1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,960 Hi, everyone. This is Christina and Carmen and this is another episode of 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,640 A Spooky Tells, the podcast for all things a spooky, sometimes to crime. 3 00:00:12,759 --> 00:00:16,039 Sometimes we're a book club and that's what we're doing today. There's no 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,079 MJ today, unfortunately, but we do have an awesome guest with us, 5 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:23,280 a returning guest. I should add, we have Cynthia Gomez. She is 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,920 a writer, a researcher, and she's actually she was with us to talk 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,600 about the Shivering World sometime last year. Was that last year or longer? 8 00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:37,159 Two years ago? I don't remember anymore. Well, it came out in 9 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:44,799 November twenty twenty two, so sometime around then. Yeah, so over twenty 10 00:00:44,799 --> 00:00:50,399 four two. Wow. Yeah, okay, and you're back with a new 11 00:00:50,439 --> 00:00:54,479 book. I'm so glad to be back. I'm very excited. I got 12 00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:57,280 an email one day that was like Oakland Horror is back, and I was 13 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,520 like, oh, I'm intrigued, and anyone says Oakland, I'm there, 14 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:07,920 And that's actually what happened the first time. What I think it was on 15 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:11,359 was it Twitter? Yeah, that's why you said I don't remember how we 16 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,159 found each other? Is that what I said? Listened to the episode today. 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,879 So yeah, yeah, I think Cynthia had you made a tweet about 18 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:21,680 something about like and I in Oakland and I was like, tell me more 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,680 please, something like that. Yeah, and then I, you know, 20 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,719 I remembered it and I squirreled that away. So then later when I had 21 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,480 the book, I reached out to you to say, you know, like, 22 00:01:32,079 --> 00:01:34,519 now it's a real thing and it's it's a book and it's out and 23 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:37,560 I would love to talk about it. And I remember, that's right. 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,000 I remember that conversation that we had about the Shivering World, and it's it's 25 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,519 in a series called Split Scream, and there are two novelettes, like long 26 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,760 short stories, and the other is by a writer named m LAPAs Ta Silva, 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,840 and it's called What Ate the Angels And it's like very different in tone, 28 00:01:55,159 --> 00:01:59,640 but very similar in terms of being about like working class, clear people 29 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:04,079 just trying to get by and so so yeah, and that's a lot of 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,439 what the new collection is about. The Nightmare Box, Yes, yeah, 31 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:12,439 and let's yeah talk about the new book a little bit. So the Nightmare 32 00:02:12,479 --> 00:02:16,919 Box and other stories. There's quite a bit of different stories in this collection 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:23,560 and they're all amazing. Thank you, Thank you. It's twelve stories and 34 00:02:23,319 --> 00:02:30,439 they're all set in or connected to Oakland, and they all center for almost 35 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:37,319 all of them, center ordinate people, working class, square Latino people who 36 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:42,280 are dealing in one way or another with supernatural powers. Sometimes they have supernatural 37 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,879 powers and they're wielding them. Sometimes the powers are being used against them. 38 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,840 Sometimes it's like a contest for both. And then there are a few that 39 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,680 are a little different. There are a few. There are two that are 40 00:02:51,719 --> 00:02:57,439 inside the heads of white men who get what's coming to them in one way 41 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,719 or another. Yes, so yeah, that's a short introduction to the story. 42 00:03:01,759 --> 00:03:06,080 It's all about magic, and it's got your standard horror stuff of like 43 00:03:06,479 --> 00:03:09,199 zombie like creatures and there's a witch and there's a ghost and there's a vampire 44 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:15,360 and you know, all those things. But then it uh and I love 45 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:19,240 Ira leven. So there's one story that's basically like a straight up homage to 46 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,000 Ira eleven. But then you know, it's my own particular spin on it. 47 00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:29,719 Yes, And each each story it's like I'll touching on such important topics 48 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:34,800 that we always always try to refer to back to because like horror and not 49 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,439 even just like horror movies and horror stories and books. But even like the 50 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:43,240 myths and legends that we hear, they're all rooted in the same thing, 51 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:49,280 especially in places like Latin America, oppression, racism. Like so you, 52 00:03:49,599 --> 00:03:57,039 yeah, you do such an amazing job of always connecting a story because that's 53 00:03:57,039 --> 00:04:01,039 I mean, it affects us, it does. Thank you. I really 54 00:04:01,199 --> 00:04:04,280 with the stories. What I wanted to do with a lot of them was 55 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,719 tackle this is the stuff. These are the things that we have to live 56 00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:13,319 with that I have a lot of anger about, right Like I have to 57 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,639 walk out every day and deal with people who are and see people being brutalized 58 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,879 by the cops, or you know, I have friends who have hard times 59 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,120 with their landlord or coworkers who have to deal with sexual harassment and all these 60 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:31,319 are things that I have to just watch or experience or both and I feel 61 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:36,120 really powerless about. And I still don't have any more power in the real 62 00:04:36,199 --> 00:04:39,920 world than I did when I started writing these stories. But at least in 63 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:45,040 the world of my imagination. I can change change the equation and change the 64 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,399 story. And in some cases I take actual real life stories and write, 65 00:04:49,519 --> 00:04:56,040 here's what I wish would have happened, and those are. They sometimes get 66 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,319 very dark, but they're also ultimately really satisfying. That reminds me because Carmen 67 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:04,040 and I were earlier talking and we're like one of our both our favorite stories. 68 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,920 Let me scroll to the title because oh I have it. Hold on, 69 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:11,439 will they disappear? That one? Right? What about the two adoptive 70 00:05:11,439 --> 00:05:15,360 mothers? Yes, okay, yeah, that that one. You know? 71 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,639 Reading it, I think Carla and I both immediately recognized what the real story 72 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:25,360 that you uh, I guess, I don't know, took inspiration from based 73 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:30,360 it on. Yeah, the actual case that happened is the Heart Family, 74 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,079 and it was such a I mean, obviously it was like twenty twenty, 75 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,839 you know, everything was there was like so so many protests and then you 76 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:42,839 know these two. For those that don't know, the story is these two 77 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,519 white women adopted five the five siblings, was it? I forget if it 78 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,920 was five, it was six. I think it might have been six one 79 00:05:50,399 --> 00:05:55,480 of those two. Yeah, they actually at one point lived like an hour, 80 00:05:55,639 --> 00:05:59,160 not sorry, not even an hour, like half an hour from here 81 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,360 where I'm at. So they were living. They moved around a bunch of 82 00:06:01,399 --> 00:06:06,600 different places, and then they basically used it's in the little note at the 83 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,279 end of the story that I wrote. But they basically used their whiteness to 84 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:15,279 shield them from ever having any consequences, even though their children tried to tell 85 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:21,199 social workers what was happening. And so they were living in Washington, and 86 00:06:21,639 --> 00:06:25,240 I don't remember where, but it sounds like I was really close to you. 87 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,759 I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I kind of recall they were like, 88 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,800 not was Shoogle, but it was. It was not far from here at 89 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:38,680 all. Yeah, so like some small town in Washington, and they finally, 90 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,759 it's not clear why, but it seems like they finally thought that they 91 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,120 might face some consequences. And the real story, you know, I'm about 92 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:51,480 to tell you is absolutely awful. They murdered their children and murdered suicide. 93 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:57,800 Yes, right near Mendocino, which is not just a couple hours north of 94 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,160 where I live in Oakland to Mendocino County, and they just drove off the 95 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:05,759 cliff and it wasn't even clear. I remember reading the news reports about this 96 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,199 terrible tragedy, and then later it started to emerge not only was it not 97 00:07:10,519 --> 00:07:14,680 an accident, but that there was actually something even worse. If that's possible, 98 00:07:14,759 --> 00:07:17,360 then what had already happened. So you know, I remember reading about 99 00:07:17,399 --> 00:07:23,399 that and just kind of chewing it over and chewing it over. And this 100 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:26,680 was a Twitter conversation that I was having at one point when I had already 101 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,439 started to work on a couple of stories, and I remember making some comment 102 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,439 to the effect of, you know, wouldn't it be nice to write a 103 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:38,480 different version of that? And I thought, well, okay, I'm a 104 00:07:38,519 --> 00:07:43,199 writer. So that's when I started working on that, and it was It's 105 00:07:43,279 --> 00:07:46,879 the darkest thing I've ever written because of the subject matter is so dark, 106 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,399 and even like in your story, the things that those children went through, 107 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:57,279 some of them are like things that the real children went through, and it's 108 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,040 just it's horrible. And the I think I forgot. I think it was 109 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,920 a podcast called What Did You Do? They had an episode on the case, 110 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:07,959 but yeah, I just looked it up. They lived in Woodland, 111 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,560 Washington, right before they fled Washington to go to California, where then they 112 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,399 went on to murder the children. So yeah, Woodland is forty minutes for 113 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:24,879 me most but they escaped from state to state every time there was something that 114 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,360 was like about to happen in those group of children. That wasn't even the 115 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:31,000 first like red Flag, they had adopted another like teen girl and then just 116 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,440 returned her, like you can't just return kids like this, and this was 117 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,840 after like abusing her. And because there was no like connecting, there was 118 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:43,360 no way for like all these different states to know the history of these women. 119 00:08:43,639 --> 00:08:48,480 But also there was no reason for them to doubt the women because oh, 120 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,399 look, these are two queer white women who just want to change the 121 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,360 world. There was no like, on top of no reason for quote unquote, 122 00:08:56,399 --> 00:08:58,600 no reason for them to look into the history of the women. Like 123 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,600 you said, they use their whiteness to shield the horrible things they were doing, 124 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,960 and that's why they got away with it for so long they did. 125 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:11,399 And it's really I watched this episode. I had already started working on the 126 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,519 story, but I watched this episode or this documentary on HBO called Broken Hearts 127 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,320 or something like that, and it didn't pull any punches on just why these 128 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,440 women did what they did. And the idea that really what they needed was 129 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,080 this narrative where they were the saviors. So then I really tapped into that 130 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,080 and I will not spoil what happens about the story. What happened to the 131 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,320 story for readers. But it's funny because right now when I'm talking to you, 132 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,919 I'm staring at my bookshelf and there's a copy of Carrie, like right 133 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:46,039 on top. And so one of the children that they take in turns out 134 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,440 to have supernatural powers. It's not exactly like Carrie, but you know, 135 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:56,000 you kind of get the idea, and she can make things disappear and then 136 00:09:56,039 --> 00:10:00,000 she can make things reappear. And so I thought, well, let me 137 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,320 put that into a situation where you have these moms who have been able to 138 00:10:03,399 --> 00:10:07,639 just go unchecked and unchecked no matter what they do, and then let's see 139 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,200 what happens when they encounter a child who actually has powers, and what happens 140 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,679 with those powers. I'm gonna let the readers figure out because I don't want 141 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,679 to spoil it. But you know, it was really dark while I was 142 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:22,759 writing it, but I got to say, it's really satisfying, and again, 143 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,279 like, that's not how it happened in real life, but I can, 144 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,399 you know. And one one funny little tidbit too. If you are 145 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,600 like me and you're a gen X baby and you I don't know if either 146 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,600 of you grew up reading the Sweet Valley High series a little bit, a 147 00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:39,360 little bit from it, but I never read a bunch Yeah yeah, same 148 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:45,799 so because but Carmon, you're familiar with like Jessica and Elizabeth. Yeah yeah, 149 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:48,799 Jessica Elizabeth Wakefield. So that's exactly where I got the name of both 150 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,519 those two women. It was like a little in joke to Jessica and Elizabeth 151 00:10:52,519 --> 00:10:56,320 from Sweet Valley High. I'm gonna need to look into this so then I 152 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:01,039 can be in on the joke too. There's a I don't think it's happening 153 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,600 anymore that but there was a blog that I read for years in like the 154 00:11:03,639 --> 00:11:09,480 mid two thousands called the Dairy Burger da I r I because that's like the 155 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:13,759 hangout that all the kids hang out in the books. And so this was 156 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:16,679 a woman who, like me, grew up reading them and then goes back 157 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:20,759 to analyze all of the absolutely horrible like this, the sexism, the fat 158 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:24,039 phobia. Okay, I need to look into this because I love ruining things 159 00:11:24,039 --> 00:11:31,200 for my childhood that you really do. What else do you do you find 160 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,519 that you love to ruin from your childhood? Like I don't remember off the 161 00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:37,799 top of my head now, But I mean, oh, I'll tell you 162 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,960 one that I loved. Harry Potter was one that I actually was like, 163 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:45,240 oh my god, these names are so racist. What is cho Chanin? 164 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:52,600 Like? What wasn't there actually one black character it's called Kingsley shackle Bolt, 165 00:11:52,960 --> 00:12:00,519 Yes, the black wizard, that was his name? What kind of shit 166 00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:09,039 is that? The good thing? Absolutely insane, the goblins, it's all 167 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,360 of so much, all of it, all of it, and looking back 168 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,840 at it, I'm like, oh my god, this is actually horrible. 169 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,320 Yeah. Yeah, Well, I'm glad that you found that guarnament because I 170 00:12:18,399 --> 00:12:24,200 never read them. I watched the movies. But it's it's like, it's 171 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,080 it is so much fun to destroy our childhoods. I grew up with John 172 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:31,360 Hughes, and like, it's been really fun to both so both love what 173 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,080 was good about John Hughes and also to recognize, Oh my god, did 174 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,399 you all see that scene in sixteen Candles where they joke about I mean, 175 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,600 I'm I'm assuming everyone knows that knows what the joke I'm talking about, but 176 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:46,720 you know where the two characters are just happily joking about what we know is 177 00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:52,919 sexual assault because it's a girl in yunk and she can't consent and that's treated 178 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,759 as like, oh haha, it is not that kid funny mm hmmmm. 179 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:00,440 And what's the other one, the romance movie with Ryan Gossling and what's her 180 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:05,440 name Rachel mc adams The Notebook, Yeah, where he's like he basically wears 181 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,360 her down by saying, well, he wears her down, and then he 182 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:13,600 threatens to uh kill himself if he doesn't if she doesn't agree to go on 183 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:18,080 a day with him. Yes, and that's abuse, Yes, but it 184 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:22,600 was like, oh my god, some romantic but you were like younger watching 185 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:28,039 it. Twilight a mess? Twilight. Yeah, I could talk about Twilight 186 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,960 all day. I'm not gonna but but there's so much the actually read them 187 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,480 all. No, but speaking of vampires, Okay, there we go, 188 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,600 talk about vampires. There we go, we're coming back vampires. I mean, 189 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,960 you already mentioned there's vampires in your book the first story, but I'm 190 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,080 not gonna like spoil more than that, but vampires. I love me vampire 191 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,080 stories. So this was a fun one. The ending, I was like, 192 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,840 wow, this is great. I just I think a lot of the 193 00:13:56,879 --> 00:14:01,200 stories were like what's the word, like, oh sweet, revenge or like, 194 00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:07,000 yeah, it was one of my favorite things. Like I love when 195 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,320 people actually get their come up ins. You know, I do too, 196 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,120 I do too. And in all the cases, like it's not a spoiler 197 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:24,000 for any of the stories to say that nobody what those characters when they do 198 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:28,000 get revenge, you know, or when someone gets their come upance, nobody 199 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,919 gets what wasn't coming to them. They only got back what they put out 200 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,240 into the world. Like the motto of a lot of my characters would be, 201 00:14:35,559 --> 00:14:41,080 like it's even tattooed on one of my characters chests, like Roberto from 202 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,639 the Thorne story. He says, don't start no shit, won't be no 203 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:48,679 shit. They don't get it that wasn't coming to them. So but yeah, 204 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,440 the vampire story that has a funny I like to tell the backstory of 205 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,720 the vampire tale. That's the one that's called Lips like Sugar, And it's 206 00:14:54,759 --> 00:15:01,559 the first one because I work for a labor union and one of my tasks 207 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:05,159 that I had to do about two or three years ago, now that I 208 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,399 was really not good at, was making a database and I had to enter 209 00:15:09,399 --> 00:15:13,440 a whole bunch of data into the database. And then there was a formula 210 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,200 that we used to calculate seniority, like how many years and days you've worked 211 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,080 there? Like you know, okay, it's your start date and here's your 212 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,639 end date. Okay, Well then therefore you you've been at that job seven 213 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,799 years. And I made some kind of mistake and I accidentally gave a whole 214 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,039 bunch of people like instead of you know, seven years of seniority or whatever 215 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:35,399 it was, I gave them hundreds of years of seniority somehow. And so 216 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,679 I joked that, well, I obviously I made a mistake somewhere when I 217 00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:41,720 calculated that or I put in the formula because as far as I know, 218 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:46,720 our union doesn't represent any vampires. And nobody laughed at the joke. Oh 219 00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:50,879 I would have been cracking out. It was a funny joke. So but 220 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,080 it got me thinking, like I was walking around with my dog as I 221 00:15:54,159 --> 00:15:56,320 like to do and thinking about story thoughts, and so I was like, 222 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:00,399 well, what would a vampire union agitate for? Right, like if they 223 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:04,120 had vampire union committee meetings, what would the vampires agitate for? And that 224 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,679 didn't stick around. But what did stick around was like, because like you, 225 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,519 I love you know you were saying, Christina, you love a vampire 226 00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:15,639 story. I do too, and so often they're rich, right, Like 227 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:21,240 vampires are yich old and rich, old and rich and almost all white, 228 00:16:21,279 --> 00:16:23,200 and like what is it with if a vampire is you know, like the 229 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:30,039 obsession with vampires as former members of the Confederacy. But so I just thought 230 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:32,600 it'd be really fun to play with, Well, what if you were just 231 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:36,320 a working class person who became a vampire and you didn't have all this money 232 00:16:36,679 --> 00:16:41,840 and you still had to just survive. And so that was part of the 233 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,039 story. And then I had this idea that I've been wanting to play with 234 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,720 for a while of supernatural power. Like I had this story plan that I 235 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,559 couldn't turn into anything about women who have supernatural power and the freedom that they 236 00:16:53,559 --> 00:16:56,559 were able to have, but I couldn't figure out why they have it. 237 00:16:56,679 --> 00:17:00,000 And so I put those two things together. Oh, well, that's that's 238 00:17:00,039 --> 00:17:03,799 who has the supernatural power, is the vampire, and she's just an ordinary 239 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:08,039 person. And what is it like to like walk into a bar and it's 240 00:17:08,039 --> 00:17:12,319 full of strange drunk men and she knows they can't hurt her, right, 241 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:18,799 because like no one knows what that's like right, No, it's not just 242 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,240 I mean, it's definitely not true for women, but it's also not true 243 00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:26,279 for almost anybody who's like gender and unconforming in any kind of way, right 244 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:30,200 you're queer, Yeah, you know, so, like just that thought was 245 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,440 really delicious. It was, well, what is the start calling again? 246 00:17:34,519 --> 00:17:40,240 Something like sugar like sugar sugar, Yes, and it's it's from an Echo 247 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:41,920 and the Bunnymn song. I don't know who they are. Echo the Bunnyman 248 00:17:42,039 --> 00:17:48,240 is like kind of if you like The Cure or Joy Division, like a 249 00:17:48,279 --> 00:17:52,720 lot of yeah, same same concept, like same general vibe, right, 250 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:57,400 like a lot of like heavy synth and like you know, they wear a 251 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:02,720 lot of black makeup, a black lott I make up, but you know, 252 00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:06,720 that sort of shoegaze synthpop. So if you like The Cure, you 253 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:10,079 probably would like Joy Division two and go and the Bunnyman. But yeah, 254 00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:12,119 it's just kind of it's his boppy song. It's called lips like Sugar, 255 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:21,440 So okay, I'll have to look it up. Also, reading through the 256 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,920 book, it was like such an emotional roller coaster. Roller coaster. Yeah, 257 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:27,880 it was like one minute, I'm like, oh my god, I'm 258 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:36,599 so sad and where was the high? This is just i feel like I'm 259 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:40,279 fishing for compliments, but I've got to know, like where was the highest 260 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:45,359 roller coaster? I think? Okay, so the for me, the let 261 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:51,200 me look at the name because I never remember names, so it was someone 262 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,839 else is to destroy. Oh yeah, getting to the end of that, 263 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,039 well, first when I started to realize what actually was going down with the 264 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,640 children and of her and just like you know, her whole life and will 265 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,640 led her to do that, you like, I understand it, of course, 266 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:10,839 But then at the same time, I'm like, oh my god, 267 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,039 like to have to have like to know what she's doing and to know why 268 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,880 she's doing it. And I know readers you don't even know until you read 269 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:22,119 book the story and you have to oh my god, that and I have 270 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,240 two little boys, and oh that that one, but not only her, 271 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,359 everyone's story in the family, like the cousin and the struggles she was going 272 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,640 through. And then like, you know, having been the one that this 273 00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:38,920 the mom of the boys trusted her to know this is what I've done. 274 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,119 Yeah, that I think that one emotionally, but I mean that wasn't the 275 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,359 only one, but I think that was the biggest one. I even message 276 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,240 Car and I'm like, I this one messed me up. Yeah, it 277 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:56,759 was. It was heartbreaking to know what she felt like she had to do, 278 00:19:56,279 --> 00:20:00,039 you know, and and you kind of felt like the main character of 279 00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:04,880 the story, the cousin where she's like, well, I like, you 280 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,160 can't feel like she did right or wrong, like you just understand like why 281 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,960 she did it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's the most we 282 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,799 can do, is understand why. Because I will not spoil what the what 283 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:22,680 it is that the mom did right, because we're all going to figure it 284 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:26,920 out. I can say what inspired me. But frankly, if you've read 285 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,079 either of these books, then it's a little bit of a spoiler for the 286 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,039 story. So I put them in the show notes or something, let us 287 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,759 know offline. Okay, yeah, then I could read it later. Yeah, 288 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:41,079 because it's basically heavily, heavily inspired by two books. One is a 289 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,559 kid's book and what is definitely not a kid's book that I read when I 290 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:48,960 was growing up. Oh yes, okay, let us know. I'll find 291 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:52,119 okay, I need to know, Okay, but no that and even I 292 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:53,440 finished and I was like, what happened? And I went back and I'm 293 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:59,440 like, oh no, this is what happened. Oh man, yeah, 294 00:20:59,519 --> 00:21:03,079 that one, huh. That one I'm still recovering. I would say, 295 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:11,119 I'm sorry, but I don't know if that's but yeah, it's it's a 296 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,920 whole it's a whole lot. And what's interesting is that was actually the first 297 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,119 of all the stories in here. There's the one that I published earliest, 298 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,480 and it's the one that I was like the most iffy about including, because 299 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:26,480 you know, to to write is to grow, and I remember looking at 300 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,799 it and going, Okay, there's some things that I would do differently, 301 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,720 Like there's a little bit of a there's some stereotypes that I feel like the 302 00:21:34,799 --> 00:21:38,200 character of Imani, she's there for Latina character falls into that. I think 303 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,839 I would probably I see, I would probably polish up now and I would 304 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:47,559 probably take on a little bit differently for her. You know, I wasn't 305 00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:48,799 going to re edit it because I feel like, that's that's not what we 306 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,440 do, right, Like, that's that's what I wrote then, five years 307 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,920 ago, and it's the kind of ritter I was then. But I know 308 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,920 you're not supposed to read your reviews online, but I do, and what 309 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,160 I find interesting is how many people like the combination of getting drawn to the 310 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,640 will they disappear and the saone else is to destroy it. Like very often 311 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,079 people will say that those are the two that jumped out at them just just 312 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:18,480 the way that both of you have because they are the they're easily the darkest 313 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:22,200 and they kind of touch on similar themes. Is like the fuller opposite of 314 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:29,680 caretakers caring for kids, right, yeah, because like at the end of 315 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,880 the day, what would you not do or what would you do? I 316 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,680 mean thought a thought popped in my head that I'm wondering if this is the 317 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,319 book that you read. But I'll just wait till you tell us to see 318 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:41,759 if I'm in the chat, so we don't spoil it for the listeners. 319 00:22:42,039 --> 00:22:45,960 Yes, all that to just say, everyone has to read this. It's 320 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,880 so good. It's so good, like we were saying, an emotional roller 321 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,319 coaster, but also at the same time like cathartic, but at the same 322 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,400 time, I mean some stories were also fun, Like there's just there's like 323 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,720 everything not to I mean, we're gonna it's not that you're fishing for a 324 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,960 couple ofments. We're just we're gonna give them you know they're going to throw 325 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,359 them out there, because so it was It's like, seriously, such a 326 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,559 good collection of stories. There's another one I do want to talk about, 327 00:23:10,559 --> 00:23:12,160 though, the Red Break. Oh my god, that was my Oh that 328 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,559 was my other other Yeah, yeah, that was our other favorite one. 329 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:19,799 A lot of the stories here are they come from anger. They come from 330 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,559 anger and frustration. We could sense it. I think I could. Yeah, 331 00:23:23,559 --> 00:23:26,559 I could feel it, and you know, I didn't want to just 332 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,839 be anger. I wanted to do something with it. And so I remember, 333 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:33,640 I guess this is, you know, years ago now, but when 334 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:38,000 the news started coming out about children being kept in cages, and for one 335 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:41,599 thing, we already knew that that shit had been happening. We already knew 336 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,720 just how much horrible stuff had been done along the border by every president. 337 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:51,559 But it felt like it took a new, a new sleep into depravity during 338 00:23:51,559 --> 00:23:56,519 the Trump administration. And I remember just having this image of Kirsten I think 339 00:23:56,599 --> 00:23:59,759 Nielsen, doesn't matter what her last name is, but the woman who was 340 00:23:59,839 --> 00:24:02,440 like head of homodsecurity at the time, you know, who was kind of 341 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,720 responsible for the extra leap into depravity. And I remember just I had this 342 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,559 picture if I wanted that wherever she went, I wanted her to be confronted 343 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,880 by ghosts of little children, little brown children that had been taken from their 344 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,960 parents or that had drowned on the border. And I wanted her never to 345 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,920 be able to eat a meal in piece again without confronting those people, without 346 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,359 confronting the people that she had harmed. And you know, obviously I would 347 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,079 love it if somehow that could happen in real life, but right, And 348 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:38,640 I also started thinking about the fact that lots of quote unquote good people have 349 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:42,799 to make horrible decisions, like the main character in Red Brick, and they 350 00:24:42,839 --> 00:24:45,759 still have to people who still consider themselves good people. Right, So the 351 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,519 narrator or the main character in Red Brick is you know, he's a family 352 00:24:49,559 --> 00:24:52,240 man, and you know he cares about his children, and he's like the 353 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:56,839 whole time, just to find it. Yes, I had so many thoughts 354 00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:59,880 on Aridian, and I'm like, but this is what happens when you do 355 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,319 humanize and make somebody an enemy, like you don't see them as like you. 356 00:25:04,319 --> 00:25:08,799 You're able to justify any action, like you take a quote against them, 357 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,720 because you don't see them as you know, someone equal to you, 358 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,359 yeah, and I love that that was what you picked up on garment because 359 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,240 that's it was not very fun to be in this guy's head. But it 360 00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:22,960 was also kind of a fun challenge to figure out, Okay, how do 361 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:26,920 I you know, for one thing, how do I write a story about 362 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,240 a racist without writing a racist story. That was a challenge, right, 363 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:34,400 And also like it didn't feel like like someone because you know, I think 364 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,720 sometimes when people write like racist characters, they make them like curric. I 365 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,640 can't say the word. It's too obvious, it's too out there where now 366 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,599 it's like a were you gonna say character, yes, that word, I 367 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,279 can't say yeah. But here it's you see that every yeah. You see 368 00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:56,359 how the everyday white man becomes that yeah yeah and is and doesn't even see 369 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,759 it as something that's wrong because he doesn't because it's not not to him. 370 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,160 But then and even the wife is like, oh, like, your friends 371 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,920 say this and you know, insert derogatory term towards these children, migrant children. 372 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,279 And then he's like, well, they say that, but I don't. 373 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,039 But you're but he's still in this field, and he's still he still 374 00:26:15,079 --> 00:26:18,680 thinks this at the end, when he's like completely freaking out, and he 375 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,279 you know, thinks he sees what he sees. He uses these terms too, 376 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:26,160 and so at the end of the day, he was that person, 377 00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:30,440 but to him he wasn't. And his coworkers were Mexican at least they had 378 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:33,839 Latino last names. So you're like, yeah, exactly, I had one 379 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:38,240 person challenge, well what about making him Latino? And I, frankly was 380 00:26:38,319 --> 00:26:41,000 just I had already finished the story. I was like, I don't want 381 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,279 to go back. You're like, it's late, it's too much now. 382 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,759 But you know, but he's just an ordinary guy. He's not the you 383 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,119 know, the head of any of this. And that was fun, like 384 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,880 the and especially like I won't spoil the scene outside the donut shop, but 385 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:03,119 that was nothing but and you know, the kind of thing that like I 386 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,519 really wish would happen again, Like it's you know, I put my wishes 387 00:27:06,559 --> 00:27:10,359 on the page and it was really fun to do. That was yeah. 388 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,000 That was I mean, like in my top three because I can't even like 389 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,839 I have too many favorites. I'm god, that's my favorite, that's my 390 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,880 favorite, but this was like really really one of my favorites just to see 391 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,039 like, oh, I hope someone is out here really being haunted like this 392 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,119 because the things that you have to do to be in that line of work, 393 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,519 like oh, and we have I mean we have I don't know if 394 00:27:30,759 --> 00:27:33,599 direct family members, but like people in the family and you know, the 395 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,119 whole family that yeah, they have joined and I myself have joined oppressive systems 396 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,359 like this, like the US military. I'm not going to say that it 397 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,359 was, that's not what Well, it's so built in to society. Yeah, 398 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:51,480 yeah, yeah, we're like every little bit you're contributing to these oppressive 399 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,680 systems, even if you're not the one out here with the gun pointing out 400 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:59,799 a little brown child, right, but these systems are all connected and just 401 00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:03,799 you know, to see someone in that line of work like finally like oh 402 00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:07,119 he's you know, because I mean the person in the main story is a 403 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,160 little more involved, right, but they think they're not they think they're doing 404 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,160 the right thing. And so it was it was so fun that one. 405 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,759 It was fun. I'm so glad it was fun. There's another that is 406 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:22,440 a different angle on the same question is the title story, The Nightmare Box, 407 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,680 because there's a part where the character who is a witch, she makes 408 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,720 custom nightmares, and she starts to wonder about who she's really working for because 409 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,519 it's set in nineteen seventy, and she notices that all of her victims are 410 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,519 somehow connected to the Black Panthers. And so there's this one part where trust 411 00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:45,319 me, I'm not spoiling at listeners, but she gets the nightmare box is 412 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:48,759 what brings these objects that she needs to make her nightmares, and they're like 413 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,119 usually something that belonged to the victim, but there are also these lists that 414 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:57,799 some person gathered by gathering, you know, spy information on the victims. 415 00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:04,839 And so some is out there gathering information on the victim's greatest fear and they're 416 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,319 you know, closest family members and all this stuff that's going to be used 417 00:29:08,319 --> 00:29:12,519 to emotionally hurt them. And so there's this moment where the main character, 418 00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:17,240 Serena, is reading this list that someone's given her so she can make her 419 00:29:17,279 --> 00:29:21,359 latest nightmare, and she notices, hey, this is typed up on carbon 420 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,519 copy, and she starts to think about the secretary who typed up that list, 421 00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:30,160 and whether that secretary who typed up that list ever thought about what she's 422 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,880 doing, because you know, that secretary was a she right, and so 423 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:37,200 you know what this list is for and who uses it? Or she just 424 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:40,160 typing away you know, Okay, I'm gonna make this list of you know, 425 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,599 greatest fears and closest family members, and then I'm going to file it 426 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,759 away and then I'm going to go and have dinner with my friends or whatever. 427 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,119 And then at the same time, Serena is also going in her own 428 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:53,480 head as she's thinking this, She's going and what do you tell yourself about 429 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:59,519 what this list is for? Yes, that was another one of my favorites. 430 00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:02,759 And the the end of that one too, oh, I was like, 431 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,319 I'm I'm glad that she turned it around. That was that was really 432 00:30:07,359 --> 00:30:11,400 good too. But even I mean, and you say it after every story, 433 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,160 but like what real events, you know a lot of these stories were 434 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,400 taking place, but like it's not I think we know a lot of us 435 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:25,279 know now, especially that these parties, the Black Panther, the Young Lords, 436 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:30,160 they were being infiltrated. So just to weave in like a bruquat doing 437 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,079 this work. But like at first, she wasn't not like not that she 438 00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:37,920 wasn't aware, but she wasn't like I guess awake, you didn't say or 439 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,319 she wasn't realizing what she was doing, just to weave that in there. 440 00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:45,799 Amazing, Oh my god. Truly. I mean, the the basic premise 441 00:30:45,799 --> 00:30:48,440 that I thought of with the Nightmare Box was a bunch of different things. 442 00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:53,440 One of the inspirations comes from a Stephen King creation because I grew up reading 443 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,400 Stephen King. Did have you ever read The fire Starter or Fire Shorter? 444 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,200 I didn't. It's been on my list for so long, but I've only 445 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,000 read two Stephen King books ever, Salem's Law and God. It was like 446 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,400 a seven book series. What's it called The Dark Tower? Yeah, the 447 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,160 Dark Tower? That was the other one. So I've only read those two, 448 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,880 that one. What about you gotman? I haven't read any you know, 449 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,920 there's like I feel like it's definitely that's a lot of fun to read 450 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,960 him if you haven't. There's so much good horror that it's not like, 451 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200 you know, you could you could never read Stephen King and still read plenty 452 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,079 of wonderful, wonderful horror. And when you read it now, it's kind 453 00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:38,119 of interesting because it's like what we understand has shifted so much. Like I 454 00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:41,839 think he's wonderful, and then I also think that he's got some serious problems 455 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:48,119 with like the magical Negro theme, right, yes, the appropriation of some 456 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,720 indigenous stories that he's used in the past. So there's there's yeah, that's 457 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,559 that's pretty true. But there are fun stories, and you know some of 458 00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:00,640 them have like more of that problem than others. But yes, like so, 459 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,039 but there's this what do we call them, an organization called the Shop, 460 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,440 which he invented for some of his stories. And apparently I played a 461 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,799 minor role in The Stand, which I didn't read, so I don't know 462 00:32:10,839 --> 00:32:15,799 how it comes out in the Stand. But the Shop, in Stephen King's 463 00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:19,920 invention, was basically, you know, they started in the late sixties and 464 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:28,440 they were like cointelpro but with kind of magic, supernatural, mad scientist kind 465 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:36,079 of stuff. And so in Firestarter, for example, the two parents who 466 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,279 create this little girl who can start fires with her mind, those two parents 467 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,920 went through the series of psychedelic experiments that the Shop organized, and they became 468 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:52,000 permanently altered, very mk ultra. I mean, it's pretty gnarly. And 469 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:57,359 then the thing is they then make a baby, and then this baby, 470 00:32:57,519 --> 00:33:01,079 because she's got two parents who are all ready like super altered, then of 471 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:06,319 course the baby is just extra altered and extra powerful, and she's the one 472 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:10,319 who can make start fires with her mind. And so I thought, well, 473 00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:14,880 what if, what if it was kind of like the shop and but 474 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:20,279 they were explicitly going after uh, going after the movement, because that's exactly 475 00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:23,839 what co intel Pro did, And so that was just it was a really 476 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,519 delicious possibility and I kind of might want to return to it because you know, 477 00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:32,359 we know how much co intel Pro did at the time, like we 478 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,160 know now, yeah, and I'm sure there's even more that we don't. 479 00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:39,119 Don't exactly, Yeah, there's stuff that will you know, like maybe people 480 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,880 are dead and they and they might have taken their stories to the grave. 481 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,720 But you know, so it was really fun to write that and to also 482 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:52,079 write, you know, again the possibility of the tables getting turned on on 483 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:58,279 this guy, and also to wrestle with like what about ordinary people in the 484 00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:02,160 movement, you know, or in the time that the that the story is 485 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,880 set, the Nightmare Box is set. You know, a lot of people 486 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,800 really felt like a revolution was coming any day now, and there were a 487 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,679 lot of ordinary people who work revolutionaries, but who still were maybe trying to 488 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:16,320 figure out the right thing to do, and so that's who kind of Serena 489 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:22,360 is'. She rolls her eyes at those people. She thinks they're ridiculous, 490 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,280 but she still has to figure out, Okay, well what do I owe 491 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,480 you? Even though I think you're silly and I think you're full of shit 492 00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:31,280 when you're talking about changing the world? Yes, yes, and that and 493 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:37,039 just seeing her like realize was it was. I mean, yeah, that 494 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,440 was a very very fun read. And the thing she can do scary, 495 00:34:40,599 --> 00:34:46,840 very scary. I would watch that movie. I would love for someone to 496 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,079 make it into a movie. And I guess that's what we all daydream about, 497 00:34:50,119 --> 00:34:53,119 right, is those of us who write stuff who could be that movie 498 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,760 or who could be in that movie? Sometimes I like to daydream about who 499 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,440 would play her if it were made movie? And I think I like Jenn 500 00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:06,360 Ortega. Okay, okay, yes, I see it. Why was I 501 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,840 going to say the same thing? Yes, yeah, she's a right but 502 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,800 she also has such emotional range. There's also I forget her name, but 503 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,719 the woman who played in West Side Story, the woman who plays Anita Arianna 504 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,920 Debo's. She plays Anita, the older sister in a West Side Story, 505 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,920 and she's just mesmerizing like that would be fun too. Because the character Serena 506 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,519 in the story is like part Puerto Rican. It's not really clear like how 507 00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:36,800 many generations back, but there's Puerto Rican and Mexican in there too, and 508 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,480 like there's African American in there too. I also, I should mention because 509 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:45,519 this is it was so much fun to write her making the nightmares and the 510 00:35:45,559 --> 00:35:51,559 magic, even if it was really scary and nary, that I wrote a 511 00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:59,960 whole novella that is about another witch, very similar and takes place in a 512 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:02,840 same place in time, and I wrote it that they're basically cousins but they 513 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,760 don't know it. This sounds amazus amazing. And the character of the they 514 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:14,840 basically had the same magical tutor. She's the great aunt in this one in 515 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:19,159 the Nightmare Box, and she's the grandma in this other novella called Monca, 516 00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:25,840 And in both cases she's like the magical tutor, and she doesn't she doesn't 517 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:30,519 have any conventional morality. She's like, you know, I don't I don't 518 00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:34,239 care what you do with the magical powers. Just keep it over there, 519 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,639 right, And so she's kind of a foil to the other characters. But 520 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,920 it was so much fun to write, like, you know, a spell 521 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,880 that could make you dance, or a spell that could turn you silent, 522 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:47,559 or just different things like that and kind of play with reality a little bit 523 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,360 that, Yeah, that sounds super cool. Another thing that like, I 524 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:59,119 the way you wrote her name's Serena right the in the night. Yeah, 525 00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:02,280 like her, yes, the witch, her attitude, and like up until 526 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,119 the end is something that it was very real all over the world because in 527 00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:10,559 nineteen seventies it wasn't just the US. I was seeing these movements. But 528 00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:15,880 like something Carmen and I talk about a little too much is the Salvador in 529 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,840 civil war because that's where our dad's from from Salvador and the civil war. 530 00:37:20,039 --> 00:37:22,920 I mean it was like, you know, these the right wing military junta 531 00:37:23,119 --> 00:37:27,400 and then the leftist revolutionaries, but then it were there were the people in 532 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,920 the city that were just trying to work, including our father who all the 533 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,519 time, and there's just like this huge mindset that it was like, oh, 534 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,480 both sides were wrong, both sides of this, both sides did horrible 535 00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:44,519 things, when like in reality we know that a lot of the human rights 536 00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:47,800 violations that occurred during that war were perpetated by the right wing government that was 537 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,000 there. But people are like our dad, and it wasn't just him, 538 00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:57,239 but this was such a common attitude. But it was like, I don't 539 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,719 care what is happening. I'm just like trying to survive. I'm just trying 540 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,719 to work. Because there's like obviously there's the people that feel like they need 541 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,440 to take up arms because they're being affected to the most. But then there's 542 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,280 the people that are like, I'm not worried about that. I'm just trying. 543 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,719 I need to live too, Like I need to worry about me, 544 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,559 and it's not you like I understand it, of course. And just to 545 00:38:17,599 --> 00:38:22,280 see her and I just saw that story like the same thing that our day 546 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:27,360 tell us in her and I was like, man, this is it's it's 547 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,039 true, and it happens everywhere where. There's like movements like this going on. 548 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,960 That is so cool. I what's funny is I swear I'm a lot 549 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,519 more articulate on the page, And then I get I get, you know, 550 00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:42,280 like in a context of a podcast or a conversation, and all of 551 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,280 a sudden, I get that's cool. I get like Chris Farley inside of 552 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:51,480 nightlife. But we're the same way, even though we have a podcast feel 553 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,480 that way to me. But it's really beautiful to hear you say that, 554 00:38:55,599 --> 00:39:01,519 Christina, because it's just that's an angle in particular, like what was going 555 00:39:01,519 --> 00:39:07,800 on in that I wasn't even thinking about when I wrote it, but that 556 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,079 it had that level of meaning is super is super rich and meaningful. And 557 00:39:13,159 --> 00:39:16,000 also that your situation was able you know that you're able to connect that, 558 00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:21,400 and yet they also had in one common threat is that in both cases it's 559 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:27,039 US imperialism straight up. Yes, yes, yes, Like I love the 560 00:39:27,119 --> 00:39:31,599 idea honestly of serena kind of you know, meeting up with other people around 561 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:37,119 the world who have US imperialism as their enemy. She will never rest. 562 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,960 We're not four seven, three sixty five days a year to be like, 563 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:50,039 man, I take a bigge. She's sober out. I mean, I 564 00:39:50,039 --> 00:39:53,960 feel like you can't go anywhere that has not been touched by imperialism. So 565 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,760 yeah, I think it would be a shorter list of countries that the US 566 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:04,679 has never invaded or fomented a coup in, or you know, sent soldiers 567 00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:07,920 to, right, Like I think, you know, I'm just trying as 568 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,480 I'm talking I'm trying to go okay, wait, okay, no, nope, 569 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,719 never mind because they had that invasion, oh never mind. Like it's 570 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:22,079 just it's almost impossible. Yeah, Like the collective anger of people who have 571 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:28,840 been invaded and taken over and messed with is just like there's so much there 572 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,760 that that's that could be a whole that could be a whole bunch of different 573 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:37,239 authors careers to tap into that. It really could, Yeah, and I 574 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:42,880 would read every single one of them. Yeah, that would be There are 575 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,239 there Salvadoran authors who you've read, who you admire, who kind of tap 576 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:52,360 into that in one way or another, you know, not that I can 577 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,639 think of on the top of my head. I know there's there's people that 578 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,719 will talk about it in different ways on how like the US, you know, 579 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,719 imperialism are cooling some like these things who have affected their lives, But 580 00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:06,920 like when it comes to like horror, I don't know of any There's a 581 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,199 book I think Carmen and I both really loved it, but it was also 582 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:14,800 very sad. But it's like a poet he wrote about his journey from end 583 00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,920 to the United States. That has probably been the most like impactful thing I've 584 00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:23,280 read from a Selvadoran writer. It's called and I think we went on and 585 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,519 on about it on Estodias Unknown, Yeah, and the Spooky Tales about our 586 00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:30,400 other podcasts that's about history. I forget where we even talked about it in 587 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,760 some episode, but that is probably, yeah, one of the best, 588 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,800 like books by a Selvadorn author. But like, I don't, I don't. 589 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,840 I can't even think of that many authors and I looked it up on 590 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,920 the Google. Javier Samora is that the name. Yeah, there has to 591 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:51,079 be more that you know, just hasn't hasn't come across you know, our 592 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,840 radar, because that was one of the things that I started realizing when I 593 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,599 started reading a whole lot more speculative fiction, you know, mostly horror, 594 00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:04,159 but to see in science fiction too is how I assumed, you know, 595 00:42:04,199 --> 00:42:07,760 and this was a straight up you know, internalized racism. I assumed, 596 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,800 Oh, well, if I haven't heard of, say, Filipino science fiction, 597 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,760 that must be because it doesn't exist. No, it's just because I 598 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,360 haven't heard of it. But you know, I had to actually, right, 599 00:42:19,559 --> 00:42:22,760 but I had to confront that any of it straight up is internalized racism. 600 00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:27,159 And so I assumed that yes, there is like a lot of good 601 00:42:27,159 --> 00:42:29,960 Salvador in speculative fiction. And the fact as soon as we're done recording, 602 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,920 in about three minutes after we're done recording, all the names are going to 603 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:37,119 occur to me all that once. There are some really yeah, I mean 604 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:42,480 there's some wonderful authors of like Chicanis and Latinix speculative fiction. All the names 605 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,480 are of course, you know, draining away like water because I have to 606 00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:47,760 speak them. But you know, I was just at Sukra Con, which 607 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,960 is the horror Writer's convention, and we have PEDROI Nigaz, we have uh 608 00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:57,000 Andrew Theyer just to come to the come to mind. There's Rsa Garcia, 609 00:42:57,559 --> 00:43:00,800 uh, and then of course there's those who have already come onto the podcast 610 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,519 or whose stories have been on the podcast. You got Varcia to write about 611 00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:13,360 the Mexican experience and the Castro to write about the Chicana experience. Oh yes, 612 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,760 she's like, you know, the the MVP basically of ch kind of 613 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:21,360 speculative fiction, because she just not only does she go there again and again 614 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,880 in terms of like the because I'm thinking about La Rena Laics, which is 615 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,840 just oh, I still have to read that one. Read that one amazing, 616 00:43:30,519 --> 00:43:34,480 gnarly as fuck. I need to read it, to read it. 617 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,400 I've only the one we discussed. The Hanta Alexandra is the one that I've 618 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,679 read of hers, and you know, one thing she she has a lot 619 00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:44,800 of similarities in her books too, And that was one thing I was going 620 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:46,599 to bring up with your books to that A lot of people are like, 621 00:43:46,639 --> 00:43:50,519 oh, well, I read fiction to escape from these kinds of things. 622 00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,559 But it's like, at some point does not escape. I mean, there 623 00:43:53,599 --> 00:44:00,840 is an escape when when you're the person benefiting from it from yeah, oppressions, 624 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,039 like you can escape because it doesn't affect you. But I mean, 625 00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:09,159 you know, for us people of color, like yeah, every day you 626 00:44:09,199 --> 00:44:14,159 know, yeah, it's didn't escapable. So yeah, and to see these 627 00:44:14,199 --> 00:44:17,480 stories and the things that like, yeah, I don't I guess like if 628 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:21,320 I see it on the news or if I know someone and I don't want 629 00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,519 to think about the time that the cop did this to one of us or 630 00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:28,039 one of our cousins. But but at the same time, when you're reading 631 00:44:28,079 --> 00:44:30,320 things like this, it's like you get to see a different twist on it, 632 00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:35,000 You get to see something that's powerful. Yeah, it's powerful. Thank 633 00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:37,800 you, Carmen, because you're always like thinking of smarter ways to say the 634 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,400 things that I want to say. But yeah, and so at the same 635 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,800 time, if people are thinking like, oh, I don't want to read 636 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,760 a fiction book that is talking about the real life things that I don't want 637 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,840 to think about, give these type of books like another chance, especially these 638 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,519 collection of stories, because you like I feel, I feel like every issue 639 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:58,239 out there, you're tackling it and you're giving it a new life and something 640 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,400 that you know it just it makes you feel better at the end, even 641 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,679 though it was kind of sad along the way, right, I love that 642 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,000 way of talking about it because and I'm sorry by my dog is decided that 643 00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:10,199 right now is the time to bark at the front door. So I hope 644 00:45:10,199 --> 00:45:15,320 it doesn't carry it through too bovey. But I mean, I think a 645 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:20,400 couple of things. One is, I totally get why you know, someone 646 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,559 doesn't necessarily feel ready to tackle the story about police brutality right now because it's 647 00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:30,679 just too heavy for my part. I feel like I feel similar I mean, 648 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:34,599 obviously I wrote them right, but I feel similarly that that there is 649 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:39,239 actually a whole a benefit to seeing well, what would happen if the victims 650 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:44,239 had access to power, Like, you know, how would that change it? 651 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,119 And wouldn't that be kind of satisfying and maybe even kind of fun? 652 00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,320 So, you know, I feel like that is kind of a counter. 653 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,159 On the other hand, you know, we have content warnings, you know, 654 00:45:54,199 --> 00:45:58,639 so you read the content warnings. It is a little hard to read 655 00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:04,679 this collection and not tackle police brutality stories because depending on how you define it, 656 00:46:04,679 --> 00:46:08,159 it's basically exactly half the collection is police brutality in one way or another. 657 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:14,800 And you know, some of them are real stories that I remember hearing 658 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,719 about, like the one at the end of the road out of Nowhere, 659 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,679 that's you know, I changed a few details, but it's basically other than 660 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:24,039 that, it's a real story. And including the part about the dollar bill 661 00:46:24,079 --> 00:46:29,119 that's real. Oh yeah, that part I just lifted directly from reality. 662 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,199 And I remember thinking, like I have to. I felt like this has 663 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:37,000 to be real, because you can't. Yeah, I remember being afraid that 664 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,519 somebody would think I made it up, the whole dollar bill thing, So 665 00:46:40,559 --> 00:46:45,199 that's why I made sure to put the note at the end. So and 666 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,360 then you know, when I when I was younger I was. I was 667 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,280 an activistic inst police brutality, which is part of the reason why they're in 668 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,119 these stories so much. The cops are in these stories so much, and 669 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,199 just the feeling of absolute powerlessness and having I would work with people who, 670 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,440 just like in the story with sold in the Rope of Thorns, had lost 671 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,679 a love with cops. Oh my god, Okay, I love that one. 672 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:14,960 And the ending that was I feel like I'm just gonna keep saying that, 673 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:19,840 and the ending I feel like to write and to you know, like 674 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,199 the ending is actually the most important thing because if you fumble it at the 675 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:29,440 very very end, people will be like, oh, like and and you 676 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:30,599 don't want to do that. You want to you want to deliver ending. 677 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:35,440 That's that that makes it makes the person either like you know, sometimes it's 678 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,440 extremely painful, but the ending has to has to be earned and you have 679 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:43,800 to deliver at the end. And the ending of the Rope Thorns, obviously 680 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,000 you know we're not going to say how it gets tackled, but the ending 681 00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:51,360 was very satisfying to write, and so I'm so glad that it landed for 682 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,400 you on the page that way too. I forgot to mention that was another 683 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,039 one of my favorites. I just I loved I'm like, I want a 684 00:47:58,039 --> 00:48:01,559 little like toy of we done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think 685 00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:06,599 it would be so much fun. Like he's kind of his image his look 686 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,519 came from an actual puppet that I had, and I don't know what the 687 00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:10,960 hell happened to it orf I lost it, and so I'm very sad. 688 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,920 So every once in a while I tried to like google it to see because 689 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,199 you know, I bought it in Mexico. It's a you know, like 690 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:22,239 a head of a coconut, you know, have coconut shell on the body 691 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,519 of like paper machet and black and paper machet, and so I do want 692 00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:28,480 to track that down. But it would be so much fun to have a 693 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,400 little weeks though, But it was also so much fun, you know, 694 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,280 and this is a mild spoiler, so we can turn your ears away, 695 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,280 But it was so much fun to have a different to imagine something different for 696 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,960 those families who had lost a loved one, because in real life, those 697 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:45,280 people never have had any justice. And you know, I would march with 698 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:50,880 them, We would have marches against police brutality, and I would be On 699 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,800 the one hand, it felt so good and empowering to be standing up and 700 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,400 fighting back. But on the other hand, at the end of the day 701 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,960 they would do all that and not only was there loved one is still gone, 702 00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:02,599 but you know, the cop who had had done the killing was still 703 00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:08,199 there and had that job. And so it felt as a young person, 704 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,440 it was just so scarring, frankly, and so this was kind of a 705 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,400 way to put a different ball on that scars on those scars. Yeah, 706 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,599 and it was beautifully done, because I want to say it just happened. 707 00:49:20,599 --> 00:49:24,039 But Carmen covered on our other podcast Estoia Has Are Known a while back. 708 00:49:24,119 --> 00:49:31,480 She covered an episode on it was his name Santos Rodriguez, and it's it 709 00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:37,880 was such a horrible case of police brutality in Texas where you know, I 710 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,440 mean, I'm not gonna like fully go into it because there's a whole episode 711 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,880 on it and it's going to be long, but it's it's such a horrible 712 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,559 case. But basically the you know, this cop he killed this young boy, 713 00:49:49,639 --> 00:49:52,559 this young Mexican boy, and his brother was in the car when it 714 00:49:52,599 --> 00:49:55,159 happened, and like at the end of the day, there's you know, 715 00:49:55,639 --> 00:50:00,119 surviving family that they they are still dealing with this, and this happen in 716 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:05,400 what was it the nineteen eighties, nineties, nineteen seventy three, nineteen seventy 717 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:10,599 three, and one of the people that listened to the episode sent us a 718 00:50:10,679 --> 00:50:15,320 post that because they had a whole they made a whole statue for him not 719 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,960 too long ago to like, you know, have Santos in everyone's like memory, 720 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,000 and the brother visited the statue for the first time, and this listener 721 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,760 sent us the post that they made about this, and like just and it's 722 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,320 funny because I'm like reading all these stories and I'm like, man, like 723 00:50:29,679 --> 00:50:32,440 we just this listener just sent us this, and it's like something that has 724 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,480 like never gone away, and like will it ever not when you know this 725 00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:40,840 curtain system is still what it is. So just to read you know, 726 00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,079 a different even you know, even though it's like you know, fiction, 727 00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,719 just to read a different like outcome, it's it feels good, it does, 728 00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,199 And I'm very glad that it feels good to read, because it felt 729 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:57,280 it felt good to write. And I love actually imagining who I would sick 730 00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:06,800 with sol On if he were real Mack in my list as we speaks, 731 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:08,280 because that's what he's good at right, Like he leaves no trace, like, 732 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:12,159 and what are you gonna do? Say, I saw this good come 733 00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:16,840 out and you know then they killed, like's gonna believe I was going because 734 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,599 that's what they do in real life, the cops. That's what Yeah, 735 00:51:20,760 --> 00:51:22,519 that's what they say. Yeah, yeah, they just count on it. 736 00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:27,000 So so yeah, that was. That was one of the more recent ones 737 00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:29,760 that I wrote. I think that was. I wrote that, like I 738 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:34,199 think I was like frantically finishing editing that when it was time to submit the 739 00:51:34,199 --> 00:51:37,800 collection to the publisher, and I almost missed the cutoff, but I've said 740 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,480 no, no, no, I have, I have, and we're so 741 00:51:40,599 --> 00:51:49,000 glad I made it. Yeah, okay, well I guess we could wrap 742 00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:51,960 up because I'm getting a little hungry. Wait, I just want to say 743 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:53,920 one more thing I was gonna say. Yeah, I just like I love 744 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:58,480 the recurring theme, like you said, of people I don't know, taking 745 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,559 their power back, having power in society that they you know, had to 746 00:52:02,559 --> 00:52:07,719 fight so hard to have that, and it's it's almost healing in a way. 747 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,679 I think to read stories like that with different outcomes and I don't things 748 00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,519 that people are every day working for, right it's not like impossible, like 749 00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:22,039 people are fighting to have that. I really love that that that feels good 750 00:52:22,079 --> 00:52:27,199 to read and that it feels like healing is because we walk outside and you 751 00:52:27,199 --> 00:52:30,039 know, maybe we spend all this work trying to have like a nice calm 752 00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:32,199 morning before going out into the world, and then we walk outside and we 753 00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,519 have to see it all over again, or how we didn't even need that. 754 00:52:35,519 --> 00:52:38,559 We could just open up our phone right or our laptop and scroll through, 755 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:43,760 and you know, we're constantly getting these scars inflicted on us, and 756 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:49,119 so it's it's really good to have different ways to heal and to think that 757 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:54,599 these stories had their part to play, like it's really satisfying. And I 758 00:52:54,599 --> 00:52:58,480 feel like I'm not sure. I think we'd sol would be like, okay, 759 00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,559 cool, and I think some of the other kids we should be like 760 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:13,239 that's whateful. So they all think all the characters, yes, okay, 761 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,119 And then before we go, we always want to do spooky recommendations. Carmen, 762 00:53:17,159 --> 00:53:22,719 do you have any I don't think so other than this book. Other 763 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,599 than this book that's mine too. I've already ordered it. It is so 764 00:53:25,639 --> 00:53:31,400 awesome and I'm also I'm changing the release schedule, So this comes out this 765 00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:37,199 Friday, because it releases on the ninth, right, Okay, so yes, 766 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,519 this is going to come out on Friday and then the week after everyone. 767 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,760 I mean, you can already pre order it at the time real listening 768 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,679 to this and you must. It's so good, like I already did it. 769 00:53:46,159 --> 00:53:50,159 And also, I guess, do you have any spooky recommendations because we've 770 00:53:50,159 --> 00:53:52,360 already read. I wish i'd compared, because I'm staring at a whole shelf 771 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:57,760 of books right now and they're all really good. But in terms of this, 772 00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:02,840 so there's a a collection called The Skin Thief by a writer named Susan 773 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:07,920 Palambo, and I've only had time to read two of them because I sort 774 00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,280 of nibble at it and then put it back away and then nibble at it 775 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:14,039 again. But one of the things that I love about the collection so far 776 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:19,519 is she tackles a lot of similar themes of identity and what it is to 777 00:54:19,559 --> 00:54:23,199 be a marginalized person. And the whole concept of The skin Thief is to 778 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:28,840 have your identity be taken from you and then what does that do to you? 779 00:54:29,639 --> 00:54:32,119 And so it's a really I haven't finished it, but it's a really 780 00:54:32,199 --> 00:54:37,320 enjoyable collection so far. So I would recommend recommend that for sure, and 781 00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:42,880 then if you like more, just if you love like dark berry tamps, 782 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,039 this is a little bit of a deeper cut. But Angela Carter wrote this 783 00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:50,679 book. Oh boy, she wrote a lot of books and now I'm trying 784 00:54:50,679 --> 00:54:55,760 to remember the name of the particular collection that I'm thinking of, because she 785 00:54:57,119 --> 00:55:02,119 wrote a take on the Lizzie Borden story that was just so much fun. 786 00:55:02,199 --> 00:55:07,800 Like when you read the end of her Lizzie Bordon story, you will absolutely 787 00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:13,119 like cheer on Lizzie Bordon. You'll be convinced that Lizzy Bordon did the killing. 788 00:55:14,599 --> 00:55:16,920 I was kind of a ready story and you're like, oh my god, 789 00:55:17,119 --> 00:55:20,679 go girl. I mean not quite as it's a little bit of a 790 00:55:20,679 --> 00:55:23,639 cliche that you go girl, but you definitely will have a lot of sympathy 791 00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,960 for Lizzie Bordon and you will feel like the parents deserve what they got. 792 00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:31,719 So so yeah, it's It's The Bloody Chamber is the most famous book that 793 00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:36,440 she wrote. But I will look up into the second the one that has 794 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:39,320 the Lizzy the Lizzie Bordon story, because I think it's a different collection. 795 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,599 Yeah, so the skin Thief and Angela Carter. I'm going to add those 796 00:55:44,679 --> 00:55:49,719 both to my TV are the other cool thing Dimensioned. If you are thinking 797 00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,639 about pre ordering, if anyone who's listening, is if you ordered directly from 798 00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:59,280 the publisher from Kurs Morse Press, you also get this little zine that I 799 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:05,679 helped edit that is on the scene of Solidarity Forever, and it's all about 800 00:56:05,679 --> 00:56:08,679 that theme, right, is the power of solidarity. And so that's a 801 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:13,760 free little gift that you get if you sweets. I did pre order it. 802 00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,679 Stress on the Polisher I'm excited. Action that I was thinking of was 803 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:21,880 called Saints and Strangers, and the story about the z Boord is called the 804 00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:25,159 Fall River Experters. Okay, okay, I'm going to have to add that 805 00:56:25,199 --> 00:56:29,440 to my list too, and I will put all that in the show notes 806 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,280 as well. But most importantly that will be in their show notes is the 807 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:37,480 link to get the Nimer Box and other stories, because honestly, it's a 808 00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:39,679 must read and I'm pretty sure all of our listeners would enjoy it. We 809 00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:45,360 did get messages about the Shivering World and how it was like a couple, 810 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:50,400 but the people that I did get it loved the Shivering World. So this 811 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,079 this book also amazing, so everyone needs to get it. It's so good, 812 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,079 Thank you very much, yes, of course. And then one more 813 00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:01,559 thing. Is there any that listeners can find you, like where you want 814 00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:05,960 to be found online? If they want to follow you or anything? If 815 00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,000 I want to be found if it sounds very like uh, you know, 816 00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:15,719 Jason, I stole it from Scam Gods. I love that name. She 817 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,440 always says that it's fun. It's about scams. Oh, I am obsessed 818 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,400 with scams, okay, And it's and she's a comedian and she always has 819 00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:27,800 comedians on. And some episodes are so funny. If anyone has not listened 820 00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,920 and they need to, you need to check out the Eladia Baldwin episode. 821 00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:34,440 That's probably my favorite one. Also like the one on Oh my God, 822 00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,840 I can't remember his real name, but they call him so many different nicknames. 823 00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:45,199 Oh you know, ye want to say his real name because I know 824 00:57:45,239 --> 00:57:51,000 what it is. I remember what it is. But yes, oh that's 825 00:57:51,079 --> 00:57:55,280 right, you those okay. Eladia Bodowin and the Shaun King episodes are probably 826 00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:59,679 like on the top of like the best episodes of Scam Goddess ever, the 827 00:58:00,119 --> 00:58:02,199 really good so I will look that up, because I really do. I 828 00:58:02,239 --> 00:58:07,920 love reading about scams and scam artists. So yeah, so that's all of 829 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,039 fun. So in terms of where people can find so, I have a 830 00:58:10,079 --> 00:58:15,559 website that I almost never update because I am kind of a luddite and I'm 831 00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:20,159 kind of an old but I do have one. It's called Cynthia SA's boo 832 00:58:20,239 --> 00:58:23,800 dot org press and there's a link tree there where you can find my writings 833 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,840 and everyone's in a blue mood. I actually update it, but for the 834 00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:30,400 most part, I just curse at it. I try to figure out why 835 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:35,480 it doesn't work the way it's supposed to. And all right, I guess 836 00:58:35,519 --> 00:58:38,000 this brings us to the end of the episode. Let's say, before we 837 00:58:38,039 --> 00:58:42,679 go, Carmen and I will be oh my god, it's coming up. 838 00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,840 Carmen, Damn, did you book the car rental? I still need to 839 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,800 get the carnal. Carmen and I we're going to be in Denver. We're 840 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,760 gonna be at the True Crime Paranormal Podcast Festival, and you can find us 841 00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,400 there. We're gonna have a little panel, and that little panel is also 842 00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,840 going to be online. I think I'll double check that and I will share 843 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:02,480 the links in the socials as well, because I think I think if I 844 00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:06,760 recall that it was going to be available for like a virtual ticket if anyone 845 00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,039 wants to do that, but if anyone is in the area and you want 846 00:59:09,079 --> 00:59:13,519 to go do so that we can meet you. We can say Hi, 847 00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:15,559 I'm gonna have a couple of stickers to hand out, and that's it. 848 00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:21,800 I don't know how people have all this like extra Monday for merriage not I 849 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,440 oh before we go though, I forgot to say. But I obviously I 850 00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,239 knew that Oakland was going to come up again. But then I saw Modesto 851 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:31,719 in the book, and I was like, oh my god, Modesto because 852 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,199 that's that's where we went. And so we grew up in Oakland, and 853 00:59:36,239 --> 00:59:38,960 then when we reached like high school age, we moved to Modesto because and 854 00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,480 I think we talked about it last time we recorded, but we got like, 855 00:59:42,519 --> 00:59:45,320 you know, pushed out of Oakland because of all the high renting prices, 856 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,239 and that's when we went to Modesto. So when I saw Modesto come 857 00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,760 up in one of the stories, I'm like, the two places that I 858 00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,039 like still love to talk about. And I know people like to hit him 859 00:59:53,039 --> 00:59:59,039 modesto, but I have fund memories, so every time we hear modesto or 860 00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:02,800 like anything, and I like two O nine, that's so stocked in. 861 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,480 Did Starck thing come up too? I think it did, right, Remember 862 01:00:06,519 --> 01:00:08,199 Stockton? Did I know Madesta did it? It's where it's where the family 863 01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,800 and in will they disappeared like because they're always bopping around. But yeah, 864 01:00:14,559 --> 01:00:16,519 I remember that. We talked about your your roots in Oakland, and it's 865 01:00:16,519 --> 01:00:21,199 why I was really happy to come back here on this pod because we had 866 01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:27,360 such cool conversations about Oakland and what it means and the history here and so 867 01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:30,000 it's so much fun. Also, by the way, I've been meaning to 868 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:34,360 mention this the whole time we've been recording. Uh, Christina, the painting 869 01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,760 that you have. Listeners can't see it, but behind Christina is just this 870 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:45,400 wonderful painting still from Scream from the first Scream, and it's Yeah, it's 871 01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:50,800 a brilliant Stew And you know they're they're they're You've got Stew gazing lovingly at 872 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:58,480 Billy just the way he does. They're cuddling bloody. Yeah, it's the 873 01:00:58,519 --> 01:01:05,559 oldest child for Alma from Nightmare on Fifth Street paint today, and then she 874 01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:08,719 on my made it available for a while to buy, and I don't think 875 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:12,719 they have it up anymore. But when the minute she put it up, 876 01:01:12,719 --> 01:01:15,639 I'm like, I need it. Yes, and it's yes, it's it's 877 01:01:15,679 --> 01:01:21,599 it's so well done and look blowing eyes. Yeah. And it's funny the 878 01:01:21,599 --> 01:01:23,159 things we pick up on, because I did not pick up on any of 879 01:01:23,199 --> 01:01:27,159 that homerootic stuff the first time I watched it. And then I watched it 880 01:01:27,159 --> 01:01:30,159 again a couple of years ago, and I was like, it was right 881 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:37,239 there. I I caught it when Scary Movie made it. Yeah, h 882 01:01:37,239 --> 01:01:40,440 no, Scary Movie two. It's the two, which was the one that 883 01:01:40,519 --> 01:01:45,440 was the first one. It's the first one. It's the first movie. 884 01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:49,400 Yeah. Yeah, where they Yeah, they make they make them like super 885 01:01:49,519 --> 01:01:54,039 good. They make that big leap. Oh man, No it's not it's 886 01:01:54,079 --> 01:01:57,360 really not. Okay, Well, I want to take him up any more 887 01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,880 of your time and also my own, because I gotta get to being to 888 01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,159 record. Thank you so much for having me and for letting me babbel about 889 01:02:04,159 --> 01:02:08,480 Oakland and stories and magic and the supernatural for an hour. Listen anytime anything 890 01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:13,880 you ever write, come welcome back always you know what, you know, 891 01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:15,599 what you must. It's not even like you're welcome, like it just has 892 01:02:15,639 --> 01:02:20,400 to happen. Anytime you send something this is open horror back. I'm like, 893 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:24,920 yeah, let's do it's right now, say no more. I have 894 01:02:24,960 --> 01:02:30,360 a have a novella and she's coming out at some point because I'm sending her 895 01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:32,880 out. And I'm confident that at some point when Yaka will find a home 896 01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:37,639 that's the one that I was mentioning about witchcraft again. So if and when 897 01:02:37,679 --> 01:02:39,159 when Yaka friends it home, I will I will hit you guys up and 898 01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:44,280 we'll talk about okay when it does for sure, for sure, all right, 899 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,159 thank you so much, yes, of course, no, thank you, 900 01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,400 And everyone else I don't know, say it's spooky. We'll catch you 901 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:59,159 next time. By My Spooky Sales is hosted by Christina and MJ, produced 902 01:02:59,159 --> 01:03:05,199 and edited by Christina. Everything is written and researched by Christina MJ and with 903 01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,880 the help of Don Shout Out Don. Thank you so much for your help. 904 01:03:08,519 --> 01:03:13,360 If you love what you hear, consider living us a five star review. 905 01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,840 If you don't, then do not leave us anything please. If you 906 01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:21,280 want short spooky stories, follow us on TikTok at Spooky Taels. You can 907 01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,119 also find some of the same videos posted on Instagram and that is at Spooky 908 01:03:24,119 --> 01:03:28,480 Taels. Everything is linked in the show notes. If you want bonus episodes, 909 01:03:28,639 --> 01:03:32,039 stickers, exclusives, stickers might I add, then consider joining our patreon 910 01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:37,800 go over to patreon dot com slash Spooky Tails. There are over at least 911 01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,480 fifteen bonus episodes right now, and we do at least one a month, 912 01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:47,000 sometimes two, depending on how we are feeling. If you want to support 913 01:03:47,199 --> 01:03:52,719 the podcast and don't or can't or don't want to, that's fine. Join 914 01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:55,920 the Patreon, then consider getting some merch. We have an adorable beanie that 915 01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,360 I love. I absolutely adore it. It's so comfy, it's warm, 916 01:04:00,679 --> 01:04:04,880 it has a spooky in Old English letters. There's also a baseball hat in 917 01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:08,679 the same way as spooky and Old English letters, and that's what I wear 918 01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:12,079 in the summers. They're both awesome hats. And there's other things in there, 919 01:04:12,199 --> 01:04:15,039 like the no Mama's shirts, which is a very popular shirt. If 920 01:04:15,079 --> 01:04:18,760 you like history, check out my other podcast, Istodia is Unknown, hosted 921 01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:24,400 with the unofficial official guest co host of a Spooky teals Carmen, and if 922 01:04:24,400 --> 01:04:29,079 you like no VELAs, checkout Novelaskofizito, which Carmen and I also host together. 923 01:04:29,559 --> 01:04:32,039 And yeah, we love every single listen every single a spooky thank you 924 01:04:32,079 --> 01:04:33,960 so much, stay as spooky