1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:49,359 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:49,439 --> 00:00:54,320 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Cynthia Hell, director 11 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,520 of Burden of Proof, and Stephen Pandos, brother of Jennifer Pandos, here 12 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,840 to talk about the HBO Max series Burden of Proof. Cynthia and Stephen, 13 00:01:03,879 --> 00:01:07,599 thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having us. Yeah, 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:14,120 thank you. So let's go ahead and get some introductory material here out 15 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,640 of the way before we talk about your serious Burden of Proof? Can you 16 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,719 start by telling us a little bit about yourself? Cynthia will start with you, 17 00:01:21,799 --> 00:01:26,959 and then Steven, I'll have you jumped in. I'm a filmmaker based 18 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:33,079 in Durham, North Carolina. I've been making documentaries for now twenty five years 19 00:01:33,159 --> 00:01:37,560 and this last project, Burden of Proof. We've been working on this one 20 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:45,840 since twenty fifteen, or a third of your career. Exactly where do I 21 00:01:45,879 --> 00:01:49,000 go from here? As always like panic, Oh that's where we come in. 22 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,599 And Stephen, how about you? I'm Stephen Pandos. I live in 23 00:01:53,799 --> 00:01:57,760 Charlotte, North Carolina and work in a commercial real state investment. How did 24 00:01:57,799 --> 00:02:02,640 the two of you end up connect team to build this relationship that resulted in 25 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:07,599 this wonderful product, Burden of Proof? He sent me on LinkedIn message that 26 00:02:07,719 --> 00:02:16,439 said call me. Did he say anything else? Was there a pitch contained 27 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,680 or Stephen? No, no, no, it was not. My recollection 28 00:02:21,759 --> 00:02:27,599 is the only thing it said was called me? And so I had just 29 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:32,840 recently brought on board Christine delp who's the producer on this project, and she 30 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,080 had just graduated from college and her job for that first, the first couple 31 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:46,240 of weeks was to respond to emails and clean out my voice messages and LinkedIn 32 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,639 messages or whatever. And so she came across this one and she's Christie's the 33 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,280 one that actually called Stephen that day. Stephen, did you indicate that you 34 00:02:54,319 --> 00:02:59,879 were the brother of a missing person and wanted to talk to her about it? 35 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,800 Documentary? Or what did you say? I don't I don't recall really 36 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,599 the specific message. It might just have been as blunt as please call me 37 00:03:07,719 --> 00:03:14,719 or something I think it was. And that's how it started. So it 38 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,120 was with I don't know how long the first conversation with Christine was, but 39 00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:23,560 it was a while, and she hung on and heard the story even though 40 00:03:23,599 --> 00:03:25,800 Cynthia was told her to hang up on me. Yeah she was. We 41 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,039 were this is a time when we were working out at my kitchen. We 42 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:34,560 were in between offices, I like to say, and I could see her 43 00:03:35,319 --> 00:03:38,759 getting visibly emotional as she's talking with Stephen, and I didn't know what was 44 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,599 going on. I could be some crazy person who the heck knows, and 45 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,159 so I was motioning for her to hang up on him, and she's showing 46 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,120 me away. You know, it's good. It's good. And so when 47 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:54,039 she hangs up, she tells me the story that Stephen just told her, 48 00:03:54,240 --> 00:04:01,159 and she proceeds to google all of the information, and everything Stephen had conveyed 49 00:04:01,439 --> 00:04:05,280 was there, as much as we could find online. We knew he wasn't 50 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,759 making up a story, and so we spent the next couple of hours just 51 00:04:09,919 --> 00:04:15,040 talking about the implications of what this kind of tragedy has on someone like Stephen 52 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:20,879 and his family. Stephen at the point you reached out to Cynthia and Christine, 53 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:28,920 had you seen Cynthia's twenty fourteen documentary Private Violence had how did she move? 54 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,959 Yeah? No, not. At the time. I got referred to 55 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:38,240 Cynthia by a firm in New York, Tandescent Films. And you know that 56 00:04:38,319 --> 00:04:43,279 was a result of me just calling just picking up the phone and calling people 57 00:04:43,319 --> 00:04:46,800 who were in the documentary film business. They were an executive producer on Private 58 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,360 Violence, by the way, Yeah, just by coincidence, and since what 59 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:56,399 I was talking about was sort of along the same lines as Private Violence in 60 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:01,600 terms of what I was thinking about at the time about and it's the nuances 61 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:05,879 and complications from it, and so they suggested arverage out to Cynthia. So 62 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:10,600 I did, Cynthia, once you heard Stephen's story, did you anticipate that 63 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,480 this is going to be a multi year event? How did you see this 64 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,480 partnership? I'm spooling, of course not. I keep promising myself after I 65 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:23,360 conclude a project that the next one will not take as long as this last 66 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:28,319 one. I keep out doing myself. I've decided to never make that promise 67 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,800 again. I think that when you tackle anything like this, you have to 68 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,439 be willing to go wherever the story takes you. And I've learned that over 69 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:42,519 the years and my career. That's what really makes a good story and a 70 00:05:42,519 --> 00:05:45,680 good film, as if you have the patience to let it play out. 71 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,319 And so obviously we did not know that this one would take this long. 72 00:05:48,759 --> 00:05:53,199 And if you had told both of us that when we first did that first 73 00:05:53,199 --> 00:05:57,240 shoot that we would be filming for seven and a half years, I imagine 74 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,680 both of us would have said no. Steven and myself would have been like, 75 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:05,040 no way, We're never going to do this. But it's just the 76 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:11,079 road that we took, the path we took, and it led us to 77 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,560 where we are. Now, what did that shoot actually look like like? 78 00:06:14,639 --> 00:06:17,120 How often per week, per month, per year. Would you see each 79 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,879 other and you would show up at Steven's house with cameras and go, Okay, 80 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,560 it's time to go to work. I'm really curious about what it looks 81 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,839 like to shoot with someone for seven years. The first time we shoot, 82 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,360 it's the first time I meet Stephen, so I had not actually spoken to 83 00:06:33,439 --> 00:06:39,160 him. I just was getting the information from Christine and from the initial conversation 84 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,720 she had with him. We decided that it was worth pursuing and at least 85 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,759 seeing where a couple of shoots would get it, or at least one shoot 86 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,720 with Stephen. And so Stephen drives to Durham. At this point, I 87 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:57,959 think that he's willing to do whatever it takes to try to get interest in 88 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,600 his sister's case and feel and like he'd hit a brick wall. So he 89 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,199 rolls up in front of my house and we just film. We film pretty 90 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:12,000 much as he's walking in the door. And we've been filming with him like 91 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,360 that ever since. So those scenes are in the first episode, right, 92 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,519 Yep. It's the first thing with Steven is that first meeting, that first 93 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,920 encounter with us, Because for me, it's really important that I capture those 94 00:07:24,959 --> 00:07:30,160 first conversations because a lot of times those are the most revealing conversations. You 95 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,160 get the most raw emotion because it's the first time that they're telling me that 96 00:07:35,319 --> 00:07:40,839 story. Is the first time Steven's telling me what happened, And so I 97 00:07:40,879 --> 00:07:45,480 just wanted to be sure that we captured that. Tell us a little bit 98 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,800 about Burden of Proof. Then someone hasn't seen the documentary series yet, what 99 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,519 is it, Stephen? You want to tackle that one of you? I 100 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,399 think that's up to you. I'm a little too close. I'm in the 101 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:05,040 fish bowl. I guess I can give you what we call our elevator pitch, 102 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:11,600 which is this is Burden of Proof is the story of Jennifer Pandos, 103 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,920 a fifteen year old girl who went missing in Williamsburg, Virginia in nineteen eighty 104 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:22,720 seven. We follow her brother as he seeks justice for his sister. So 105 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,959 that, in a nutshell, is what this story is about. As soon 106 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:33,159 as we started receiving requests from our listeners, hey have you guys watched Burden 107 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:35,799 of Proof? Are you covering Burden of Proof? And I looked at the 108 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:41,600 information about this. The first thing that I really thought was brother seeking justice 109 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,320 for murdered sister. That sounds a lot like my partner in crime. This 110 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,240 is so interesting and so storyline there. It's a very familiar storyline, and 111 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:56,120 so we were hooked from minute one. Stephen, your story is it's so 112 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,200 similar to Bills that I was sitting there watching the documentary and going sounds so 113 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,720 familiar, like you guys have gone through a lot of the same struggles in 114 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,480 terms of law enforcement issues, and I just want to take a minute, 115 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:09,000 just on a personal level and say how sorry I am that you've had to 116 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,799 go through that, and I really feel for you in every way that I 117 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,600 can, So I just wanted to throw that out there. Oh thank you. 118 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:22,840 It's drawing. One of the things that was very striking for us was 119 00:09:22,279 --> 00:09:28,600 there's also a contrast and I'm not criticizing here, but I don't think there's 120 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:35,320 much way around this. We were floored by how little Kristin and I knew 121 00:09:35,519 --> 00:09:41,000 about the Jennifer Pandos disappearance. Kristin lives in Williamsburg. She's a teacher in 122 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:45,120 Williamsburg. She actually graduated from the same high school, Lafayette High School, 123 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,960 that Jennifer was attending, and Jennifer's disappearance happens just a couple of months after 124 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:56,159 the October nineteen eighty six murder of my sister Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. 125 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,360 And one of the things that's come up with us into discussion with other people 126 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,720 outside the four of us here is that one made the observation that they felt 127 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:11,080 like the Colonial Parkway murders, which weren't called that back then because they hadn't 128 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,320 even all happened yet, but that the high profile murder of Kathy Thomas and 129 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:22,399 Rebeccadowski, followed by these murders of these other young people sucked the oxygen out 130 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:28,480 of the room in Williamsburg from a kind of a media perspective which we'd never 131 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,960 thought about. Kristen and I we were like shocked by that. One of 132 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:39,759 our strongest takeaways from watching Burden of Proof is why didn't the Pandos case receive 133 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:46,039 more attention back in nineteen eighty seven when Jennifer first disappeared. Stephen, do 134 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:50,559 you have a sense of why that might have happened? No, when Jennifer 135 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,960 disappeared, I was in college in North Carolina and never really moved back to 136 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,639 Williamsburg. Other than for maybe a few months after that, and dealing with 137 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:05,399 law enforcement was always something that my parents did. I was whatever, eighteen 138 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,759 at the time. That just wasn't It wasn't my job to that was my 139 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,159 parents thing to do. So I don't know, I don't have a good 140 00:11:11,159 --> 00:11:16,399 answer for that, Cynthia. Do you have any sense of why this case? 141 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:22,600 Yeah? It was so low key for so long that we had that 142 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:28,360 exact same question whenever we first started, because when you would google Jennifer Pandos, 143 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,399 there were only just a few mentions, and you could if you did 144 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:37,519 some real hard digging, you could find those earlier articles or mentions about her 145 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,399 being missing in the local paper. But that was it for us. It 146 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:48,480 was very disturbing, especially with what was going on with the Parkway murders. 147 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,480 And I just want to say, the your and Stevens stories, the way 148 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:58,159 that they parallel are so uncanny. Yeah. Yeah, And so I didn't 149 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,480 put that together either into we got this request from y'all for this podcast, 150 00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:07,639 but it was something that we would talk about quite often with our team he 151 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:13,639 or our internal team as to how did this get such little attention and why 152 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:20,960 with a fifteen year old girl missing, was there not more done? I 153 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:26,840 think that it was a different time, and with kids going missing, unfortunately, 154 00:12:26,039 --> 00:12:30,759 they're like, Okay, she ran away, and the time before cell 155 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:35,720 phones and new constant contact with people. And so I think that for the 156 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:43,240 cops, at least from the questioning that I have done within the police department 157 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,279 and the former investigators, it was like they just assumed that it was a 158 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,639 runaway and they treated as as such. But even if that's the case, 159 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:56,879 a runaway team is at so much is in so much danger of something worse 160 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:01,159 happening, even if she did run away, that this wasn't given the kind 161 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,440 of attention that it should have been giving is so sad. Agreed that the 162 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:11,840 times were very different, but it's actually shocking now, especially to look back 163 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,799 in retrospect. And agreed, this is a pre cell phone, pre social 164 00:13:15,799 --> 00:13:20,279 media environment. When we speak about the Colonial Parkway murders, I always feel 165 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,679 like I'm talking about the Civil War, because we have to remind we speak 166 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,840 to college audiences, for example, they will ask why didn't somebody call on 167 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:33,960 their cell phone? And how come they didn't get surveillance video. People forget 168 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:39,720 that surveillance video is a relatively new thing, except for maybe your local seven 169 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:46,480 eleven. You didn't see cameras outside of homes and retail establishments for the most 170 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,440 part. There's all kinds of changes. And then, of course I think 171 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,039 you were touching on this a little bit indirectly, which is the idea of 172 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,519 a runaway fifteen year old girl or any young person could be in danger. 173 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,399 And we talk about sex traffic now, which I don't remember people talking about 174 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:07,600 thirty years ago. No, but it's actually shocking to look back and see 175 00:14:07,799 --> 00:14:15,200 just how little was done with Jennifer's disappearance in nineteen eighty seven. Yeah, 176 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,159 And I think for us that was always like a big mystery, and that 177 00:14:18,279 --> 00:14:22,679 original case file from nineteen eighty seven was missing. We didn't have a clear 178 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:28,080 picture as of what did actually happen in nineteen eighty seven. Did they get 179 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:35,200 the telephone records or did they go to gate and acquire the ins and outs 180 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,240 of people coming in out of that gated community, Like, we didn't have 181 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:43,279 any idea if any of that had transpired. Was anybody from law enforcement able 182 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,240 to answer those questions? The original investigators didn't move to the moon, weren't 183 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:54,120 some of those people available to answer those questions. Yeah, and that is 184 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,799 a part of the second case file that was created into two thousands, where 185 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:05,000 Wendy and Jeff the lines there were the investigators in the two thousands, and 186 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,679 they called the original investigators in nineteen eighty seven, and so they asked them 187 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:15,120 about certain things like did you take the letter? Or was the note in 188 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,840 the case file? What was in the case file since it's not here. 189 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:22,480 Obviously those original investigators didn't have a lot to say about it, at least 190 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:26,679 according to the notes from Wendy and Jeff, but they were very certain that 191 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,080 they had collected the note that was left at the scene, and they also 192 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:33,679 just remembered it as a runaway case. Stephen, do you know if your 193 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:37,080 parents ever actually went to the guard gate and asked, Hey, did somebody 194 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,720 call in? Did somebody come in? I was explaining to Bill in our 195 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,000 first episode, because Bill isn't based here, but I am. I was 196 00:15:45,039 --> 00:15:48,720 explaining about the process for getting into and out of King's Mill. I have 197 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:50,559 friends who lived there, and so I spent a lot of time in my 198 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:54,360 childhood going in and out. They know that it's very secure, and you 199 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,720 have to go to the gate, you have to stop, you have to 200 00:15:56,759 --> 00:16:00,039 call in, they give you the past. Did your parents ever check on 201 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,759 who came in and who came out and if anybody actually came for Jennifer that 202 00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:07,519 night? Yeah, I don't recall. I'm sure they did, because you 203 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,399 know, at the time, the one ninety nine gate at King's Mill closed 204 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:15,519 at midnight or eleven o'clock or whatever it was, so it was only the 205 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:18,799 Route sixty gate was the only one opened twenty four hours in the in nineteen 206 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,720 eighty seven. Okay, that's good to know. So in terms of the 207 00:16:22,799 --> 00:16:27,759 documentary, one of the questions we wanted to ask was do you feel that 208 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:33,799 you were able to be specific enough in terms of who you think could be 209 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:40,600 responsible for Jennifer's disappearance. The series closes with things in an open ended fashion, 210 00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:45,159 but do you feel and we understand there's restrictions legal and otherwise about what 211 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,240 you can and cannot say in a documentary, do you feel like you were 212 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:52,960 able to take it as far as you wanted to. I thought we took 213 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,879 it as far as we could take it based on where the cops were currently 214 00:16:56,919 --> 00:17:03,639 with the case and with the information that we were able to gain access to 215 00:17:03,679 --> 00:17:10,319 ourselves. It is an active case and they are pursuing suspects, and if 216 00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:12,200 you watch the film, you get a sense of where they're headed. I 217 00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:17,839 think for us, when we first started this process, we really didn't think 218 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,960 of this as a who'd done it with the goal of trying to solve the 219 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,400 case like that was not what our intention was when we first started it. 220 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,160 When we were initially meeting with Stephen, we thought that this was more of 221 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:37,240 a story about a family tragedy and the fallout of that trauma from nineteen eighty 222 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,400 seven, and so that's how we were pursuing the story. But our curiosity 223 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,519 about the case and how, and if you watch the series, you'll see 224 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:49,640 this in the very first frames, how the cops ended up suspecting the parents, 225 00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:53,839 and so we were very curious about that, and so we brought an 226 00:17:53,920 --> 00:18:00,000 investigative reporter or former investigative reporter onto our team to help us. She became 227 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,519 an integral a part of the team, Andrea Wigel when she worked at the 228 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:07,359 News of an Observer for many years here in North Carolina, and so she 229 00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:11,440 became the one that really helped us dissect the case. Because Stephen had sued 230 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,519 the police department or was in the process of doing that to be able to 231 00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:22,160 declare Jennifer as being deceased, I think for the illegal advice, and Stephen, 232 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,160 I'm stepping on all over you right now, But for the illegal advice 233 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,880 that he had received from the attorney that he was working with, he was 234 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:33,759 not able to take action against his parents. And so this was I guess 235 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:41,160 one remedy for Stephen to hopefully take some steps at closure to be able to 236 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,640 say, hey, she's always just been listed as missing, but everybody knows 237 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,599 that Jennifer is not coming back, so let's go ahead and make the move 238 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:53,119 to declare her deceased. And so because of that work that he had done, 239 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,960 he had gained access to that new case file that was created in the 240 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:02,480 two thousands, and this was this big, whopping case file that he walked 241 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,200 into our house on that first day of shooting or filming, and that's the 242 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,119 material that we had to work with. So as the documentary proceeds, you 243 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,839 will see the evidence that we are Steven pulls out, but that we get 244 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:22,559 to understand how the cops suspected who they did suspect. Stephen, are you 245 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:26,279 comfortable referring to Jennifer's case as a homicide case, or would you still prefer 246 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,680 that people refer to it as missing persons. I'm just curious. Yeah, 247 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,599 I haven't really thought about it. I don't believe that my sister is coming 248 00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:37,119 back, so I'm fine either way. I've just always thought a word as 249 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,440 missing. But I didn't I didn't like to sue the police department my petition 250 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:48,359 the court to have Jennifer declared deceased. Originally made an information request like a 251 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,839 public information request to the police department for Jennifer's case file to support the petition 252 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,920 to have her declared deceased. And then what the police department told my attorney 253 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,640 was, look, we can't give you that or this way that you asked 254 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,400 for it, but if you subpoena the information us with that information, we 255 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,640 won't fight it. And that's how I got the That's how I received the 256 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:12,160 case file. And then when I had Jennifer declared deceased, my attorney had 257 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,160 to go meet with the judge and the police department and then he declared Jennifer 258 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,400 deceased and that's when I put a marker in the cemetery. And it was 259 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,519 at the time that that felt like closure. Then, so that was why 260 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:32,400 I did it. I'm still pleasantly surprised they gave you the case file. 261 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:38,319 From personal experience, the FBI has fought us every step of the way, 262 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:44,319 and the FBI is a responsible agency in my sister and Rebecca Dowski's murder. 263 00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:48,319 I think that at the time it was probably the distinction is set. They 264 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:52,759 were treating Jennifer's case as a cold case and not active. And do won't 265 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:56,119 take this offer to say that this opportunity to say that the police department has 266 00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,480 been great to me all the way back to two thousand nine. They've been 267 00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:06,759 really good to me and Collins, and they returned my phone calls and they've 268 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:10,559 just been great to work with. I wish I could say the same. 269 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:17,720 Yes, you're you have a different you're wrestling a different beast altogether. Yeah. 270 00:21:17,759 --> 00:21:19,359 People have said to me, Bill, you should sue the FBI, 271 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:25,519 and it's you do recognize that what that actually looks like is William F. 272 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:32,640 Thomas versus the United States of America. That's actually who I'm suing. Yeah, 273 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,200 when you think about the resources, they can put their own money, 274 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:44,319 Yeah, I think they do cynthing. I know you said that you didn't 275 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,440 set up for it to be who done it. But if I had to 276 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,839 guess, I would imagine that probably tips have begun to come in, either 277 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,160 to you or to Stephen or to James City County. Can you speak to 278 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,319 that whether or not tips have come in. Are you getting leads in this 279 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:02,680 case at all? There? Now, you go ahead. I was gonna 280 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,960 say, no, I haven't. I've received a couple of phone calls that 281 00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:08,920 I've referred to the police department. I know. I've spoken to Jake. 282 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,200 He's told me that he has received some calls, nothing really specific that he 283 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,920 can follow up on, but he has received a few goals. And one 284 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,079 of those calls is from my roommate. Actually, you did, I know 285 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,119 you did speak to her, Yes, yeah, but I know I was 286 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:29,920 very curious whether or not this was going to yield any investigative leads eventually. 287 00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:33,440 Yeah. I hope it does, and I know the police department is hoping 288 00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:37,079 not as well. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 289 00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:49,279 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. 290 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:56,079 Let's talk about Jake Rice for a minute. He appears in the documentary What's 291 00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,880 his role now as a forensic investigator. Is he still with the James City 292 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,920 County Police Department on a full time basis or what's his status if he's there 293 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:11,640 part time. He retired as a police officer, but he still works for 294 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,160 the police department. He just doesn't carry a badge and a gun. And 295 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:21,839 he and Rich are the principal investigators on the case. Jake has the most 296 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,480 history with it, going back to two thousand, probably Tennis, and he 297 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,200 just he knows the most. And what's your relationship like with Investigator Rice, 298 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:36,440 Jake is great. That's not to say that we haven't had tense conversations or 299 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,319 at least from because we have. He has a process that he has to 300 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,079 work through. I have to respect the process. I can't change it. 301 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,640 The only thing I can do is try to help him get through it as 302 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,119 fast as again. But you know, Jake has been terrific. There were 303 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,000 definitely times when I was watching and we were watching you make phone calls to 304 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,480 Jake, and Jake was saying, there's stuff is still out of the lab. 305 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:03,480 I don't have results for you yet, And again I had that sense 306 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:07,240 of deja vu. I've seen this before. I've heard this before. I 307 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:08,920 know, Bill gets these same phone calls, and there's just this a real 308 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:14,119 sense of empathy about this whole entire thing, with what you're going through is 309 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,319 related to what Bill's going through. It's a little startling to realize that seems 310 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:22,440 to be what most people who have a cold case are going through rather than 311 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,640 I think it's the norm rather than a surprise, and I hate that. 312 00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:27,720 I hate that's the norm. One of the things we talk about a mind 313 00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:33,279 over Murder is that there are two hundred and fifty thousand cold case homicides in 314 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,680 the United States, so there are at least potentially millions of people. If 315 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,559 you think about everybody having a few loved ones within their family, there are 316 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:48,640 actually millions of people going through this. It's actually usually a very quiet process. 317 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,839 It was a privilege to meet you through the documentary process, and then 318 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,359 Kristen and I were watching it at the same time, but not in the 319 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,839 same room. Yeah, we're both making a point of Hey, let's watch 320 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,640 these four episodes and compare notes, some of which we did on the air 321 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:11,559 on our podcast. Because it's usually such a private process, it was unusual 322 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:17,079 to see all of these very strong parallels between your journey and mine. I 323 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,440 think I got most heavily involved in Cathy's case in two thousand and nine, 324 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,960 which I think also roughly parallels the time frame where you decided you wanted to 325 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,519 step forward. How did you feel about opening up your at least that part 326 00:25:29,519 --> 00:25:33,480 of your life over the course of seven plus years. I just the big 327 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:40,160 picture was justice for my sister, and so whatever I had to do to 328 00:25:40,279 --> 00:25:45,880 help deliver justice from my sister, what's what I did whatever consequently, Yeah, 329 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,720 that's just what I did. Was always got the big picture of the 330 00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:52,559 big goal was justice from my sister, and so I just did whatever was 331 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:56,920 required for that. Did you ever find yourself circling back with Cynthia as a 332 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:03,359 filmmaker and saying, let's not put that in or did you think to yourself, 333 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,880 I'm focused on the larger goal and I'm willing to do this show the 334 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,039 process works in all. Yeah, I'll let Cynthia answer that. I don't 335 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:18,880 no pressure, Cynthia. No. The interesting thing and when Stephen watched the 336 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:25,680 episodes towards the end, he had not seen anything. He walked out and 337 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:32,759 he said, what did you say again about the the trust exercise. Oh 338 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,480 yeah, this was the ultimate kind of trustball exercise. Because I didn't see 339 00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:42,079 any of it until I guess about a year before it came out. I 340 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,920 saw the first couple episodes and we were still waiting on live results and everything 341 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,519 else for the fourth. But yeah, I didn't see any of it for 342 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:56,079 six and a half years. And this was Cynthia's film, and whatever she 343 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,799 wanted to put it that she could put in it. Yeah, it's a 344 00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:04,279 big responsibility, but it's also an honor to have someone like Stephen trust you 345 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:14,119 like that with all the material that we had and the intimacy, and everyone 346 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,720 that we filmed was great about that, I have to say, or mostly 347 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,480 I have to say, But it's it's like that as a documentary filmmaker all 348 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:29,799 the time. It's like that that fine line between being there and showing enough 349 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:37,680 so the audience is very clear about the emotional trauma and the struggles, and 350 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:44,240 then when does it become exploitation, and so you have to be mindful of 351 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:47,960 that at all times. I feel like Cynthia, I wanted to ask one 352 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,240 thing in particular about the re enactments. I noticed you had actors, of 353 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,160 course, for Jen, for Margie and for Ron. Were you there orchestrating 354 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,680 everything that was going on with all of the actors and actresses. How long 355 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,000 did that take? I'm really curious about that when Stephen, I'm curious how 356 00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:07,839 you felt about watching somebody playing your sister. But let me start with Cynthia. 357 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,759 Talk about the re enactments a little bit. Sure, Yeah, they 358 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,000 were very much a part of the whole process of what I was envisioning for 359 00:28:15,039 --> 00:28:18,920 the film. And I'd never directed actors before, so that was a bit. 360 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,640 I was a bit nervous about that process, as it felt very foreign 361 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:32,720 to me, but I really was determined to use that those recreation scenes to 362 00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:38,359 amplify the unreliableness of memory. That's how it all started, was that we 363 00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:42,119 were getting these different takes on Jennifer, like who Jennifer was. So it 364 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,799 started out with that, like everybody had a different Jennifer when they talked about 365 00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:51,880 her, and I thought that was so interesting and compelling and shouldn't be that 366 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,759 surprising when you think about a fifteen year old girl, she is going to 367 00:28:55,839 --> 00:29:00,240 be a play a different role for different people. She's going to be from 368 00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:03,240 for her mom, her dad, her brother, her friends, her teachers, 369 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,720 she's she will be different and described differently, And that started out this 370 00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:17,440 whole idea of trying to amplify that theme again of having memory being unreliable too. 371 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,160 Stephen, how is it for you watching someone playing Jennifer? So much 372 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,319 of this whole experience and not just the film going back to two thousand and 373 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:30,359 nine has been surreal. And that's just one other surreal moment. But the 374 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,480 first time you know that I met Savannah, Yeah, it was just super 375 00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:38,240 weird. And you know that was long before I had seen anything. I 376 00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:41,960 think it was at a birthday party where for Cynthia. That where I first 377 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,720 met Savannah, that's the actress that played Jennifer. Yeah, that's see, 378 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:51,200 that's another experience that you and Bill actually have in common. When Oxygen Today 379 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,920 documentary on the Colonial Parkway murders, we also had re enactments, and I 380 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,279 remember sitting with Bill in a van right outside of the area where they were 381 00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:04,079 doing a reenactment of Cathy's murder and just asking him or are you okay meeting 382 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:08,160 an actress who's playing your sister. Essentially, I can't imagine how surreal it 383 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,880 is. I think that's a great word Stephen, this is going to be 384 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,880 a very intense and unusual process, but your product is amazing. One of 385 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:22,480 the things I was very struck by were the use of the real life footage 386 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:29,279 from what essentially are interrogations of Stephen and Jennifer's mother. How did you gain 387 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,200 access to them and how did you feel like you were going to preserve the 388 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,559 integrity of the conversation in showing them. Obviously, you're not going to show 389 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,200 hours of footage in a documentary that has a limited runtime, Cynthia, how 390 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,279 do you work around that? The copies of the interrogation were on DVDs in 391 00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:52,079 that original case file that Stephen acquired in twenty fourteen, and so that's how 392 00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:56,599 we got access to that materials because it was just part of what was given 393 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:03,400 over Stephen made this petition, and so when we came across that, when 394 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,319 we watched it, Tom Vickers, who is the editor that I've been working 395 00:31:07,319 --> 00:31:11,559 with for many years and I've been a team or all of the work since 396 00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:18,279 I don't know for fifteen years almost he was like, oh my god, 397 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:21,240 because I was like spot checking stuff because we're out in the field and he's 398 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,640 got to sit down and watch it from start to finish, and so sitting 399 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,039 down and watching it, and we contemplated for a long time as we're editing, 400 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,200 is like, how much do you think that we can show? And 401 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,759 it's like, gosh, it would be amazing to have a whole episode of 402 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,079 just that material so that you can really get a sense of what that experience 403 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:44,039 is like for someone, and especially after you see the ending of the series, 404 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,640 going back and watching that again, and we do visually reference that at 405 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,720 the end of episode four, so that we remind the audience of what emotionally 406 00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:59,440 that probably was doing at that time. It was important for us to have 407 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,480 as much as we could have in there. But yes, when you are 408 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:08,599 doing something for a large streamer broadcaster like HBO, they are concerned about audiences 409 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,559 and making sure that they don't tune away. And so it was a negotiation 410 00:32:14,759 --> 00:32:17,519 as to how much weakening And that was that was long because you know, 411 00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:24,880 that was that first interview with my mom took place on a Thursday, from 412 00:32:27,039 --> 00:32:30,599 around six pm to midnight. There were six hours of it from that day 413 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:37,000 and then three hours of it the following day. Wow, And that was 414 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,200 that was a really hard day. Are you in touch with former investigator Wendy 415 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,640 Reid as well. I talked to Wendy on occasion. I don't talk to 416 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,519 her regularly or anything, but yeah, just on rare occasion I do. 417 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,799 Yeah. So are the two of you on the same page in terms of 418 00:32:53,839 --> 00:33:00,799 your personal theories about the case, about what may have happened to Jennifer or 419 00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:05,319 is there any place in which the two of you very about what you think 420 00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:15,839 may have happened to her. I'll answer it by not answering it, that's 421 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:23,599 what And obviously, as a filmmaker, and I think Steven's been on this 422 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:30,039 similar ride with us, we have to imagine what transpired because that helps us 423 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,519 figure out where do we want to go with asking more questions and who do 424 00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:39,400 we think we should talk to and all that stuff. So, of course, 425 00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:45,880 over the course of working on this case or making the film, I've 426 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,640 had different ideas floating in my head as to what you can think what you 427 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,759 think transpired, and it has varied wildly. I have to say, I 428 00:33:54,799 --> 00:34:00,039 think that what you'll see is we still don't know, because like trying to 429 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:04,240 put those pieces together with what information we do have now, which is a 430 00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:07,320 lot more than what we started with. Some of it still doesn't line up, 431 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:10,840 so like, how does that happen? So still trying to make sense 432 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:17,639 of how she got out of the house without anybody knowing is still a mystery, 433 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:23,679 and so it's yeah, we I mean, I was hoping that we 434 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:28,280 would have more answers and I think we I don't know, Steven, if 435 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,639 you want to add anything to that, No, I think that's that's fair, 436 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:42,679 And it's one of the things that led to all this heartache, and 437 00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:50,000 is speculation, right, try hard not to repeat that same mistake in the 438 00:34:50,039 --> 00:34:58,239 absence of actually knowing. So well put, we're not trying to compare our 439 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:04,679 limited experience with anything close to the number of years now that the two of 440 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,360 you have dedicated to Jennifer's disappearance. Even Christen and I have spent hours talking 441 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,440 about just that one issue, for example, and lots of others. How 442 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,840 did Jennifer get out of the house without anyone noticing? And we went through 443 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,920 any number of options, some of which seemed to make sense to us at 444 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,840 the time, even my view of the case, which again is limited based 445 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,119 on all the articles we've read, watching the series very carefully and really being 446 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:35,639 very impressed with the amount of work that you've put in, you still end 447 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,199 up with almost as many questions as you have answers. Was that a hard 448 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:46,159 sell, Cynthia? For a documentary, we ever under any pressure to push 449 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:51,599 this in a particular direction. Obviously we don't know what happened to Jennifer, 450 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,719 and the series has to end on a question mark. I think that you, 451 00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:04,039 as a filmmaker could have a lot of pressure from executives from certain networks 452 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:08,280 or stream streaming platforms. But working with HBO, they came on board fairly 453 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:14,400 early on for development when we had no idea that we were the case was 454 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:20,280 going to even become active again. So we never said from the very get 455 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,800 go that this was going to be a case that was going to be solved. 456 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,880 So I think that there was never this oh my gosh, you didn't 457 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:31,400 solve that awful. But I do think that as the case became active and 458 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:37,079 we were there in the throws and the thick of the investigation and uncovering things 459 00:36:37,079 --> 00:36:43,239 on our own, there was some use the word excitement, but for lack 460 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,519 of a better word, about excitement over the potential of learning more, and 461 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,639 we do learn a lot more. We don't have the definitive answer, but 462 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:55,079 we do learn a heck of a lot more, and I think that we're 463 00:36:55,119 --> 00:37:01,000 closer to understanding more about Jennifer's state of mind and other things that are going 464 00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:07,159 on surrounding Jennifer that play into this whole case. And so I felt as 465 00:37:07,199 --> 00:37:14,360 though that not having a case that was solved did not hinder the power of 466 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,960 the story when it finally did come to an end for us and how we 467 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:23,199 were telling the story. Would you ever consider returning with the fifth episode if 468 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,360 there were significant developments in the case. Yeah, I would love to be 469 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,960 able to do that, to pick it up and hoping that we do have 470 00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:36,480 more concrete answers. Yeah, Stephen, how do you feel about that? 471 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,639 Yeah, I'm open for it. Well, you just have to wait and 472 00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:47,519 see, you know, if telling Jennifer's story helps others the normal for it, 473 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:53,840 and ultimately I think for us it was like I think and Bill you 474 00:37:53,840 --> 00:38:01,000 were hitting on this earlier, like having the access to a family who is 475 00:38:01,039 --> 00:38:07,159 in this limbo about a cold case and about a family member and not having 476 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:12,679 the answers and this lingering trauma from all of that and what it does to 477 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:19,559 all the parties at play was really important and we didn't want that to be 478 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,719 lost, and that was what our primary storyline was to begin with, and 479 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:29,280 we always honored that even when the case became more active and there's more interest 480 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,679 in the clues and stuff like that. For us on our team and also 481 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,760 with Steven, it's like, it's still about It's still about the process, 482 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:45,360 it's still about the family, and that always was what we made for us 483 00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:52,639 important to continue to follow. And I think that's ultimately what does come out 484 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:57,920 most in our episode where we sat and deconstructed everything. Knowing Jennifer's case and 485 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,199 the whereabouts and the wives and the where fours of it all is great. 486 00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:04,639 But what really came across to me, and I kept saying to Bill over 487 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,400 and over, is how very much I feel through Stephen, how empathetic I 488 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:10,920 felt about all of this. And part of that is just because nobody should 489 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,239 have to go through this. Also part of it is I've watched Bill go 490 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,239 through it, I know it. I just felt an enormous amount of empathy 491 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,679 and sympathy to the point where I couldn't binge it all at once. Normally 492 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,880 I would that I couldn't do it all at once. I had to divide 493 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,039 it up over two days because it just felt at times this is so emotional 494 00:39:30,119 --> 00:39:32,440 and so wrenching, and that I couldn't manage to do it all at once. 495 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,559 If that is your ultimate goal, from my point of view, you 496 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,480 achieved it. I guess. Last question for both of you is what's next 497 00:39:40,599 --> 00:39:45,480 for the two of you? Oh gosh. For me, it's just about 498 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:49,639 moving forward, still doing what I can for Jennifer, but moving forward and 499 00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:59,079 being at peace knowing that I've done all I can do for me. That's 500 00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:01,880 all I ever wanted, all this and the absence of justice from my sister 501 00:40:02,079 --> 00:40:06,960 and the Alumbus piece, Cynthia. It's next for you? I know it's 502 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,400 probably got to feel a little I asked you off air, does this feel 503 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,880 exciting or does it feel anti climactic now that you've got it out there, 504 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,920 this process of so many years work? Yeah? What are you doing now? 505 00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:22,000 Yes? Even I've talked about that a little bit. I feel lost, 506 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:27,039 like unward almost, And filmmakers will say this, I don't know. 507 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:30,880 Filmakers will say that you have to abandon the story, that the story never 508 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,039 concludes. It's one of those things where I don't want to feel like we've 509 00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:39,760 abandoned this storyline or Jennifer's story, and it's still very much present because I 510 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,800 still think that there's things that that we haven't told. There are things that 511 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,880 in the back of my brain that keep it alive and wanting to continue with 512 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:58,159 this story. But I'm a need to have work that pays, so I 513 00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:05,079 am working on other contents. Then I was hired by NASCAR to do a 514 00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:08,880 series about nine year olds that race at a dirt track outside of Charlotte, 515 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:14,840 and that's been very different and really fun. So it's nice to have that 516 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:20,239 balance between serious, more serious material and something that is not. But surprisingly, 517 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,920 this is brand to become pretty serious. I was thinking that was to 518 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,960 have a lighter tone. Yeah. And the other thing that I've been doing 519 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,519 with two team members of mine Blair Johnson, who films with me all the 520 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:38,320 time. She's a cinematographer, an Sandra Davidson, who is our producer. 521 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:45,719 We've been going to the Ozarks filming with Bigfoot Hunters, and so that has 522 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,679 been a real gift. Actually, you get to go camping and off grid, 523 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,320 and so it allows me to really disconnect and to think about life in 524 00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:00,760 a really different way. And surprisingly like how a lot of these stories overlap 525 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:06,840 in interesting and unique ways. Is that this is a story about the pursuit. 526 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,480 It's a story about a journey, and I find myself telling a lot 527 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:14,320 of those kinds of stories. But it's very cool. I look forward to 528 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:23,920 actual footage of Bigfoot that is going to do it for this episode of mind 529 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:28,800 Over Murder. Burden of Proof is available on HBO Max or I guess we're 530 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,239 just calling it Max now. Burden of Proof is available on Max. We 531 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:35,159 do encourage you to stream it. Thank you so much for listening to this 532 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:47,519 episode of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 533 00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:53,639 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 534 00:42:53,639 --> 00:43:00,320 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dewey. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoi. Theme 535 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,480 music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral 536 00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:09,440 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 537 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:14,840 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and 538 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,400 finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 539 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,880 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.