WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:13.919 Hello, and welcome a Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom on the past 2 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:18.079 between primary secondary world. I'm your host, Andrew Snyder, and as always, 3 00:00:18.239 --> 00:00:32.799 I am truly grateful for your company. All right, so let's start 4 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.640 out by thinking all of my patrons, and especially my super patrons and greater 5 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:41.439 which includes Mark Jeremiah, Aaron, Aaron and Aaron, Andrew Clinton, Emmy 6 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:45.560 Harrison, I and Jamie, Jocelyn, Matthew, Paul and William and I 7 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:48.799 could not keep this up without all of my patrons. I have so many 8 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:52.759 plans for what is now the broader Mythic Mind community, as well as personal 9 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:58.359 creation goals, including a book that takes a Christian existentialist look at Talkien's idea 10 00:00:58.399 --> 00:01:02.079 of fairy. It's well as a novel idea, but more on that another 11 00:01:02.119 --> 00:01:07.480 time. But right now I really can't afford to do nearly as much as 12 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.920 I want to do, and so these plans can only be actualized with your 13 00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.840 patronage, and so to support my work and to become a participant in the 14 00:01:15.920 --> 00:01:19.319 Mythic Might Communities Guild and go to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind. I 15 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:23.000 go into that right now and then come back. All right, so today 16 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:27.280 we're gonna be revisiting Tom Bombadil, who honestly cannot receive enough visits, and 17 00:01:27.400 --> 00:01:30.719 this time I'll be joined by Jeremy Key, who is the host of the 18 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:36.439 Through the Keyhole podcast. I previously went onto his show to discuss Tolkien, 19 00:01:36.640 --> 00:01:40.640 Lewis and topics related to the idea of the true myth and so be sure 20 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:44.560 to check that out and to subscribe to Jeremy's podcast. But for now, 21 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:48.920 let's go ahead and get right to it with my conversation with Jeremy Key on 22 00:01:49.040 --> 00:02:02.920 Tom Bombadil. All right, it's likely go ahead and welcome Jeremy Key onto 23 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:07.799 Mythic Mind. So Jeremy, welcome. I'm happy to be here. It's 24 00:02:07.799 --> 00:02:13.400 been a long time coming. We finally made our schedules work, and I'm 25 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.159 I'm happy to be here. I'm honored to be here, and I'm excited 26 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:19.240 to be here. Yeah, it took us at least a few months to 27 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:21.400 make this one happen, but hey, that's been than our track record, 28 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:24.199 because yeah, your show that was like a years in the making of Think 29 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:29.080 about a year to get you on my show and just just a couple of 30 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:30.520 months to get me on years. So yeah, we're cutting it down a 31 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:37.639 little by little Jeremy, Well, go ahead and let the mythic mind listeners 32 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:39.400 know a little bit about kind of what you do, who you are, 33 00:02:39.599 --> 00:02:44.479 where you want to go with that. Yeah, So my name is Jeremy 34 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.120 Jeremy Key. I'm a counselor or a therapist, I think, is what 35 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:54.039 we call ourselves here in Dallas. I've been doing that for two or three 36 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:58.680 years. I've kind of lost track at this point. When I'm not counseling, 37 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.879 I have my own podcast. Kind of we're in a bit of a 38 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:07.159 hiatus, but when we're operating, it's called Through the Keyhole. We talk 39 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:12.639 about mental health stuff. We talk about literature, We talk about history, 40 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.719 philosophy, current events, and how those all intersect, because it seems like 41 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:24.400 it seems like in our modern world there's a lot more intersection with old ideas 42 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:29.680 and old beliefs than people give credit for, and so I like to explore 43 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:34.919 that on my podcast. I'm a writer. Occasionally I have a sub stack. 44 00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:42.280 I do a lot of reading, but yeah, I try to live. 45 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:47.080 I have something that I call an October mindset, and what an October 46 00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:54.560 mindset is is. It's it's a mindset that stipulates it's always October, and 47 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.840 so I try to live my life in that October way where it's just like 48 00:03:58.879 --> 00:04:02.719 you're surrounded by good books and you're engaging with ideas. That's why I'm a 49 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:06.439 therapist. That's why I'm a writer. It's because the life of the mind 50 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:14.000 is a life pretty well lived. In my opinion. Yeah, that's who 51 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:15.079 I am. That's what I do. I think, I write, and 52 00:04:15.160 --> 00:04:24.279 I speak. It's quite the heroic venture to carve out your autumnal sanctuary in 53 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:30.040 Middle Texas. It is it is considering that that autumn itself only lasts for 54 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:34.720 three or four broken up weeks between October and November. You gotta work real 55 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:40.639 hard to maintain an October mindset. Once you get in that rhythm, it's 56 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:44.199 like anything else. The hard part is getting started. Once you do it, 57 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.959 it's it's a hard habit to break. Yeah, as kirk Gar tells 58 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.399 us, the task must be difficult, for it only the difficult inspires the 59 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:56.879 noble hearted. Ah, I need to write that down. I need to 60 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.920 write that down for my client's sake, because I tell them that sort of 61 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.879 thing often but it never comes out near that poetic. It's always like you 62 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:08.120 gotta do the hard stuff because good stuff is on the other like, it's 63 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:12.240 just very crude when I say it, but I like the way here regards 64 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.000 a better Well, okay, so let's go ahead and put it, get 65 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:18.759 into it. So you know, I've been doing a series on Tolkien's Tales 66 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:25.920 from the Perilous realm um. And you know I previously had cr Wiley on 67 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:30.519 to talk about Tom Bombadial, but of course he's not somebody that can be 68 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.839 exhausted, and I think Tolkien would absolutely agree with that that sentiment. Yeah, 69 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.040 yea, even and not even commis. Tolkien had a clear understanding its 70 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:43.480 exactly who Tom bombadal is. And so that's what we're here to discuss today. 71 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:46.160 But before we do that, I'd always like to start on the broader 72 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:50.839 level, um, And so tell us a little bit about what pulled you 73 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:58.120 into Tolkien originally and also what keeps you there all this time later. Yeah, 74 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:02.639 So I came to Tolkien. My Tolkien testimony, if you will, 75 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:10.720 I was given after the Fellowship of the Ring came out in theaters. I 76 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:15.079 was given all three volumes and a single all three books in a single volume, 77 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:19.600 and I read Fellowship of the Ring and I thought it was great. 78 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:27.120 And then I then because I wasn't I wasn't raised right when where Tolkien is 79 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:30.560 involved, so I had to figure everything out on my own. And so 80 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.519 I read Fellowship of the Ring. And only then did I learn about the 81 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:36.000 existence of the Hobbit, and you know how it existed, you know, 82 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:42.279 chronologically, it happened before the Fellowship of the Ring. And so I thought, 83 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:43.759 well, I have to take a break, and I have to go 84 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.800 read the Hobbit, because I saw my brain works. And I read the 85 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.360 first couple of chapters of the Hobbit and absolutely hated it. So I tried 86 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.959 to read the Hobbit and I failed, and I tried to read it again 87 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.800 and I failed again, and I tried a third time kind of and I 88 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:00.639 just kind of gave up at that point, thinking well, maybe I'm just 89 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:05.000 not for the Hobbit. And so I've finished two Towers, I finished Return 90 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:09.800 to King, you know, saw the movies as they came out, and 91 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.040 then I decided, Okay, one more time, I'm gonna go do the 92 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.639 Hobbit. And somehow, you know, grace of God, whatever, you 93 00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:21.120 want to call it the Hobbit finally stuck. And so coming back to your 94 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:27.480 question, what brought me into Tolkien? What keeps me in Tolkien? I 95 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:33.120 read the Legendarium every year, so marillion, Hobbit, all three Lord of 96 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:36.519 the Rings books. I've done that every every autumn. There's that word again 97 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:42.759 for the past seven or eight years, maybe nine years. And the reason 98 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:49.120 I do that is because, and this goes to your question. I mean, 99 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:54.240 it's it's a cop out to say that there's just something magic about Tolkien, 100 00:07:54.319 --> 00:07:58.839 but there really is just something magic about Tolkien. It's you re Tolkien, 101 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:05.120 and it's a world that I at least recognize, but at the same 102 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.639 time, it's a world that I I don't. And what I mean by 103 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:16.639 that is is, you know, Tolkien loved nature, right He his friends 104 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:22.439 couldn't go on walks with him because he would stop and just look at every 105 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:24.480 tree along the path, and so they couldn't get, you know, twenty 106 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.319 yards in an hour, so they just stopped going on walks with him. 107 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:33.000 One of my favorite stories, he loved nature. And you know, regardless 108 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:39.759 of where you jump into the Legendarium, nature is itself a character in that 109 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:45.559 book. If you're reading the Silmarillion, there are literal chapters just about the 110 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:52.000 geography of Hilarioned right like you read you read the Hobbit, and you don't 111 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:58.759 have to strain your imagination to picture the Shire or to pickure Rivendell, or 112 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:05.919 to pickure the Lonely Mountain, because because Tolkien went to such great pains to 113 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:11.159 paint the picture in the reader's mind of exactly what those spaces looked like. 114 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:16.840 Same obviously for Lord of the Rings. And I grew up outdoors. I 115 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:22.200 grew up working on my grandparents farm. You know, being outdoors, being 116 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:26.360 in nature is something that I place a high premium on. And now I 117 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.919 live in Dallas, Texas, where the closest thing we have to nature anywhere 118 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.519 within about an hour's drive is surrounded on all sides by high rises and apartment 119 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:43.279 complexes and and just all sorts of things that remind you that you are not 120 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:48.559 in a place like Middle Earth. And I know, like we can't all 121 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:50.600 go to New Zealand, so it's hard to be in a place like Middle 122 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.840 Earth. But there is still you know, you don't have to go there 123 00:09:54.200 --> 00:10:03.039 to be in a place that reminds you that a good life can be a 124 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.799 very slow life. You know, what is it? Um? What is 125 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:11.639 it that Thorn says his last words, If more people I can never remember 126 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:18.399 the exact quote, but some the valuing food and cheer above horded gold exactly, 127 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:22.639 the world would be a merrier place. Right in the movies. I 128 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:24.480 think it's just in the movies. I don't think Bilbo says this in the 129 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:30.080 books, but in the movies he says, it's no, it's no bad 130 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.000 thing to enjoy a simple life, like this is this is something. And 131 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:39.480 you know, you read about Tolkien's life, he was he designed the shire 132 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:43.960 for his early life because he grew up in the country and he grew up, 133 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:50.639 you know, without all the industrialization. He moved into that eventually once 134 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.440 things started going off the rails with his mom and all that. But he 135 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.919 grew up and he understood he had this contrast in his own life between quiet, 136 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:07.000 simple life and you know, industrialized hellscape. And and so I think 137 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.360 like that, like I love the characters. Obviously, the story is rich 138 00:11:11.480 --> 00:11:16.639 enough to give you a stomach ache, like there's that stuff goes without saying. 139 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:22.519 But it's for me personally, and that's why I do my read through 140 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:24.840 in the autumn, because the autumn is my favorite time of year. Everything 141 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:31.559 seems quieter, slower, more peaceful, and and it just for me that 142 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:39.279 accentuates what I get out of reading the Legendarium, which is this reminder of 143 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:50.120 um, It's just it's a reminder of how beautiful life can be, even 144 00:11:50.200 --> 00:11:56.279 without all of the stuff. I think. I think that's that is what 145 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:01.480 I think brings me back to Tolkien keeps me coming back more than anyone I've 146 00:12:01.480 --> 00:12:05.399 ever read, more so than his contemporary Lewis. You know, I think 147 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:11.480 only Wendell Berry, as far as I can think, really challenge Tolkien in 148 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:16.960 terms of bringing out that quality that a good life, a good life may 149 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:24.159 objectively be a quiet and simple life. And and that's a reminder that I 150 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:30.200 need daily. So yeah, that's that's what drew me in. That's what 151 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:35.759 keeps me coming back, is just that reminder. Yeah, I mean, 152 00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:39.080 it's I think one thing really unique about Tolkien is that he didn't just write 153 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:46.320 enchanting stories, but he was himself enchanted by the world of Middle Earth. 154 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:54.080 Right. I not long ago read the Carpenter biography and Carpenter recounts at the 155 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:58.360 beginning of the book his interaction with Tolkien, where talking will just kind of 156 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:03.080 wander off and start staring off in the Middle Earth. It's essentially it's it's 157 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.080 the world that he lived in and kind of invites us to visit as well. 158 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:11.960 Um. You know, I often think regarding Tolkien, there's a reason 159 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:18.000 why, you know, in the Pagan past, you know, your your 160 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.480 Homer, and you know you're you're great poets were almost considered well, we're 161 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:26.960 considered profits, right, because the idea that they receive something. And I 162 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:33.080 think that, especially in Tolkien's Christian context, that's even more true. Um, 163 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:35.799 that there's something true coming into his mind and coming out through his words. 164 00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:41.919 Uh, and that in turn enraptures us to something similar. Yeah. 165 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:46.759 Yeah, I like the I like the line that you drew there, um, 166 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:54.159 incorporating that that prophetic aspect, not the sense of what people normally think 167 00:13:54.200 --> 00:13:58.120 of when they hear the word prophetic, but just in the sense of and 168 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.919 he even thought, you know, I don't know if he thought thought this 169 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:05.360 or if he just acted as though this was what was happening, but that 170 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:11.279 was how he wrote so much of a Legendarium was he felt he believed that 171 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.759 the story was being given to him, like he was discovering it rather than 172 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.000 creating it. And that's, you know, that goes in line with this, 173 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:26.799 this prophetic air of a person who is being given something. They're being 174 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:33.399 given some sort of secret or you know, privileged knowledge to share with others. 175 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.759 I don't know if you meant to call Tolkien a prophet, but I'm 176 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:43.159 gonna go with it. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I'm not saying 177 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:48.519 that Lord of the Rings is biblical canon, obviously, but there certainly is 178 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:52.799 a prophetic element there, and I think, um, that goes very much 179 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:58.600 along with Tolkien's literary philosophy that you know, a good story is something fundamentally 180 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.080 true, and so if you connect that with the idea that you know he 181 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:05.120 was discovering it, then there absolutely is a prophetic element there. And of 182 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:09.519 course one of the more explicit examples of this would be his comments on Fairmere 183 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.399 Right, who he says basically sort of showed up and he wasn't expecting it. 184 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:18.000 But you think he likes them, Yeah, yeah, he couldn't wait 185 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.519 to learn more about him, right, which is out the way you're talking 186 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:26.200 about your own character, unless, of course he's not your own at least 187 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:33.279 not entirely. I mean I've often, I've often wondered about that. Um, 188 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:37.279 yeah, I'm not gonna go so far as to say that he that 189 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:43.320 he was receiving these stories or characters from some other place, but yeah, 190 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.399 just the way that he approached them, the way that he he thought about 191 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:54.759 them, but also the depth to the clarity with which he he you know, 192 00:15:56.039 --> 00:16:00.480 laid out all these characters. This wasn't just Pharomer, and he's the 193 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:04.279 brother of Boomer. This is Faremer, brother of boromir son of this guy. 194 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.600 You know, this is his profession, This is where he was, 195 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:14.039 like he everyone in that everyone who has a name, I think, and 196 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:21.759 in the Legendarium, seems to have such a fleshed out background, a fleshed 197 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:26.159 out story that even though they're not real people, they're not you know, 198 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:30.639 they didn't exist. But it seems like we know less about some people who 199 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:36.559 did exist than we know about these people who are just you know, figments 200 00:16:36.559 --> 00:16:41.679 of his imagination. And that is really that is a rarefied feat no matter 201 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:47.399 how you look at it, right, it is kind of interesting that for 202 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.639 people who really make Tolkien their you know, profession or you know, to 203 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.120 really delve into the history and the genealogies and whatnot. No one just feels 204 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:00.159 like you're doing history. Yeah. Yeah, I mean we have Tolkien Skollar, 205 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:06.000 we have people learning the language the language is, we have people, 206 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:14.000 you know, writing dissertations about this fictional world that he created. That's impressive. 207 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:19.079 That that's I mean, obviously that's impressive, but that is something that 208 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:26.759 might just be unparalleled. Hmm. Yeah. I really found it disappointing that 209 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:32.599 I didn't really discover the value of fiction until just recently, you know, 210 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:36.400 growing up in school, you know, I was always taught that, Okay, 211 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.599 the big divisions of literature, you've got nonfiction, which is true, 212 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.880 and then fiction, which is not true. It's it's made up. Um, 213 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:45.359 But that's just an entirely wrong way to think about it. That. 214 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.720 You know, Ultimately, fiction, at least good fiction is really a hyper 215 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:56.240 real where it takes the narrative of real life existence and kind of amplifies it, 216 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.519 makes it more explicit. Um. The yeah something told Hans really been 217 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.960 helping me with. Yeah, now the stories aren't true, but the lessons, 218 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.599 the ideas, the morals, the philosophies, they all are, right. 219 00:18:08.799 --> 00:18:12.240 It kind of brings up the question of what do we mean by truth? 220 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:18.880 Right? Are we defining that strictly in material um, you know, 221 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:27.480 literal historical terms or I mean metaphysically existentially and true can mean different things while 222 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:32.279 still dealing with reality. And the question is what is reality fundamentally? Well, 223 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:37.680 let's not remember, let's not forget what Indiana Jones said. He said, 224 00:18:37.279 --> 00:18:41.720 he's an archaeologist. He deals in facts. If you're looking for truth, 225 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:48.839 the perfect the philosophy classes down the hall, it seems like it seems 226 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:56.920 like we've we've conflated fact with truth in the modern mind. And and that 227 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.480 is that is something in dire need of a divorce. I would say, 228 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:07.599 absolutely, And that has all kinds of what I would call dangerous implications philosophically 229 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:14.240 as well as theologically. But I don't necessarily go that right now. Um. 230 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:18.880 Now, more to the our primary topic today, which is of course 231 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:25.279 Tom Bombadill. Um. So you know, when we were talking about when 232 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:26.599 you might come on in the series, you know you mentioned you wanted to 233 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:33.839 talk about Tom Bombadill and so what is your particular attraction to him? I 234 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:41.880 was thinking about this earlier today, and I think, my what attracts me 235 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:48.200 to Tom Bombadill. Is it kind of goes along with with what I what 236 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:53.839 I said a few minutes ago regarding what brings me into Tolkien, the the 237 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:59.839 reminder of the simplicity and you know, the good things that can come from 238 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.480 at there's a lot, there's so much of that in Tom Bombadil, Like 239 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:11.079 this was a guy who who was completely unaffected by the ring. This was 240 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:17.319 a guy who, you know, his entire day consisted of wandering through the 241 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:23.000 forest, singing and picking flowers for his wife. And of course there's a 242 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:26.880 million layers Tom Bombdill. I'm sure we'll get to about five of them. 243 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:36.680 But just that that simplicity, the simplicity on the surface, I think is 244 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:38.880 maybe a better way of saying, because again, a million layers to this 245 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:44.720 guy. But on the surface, he's just a dude who sings and picks 246 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:48.200 flowers like that, and he laughs a lot. He's jolly, you know, 247 00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:56.200 Tom Bombadill is a jolly fellow um Like he's he's unbothered by the fact 248 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:03.200 that that the ring has been found and and you know, Barradoor is active 249 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.640 again, and the fire and the Mountain of Fire has reignited and orcs or 250 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:12.480 roaming the hills. He's unbothered by any of that, because he echoes the 251 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.359 sentiment. I don't know who said it first, but I know it from 252 00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:19.480 Russell Kirk Brighten, the corner that you're in. You know, don't worry 253 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:23.559 about the goings on of the wider world, because you're probably not going to 254 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:30.440 have much, if any effect on it. Just beautify, make make good, 255 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.039 capital, g good the place where you are. And you know, 256 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:38.440 he even says I think he says it, or maybe Gandolf says it, 257 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:45.720 maybe they both say it. But his corner of the world is a pretty 258 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:51.640 well established but carved out place, right, Like, he doesn't go to 259 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.279 Rivendell because one, he would be useless there because he would just be laughing 260 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.720 the whole time, but because his power doesn't extend beyond borders, and so 261 00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:11.519 like, he's this mysterious, obviously immensely powerful individual. But but he's untouched 262 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.599 by the power that he contains. He may not even be aware of the 263 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.680 power he contains. It may not mean anything to him. But in spite 264 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.920 of all that he could do and all that he may or may not represents, 265 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:29.759 he is just interested in taking care of his animals, tending his lands, 266 00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:34.839 keeping his wife happy, you know, entertaining guests as they wander through 267 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:42.599 the Old Forest. And there's something there's something equally appealing and mysterious about that 268 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:52.240 to me. Yeah, it's it's the mystery and the mystery, the complexity 269 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:57.839 of his simplicity all rolled into one that he embodies so fully. Yeah, 270 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:04.960 and obviously a lot about this idyllic life and sanctuary that he's established in the 271 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:11.960 edge of the old Forest. But would you say we can totally leave him 272 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.039 off the hook for not using his power to go vanquish evil. I mean 273 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:18.200 even in his own territory, right, I mean, he could have driven 274 00:23:18.200 --> 00:23:25.119 out the barrel whit. It's a long time ago. I mean, I've 275 00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:32.599 wondered about that. But to my mind, however, powerful he was, 276 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:37.279 and I think that he was quite powerful. Again, I don't know what 277 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:42.039 Tom Bombadile was exactly, but I suspect it was something of note. But 278 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:53.200 power wielded irresponsibly is dangerous to say the least. And again, like he 279 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:59.680 took the ring from Frodo and performed like close hand magic with it, made 280 00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.960 its appear. This this is a guy who didn't who didn't either respect the 281 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.200 power that he had, which I don't think is a terrible thing um to 282 00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:15.119 have that sort of remove from from power. He either didn't respect it or 283 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:21.680 didn't understand it. But either way, like clearly he could he could put 284 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:26.839 the Barrow Whites in their place. We saw that he demonstrated that. But 285 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:34.759 I also just it doesn't seem like his mind operated in that sort of that 286 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:44.920 sort of power aggression through power as a means of positive change. I don't 287 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:52.519 think he thought with that sort of that sort of a political mathematics and so 288 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:53.880 so, yeah, it would be cool if someone could have given him like 289 00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.799 a PowerPoint presentation. But like you are this, you are capable of this. 290 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:03.599 Here's a problem, go solve it. But I just this is such 291 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:11.200 a childlike element to him that I don't think he can be I don't think 292 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:15.119 he can be really held responsible for not using his power for some sort of 293 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:23.759 martial objective, right. And I'm just thinking about this now. It's like 294 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:30.759 he didn't recognize evil as his abstract force to fight against. He fought against 295 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:37.119 evil to defend his friends, the Hobbits. It makes you think a fairmere 296 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:41.680 right, you don't love the sword for its sharpness, or you could buy 297 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:48.160 quote it better than I could. That goes back to Chesterton who said, 298 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.960 you know, the good soldier doesn't fight because he hates what's in front of 299 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.960 him, but because he loves what's behind him. Yeah, Tom Bombadell, 300 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:02.519 he only confronted evil when he did confront it to the degree that he did. 301 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:08.039 He only confronted it when it was at his border because he didn't he 302 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:14.039 didn't confront it because you know, there's a there's a district of the of 303 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:18.200 the county that has some really bad elements that need to be taken care of. 304 00:26:19.240 --> 00:26:22.559 Because he didn't hate what was in front of him, He just he 305 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.880 loved what was behind him. Hilt Like, if the Barrowhites came to Casa 306 00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:32.279 de Bombadill and we were trying to start something, I have no problem believing 307 00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:37.119 that Heaven and Earth would probably be moved. But he didn't see the need 308 00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.599 for it to come to that. He didn't he didn't see the need to 309 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.880 seek out that adventure. If it came to him, he would have handled 310 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:47.599 it, but he didn't seek it out. And I think that again, 311 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:52.920 I think that that is a a childlike approach. But in that childlike approach, 312 00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:03.440 I think that I think that there's a good lesson there to to you 313 00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.960 know, again, Chester ten, be ready to fight, be ready to 314 00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:12.680 defend, but don't necessarily seek it out because it's gonna come eventually. You 315 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:18.640 know, there's always there will eventually be a time to stand up straight and 316 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:22.640 to you know, puff out your chest. Don't rush it, I think, 317 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.319 is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, absolutely, you don't. 318 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:30.759 And I think that's such an important lesson today. Right, it's so easy 319 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:37.799 to play the crusader right, especially in the realm of the political right, 320 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:45.759 where you're fighting this abstract entity instead of um, thinking about who's actually in 321 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:49.319 your orbit and what do you need to serve them? Um. And I 322 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:56.559 think that's one thing we see here in in tom Um. Now, I 323 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.839 know there's really no way to answer this, but if this is even an 324 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:07.079 important question, what is tom in your estimation? I if there's one legendarium 325 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:17.359 question that I have puzzled over the most and made no traction whatsoever, it's 326 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:22.319 this question. I've heard a ton of good theories. Maybe he's maybe he's 327 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:27.319 an i knowre, maybe he's a Maya, you know, maybe he's a 328 00:28:27.319 --> 00:28:33.599 magician, like he could be any number of things. I have no idea 329 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:41.640 what Tom Bombadill is. What I what I leaned towards is him being some 330 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:55.799 sort of some sort of manifestation of like the spirit of Middle Earth. And 331 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:02.680 again I was thinking about this today. In the Silmarillion, everything was brought 332 00:29:02.799 --> 00:29:07.839 together, everything was created through song or it yeah, through song, it 333 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:12.599 was was revealed to evert to to all the einor like you know, you 334 00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:18.880 were singing existence into being and and all through Lord of the Rings. Song 335 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:27.039 plays very important parts at very very critical junctures. You know, there there's 336 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:33.759 a song. Uh, there's some very important songs of similian Um. Sam 337 00:29:33.799 --> 00:29:40.680 is able to locate Frodo by singing a song like it's there. There's whenever 338 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:45.200 a song appears in the in the legendarium, you know, pay attention because 339 00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.599 something is happening. And you know, going back to Bombadill, what does 340 00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:53.720 he do. He sings all the time, and if he's not singing, 341 00:29:53.759 --> 00:30:00.200 he speaks in a sing song sort of way, and so and again his 342 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:08.799 life is as natural as you can imagine a life being in Middle Earth. 343 00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:12.799 Like obviously they didn't have technology like we have it. They didn't have TV 344 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:17.640 and smartphones or anything. So in a sense, everybody's life was natural. 345 00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:23.640 But but Tom Bombardill and Goldberry Goldberry Bombardill, that just it sounds weird. 346 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:27.480 I don't know if they took last names back then or not. But Tom 347 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:34.039 Bombadill and Goldberry in a world that everyone is living in some sort of communion 348 00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:41.799 with the natural world, they lived in perfect harmony with it. And so, 349 00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.079 you know, you take that aspect, you take you take the importance 350 00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:51.319 of song and the legendarium, and the fact that Tom's character is introduced through 351 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:56.720 song. He is summoned at times of need through song, like that's he 352 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:02.119 is the embodiment of song, he might be able to say. And song 353 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:10.279 is the the vessel of or a vessel of of creation and hope and in 354 00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:18.759 some cases even salvation in the legendary um. And so so the most confident 355 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:23.599 answer I have is that he is some sort of some sort of embodiment or 356 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:33.039 manifestation of of, you know, the transcendental reality of goodness or or beauty. 357 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:38.920 Um. And maybe that's just me, you know, placing him on 358 00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:45.920 a on a poetic pedestal, But that's that's the that's the closest I can 359 00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:52.119 come to making sense of Tom Bonondadill. I mean, honestly, I think 360 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:57.440 that's pretty good. I mean, he he definitely seems I mean undeniably he's 361 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:01.920 tied to the Earth, right, I mean, and so whether on a 362 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.279 grand or lesser scale, he's obviously some kind of nature, spirit, personification, 363 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:14.920 something of that nature, not one thing that just thinking about today, 364 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:21.119 and so I didn't prep you on this ahead of time, but I was 365 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:27.279 kind of thinking about the different perspectives between the Elves and Tom Bombodale regarding immortality. 366 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.680 And so we noticed that over time, especially by the Third Age, 367 00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:36.759 you know, the Elves are almost weary of Middle Earth, right, and 368 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:38.920 so they're they're kind of winding down over time. And you know, we 369 00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:43.640 see throughout the Legendarium, even back to the Summarlion that for the Elves, 370 00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:51.839 immortality wasn't always a joyful gift, right, It's wearysome. Whereas Tom bombadal 371 00:32:51.920 --> 00:32:55.839 who it's apparently the first creature and Middle Earth maintains the joy from beginning to 372 00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:04.640 end. So what do you think it counts for that kind of different perspective 373 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:07.319 that Tom by no means seems to be winding down by the third age. 374 00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:12.559 Well, let me ask you this, do you think that Tom Bombadill was 375 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:20.839 even aware of the reality or maybe the finality of death, because he seems 376 00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:27.039 to carry himself around as if that doesn't even occur to him. And maybe 377 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.240 he's made peace with it, you know, maybe he's just like when my 378 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:32.920 time comes, it comes, and so he is. But it really like 379 00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:40.200 hearing you, hearing you ponder that, I have to wonder if you know, 380 00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:46.559 being the father of the fathers or however l Ron refers to him, 381 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:52.559 he's older than the nts for crying out loud, that's pretty sinken old. 382 00:33:54.599 --> 00:34:00.599 I wonder one if time has any meaning to him, and by extension, 383 00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:06.960 if death has any meaning to him. Um, Which is not to say 384 00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:10.960 that he's immortal. I just don't know that he's ever that he's ever considered 385 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.840 the reality of death. What do you think? Yeah, it's possible, 386 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:23.760 And I also kind of think it's tied to his understanding of mastery. And 387 00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:28.440 so we're connecting a number of themes together here. But you know, when 388 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:32.199 when fred To asked Goldberry, you know who is Tom um? And you 389 00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.760 know she says, well, he is, But then um, yeah, 390 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:40.000 which is a great response. Uh yeah, he's he's Tom. Uh. 391 00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:44.920 You know, she talks about how you know he's the master and you know 392 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.960 no one's ever caught him. Um, and at that idea of never being 393 00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:51.159 caught is something to do with his mastery. And Fred says, you know, 394 00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:53.880 so what all these trees and animals would not belong to Tom, And 395 00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:59.880 she says, no, of course not. And so his mastery is a 396 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.000 in his release of control, the fact that you know, he has this 397 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:10.840 power but willfully surrenders it, and that in turn is what gives him mastery 398 00:35:10.840 --> 00:35:15.760 over the world around him. To kind of tie back to Kirkgard a little 399 00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:21.280 bit here. You know, in his book Fear and Trembling, which is 400 00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:25.840 principally about the sacrifice of Isaac, you know, he he contrasts and of 401 00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:30.000 these two figures, you've got the Knight of infinite Resignation, which you know, 402 00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:34.559 this is the one who gives up all of his worldly ambitions, gives 403 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:37.880 up all this worldly control. Left to that state, he's basically the stoic, 404 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:44.320 right, And Kirkgard makes the point that that isn't the Christian hero. 405 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:47.360 The Christian hero is the one who goes one step further, who resigns his 406 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.800 ambitions to this world with the hope that somehow, by faith, will receive 407 00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:54.960 it back in the end, right. And this is of course the Abraham 408 00:35:54.960 --> 00:36:00.079 and Isaac story. And so in many ways I think that Tom Bombadell is 409 00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:04.079 the night of faith. He's the one who surrenders his ambitions for the world 410 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:07.199 and in turn gains the world back. Hm. And that comes with a 411 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:14.280 certain impenetrable joy. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I can 412 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:22.199 see, I can see that's that's really well put. And you know, 413 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:25.519 I'm I'm I'm thinking about and think about something that Goldberry said that you touched 414 00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.199 on that may or may not be tied to this as well. But the 415 00:36:30.559 --> 00:36:35.400 comment that she makes, uh, he's never been caught. That's never like, 416 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:39.000 that's never stood out to me until just now because on this, on 417 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.079 this topic of of you know, death and eternity and time and all this, 418 00:36:46.639 --> 00:36:51.800 I can't help but think of one of the ways that death is normally 419 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.119 portrayed, which is, you know, death comes for us all. Well, 420 00:36:54.119 --> 00:37:00.760 that's that's the language of a chase. You know, death is it's 421 00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:04.679 always it's always coming for us. It's going to catch all of us, 422 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:12.039 but Tom has never been caught, and so like through that lens, like 423 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:14.920 I say, I may I may be making something out of nothing, but 424 00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:22.920 it's an interesting it's an interesting contrast. Here's an ageless being who has never 425 00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:28.280 been caught, but death is inevitable, and so what happens when the inevitable 426 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:36.599 catches someone that can't be caught? I don't know, but that's a curious 427 00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:43.079 thing to think about. It is interesting that, you know, Gandalf makes 428 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:46.320 one last stop at Tom Bombadel's house before heading off to the Undying Lands. 429 00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:50.320 Yeah, And I don't know exactly what to make of that either, but 430 00:37:50.679 --> 00:37:53.800 I think it's something to do with the fact that something about who Tom is 431 00:37:53.920 --> 00:38:05.960 in this sort of sub world that he's created is repertory for eternity. Yeah. 432 00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:08.519 Um, I mean that again, that's everything about Tom Bombadill stands out 433 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:13.119 right, Like there's nothing about Tom Bombadill that you just kind of skate over, 434 00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:20.239 but that particular aspect that Gandalf, Yeah, like he he departed from 435 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:27.280 the Hobbits to go talk to Tom Bombadil instead. Um. Yeah, like 436 00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:31.119 that that's such a weird thing because it's unlikely that they were just like having 437 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:37.639 tea and chit chatting about the goings on. It seems like, again, 438 00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:42.639 like when when the song appears in the legendarium, you pay attention. When 439 00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:46.079 Gandolf appears in the legendarium or disappears, you pay attention to that as well. 440 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:52.719 And yeah, yeah, I want I've often wondered, like, what 441 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:59.400 were they talking about? But I never considered the possibility that there was something, 442 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:07.000 as you say, preparatory about about meeting up with Tom. After all 443 00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.679 this stuff has happened and before you know, this final voyage takes place. 444 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:19.159 That's a that's a curious, a curious, a curious plot point that I 445 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.679 had not really paid too much attention to. And I don't know that we 446 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:24.639 can't say much more than that, because again we're not given the conversation, 447 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:30.920 but it does seem like, well, obviously Gandalf does things intentionally. Sure, 448 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:36.760 he arrives precisely when he means to, exactly late, never early. 449 00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:42.800 Yeah, okay, we've kind of talked all around this, but to make 450 00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:47.880 it a little bit more explicit, why do you think Tolkien included this strange 451 00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:52.000 character who you know? You ask Peter Jackson, You take him out, 452 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.880 the plot doesn't change. Yeah, so what do you think he's doing in 453 00:39:55.880 --> 00:40:06.960 the story? If that's even a legitimate question. I I wish I had 454 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:12.719 a good answer. Obviously, any of us can only speculate. And so 455 00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:20.760 when I when I think about that question, I try to put myself in 456 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:24.800 tolkien shoes, and I inevitably fail, because I'm not fit to carry his 457 00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:32.199 shoes, much less aware of them. But again, he he puts in 458 00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:42.360 this incredibly enigmatic character at at a time, at a transition period. You 459 00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:46.000 know, it's it's a transition period, and the story it's a transition period 460 00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:52.920 visually and narratively, Like obviously they're on the move, but they're they're they're 461 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:54.960 no longer in the Shire, They're not yet in the wider world of Middle 462 00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:02.800 Earth. They're in this weird almost sort of like purgatorial place um And and 463 00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:08.800 why why put that there? Why couldn't they have just you know, figured 464 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:14.440 out how to how to get past old Man Willow and just you know carry 465 00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:22.800 on their merry way like they they they weren't benefited aside from being given the 466 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:29.119 the tom Bombadill's summoning song to get them out of the barrows. They weren't. 467 00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:35.119 They weren't imparted with any kind of knowledge or insights so far as I 468 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:43.480 can recall that benefited them on their quest. They weren't told like anything that 469 00:41:43.480 --> 00:41:51.000 that came into came into consideration later again unless I'm forgetting something. So yeah, 470 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:55.599 why that go back to your question, why is this incredibly enigmatic figure 471 00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:05.960 in this fairly pivotal point pivotal taken and have taken literally enigmatic figure in this 472 00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:13.280 pivotal point of the story for what reason? And you know, I was 473 00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:17.000 racking my brain. I was trying to think of things that that Tolkien said 474 00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:22.840 in interviews or in his letters about Tom Bombadill. But he was notoriously kind 475 00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:28.079 of like age. You know, he didn't really say a whole lot about 476 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:34.480 Tom Bombadil, And so I have to wonder if he even had a full 477 00:42:34.559 --> 00:42:37.760 understanding of why he was there. And I'm sure that he did. You 478 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:39.960 know, that seemed like something that he would just happily take to his grave 479 00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:49.280 as kind of like an inside joke with the whole world. But I don't 480 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.760 know, like every story needs that, you know, Hero's journey. You 481 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.800 know, we can we can plug, we can plug the Hobbits story into 482 00:42:55.840 --> 00:43:00.719 the hero's journey. They've left home, you know, they're out in the 483 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:07.320 wilderness, and they've met that reclusive wise old Hermits. But even then, 484 00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:14.639 the wise old Hermit plays some sort of role in the larger quest, and 485 00:43:15.039 --> 00:43:22.000 again Tom Bombadville seemingly didn't aside from again getting them out of getting them out 486 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:29.400 of the scrape and barrows. And so I don't know, what do you 487 00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:32.840 think, like, maybe you can fill them some some spaces that I'm overlooking. 488 00:43:32.840 --> 00:43:35.719 What do you think? Well, I think there are a couple of 489 00:43:35.760 --> 00:43:38.800 ways to go at this. For one, I remember reading I feel like 490 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:42.880 it must have been one of his letters, but I just can't recall where, 491 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:47.519 you know, he asked the question or is responding to the question of 492 00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:52.239 you know, basically, why did they run into Tombombado the old Forest? 493 00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:58.920 And I remember his responses that's where he lives, just like that's just like 494 00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:07.159 Goldberry saying, who's Tombambodo? He is right, And so the certain truth 495 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.280 behind that they get to go back the idea that Tolkie's just discovering this world 496 00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:19.280 along with the Hobbits and with us um but on it's more of a higher 497 00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:23.639 view on it, on the kind of literary criticism here. I think that 498 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:29.400 he provides, there's such a powerful foil against all the ambitions of power that 499 00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.280 we see throughout the legendarium um. And I knew Tolkien, you know, 500 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:36.719 writes one of his letters that you know, Lord of the Rings is not 501 00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:43.039 fundamentally a story about freedom, but about God's soul right to divine honor right. 502 00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:49.320 And so all of the villains great and petty throughout his legendarium are these 503 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:53.519 people, or at least these beings who are grasping at power and in turn 504 00:44:53.679 --> 00:45:00.239 become graphs by power. Yeah, right, whereas Tombombodo stands as such a 505 00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:07.559 contrast to you know that that pride, and so he provides that kind of 506 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:13.719 character foil. Even though he doesn't necessarily advanced the plot, he defends it, 507 00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:23.079 I suppose, Yeah, yeah, yeah, he provides. And going 508 00:45:23.119 --> 00:45:30.000 back to my earlier response regarding him being this embodiment, he provides a sort 509 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:42.079 of encapsulation of of what the Hobbits are going out to to do. Because 510 00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:49.920 I've always I've always entertained the pet theory that that the Lord of the Rings 511 00:45:49.960 --> 00:45:57.079 is not principally about destroying the Ring, but it's about defending the Shire because 512 00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.159 spoiler alert, after the destruction of the ring, story isn't over, Like 513 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:04.360 it's not the structure of the ring, and then everybody goes to separate ways 514 00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:06.639 and the stories. Ever. Oh wait, what was that? Was that 515 00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:09.519 a post credit scene? I don't remember? Yeah, no, it was 516 00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:14.159 a It was a It was a ten second clip that that Sam saw in 517 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:17.400 the last year. Yeah, yeah, that could have been so much more. 518 00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:24.880 But like people just skate over that that portion, and because they've seen 519 00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:30.880 the movies and the movie skate over that portion. But you know, from 520 00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:35.599 from a from a narrative perspective, from a from a maybe not a narrative 521 00:46:35.599 --> 00:46:39.199 perspective, but from a a I hate to say it like this, but 522 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:46.440 a consumer perspective, it seems odd to structure. Uh, you know two 523 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:52.239 and a half books about this one thing. You gotta ring, you gotta 524 00:46:52.239 --> 00:46:54.239 throw in a volcano. That's what the book is about, right, No, 525 00:46:54.400 --> 00:47:00.559 it's not because all of that that they went through, all the all 526 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:06.519 the near depths, all the captivity, all the fights, all everything was 527 00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:14.559 to prepare them to take back the Shire. It was to prepare them to 528 00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:19.679 fight for the good the beautiful on the truth, which obviously the Shire intentionally 529 00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:28.880 or not represents. And so yeah, I have I have a lot of 530 00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:31.920 thoughts and they come at me fast, they leave me just one thing another. 531 00:47:32.559 --> 00:47:40.559 Um. But yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's I think 532 00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:45.039 that's right. And I've long thought that if we could make three movies out 533 00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:46.440 of the Hobbit, we can get at least one out of the Scouring of 534 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:51.440 the Shire. Seriously, well yeah, like, yeah, come on, 535 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.599 man, it doesn't it doesn't take it doesn't take a filmography like Peter Jackson's 536 00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:59.840 to know that you can make something out of the Scouring of the Shire. 537 00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.960 It's it's all. But yeah, I mean, as you said that, 538 00:48:04.400 --> 00:48:08.119 ultimately that is the climax of the story that, um, you know, 539 00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:12.800 the hero's journey, it's not over until you take the victory back home, 540 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:15.199 right, You have to take the spoils of Mortar back to the Shire before 541 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:20.960 it's over. And when you do that, you come to find the ultimately, 542 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.639 the home that you're defending is not the same place at the beginning of 543 00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:28.920 the story. So I ultimately pro to us to leave all together. Yeah, 544 00:48:29.800 --> 00:48:32.800 but if you fight for it, if you fight for it, you 545 00:48:32.880 --> 00:48:37.599 might be able to make it better than when you left it. It won't 546 00:48:37.599 --> 00:48:39.239 be to say it'll be different. It won't be the it won't be the 547 00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:45.960 shire that you left, but it can be restored and may be made better. 548 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:51.440 Right, and certainly can be argued that the Hobbits of the shire Um 549 00:48:52.239 --> 00:48:58.360 ultimately were better for you know, what they went through compared to the beginning 550 00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:04.400 when they're so naive and passive and really concerned about self preservation because they never 551 00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:09.000 had to actually deal with any conflict m serious sense. Frodo even says, 552 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:13.159 is it Froto, Yes, it Froto? Maybe it's Bilbo. I think 553 00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:20.280 it's Frodo, though who says that, or he thinks to himself that it 554 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:25.559 would be it would be good for the Hobbits as a whole if some sort 555 00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:31.840 of difficulty was visited upon them, because they're so content, they're so comfortable, 556 00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:37.280 they have so few real problems, and they've just become lazy. They've 557 00:49:37.320 --> 00:49:45.840 become they've become contented in their simple life, and you know, Frodo saw 558 00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:50.239 that that's not that's not good for a soul. That's not good for a 559 00:49:50.280 --> 00:49:53.239 person to just be fat and happy, which you know, that's the hobbit 560 00:49:53.360 --> 00:50:00.440 is fat and happy um. And he got his wish because the the shire 561 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:07.199 was for a little while destroyed, but it emerged not just victorious, but 562 00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:14.000 stronger. You know. Now they had they had malaren trees from from from 563 00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:19.079 Gladiel, they had, they had all these improvements, and that only came 564 00:50:19.159 --> 00:50:22.760 because they had. What they loved was taken away from them, and it 565 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.400 was the you don't know what you got, tell it's gone mentality. They 566 00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.559 saw how good they had it, and they fought for They stood up and 567 00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:37.559 fought for it and took it back, made it better, and yeah, 568 00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:43.360 they're again there. Every chapter in the Legendarium has so much that you could 569 00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.480 just pick apart. It's unreal. And you know, along the same lines, 570 00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:52.159 maybe that is precisely why Tom Bombadle left the barrel Whites on his borders, 571 00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:57.880 because they served a purpose in teaching the Hobbits to call out for the 572 00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:05.519 light amidst the darkness. Yeah, I had never thought about that. But 573 00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:09.599 again, like he could have, he could have just snapped his fingers, 574 00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:14.920 popped over there and you know, taking them out, robbed all the barrows 575 00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:17.760 and come home or rich and happy man. He never did that why because 576 00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:23.360 yeah, maybe maybe in his in his immense power, he saw that there 577 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:30.320 was some benefit to leaving this threat in the world because maybe someone would come 578 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:32.519 along, and maybe he knew it would be at the Hobbits. I don't 579 00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:37.760 know, but he knew maybe he thought or suspected that someone would come along 580 00:51:37.400 --> 00:51:45.159 who needed that challenge, right, and so maybe that was teaching them something 581 00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:51.199 where you know, it's almost a similar picture where you know, the Hobbits 582 00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:53.000 are kind of grow uping in the darkness, and then you know, fast 583 00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:58.639 forward to say Sam in the later Shilo, you know, calling out for 584 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:02.880 the light of her end um. And so I think it could be argued 585 00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:07.480 that kind of existentially, the barrel whites almost served a good purpose within Tom's 586 00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.280 designs, if he even had designs, And again that's kind of up for 587 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:16.480 debate, right yeah, and I yeah, and that's a that's a big 588 00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:22.760 bit whether he had designs or not. But that's an interesting thought regardless. 589 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:25.679 If nothing else, I think we can chalk it up to a providence in 590 00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:30.119 the grand scale, which again we see throughout the Legendarium. Yeah, yeah, 591 00:52:30.199 --> 00:52:35.599 yeah, Tom Bombadill, he wasn't there because that was where he decided 592 00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:40.960 to lay down his roots. He was there because that was where he was 593 00:52:42.000 --> 00:52:45.840 supposed to be. Whether it was his design or luvatars or you know, 594 00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:53.880 any any mixture or any cocktail of complex uh complex involvements, he was where 595 00:52:53.920 --> 00:53:00.639 he needed to be, and it was for a purpose. Before we wrap 596 00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:01.840 it up, we haven't said a whole lot about Goldberry. Do you need 597 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:10.199 just general thoughts on Goldberry? I have. I have read some interesting things 598 00:53:10.199 --> 00:53:22.480 about Goldberry, mostly surrounding the the imagery and presence of water wherever she is. 599 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:28.960 You know, she like before we even meet her, Tom is collecting 600 00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:37.079 well she's the river's daughter for one um, but Tom's collecting flowers from the 601 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:43.599 river to take to her whenever, whenever she is, is it when she's 602 00:53:43.639 --> 00:53:45.880 around it's raining, or she's around and it's not. I think it's when 603 00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:53.559 she's around it's raining. There's this something very liquidy about her descriptions, very 604 00:53:53.679 --> 00:54:00.320 fluid, very very aquatic, and so you know, I go along with 605 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:08.800 my to go along with my bombadil as as spirit of earth or of goodness 606 00:54:08.960 --> 00:54:16.000 or beauty. I think that I don't know what she's meant to be in 607 00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:27.320 terms of like an embodied thing. But narratively, gosh, Tolkien was such 608 00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.920 a such a crazy man. I don't know, but I think that narratively 609 00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:42.440 she's meant to serve and maybe compliment or maybe represent her own form of just 610 00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:52.079 natural beauty. Because again, the like the way she's described so it it's 611 00:54:52.079 --> 00:54:58.280 so velvety, right, Like it's so just just smooth and like in my 612 00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:01.760 mind, whenever I whenever, for my first time on whenever I read about 613 00:55:01.800 --> 00:55:08.719 Goldberry, like she was never standing still like she she like her her essence 614 00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:15.679 was just always kind of rippling um, because that's just the aura that she 615 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:24.159 has in the story. She's just this this ethereal thing um, which makes 616 00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:27.639 all the all the sense of the world. Why she would be with Tom 617 00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:34.679 Bombadill, and you know, she's she's almost like like, uh, the 618 00:55:34.760 --> 00:55:45.199 embodiment of of like femininity contrasted with Bombadill's embodiment of masculinity, right, because 619 00:55:45.239 --> 00:55:49.400 like he's always out, he's beaten up old man Willow, he's going out 620 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.599 and saving the Hobbits, he's getting dirty, he's out in the mud, 621 00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:57.400 he's walking through the forest. But Goldberry is out in the garden, right 622 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:04.039 and she's she's she's sick and creating the rain. She's doing all these all 623 00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:12.440 these very soft and and you know, creative in the in the natural sense, 624 00:56:12.519 --> 00:56:20.840 while Tom is out there ordering and putting things right. Um. So, 625 00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:25.159 yeah, I don't know what Goldberry is. But but you know, 626 00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:31.079 you read, you read the chapter that she's in once, and I don't 627 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:35.719 know how people can read that chapter and then not go back to it and 628 00:56:35.880 --> 00:56:42.280 subsequent readings. Um, if only for the imagery in the presence of Goldberry, 629 00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:46.320 because like the Hobbits are immediately captured by her, you know, they're 630 00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:52.960 immediately enthralled by her. Um, And I don't know how the reader could 631 00:56:52.000 --> 00:57:00.119 not be equally enthralled. Just so, she's she's other. She's other in 632 00:57:00.119 --> 00:57:06.199 a way that I can't quite describe, right, She's very much the ideal 633 00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:09.559 of beauty to the point where, you know, when I'm just reviewing the 634 00:57:09.559 --> 00:57:14.000 Shop for Today, where you know, Frodo first encounters her and he just 635 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.639 starts speaking these poetic praise to her to the point where he's surprised about the 636 00:57:17.639 --> 00:57:22.760 owned words that he's saying. And then, of course, if you read 637 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:27.079 The Adventures of Tom Bombadelle and the Tales of the Perils realm. You know, 638 00:57:27.199 --> 00:57:30.480 she is kind of playing around with Tom but really drawing him in, 639 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:35.320 right, he has to chase her and catch her. And I know that 640 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:37.920 there are you know, some old I think finished tales about you know, 641 00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.719 this water spirit where you know, if you're able to catch her, she 642 00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:45.840 has to marry you. And so there are some mythological connections there, but 643 00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:50.440 not really qualified to go in there too much, but I know there's something 644 00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.280 there. But yeah, and so she really plays around with him, draws 645 00:57:53.320 --> 00:57:58.119 him in, and so something like she's beauty, he's goodness, and they 646 00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:05.840 create this true realm together through that dialectic she's beauty, he's goodness. Together 647 00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:09.840 they create truth. M I like that. I like that. I like 648 00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:14.599 that equation. Um, I like that a lot. I like that way 649 00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.760 of thinking about it. Well, before we wrap things up, do give 650 00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:22.320 any other thoughts anything that we didn't mention that you want to bring up? 651 00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:29.880 Mmmm so much, But I'll keep it on topic. I know that there 652 00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:37.920 are there are people out there who who skip the poetry and lordings and they 653 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:45.199 skipped the Bombadil chapter. And I think that those people are doing themselves a 654 00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:54.440 catastrophic disservice by doing so. Because yes, Tom Bombadill and Goldberry, they 655 00:58:54.480 --> 00:59:00.840 are both enigmatic characters. There is no manual on who they are, what 656 00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:05.400 they are, why they are, But they are. Who is Tom? 657 00:59:06.079 --> 00:59:08.519 Who's Tom Bombadill? He is? Who are you? I am? Like 658 00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:19.840 they just are. And and as our conversation this evening I think demonstrates there 659 00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:25.960 there's a lot of value that can come from encountering that sort of difficult, 660 00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:35.679 that sort of difficult transcendental fact in wrestling with it. Because again, I 661 00:59:35.719 --> 00:59:37.880 don't know who Tom Bombadilla is. You don't know who Tom Bombadill is. 662 00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:43.159 We can speculate until you know Gabriel blows his horn, but we're not going 663 00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:51.480 to get any closer more than likely. But good things can come from speculating. 664 00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:53.840 That's something that you're never going to get the answer to. And like, 665 00:59:53.880 --> 00:59:59.400 if nothing else, I think that that is obviously I think that he 666 00:59:59.440 --> 01:00:02.400 serves other purposes. But if nothing else, I think that he serves this 667 01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:09.599 amazing purpose his chapter, his presence, it serves this amazing purpose of just 668 01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:16.280 shifting, shifting the reader's perspective, because up to that point in the story, 669 01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:21.920 it's very nuts and bolts. You know, it's Gandalf arrives at the 670 01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:25.880 Shire. There's a party. Gandolf comes and goes for about seventeen years. 671 01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:30.599 They finally decide to leave, and then they're running away from Ring Race in 672 01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:35.960 the Old Forest for one of the most horrifying chapters in all of literature. 673 01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:37.719 Like, that's the story up to that point, and then you get to 674 01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:46.239 Tom Bombadill and everything completely shifts, like the tone, the style, everything 675 01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:52.239 about the story shifts. But as soon as they leave, it goes back 676 01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:58.360 to what it was just before. And so he's like this page break. 677 01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:04.800 He's like this metaphysical page break right in the middle of the first book of 678 01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:08.920 the Lord Rings, like right when things are getting going told teams like okay 679 01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:16.079 and sidebar Tom Bombadil. But again, Tolkien never wasted a word, so 680 01:01:16.119 --> 01:01:22.480 it's unlikely that he would waste a chapter. What would then be the point 681 01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:28.639 of including a person like Tom Bombadill. Maybe it's just to meditate on beauty, 682 01:01:28.880 --> 01:01:34.440 on goodness, truth, on love, on hospitality, on power or 683 01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:38.559 the lack thereof. Maybe it's just supposed to be a meditation. Again, 684 01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:45.559 I don't know, but you're not going to You're going to rob yourself of 685 01:01:45.599 --> 01:01:51.559 that pleasure by skipping over it, because the introduction is hey doll, dairy 686 01:01:51.599 --> 01:01:54.800 doll ring and dog billow like, don't let that fool you. There is 687 01:01:54.880 --> 01:02:01.000 some heavy stuff to be taken from the life and the chapter of Tom bomb 688 01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:05.599 Bill. Don't rob yourself of that opportunity, That's what I was saying. 689 01:02:06.079 --> 01:02:10.559 Yeah, And you know, so many of Tom's little rhymes sound like nonsense 690 01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:14.559 to us, but it might be the you, we who've lost the right 691 01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:21.559 sense to understand the significance, and so sometimes we need to It was C. 692 01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:25.480 S. Lewis who said I hope one day to be old enough to 693 01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:31.639 read fairy fairy tales again. You know, there there's something, there's something 694 01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:38.639 great about being able to return to a state of childlike wonder, right, 695 01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:45.119 and that escape enables you to recover something that then you can bring back into 696 01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:52.519 your main narrative. And so time spent in the world of fairy is not 697 01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:57.840 necessarily wasted, and less of course you wasted. Yeah, and that's that's 698 01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:00.840 entirely on you. What you do when you get to the careless realm is 699 01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:04.360 up to you, and you can look for a way out, or you 700 01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:07.679 can go further up and further in Yeah, it's Tolkien sets in non fairy 701 01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:13.760 stories that the realm of fairy is neither heaven nor hell, is something like 702 01:03:14.159 --> 01:03:19.679 the crossroads, right, it's something like the path, and so the world 703 01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:22.760 of fairies where you kind of get your mornings and figure out which direction you 704 01:03:22.800 --> 01:03:28.480 need to be going. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I often 705 01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:32.800 wonder, I often wonder what would what would our world look like with just 706 01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:38.760 a bit more fairy in it? What would what would our our world look 707 01:03:38.800 --> 01:03:47.239 like if we just introduced a little bit more of the fantastical into into our 708 01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:52.920 day to day Um, and again I have I have no answer, but 709 01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:57.079 it's fun to think about. Yeah, I think that's a great place to 710 01:03:57.159 --> 01:04:00.440 kind of leave things off. And so Jeremy mean, I've enjoyed this conversation. 711 01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:05.760 I felt like it was a meaningful escape. I agree, this was 712 01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:16.039 This was a necessary and much appreciated for a into other other areas of reality, 713 01:04:16.079 --> 01:04:19.599 other areas of existence that I don't get to spend enough time in. 714 01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:26.960 So this was again my pleasure, my privilege. I enjoyed myself thoroughly. 715 01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:30.639 All right, appreciate it, and I'm sure we'll do it again. Look 716 01:04:30.639 --> 01:04:51.320 forward to it. I believe that that was a worthwhile conversation about this mysterious 717 01:04:51.360 --> 01:04:58.199 figure who is worthy of regular conversation, and be sure to subscribe to Jeremy's 718 01:04:58.199 --> 01:05:03.920 podcast through the Keyhole as well as a substack at Keyhole dot substack dot com. 719 01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:08.039 With my schedule constantly shifting around, it's hard to say for sure what 720 01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:10.679 the topic will be for our next full episode, but you should be able 721 01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:14.480 to count on it either being River Random or Smith of Wooten Major. But 722 01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:16.400 that's it for now, and again, be sure to head over to Patreon 723 01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:20.480 dot com slash smithic Mind to lend your support, and until next time, 724 01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:23.840 I wish you many meaningful trails ahead.