1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:47,119 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:52,359 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by Stephen Kirkton of the Boston Globe, 11 00:00:52,399 --> 00:00:57,399 here to talk to us about his book Master Thieves, the Boston gangsters 12 00:00:57,399 --> 00:01:00,960 who pulled off the world's greatest art heist, and we are talking about the 13 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,799 Isabella Stewart Gardner at Museum Art heist. Steve, thank you for joining us 14 00:01:03,799 --> 00:01:08,560 today. We're sort of giving Bill palpitations because we got right to the sixty 15 00:01:08,599 --> 00:01:12,640 four thousand dollars question before we started recording. So let me ask the sixty 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,599 four thousand dollars question now that we're on the air. Where do you think 17 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,760 the gardener artwork is now? And more importantly, can we get it back? 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,680 Because it is, as you said, it is Boston's legacy. Boston 19 00:01:25,719 --> 00:01:27,799 deserves to have it. Everyone deserves to have it. So can we get 20 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:32,319 it? Yeah, let me go back to that word legacy, because I 21 00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:38,840 think it's a great that we have Rembrandt's only sea skip that we Boston six 22 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:45,480 one seven area has. The only Verma that's missing was at this museum. 23 00:01:45,879 --> 00:01:51,239 It made us special. We may not have treated that museum special, but 24 00:01:51,319 --> 00:01:56,519 when you look now at the fullness of why that museum was and what it 25 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,719 meant to Boston, what she brought, what Missus Godda brought, husband had 26 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:05,439 built this museum and filled it with these masterpieces, it made us special. 27 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,159 Do we get it back? I think we will. I do think that 28 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:15,400 this artwork is extant. I've thought about it as it being destroyed, and 29 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:21,000 it's not hard to look at Donati having artwork, but they don't destroy something. 30 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,960 As one of my now late contacts, in fact, he's the topic 31 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,000 of my first chapter in the book, said to me, we don't destroy 32 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,240 the cork of that wine bottle that you're drinking out of. We keep everything. 33 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,639 And it's true. When they Robert Gentile, one of the main characters 34 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,479 in the book, and then the story the saga of this theft, when 35 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,639 they raid Amafioso's house, takes the two days to empty it out because they're 36 00:02:47,719 --> 00:02:53,919 all They keep everything in. What they found when they raided his house was 37 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,919 they raided it in twenty ten, twenty sixty twelve, so that's twenty two 38 00:02:59,039 --> 00:03:05,240 years after the theft. They find in his basement no paintings and little money. 39 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,599 They find a gun, which gave them the predicate to parade his house. 40 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:15,800 They find a list of all of the thirteen pieces, written in French, 41 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,400 with what each work would get on the on the black market now. 42 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:25,800 And thankfully, because Bobby Robert Gentile could barely speak very pigeon English, he 43 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,120 was able to convince him. I did not draw that up. I was 44 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:34,360 looking for the paintings because there was then a ten million dollars reward, but 45 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:37,919 I didn't draw that up. I didn't have any access to the paintings. 46 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,639 Other people believe otherwise. They written, when they raided his house, they 47 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:45,639 saw and he had a shed in the back. In the back. Oh 48 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,240 yeah, I watched some of these raids. It's amazing. They it pulled 49 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:53,680 up a false floor in the shed that had a false floor, and there 50 00:03:53,719 --> 00:03:58,719 was a little ditch that he had dug. And the wittier investigators on this 51 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,360 case believe that gentile who was a best friend with the fellow up in Maine 52 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:10,680 who related to that he had buried the bigger pieces in those pits beneath the 53 00:04:10,719 --> 00:04:15,960 false floor of his Did they take steps there to protect them? Putting a 54 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:24,160 master in the dirt under your shed is not he said. He did have 55 00:04:24,399 --> 00:04:28,639 plastic, rubber made cylinders that he was able to put. That he'd been 56 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,360 able to put it. And I had three days of interviews with him, 57 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:34,560 a total of five hours of tapes. And I said to him, and 58 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,680 he told me about that, And I said, what did you have? 59 00:04:36,879 --> 00:04:40,199 He said, there was. I never had paintings. I never had paintings, 60 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,800 I said. One of the one of the more interesting things about him. 61 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:49,279 A Hollywood director sent an emissary to Gentile's lawyer and said, tell gent 62 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:54,839 The lawyer says, he doesn't trust the FBI, he doesn't trust the museum. 63 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:58,560 He thinks if he tells them anything, he'll just get thrown into jail 64 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,720 for a longer period of time. But he says he doesn't have anything. 65 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,079 And the director says, tell them this, tell them, I'll give you 66 00:05:04,199 --> 00:05:11,000 five million dollars. You give me whatever you have, and then and we'll 67 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,920 do a documentary, will do a movie about this. Right, Gentile said, 68 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:17,600 there ain't no paintings. There ain't no paintings. So but when I 69 00:05:17,639 --> 00:05:23,519 asked him about what did you have in those cylinders? Should be those? 70 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:27,959 There was a rubber maid rubbermaid pails that you had down there. What did 71 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:30,839 you have in there? He said, stolen motors? But they don't tell 72 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:38,560 the truth. It's one story after about everything. The only thing I thought 73 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,839 I was able on all the gents. So we talked about the old days 74 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,560 in Boston. He had lived in Boston for a time, and he told 75 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,319 me some things about what the fans had done to set them up, blah 76 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,439 blah blah. But then he said, okay, you're done. I'm done 77 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:55,480 with you now. He said, I said, listen, what can I 78 00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:59,120 bring you from Boston to have you open the door tomorrow. He said, 79 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:05,199 Regina's Pizza. There's a thin flice pizza in Boston. And I said, 80 00:06:05,199 --> 00:06:11,160 I sure do. He said, bring me two pies. So the next 81 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:15,800 two interviews days of interviews were only he only agreed to do because I brought 82 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:23,759 two pies both days, facilitated by delicious pizza from Boston. But to get 83 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:30,000 to your cork question, Kristen, I think they are available. I think, 84 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:34,120 and I do think. While many of the main characters are dead, 85 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:42,279 I do think people still whisper and gad and wink in certain of these older 86 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:47,399 neighborhoods of Boston. North of Boston, there are some communities that had very 87 00:06:47,439 --> 00:06:53,720 ethnic and very organized crime. They had their homes in. Their cousins and 88 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:58,759 their nieces and nephews are still around, their grandchildren are still around, and 89 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:02,519 they know a little bit more and they could help in the investigation. And 90 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:08,800 why should they help when they haven't helped before, is because what those paintings 91 00:07:08,879 --> 00:07:13,879 were put on the walls for. They were to inspire and educate us, 92 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,439 us who counter our a straight line. But they exult that they live in 93 00:07:18,439 --> 00:07:23,759 Boston, for the Bruins, for the Red Sox, for the medical institutions 94 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:28,519 where so many of our friends and family were. The Boston is an extraordinary 95 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,439 place, and the heaves and the have nots have that's even out a bit. 96 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,560 The have nots. They've gone on to other things, and they've moved 97 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:41,759 to other neighborhoods, but they still know some secrets, and I think that 98 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:45,720 they have to be. There has to be an outreach to them to try 99 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,839 to convince them with, you know, just their goodness of their heart. 100 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:56,639 The paintings do no good wherever they're hid. The only way we can do 101 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,519 what they were meant to do, which is is to inspire and to exalt. 102 00:08:01,959 --> 00:08:07,319 That you are in within ten feet of Rembrandt's greatest art that has to 103 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:13,480 be conveyed to the city at large to get the ball rolling. Let's see, 104 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:18,720 I've been a Red Sox fan for more than seventy five years, so 105 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:24,959 I know how it takes to get the ball rolling that this season is going 106 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,600 to be something different, and I think that to have an outreach that you 107 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:35,120 emphasize why she put these paintings, these masterpieces on the wall for us in 108 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:41,960 this beautiful museum within the Fenway area, within the Fenway district, and she, 109 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:45,799 of all things, cared, Missus Gardner, cared about the Red Sox. 110 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:50,279 You can put these loose ends together and come up with a theme that 111 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:54,000 says Boston will not be a world class city until we get our paintings back, 112 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,639 and you can help. You may know someone who knew something that was 113 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:05,159 real, but you can help get us back to the great place that we 114 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:09,279 all hope it will be for our grandchildren if the Boston Red Sox can break 115 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:16,519 the curse of the Vambino exactly and win the World Series. Even though it's 116 00:09:16,519 --> 00:09:24,960 been thirty four years, you still are optimistic that these paintings will someday be 117 00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:30,399 returned to the Isabella's. There's a way of doing it. I'm optimistic about 118 00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:35,600 that way of doing it, and that's outreach to these communities and say, 119 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,519 help us to these families, help us get it back. You have an 120 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,399 obligation to help us get this paintings back. Why do you think when the 121 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:50,240 FBI announced several years ago that they believe they knew who had stolen the paintings 122 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:54,759 and they were low level mobsters, why do you think They didn't name them 123 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,919 at the time because it did no good to name them, and I don't 124 00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:03,759 think they had the proof. I don't think they know who the second Bobby 125 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:07,240 Donatti was one, but I don't know if they know who the second guard 126 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:13,360 was. Excuse me, second the thief was who was with Donati that night. 127 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,200 All they wanted to do was to get people picking up and get one 128 00:10:18,279 --> 00:10:22,960 person. Hey, did you see what the FBI did? And get them 129 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,399 and they'll pick it up, they'll get information. And did that happen? 130 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:33,559 I don't know. I don't know, but it did cause an explosion of 131 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:39,120 interest this case. Every year The New York Times had it on thirty fourth 132 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:46,919 Anniversal thirty fourth Anniversal, No new information, just a collection of odds and 133 00:10:46,039 --> 00:10:52,600 ends on the front page. Why A one, I think it's because the 134 00:10:52,600 --> 00:11:01,399 theft was pretty artful scheming. But second is the masterpieces that are in third 135 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:07,279 that not one piece has turned up, and also not one person has been 136 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,759 put in jail. So it's such a case for the ages, and I 137 00:11:11,799 --> 00:11:16,879 think it'll be written about until we get them back because of the theft is 138 00:11:16,919 --> 00:11:22,320 so important in the mystery is so steep, and I was familiar with the 139 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,320 theft already, But what really led me to your book was the Netflix documentary 140 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,600 This Is a Robbery. Can you tell us a little bit about your involvement 141 00:11:33,639 --> 00:11:37,799 with the documentary? Thank you, chuse. The two men who were for 142 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,320 the main producers of it, Nick and Colin Barnacle, are sons of Michael 143 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,679 Mike Barnacle and and Fidukan and both pretty important people around Boston. Mike had 144 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,279 been a columnist for the Boston Globe, now has writes Call Right. Charlson 145 00:11:54,679 --> 00:12:01,279 appears on Martin Joe on MSNBC. But Mike had reached out to me in 146 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,759 the late let me see, probably on two thousand and six, seventeen eighteen 147 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:09,039 after my book came out, and said, my boys, they both did 148 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:16,000 documentaries but on sports figures, and would you help the boys? And I 149 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,600 said sure, I'll give anything I can or whatever you need. Mike, 150 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,960 Mike does have four second row, second and third row tickets park seats right 151 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:30,720 next to the Red Sharks dug out speaking of Boston Legacy. So I've said, 152 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,240 whatever we worked out for payment to be helping your sons, I do 153 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:43,279 want those tickets for a Yankee game. Three grand children there are some things 154 00:12:43,279 --> 00:12:48,919 that are worth more than that money can buy. That was a terrific night, 155 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:54,720 a terrific they gave. I have worked valiantly on this thing, but 156 00:12:54,799 --> 00:13:01,200 I still think that there is a way of convincing people who know something to 157 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:07,840 step forward, to step up. In their four part series during the COVID 158 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,919 I think it was twenty twenty one, it was on That was the best 159 00:13:11,919 --> 00:13:16,480 documentary that was done that year for Netflix. Everybody watched it. Yeah, 160 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,720 it was fantastical. They came into my they came here to my home, 161 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:26,919 elegant home in Plymouth, and spent a whole day interviewing me and never seen 162 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,639 so much equipment down in my room where I wrote my book, and they 163 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:35,720 we had a terrific time, and they knew a lot, and they had 164 00:13:35,759 --> 00:13:39,000 just kept up that one thing I had asked them, don't try to solve 165 00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:43,799 this case. Just present the mystery, the importance of the case, and 166 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:50,399 the characters that populate this case. And they did. Still I think a 167 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,840 favorite. Yeah, it's wonderful and it got into some areas that I had 168 00:13:54,879 --> 00:14:00,559 not even considered. They did have a little a tangent in their about the 169 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:05,039 question of whether or not the paintings might have been the sell to someone in 170 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:09,120 exchange for arms for the IRA. Yeah, that kind of blew my mind. 171 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,639 I was like, oh, my gosh, we never considered that. 172 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,679 Christin the Bill has not taken you around some of our neighborhoods. Because back 173 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,879 in the day this chapter on this Whitey Bulger was a notorious criminal organized had 174 00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:28,399 his own gang in South Boston. And the anybody, when you do a 175 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,600 talk in Boston about this, I said, isn't this Whitey? Didn't Whitey 176 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:37,039 do this? And the reason why is that Whitey Bulger had a sense of 177 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:43,919 sovereignty criminal gangs. I learned this that the if you headed a criminal gang 178 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,879 in a theft or a score as I call him, was pulled off in 179 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:56,679 your neighborhood, you as the crime leader in that neighborhood, you had the 180 00:14:56,879 --> 00:15:01,120 sovereign right to either say yes or no on that theft. And if you 181 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:07,720 said yes, you expected to get a cut fifteen percent. And so Whitey 182 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,200 there had been a bank robbery in Boston, excuse me, Noshova of Boston 183 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:18,480 and the criminal white He hunted down the criminal because Whitey hadn't sanctioned that theft. 184 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,840 Whitey killed the robber, the head of that game that did that theft. 185 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:28,320 So as I thought, Jesus Whitey had to know. Whitey was on 186 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,840 the street, Whitey Bulger, He's so well was so well known, not 187 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,279 late. There's a terrific movie in twenty fifteen called Black Mass. Yeah, 188 00:15:37,759 --> 00:15:43,080 that was written by two of my Globe colleagues, Dick Lair and Jerry O'Neill, 189 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:50,120 and they followed Whitey's trail and all of his criminal exploits. Whitey was 190 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,600 on the street. White He disappeared fro nineteen ninety five to twenty thirteen. 191 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,039 He was caught in twenty thirteen, convicted of multiple murders and sent to jail. 192 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,320 He wasn't in the prison for more than a month when he was assassinated, 193 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,720 because it turned out Whitey was an FBI informant. No one that really 194 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:14,679 knew about it, and was ever really proven until Black Mass was published. 195 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,399 Whitey was on the street from nineteen ninety to ninety five. He was for 196 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,879 five years. He was in Boston protected because of this FBI deal he had. 197 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:27,480 Wouldn't it make sense that Whitey would have known about the theft, wouldn't 198 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:33,080 have sanctioned it or known who did pull it off. The Feds. The 199 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,480 FBI reached out to his handler within the FBI, and they said to him, 200 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:41,559 call your friend Whitey and try to figure out where who did this and 201 00:16:41,639 --> 00:16:47,120 where this artwork is. This is in nineteen ninety one, a year after 202 00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:51,279 the theft, and the handle reached out to Whitey and was white He said 203 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,600 to him, don't you think I've already looked to find out who took this. 204 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,679 I didn't get my cut. I want my fifteen percent of whatever the 205 00:16:59,759 --> 00:17:03,000 art work is valued. And he said, I tried. One of my 206 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:07,880 intermediate, one of my informants, told me the artwork is in Saudi Arabia, 207 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:11,440 and he said. The next guy came and said, no, somebody 208 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:15,279 named Sullivan in South Boston knows something. And he says, he said to 209 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:21,400 the FBI agent, he said, Sullivan in South Boston. There's more Sullivan's 210 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,119 in South Boston than there are grains of sand in Saudi Arabia. He's somebody 211 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,119 who knows something. Why from everything I know, Whitey couldn't figure this one 212 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,799 out. And so the case, like so much else in this saga, 213 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:40,319 remains a mystery. You're listening to Mind over Murder we'll be right back after 214 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:55,680 this word from our sponsors, We're back here at mindover Murder. Before we 215 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,759 get back to the podcast, just wanted to remind you that we have a 216 00:17:57,839 --> 00:18:03,839 go fund me going on right now. This campaign is designed to help us 217 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:10,319 raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway 218 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,200 murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could support us in any way 219 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,519 that you can. Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford is 220 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,599 very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show 221 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:30,000 notes and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for your support. 222 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:34,400 Now back to Mind over Murder. I can't help but think if the 223 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,880 three of us made it our life's work to figure this out, we'd also 224 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:44,839 be risking our lives. I've been there, doctor, the lawyers, present 225 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,319 yourself. Just from the work that any reporter for the Boston Globe with the 226 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:53,880 Boston Herald who has covered the city and done it the right way for the 227 00:18:53,880 --> 00:19:00,920 way the newsrooms mandate of them, we'll get some feedback. There was one 228 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:06,960 fellow I lived in a near the water near the Atlantic Ocean. Ten minute 229 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,440 walk and the next beach up who has had some Sedia characters in it, 230 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,759 and I went. I called the woman one time and I said, hey, 231 00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:17,079 your husband won't talk to me. Why won't he talk to me? 232 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:22,599 And she's she saw the five oweight area code on my I was using my 233 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,640 phone. She said, where are you calling from? Five oweight And I 234 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,119 said, I'm calling from minimum it's the name of our beach. And she 235 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,359 said, oh, how are you and I get married in the next beach 236 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,559 up in white Horse Beach? So I said, She said, if you 237 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:38,920 care for miniment, you're a good enough guy. How do we get on 238 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:48,440 the phone and talk to this guy? Happy wife, happy life? How 239 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,039 are we going to He didn't have much, but he at least he took 240 00:19:52,079 --> 00:20:00,359 my phot Do you still actively think about this case? And I actively thing. 241 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,799 I have a couple of other stories that I'm working on. During the 242 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:07,079 pandemic, I worked on three other stories, one of them I'm still working 243 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:12,559 on, but none of them came out. Just really me, I'm a 244 00:20:12,599 --> 00:20:18,400 good judge of which stories will pan out. But is this a publishing issue 245 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,119 or a writing issue? Which I did? It didn't. I thought there 246 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:27,480 was a eureka at the end of it probable cause, and if I get 247 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:33,079 on it, I'll be able to get something about this one was this gentleman 248 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,839 felt he had recovered or bought off of eBay, of all things, a 249 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:42,920 Rembrant, and he saw my passion and my endurance on these stories. So 250 00:20:44,079 --> 00:20:45,920 he called me up and he said, would you help me prove that I've 251 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:52,559 got a Rembrandt? And I there was good evidence, but what I wrote, 252 00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:56,319 what I felt is it's just halfway there. So he wasn't willing to 253 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,359 go on the record, so I said, okay, fine, So trying 254 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,440 to figure out how you buy a Rembrandt on eBay. Don't forget there are 255 00:21:03,559 --> 00:21:10,799 so many, so many copies that one of the ways I got dragged into 256 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,920 this. The Herald had a reporter who was on the story in ninety seven. 257 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,480 Yes, and he was shown what he was Oh, I remember this. 258 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:25,039 This was a fascinating story, and he went a warehouse in New York 259 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,160 went to he said, forty five minutes away from Boston. We didn't I 260 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,200 didn't know until I got on. This is how I got on the story. 261 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:33,480 The one of the end of the skates me. He said, see 262 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:37,400 help us out here. The Herald's way ahead of us on this. I 263 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,640 did not think, knowing the reporter and knowing whom he was speaking with, 264 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,119 that there was credibility here. But I said, listen, the Herald's got 265 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,880 a fun page story. We've seen it. Yeah, I remember that, 266 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:55,599 we've seen story. So you got to jump in on that. And what 267 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,519 it turned out was the reporter himself, he's the Herald's never ever acted it. 268 00:22:00,599 --> 00:22:04,039 But I did interview the reporter from my book in a whole chapter on 269 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,880 that. This case of this, this saga, is that when the guy 270 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:12,119 whom he was dealing with, the na do Well, let me say, 271 00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:19,880 took the painting out of its cylindrical where it was being contained container and he 272 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:25,319 held it over his head. What the reporter said is that the painting the 273 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:33,359 canvas unfurled, and when he later spoke to the museum, convinced him that 274 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:40,160 Rembrandt was too lacquered, too schillact. I could not you couldn't fold it, 275 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,440 you couldn't bend it. It would be too stiff. From all in 276 00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:49,000 one, I don't think I've ever used it, but I have the nadowell 277 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:53,160 who showed it to him. What he wanted to do was to get the 278 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,680 Herald to buy into that he had the Rembrandt, and as a result he 279 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,799 would let another name had to well out of jail, and here we go 280 00:23:02,839 --> 00:23:07,079 again with here you go get out of jail free card. And the Feds 281 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,119 never would let the second one out of jail. They said, no, 282 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,279 you got to give us up. If you got something, show it to 283 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,240 us. But I had that first, that first guy's telephone book, and 284 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:22,880 in the telephone book of the small telephone book that he put in his pocket, 285 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:30,519 in it was the name of a Manhattan of company that made up paintings. 286 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,960 And I'm thinking he had approached them, and if I called them, 287 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,160 they said they didn't have anything. They hadn't done this Rembrandt. But I'm 288 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,079 thinking he went to someone else and had had the brant. Must have been 289 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:48,519 a good job, because the Herald reporter said, I saw it for a 290 00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:52,400 moment and it looked like the real thing. That's why he reported, we've 291 00:23:52,440 --> 00:24:00,599 seen another dead end. But still mastery. You couldn't make the stuff up. 292 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,440 As someone said to my book, here a cast of characters that would 293 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:11,359 make Martin Scorsese swooned in admiration. That's true. That's true. With the 294 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:17,799 success of Master Thieves, are you tempted to write another book? I know 295 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,200 what it takes to write a book when it's an anatomy, and that's not 296 00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,119 the kind of book I want to write again. I want to write a 297 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:33,279 book that and I don't want to write a book that leaves the reader in 298 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,799 anticipation hanging. I want to write. I want that last chapter written, 299 00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:42,160 and I don't have that yet. I don't have it for Master Thieves, 300 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:47,240 and I don't have it for this other case. I still working the not 301 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:52,039 the not the faull re brand, but another case that I'm working. Steve, 302 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:56,559 if someone has information or thinks they have information about the stolen paintings from 303 00:24:56,599 --> 00:24:59,799 the gardener, who should they be contacting? I doubt you want them reaching 304 00:24:59,839 --> 00:25:04,720 out to you, Stephen Kirchen at gmail dot com. I respond, But 305 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,920 the FBI Boston office, the gentleman named Jeff with a G. Jeff Kelly, 306 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:17,759 who will take every call in Anthony Maury, who's the security director at 307 00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:22,319 the museum. I asked, I think it's dot com. Excuse me, 308 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,160 dot com? You'll you'll, they will take your call, they will engage 309 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:33,400 you, but please, they will all of us have gone down rabbit holes. 310 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,079 Here. We'll listen to you, but please, if you're calling, 311 00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:44,960 have something that leads somewhere, and don't let us have another worthless pursuit. 312 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:52,200 The deal the FBI made with Bulger was that he was snitch on the Italian 313 00:25:52,319 --> 00:26:00,759 mar but he and they would let him off on his criminality. They would 314 00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:03,599 do. And let me tell you, he didn't give up anything. I 315 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,519 know who gave the Feds the information to let them break into the end Julos 316 00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:12,680 and they were the crime gang, Imparson, And it wasn't Bulger, it 317 00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:17,480 was this other guy. But she said, I won't talk to any Irish 318 00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:26,839 so wow, Polish of a Polish prosecutor who had prosecuted Bulger. And he 319 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,599 called her and he said to her. I don't know what he said to 320 00:26:30,599 --> 00:26:34,319 her. She doesn't return my phone calls. They never refer turned my phone 321 00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:40,119 calls. Just the sister. How the game is played? And do you 322 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,640 think David Turner's still out there right? Do you think he's been released? 323 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:53,759 David certainly knows something, probably knows where those two paintings were sold, let's 324 00:26:53,799 --> 00:27:00,519 say two or three. The way I figure the one hinge led to a 325 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:06,880 door that led to an alley that led to the Eureka, is that Donadi 326 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:15,119 in Guarente, even though a generation apart an age they were pals in effett 327 00:27:15,279 --> 00:27:22,400 like this, they belonged to different games. Garente belonged to the Frank Slemmi 328 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:29,480 gang and Donati belonged to the Ferrara game. But since they were from the 329 00:27:29,519 --> 00:27:34,920 same neighborhood, they were bom they could talk. When Donati stole the paintings 330 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,920 and Ferrara didn't want him use to get out of jail. I think Donadi 331 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:47,640 went to Guarante because he knew Guaranty was o g was an old and could 332 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:52,680 help him, and so he went to Guarente and maybe he sold, gave 333 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:59,559 whatever two of the big paintings to Garenty on the promise Garenti would sell them 334 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:06,000 and money back to Donadi. Donadi was known to have gone during the year 335 00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:10,000 and a half that he was alive after the theft. He was known to 336 00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:15,240 have gone to Florida and spent a lot of money at the race track I 337 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,799 sent and I think the FEDS know all about this, but they won't give 338 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:23,160 it up. Spent money at the racetrack when he came back, he said 339 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,000 to Garanty, I want more money. I want more money, and Garante 340 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,880 had him killed or killed him himself. Turner was brought up by Guarante. 341 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,359 Turner even though not Italian, he came from Becomp and he's a kid. 342 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:44,119 He's in his forties when he was hanging out with he was a teenager when 343 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,880 he was hanging out with Guarante. That Garente took him under his wing. 344 00:28:48,559 --> 00:28:53,920 Turner turned out to be a very capable killer, drug dealer, whatever. 345 00:28:55,599 --> 00:29:02,039 And I think he learned from Garente what Garente did with the artwork. That's 346 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:07,119 what I think garrent When Garenty finally gave information to the Feds, he gave 347 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:15,759 them what he heard or will learn about what Garente did with that Karenti killed 348 00:29:15,799 --> 00:29:19,440 Donati and what he did with the artwork that he got from Donati. And 349 00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:25,839 I've reached out to now garent Turner has been released. His sentence was cut 350 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,319 by seven years. Yeah, I saw that in the documentary. That was 351 00:29:30,599 --> 00:29:37,920 after the book came out of focusing more on him. I've approached Turner sense 352 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,720 to sit for an interview, but it took Crafty of a reporter, and 353 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:48,920 I don't think they used that word. Where is Turner? Is he in 354 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:56,039 Massachusetts? He's probably home and and Brantry and especially back to his own old 355 00:29:56,039 --> 00:30:02,079 neighborhood. But I think he's The Feds know about a couple of murders, 356 00:30:02,119 --> 00:30:06,799 so they've got him on a short leash. Yeah, he salutes, and 357 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,680 it doesn't give interviews to reporters. The Feds want to get it the only 358 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,839 way they're going to get it, which is somebody picks up the phone. 359 00:30:14,319 --> 00:30:18,440 I think Turner has told them everything that he knows, but he doesn't know 360 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,039 where Guarente did with the artwork. And of course one of the things we 361 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:26,200 all have to remember is the artwork could have been dispersed. It could have 362 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:30,240 easily gone to a different place. I hear you, Billy, and I 363 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:36,200 agree it could have been. Oh we didn't get back to Bulger Bulger head 364 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:42,119 and then Bulger was It's crazy social passion. He had an enduring alliance with 365 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:49,079 the IRA, So that's why we would have done anything. These jerks, 366 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,200 they have this belief, oh, Ira, get rid of, get rid 367 00:30:53,200 --> 00:31:00,400 of the nineteenth county. There ridiculous killing people. I have yet to come 368 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,359 up to Boston to see the Gardener Museum, but to come up. I 369 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:10,039 would love to Bill. It's beautiful. When I met it wasn't a guy 370 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:14,759 that we just walked through. But no, it was very and I didn't 371 00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:18,880 mention it on the air. Remember you and I were walking up the stairs 372 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:25,440 to the second floor and ANTHONYA. Moorey came right stairs. Anthony, I 373 00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:29,160 was my book had just come out. Anthony was not pleased with the book. 374 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,519 Yeah, he gave you the once over and kept right on going. 375 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,960 I don't know if I told you this. During that same time I saw 376 00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:41,920 you, I went and listened to him speak. He was doing one of 377 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:48,440 his stop sets at a library on the South Shore. It wasn't Plymouth. 378 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,480 He came to Plymouth, I think with Jeff, with Jeff Kelly, but 379 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:56,920 I don't think they said much. This was him by himself, but his 380 00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:01,240 wife or girlfriend was with him. Very attractive Asian American moment, and they 381 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:07,319 were selling copies of his books, and he spoke. I chatted with him 382 00:32:07,319 --> 00:32:10,119 afterwards and I name dropped you, but it didn't see get me much. 383 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:16,640 Yeah, he said if books should have been written in two thousand and one, 384 00:32:16,759 --> 00:32:22,279 nineteen ninety five, should not have been twenty fifteen, but I'm really 385 00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:28,279 glad that it came out because it really does get I got a real good 386 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:36,119 what do they call that offer with option from Sony TV, And they had 387 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:45,599 hired a director of Adila and we were all going. But my great friend's 388 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:52,599 movie Black Mass didn't do well, even though it had Johnny Depp. Yeah, 389 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,079 and it's very was so scary in that movie. Yeah, it's creepy 390 00:32:57,119 --> 00:33:06,160 as hell. Ally would wash ardor for Boston Crime Books in twenty fifteen when 391 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,319 mine was Sony pulled away. They gave me two big contracts, a lot 392 00:33:10,359 --> 00:33:15,319 of money, had some fun, and I kept saying him, fly meet 393 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:20,119 who's who won't play? Who won't play? Fly me to Los Angeles, 394 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:25,359 have them take a meeting with me. We'll get to him. Yeah exactly, 395 00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:32,759 Yeah I fish. He said, listen, we're right now with DiCaprio 396 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,680 in DiCaprio's Best Friend is Oh Cide, the House rules. What's the name 397 00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:45,559 Tobby maguire, Toby McGuire. They played big Poker, so agent I said, 398 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:52,559 get me to that game in my elements, Oh my gosh. And 399 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,480 they would have loved you because you're the real deal. Right, but he 400 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:04,480 said, Steve, they make four four digit bets. Wow. Please tell 401 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:09,679 Sony to back the bets. Yeah. Hey, trip, terrific time. 402 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:15,719 Let me know if you hear anything. Bill, please come up. Hey, 403 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,280 I have every intention of coming up at some point or another. I 404 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,199 would love to go to the museum summer waits come on all right? Absolutely, 405 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,760 Thank you, take care of Thanks Steve. The book is Master Thieves, 406 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,079 the Boston Gangster who pulled off the World's Greatest art heist, and the 407 00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:37,639 documentary is This Is a Robbery available on Netflix. Stephen, thank you so 408 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,719 much for joining us today. This was a real pleasure. Bill, Kristen, 409 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,199 thank you very much for having me. Great to chat. That is 410 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:47,599 going to do it for this episode of mind Ever Murder. Thank you so 411 00:34:47,679 --> 00:35:01,639 much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a 412 00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:08,239 production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas 413 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:14,440 and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music 414 00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:19,679 is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space 415 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,400 Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You 416 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:29,159 can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook, and finally, 417 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,239 you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. 418 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,800 Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.