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Hey, folks, welcome back to
another interview for the Ruby Dev Summit.

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I am here with Jason Sweat.
Jason, it's good to see you again.

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Man, good to see you too. Yeah. So let's just jump

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right in and ask what is the
future of Ruby. I have no idea

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what the future of Ruby is.
You know, it's been said that making

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predictions is a really good way to
end up being wrong, and so I

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try not to be in the habit
of making predictions. Okay, there's some

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things that we can probably know with
fairly high certainty, which is that it'll

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be around for a long time.
I think we could be confident of that.

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You know, I maybe have ten
or twenty years left of my programming

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career, and I have no concern
that Ruby will go away before I'm ready

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to stop working with it. So
that's one thing. And right now it

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seems like we're experiencing a Ruby renaissance, which is wonderful to see. And

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so who knows, maybe Ruby will
be ten times as big ten years from

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now. It's impossible to know.
Yeah, that's true. It seems like

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you keep betting on it though,
right I mean, you've got you've got

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to see eye product that you've got
coming out that you're working on in Ruby,

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and I'm assuming it serves Ruby clients. You run sin City Ruby.

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You know, you talk about Ruby
on your podcast, So yeah, it

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seems like you're you're mostly all in
on this, and you know, are

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there particular things that are making you
excited or bullish about this? Is it

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just the renaissanceers or something else.
I don't know. I just like the

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Ruby language, as many people do, and when I've tried other languages,

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like Python, for example, it's
like I've nothing against Python. I like

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Python, I just don't like it
quite as much as I like Ruby.

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And if somehow a better language came
along, then I would certainly consider switching

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to that. It's just nothing I've
worked with is quite as nice to work

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with as Ruby. You know,
it's optimized for programmer happiness, as they

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say, and I certainly experienced that
happiness that they were shooting for. That's

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what keeps me, keeps me with
it. It's not necessarily anything external,

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like what's happening in the community or
what's happening with rails or anything like that.

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It's just I like working with the
language, and I have a hard

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time considering any alternative, right that
makes sense? So yeah, I'm just

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curious. Then, maybe not so
much the future of Ruby as the language

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or the community or things like that. But where do you see Ruby taking

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you? Then? Like? Where
are you going with Ruby? Very interesting?

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Where do I see Ruby taking me? Where am I going to go

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with Ruby? I think I'm going
to go the places I'm going to go

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anyway, Like if God took Ruby
away from the world tomorrow, I think

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I would do basically the same stuff. It would just have to be with

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something that's not Ruby. Ruby is
just my favorite way to achieve the things

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that I want to achieve. So
for me personally, as you know,

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Chuck, I do consulting, TDD
coaching, and that kind of is technology

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agnostic. Largely, the principles of
testing are technology agnostic, and so if

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I had to switch to Python,
Django testing or something like that, it

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wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'd had some new technologies to learn,

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but not new principles. So where
do I see myself going? Still

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the consulting stuff, I'm working on
a book about rails testing. You know,

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I already have a book about rails
testing, but I'm redoing it.

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I will confess that I have a
tendency to take on too many projects,

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and so sometimes I start a booking
that I don't finish it. But I'm

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pretty confident that I'm going to finish
this one, just because it's a book

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that I've had in me for a
long time. I just haven't gotten around

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to putting the entire thing on paper
yet. And then, yeah, as

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you mentioned, I have my CI
project that I'm working on, but that's

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like a distant third or fourth priority
for me right now. Yeah, it's

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basically just for the sake of having
a project for pedagogical purposes so that when

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I do live coding in front of
people, well I have something to code

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on. That's that's right, That's
maybe the main reason for it. And

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just I I have developed a loathing
for Circle CI and get hub actions,

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and so I'm creating it out of
spite to some degree too, but it's

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it's not my main thing. Oh
I'm gonna I'm going to ask it.

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So, so what is it about
Circle CI or get Hub actions that you

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don't love? Do UI? And
it's not just that I don't love it,

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It's it's that I absolutely loathe it. It's it's really frustrating, Like,

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for example, and get hub actions, because that's what I've used most

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recently. When a test fails,
What is the first thing you would want

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to know? You'd want to know
what failed? Which that answer is kind

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of hard to get. It's like
what you have to you have to drill

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down and scroll and all this stuff. And it's like that's kind of crazy.

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It's like that just scruptured the log
to find out Yeah, oh that's

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yeah, that's aboptimal optimal. Yeah, and you know you have to you

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have to go to your build and
then if you have parallelism, which you

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probably are going to, you have
to find which parallel job contains the failed

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test? Yeah, and go to
that. And it's like the parallelism is

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just an incidental detail, Like why
should I have to be concerned with the

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which parallel job it is? I
should just be told what the failure message

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was so I can address the failure, right, So things like that,

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Like it feels like they just don't
get it. It feels like the people

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who have built it don't actually use
CI themselves, and so I want to

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build something that's like pleasant to use
I gotcha. And I think that kind

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of harks back to what you were
talking about with Ruby itself, where Ruby

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gives you that experience, right,
it gives you that experience that makes you

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happy. Are there particular aspects of
writing Ruby that lean you that way?

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Hmmm. I've used Ruby exclusively for
so long that it's hard for me to

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even even think about what that might
be. Oh, here's here's maybe how

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I could access that answer. I
switched back to Python occasionally because I do

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some like genetic programming experiments in Python
from time to time, and it's so

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annoying, for example, that you
have to put like self in every class

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method definition and it's like, why
why are you making me do a thing

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that the computer can do better?
So stuff like that. They just made

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it. They just made it.
This isn't a very nice way to put

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it, but they just made it. Not stupid. I can't disagree with

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you, but yeah, yeah,
yeah, like no offense to Python,

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but the fact that you have to
type self and to every method definition,

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like that's dumb that you have to
do that. And so I appreciate those

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those thoughtful details. And it's not
even like the presence of something in that

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particular case, it's the absence of
something like I'm right, I like the

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fact that that's not there in Ruby. I don't have to think about things

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I shouldn't have to think about,
right, that makes total sense. I

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kind of want to veer into Sin
City Ruby for a minute. What are

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you looking for as far as like
experienced speakers things like that. I know

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that it's you know, your CFP
is closed or you know, things like

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that, but because we're getting close
to it, but yeah, yeah,

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and crazy enough, I have the
speaker lineup for twenty twenty five all my

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almost full, even though though twenty
twenty four conference hasn't happened yet. Oh

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really yeah, But what I'm hoping
people get out of it is that they

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have fun, of course, and
that they make new friendships. It would

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be an ideal outcome for me if
everybody who goes makes at least one lifelong

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friendship that can help them in their
career and just enhance their life and career

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in some way. That's the ideal
outcome for me. That's cool. Usually

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people talk as much about like what
talks are going to hear, or what

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technologies they'll learn, or what kind
of if there's a career outcome, it's

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skill based, not relationship based.
Yeah, well, no offense to everyone

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who's ever given a conference talk,
But like, is a conference talk ever

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really that great? Like maybe one
conference talk in a thousand is like a

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life changer or whatever. It blows
your mind. Most of the time the

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talks are fine and the speaker does
just just find job. That's all good,

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but it's like the talk ends and
then everybody forgets what it even was,

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Like it's just not exactly the right
format for conveying technical information. Right,

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talks that are like a story or
something like that can be good.

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And so you know, I think
the main thing that happens is like with

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me personally, at least, I'll
go and see a talk and maybe the

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talk mentions an idea that I wasn't
aware of, Like it mentioned, oh,

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I don't know, like Turbo eight's
coming out, and I'm like,

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oh, turbo Right, I'll go
look that up. Not a great example,

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because that's that's pretty well publicized at
this point, but right, it's

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usually like an idea rather than like
where if if you read a book,

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then like I'll learn a lot from
that book and maybe retain it and I

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can go put back over it and
stuff like that. A talk isn't quite

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the same thing. So I'm even
though I am having speakers and I think

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the speakers are very good and they'll
give great talks and all that stuff,

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the emphasis is more on the on
the relationships that I hope people form.

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What are there? Yeah makes sense. Yeah, it's really not that far

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from here either, which makes me
want to go. There's still tickets all

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right, Well that these are going
to come out next week. So if

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you all want to go to Las
Vegas and have an awesome Ruby experience,

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go check it out. Is it
sincityeruby dot com sincitaruby dot com. As

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of this recording, there are about
fifty tickets left. I'm limiting it to

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one hundred attendees. Oh wow,
and right now about half the tickets have

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sold. Okay, good to know. So I'm kind of wondering too,

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and this is turning into more of
an interview about what you're doing. But

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it's it's very fascinating to me.
So, you know you have code with

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Jason, you know, I think
I've seen you do like weekly. I

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don't know coaching calls or ask me
anything kind of calls at some point in

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the past. I don't know if
you still do those. I do.

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You know, you've got the you
know, the projects that you've mentioned.

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Is there some overall direction you're trying
to get to. Is there some you

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know, outcome or mission that you're
on or is it just oh, well,

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that and that looks great. I
have a brain disease that drives me

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to do all these things and take
on way too many projects. So that's

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that's part of it, you know. I think during these these a couple

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of decades of the twenty twenties or
whatever, I'm noticing a lot of adults

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are discovering they have ADHD and and
maybe other neurodivergence. And I think I

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got something like that going on.
And so, if we're being truthful,

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that's where a lot of this comes
from. But also I am trying to

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build a good career for myself,
and all these things like podcasts, bogging,

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speaking at conferences, all that stuff. I believe those things will directly

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or indirectly attract client work for consulting
or you know I mentioned books, that

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stuff helps sell my books and stuff
like that, and so I do that,

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but then they're intrinsically rewarding. Also, I really enjoy meeting people.

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That's why I do those those calls. I have a page dear Listener on

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my website that's like, I think
it's just titled let's talk, and you

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can go and fill out that form
and we'll have a call and get to

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know each other just for no particular
reason, just because I like to meet

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people. And you know, you
never know. Sometimes you meet somebody with

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no particular expectation. Then five years
later they help you get hired for some

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big project or something like that.
So there's the intrinsic, wholesome reasons and

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then there's like the selfish, completely
commerce driven reasons also, and it's both

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at the same time. Yeah.
My experience though, is that you know

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the person that's going to help you
find that job five years down the line

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after you meet them, it's because
you built a real relationship. It's not

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because you were mercenary about it.
So's yeah, there's this quote that I

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love. Sorry to interrupt, there's
this quote that I love from Benjamin Franklin.

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It'll take me a minute to retrieve
it from memory. Let's see if

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rascals knew the advantages of virtue,
they would become honest men out of rascality.

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Oh interesting, I like that.
Hey, how can I greedily make

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as much money as possible? Oh? It turns out the way to do

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that is just to be like a
genuinely good person and help other people.

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Okay, I'll do that, but
I only do it out of rascality,

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right. I think zig Ziglar was
the one that said you can get anything

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you want if you help other people
get what they want, right exactly,

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And yeah, yeah, so that's
the exact mindset that I look at it

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with. Very cool. So you
have any anything coming up that you want

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people to know about other than Sin
City Ruby, Yeah, so I send

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a monthly newsletter. I don't know
if you know about this, Chuck,

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a monthly snail mail newsletter. You'll
actually get a letter delivered to your house.

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I've been doing that since May of
twenty twenty three, so coming up

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on well, it's about nine months
I've been doing it so far, and

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that's been great. I send it
to like forty countries around the world,

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So if you're not located in the
US, some people ask, can I

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get it in Pakistan or Bulgaria or
whatever I am. Yeah, you can,

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So if anybody is interested in that, you can go to Code with

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Jason dot com. And I'm currently
on what I call the Code with Jason

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World Tour. I'm doing this just
to meet people, meet people all over

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the world wherever I can get to. So far, it's been not really

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a world tour but a Midwest United
States tour. I've in Chicago and Detroit

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and a couple other places. But
I'm planning a rails testing workshop to happen

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in Paris this coming spring. Oh
yeah, as we record this, it's

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twenty twenty four for any listeners of
the future. Yeah, so Paris is

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actually really inexpensive to get to.
You can get there from Chicago, for

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example, for like five hundred bucks. I never knew this until like a

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year ago. So it's actually cheaper
for me to go do a workshop in

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Paris than like San Francisco or something
like that, all things considered. And

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plus I've been to Paris before and
I really want to go back, and

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so that's that's part of why I
chose that too. But dear listener,

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if you're located in Paris, or
if you want to go to Paris,

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which I highly recommend. I'm doing
a workshop there and should be May.

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I'm still working out the exact date, but May of this year. Very

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cool. Yeah, I know there's
a direct flight from Salt Lake to Paris

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as well. And okay, you
know, yeah, I think the round

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trip depending on how you swing it. I just typed it into kayak dot

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com. I think I put in
the dates for Ruby Kaygi because I was

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talking to Jeremy Evans when I put
those dates in. But yeah, I

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can do a round trip for nine
hundred bucks. Nice. So yeah,

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it's really not bad. So that's
not a direct flight and yeah, but

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it's yeah, that's not bad at
all. Yeah. Yeah, so there's

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that. There's of course, since
City Ruby, which happens pretty close to

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now. It's like six weeks or
whatever. I'm not good at at times

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that way, But it's February seventh
right now. Happens in March twenty first

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and twenty second, okay, and
then if you hear this too late,

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dear listener, there'll be another one
in twenty twenty five around the same awesome.

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Yeah, yeah, and then I
always have a ton of stuff going

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on. Oh, I do an
online meet up twice a week, and

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I offer free mentorship to anybody who
wants it. It usually around testing related

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stuff, although other things too,
and if you're interested in getting in on

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that. Everything I do is listed
at code Withthjason dot Com, and I

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publish all my videos to YouTube also, so every time I do one of

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these meetups, which again is twice
a week, I publish a recording to

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YouTube. So I'm accumulating a collection
of educational content on YouTube, mainly where

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I pair with somebody and we work
through some kind of programming problem together.

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Very cool. Well, I'm just
gonna let it lie there. Let let

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people go check it out. Coding
with Jason dot is, coding with Jason

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dot com or with Jason dot com
coswith Jason dot Com. So anyway,

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folks, go check that out.
Sounds like everything you want if you want

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to connect with Jason is there.
And uh yeah, we'll wrap this up

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until next time. Max out,
folks,