evidence of a hoax? And
Allan, why did you do it? What did he say? Well,
he said he found no evidence of a hoax. He didn't say there was
an extra Trust spacecraft, so he found no evidence of it being made by
Billy Meyer or humans. I saw him do a talk in Denver about five
or six years ago, because we have a Mars research thing at our museum
in Denver, and he was saying some pretty groundbreaking things for that time.
He was before NASA wanted to really admit that there was an evidence of an
atmosphere on Mars, and he was saying, oh, yeah, there had
to be tropical there had to be oceans because all of the sand and everything
it had to have been eroded down from vast amounts of waters, which was
pretty interesting. But of course he has those arguments with Mayland. Were there
other people involved with the billy Meyer case that I know back then? You
know, of course, yeah, that were shocking that people don't know about,
you know, higher level well most people know of course, Lingle Stevens,
Yeah, and Lee and Britt Elders and Tom Welch. Lee and Brett
owned Intercept Company, which was a highly regarded private countermeasure company. And Tom
Welch, whose father James Welch, was high level FBI. Oh yeah,
and he was very intrigued by the case. Well, he was involved with
on a daily basis for four or five years. Tom Welch was And we
went to a lot of places to have the billy Meyer case analyzed. Marcel
Vogel at IBM, we went to we went to s A C Company,
We went to the Anti Submarine Warfare Center, We went to TRW, We
went to Sandy Laboratories, we went to and these were all places that aided
in the investigation. These were there were two ways it was done. One
it was people that had an interest in the topic and were able to moonlight,
were able to use, under appropriate conditions, the equipment at their facility
to analyze the pictures or the metal samples. Ah, the metal samples,
regardless of all the huha about the Billy Meyer photographs, analyzing the metal samples
which was done by Marcel Vogel, and I think a number of times he
had Jim Hirtack jj Hrtack with him when the analysis was being done, and
that is much more compelling to me. The analysis that was done by Marcel
Vogel of the metal samples. Well, let's get into that. What were
the metal samples, how were they supposedly allegedly retrieved him? And what was
fam They were allegedly handed to Billy Meyer by one of the extraterrestrials the box
one night, and Billy gave them to the group Lee Tom britt Wendell the
following day. And they were coming back to the United States they got back
to the United States and one of the first things that we did they brought
them to me and I laid them out on the floor. I had a
studio at the time of at Scottsville Air Park, and we took all the
samples and laid them out. They were rocks, they were black sand looking,
they were they were silver soder looking. None of it looked exotic.
There were four stages of their materials. There was an explanation from them to
Billy, to the group, to me on how they were made, what
they did, How were these forest ages all about. We get to that
in a minute. We laid them all out, we inventoried them, and
then we set out to decide, well, how are we going to have
them tested. Well, we need to put in some controls of things that
we know what they are. Hey, this looks like silver soder. Let's
put in some real silver soder. This looks like black sand, Let's put
in some other black sand. And we created a little kit. First kit
went to doctor Walter or Weird material scientists at University of Arizona. He did
his series of tests. In fact one one package was sent to Omni Magazine.
This is when we were young and foolish, and one package was sent
there, one package went to MIT, and one package. After careful study
I analyz, I determined that this guy, I'm Marcel Vogel, who was
a scientist at IBM and was one of the founding members of the Mendala Society
and the Noetics Sciences Foundation, would be a good person to go to.
So we went to him and he used his advanced microscope lab to analyze the
different materials. Now, because we had put controls in sample one B and
you know, nine C whatever, we knew what the numbers referred to,
right, so we expected that this sample would be silver solder, this sample
would be you know, a piece of granite. But to the samples in
particular were bizarre to Marcel Vogel and to all of us, because in his
destructive and non destructive testing, he found that in this one particular sample that
it showed traces of atomic elements one through fifty nine, half of the periodic
chart, all in one substance, All in one substance. Now that that
includes noble gases that don't combine with anything, and to find all of those
elements in one substance was completely startling to Marcel. The second thing when he
polished it and looked at it under a scanning electron microscope, found that there
were organic materials unburned nestled right up against materials that were melted, like thulium
and platinum that melted twenty six hundred degrees, with little pieces of fern,
organic materials, biofringent materials interlaced with high temperature metals. And what did this
material look like to the eye was a white rock. It looked like a
glump of sot of melted silver, soid okay, a glump and it was
sliced and then polished, and he couldn't explain it. He couldn't explain how
it could be made. He couldn't make it. And he was one of
the key members of the team at IBM that had developed some things like color
television, phosphors, magnetic floppy disc emulsion, advanced materials for the time.
And he gave us a two hour videotape report. So we still have of
course looking at look with the images through the microscope, and what he was
saying, look, I can't imagine how this would be made, or where
it would come from, or how it would be done, and with all
the controversy that was going on in the pictures and a lot of mean spirited
people what they had to say about the Myer case, uh, it was
decided that the UFO community was not the place to platform the findings on a
daily or regular basis. There would be some books published and it would be
released to the UFO community and the mass population at the same time. That
was it. There was no obligation to the UFO community to show anything to
them because there was not a sense of science peer review dignity. There wasn't.
There wasn't, and I'm sorry to say to this day pretty much still
isn't and it's even worse. Well, and I know what you mean,
And really I think whenever I think towards this field, it's important to think
bigger than an outside of just the small UFO community, because really that's not
who we're talking to anyway. We want to convince and show the conventional academics
out there that there's some credible stuff then that it's worth spending their time looking
at some of this. Yes, so I would understand why you would want
to do that, and I think that's a better avenue. And there's also
one other thing to consider, and that is if extraterrestrials come here and they
can communicate with us that if extraterrestrials didn't want there to be a cover up,
there wouldn't be one, gotcha that they allow it to happen. In
fact, they may encourage it to happen. And then it becomes an analysis
of why do they think like that. Is it something sinister? Are they
going to cook us and eat us later? Or do they have some purpose
in their remaining separate, because maybe they want to see how we're going to
go with our own free will and our own destiny. Because in the meantime
they behave like a covert operation. They're here, they're gone, they're there,
they're not pass through walls. Kidnap people, abduction, kidnapping, it's
against you can't do that. That's illegal. You go to jail for life
if you kidnap people. And extraterrestrials seem to do it it will Now is
that for some positive reason that we don't really understand. Is there some some
think something that we have that they're really interested in. So the analysis of
the pictures and the UFO cases of the hundreds and hundred cases of analyzed pictures.
It became more important for me to do it, for for me to
understand what was going on, not for me to be a conduit. Every
time I had something to turn around shouted out there to the world or to
the media, because there was not very much positive that was going to come
of it. People would say mean things, lies, create problems, which
I had to deal with a lot over the years, well, especially people
like Billy Myer, especially the experiencers or the epdic keys that they often such
as Travis Walton or even some of Robbie Williams was saying this this week because
the star who came out to say he believes in UFOs. They start to
say, I wish I never would have opened my mouth and even gone there
because people just get too crazy about it, or mean, do you have
that feeling at all? Oh, yes, of course, really well,
I mean there have been things said about me by a particular group going back
many many years that there's no foundation in fact at all, but because of
their vocal approach. Cayl Korff, one in particular that said and wrote things
about me and other UFO investigators, had no basis in fact or truth at
all, whatsoever became viewed as fact by the UFO community and the general public.
Then, even though cal Korff has been summarily discredited, now no one
has gone back and undone the damage that he did, and people most of
what people believe about the Billy Myer case is based on things that cal Korff
claims he discovered or he did or he said with people now have found out
that it was all lies. He didn't have any scientific ability at all,
he didn't have any team, he didn't he wasn't working at all these places
doing these things. But people say that the Billy Meyer case is not true
generally because of what kl Korf said, and that the messengers of the Billy
Meyer case of the last few years have been UFO merchants. I mean,
they're selling stuff, CDs, public lectures, whatever, for the purpose of
making a living. And that's it. I mean, And it's okay to
make a living in things in the paranormal if you're making a living distributing the
truth, the facts, but distributing information just based on whatever or somebody says
or thinks that moment and packaging it up and rolling it out there so that
you can, like a carnival hutster collect the money. Has that would insult
to injury on the Billy Meyer case and other quality cases where people throw out
the baby with the bathwater. That's what's easier to be a debunker or skeptic,
it would seem, because there are a lot of people who it's too
difficult to think of the implications of what some of these findings are. It's
easier just to be able to bury your head in the sand, and the
media love stitch up on that. A lot of people still believe that crop
circles are all made by these two old guys that after they're drinking at the
pub, they're going out and making all these huge crop circles overnight and all
over the world. Or you know, there's a number of other stories like
that. But that's the easy way out, it would seem, so unfortunately
a lot of people take the easy road. Yeah, who else will we
pick on? Well, we don't know. One of the questions. I
think one of the areas maybe we should move into remaining time is into the
Phoenix Heights, because of course that was a big deal and really which was
great. You know, the media had you all over the place to talk
about the lights and your analysis on the lights. So where were you when
this happened and how did you find out about all of them? Well,
it happened in Phoenix, and I live in Phoenix. And the night of
the Phoenix Light, did you see him? No? I did not.
I was hosting Stephen Greer editing in my facility. I was donating time,
and I had a policy pretty much of if someone asked me in the right
way, I would let them use the facility for editing or analysis without charge.
And tho he was editing at the time those great disclosure witness testimony DVDs
that that are out right or yeah, that's what he was editing. That's
what he said he was editing. Oh no, it wasn't nutty stuff,
was it. No, it wasn't that. It was just I don't want
to get into it right now. But frequently I found what Stephen Queer said
he was doing to be at variance of what he was really doing. And
anyhow, we were in the facility and the thing, and of course the
phones all went to the switchboard that night. I didn't find out about the
Phoenix Lights events until the following morning when some local news stations contacted me Channel
ten and Channel three in Phoenix. For the years before the Phoenix Lights,
because I'm here in town, they would frequently have me on local TV,
you know, analyzing different things that happened. So I took a look at
him, you know, the following day, and then it just began to
accumulate the number of press people that were coming and the number of witness reports,
and how we were going to get at what was happening was to create
some quote town hall meetings where we had at least half a dozen of them
with one hundred or more witnesses all at the same time. That's what's amazing
that I think even people to this day, at least throughout the rest of
the country, don't realize how many witnesses there were. There were possibly probably
thousands, probably thousands. I know Barwood, the councilwoman, she said she
talked to over a thousand peoples herself. Yes, and there was no video
evidence up until the ten o'clock event, which was what we were trying to
find. We were having a town hall meetings so we could find someone anyone
that had taken pictures or shot video before the ten o'clock events, but the
first sightings, you know, I started about seven thirty. The Whites moved
over the entire state diagonally from the Sedona area through Phoenix down to Tucson,
turnaround, came back, and then left the state about ten thirty. I
don't think cell phones were there even many cell phones then. Well, yeah
there were cell phones, but I guess not. They took pictures, yeah,
certainly not the first picture. Yeah, right, it's funny to think
about how quickly the technology has changed and advanced. But so that you didn't
how did the video come about? Then? I think they had it early
on, at least some video, right, Oh they did? You know?
The television stations had three different sets of video the following day and brought
them down and then the day after that. A woman that wanted to remain
anonymous because of her her job, doctor Lynn KEYTI. For years we referred
to her as doctor X. Oh. Yeah, sure, she wanted she
didn't want to be on the news. She wantedone to know. She had
video and film, thirty five millimeter film. So we were analyzing a thirty
five millimeter film. We couldn't tell you when we had it interesting And then
she also though was great about her she had taken some month prior of a
similar Yes, yes, and I put three or four of my staff people
on it of a few hours a day. We put a lot of time
and attention into it. Well, we were running a service bureau at the
time, Village laps as a service bureau doing image processing software for pretty large
companies. In fact, we are working on some novel software that at the
time a number of reporters said did not exist, that is now standard at
the FBI and Department of Justice and other forensic analysis and its spectrum analysis software.
But at the time the reporters who were talking to us about it went
and talked to a couple of astronomers who said, there's no such thing as
spectrum analysis of videotape. It's a hoax, it's a fraud. And when
three years later that software became published by I Tripoli and Siggraph and is now
even on the FBI Department of Justice website as the standard standard in image analysis.
No one in the UFO community that called me a why and sack of
shit? Oh I mean, oh no, I have ruined the show.
It was much even stronger than that. Then no one comes forward and says,
oh, we're so sorry that we dismissed everything that you were doing.
Oh yes, now we see that it's a standard by the FBI and others,
and you just have to let it go. And this software that was
able to look at the different types of lights and determine kind of what they
were at disource, well it looks at different lights. It's pretty pretty basic.
I mean, for anyone that even uses Photoshop or any any image painting
program, let alone an image analysis program. You know that light is broken
up into red, green, and blue. Any pixel on the screen is
defined by its red, green and blue content RGP on a scale usually from
zero to two fifty six of each red, green and blue. So if
you analyze a light, you get its red, green and blue content,
it's RGB value as a histogram, as a color spectrum. You analyze the
color spectrum in lights and can compare this white light to that white light to
that white light and see if they are all matching identical, and also see
if they're stable or flickering or moving or a number of different properties. It's
all pretty much standard as the only really way that you can do it.
Is it precise enough to tell like an airplane from a helicopter, provided you
have that airplane light already stored, and provided you have the helicopter light something
compared to you. Of course, yes, every time you can say this
light is exactly like this one, but it's not like this one, this
one, or this one. Sure so in the Phoenix lights and some of
what you looked at, you found that the lights weren't similar to any notes.
They were not flares because they were not modulating. They were not flares
flicker like a candle light. To look at it as a graph, think
of it as music sound and you're looking at a solo scope, and when
it's quiet, the graph is way at the bottom. You have a mic,
take a drum flam. You hit the drum and the graph will immediately
go up and that will immediately go down, whereas a violin, you hit
the no, it'll come on in a different way. Whereas a drum coming
on and going off looks like a cliff, whereas a violin looks kind of
like a like a little hill going up and then going down at you.
So you look at the way it comes on, the way it goes off,
and the way it it sustains. So a graph of a light in
this room, you put the light switch, it's dark, and the light
comes on a certain way, and then the light stays on and it's constant.
Right, And the Phoenix lights unknowns were constant. And the UH flares,
No, two flares are identical, maybe very close, but they're not
identical. Now the images that you see out there of the Phoenix flights,
the most popular ones syd who took that video, Mike Kristen Okay and and
the Mike Christian video. Some people say that those were flares, but those
weren't what most people had said. Were you able to find in the research?
Were there any flares that were dropped that night to your knowledge, Well,
we didn't find any video of flares. There was an issue about whether
those lights were in front of the Australia Mountains or behind the mountains and above
it or below it, And we have conflicting analysis in that. I know
I saw you do some analysis on that, right. And remember in the
nineties, video frame capture boards didn't exist. There's one frame at a time.
You grab one frame of time of video well, they did exist,
but they did not exist in our analysis. Equipment in the those kind of
graphic cards at the time were thirty thousand dollars where now a graphics card is
thirty dollars. Okay, the software and this and that were all different.
So as the years went on and equipment became more available, different levels,
and we analyzed it again, we would get more information, not necessarily different
information, but get more information that would lead us to be able to make
a conclusion about something that we were uncertain of before. So the way the
lights came on and the way the lights stayed not modulating the unknown lights and
the way they went off we're not characteristic of flares at all. The brightness
there were flares from that distance, the characteristics of those flares, and we
went to the manufacturer, We went to flares experts, found out what FLEs
did, how bright they needed to be in order to be this bright on
a video camera at seventy miles away, and the curvature of the earth,
how high would they have to be in order to be seen seventy miles away
with this brightness of these characteristics, and we just couldn't find anything that indicated
that they were flares optically. Second, the public information officer at Davis,
mont And Air Force Base in Tucson said, yes, we had planes up,
they did drop flares at the very Goldwater Range and they were on the
ground at eight thirty. That conversation happened between Bill Hamilton and the public information
officer at Davis Monton. Some months later, the public information officer for the
Arizona National Guard, Captain Eileen Bevins, said that the Maryland National Guard was
here and had dropped flares at ten o'clock, which was what was seen by
everyone, and that that's what accounted for. That's a lot of time,
months and months for no one to know that the Maryland National Guard had been
here and dropped flares and the times didn't match. Well. Then mcgaha on
Larry King that I think he's an astronomer, right. He was saying that
he believed for some reason they were eight ten yes, and which are extremely
loud, think killers. What aren't they even called wars? Yes, so,
and I don't know what you got that from from, especially when what
was reported had no sound, yes, even in the video. Yes,
Well, there was a lot of hearsaying there was a lot of rush to
judgment about it. All I know is in my analysis, I found no
indication that it could be flares. I found no witnesses to the fact of
it being flares. But even some of the witnesses of the eight o'clock event
or earlier have talked about it being flares. So there's not a consensus of
anyone that quote believes in the Phoenix lights, thinks that there are not flares,
and people that don't believe in the Phoenix Lights or whatever I say that
it is flares. It's a mission accomplished by someone to create a confusion.
A couple of questions on the chat regarding the Phoenix sights. Was there ever
any video or pictures that were taken where you were able to make out any
sort of structure. No, no video or I could make out a structure.
Of course, witnesses had said a chevron tape of things, and where
the where the lights always in a configuration that supported that. We did a
model of a configuration of the lights in a computer based model based on various
witness reports and on the videos that we had, and then located it in
different positions to be able to get that view from that angle at that position
of what would look like a different object, and found consistency that it could
have been just one object with lights on it, but when viewed from different
angles, would look like a different configuration of lights. And there were a
number of witnesses that reported the lights quote undocking from the object, flying off
at a great distance, and then others that reported seeing the lights docking back
on that object. Wow. So another question is have spectrometers ever been used
to analyze light and would that be effective? Welld like a not a mass
spectrometer, because you can't do that with video. That's a different chemical process.
And there's devices that are spectrometers that are used in film in analyzing film
this issue, this has been in the video. We get a version of
that doing color spectrum analysis, and that's one of the things that we use
to I give the lights an index number so that we can try to match
it to the database. And yes, we have used software to do a
color spectrum analysis, not a chemical spectrum analysis. You can't do that on
videotape like astronomers do with stars. And that was the basis for a lot
of confusion back then that our use of that word and astronomer's use of that
word is different. Yes, gotcha, Hanad. I was curious how you
felt then when during this period of time five Dimington had had his press conference,
yes, and came out with this guy is aid wearing the et outfit.
I felt immediately that that someone had gotten to him and said the investigation
that you said you're going to do, you're not going to do it.
You're going to make fun of it. Do you still believe that's the case.
Well, he said in interviews in the last couple of years, including
one with James Fox, that no one ever came. And his answer to
him makes sense that he was trying to diffuse the situation because people were really
excited about him and he was out of losses what to do. Yes,
because he wasn't able to do anything. I haven't talked to him about it.
I can't look him in the eye and know what he's revealing. Now
that's the rest of the story. But remember the National Guard was under his
control. Eileen Bins that came forward and said it was the Maryland National Guard
would have been a regular dialogue with him at that same time, and at
the same time the FEDS were coming after him because they didn't like what he
was doing in states rights. The big thing that five Synington did was when
the federal government ran out of money one weekend and closed the Grand Canyon of
Federal Park, five Simington sent state people up to open the park, which
caused a great controversy between the federal government and the state government, and to
a number of people, became the real reason why the federal government went after
him and claimed that he had given false reports on his financial statement. He
had never taken any money from anyone. What he was run out of office
for was supposedly giving false financial information by exaggerating the net worth of some of
the properties that he owned. That was it interesting because that's a gray area
anyway, Yes, but he was run out of office for that. As
far as you ask anyone what five Symington did, well, well, he
stole money and went to jail, and that's not what happened. So there's
a lot more to that story. And I don't want to try to prejudge
what he did or why he did it. All I know is that what
he did made my stand even more difficult. Well, it is great,
and if it's true and everything what he's claiming now, which he saw the
Phoenix fights and it was a huge chevron shaped craft and he believes that it
is not something that is of this world and technology beyond us. It's a
brave of him to do so to come forward now if you know that is
the case, so to please, Yes, genuine thing where he's making amends
for those for that period of time. Although you know, really in government,
and I think people listening to the show probably understand that the people who
seem to be the guys really controlling things have a lot of It's a lot
more difficult than just hey, I'm the boss, this is what we're going
to do. I'm the governor, I'm the president. Yes, there's a
lot of people they have to please that have a strong say in what they're
doing. Yes, So now that we've got ten minutes left, what do
you actually before we leave the Phoenix Lights. I did also want to mention
that doctor X, who you refer to link to Tai we know her as
now has now created a probably the best documentary on the Phoenix Lights with hundreds
of lots of witness is on this documentary and so she's out there speaking about
everything she experienced during that period of time. So, and you've been part
of that a bit. I'm in that. Yeah, So that's kind of
interesting that she would hide her her who she was back then, but now
she's really out and about in this subject. Well, she further investigated would
have gone on that night and the rest of the phenomena. She got religion
about it, essay and saw that being a messenger of what really happened was
more important than protecting her career. And in fact, her husband, Frank
and her kids support her work, which is great. That's great. So
what are you up to now? Agriculture have been studying for many years the
effects of outside stimuli on plants, seeds and plants, and I've been developing
technologies for making plants grow faster, more nutrition, larger. Have you heard
about how the seeds and crap circles will often in the genuine anomalous ones will
grow quicker? Yes? Do you do that electromagnetic pulsing? Have you looked
into that? I've read about it. I've been after Peter Sorenson for years
to send me a bag of seeds. Yeah, I know. Frankburg of
BLT has done a lot of investigation into that is that bacon, lettuce and
tomato research groups. Oh yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's the
one. Nancy's part of it. Okay, great, well, forgive me
for calling it. You have to look at well that's what everybody calls it.
Yes, yeah, and we've discovered that scientifically there is precedent for it
in that the Hope, the Dogon tribe, the Allayed tribe in Australia and
Plaines Indians have been using certain sounds and instruments for thousands of years to stimulate
plant growth. In fact, the Dogon tribe and Ethiopia grows huge fruits and
vegetables and terrible soil and has a planting ceremony with some really bizarre sounds and
instruments. And we've been analyzing those frequencies and wave shapes and the modulation patterns
and sounds of birds and bugs and bees and thunder and all the combination of
sounds and ground vibrations that will increase for those of you interested lycopene and proline
content, increase the mitochondria rate of the dentosigine triphosphate, and there will be
a test later. So you write down these words interesting. That's that someone
in the chat was saying earlier there's going to be a quid, So what
is that. What are one of the items that you've seen that has the
biggest effect, well, the sound waves specifically, and it's a pattern we
can get the seed germination in two days on things that might take ten to
fifteen days. And the guy that wrote the book many years ago in seventies,
Christopher Bird wrote The Secret Life of Plants, spent a lot of time
with me in the eighties at my ranch at the Flying Heart Ranch in Arizona,
looking at my techniques and networking for me to introduce me to others that
might use it. So it's our I created some gadgets sounds many years ago
that have been marketed as Sonic Bloom by Dan Carlson Sonic Bloom Company. And
I have a new generation of sounds that I've been experimenting with on large scale
thousand acres at the time in Indonesia and in Nebraska. We find sometimes a
twentyfold two thousand percent increase and things like all like lettuce and radishes and cantalopes.
We've experimented with golden seal echinaesia and with corn, potatoes and flowers,
and so there might be something to the mythology that talking to your plants.
Actually there is. In fact, the MythBusters did a show, show number
fourteen. Really yeah, they built six greenhouses and had silence man talking acoustic
music, symphony music, blah blah blah, and it grew bigger. It
couldn't us the myth in In fact, there's ten pages devoted to us in
their well to the process in their new book called Don't Try This at Home.
And there's been stories about us on CNN and growing grapes in Italy,
and it's just it's a process of deciding what's going to be public domain that
we're going to give away, and patenting the devices and working with organic food
growers. And we've been talking seriously with the Red Cross about emergency food growing
kits, and we've been going to FEMA some disaster preparedness training seminars about creating
fast grow food packages for Katrina type situations and backyard growing. So if people
wanted to read more about that, where would they find informistion? To email
me about it, because it's a very precise process. We don't have a
website about it, but my email is the last four letters of my name,
Jim Bellatoso tso at Cox dot net, Cox dot net. And I
have lots of white papers, and I have lots of diagrams and how to
things. Because we're waiting for the patents, which we applied for a few
years ago. There are certain rules about you know, run silent, run
deep while you're waiting for the patents. But in the meantime, I'm not
really patent driven. I would bounce it off of a satellite and give it
to the poor people of the world. That's my decision, I guess.
My last question is the UFO question. Yes, since you've been involved with
this for so long and so much in the media, have you seen a
change in the way media treats the subject. Yes, media is more open
minded, UFO community is more mean spirited. Interesting. Yes, there's kind
of been a plot somehow that way, right, So yeah, it is
really interesting. I mean, a lot of investigators, a lot of chat
there's a lot of people are really mean spirited. They're not open minded,
They're closed minded and wanting to crush the entire position that extraterrestrials might be coming
here. And then when open minded media used the net or other media outlets
to find experts, those experts now give them negative information when they're open minded
to report whatever is told to them. But I find the general public in
the media is more intelligent than a large faction of the UFO research community has
become mean spirited. Well that's an interesting perspective, and I guess, you
know, looking at it, certainly I can see why he didn't have that
perspective. But open minds will save the day exactly. You know, we're
a great hope for this field. M h. Well, thank you so
much for being on the show. It was a lot of fun, a
lot of great information, and I think a lot of people will need to
be introduced to some of these old cases, especially like the Billy Meyer case
and some of the evidence, because, like you said, there's a lot
of million spirit in people out there who do a lot of talking, but
they don't really present the evidence, which is the most important aspect as to
figuring out whether or not something's real. Yes, so next week is Christmas
Eve, so we're not going to have the show next week. We're gonna
have to wait a couple of weeks. Everybody have a great Christmas out there,
and then a couple of weeks we'll have another excellent guest. Hopefully it'll
be someone close enough where I could get into the studio, but not all
UFO reachers live researchers live in Phoenix. Unfortunately, we don't have the budget
to buy people in on every show yet. Before we sign off, can
I just say one thing about secret of Santa Claus. One thing I have
discovered of Santa Claus is really one of the free wise men still alive today.
You check out that major scene, you get that interesting look at the
guy with the purple hat on with the funny hat, Santa Claus. Now,
have you verified a photo of the main interesting to be real? No,
I have not. It's just a feeling that I have that if Santa
Claus really exists, he's got some special power. Yeah, he's got to
be mad and alive this long and it's that guy standing here in the main
Testine and he still brings presents to people that are good. Well, now
I'm gonna have to take something mean. I'm skeptical about this, while saying
I think, okay, okay, go ahead and ding them open mind and
we can be mean about Santa I would want to ty it. Yeah,
all right, Well, Santa Claus, if you're out there, I was
just kidding. And you know, I don't know what a UFO is.
What I want for Christmas some sort of cool sports model beamship like the Billy
Meyer Pladiums drive. All right, thanks everybody, We will talk to you
in a couple of weeks. Buses b buses, boo