1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,640 in crime, Bill Thomas. All righty everyone, welcome to our second live 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,359 podcast event with a mind over Murder podcast. Did anyone come to our first 11 00:00:49,439 --> 00:00:54,399 event back in April? Excellence? And I'm going to ask my other question, 12 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,960 how many of you have listened to or are a fan of the mind 13 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:03,399 over Murder podcast. Excellent, wonderful. I'm thrilled to have you all join 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,280 us today at the Yorktown Library here in Yorktown, Virginia. Tonight, I 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,560 have the privilege of welcoming back, Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly, the hosts 16 00:01:11,599 --> 00:01:15,599 of the mind Over Murder podcast. They have also brought along a special guest 17 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:23,439 tonight. This is Blaine Pardo and it sounds like you know him, but 18 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:26,519 in case you don't, he is the co author of a special kind of 19 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:32,439 evil, the Colonial Parkway serial killings. As a reminder, we will have 20 00:01:32,519 --> 00:01:34,680 a question answer session in the second half of this program, so please hold 21 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,200 your questions until then, and without further ado, I'm going to go ahead 22 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,719 and hand this event off to our intrepid podcast hosts, Bill and Kristen. 23 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,280 All right, thank you all very much. Oh, thank you, thank 24 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:51,079 you. Let's go ahead and kick this off with our standard greeting. Welcome 25 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,799 to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilling and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're 26 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:59,040 joined here by Blaine Pardo, author of a Special kind of Evil, and 27 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:02,120 this is our second live event at the Yorktown Library. Thank you everybody for 28 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:09,479 joining us. Give yourselves a round of applause. All right, let's go 29 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:15,520 ahead and kick things off here. So you are listening to mind over Murder. 30 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:17,960 For anybody who is not familiar, and it seems like most of you 31 00:02:19,039 --> 00:02:21,599 are, but we'll go ahead and do our spield just in case. We 32 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,080 launched in January of twenty twenty. We are in our fourth season or is 33 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,800 it our fifth? Bill? Did we decide technically it's our fifth. Technically 34 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,919 it is our fifth? Lie? Whut you cross over the rubicon of the 35 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:36,919 end of the fourth year? Gotcha? This is all arbitrary Bill Thomas stuff. 36 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:38,319 By the way, he has his own set of time and his own 37 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:40,879 set of rules. I just do what he tells me. A smile, 38 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:46,360 a nod. We have more than one point five million downloads to date, 39 00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:49,599 and we thank you all very much for being part of that one point five 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,879 million. We really appreciate you. We are dedicated to exploring and discussing all 41 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:55,639 facets of the colonial parking murders, and our goal, of course, is 42 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,439 to be advocates for the victims and their families, of which Bill Times is 43 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:04,400 one. We are looking to seek answers and justice. Thank it everybody who 44 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,039 showed up tonight. We really appreciate you. Hey, you know, we 45 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:13,080 forgot to mention what did we forget to mention Bill Thomas that it's your birthday. 46 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:22,240 I'm like, oh, she's twenty nine years old. I know that's 47 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,639 hard to believe. Incredibly youthful and dynamic. And thank you for choosing to 48 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,800 spend your birthday doing a live podcast about the Colonial Parkway. You know what 49 00:03:31,879 --> 00:03:37,080 a place I'd rather be. Thank you, you could do so much better. 50 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:43,000 He's right as usual. We are really thrilled, Blaine, that you 51 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,560 can join us here tonight, and so we want to really quick give Blaine 52 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,479 his due here by talking about his storied, an amazing career. Blaine is 53 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,919 in New York Times bestselling author of sci fi, paranormal, and political thriller 54 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:00,479 novels, including the Battle Tech series. He also writes in through crime, 55 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,159 military history, and business management. He runs a true crime podcast of his 56 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,599 own, Tantamount, with his daughter Victoria Hester, who is also his co 57 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:11,919 author. And A Special Kind of People is the book of record on the 58 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,719 Colonial Parkway murders case. And Blaine, thank you so very much, not 59 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:17,879 only for being here, but also for lending a voice to these cases. 60 00:04:17,879 --> 00:04:24,000 We really appreciate it. Anything I can do to keep public attention on these 61 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,759 cases is important to me. So it's just you have to do that with 62 00:04:29,879 --> 00:04:33,560 this. It's just crucial. Interesting as a science not an art guys. 63 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:39,040 The thing is, I'm a writer, so I'm not I chose that field 64 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:45,639 specifically, did not deal with people. You're doing pretty well so far, 65 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,800 very lifelike, Blaine. We wanted to bring you on as our special guest 66 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,360 so that we could talk a little bit about not only the case, but 67 00:04:54,399 --> 00:04:59,279 also the event of January eighth, because that really feels like it is a 68 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:01,839 hallmark all of our lives for anybody who was involved with the case. And 69 00:05:01,879 --> 00:05:05,160 then we wanted to spend a little bit of time talking about some other cases 70 00:05:05,519 --> 00:05:09,920 that we think Alan weid Wilmer Senior might possibly be involved with, and we'd 71 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:14,079 love your expert opinion on these things. I'll offer what I can. Bill. 72 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,240 Let's go ahead and kick it off with you talking about the Colonial Parkway 73 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:19,959 murders in a nutshell. I know you like to monolog but less trying to 74 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,680 keep it brief here. Yeah, the biggest challenge with the Colonial Parkway murders 75 00:05:24,759 --> 00:05:28,680 is going down the various rabbit holes, and there's so many in this case. 76 00:05:29,199 --> 00:05:31,959 Let's see if we can do the brief overview with the Colonial Parkway murders. 77 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:36,480 What you have are four double homicides of couples, a lesbian couple, 78 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:43,040 my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebecca Dowski, followed by three straight couples, 79 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:48,680 David Nobling Robin Edwards in nineteen eighty seven, so Kathy and Becky start 80 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,240 in nineteen eighty six. Almost a year later, David and Robert are killed 81 00:05:53,439 --> 00:06:01,720 at the Ragged Island Wildlife Management sometimes called Preserve Swamp. Yeah, Marshy Area, 82 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,920 Beautiful Marsh Area. So that's almost a year later, in nineteen eighty 83 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:11,839 seven. The third case is technically still a missing person's case. That's Richard 84 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:17,000 Keith call he goes by his middle name usually and Cassandra Hayley. They were 85 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:21,680 at a party at Christopher Newport University on April tenth, nineteen eighty eight. 86 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,000 The car is then found on the Colonial Parkway, and we'll get into more 87 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,319 details we discussed we actually don't think that Keith and Sandy ever made it to 88 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,759 the Parkway, and there may be an element of staging here, and you'll 89 00:06:35,759 --> 00:06:41,439 hear a lot about staging of cars and crime scenes. And then finally, 90 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,079 the fourth in what may be a series is Daniel Lower and Anna Maria Phelps, 91 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:54,079 who disappeared while traveling along Interstate sixty four. The car is found abandoned 92 00:06:54,279 --> 00:07:00,920 at a rest stop on Interstate sixty four in the wrong direction from the direction 93 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,000 they were traveling towards Virginia Beach, and their bodies were found about six weeks 94 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,560 later at a hunt club off Interstate sixty four. And these are all places 95 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,800 that we've all been together in separately, and so we have a lot more 96 00:07:12,879 --> 00:07:15,079 that we'd like to add. A couple of things. Just in general, 97 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:21,519 you've got work couples, but even the expression couples is a little bit misleading 98 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:27,839 in that the only serious couple, interestingly is the lesbian couple My sister Kathy 99 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,240 and her girlfriend Rebecca. David Nobling and Robin Edwards had met that day, 100 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,439 so not a serious couple, just friends. Keith and Sandy are on a 101 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,120 first date. Again, not a serious couple. And then finally Anna, 102 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,519 Maria and Daniel. Anna is dating Daniel's brother Clint, and they're supposed to 103 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,920 be perhaps engaged. It's a little bit loose. They're not a couple either. 104 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:56,800 On some level. We're talking about people that are somewhere between a first 105 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,639 date and traveling companions, So they're not couple per se it doesn't preclude the 106 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,680 idea that they couldn't be involved in romantic or sexual behavior, or that there 107 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:13,680 was some element of romance going on. They're not necessarily serious couples. And 108 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,839 then there's a through line of a sense and I'd like both Blaine and Kristen 109 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,720 to talk about this, a sense that it feels like someone has stopped these 110 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:28,839 people, or they're already stopped, and they may be presenting as law enforcement 111 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:35,279 or something along those lines. I can't say for sure, but it feels 112 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,200 like someone rolls up on these people and presents as an authority figure. And 113 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:43,080 that's how the FBI put it to us. And I'm talking about my family 114 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,200 now. Four days after Kathy and Becky were murdered, they said to us, 115 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,639 and remember the other murders haven't even taken place yet. He said to 116 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:56,200 us, we believe that your sister and Missdowski were approached by an authority figure. 117 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,279 And I stopped them. We were at my parents' dining room up in 118 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,879 Lowell, Massachusetts, and I said, I'm sorry, we're confused. What's 119 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:09,399 an authority figure? And interestingly, the two FBI agents they've hemmed and hawed. 120 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:13,080 And now that I've gotten to know FBI agents pretty well over the years. 121 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:18,519 They usually don't hem in haw They're pretty polished, pretty arrogant. They 122 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:24,240 think they have all the answers, but they don't usually lack for something to 123 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,720 say. And they stammered, and I remember thinking, this is odd. 124 00:09:28,879 --> 00:09:31,559 I don't think this is that challenging a question. And then they finally said, 125 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,399 we say authority figure, we mean somebody in law enforcement. But of 126 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,600 course why not say that. But that's a whole nother discussion. So there's 127 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:46,919 this through line of couples, cars, lovers, lanes, isolated rural locations, 128 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,120 other things. You want to add. The other thing I think it's 129 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:56,120 important is whoever conducted these murders did stage the vehicles. With the exception of 130 00:09:56,159 --> 00:10:00,879 your sisters, the vehicles are left with the keys visible in some way. 131 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,480 They are either the door is open so that the interior lights on, or 132 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:11,039 you end up in a situation where music's playing out of a vehicle or things 133 00:10:11,039 --> 00:10:16,240 along those lines, or a roach clip is left on a door to drag 134 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,840 your attention to the vehicle, and the vehicle's keys are available, and so 135 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:28,240 the killer in the last three sets of murders or killers, which we don't 136 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,840 know for sure, literally set those vehicles up so somebody else would take them 137 00:10:33,159 --> 00:10:39,519 and potentially be charged with those crimes or at least mislead law enforcement. And 138 00:10:39,759 --> 00:10:41,679 when we were doing the book, that was one of the big things when 139 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,240 I sat down with the profiler for Virginia State Police and I said, look, 140 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,720 these cars all look staged, and he goes, that's the fingerprint. 141 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,919 That's unique because you even if these cases, let's say we wanted to make 142 00:10:54,159 --> 00:11:00,320 an argument that these cases weren't connected, that's a fingerprint that killer is doing 143 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,159 that each time. So that to me is something that ties these together. 144 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:09,039 The movement of the vehicles probably post mortem too, I think, is something 145 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,799 that's very striking. It feels like terrible things have happened, and then we 146 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:18,519 think afterward, the killer or killers are moving vehicles around, and as Blaine 147 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:22,240 says, staging them. I think you're the first person that I ever heard 148 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:26,639 say these vehicles are staged for theft. In other words, hoping that some 149 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,759 mope kid's going to come along and realize that the keys are in the car 150 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,159 and take the car, which would further add and I know you've made this 151 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:41,080 point before adding to the confusion of what they've already found. Now at least 152 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,159 potentially you could have a car in a completely different place. Yeah, at 153 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,720 Ragged Island. David Nobling never pulled his truck in straight anywhere. He was 154 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,759 a backer upper, and if you live in Virginia you know what that means. 155 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:56,919 He backed up into a parking space, but his truck was pulled straight 156 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,240 in and the vehicle he had wired the radio directly to the battery so you 157 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,799 could turn it on without turning the keys to the accessories to play the radio. 158 00:12:07,639 --> 00:12:11,440 It was found with the keys turned to accessories and the radio was playing. 159 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:16,480 So whoever the killer was moved the vehicle and turned on the radio, 160 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,559 not knowing that you didn't need to have the keys turned to do that. 161 00:12:20,279 --> 00:12:24,519 So they were setting it up to draw attention to it. That's the only 162 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,559 reason you would do that. If he was out with Robin playing music, 163 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:33,039 watching the James River, he wouldn't have had to turn the keys at all. 164 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,120 That vehicle was moved. Definitely. In the case of Keith and Cassandra 165 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,519 you're dealing with, they were not going to be driving anywhere near the Colonial 166 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,159 Parkway. Keith might have on the way home after he dropped off Cassandra, 167 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:52,360 but he wasn't going to be driving with her near the Colonial Parkway. He 168 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,399 was taking her home, and he made that clear at the party to several 169 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,039 people, I'm taking her home. Her home was to to fifteen minutes away. 170 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:05,759 So something happened either at the party as they left or in the intervention 171 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:13,799 between that and Cassandra's house that resulted in their killer engaging with them. On 172 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,639 the other the last murders were dealing with Phelips Lower. They were headed back 173 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:26,320 towards Virginia Beach. Whoever killed them drove their car from the one rest area 174 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,399 where they were last seen alive, which is the New Big Rest Area on 175 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,879 sixty four, drove off to the New Ken exit, drove back around and 176 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,039 back onto sixty four, and left the car headed the other direction. So 177 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,600 the vehicle was move and presented in that way, and they left a roach 178 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:48,399 clip hanging on the window with a window half down with the keys clearly in 179 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,080 view, and they put it on. They didn't park it in the parking 180 00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:56,840 lot at the rest area. They parked it on the ramp to head west. 181 00:13:58,159 --> 00:14:01,480 It's literally on the road to the ramp, so whoever was doing this 182 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:05,519 was trying to draw a tension to those vehicles in those three situations. No, 183 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:11,080 your sister's situation's very different, and it could be that the killer learned 184 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:16,000 some things going through the situation they did with your sister. In that case, 185 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:18,879 they tried to burn the car and then when that failed, tried to 186 00:14:18,879 --> 00:14:22,799 push the car into the York River. And it was just a mess the 187 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:26,399 way that was handled, And it could be that they tried to simplify or 188 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:31,399 that they refined their techniques. I think those are all really good points. 189 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,399 Other things that you wanted to add now, I think you guys have covered 190 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:37,519 it, Admirablaine, But Blaine, I do want to ask before we get 191 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:43,879 into the events of January eighth, and the press conference changed us all. 192 00:14:43,279 --> 00:14:46,720 When you set out to write A Special Kind of Evil and you started looking 193 00:14:46,879 --> 00:14:52,279 into the case, did you have an original theory that was in your mind 194 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,840 before you started or were you just going through the process organically, looking at 195 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,000 the evidence and then coming to your own conclusions. We started with the Virginia 196 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,200 State Police profiler Larry mccannon, who had been on the case early on, 197 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,320 and we had dinner with him. We went in going tell us what you 198 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,759 know and tell us all about what we need to know with this case. 199 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:18,480 And then we interviewed each of the families to walk through that progression, to 200 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:24,120 learn what happened that night from their perspectives. We did a ton of research 201 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:30,960 in terms of newspapers, etc. Interviewing former law enforced, former FBI agents 202 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,120 who are no longer with us, things along those lines, and that was 203 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,279 a big help. It really helped us wrap our heads around this case. 204 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,320 But we didn't come in with any preconceived notions. As a matter of fact, 205 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,679 we challenged ourselves throughout the process. My daughter and I going, are 206 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,279 these cases really connected? Do you think is it? And her and I 207 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,399 still argue over whether it was one killer or too, but she's won me 208 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,320 over on that that it may have been too. It's been a journey to 209 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:02,240 simply say, look, I'm a sponge, give me everything. And what 210 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,679 we wanted to do is let the reader form their own opinion, so we 211 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:08,960 don't come out and go we think it's this guy. It's hey, here's 212 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,399 all the theories. You come up and settle on the one that you're most 213 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,759 comfortable with. And how many of Pella in the audience have read Blaine's book, 214 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,159 Okay, that's amazing. We do recommend it. They have it here 215 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,720 at the library, and of course we strongly recommend that you buy it because 216 00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:30,960 it really is the definitive work at this point on the Colonial Parkway murders. 217 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,000 And we're hoping that Blane and Victoria will look at writing new chapters. As 218 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,159 were they calling it an appendix or an addendum to the book, but it 219 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,039 really had The events on January sixth or eighth changed everything. Yeah, because 220 00:16:45,039 --> 00:16:49,320 we now have a new name to add to the Colonial Parkway murders, which 221 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:53,600 we've had a lot of debate even with the publisher about do you count that 222 00:16:53,679 --> 00:16:56,120 person as part of this? And I'm like, I think you have to 223 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:02,320 at this point. So it really changes some of the dynamics. And obviously 224 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,000 it's an ongoing investigation, so at any point things may change. Tomorrow on 225 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:10,559 the morning news, Bill may find out a whole new set of facts, 226 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:15,039 and the rest of us too, So you never know with these things where 227 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:18,839 they're going to end up and how they're going to play out. I would 228 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,119 say the eighth was a big day. Yeah, speaking of the eighth, 229 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,599 why don't you walk us through what happened on January eighth. It was the 230 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,079 first significant break in this case in its thirty seven year history. It was 231 00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:33,519 a day that I don't know that I ever thought we would see. And 232 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,640 on January eighth, the FBI and the VSP announced Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior, 233 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:41,119 sixty three years old of Lancaster County, Virginia, had been connected via 234 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,279 DNA to the murders of Robin Edwards, David Noblaine, and then a new 235 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,000 name that we had not heard and Blaine. I don't know if you were 236 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,680 familiar with her case either, No, Teresa Howell, Teresa SPA Howell. 237 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:56,319 We knew that as of January eighth, Wilmer had died in his home in 238 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,839 twenty seventeen. At that point, that was pretty much all that was released. 239 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,759 It was a very sparse press conference. Is that the word that you 240 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:14,279 guys would use, I would say deceptively lacking material. That's the dial down 241 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,400 VERD. It's been frustrating for me as a researcher because I'm never off the 242 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,200 case with any of these books I write, especially Gold cases. And I'll 243 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,799 be honest with you, I have filed Foyer requests with the FBI because I 244 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:33,559 said, hey, you closed the Nobbling Edwards case and they said so yeah, 245 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,799 you came out and publicly said it's closed. So I want a copy 246 00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:40,240 of those files because I had done a lot of research in them and this 247 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:44,880 would really fill in some gaps. And when I got back from the first 248 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,200 Foyer, request from the FBI was these cases are still open, and I 249 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,319 said, no, it's not. You had a press conference and you said 250 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,119 you knew who killed them, so open you can open those files. I'm 251 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,440 not asking for your sister's files if I can get on my wood, but 252 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,160 give me those files because you said this case is closed, and I have 253 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,240 got nothing but the run around from Virginia State Police and the FBI on that. 254 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,559 Now, I did file on new FOYA and they came back and said 255 00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:18,119 we're reviewing the request. Don't hold your breath on that one. No, 256 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:22,160 don't. Yeah, for anybody who's ever been the FOYO means Freedom of Information 257 00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:26,880 Act request, just so you guys know, and you're entitled to request records 258 00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:32,720 from law enforcement, et cetera, on almost anything. You can request a 259 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,160 lot of information legally and they have to give it to you. At least 260 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,039 that's what they're supposed to do. But in this particular case, they're treating 261 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:47,480 these very much as closed cases or closed cases that are still open, which 262 00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:52,720 doesn't mean that doesn't make anythense makes no sense to me, and I've gotten 263 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:56,599 really a big run around from both Virginia State Police and FBI so far. 264 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,960 Now, Hampton did provide me. I contacted Hampton with a foy and I 265 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,480 said a crime scene photos, I want incident reports, I want all the 266 00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:08,400 interviews because you closed Teresa Holl's case and I don't know anything about that. 267 00:20:08,599 --> 00:20:11,839 And they sent me we were responding to your foyer request. I was like, 268 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,359 oh my god, they're responding. I'm so excited. Good so far, 269 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:21,519 because Hampton's been really good historically with me with Foyer requests, just so 270 00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:26,559 you know. And so they handed me a one page document that's basically so 271 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:32,119 redacted that I know the date she died and who she was, but nothing 272 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:37,000 else. It's literally a completely worthless page. So I'm re initiating some contact 273 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:42,799 with them to go Apparently you didn't read what I requested, so I need 274 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,359 you very charitable. Yeah, I try not to deray law enforcement. It's 275 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,119 not my job to beat up law enforcement. They have a tough job, 276 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,440 and especially on a cold case this big, covering such a wide geography, 277 00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:02,279 covering multiple jurisdictions, both within Virginia State Police and in local law enforcement. 278 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,160 I also put in now I had interviewed the sure from Ragged Island. I 279 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,559 had interviewed him, they had done their own investigation. I contacted them for 280 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,119 a FOY because I said, hey, your case is closed. They said, 281 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,839 we have no files. And I know that's a lie. And I'm 282 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,440 telling you, I've been there to that office on a separate mission. I'm 283 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:29,880 sorry, that's a lie. Those files do exist. They've even shown me 284 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,920 some of those files. For them to claim to blame or any researcher that 285 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,960 there are no files. That's complete garbage. And this is the kind of 286 00:21:38,039 --> 00:21:41,200 thing where forgive me, I'll try not to get up on the Bill Thomas 287 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:45,720 high horse too many times. You're gonna do it, but I can feel 288 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:53,359 it. You get him a phone book to sit on a higher But I'm 289 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,039 sorry, that's garbage, and I'm sorry those are lies. By the way, 290 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:03,119 quick show of hand to anybody from the FBI, anybody from Virginia State 291 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,960 Police, local law enforcement. By the way, they all listen to the 292 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,599 podcast though, as we know this for a fact, because they responded to 293 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:17,680 us regarding the podcast. So we'd like to thank them and we appreciate their 294 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,559 time. Let's talk a little bit about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, and we 295 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:26,359 also want to make sure that we give up the tip line information for anybody 296 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,799 who may have information about Wilmer. But basically what we found out about Alan 297 00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:34,279 Wade Wilmer Senior is this. He was a fisherman, a crabber and an 298 00:22:34,279 --> 00:22:40,799 oysterman who spent a lot of time in Gloucester County, Middlesex County on his 299 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,720 commercial fishing boat, the Denny Wade, which is named after his two kids. 300 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,799 He ran a tree service. He was also a frequent hunter. He 301 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:56,640 was a I would say distinctive character physically five to five, very muscular. 302 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,960 He drove a very distinctive truck as well. He had this blue nineteen sixty 303 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,279 six Dodge Fargo pickup truck with the vanity plate It's Virginia. Of course, 304 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:12,519 everybody's got vanity plates. This one was I M raw and he did have 305 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:18,000 some writing on the truck's passenger door. He also carried around oystering equipment in 306 00:23:18,079 --> 00:23:22,160 the back. Anything else that you want to add about Wilmer in particular, 307 00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:26,000 Yeah, I think we have a photograph of the truck that shows up on 308 00:23:26,079 --> 00:23:30,720 the next slide. Yep, there's the truck. It is a very distinctive 309 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:34,319 truck. And in Blaine and Victoria's book, they were the first people to 310 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,279 report about this truck. And this is several years ago now. When the 311 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:45,039 book was first published, Blaine and Victoria did not include the offender's name, 312 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:49,599 but it was very clear on January eighth, when the press conference was announced 313 00:23:49,759 --> 00:23:55,960 that they were talking about the very same man and the very same vehicle that 314 00:23:56,039 --> 00:24:00,559 Blaine had highlighted. How many years before, god, twenty sixteen. It's 315 00:24:00,599 --> 00:24:03,119 been a while, Yeah, it feels like a lifetime ago. Yeah, 316 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,599 it was a pandemic ago that was a pandemic with a pandemic way before the 317 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,079 murder Hornets. It was interesting because when I saw the picture of the truck 318 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,960 and the license plate, I knew. I was like, the FBI had 319 00:24:15,039 --> 00:24:19,680 talked to this guy. They knew who this guy was, right after Keith 320 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,039 and Cassandra. But when I've gone back over my notes with IRV Wells, 321 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:29,400 et cetera. And you have to explain who is. IRV was the special 322 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,160 Agent in charge at the time during the Keith and Cassandra's case, so he 323 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:41,079 was the FBI lead investigator on that case, and so I had interviewed him, 324 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:42,559 and I went back over my notes as well as what's in the book. 325 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:45,960 I put most of it in the book. It is interesting because we 326 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:49,880 do get it. An idea you talked about we don't know how the killer 327 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:56,759 engaged with people, but we actually do because IRV told us. He said, 328 00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:00,960 this person was known as a person that's stalked people on the Colonial Parkway. 329 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,799 He confronted people, and he actually confronted a guy and a girl who 330 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:11,119 were making out, and they both had long hair, and he said, 331 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,079 so he knocked on their window and said, what are you girls up to 332 00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:17,240 or something along those lines. Then when he saw it was a guy and 333 00:25:17,279 --> 00:25:22,640 a girl, he left. He actually, when the FBI confronted him in 334 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,960 Keith and Cassandra's case, he admitted to being at the next pull off the 335 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:33,480 night they disappeared. So he put himself on the Colonial Parkway that night. 336 00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:37,480 We know that he approached people that were sitting in a vehicle and that he 337 00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:41,000 confronted them. So we actually have a glimpse of what he didn't know. 338 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:47,119 Did he do that at Ragged Island? I have to assume that he followed 339 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,480 that pattern. Did he do it with your sister? Yeah, we don't 340 00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:53,799 know. We don't know, but Bill and I have stood out at some 341 00:25:53,880 --> 00:26:00,799 of the abandoned Colonial Parkway pull offs and stuff, the nearest one being up 342 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,920 the road, and some of the picnic tables were there and brings up still, 343 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,400 but it's hip deep in grass. You could picture that he could have 344 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,720 pulled in there and confronted somebody, and there's like a line of trees that 345 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:18,359 would have blocked the view from the parkway. So we know bits and pieces 346 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,960 of how Wilmer operated, and now we know for sure he is definitely linked 347 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:30,200 to three murders. Yes, so we have our confirmed Wilmer victims right up 348 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,720 there on the board. To Robin, to David and then Teresa and Blaine. 349 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,279 You said you were not familiar with Teresa. No, I really haven't. 350 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,000 I've been doing some research into her family has reached out to us, 351 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,799 which is great. We're still in the early stages of this because you got 352 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:51,440 to I need the police reports so I can ask the meaningful questions as much 353 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,640 as possible. You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back after 354 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:08,960 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Before we 355 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,039 get back to the podcast, just wanted to remind you that we have a 356 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:18,160 go fundme effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to help us 357 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,200 raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder, and specifically to push the Colonial 358 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:29,319 Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could support us in any 359 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:33,519 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford 360 00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:37,640 is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is in the 361 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,279 show notes and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for your 362 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:48,839 support. Now back to mindover Murder. So a couple of things here. 363 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,799 Kristin and I have made no bones about the fact that we knew that January 364 00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:59,000 eighth was coming, and we knew that Wilmer was going to be identified as 365 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,599 a suspect as far back as October twenty twenty three. We had heard this 366 00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:08,440 through media sources, so we knew this was coming we knew there was ultimately 367 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,079 going to be a press conference and announcements made about the fact that this deceased 368 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,000 watermen was linked to these homicides, and that there was going to be a 369 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:22,160 third victim, Teresa Howell, who was also going to be identified. We 370 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:26,119 did what the FBI asked us to do. I know that's a little hard 371 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,200 to believe for those of you that listened to the podcast, and it may 372 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,680 even be hard for my friends at the Federal riew of Investigation to accept this, 373 00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:37,799 but we actually didn't leak the fact that this information was coming. We 374 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:41,920 were respectful of the process, and so January eighth, they made their announcement, 375 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,519 also rolling back the calendar a little bit. About a year ago, 376 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:52,720 we got a call that the Virginia State Police and the Virginia Department of Forensic 377 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:57,039 Science had applied for and received a SAKE Grant SAKI, you'll see it up 378 00:28:57,079 --> 00:29:02,839 there, which stands for Sexual Assault Initiative Grant, and these are federal funds 379 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:07,960 that are distributed to state and local law enforcement for testing of untested rape kits 380 00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:14,000 and other evidence from unsolved cases. So we were given a tip that this 381 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,839 was happening in the Robin Edwards David Nobling example. So I reached out to 382 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:23,079 Jeannette Edwards Santiago. She's Robin's older sister. She's the Bill Thomas of the 383 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,880 Edwards family if you catch the sibling relationship here. We had heard that this 384 00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:33,240 was happening, so we reached out to the Virginia State Police or the responsible 385 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,640 agency, and they did confirm that this was happening. Initially, the first 386 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,960 lab that did the testing was unsuccessful. In other words, they were taking 387 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:47,359 the rape kit from the Robin Edwards rape murder and they're testing it. But 388 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,559 it's a very small amount of DNA, it's highly degraded, it's over thirty 389 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,240 years old. And don't forget Robin and David were dumped in the water, 390 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,559 so it's been exposed to at least some degree of salt water over three day 391 00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:06,400 period. But it's a really challenging DNA profile to try to extract further. 392 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:11,599 There's such a small amount of DNA left that there was a concern that, 393 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:15,160 because earlier tests had been done over the years, that this might be our 394 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:18,480 last shot. I spoke to Jeanette, and ultimately it was their call. 395 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,960 But I said, Jeanette, you want to hear my opinion. She said 396 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,240 sure, and I said, we're not getting any younger. More than half 397 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,240 the parents in this case, including her father, if I'm not mistaken, 398 00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:34,039 at that point, yeah, have gone to their graves waiting for answers. 399 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,960 None of us are getting any younger. If this is our last best shot, 400 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:42,279 let's take it. Jeanette felt the same way, so she conveyed that 401 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,240 to them. Then they came back to us a couple of months later and 402 00:30:45,279 --> 00:30:49,480 they said they were unsuccessful. So that was a disappointing result. However, 403 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:55,240 the good news is they didn't use any DNA to figure out that this particular 404 00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:59,000 lab was not going to be able to extract a profile. They kept at 405 00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:03,400 it though. We sent the evidence to another lab. I think I know 406 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,839 which one, but I don't want to say publicly because I'm not one hundred 407 00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:10,759 percent sure. But it's a highly respected lab and they ran test and they 408 00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:17,400 got a result. So now what I'm saying is these sake grants are incredibly 409 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,119 important, and this leads directly to the identification of Alan Wade Wilmer in the 410 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:27,799 Robin Edwards David Nobling murder, and then immediately ties in the Teresa Howell murder. 411 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:33,799 So this is like the single ratest development in the Colonial Parkway murders in 412 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,240 thirty seven years. And as a result of your tax dollars and hours being 413 00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:42,960 used to test a rape kit. I have to give the Virginia State Police 414 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,480 and the Virginia DFS a lot of credit for making this happen. So we 415 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,359 have these three confirmed victims of Wilmer, Robin, David, and Teresa. 416 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,079 Another thing that came out not on January eighthslod after it is the fact that 417 00:31:57,119 --> 00:32:01,880 there are two probable victims, and that would be Keith call and Cassandra Haley. 418 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:08,200 He was suspect number one from the beginning of the investigation into their disappearances, 419 00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:15,680 and that is information that law enforcement opted not to share in their January 420 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,839 eighth press But law enforcement has told the families in their private briefing that they 421 00:32:20,839 --> 00:32:24,240 are ninety nine percent sure that Wilmer is responsible for the disappearance of Keith Collin 422 00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:29,799 Cassandra Haley. And I think that's something they should have brought up at that 423 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,920 presser. Blaine, what do you think? I agree? If that's what 424 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,319 they believe, why not give the families the closure? Because They could have 425 00:32:36,359 --> 00:32:38,200 closed it right then and there and said, look, we're not going to 426 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,759 be able to bring this guy to trial, but we believe he is that 427 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,240 person. We know he was on the Parkway that night. We know that 428 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:51,759 he was their prime suspect based on a profile that was developed during your sister's 429 00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:55,920 case. Wilmer was on their radar. They searched his house. They found 430 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:01,200 handcuffs. Now, I am sure there's some fun need for handcuffs for some 431 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,279 people. I can't think of any, but they found handcuffs, pornography, 432 00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:09,960 knives, guns, et cetera. There's a lot of things that could have 433 00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:15,839 been leveraged and used, and if they had acted, they could have prevented 434 00:33:15,039 --> 00:33:21,480 the other murders. That's the thing that has bothered me almost as much as 435 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,119 not closing the ones that they're ninety nine percent sure, If they truly are 436 00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:29,640 ninety nine percent sure, come out and say that, and we give the 437 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,440 families an immense amount of relief. They know they'd be able to say we 438 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:38,920 know what's happened. And I understand the FBI's hesitation because if they're going but 439 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:44,079 we need a physical evidence or we need testimony to do it, I understand 440 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:50,200 the legal reasons around that. I'm talking about people and emotions and real life, 441 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:53,519 okay, and that's the world I live in. It's infuriating from my 442 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,319 perspective. Two days prior to the press conference, on January eighth, they 443 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,519 met with the families, not including our family. I'm talking about the families 444 00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:07,799 that are directly impacted. But they told them we're ninety nine percent certain that 445 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:13,320 Alan Wadewilmer is responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of Keith Collin Cassandra Haley. 446 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,599 They said that privately to the families, oh, who were also told, 447 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:22,719 by the way, don't tell Bill Thomas. I have no idea why 448 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,760 for them not to be willing to say that. And if those of you 449 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,679 who saw the press conference or you can go back and watch it if you 450 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,559 want online. I could only watch it once. It's too infuriating. One 451 00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:38,159 of the reporters, Andy Fox from WABY, who's been covering this case since 452 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:43,639 nineteen eighty six, he asked them, and by the way, it's very 453 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:49,920 hard to hear him. I run press conferences and done communication my entire professional 454 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,639 career. I believe that was done deliberately. In other words, it was 455 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:58,639 done deliberately so that you couldn't hear the questions very well. The truth of 456 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,639 the matter is the protocol in a press conference is either set up a microphone 457 00:35:01,639 --> 00:35:06,800 and allow the reporters to ask questions, or the person who's in seeing the 458 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,480 thing answering the questions repeats the question so that the public can hear what the 459 00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:15,639 question is before they answer it. And they didn't do that either. And 460 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,440 I also believe that was deliberate. And as a professional who's run press conferences, 461 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,599 and I'm talking about a lot of press conferences, I believe those things 462 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:28,079 were done deliberately. So Andy Fox asked the question something along the lines of 463 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,360 and you say, when Alan Wade Wilmer Senior first moved on to your radar, 464 00:35:31,559 --> 00:35:39,119 and the spokesperson refused to answer the question. Twice the question was asked, 465 00:35:39,599 --> 00:35:44,159 and the public has a right to know these things, and the families 466 00:35:44,199 --> 00:35:47,440 have a right to know these things, and they refuse to answer the question. 467 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:52,840 And of course it takes people like Blaine Pardo, Andy Fox, Bill 468 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:58,800 Thomas Kristin Dilly we end up in this weird position where we have to call 469 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,480 them out on I mean, on a good day, I would call it 470 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:06,079 deceptive, as I think that was a word you used a second ago on 471 00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:09,159 a bad day. I feel like we're being lined to and this does not 472 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:15,639 make me feel good about the straightforwardness the transparency that I think we should be 473 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:22,320 looking for agencies like the FBI and the Virginia State Police and any other agency 474 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,880 that's signed up an oath to protect and serve. I think that's outrageous. 475 00:36:27,119 --> 00:36:30,800 Here. Yeah, we've got three confirmed Wilmer victims, and we have two 476 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:37,639 probable Wilmer victims. But now we're going to get into the potentially murky waters 477 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:44,360 of other potential Wilmer victims. And we would like to start this portion with 478 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:52,039 the following caveat. Okay, Wilmer's potential involvement is solely conjecture on our part, 479 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:57,559 based on information that we have available. Please keep in mind we say 480 00:36:57,559 --> 00:36:59,840 it all the time on the podcast, but we are here to repeat it 481 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,440 one more time. We are not investigators, We are not members of law 482 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:08,119 enforcement. We do not have tools available to us to prove our suppositions outside 483 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:13,519 of what we have gathered on our own and fair requests when they come back 484 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:16,480 to us. All of the cases we're about to talk about deserve to be 485 00:37:16,599 --> 00:37:22,440 solved regardless of Allan Wade Wilmer Senior's involvement. And it is now law enforcement's 486 00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:27,559 job to investigate these cases and prove whether or not Wilmer is linked to them. 487 00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:31,000 It is not our job to do anything other than to say, here 488 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,000 are some areas of potential concern that we think Wilmer could be involved in. 489 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:38,760 Now it's time for someone else to pick up the ball and run with it. 490 00:37:39,199 --> 00:37:43,639 So I'm going to present these MC style and then Bill and blaneed like 491 00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:46,880 your input on all of these and see where we're at. In the months 492 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,519 since January eighth, Bill and I have been putting together a list of other 493 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:55,119 potential cases that we think Wilmer might be involved in. And again this is 494 00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,239 conjecture on our part. It is based on information that we have gleaned. 495 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,599 And but you know, like I said, it's up to law enforcement to 496 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:06,119 take the ball and run with it. The other potential cases Wilmer might be 497 00:38:06,119 --> 00:38:08,760 involved in that we would like to see law enforcement spend some time on the 498 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:14,119 murders of Dale and Charlotte Rodgers, Mary Harding, Kathy Thomas, and Rebecca 499 00:38:14,199 --> 00:38:19,440 Dowski. Brian Pettinger, Laurie Ann Powell, Belinda Ann Ashburn, Donna Canaday, 500 00:38:19,679 --> 00:38:22,920 Anna Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lauer, Amber Lundgren and Peggy Lammers. 501 00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:25,880 And we're going to go through each of these one at a time. I'm 502 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,119 going to walk you guys through this. This is very basic because we only 503 00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:31,880 have a finite amount of time with you, and we're going to cover each 504 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,599 of these in more detail in an upcoming podcast episode. There are three cases 505 00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:43,039 that we want to highlight that occurred in Lancaster County, which is Wilmer's home. 506 00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:47,280 Essentially, these are not the only unsolved cases in that area, but 507 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,599 these are just the ones that we're choosing to focus on right at this moment. 508 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,440 We are happy to take a look at any other cases that you may 509 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,920 think Wilmer might be involved in and might need to come to our attention. 510 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:02,000 So please do send us that information if you think you have something that needs 511 00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:05,960 to have a little bit more attention paid to it. So we want to 512 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,159 talk about Dale and Charlotte Rogers, Mary Harding and Peggy Lammers. Shall we 513 00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:14,039 start here? I think we should? And Blaine, I'm hoping that you've 514 00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:16,199 maybe some of these have crossed your radar. If not, I think you're 515 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:20,239 going to just come to do your basic bear bones this one. I've read 516 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,480 the article, okay, like a lot of people at this point, and 517 00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:27,320 that's actually one of the best sources right now. So let's get into this. 518 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,079 Daleen, Charlotte rogers Dale and Charlotte Rodgers were murdered in their home in 519 00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:35,920 Leicester County on February twenty seventh of nineteen seventy six. They were ambushed in 520 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,360 their home and they were both shot with a shotgun in the back of the 521 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,599 head. There were no signs of forced entry, and the victims were next 522 00:39:43,599 --> 00:39:47,840 door neighbors of Gary Linkford, who would feature in another perplexing case, which 523 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,239 is a rabbit hole all of its own in Henraiko County, which is the 524 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,360 murder of Olivia Thorndyke. And we want to spend a little bit more time 525 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,679 on that. We just don't have the time for it rated the moment. 526 00:39:59,039 --> 00:40:02,880 The Rogers murderers, we understand it. We're not experts. We haven't been 527 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,000 spending the time yet with these other cases as much as we have with the 528 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:13,400 original Colonial Parkway murders. This is a murder that appears to be a robbery 529 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,880 of a sort. There are some very odd details in addition to being nextdoor 530 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,800 neighbors, and this is very spread out. For those of you that are 531 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,719 from Lancaster County, you can tell us more than I can, as I 532 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:28,719 understand it, it's very spread out there. Langford lives nearby, but also 533 00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:34,239 right next door the Wilmer family. A number of people have suspected for decades 534 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,159 now we're talking about nineteen seventy six, that there's a possibility that Alan Wade 535 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,880 Wilmer or other members of his family could be involved in this murder. There's 536 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,199 a couple things that really stand out to me. One is that their daughter 537 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,880 was out of town returned to find her parents killed. One kind of odd 538 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,679 kidlike thing about this case, which is someone stole their Volkswagen and then abandoned 539 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:00,760 it or hid it behind a shed a few miles away. And it always 540 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,840 struck me as such like a kid like thing to do to steal the neighbor's 541 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,639 car and hide it at a nearby location. It didn't seem like something that 542 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,800 professional killer, if there is such a thing, would do, a lot 543 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:16,679 of people in Lancaster County still think that the Wilmers may be involved in the 544 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:21,719 murder of Dale and Charlotte Rodgers. Dale was an airline pilot. They had 545 00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:23,480 a beautiful house down in the water, and they were renovating the house, 546 00:41:23,519 --> 00:41:27,480 and they'd had a lot of workmen go in and out of there, not 547 00:41:27,599 --> 00:41:30,599 implying anything that would involve any of those people, but a number of people 548 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:35,519 knew what was going on with the house and had a sense of the fact 549 00:41:35,519 --> 00:41:37,880 that this was an isolated location, and then it was a fair amount of 550 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,960 money going into this house in terms of the renovation. And were you familiar 551 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,360 with Dale and Charlotte Rodgers at all? Is there any part of this that 552 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,239 you can pick too? Yeah, I actually can. In the article that 553 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,639 you read, they implicate his brother as a possible suspect, which is William 554 00:41:53,800 --> 00:42:00,519 Keith Wilmer. Now, on its own, that doesn't necessarily tie in allan 555 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,840 to this, but remember that when the police after Keith and Cassandra's death and 556 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:10,760 had started doing surveillance, the brothers were living together, so that it kind 557 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,400 of points to a connection there potentially that they thought this. Now I pulled 558 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:21,920 up police records for both of these gentlemen in Lancaster County and William Keith Wilmer, 559 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,800 who has been implicated in this at least in the article, was charged 560 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,480 with indecent language on the phone, obscene language on the phone, and an 561 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,559 obscene phone call starting in nineteen seventy one through nineteen eighty three, he was 562 00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:39,639 doing those things. Alan Wade Wilmer only had two charges that were outstanding. 563 00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:45,000 Both were in ninety or nineteen eighty one. October twenty ninth he was charged 564 00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:51,519 with cursing and abuse and charged with assault and battery, So those are only 565 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:55,679 criminal records local for Lancaster. To me, I think the most important thing 566 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:01,159 is that the article it said clearly that they had consider in this, and 567 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:07,559 we know his brother was part of getting his trailer tossed by the FBI, 568 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:10,880 So to me, there's some crossover linkages there. I hope you guys understood 569 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,199 where I was going with this. To me, it points to this might 570 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,880 not be just a one person type thing. It could be a pair of 571 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,920 brothers doing this, or it could very well be a third party. It's 572 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:27,760 an accomplice to this. And there is a third younger brother, Tim Wilmer, 573 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,239 who's the youngest of the threes, also deceased. He died almost a 574 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,119 year to the day after Alan Wade Wilmer died, and we're actually having a 575 00:43:35,159 --> 00:43:38,599 little bit of a hard time pinning down exactly how Timmy died. He also 576 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:44,760 had pretty extensive criminal record, a lot of relatively minor offenses, breaking and 577 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:50,400 entering, stealing guns, food, and other things from neighbors and other people. 578 00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:54,000 We're still trying to pin down. Even his family isn't able to tell 579 00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:59,800 us how tim Timmy Wilmer died. So in the next case that we came 580 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,079 to that a couple people mentioned at our last live session is the murder of 581 00:44:04,119 --> 00:44:07,199 Mary Harding and Blaine. You were just referencing the excellent article on this case, 582 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,239 murder on the Rappahannock, which appeared in the Washingtonian. I believe it 583 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,239 was, and that is probably the I would call that the piece of record 584 00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:20,960 about the Mary Harding case. And so Mary Harding twenty four went missing on 585 00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:23,599 August twenty third, nineteen eighty five, and it appears that she was taken 586 00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:28,239 out of her home, her children were left alone in the house, and 587 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,239 when law enforcement arrived, dinner was still on the table. There was still 588 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:36,079 cleanser in the sink that cat's literature had been spilt in the yard. Her 589 00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:38,599 flip flops were found outside, one in the driveway, one in the back 590 00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:42,280 of the house, as as she'd been literally lifted out of them, and 591 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,519 she was ultimately found four days later on August twenty seventh in the Rappahannock River, 592 00:44:46,079 --> 00:44:50,239 and she was found with a rope around her neck tied to a chain 593 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,320 in a cinder block. And as you had mentioned a couple of minutes ago, 594 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:57,519 Blaine Keith Wilmer was pretty heavily implicated in that article. But it is 595 00:44:57,559 --> 00:45:00,159 going to be very interesting to see. Is there any to either of his 596 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,880 other brothers, if you guys want to speak, I don't know. I 597 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,159 hate saying, oh, he's definitely involved, but to me, it's certainly 598 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:12,440 something. If I was an investigator, I would be taking a look at 599 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,199 and I'm sure you guys would be the same way. How many people and 600 00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,800 here would think it's worth taking a look at the brother? Yeah, it's 601 00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:23,280 and I'm an only child, but I can't imagine if my brother had the 602 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:29,480 FBI toss our place that I wouldn't know what was going on there. That's 603 00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:32,440 just me suspicious nature. Yeah, There are a couple things that are worth 604 00:45:32,519 --> 00:45:38,199 noting. Mary Harding worked at the Lancaster Bank with Keith Wilmer's wife. Keith 605 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:44,519 Wilmer actually ended up being banned from his wife's place of employment, the Lancaster 606 00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:50,719 Bank, because of his endless sexual harassment of women coming and going in and 607 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,119 out of the bank. So first he was banned from the bank premises, 608 00:45:53,159 --> 00:45:58,679 and then ultimately they had to ban him from the parking lot because he would 609 00:45:58,679 --> 00:46:00,960 pick up and drop off his wife for work. This is a family, 610 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,760 by the way, with multiple vehicles, and the expression control freak comes to 611 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,719 mind, but maybe it's just me. He would pick up and drop off 612 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:14,119 his wife, and he would say obscene inappropriate things to women walking in and 613 00:46:14,119 --> 00:46:16,960 out of the bank where his wife worked. This is also the same odd 614 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,199 ball with the extensive record of obscene phone calls, et cetera. Now I'm 615 00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:25,119 not saying that makes them a murderer, but it certainly makes for an interesting 616 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,679 conversation, one would think. And those obscene phone calls were to a bank 617 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,199 employee, so we know that. Yeah, so every small town in Virginia 618 00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:43,000 has a quirky family. I think every small town in America Yeah, and 619 00:46:43,559 --> 00:46:47,400 they're the local bullies. They're the family that everybody tells you stay away from 620 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:52,400 them. Everybody knows their trouble. They've got an ac DC poster hanging as 621 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:59,079 a curtain for the front I like specific Blaine. Yeah, they got a 622 00:46:59,119 --> 00:47:02,719 three legged put in the front yard. Not a chain. You guys know 623 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,880 what I'm talking about. There's every one of those communities I've ever been in 624 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,880 Virginia has that family where it's don't go deal with them. And the vibe 625 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:15,599 I've been getting from tips we've gotten has been this is the Wilmer family. 626 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:20,039 They were just people you didn't want to cross, or mess with, or 627 00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:24,519 engage with. Moving on to our incident number one for the Colonial Parkway murders, 628 00:47:24,679 --> 00:47:28,599 and this is something obviously Bill and I spent a great deal of time 629 00:47:28,639 --> 00:47:31,480 talking about. Everyone is familiar with incident number one in this case, and 630 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,639 that is the murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. They were founding Kathy's 631 00:47:36,639 --> 00:47:39,239 car at the Cheea Mannox Overlook on the Colonial Parkway. This was not the 632 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,639 primary crime scene, but we do not at this point know where the primary 633 00:47:43,639 --> 00:47:46,239 crime scene actually is. Bill, we were actually talking the other night. 634 00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:51,880 In exploring theories as we do, why do you think Wilmer might potentially be 635 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,320 connected to Kathy and Becky's murders. First of all, we can't forget that 636 00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:00,199 there's one hundred and fifty persons of interest in the Colonial Parkway and that's that 637 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,360 minimum. The number may have grown since the last time the FBI gave us 638 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:09,559 this number, and there are plenty of very viable suspects who could fit the 639 00:48:09,599 --> 00:48:15,800 Colonial Parkway murders and Kathy and Becky's murder specifically. However, Wilmer checks a 640 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,199 lot of boxes when Kathy and Becky were killed. Remember we talked about the 641 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,719 authority figure. That doesn't necessarily have to mean a person dressed in a policeman's 642 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,920 uniform. It means someone that's approaching these couples. We were told right from 643 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:36,559 the beginning that they were looking at watermen, so these other murders haven't occurred 644 00:48:36,599 --> 00:48:39,239 yet, This is just Kathy and Becky. They had said they were looking 645 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:45,639 at watermen as a potential group of offenders, and they told us that they 646 00:48:45,679 --> 00:48:50,119 thought that was a strong possibility. And then as a couple of years went 647 00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:54,159 by, then we were told the so called driveway story where they told our 648 00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:00,639 family in nineteen eighty eight that they had identified suspects who were watermen. I 649 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:05,159 knew that they lived up in Lancaster County and they had been approached, and 650 00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:10,239 supposedly they didn't mention a suspect's name or anything, but supposedly those suspects plural 651 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:16,159 were given a lie detector test by the FBI and ultimately ruled out. There 652 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:22,440 was so much about these suspects that seemed to be actually a good fit for 653 00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:25,199 the Kathy Thomas Rebeccadowski murder. So now here it is, all these years 654 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:30,400 later. Both Blaine and I have met at different times with IRV Wells, 655 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:35,159 the former SAC who's unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago. Now both 656 00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:38,199 of us spent hours with him, and he told us separately the so called 657 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:44,840 driveway story, and he seemed to indicate that he felt and the ACE agents 658 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,320 working with him seemed to feel, that these people were likely involved in the 659 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,719 disappearance of Keith Collin Cassandra Hayley, which by nineteen eighty eight had happened, 660 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,880 as well as the murder of Kathy and Becky. I'm sorry, go ahead, 661 00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:00,039 now, I have to go in because you're very close by. I 662 00:50:00,079 --> 00:50:05,519 think let's marry the evidence. Go ahead, Okay, both victims suffered from 663 00:50:05,559 --> 00:50:13,440 strangulation with a nautical line one to the knife that nearly decapitated your sister. 664 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,519 And I'm sorry for saying that that's okay, It's hard. Was it considered 665 00:50:16,559 --> 00:50:22,800 a sharp knife or a fisherman's knife may have fit that profile. And the 666 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,760 vehicle was doused in diesel fuel and the person doing it tried to light it 667 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,800 on fire with matches, couldn't because diesel fuel has a higher ignition point stupid 668 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,840 things you have to learn. Then they pushed the car into the river. 669 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,039 Who would have diesel fuel, someone who has a boat, and they buy 670 00:50:39,079 --> 00:50:45,079 the diesel fuel somewhere else because buying it at the docks, everybody knows it's 671 00:50:45,199 --> 00:50:47,760 much more expensive. So you buy it at the local gas station and take 672 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,079 it with you, you might not know that it has a higher ignition. 673 00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:57,480 So there were physical evidence that pointed them to this waterman theory. Totally agree, 674 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:01,760 So I think Wilmer. I'm not saying that this is the only option 675 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:07,599 here for Kathy and Becky's murder, but Wilmer does check a lot of boxes. 676 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:10,760 In the Kathy Thomas for Beccadowski murder. We know that he was spending 677 00:51:12,039 --> 00:51:16,199 time on the parkway hassling couples doing his cop ruse. I could one hundred 678 00:51:16,199 --> 00:51:22,039 percent see him rolling up on Kathy and Becky knocking on the window, give 679 00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:23,719 me your driver's license. We know that was standard. We've heard other people 680 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:29,039 say that's what he did. And I can imagine Kathy telling him a string 681 00:51:29,039 --> 00:51:30,880 of expletives that I will not say here because it's the family show. I 682 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:36,519 can imagine Kathy basically telling him Conell and that not going well. You have 683 00:51:36,559 --> 00:51:39,079 to remember with my sister, she was a graduate of the United States Naval 684 00:51:39,119 --> 00:51:44,480 Academy. She had extensive martial arts training. She's in the second class with 685 00:51:44,599 --> 00:51:47,679 women at the Naval Academy. I come from a Navy family. My father, 686 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,039 my older brother Richard, and my younger sister Kathy are the first father 687 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,840 son daughter graduates of the Naval Academy. There's a lot of pride there. 688 00:51:57,079 --> 00:52:00,199 At the same time, my sister and her classmates in the second class with 689 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:05,400 women. So remember that means the upper classmen at the Naval Academy entered under 690 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,840 a single sex arrangement. And then Congress decided that women should be allowed to 691 00:52:09,079 --> 00:52:12,960 tend the service academy, which I think was the right call, but that 692 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,559 didn't mean it went over particularly well with upper classmen. To be frank, 693 00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:22,119 my sister and her classmates put up with a tremendous amount of harassment at the 694 00:52:22,199 --> 00:52:24,760 Naval Academy, and even in the fleet. There were a lot of people 695 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:30,000 in the United States Navy and the other services that did not want young female 696 00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:37,000 officers reporting for duty. They didn't suffer fools gladly. And if some idiot 697 00:52:37,159 --> 00:52:39,239 rolled up on her, and we talked about this just recently, if some 698 00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:45,480 idiot rolled up on her and started pounding on the window and demanding barber's licenses, 699 00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:47,880 she might not take all that kindly to it. And as we understand 700 00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:52,719 from the autopsy, there was a significant struggle on Kathy's part. Now she 701 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,000 ended up losing the fight, as did Becky, it's not out of the 702 00:52:57,199 --> 00:53:00,679 question that Kathy might have fought back, particularly if she figured out this guy 703 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:07,159 is not the copy he's pretending to be. It could happen. Join us 704 00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:12,400 again next time as we continue our exploration of the Colonial Parkway murders and take 705 00:53:12,559 --> 00:53:19,280 live questions from our audience at the Yorktown Library in Yorktown, Virginia. Thank 706 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,519 you all so very much for showing up to our second live event here at 707 00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:24,679 the Yorktown Library. And thank you very much to everyone at the Yorktown Library 708 00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:28,519 for so graciously hosting us, for helping us with our setup, and for 709 00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:30,000 being all around awesome. Thank you very much. Can we give them a 710 00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:37,920 round of applause? Please? Thank you Bethrinding, and thank all of you 711 00:53:38,159 --> 00:53:40,480 for being here. If you want to chat with us work, we are 712 00:53:40,559 --> 00:53:44,679 available and we look forward to it. Yes, that is going to do 713 00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:46,480 it for this episode of mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 714 00:53:47,360 --> 00:54:00,400 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute 715 00:54:00,519 --> 00:54:07,719 Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 716 00:54:07,039 --> 00:54:12,599 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin 717 00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:17,480 mcleoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You 718 00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:22,719 can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow 719 00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:27,079 our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can 720 00:54:27,079 --> 00:54:30,679 follow Bill Thomas on Twitter. At Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for 721 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,280 listening to Mind Over Murder.