Hey guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today about
a way that you can help support the podcast. If you're not already,
we would really appreciate it if you guys went and reviewed us on Apple or
Spotify. Those reviews really help people find the podcast and help it get recognized,
and you know, if you've been enjoying the show, we really appreciate
your support. Another thing that you can do to support the channel is to
become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that started just five dollars
a month, and when you sign up, you get access to all of
our episodes add free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean,
we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this is the
biggest and best way that you can support the Teamhouse channel and podcast if you'd
like to, and we really appreciate that. So go and check us out
at patreon dot com. Slash the Teamhouse, Special Operations, Cobert SB and
the Team House with your Hopes, Jack Murphy and David Bark, Everybody,
I'm Dave Park Coach, Jack Murphy, d Behind the Wheel our producer.
Tonight, this episode two of the Team House. Welcome our guest, Rick
Kaiser, author of the book frog Man's Stories. Rick, we really appreciate
you being here tonight. Oh hey, thanks very much for having me.
I appreciate it. Yeah. And real quick, before we get to it,
we just want to do a quick plug for our Patreon. Yeah,
guys, if you can check out our Patreon, there's a link down in
the description, and those of you who support the channel, you get all
these episodes add free. And we really appreciate you guys supporting us and keeping
this machine running. So yeah, check it out the links down the description.
So, Rick, back to you very storied career in the Seal Teams,
and what's your origin story, Like, how did you grow up and
what eventually led you to the Navy. Wow. So, I was born
and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, or Oak Creek actually a little south of
Milwaukee, a little suburb suburb, and I was one of five kids.
You know, I have two brothers and two sisters, and I don't know,
I guess I really didn't have a whole lot of connection to the military.
My dad, dad, served in the Army Reserve in the fifties.
Didn't really talk about it. Too much. I already had. I had
this fascination with the water, and I always watched Jack Coustille An undersea World
of Jack Whustelle. Right, so I was like, I want to join
the Navy and go on a submarine, you know, just like Jack Hustille.
And I went into the recruiter's office and this is I was like,
I was like the best recruiting guy you could ever have. Right, So
I was sixteen years old because I knew I was going to graduate when I
was seventeen, and I walked into the recruiter's office and I said, I'm
going to join, right, So he didn't have to do anything, right,
I just walked in, Hey, I'm going to join the Navy.
Yes, I had this pamphlet on his desk about Navy seals because I fully
intended to join to be a submariner. You know. Later and later on
in life, I was spent a lot of time on submarines, and I'm
so glad, but just you know, I hit my head so many times
on the overhead I can't even tell you. So anyway, I had this
pamphlet about Navy seals and I took it home and I studied it, and
I said, this is really cool, you know, Okay, jump and
I can dive and I can shoot and I can be cool guy. And
I said, this is what I want to do. And I didn't have
a clue what I was getting into, and that's how it all started.
It's funny that you mentioned summaries because I think that as a kid, especially
like watching Jack Gusteau, you think that all submarines are going to have those
big bubble windows and you can you can see the sea floor, the wildlife.
And that's not what the submarine service is like at all, is it.
No, it's not. It's not like with any sealed diving is like
either. I can't tell you how many times people have asked me to go
diving and I said, no, I don't. I hate diving because it's
always at night, right, So I never saw anything. It was just
miserably cold and I would have hit my head on pilings as we were diving
along, and it was just like this, this is no fun at all.
So yeah, the undersea world turned out not being so fun. Yeah,
that's funny. So tell us about like your enlistment. You know,
you you obviously you go through basic and then digit did they send you to
an A I T Or did you go to Bud's first At that time,
No, I went to a school. I went to a whole technician a
school because when I went through, uh, you know, the Navy sees
the seal training as a bonus, right, So at every Bud's basic underwater
demis in seal training class, they lose seventy percent of the guys, right,
So that's seventy percent of high quality people that go right back to the
Navy. So I mean, that's a good deal for the Navy. So
they want them to be at least trained in something before they get to de
fleet. So I went to Hall Tech hull technician school and learned how to
a weld and be a fire fireman on the ship and stuff like that.
So when I went to BUDS, I was believed, you know, I
would have quit. I would have been a hull technician on a ship somewhere.
Yeah. And so what was Buds like for a young guy from you
know, the Midwest or around there, I guess the North. But you
know you liked the sea, But what did you think of the sea once
you got there? Well, obviously Lake Michigan is a lot different than the
Pacific Ocean, right, so although just as cold, it wasn't it's just
a different environment. So when I got the BUDS, I figured out really
quickly that what was going on, and I figure and I didn't know what
I was getting into in the long run, but I just knew that this
is something I wanted to do and I didn't want to be an embarrassment to
my folks or friends, and even though they had no clue what the Navy
seal was back in those days, but I just knew. I just didn't
want to quit, you know what, I did not want to do.
Yeah, so you get through BUDS and then what was next for you.
I went to BUDS and graduated class one oh nine. So if you ever
talked to a Navy seal that doesn't give you their class member right away,
they're not a Navy seal. They're just especially if somebody says it was classified
not a Navy seal, Because at the museum, would I run, we
have a database of every single seal that's made it through trading from World War
Two to the present day. So it's a matter of a click on a
mousepad. You know, you know, I don't know what the young people
use now, but anyway to find out whether the guy is a fake or
not. So anyway, I made it to Seal Team too. So back
you, when you go through BUDS, they give you a wish list,
right, so where do you want to go? So there was West coast
teams back then. At all the odd odd number teams are on the West
coast. Go figure, right, I mean that's that's the need something to
you, guys. So all the even number teams are on the East coast.
So that wellieve it or not, because you got to remember. So
when I graduated BUDS, I was only eighteen years old, so I chose
the East Coast because back in those days, Virginia drinking age was eighteen and
I did not want to be stuck in California where it was twenty one for
the next three years and not being able to go out and have a drink.
I mean that's basically the you know, the decision point in my life
at death, like where can I get a drink out's And that's the fact.
And I think a lot of guys did that same thing, and thank
god I did, because in California and I know I'm going to have here
this a lot from my friends. They're really good at doing like volleyball and
surfing, and then the East Coast guys are doing all the operating. So
anyway, just a little inside joke there. So I was assigned to Seal
Team Too and under Master Chief Rudy Bosch, who was in my command Master
chief at the time, and uh, you know, I served there for
like five years and Winter Warfare I did. I went through sniper school Seal
Team Too. I also went to Combat Swimmer school at Seal Team Too.
So I learned a lot of my basic training at Seal Team two, you
know, waiting for the data i'll be able to operate. What So,
what was it like for a young eighteen year old showing up fresh out of
Buds to a Seal Team. Well, luckily, when I showed up at
Seal Team two, they had just taken a lot of guys from Seal Team
Too and put him into Seal Team six right, And at the time I
didn't even know there was a Seal Team six. But what that did was
it allowed me to go from Buds right to Seal Team two, which is
unusual, you know, for a lot of you know, BUDS recruits to
go right to one of the premier teams. And so while I was a
Seal Team too, like I said, I learned all these skills and it
allowed me to, you know, basically, you volunteer again to go to
Seal Team six. And that's kind of how my progression went from Buds the
two. Then I volunteered for six. When you were at two, what
was the time frame, what was sort of the geopolitical situation and did it
did you guys have a lot of real world operational missions or did it seem
like kind of a constant training cycle for you? It was, it was
a constant training cycle for us. When we did have a chance to have
a real world mission in Granada, we trained for probably six eight months for
that mission and then basically it was taken by a Seal Team six for whatever
reason that I'll never understand, but they at that point I was like,
well, I need to go to that team because I you know, if
I want to be able to operate, I need to I need to ship.
And that's why I left Seal Team too and volunteered for six. And
so what was that process like for you going to Seal Team six Well,
it's just like anything else in the Navy. You put in a request,
you literally fill out a form. We call it a request shit, right,
So you have to fill out a requestion for just about anything. Even
back in those days, had to ask to get married, believe or not,
because they wanted to make sure you're responsible, paid all your bills and
you know weren't marrying some they should, they should bring that back. I
support that, I agree with you, but it would never happen, all
right, So you fill out over question and then your command master chief,
who is Rudy Bosch again at the time, I've been there for five years,
and the commander have to prove it and then you get basically start another
six month training program, not so much like BUDS, but it's like more
to teach you how to do things of the Seal Team sixth way. How's
that because they their mission was a little bit different than the other Seal team,
so they their tactics and techniques and procedures were a little different, so
you had to relearn it all and then you know there'd be a weed out
period, just like there wasn't Buds, but it was for different reasons.
Yeah, did you find the training challenge? Did you enjoy it? Like?
What was your experience like with that? Oh, the training was very
challenging as far as the physical training. You know, most deals are in
good shape and can handle that part of it. It was the the mental
challenge about the jumping and the shooting and the uh you know their their their
forte was hostage rescue, so it was like a lot of shooting in the
killhouse and you had to be very accurate, think on your feet, and
be safe at the same time. So it was very, very, very
challenging. And uh, I was happy and uh, I won't say lucky,
but I was very I was very happy to make it through. Yeah,
and then what was it like for you once you sort of once you
did that, you graduated Green Team and get on your your team and Team
six. What's that like do you? Is it is it being the new
the you know, the new guy all over again or yeah, you're basically
you're the new guy all the time, right, So you go through Buzz
and you think you're the ship. You get the Seal Team two and you're
a new guy, right for years. You finally get to a point where
you're like, yeah, you know, I know what I'm doing, and
then you've a volunteer for six and then I'm the new guy again, right,
so then you start over a net process again. So I felt that
the best way to avoid that again was not the move. So I stayed
there for the next thirty years. So so that was my plan. And
so how did you know, how did that go from being on Team two
where it was a constant training cycle and I'm sure that you're doing a lot
of training in Team six, but do you guys start to see some real
world deployments while you're there? Yeah? Absolutely, we sure did. And
and that was there was just enough to keep being interested because a lot of
guys got you know, depressed or you know, just a little board and
would move on. And I just you know, there was just enough to
keep me going. And I changed positions and jobs just enough to keep it
interesting and as the as the real world things would happen. Right, So
it was, it was it was a very exciting time. You know,
you're starting a family there. The good thing about six is that you when
I was there, is that you didn't travel, Uh, you didn't move
the family. I was at. We were always based in Virginia Beach,
so I did a lot of traveling from Bridgin from Virginia Beach, like up
to two hundred days a year, but I never had to move to the
family and the kids, right, So that was very important for me and
a lot of the guys. Yeah, and then can you tell us about
your first real world deployment if I don't know how much you can talk about,
like, but no, it's the very first one, believe it or
not, was the I don't know if you've ever heard this mission about the
Achille laurel Yeah, yeah, so that was that was my very first mission.
So we we flew into uh Cyprus, believe it or not, and
we're planning to take the the Achille Lara, which is a cruise liner down
because some terrorists had taken over. There was a couple of a number of
Americans on board, and it was a legitimate target. That's what we were
trained to do, right, I mean, it's maritime mission. It's a
ship on the sea. I mean it's perfect. But by the time we
UH got approval to do that, the ship was pulled into poor in Egypt.
So and basically the mission was over, right, So we all jump
on a plane and are heading back to the United States, and everybody's taking
their ambien to go to sleep because it's a long play. And uh,
you know, a couple of hours into it also and everybody's like, get
wake up, wake up. You know, the plans changed, right.
So it turns out the terrorists guy on a plane, we're heading over the
Mediterranean, and US fighter jets under order of President Reagan forced the plane down
in Singing Ellis sic League right, So guess who landed right next to him?
Us. We basically landed at the same time a whole plane full of
Navy seals and set up a perimeter around the plane so the terrorists couldn't get
off. And then the next thing, you know, we were surrounded by
I shouldn't stay surrounded by but a number of Italian y Yeah, and uh,
you know, basically it wouldn't have been It would have been ugly for
them if they had done anything, because I mean literally, we had I
don't even know how many seals we had on the ground with with all the
armor and anyway, it would have been bad deal for diplomatically. But the
bottom line is that the then terrorists came off the plane. We're dealt with
with Italian law, and we had to take it as a win and get
back on the plane and left. You know, Rick, I like to
take a moment here just to talk about that operation that you just described and
hear your reflections or insights into it, because what you've just described as an
incredibly complicated counter terrorism mission, even more complicated than a lot of the ones
we have today, where you're having to deploy to a stage and ground prepared
to execute a raid on a moving target in the sea, and a cruise
ship is obviously a huge number of rooms you guys would have to clear.
Then that rapidly changes into taking down an aircraft and you guys are having to
chase the aircraft into another country and then potentially, you know, breach that
aircraft and clear it. Looking back on it, I mean, I'd be
fascinated to hear, you know, some of your insights on on kind of
how that went down, and some of the lessons weren't well. I'll tell
you what, it would never take an ambient sure that the mission was canceled,
right, But I tell you what, even though I should I I
should say most of the guys had done it. I mean, you wake
up instantly, you know, when the adrenalinely gets blowing. That's the lesson
number one. So the the ship boarding and seizing part of our mission is
something that we train for all the time, right, so it's not unknown
to us. So it was it was normal for us. You know,
there's helicopters, there's boats. We're going to board this ship and we're gonna
you know, we're gonna take over, you know, certain parts of it.
We're going to rescue the hostages. This is the plan, right,
That's that's what we do. So that wasn't the hard part about it.
Obviously. The hard part was when we realized that the ship had made it
the port, right, because then everybody's on a super high, and then
all of a sudden you're on a super low because it's like not happening and
we're gonna we're just gonna go home, and we wasted, you know,
a week of our lives for nothing. Uh, And then all of a
sudden, you're all of a sudden back on a super high when they tell
you, you know, what's going on with the aircraft. And then when
you get to the you know in Italy and sit and singing Ela. There's
an American side and there's an Italian side. So the bad guys were smart
enough to pull their plane on the on the Italian side, even though we
didn't care at that point, and they surrounded the plane anyway, we weren't
gonna let them off. But most of a lot of the seals were also
on the American side, So it was just this complicated diplomatic standoff that luckily
our guys had enough maturity not to not to do anything right, because it's
a really literally a powder keg, and that's what happens. I mean,
all these missions, So one wrong choice and your next thing. You know,
you're in a gun plate and you didn't have to. Did you have
a member of the team that spoke Italian and could go out there with a
meat ball hands and resolve this whole situation? Every yeah, every you know,
I don't think intentionally because uh, you know, steals don't do a
lot of language training because that's not a job. You know, we don't
go here and talk to people, you know, talking into things. But
uh, you know, everybody has a couple of Italians in there, and
it's not racist. You know South Americans, you know speak Spanish, so
just by by nature Italian there's going to be a couple of hands go up.
Yeah yeah we Uh. Can you talk us through a little bit like
some of the technical considerations for actually clearing a ship, because you know,
in today's like military, we carry the five five six, the M fours,
but on a ship, I imagine you don't want something that that is
that high velocity. Is that correct or incorrect? No? I mean back
in those days we carried H and k MP five and I think and a
lot of times we would carry an empty five SD which is a silence version
and I still to this day. And you know, it's all about tactics,
right, So I believe that the first shipboarding that is the best weapon
to carry. You don't because you don't need I don't believe you need the
five five six. Maybe there's a couple of snipers you could do use them
that because there are some long shots on cruise liners. But interior to the
ship that is the best quietest weapon. So you could be clearing floor by
floor. The bad guys wouldn't even know that you're shooting. Right. But
over time, whatever it changed, so everybody's carrying, you know, whatever
their standard fire arm is at this point, H and K or sixteen or
whatever they're caring. But uh yeah, so yeah, it's all about a
tactics. It's like when do you carry a forty five or a nine mill?
Right, It's like whatever, whatever gun that you're good at, right,
whatever when you practice with, is the one you carry it whenever.
When is the most lethal is the one that you get accurately played? Right,
So anyway, that's that's just bricks cut and then and then what about
like the breaching consideration not going deep into ttpiece because we're not talking like in
a house with interior wooden doors. We're talking about heavy metal doors that if
they're dogged and kind of locked, like it could take a long You can't
just put a strip of you know, uh, an explosive strip on and
expect to get in. Right. Yeah, ships are very difficult to breach,
but the bottom line and cabin doors are usually made of wood. Okay,
so so that those are relatively easy and your grass You're right about explosives,
you start using them on the board ship over pressure on the other side
of the door will kill the people inside. Rather that you're trying to save,
so we have to be very careful. So the bottom line is if
if there's a door we couldn't get in, we would have to leave somebody
at the door and to guard it, you know. But those weren't many
doors like that. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. So the stand
off with Italian police and the terrorist is all resolved, you go home.
What what was the next op that you guys were spun up for? Oh
jeez, i'm's a memory lesson right now. So back in those days,
and then the next thing that would pop up is probably like Panama, you
know, Libya, yeah, or Olibya. You know, there's I mean,
the bottom line is that, let you know, I've been fortunate enough
to be and I consider myself fortunately been involved in just about everything that's going
on in this world militarily by the US since you know, eighty five.
So everything that you can think of, I had some role in it,
and whether it's been carrying a gun or operations or on the planning side or
whatever. So I'm very fortunate in that respect. Yeah, is there are
of those operations because I know a lot of your book is well, your
book is about leadership, and it's a lot of really like great, very
succinct, big nets about you know, some of the combat, some of
them training, some of them just sort of like administrative sort of like the
uh the email you you know, you responded to and we can talk about
the book and a bit, but sort of going kind of chronologically. Are
there any of those operations that you feel comfortable sharing with us, anything you
can tell us about, whether you were there as a as a you know
a or Panama. You guys did some good frogman operations down there. Yeah,
I mean, unfortunately I wasn't part of that, but Seal Team to
actually had the first ship attack yeah by US Navy frogmen. Uh that actually
sank ship or disabled it, which ended up thinking it. So that was
a huge, huge opp for history. So I guess obviously the one op
that everybody likes to talk about is the Somalia for Blackhawk down Battle of Mogivshu.
I was. I was part of that. My sniper team was part
of that back in ninety three, so it was it was a hell of
an experience. You know, we've been there for months, We've done a
number of operations there and I think what I tell people is that on that
day, the bad guys just did that they wanted to play. When I
say bad guys, they should say some hollies. I don't think they even
understood what they were doing or why they were doing it, but they just
decided that this is the day they're going to play the Americans. So it
was how did how did the team sex deployment sort of dovetail with what was
task Force range or ostensibly a ranger in delta deployment. I feel like your
guys' role probably isn't you know, talked about often enough, and I'd be
interested in, like how you guys played into the overall you know, operational
tempo of how that went down. So back in those days, there was
always a rivalry between US and the Army Special Forces. Right. So the
general at the time that was in charge of the mission was General Garrison,
and he decided that in order to integrate and try to alleviate some of this
rivalry, he would, you know, include seals in this operation, right,
And his idea was, you know, I guess four seals right from
a sniper team. So that was it, right. So we had trained
with these guys and we were on a cycle and you know, a lot
other of my cover parts on the seal side. We were on this like
four month cycle and every uh once in a while we would go down south
uh and train with the army guys. And it's just so happened while I
was on a stand by, the call was made and we deployed with with
everybody with tap pork Ranger as part of the group. We really didn't have
a mission because you know, we were a Navy and they didn't you know,
I don't know if they they didn't really have a plan for us,
right. We thought that you know, we did a lot of shooting from
helicopters. That was our job. We thought that's what they were that's what
we were gonna do. But when we showed up in country, we really
didn't have a job. And then the general called into his cabin, I
shouldn't take cabin. It's like a little shitty trailer, and he just basically
told us our next mission was to guard a c I a safehouse, and
uh so for the next two weeks that's what we did. We guarded that
house in the middle of downtown Shoe were were you were you there when the
case officer got shot. No, I was not there. Okay, I
was not there at that time, but obviously we were there afterwards. So
they were very careful on how we did business. And uh, as the
only white people in downtown, you know, you stood out like a sore
thumb. I mean, like I said, again, not being racist is
just the fact. So we uh, you know, we did a lot
of weird things like paying off a lot of different people to protect us and
for whatever else Room was paying people for. And we we didn't, you
know, we didn't. All I can tell you is that if we were
going to get overrun, our plan was to go to the ocean. And
that's what every good seal does. They take their fins. We run as
fast as we can to get into the water, and then we get the
hell out of there. And that was our that was our plan. What
we didn't have to do it? What happened? What was it? October
third was the day of the big battle, right, yeah, so October
third and fourth, and so basically this is probably both. I would say
it's the fifth or sixth raid that we had made into the city for different,
you know, reasons, and this one happened to be that we were
going after the Olympic Hotel and there's a bunch of bad guys. We got
word that we're having a meeting there. So the plan was for the army
guys to uh, you know fast broke on top of the building, and
our job was to hit the ground for and wait for everybody to come out
and either capture or kill him, depending on them. It was their choice.
And that's basically what happened when we got there, right. But what
was different than all the other times is that when we got there and we're
setting up on the target, people started shooting at us right, a lot
of people, and then, you know, so the mission went down as
planned and we ended up capturing you know, all the guys that you know
that weren't fighting and you know, basically tying them up, putting them in
in a vehicle to get them back to the base. But unfortunately that's when
the first black Hawk was shut down, and then the whole mission changed and
we were in and out of the city like normal, and like you know,
fifteen twenty minutes, we were there for hours on end, and that
gave it the enemy chance to build and build and build, and we saw
it, you know later on the video, truckloads of people just you know,
getting in and coming to fight. Just to back up a little bit,
what was the role of your sniper element. I mean you you weren't
with the assaulters, were you. We were part of the assault team.
But like I said, the main assaults would bast rope in and then they
would squeeze everybody down in the building and then they were escaping. We were
waiting for them, right, Okay, so gotcha at the target building.
So that that's what our job was. So you guys weren't carrying on that
So yeah, you guys weren't carrying your long guns on that one. Uh
well, at the time I had an M four team so with a scope
on it or choice for an urban. But you know, we weren't you
know, our job or snipers. We didn't realize we were going to be
playing assault roles at that time. But well, our guys are straining,
you know. I mean I always liked to joke with the assaulters and tell
them that the snipers are advanced operators because they go through assault training and sniper
training, right, and you can do either or but they don't appreciate that
too much. But uh So, after the first run in in the city
and we made it back to the base, I was able to grab my
gun from my counterpart that had been shot and was out of service, and
so I took his and four and went back out the next couple of times
out in the city with a smaller, more manageable urban gun. What were
those trips back and forth like, because you weren't you weren't really going out
to uh, you know, to grab pocks or to grab prisoners U were.
There were the trips back mostly to like refit, rearm and everything.
Well, the first trip back we went to UH, we were actually dropping
off a guy that had wounded got wounded. This is my own personal story.
So one of the rangers was fast rope and he fell off the rope
and uh we were taking him back to the bay and he was gonna die
right. So on the way back we ran into you know, you can
imagine the firefight that we ran into. We ended up losing a couple more
rangers on the way back. So once we got back to the base,
we refitted, reloaded, got some new humbies because ours were all shot up,
and then we went back out to join the main force to try to
help them get back to the base because they had never left the city.
So sure enough we did link up with them, and we went back to
the base one more time refitted, and then we went back out again that
evening to get the saying of the guys that are actually crashed in the helicopter
and the ones that done to uh to try to help them, so they
were still stuck, So ended up going in and out of there three or
four times. It's interesting because you know, we often hear about the rangers
and the tad guys who were part of it, but I think a lot
of people are unaware that that there were seals on the ground then too.
So back in those days that was perfect, right, So nobody knew what
a Navy seal was or nobody knew what Navy seals did, and that unfortunately
that all changed with been live so that was it was a great thing.
Yeah, And so how long would you say in between the trips? How
long would you say, you like the firefight lasted for you and for your
for your team. Oh jeez, it literally lasted for two days. I
mean, we would get a reprieve when we went back the base to reload,
but as soon as we left the perimeter of the base, it was
back on again. So it was it was literally that quick and then you
would fight until you got back on the base. So yeah, and when
you when you were leaving the base especially kind of I guess in the in
the last twenty four hours, was it to was it to engage, was
it to relieve troops? Was it did you have a specific intention when you
were going back out. Our specific mission was to rescue the guys that were
from the down helicopter. And then we had a team of guys that actually
went on foot from the original assault hotel that ran over to them, and
we're basically surrounded, right, So our job was to go in there and
get them guys out of there. That was our job. Something else.
Yeah, Yeah, you guys were out there flapping that day. It was
it was you know, yeah, it was I don't even know how to
explain it. It was just like I said, it was one of those
days and they decided to fight, and we gave him a fight, that's
for sure. Unfortunately it cost us eighteen lives on the US side, But
God knows how many Somalis. I know, I've heard numbers before, but
just it was unfair gunflate, but we had to do it. Yeah.
And then I think in your book, didn't you mention that you left and
you went back two weeks later thinking that it uh part thinking that like things
were going to happen again. Yeah, So we you know, at the
end of at the end of the battle, unfortunately we had a one of
our one sixtieth pilots, uh would happened to be the best pilots in the
world by the way, was actually taken captive by the Somalis. And we
you know, obviously we're not going to leave when we knew one or more
of our guys were, you know, being captive. So we believed that
we were going to get the chance to go out there and the rescue them,
right, that was our job. So we were preparing for that,
we trained for that, we went in the city for that, and then
ended up negotiating a release. So it actually it was a good day when
he came back to the base and we got everybody got to see him being
loaded on the one forty one being plowed in Germany. Yeah, and then
and then after that, what was it Bosnia for you? After that the
next deployment, Uh, yeah, that would be that would have been the
next one. And Bosnia actually lasted for a couple of years, basically that
basically, But one thing I will say about Bosnia is like one of the
few places where American soldiers could go into a country and actually fit in.
You know, yeah there you know, mostly Caucasian, Uh you know,
our size, and you know, it's not unusual because normally when a group
of steels walks in a place, there's like there's some unusual right, there's
like a bunch of big, healthy guys walking around and they're not It's hard
to hide who you are, right, So in Bosnia had always was a
little bit easier just because of the skin color and the size and stuff like
that. Somebody had spoke to me, I would have given it up in
a second because I wouldn't understood what they were talking about. But other than
that, it was it was a fun place to operate in. I thought
it was always uh nerve wracking because you never knew what was going to happen,
because you never knew who was good and who was bad, you know,
including the police, or or or the or the military for that matter,
because you never know who they supported, right, so if they're supporting
one of the guys that were going after, you know, they would have
easily been a player's up. But it happened a couple of times, and
fortunately I never experienced it. Yeah. Yeah. One of the if I
remember, one of the chapters in your book is was you know things go
right until they don't. It was about some of your experiences in Bods you
know, correct, Yeah, yeah, it was, uh, like I
said, our job was to find these we'd call them pip wicks, which
are first first person's indicted for war crimes. Right. So these were like
really bad, bad, bad people, you know, genocide type crimes and
uh, but they had their supporters, right. So it was like it's
like operating in downtown Miami, right, So you're down there and people see
you, but they're not they don't trust you, uh you know, unless
you're you know, you're known to them, and but you know, but
there's enough going on there that you don't stand out too much and things what
could go bad quickly, right, So it's just I don't know how I
also explain that one it was just it was a military job, but it
was kind of more on the secretive side. How that I mean, did
were you working more like an intelligence capacity trying to find and fix these guys
or more on the finish actually going rounding them up. It was a sniper.
My job was to find them and fix them and then we would call
in the back up and support the support the assault. Right. That's that's
what our jobs were as snipers, find fix and then finish it if necessary.
But basically to support all the all the assaultiers. Any any any interesting
stories about like whether on stakeout surveillance or like setting up sniper hides and you
know abandoned rubble. Well, the obviously the people were here chasing weren't living
in like poor conditions, right, so there the houses in the apartments that
the guys were at were not poor. So we'd have to find like apartments
close by or houses nearby to to surveil them from normally they weren't. There
weren't a whole lot of woods around. And even if there was, there's
there's people that are you know, hiking all over the place. There's no
way you could have hidden in those conditions. There's a few exceptions to that,
and and we and we utilize them when we could. But uh,
like I said, for the most part, it was an urban type environment,
and we tried to find places or vehicles that we could surveil the bad
guys from. You know, can you kind of paint the picture for people
watching and listening it's an urban environment, is there? Like is it mostly
permissive for you guys? I mean, are people kind of walking around conducting
their daily business, you know, going shopping and stuff like that, and
you're trying to find these guys or things a lot more tense in the general
sort of environment. Well, it's pretty it was at that time. It
was pretty permissive, you know what I mean. We could have walked around
without being noticed, but it's hard to You're not going to go into a
Serbian bar or you know, a Yugoslav bar and not be noticed and you're
hanging out there all day waiting for somebody, right, So there's no way
you could be in that position without being questioned. Yeah, So we would,
you know, we would do that things like that if we had to,
but it would be quick going and get a drink and leave and then
just to you know, identify somebody if they're in there, not just to
make sure things like that, but other than that we would be outside.
Yeah, how did things evolve for you guys during that time? Because you
know, you're going from a place like Moged issue. You're going from you
know, counter terrorism hostage rescue to much more of Aqestine form of operating and
obviously, you know, like special operations guys, you rise to the level
of the mission. But was there was there a did you have to sell
like the command back home on on? You know, there was this need
for new tactics, for new strategies, for new types of training, things
like that. No. I think that's the one thing I do miss about
the being active Seal is that the guys and the and the command is very
innovative, right, they always adapt to change wherever they believe the next battlefield
is going to be at. So we were training and preparing for battles like
Bosnia before they came, right, So we were, you know, we
were ahead of the curve. In most cases, we are ahead of the
curve and ready to fight wherever that fight is. Right. So like now
modern day skip, you know, twenty years is uh, you know,
China, right, So our guys are are getting ready for that that battle
or North Korea or any of these other places that are going to be the
next battlefield, you know, like like we had you know, in Afghanistan
and Iraq for the last twenty years. Yeah, yeah, and then after
Bosnia. So how are you for because you're still obviously in Bosnia operating,
but you've been in you've been in the teams for quite a while at this
point in time. Correct, Yep, sure I have. And that's like
I said, I don't want to be a new guy again, so I
just did. Yeah, And how is it for you as you're moving up
the leadership chain. So that's a good question because a lot of people ask
me that same the same thing because they used to think of the seal.
They think of this guy that's kicking doors down and you know, doing all
the So the bottom line is the longer it's like anything in life, right,
the longer you stay in, the more senior you get, the more
responsibility you get. Your jobs changed. So the younger guys are the guys
that kick the doors in. The older guys are the guys that are on
the radio call in airstrikes. Or whatever other support and then they go in,
right, So it's like it's it's just a changing of of of what
your what your role is within the team. Yeah yeah, but I mean
you you were going presumably from being an operator to being like a team leader
to a troop leader. I mean right right, So I mean that's it,
and that's it. And then you just as you become more senior,
you learn from others and uh, you know the best ways to do that,
right. So it's like, you know, when you eventually make it
up the team cheap and you're really not getting involved in the tactical planning and
that you're just managing the manpower and making sure they have what they need to
succeed. And maybe it's like an interesting time to also ask like what is
it like when you're the troop chief and you have to manage a lot of
like a type personalities that are chomping at the bit? I what is that
like as as from the perspective of a leader as well as an operator man
another good question. I would say that my style was I believe you at
least had to try to lead from the front. So anything that you were
asking you guys to do. You had to certainly try to do it right,
that's the example. You know. Obviously it might not be as fast
or whatever, but I was. I tried and I did it, so
you know, maybe not every time, but at least they could see that
I wouldn't ask them so like for example, like in Bosnia, like we're
just talking about, so you know, from the safehouset that we were working
out of, it was myself and another guy that basically man and all the
all the teams that would come in pick up, radios, vehicles, intel,
whatever. They had to do it, but they also used that as
their time to get a shower or take a normal bathroom break. Right.
I guess we had to clean the toilets up right, the master chief did.
So It's like it's just one of those things. It's just that was
my role at the time, taking care of these guys, making sure they
had to do what they had to do. And I clean a toilet or
too. Yeah, and what would never tell my wife that, right,
It's like it's like raising your hand when they asked who knows how to type?
What was your impression of in relationship with UH with the officers as you
were as you were growing up in the teams, in the team sex,
so you know, I know there was a lot of controversy there, and
I'll be the first one to make oaks about officers, but I was crystal
clear throughout my own career and who was in charge, right. The officers
lead the seals right without a question. Uh, you know, if they
ask for your opinion, you give it. They enlisted in are the tactical
leaders. It will tell you how to tell the officer how to take down
a specific house, but the officer makes the ultimate decision and nobody questions that.
So whatever they plan the movies or whatever you hear on the you know,
on the internet, is that's the way it is. Yeah. So
going back to your book, it's it's a great book and I highly recommend
everybody it because you know, you've distilled I'm not sure how many chapters,
but each chapter is very short, like three to five pages, and not
all of them are about combat. They're you know, yes, like you
talk about working with the Jaegers and what you learned you know from that,
and you know, just a lot of really great things. Yet what kind
of prompted you to write the book? I guess you know, I'll tell
you COVID did so like everybody else, we were shut down, and after
like a week I was out of like the home repairs to do. I
said, I know what my wife asked me to didn't you say you're going
to write a book? And I actually started writing it. So it took
me. You know, it took me about a year to get all of
it down, and then it took me about another year to decide to actually
get it printed. To be honest with you, and because like I said,
it's a very controversial fine line for navy seals to be writing books.
Trust me, I have gotten so much hassle from my own friends, even
though they know it's not a book about war stories. And I was so
great and this and that mostly about me and my book ups and anyway,
it was. It's it took me a long time to decide to actually get
it printed, you know. And that was one of the things that honestly
struck me about your book. Is it a lot of I want to say,
foreign military leadership books are very much or like you know, raw rah
toe the line, you know, like you know, the motivational type of
leadership, and you know through this adversity, like this is what I learned.
And there's a little bit of the adversity in here, but there's also
for like very human stories about like mistakes that you felt you made, you
know, things that you felt like you paid for, you know. And
one of the stories that kind of comes to mind was the story about the
email that was sent to you where a friend do you know what I'm talking
about? Where from can you tell us that? Yeah, another master Chief
buddy of mine that was in Somalia with me and when nine to eleven happened,
he was on the on the cycle and he deployed and with another with
another guy, and and he basically emailed me and asked me what I thought
about the guy right, because I've been working with him for a while,
so I not knowing it was a group email, I told him the truth.
I did, but luckily I didn't write anything too terribly. But he,
I said, you know, just watch your back. I don't really
trust him. So within like, you know, thirty seconds, I get
a phone call at my desk and we call it the red phone. It's
just a secure phone, and it's that guy and he's like, Rick,
what the fuck, what do you mean by this? What? And I
just started doing like a Michael Jackson moondance backwards, trying to talk myself out
of that, out of that email statement. And because you know, these
guys are forward, they are fighting, they don't need to be worried about
you jerks in the back like me that are making some stupid comments. And
but needless to say that when my buddy got back old of me, I
did say I did call him, you know what set me up like that?
You know I didn't the group e mail. I mean Jesus. But
anyway, the point of the story was really think about what you're going to
write or say. They can come back and bite you. It has that
happened to me a couple of times, and hopefully I've learned from it every
time. I don't want to gloss over anything if there's something else before we
get there. But I would like to talk about the g Y, Yeah,
absolutely, and how things in six start to change for the unit culturally,
operationally. And I mean it sounds like you were there for all of
it. Yeah. So what I tell people, and I'm giving them a
tour at the museum is what nine to eleven did you know. It was
a terrible thing, right, So we lost a lot of Americans. It
was a bad time for our country. But what it did for the military,
it actually helped us work better together. Right, So, before nine
to eleven, it was this constant rivalry between us and the Army. Amongst
other things. We didn't have the same you know, call signs or ways
we did business, you know, from call the player, you know,
for calling an airstrikes, so you name it. And what nine to eleven
did for us at that moment is that it forced us to be teammates and
to work together. So now after that, we've the next you know,
up till the present day, they do exchanges. There's no problem in putting,
you know, seals in with the army and Army in with the seals
because we have to be able to work together because there's just so much going
on now unfortunately that we can't afford to be this parochial. You know,
Navy is best, Army is best kind of thing. It's it's not it's
the US and the best and I know, you know it's a little bit
of raw rat there, but it's it really did make a difference, could
you you know, get a little deeper into you know, what it was
like at the unit, you know, after nine to eleven. Well,
you know, I was like most Americans. I was in the I was
in opposite at the time, and I watched it on the news, right,
but I guess, uh, you know, what we realized at that
moment was that, you know, we were going into war. And sure
enough, within a month, the entire command had was gone emptied out.
I mean there was only myself and one other master chief left in ops to
run everything that was happening, right, So it was just, uh,
it was just a crazy, crazy time and it had lasted for a couple
of years before we started getting in help to manage that, if you can
imagine, you know, because we had teams everywhere all over the world doing
God's work and uh, you know, literally one of my things is uh,
you know, and I talked about stress. I said, is any
nobody dying? And it's like back in those days, you couldn't you couldn't
say no to that, right. So now, like when you're in an
office setting or at the museum and people are all stressed out, it's just
like, is anybody dying at this moment, it's like, no, so
it's you know what, so it's not that important or it's not that critical
that we saw is at this minute, let's just take a breath and move
on. But back in those days it was true. So it's like we
could never let up. Yeah, was there you know obviously, you know
when when you talk about like cag and you know, everybody comes from the
army in some way, shape or form, so they're sort of used to
the idea of having the supporting arms, you know, the security and the
support while being the assault. Was that something that as as the Seals integrated
more and more into the sort of land warfare ops, was that something that
transition easily for them or was it? Was it a learning process? No,
it was a big learning process because we're in the navy, right,
so the naval special worker or how we did business was built around boats and
naval maritime worker. Right. So the Army obviously being being the biggest special
force out there by you know, ten Pole, it was in our best
interest to learn the Army way, right, So everything from terminology to a
lot of the different ways they do business, we would adapt so we could
you know, interact with them, you know, you know, in a
smart basis do our jobs because we had to work together and we had it
was better for us to learn their method than them to learn the Navy method,
right, because we operated like say, boat crews, right, So
you know, the average army guy, I wouldn't even understand what a boat
boat crew meant. Right. So I went back all the way to World
War Two and there was seven guys in a rubber boat paddling on the beaches
of Normandy, right, So then it moorked than the bigger boats anyway.
So it was just easier to go for us from them platoons and squadrons and
you know, all the Army to speak. Yeah, So during the guy,
currently, if I'm wrong, you retired in twenty thirteen, is that
right? Yep? Okay, So during the g y were you were you
already at a leadership position where you were sort of more in a managerial position
or were you able were you still sort of in those assault elements? Moving
forward? I was a sniper team leader. So back in those days there
was each one of the assault squadrons had a snigpor element inside it, and
I was in charge of all those. So my job was to make sure
those guys were trained and equipped and ready and capable to do whatever sniper mission
they needed for their assaults. Quadron commander, Right, Yeah, that was
my job at that moment. And how was that for you? Oh?
I love that, you know, I've been doing a sniper job for you
know, I don't know, twenty years at that point, and you know,
you know, the technology that was coming down the road and everything that
was changing, and the missions changing and the natural role of snipers were changing
drastically. It was it was a great time to be there, you know,
I don't know, we talked about sniping in a traditional sense. Now
that commission's gone, it doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's all gone.
Yeah, that'll never come back because nobody's going to put a sniper in the
field by themselves or even in a small team because the risk is just too
great, you know, capture or killing him and then that's a mission failure.
Right when there when there are such different ways now with you know,
drones and everything else that you have going on. So I'm not saying the
snaper roole a together is gone, but for the most part, I think
the traditional snaper role it's history. So you're talking about an additional in addition
to being snipers on, like the support by fire supporting the assault, you're
also saying that snipers should take over part of the sort of the new technological
movement when it comes to the reconnaissance and things like that. Yeah, I
think for the most part, nowadays, you know what you're talking about shooting,
I think most all all assaulters are snipers right with there. With the
guns that they have and the training they have, they're very very good shots.
When you're talking about seals, you know, all our operations are at
night, and you know, the most the max that you're going to see
or any seal mission is about two hundred yards. So I mean, what
is what makes you special as a sniper then? Right? So other than
you know, doing some reconnaissance beforehand before the assault squadron gets there, I
mean, I don't you know, like I said, I don't see the
role changing too much. Unless you're assaulting a target, snipers will take up
you know, high ground and but for the most part, anybody can do
it that was trained in that mission. Right. Yeah, Yeah, I
think that because we've when we've had people on before like apparently, I mean
I haven't seen them, but apparently a lot of the h like people don't
even know need to know the formulas anymore things like that, Like their their
scopes will figure all that out for them, you know, yeah, you
know, it's just it's kind of like the old the old guy and the
kid, you know, teaching him how to use a map, you know,
like a GPS thing. But what happens if it doesn't work, you
know, or the battery goes dead. So it's like one of those you
know, those old guy argument. You know, I totally agree with you
Rick that, like the the the prevalence especially of like drones and ISR and
all of this now takes away a lot of the need for a human on
the ground reconnaissance element that's kind of doing those And obviously a drone can also
take lethal action if need be, which eliminates a lot of those roles that
the sniper had. I think what's interesting though, is there are some thought
that in future wars, the electronic warfare environment may be so intense that those
drones and those other technologies may not work and you may actually have to send
a two man sniper team in with old school stacked glass on a scope and
making field sketches. It's yeah, I hear what you're saying. I just
you know, I guess we'll find out. You know, we talked about
to the Ukrainians and yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's you know,
what's going on over there right now is unbelievable when you talk about modern warfare.
So when the lessons learned from that work or which is still going on,
come out, we'll see I just don't see that happening, right.
So it's for example, if there's so many drones flying around, they don't
even know who who's flying what drone from you know, Russians, Ukrainians,
media, civilians, who knows. So if you're a sniper trying to sneak
in on someplace, is all it takes is like one drone just happens to
be pointing in your direction at the at the right time. I don't care
how great a sniper you are, you're going to get caught, right.
So yeah, yeah, AI enabled drones with facial recognition technology and all that
kind of stuff that's going to make it very difficult for those guys to hide.
Yeah, And it's I mean, it's the position right. And you
know when you talk about like the old school sniper mission, like it's terrifying
when you watch some of those videos of a guy out there thinking he's being
all stealthy. Meanwhile a drone's just watching him. And then you watch the
release of the drones like bomb and it's like the guy just rolls over and
it's like, well, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, it's very
interesting. It's very interesting. I don't know what's going to happen. We'll
see. So what what you started up? The museum? Can you tell
us about the museum? The Navy Seal Museum. We have two of them,
one of them in Fort Pierce, Florida, which is the birthplace of
the Navy Seal. That's where the guy's bought and trained for the land on
the beaches of Normandy for World War two. And the second one is in
San Diego, California, which will be opening in December. So we have
two of them. And you know, our job is to preserve the history
and heriage in the prog man on our fallen and take care of our families.
And I think what our mission is morphing into nowadays, more than ever,
it's just to teach young people that aren't exposed to it about you know,
honor, courage, commitment, and sacrifice, all those things that they're
not getting out in the world, you know, especially a lot of the
schools, just exposing them to something different, right, maybe something bigger than
themselves that they can maybe try in their lives. And they don't have to
join the military, but they can maybe join the peace Corps or just do
something that's not all about you and your TikTok and all that other craft.
Yeah, yeah, that's that's what our museum. That's it in a nutshell.
You some of those stories in the book if you don't mind, because
you know they're not necessarily combat oriented. But can you talk about your like
your time with the chapter I think chapter six or something, but like with
the Jaegers, and like what kind of how that influence you? Because what
I thought was cool in the book is a lot of these like moments that
catch your attention, that sort of mold you and influence you. Right.
So back in those days, I was in Salt two and a winter worker
platoon, and our job was Arctic worker, right, so we would literally
go with the Norwegians and ski patrol the border of Russia. Right, So
I think about that nowadays and I'm just like, boy, you know,
I guess a lot of things have changed since then, But that was the
way to do it back in those days, and I learned. I was
able to learn from the best, right. The Norwegians were the phenomenal skiers.
They knew how to live in the cold, and we worked together to
you know, form a relationship and a partnership that you know, if something
did happen, we were ready to play. So it was just one of
those things that was a great experience in my life. Will never happen again
because, like you said, technology has taken over that job. And you
know, I think about that now. What all it takes is one set
of ski tracks for a helicopter. Just be and and you know, don't
say don't say that, Rick. Our guys are over there in Sweden and
Norway training all the time. Yeah. Well, if they think they're going
to ski somewhere, maybe snowmobiles? Yeah, what are what are like some
I'm sorry, go ahead, oh but like what are what are some of
the other like if there were one or two? Like really, I don't
know a formative things that that you recall because you had an incredible career and
you and and and and in a peacetime world, like you said, you
saw every you know, prior to the g Y, you saw every military
action there was or a part of it somehow. So I'd really be curious
to know, like if you know, you have these museums to speak to
young people, like if you could speak to people like, what were some
of the really formative things that you saw that happened to you? Wow?
I guess the point is that if you have a young person that has any
desire to serve, you know, directing them to the museum or other veterans
to try to help them through it, I think is phenomenal because there's just
not that many places out there like that, or veterans for that matter.
I mean, I think there's two percent of this country or veterans, which
is not a big number. So if you have a kid wherever in Brooklyn,
you know there are odds a meeting somebody are slim and none because it's
not in their world. So a place like the museum, or in my
case, when I went to the recruiter's office and then was able to go
down to Great Lakes and take my screening test from a Navy seal that was
actually getting it to him, even though I wasn't in the Navy yet.
That was you know, priceless for me, right, So I actually got
to talk to him, figure it out, put myself to the test to
make sure I get passed, and then and I did. So it was
even still at that point not really knowing what I was getting into. But
you know, I think, you know, anytime you can nurture something like
that in the young person or even an older folk, it's invaluable to us
now, and I think it's more important than ever in our country. So
I hope the answers your question, Yeah, absolutely, Are there aside from
like some of the things you've talked about in the book, though, are
there are there moments that you remember back too, and that you recall that
that made such a huge imprint on you in that moment that it's psych it
changed. I think, you know, like I've written in the book,
and why I think I made a number of those chapters is because when I
made mistakes, that's when I learned the most, you know, when I
was held held accountable for my actions and I had a chance to actually and
luckily they didn't you know, cost anybody their lives. I was you know,
it meant something to me because I was a lesson learned and I took
it on board. You know, never try to do that again, right,
And I think you know, throughout the book, I think you'll see
a number of those times when I did make mistakes and I did learn and
I hope I became a better leader from them. Yeah, yeah, I
think that's Uh. I think that's really interesting though, is because people we've
talked to you in the past two like they've had one or two good leaders
along their way that really informed how they wanted to be a leader and kind
of changed what they saw as a leader. Yeah. Absolutely, so.
Yeah, and I've worked with a bunch of great ones and I've worked with
a bunch of bad ones. And uh so, you know, obviously,
when of yourself how the good ones and both the bad ones lead. But
it happens a lot of times in the navyes a lot of the bad ones
hang around, right because they they just you know, if you'll ask long
enough, you get promoted. Yeah. Unfortunately, so, but the good
ones that ultimately end up winning overall? Can can we talk about that fermento
the bad ones? Because the mill like a bad management or bad leadership,
any job can make that job miserable. The problem in the military is that
that person has a significant amount more control over you than a bad manager does
at the office. Here, how what would you recommended people or what in
your experience? How do you make it through those leadership challenges those bad leaders?
Well, there's a couple of ways. In the Navy, at least
every two years, the bad leaders would leave, right, so they would
be in command for two years and then they move on. So if you
could last the first place in time, right, if you could lasted two
years, you got it made. The second way is that you know,
for yourself, you got to make a decision right. If they are that
or and you are just that unhappy, it's time for you to go right
because you know, no, no bad leader is worth your soul, you
know what I mean. So I may actually made that decision when I left
Steal Team six, I was just like, Okay, I've had I've been
there a long time, I'd hadn't enough, It's time to move on.
But this one guy helped me make a move right, So it was all
It's all I needed. How important do you think leadership is to culture?
You know, when we hear about some of the challenges that certain steal units
have had, or certain special forces units have had, how much do you
think is the guys and how much do you think that is attributed to just
poor leadership. I think it's it's poor. It's all a poor leadership.
And I'm not just talking officers. I'm talking senior in listing guys. So
when you have a poor officer and a poor little senior listed, is a
recipe for disaster. And I think if you look back at the problems of
the past in the in the particular seal teams, you'll see that that was
the combination or a senior listed and a poor officer, you know, or
it's in the Navy or runner list. Right, you're just going in circle
girl all over the place, and I think, uh, you know,
I listed counterparts. I won't want to hear this, but I think in
most cases what ends up happening is the officers and are the ones that end
up getting the discipline or whatever is going to happen or the blame but a
lot of times it falls squarely on the senior list of guy too, and
they need to step up. Yeah. No, it's interesting because I mean
we've we've talked about not just with the Seals, but with Special Forces and
some of the challenges they're going through, you know, the Green Beret and
whatnot. That. Yeah, it's you know, it's hard to tell sometimes.
Is it some cultural rot that these that happens in these units? Is
it just is it just a top down problem? Is it a middle up
and down problem? Like where does it start? No? I think,
uh, you know, now you're really getting into deep into this, but
uh, I think it's accountability. You've got to hold people accountable for their
actions. And what happens, at least from what I've seen, is that
when people aren't held accountable, no matter what where they are in there,
you know, in the position whether they're a squadron leader or a team chief,
they have to be held accountable. And if you don't and you let
them get away with it, the younger guys see that, and it just
that's when the culture starts, and you know, there's there's no way to
fix it, right, And then if you happen to you know, do
the same, you know, hold somebody else accountable for something that somebody else
just got away with. Then it makes it even worse. Then they clearly
know that there's not It's like what's going on now in the country, right,
So it's like, you know, if people think other people are being
held accountable and others aren't, it's it's just bad, right Yeah, yeah,
check or anything else. I mean, no, that's that's I mean.
Do we have any questions? Oh yeah, let me check the question
We got a bunch of do we Let me try to pull those up for
you. I'll get to the questions here on the YouTube one in the youtubees
one in the tubes. Oh you actually have live questions. Yeah yeah we
do. Oh yeah, you guys are like high speed. People want to
people want to know. Let's see here, what's the bottle of sitting on
the desk. There is that lock of ooling. We got lock of uling,
we have seventeen ninety two, and then we've got bullet excellent. Yeah.
Rick, if you're ever swinging through New York, feel free to come
by, have a have a couple of drinks with us. I'd love to
so here. Thank you, Stu Rick, can you share your thoughts on
the folks out there who think BUDS is unnecessarily too hard and what is going
on with former BUDS CEO Brad g Okay, So a good question. Do
I believe it's too hard to answer? That is no. And the BUDS
has been the same for eighty years, right. It started in Fort Pierce,
Florida, right here at the Navy Seal Museum, and it hasn't really
changed in eighty years. And what's unique about it is it trains guys to
quit in training and not in combat. That's the whole goal, right,
And the instructors are masters of getting guys to quit. So it's all it's
all in your head. So I think it's an important part of steel training.
I don't think it should change. I think it's what keeps us at
the top of the food chain is our our standards, and without holding those
standards, we would be like everybody else. When you start changing the standards,
then all of a sudden, anybody can make it in. And you
know, there's a reason that the requirement is like fifteen pull ups for a
seal because you have to be able to climate caving ladder to board a ship.
Right, So there's a lot of different things. And if you change
that, then what are you saying that you don't have to climb a ship
anymore? So anyway, as far as Brad, I can't really make a
judgment on that. You know, he was in a shitty situation during shitty
time. There have been death set budds before, unfortunately, but I can
assure you that there's you know, when it does happen, it's unfortunate,
but there's so many safety uh safeties in place, and you know, it's
it's very rare. And in this case, you know, when when something
like that happens, they have to blame somebody, right, Yeah, I
have some questions here. This one's from Alex. He asks what were some
of the biggest cultural shifts in Seal Team six from when you started to when
you left? I think, uh, one of the biggest shifts was,
like, you know, when I first came in there, you know your
value for your your physical ability, your ability to shoot, move, communicate,
that kind of stuff. And I think what's happened now is that you
still have to do all that stuff. Plus you have to be tech savvy,
right, right, so that's that's the big shift there. So every
you have to do everything I used to do, plus you have to know
all this other stuff like you know all the new radios and the GPS's and
everything else that is a required laser range trying. That's required to do your
job now. So you have to have some sort of savvay to be able
to do that. So I'd like to think I still could do that,
but we'll never know. I don't know if you can, if you have
any experience with this one. But sim asks, how was Richard Marsenko in
reality compared to his rogue warrior PERSONA? Okay, I actually knew yeah Marcinko
very well, and he had a number of times to speak to him and
with him. So what I'll tell you about mrcinko is this, there was
no single man in the Navy that could have done what he did, and
that was to start to steal Team six. And he did it all on
his own right. It was his idea. You happen to be the right
guy in the right place at the right time. Now you're either a lover
or a hater him, So you know, I don't particularly care for what
he did because when I was the whole time I was at Seal Team six,
we were paying for the price for what he had done in the Navy,
and there's a lot of bad blood between our command and the rest of
the military how he let it. But other than that, like that,
that's what I'll say. He was larger than life. He was, you
know, obviously a war hero in Vietnam, and like I said, he
it is something that nobody else could do to ever. Again, I got
to have a lunch with him once and absolutely agree, very colorful character,
larger than life, no doubt about it. Yeah, and his little ponytail.
There. Sean has two questions here, did you learn any cool ocean
rescue techniques that you can talk about? The cool ocean rescue technique? So
you go through but as your tought life saving So every seal goes through life
saving training. You have to be able to save your buddy in case they're
in trouble, and the ultimate test of that training is that you have to
go save I can't remember how many instructors right back to back, and I
can tell you that I almost drowned trying to save these instructors because what they
were trying to do is make you drowned. So if you didn't learn some
basic techniques, just basic life saving techniques, I don't have any cool ones.
You were going to drown and they were going to drown you, and
some of these guys, we're going to drown you no matter what. So
luckily I was not on the bad list, so none of them wanted to
kill me. Because I mean, in the water, everybody's even you know
what I mean. So you have to be you have to fight hard to
save an instructor. This, this is, this is I have a good
answer for that one. This is this one's pretty specific, you know.
The second question he's asking about the differences in how you know American special ops
in the United Kingdom special ops are organized and specialized. I don't know if
you ever worked with the Brits, do you notice any difference between like the
task organization and how they did business. Yeah, we worked with these British
British Special Boat Service, that was our counterpart, right, So the army
guys worked with the SAS mostly and we worked with the SPS. Yeah,
there's their system is way different than ours. They do most of their recruiting
from the Royal Marines. They go into the SPS. They have a selection
course similar to the Buds, just like the SAS does. But you know
they're all different. Yeah. The their system and how they're set up is
just totally different than ours. I don't not a I'm not an expert on
them. But the SPS guys that I have worked with and continue to know
and be friends with there, you know, they're on par with us and
every step yep, uh, yeah, that's it. We didn't have more
questions come in here, Rick, has is there anything we've missed or failed
to cover that you'd like? No, just say, you know, any
of your listeners out there, if they're ever down here in Fort Pierce,
Florida, please come visit the National Navy Seal Museum. I think you'll you'll
like it. I know you will. You're gonna learn a lot, you're
gonna have fun. And we have an obstacle course. They're just like the
one that Buds in Cornado on a little froggy and you would run out.
I think the record is like two minutes and thirty seconds, which is phenomenally
fast. You know, come and do it, you'll have you'll have a
great time. So you know, you find yourself in Orlando and hit Disney
World, come on down to mu Seum. That's fantastic. And people can
I assume crashed on your couch with and UH when they come down, No,
they can see Brandon the compound of the museum. They're not sleeping at
my house. You can go to our website and that's you know, Navy
Seal Museum dot org. Uh learn all about us. Links are down in
the description for those of you who are watching on YouTube. And once again,
everybody, please check out his book. It's it's really great. It's
phenomenal, and it's you know, like I said, it's from a lot
of people. You get all the war stories and and really what you get
from Rick's book is just really all the leadership stories, all the you know,
all the human stories, uh, which which is really a fantastic sort
of view into the you know, into Rick's life into the military. Thank
you very much, guys, and UH for everyone out there, we will
be back this Friday with UH. We're gonna have retired be one bomber pilot
here in studio, so we're looking forward to that. We'll see all you
then, Rick, thank you so much. Thanks you, I appreciate it.
We'll see you and