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To some degree. We're all wrong
right to some degree that no matter what

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you believe about the world, you're
going to need to leave space to change

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that belief because we're always getting new
information. The world is always changing,

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interpretations are always changing, and new
evidence presents itself. So we want to

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make sure we're leaving space for that, because to be really dogmatic in a

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particular position, to hold that dogmatism
makes you inflexible, It makes you unwilling

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to truly listen to what other people
are saying. The Bible doesn't say a

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lot about nepheline, but this is
in Genesis chapter six, when people began

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to multiply on the face of the
ground, and daughters were born to them.

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The sons of God saw that they
were fair, and they took wives

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for themselves, of all that they
chose. Then the Lord said, my

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spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh. Their days

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shall be one hundred twenty years.
The Nethelem were on the earth in those

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days, and also afterward, when
the sons of God went into the daughters

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of humans who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of

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old warriors of Renown. As I
was riding along the road on my mule,

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I suddenly noticed a very strange person
walking beside me. His head was

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about even with my shoulders as I
sat in my saddle. He wore no

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clothing but was covered with hair.
His skin was very dark. I asked

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him where he dwelt, and he
replied that he had no home, and

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that he was a wanderer in the
earth and traveled to and fro. He

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said he was a very miserable creature, and his mission was to destroy the

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souls of men. I'd like to
welcome Nathan to Bigfoot Crossroads. We're going

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to talk about an aspect of Bigfoot, and the unexplained that it's something that

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interested me for a long time.
You certainly hear a lot about it.

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It's kind of a certain I guess, a belief system at this point whenever

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it comes to these subjects, especially
in regards to Bigfoot. But we're going

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to finally talk about the idea of
Bigfoot being Nephelim from the Bible or possibly

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demonic in nature. Nathan, first
of all, welcome to Bigfoot Crossroads.

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Thanks for joining me. Great to
be here. Matt looking forward to this

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I've had it on my calendar for
a while and I just can't wait to

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get into it. Yeah. So
I met you through a mutual friend,

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DJ, who's also been on the
show. You co host a podcast with

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him called Calling All Beans Where,
And that's beans as in beans, not

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beans as in what you put in
Chile For anyone that if you make a

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good silly though, we're all about
it. Bring it. Yeah, sure,

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Calling All Beans. But you guys, what I thought was a UFO

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podcast is really much more than a
UFO podcast. Would you mind just telling

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people what that podcast is about a
little bit? Yeah? Absolutely. So

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we've been doing Calling All Beans now
for years. And DJ and I met

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really kind of by accident. He
used to do podcasting focused on the NBA

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and MMA. I had never podcasted
before it all, but I had a

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strong interest in the UFO phenomenon,
and so through just a series of random

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accidents, we got connected to each
other and decided to create a podcast together.

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And we wanted to have a space
where we could talk about UFOs,

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talk about the paranormal, talk about
Bigfoot, talk about weird things that people

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experience in their life, and have
that be a space that can be comfortable

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and welcoming and validating and also thought
provoking. So we tried very hard to

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have a good time on the show, to make space for weird things and

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weird ideas. We bring on some
folks that neither he nor I necessarily always

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agree with, But the goal is
just to have an interesting conversation, and

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the best way to do that,
at least for us, was to do

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that through a podcast, particularly when
you live in a world now where we

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can easily connect with folks from everywhere
through these digital tools. So we're doing

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that and it has taken us into
some interesting territory, certainly not the traditional

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UFO only focused podcast. We're looking
at that wide range of phenomenological experience,

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and I think that's important because for
me these personally, if you can't have

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an approach to reality that tries to
incorporate or make sense of the weird things

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that are happening in human experience,
then you're just by default you're leaving something

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out. So we're trying not to
leave something out. We're trying to have

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a cast a wide net and try
to make sense of that. And it's

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difficult, particularly if you want to
sort of pigeonhole everything into one theory,

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which we try hard not to do. So we're kind of doing a wide

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collection and fun talking about it and
leaving space for different theories, different ideas,

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different guests. It's a fun format
and we're really kind of just getting

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started, even though we really we
just finished our one hundred and second episode.

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Yeah, congratulations on reaching that one
hundredth episode milestone and just cruising right

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on by it. Yeah. Thanks. You know, I've spent some time

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sitting in with you guys on the
podcast, and it was an amazing experience

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for me, first off, being
able to kind of put my feet up

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and relax a bit whenever I'm on
a podcast. Don't get to do that

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much whenever you're hosting. But you
guys really do a fantastic job of keeping

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an open dialogue and allowing people to
express their beliefs and their theories and their

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opinions without making them feel defensive or
challenged by expressing those things. And that's

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very difficult to do because these topics
can be very personal, I think,

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to people, and because of that, they form their own opinions and theories

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and their own beliefs, and they
get kind of caught in that rut of

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just staying in that lane and putting
those blinders on and in turn a lot

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of times get angry whenever somebody challenges
that. But on your show, like

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I said, you do a great
job of having that open dialogue where people

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don't get into those areas and get
the feelings hurt and turn it into a

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brawl on air like it happens a
lot of times in other areas. Yeah,

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I appreciate that we do try hard
to do that. It's not easy

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all the time. Sometimes you have
to kind of small mile through it if

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you're hearing something that you strongly disagree
with. And that's not to say that

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we're not willing to have a constructive
dialogue about it. I think we are

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willing to do that. But there's
a recognition that we have anyway that to

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some degree we're all wrong right to
some degree, that no matter what you

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believe about the world, you're going
to need to leave space to change that

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belief because we're always getting new information
where the world is always changing, interpretations

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are always changing, and new evidence
presents itself. So we want to make

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sure we're leaving space for that,
because to be really dogmatic in a particular

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position. At least, this is
my position to hold that dogmatism makes you

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inflexible, it makes you unwilling to
truly listen to what other people are saying.

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And that's something that we're really lacking
a lot of in the world today,

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listening. We're really wanting to get
our points in and not listen to

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what others are saying. So we're
trying hard to do that, to listen

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first and get into a dialogue and
hopefully grow in that process of exchange.

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So DJ found me through the Bigfoot
World, listening to the podcast and just

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being DJ and not being Batchel at
all and just reaching out and talking to

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him. Now, if I remember
correctly, DJ actually got into bigfoot stuff

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because of you. That's right,
So I apologize, Yeah, thanks for

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unleashing him on the Bigfoot world.
Of course the nature. But you know,

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it wouldn't be fair of me to
do a Bigfoot podcast without asking why

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the interest in bigfoot on your part. That's a really good question. It's

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something a lot like UFOs in the
sense that it's something I had a lifelong

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interest in. Certainly as a young
person, I was fascinated by stories about

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Bigfoot. I've not had a bigfoot
experience myself. I've been camping, been

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out in the wilderness, never had
something happen that I could kind of put

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into that bucket. But I was
fascinated by these stories that were shared in

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my childhood, both in literature that
i'd pick up from the school library and

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also on TV. You know that
those episodes that we all kind of grew

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up with of mysterious things that had
been reported in the world, and I

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kind of did what a lot of
people do. You know, you have

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that fascination, you put it kind
of back on the shelf as you get

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a little bit older, unless you
have a personal experience with it. That's

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kind of where it stays. Well
getting into UFOs for me, some correlation

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here is that I take very seriously
what people say, and doesn't mean I

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take it at face value, but
I do take it seriously. And when

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I know people who've had experiences,
whether they've had an experience of something strange

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in the sky or strange beside their
bed, or strange in the forest,

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and I know these people personally and
I know their character, their history,

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I take it very seriously. I
think you have to there was certainly a

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time in my life where I didn't
do that, and I would kind of

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brush it off. And I think
we're all pretty good about brushing off things

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that sort of fall outside that consensus
reality that we all share. You know,

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that doesn't make sense for me.
Nobody that I know has that experience,

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so therefore it cannot be true,
or I'm just ignore what you just

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said. That's kind of what we
typically do, right, But I had

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someone that shared experience with me,
a very profound one that he had had,

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and I couldn't ignore it. And
he then sent me an episode.

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I forget exactly which one it was
or what show was on, but it

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was about the vocalizations. It was
about the man who had the training in

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languages and listening to these vocalizations.
And I'm sure you know what I'm talking

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about. Your listeners probably do as
well. I mean, it was absolutely

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riveting to me just listening to that
content. And so I was in the

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airport when I was listening to this
episode, coming back from a trip,

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and I sent that to DJ and
you got to listen to this man.

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This is this is a tense and
he has caught the bug even bigger than

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I had it man. He as
you know, he is bigfoot all the

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way gassed down. He's very into
it. Yeah, for sure, contacts

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me several times a week to have
me either listen to something or ask me

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about someone or a story, get
my take on it, you know which

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geez, I feel like the bitter
old man sometimes, you know, having

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been involved in this for so long, and you know, you build up

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pretty strong callouses whenever it comes to
anecdotal stories and podcast episodes, and it's

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just like I don't always give him
the opinion that he wants to hear,

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which has led to some fantastic debates. But I'm glad that I've met DJ

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in a time of my life whenever
I have, because honestly, ten years

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ago, I would have just said, hey, you're an idiot. You

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don't know what you're talking about.
I know more than you. Shut up.

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Now, sometimes he does get me
to start thinking about things and looking

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at things from a different perspective and
kind of opens my eyes a bit.

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So it's nice to have people like
DJ take an interest in the subject who

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aren't viewing it, you know,
with just a negative angle all the time

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and allowing for conversations to take place. So I'm glad you introduced him to

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the topic. All kidding aside,
I'm glad he reached out to me.

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I've become very good friends with him. I consider you a friend. I

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feel very benefited by the introductions that
he has made in my life and the

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input he has added. But enough
about DJ Jeez, Yeah, exactly,

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He's so yeah. Whenever you're talking
about people being firm in their beliefs and

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not wanting to listen, and it
doesn't get anymore so than whenever it comes

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to religion. It's such a strong
topic for people, an emotional topic.

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It's to me, always been a
dangerous area to discuss openly. At least

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over the recent years, it has
started becoming more and more popular in the

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Bigfoot world. I even see comments
on my own episodes where I'm not talking

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about anything religious, I'm not proposing
anything, and I see in the comments

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sometimes people saying these things are demons
or these things are this, and just

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making these matter of fact statements.
And whenever it comes to that stuff.

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I do consider myself a Christian.
That's my own personal faith. I don't

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talk about it a lot on the
podcast, but I will be the first

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one to admit that whenever it comes
to specific things in the Bible and certain

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questions and things, a lot of
times my opinions don't line up with fellow

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questions in terms of interpretation and what
certain things mean. And so I thought

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it'd be a good idea to default
to someone like yourself. So, starting

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out, if you don't mind,
could you give a little bit of your

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background in terms of religious studies and
everything as it pertains to this subject matter

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and why I might have someone like
you on the podcast to talk about this.

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Sure, yeah, I'd be happy
to do that. So I grew

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up in a Christian family. My
father was a Baptist minister. So I

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like to joke that before I was
born, I was going to church Sundays

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and Wednesdays every week. And as
I grew up in that culture, being

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a fixture of the church and heavily
involved doing all the youth group activities and

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choir, and I was all in
in the church life. My dad,

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I mentioned he was a Baptist minister. How many folks realized that the Baptist

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tradition in the United States has kind
of a complex history, and in the

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late nineteen seventies. I guess this
was probably right around before I was born.

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There was a sort of schism in
the Baptist denomination in the US between

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kind of the more fundamentalist Baptists and
those who I guess would call themselves progressive

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Baptists or more liberal Baptist minded folks. Anyway, bring that up because my

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father, when he went to seminary
got his degree, is a PhD in

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New Testament, So he got his
degree from a Baptist institution. That institution

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was more firmly within the progressive liberal
perspective, and when this schism took place,

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the church really sort of fragmented.
The leadership changed within the denomination to

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more of that fundamentalist perspective, and
that was kind of a pretty sad moment

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in his life. And I think
from then on had to deal with the

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consequences of a Baptist community that not
always understood its past, but was wrestling

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with some of those issues below the
surface, sometimes on the surface. So

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I grew up in that context,
going to church regularly, but getting a

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very kind of academic perspective on the
faith. You know, my dad can

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read the Greek New Testament, so
I would always get interesting tidbits about well,

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in the Greek this is what it
means. It's a little bit more

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sort of robust than it is in
the English translation. And we'll get into

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some of that too, I think
when we talk about the nepheline. So

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that was my childhood. I went
to school, got it are in finance,

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totally unrelated to do religion, but
you know, very practical and if

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I I should have something that would
be useful in the world. But as

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I kind of got toward the end
of my college experience, I really felt

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like I needed to understand my faith
in a deeper way. I felt if

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you're a Christian, I felt called
to pursue that further. So I went

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to seminary after I finished my undergraduate
So I went to a Baptist seminary in

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Georgia, but a progressive Baptist seminary, and my professors were in some cases

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colleagues of my father who went to
the same schools that he went to,

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and even some of his own professors
were teaching me. So it was a

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small seminary and we got that kind
of education and I really enjoyed it.

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I love talking about religion, theology, ideas philosophy. But I realized pretty

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early on into that experience that the
Christianity that that I thought was so important

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to me was kind of one aspect
of a larger picture. When you study

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Christian theology, you realize that what
these theologians are doing over the centuries is

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they're taking the world that they live
in and the world that they were born

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in, and they're trying to bring
the Christian text into that world and really

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translate it in a way that the
world of their day can understand. So

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these theologies, some of which if
you are a Christian believer, no matter

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what church you go to or denomination
you go to, you have a theological

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perspective that is influenced by these thinkers
in the past. And a lot of

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people don't think that. They think, oh, well, no, no,

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that's not true. I just I
just look at the Bible and that's

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my theology. But the reality is
there is very much a cultural, you

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know, sort of lensing happening between
you and the text, and that's something

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that we cannot really escape. We're
going to try, and many people try

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it through various different means and methods, but that is truly inescapable, So

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we're bringing ourself into the conversation with
that material. That's just what we do.

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So I left the church behind.
It wasn't something that I felt like

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I needed to continue to pursue and
just got a normal career, which I've

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had now for quite some time,
almost twenty years. And oddly enough,

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the UFO topic has kind of brought
me back into and helped me sort of

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reclaim or redeem aspects of my religious
upbringing. I don't consider to myself to

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be Christian now, but I do
absolutely make more room for Christianity and the

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perspective of Christianity in my worldview.
So my history is a little bit complex

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there. I wouldn't call myself a
believer in the traditional sense, but I

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also acknowledge that there are aspects of
Christian belief that I believe are quite true.

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So again, all part of that
larger story which we're all trying to

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figure out. My introduction to this
theory or belief, whatever you want to

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call it behind Bigfoot being one of
these biblical entities was a story that I

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heard very early on. It was
actually the Mormon Church that started this belief,

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believe it or not, and I
actually found the story, so let

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me read that real fast. It
comes from a church apostible by the name

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of David Patten when he described an
encounter he had with Cain in eighteen thirty

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five, so that's a long time
ago, especially for bigfoot information. As

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I was riding along the road on
my mule, I suddenly noticed a very

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strange person walking beside me. His
head was about even with my shoulders as

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I sat in my saddle. He
wore no clothing but was covered with hair.

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His skin was very dark. I
asked him where he dwelt, and

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he replied that he had no home, and that he was a wanderer in

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the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable

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creature and his mission was to destroy
the souls of men. So this apostle

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is talking about Cain based on his
belief and everything. And this entry was

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included in Spencer W. Kimball's The
Miracle of Forgiveness, which was originally published

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in nineteen sixty nine. So here's
where it gets interesting. In nineteen eighty

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there were actually sightings of Bigfoot reported
in South Weber, Utah. So basically,

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the Mormons the Mormon community in Utah
at the time of those sightings in

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nineteen eighty made the connection between Bigfoot
and the description of Bigfoot to what this

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apossible apostle described as his meeting with
Cain, and thus the idea of Bigfoot

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being Cain, Bigfoot being included in
the Bible Bigfoot being evil was born.

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The Mormon Church definitely wanted a way
to say, oh, well, Satan

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is doing this, Satan is behind
this, He's coming after us, So

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that means we're doing something right.
That means our you know, religion is

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confirmed based on the actions of Satan. So that's actually where it came from,

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a story from an apostle in eighteen
thirty five. In the Mormon Church,

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it was just a story, you
know. It was an interesting one,

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but it didn't have any traction.
Really, I never heard anyone talking

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about it or anything until I would
say, within the past five years or

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so, it has become a very
popular belief that Bigfoot are biblical and evil

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in nature. So my first question
in regards to Bigfoot being nehlem, nepheline,

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whatever the correct pronunciation, is what
does the Bible actually say about them?

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Like, is this something that like, does the descriptions actually match Bigfoot

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in your opinion? Well, no, the Bible doesn't say a lot about

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Nephiline. They're not mentioned often in
the Bible. But I do have some

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passages that I think we should read
and get into a little bit related to

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the mention of the nephileine. But
in no example I'm about to read,

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are they described as covered in hair? And even the link between these Nephileine

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and Caine is a little bit tenuous
at best. I also find it interesting

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that in the Apostles story that you
shared, it's a very it's a very

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sort of like just kind of not
cordial, but you know, calm conversation

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is happening with this being on the
side of the road who's apparently meant to

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torment human beings. So not a
lot of tormenting happening there, just more

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of a conversation, but nevertheless of
fascinating, fascinating account. So why don't

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I start with the first instance of
where the nepheleem are mentioned in the Bible,

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And that's in the Book of Genesis, so very early on those of

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who don't know, that's the first
book that's Genesis. It's the very first

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one. So this is in Genesis
chapter six, and I'm going to read

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the first four verses of this chapter, and the translation that I'm using is

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00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,359
the new Revised Standard version, so
those of you who care about those things,

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all right. So it starts when
people began to multiply on the face

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of the ground, and daughters were
born to them. The sons of God

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saw that they were fair, and
they took wives for themselves, of all

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that they chose. Then the Lord
said, my spirit shall not abide in

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mortals forever, for they are flesh. Their days shall be one hundred twenty

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years. The Nephalim were on the
earth in those days, and also afterward

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when the sons of God went into
the daughters of humans who bore children to

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them. These were the heroes that
were of old warriors of renown, all

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right. So there's a lot to
unpack in that little passage there, and

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there's some I think fairly clear ambiguity. You kind of put those two words

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together. It's not clear which what
the Nephalm actually are in this passage.

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So we know that it mentions the
Nephalim were on the earth in those days,

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and this was by the way,
right before the flood happened. This

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was right before Noah was building the
Ark and the flood came along the the

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in that passage, so they were
on the earth. They're on the earth

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in those days and afterward. But
separately, it says when the sons of

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God went into the daughters of humans
who bore children to them. So it's

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not necessarily clear that the nephalim are
also these sons of God who went and

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had children with the daughters of humans. Right, So there's a little bit

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of it's not clear there. Some
people like to make those two things the

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same, right, but if you
really look at it, it's not entirely

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clear. Then it says these were
the heroes that were of old warriors of

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renown, so so that that phrase
seems to be related to the children who

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were born to the women and the
sons of God, not necessarily to these

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nephiline. So again, these nephiline
kind of stand on their own to some

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degree. So that's the first passage. Before you get to the second one,

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I want to talk a little bit
about the word nephilim and how it's

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00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:11,359
sort of translated or understood. So
it's a Hebrew word. And when it

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was when the when the Hebrew text
was translated into Greek. This happened in

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00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:22,359
the some people think the third second
century, before Christ, so before the

324
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,640
Common Era, if you don't use
a different way of saying it. And

325
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:32,119
the reason why the Bible was translated
into Greek at that time is that the

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00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,920
rulers of the day, you know, they decided they wanted to have this

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text, but they wanted to have
it in the language that they could read.

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Hebrew was not a widely used language
at that time. It was a

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Greek sort of cultural world at that
point, and the phrase of that is

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Hellenism. So Hellenism was sort of
the culture of the region of the world,

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and if you're in that region,
you're sort of steeped in Greek culture

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00:30:59,799 --> 00:31:04,799
in various different ways, even if
you come from other traditions that aren't at

333
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:11,039
their beginning Greek in nature. So
Greek ways of thinking, Greek philosophy,

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00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:19,960
Greek mythology permeates all these aspects of
culture in that Mediterranean basin where these things

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00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,400
are happening. And so the ruler
of the day apparently decided to gather up

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00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:32,680
these Hebrew scholars, these Hebrew elders, and the saying is that he basically

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00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:41,400
got six scholars from the twelve tribes
of Israel, so seventy two Hebrew scholars

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00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,880
who could translate into Greek into coin
a Greek, which is the common Greek

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00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,279
that was used at the time,
and he just sort of asked them all

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to create translations of the Hebrew text, and he asked them to do this

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sort of separately. And so the
mythology here is they are all doing this

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00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,319
separately, and they all kind of
came to similar translations. Why do I

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00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:06,759
bring all that up? I bring
that up because the the the word nethylene

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and Hebrew tends to have a connotation
of fallen or fallen ones or causing causing

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00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,160
ones to fall. So it's interesting
there's a fall component with that word.

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00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:23,839
But when they did the translation into
Greek, they're there again. They're thinking

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about that Hellenistic culture I just mentioned. And the only thing that they could

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00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:36,240
kind of come up with as a
parallel to this fallen notion is sort of

349
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this idea of giants these uh you
know in Greek and mythology, you know,

350
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,160
you've got these kinds of titans and
giants. And that's the sort of

351
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:52,559
parallel that was made then between nethhyaline
being fallen and nethylene being giants. Right,

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So that and that that kind of
stook a little bit, and obviously

353
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,559
we're still talking about it because it
did. There's that giant connotation there.

354
00:32:59,799 --> 00:33:04,519
I mean, how many stories in
Greek mythology do you have where you know,

355
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,839
a god basically mated with a human
and produced you know, this half

356
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,720
hybrid offspring that was some sort of
you know, warrior hero or you know,

357
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,160
exceptionally strong, you know, things
like that. The parallels between the

358
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:30,039
two are really kind of fascinating,
exactly, And I think that's the interesting

359
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:35,599
thing. We should come back to
that, because that is something that we're

360
00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:40,039
still talking about today, this sort
of hybridized quality, right right. So

361
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the other passage I want to read
is from the Book of Numbers. This

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is really the only place it's mentioned
in the Bible outside of some other non

363
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canonical texts of the Bible. So
number chapter thirteen. This is where Moses

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00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:04,880
is basically just deciding to send out
some spies into the land of Canaan because

365
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,319
he's all these people. Remember he
took all these people out of Egypt.

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He's going to get them somewhere.
So He's like, all right, go

367
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scout out this land of Canaan,
and let's see if maybe this is a

368
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:19,679
good place for us to go.
So these spies go out there and they

369
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,079
gather intelligence. They come back and
they talk to Moses, and they kind

370
00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:29,960
of share what they have learned.
And so what they say this is numbers,

371
00:34:30,079 --> 00:34:34,280
chapter thirteen, verse twenty seven.
So and they reported to him and

372
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,079
said, we came to the land
to which you sent us. It flows

373
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:39,719
with milk and honey, and this
is its fruit. Get The people who

374
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:45,800
live in the land are strong,
and the towns are fortified and very large.

375
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,719
And besides, we saw the descendants
of a knock there. The Amalekites

376
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live in the land of the Negeb, the Hittites, the Jebusites, and

377
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the Amorites live in the hill country, and the Canaanites live by the sea

378
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:02,559
and along the Jordan. But Caleb
quite of the people for Moses, and

379
00:35:02,599 --> 00:35:07,679
said, let us go up at
once and occupy it, for we are

380
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,400
well able to overcome it. So
Caleb's like, we can do this whatever.

381
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,199
Then the men had gone up with
him and said we're not able to

382
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,679
go up against these people, for
they are stronger than we. And so

383
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,559
they brought back this kind of unfavorable
report of the land that they spied,

384
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:28,119
saying that the land that we have
gone through as spies is a land that

385
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,119
devours its inhabitants, and all the
people that we saw in it are of

386
00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:37,519
great size. There we saw the
Nephalim, and in parentheses it says the

387
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:44,760
Anakites come from the Nephalm, and
to ourselves we seemed like grasshoppers, and

388
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,000
so we seemed to them. So
that's a long passage, but just essentially

389
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,320
to say they went up, they
looked around, they saw these giant people

390
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:58,719
kind of with well fortified towns and
whatnot, and they gave a report back

391
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,159
to Moses saying, we're not sure
we can take this land. We're really

392
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small by comparison to who they are
and the nepheleemer mentioned in this passage.

393
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,239
How would we even get to that
point? Yeah? How do you get

394
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,199
from there to Bigfoot? Right?
I think it's a it's a bit of

395
00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:22,440
a stretch to say that. I
mean, all we really have here are

396
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,199
our giant, you know, beings
of giant size, but this is where

397
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,960
this is where it really gets interesting
to me. As I started looking into

398
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,360
this more, I think there are
tie into what we're seeing in the world

399
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,480
today as well. And what I
want to sort of throw out here as

400
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:44,519
an umbrella to think about this is
that we are still wrestling with the mysterious

401
00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:49,960
past of of of humanity. So
the world we live in today, both

402
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,159
the world that we know and the
world that the people of the Bible knew.

403
00:36:53,960 --> 00:37:00,519
The world that preceded them and preceded
us had a lot of mystery in

404
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:05,440
it that was lost to time that
they didn't understand, and just as we

405
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:09,519
don't understand. So I find this
interesting because this is a connection point between

406
00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:14,440
us and the people of the time
of the Bible as well. And what

407
00:37:14,519 --> 00:37:21,199
I'm getting to here is that there
were ancient megalithic structures throughout the world.

408
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,039
I mean, we're all familiar with
these, and they're the subject of how

409
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:30,079
many shows on the History Channel or
whatever. These ancient megalithic structures that were

410
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,599
still puzzled by to this day.
Well, they were puzzled by them as

411
00:37:32,599 --> 00:37:39,079
well. And what's the most logical
thing you would conclude if you saw megalithic

412
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:45,199
structures or remnants of megalithic structures in
the land. You would think, well,

413
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:51,400
I mean I can't lift this,
so therefore something bigger than me but

414
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,880
like me, would have lifted this
and or created this, right, So

415
00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:00,960
right then you have an instant well, these must be the giants that did

416
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:06,119
whatever, you know, that created
these things. To me, it seems

417
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:14,320
like a lot of people that talk
about this particular belief system in terms of

418
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:22,280
Bigfoot take a lot of liberties and
freedoms with the interpretations. And one of

419
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:29,760
the main problems I have is the
story of the flood. Is there anything

420
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:37,480
to say that if Bigfoot are the
Nephelene, they would have survived the flood?

421
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,599
I know that in Genesis it says, you know they were there then

422
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,239
and after. Is it talking about
after the flood? I think it is.

423
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,800
I think that in those days,
and when we look at that passage

424
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,960
the earth in those days and then
also afterward, it's really foreshadowing that that

425
00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:01,119
flood is. You know, it's
on the way in the in the passage

426
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:07,519
later on in the in the in
the book, So yes, there is

427
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:14,599
a hint that these beings, these
Nepheline these fallen ones are on the earth

428
00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:19,159
in some capacity, and you know, you bring up the flood story.

429
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,000
That's a common part of most of
the major myths in human history, is

430
00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:27,559
a flood of some kind, you
know. I was taught that that was

431
00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:32,639
you know, more mythological, less
literal, or if there was a flood,

432
00:39:32,679 --> 00:39:37,320
it wasn't global in nature. It
was I don't know, some sort

433
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,480
of localized blood that just impacted that
region. The older that I've gotten,

434
00:39:42,519 --> 00:39:45,320
the more that I've had experience and
looked at these other stories, the more

435
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,920
I tend to think that, you
know, there was some catastrophic flood that

436
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:57,159
occurred, and that it got recorded
in human history by the survivors. I

437
00:39:57,159 --> 00:40:02,760
don't know that the survivors were just
descendants of Noah. I think that might

438
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:08,320
be a little bit of a stretch, but clearly this event left an imprint

439
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,920
on humanity, and we see it, we see the signs of that in

440
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:21,960
all of these different traditions. I'm
particularly interested in this fallen concept, you

441
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:31,039
know, because there's also ideas that
the Nephelim are sort of fallen angels,

442
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:38,119
or the progeny of fallen angels having
intermarried or having children with human women.

443
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:45,639
So there's some evidence in for example, the Book of Enoch that is not

444
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:51,119
in the Bible, it's not in
the canon, but there's mentioned in the

445
00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:53,519
Book of Enoch that fallen angels,
you know, had children with women,

446
00:40:53,559 --> 00:41:01,079
and you know these were potentially these
you know, hybrid beings. And you

447
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:05,639
talked about hybrids before, so here
we had that concept coming up again.

448
00:41:06,119 --> 00:41:08,480
But also what I mentioned just not
only when I talked about may Or,

449
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:14,360
I talk to the umbrella concept about
wrestling with our past. Our human past

450
00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:19,800
not only contains mysteries in terms of
structures, but there was a time in

451
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,400
our human history where we lived with
other kinds of humans, right, And

452
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:30,360
this is something that I think modern
humans typically just don't think very much about

453
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,599
because we're the only humans that are
here, right, But if you look

454
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,360
at history itself, there was a
time where you know, Homo sapien sapiens

455
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:47,719
lived alongside Neanderthals, lived alongside Denysovan's
other species of human. So if you

456
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:55,079
think about a lot of our mythology, it has these imprints of that complicated

457
00:41:55,159 --> 00:42:00,840
human family. And so you have
really strong beings, you have really small

458
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,239
beings, you have you know,
all these different sort of fate flavors,

459
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:10,840
varieties of humanoid beings. And that's
I think a remnant of this time in

460
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:16,119
our history or ancient history, where
we were really occupying the same space with

461
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:22,159
these other human species. Well,
they often say, whoever, when's the

462
00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:29,039
war gets the right history? Right? That's it. And obviously modern humans

463
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:37,119
survived, you know, we won
whenever it comes to those other types of

464
00:42:37,199 --> 00:42:42,920
humans. But it is interesting to
note that we do have all this folklore

465
00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:54,159
about other humanoid beings that might be
ways of people just talking about some of

466
00:42:54,199 --> 00:43:00,159
those other types of humans that once
existed, you know, whenever it come

467
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:08,440
to even bigfoot. Over the years
on this continent, at least, the

468
00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:16,639
descriptions of bigfoot have changed. Whenever
they were first being reported, the way

469
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:23,880
that they were reported were mostly as
wild humans, you know, wild men,

470
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:31,840
hairy men, things like that.
And then you had the global we'll

471
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:37,519
say, global discovery of the gorilla
and these other you know, as we

472
00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:43,760
started venturing farther out into the wilds
and discovering new animals and creatures, and

473
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,280
people started learning more about you know, great apes and primates and things like

474
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,199
that than the story of bigfoot sightings. The descriptions in the newspapers, and

475
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:58,840
everything started to match that and became
more of you know, this mystery great

476
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:05,360
ape. And then in the seventies
you get more and more science based for

477
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,519
the most part, and people start
pursuing this thing as some sort of undiscovered

478
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:19,880
primate. And now it seems to
be going back into a supernatural realm where

479
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:27,639
you have this biblical belief you have, you know, the paranormal bigfoot hopping

480
00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:34,239
through portals and cloaking itself and things
of that nature, psychic abilities. Do

481
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:40,440
you see a reflection of that in
religious texts over the years as it comes

482
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:47,039
forward? Is that par for the
course whenever it comes to people's beliefs,

483
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:58,079
Because I'm under my own opinion that
beliefs systems are oftentimes coping mechanisms in a

484
00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:02,880
sense, to try and explain something
that we don't have an explanation for.

485
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:10,400
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, No, I completely agree.

486
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:15,360
I think my perspective on it has
also changed a little bit, you know,

487
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:21,039
over my life as well. So
when I grew up, I was

488
00:45:21,199 --> 00:45:27,119
really looking at religion more purely from
an allegorical standpoint. So these are you

489
00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:30,360
know, these are stories that are
helping us understand larger truths. They're not

490
00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:37,519
themselves actual true things, right.
That's a very modern way of looking at

491
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:45,679
texts from the Bible or any mythological
tradition. These are just miss allegory stories,

492
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:52,000
right, They're not literal. But
there are certainly others and many others

493
00:45:52,079 --> 00:45:57,679
who do look at these as literal
things. And I never really shared that

494
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:05,920
particular perspective, in part because I
just sort of reflected on my own life

495
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:12,280
experience. Right. So if I
were to, you know, use some

496
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,800
of the idioms of the day,
and I were to put that into a

497
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:17,639
letter to you, and let's say
you were going to, you know,

498
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,960
have a podcast, and I was
saying, you know, Matt, good

499
00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:24,440
luck with that podcast, break a
leg or whatever. And then two hundred

500
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:28,480
years from now people were to look
at this document, you know, would

501
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:31,159
they think I'm asking you to break
your leg? I mean that they wouldn't

502
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:36,199
understand potentially what it is I'm saying
there. So, just like that,

503
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:43,000
as a simple example, that's happening
with these ancient texts as well. There's

504
00:46:43,079 --> 00:46:50,679
so much context around these stories that
really, quite frankly, is just lost

505
00:46:50,679 --> 00:46:57,400
to us. So we're doing the
best we can by taking our own experience

506
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,519
of life, both that and what
we know about history, which we just

507
00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:06,199
talked about is a little bit fuzzy, and we're we're bringing that to bear

508
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,880
on this material and hoping that we
can glean from that some truth to it.

509
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:16,000
Right. So, So, where
I'm at now in thinking about these

510
00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:22,119
things is that there's really a blended
quality to these to these texts, right.

511
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:25,880
So, Yes, there are aspects
of them that are allegorical. Yes,

512
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:31,400
there are also aspects of them that
are literal. It's it's really parsing

513
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:36,599
that between the two. That's that's
the challenge. And I think because it's

514
00:47:36,599 --> 00:47:42,559
so difficult, we have to be
willing to suspend our our judgment, our

515
00:47:42,599 --> 00:47:45,519
snap judgment into wanting to make it
one or the other. I think we

516
00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:50,239
have to sort of kind of loosely
hold both that, Yes, this could

517
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,039
be literally true, but it might
not be. Yes, this could be

518
00:47:52,079 --> 00:47:58,280
allegorically true, but it might be
literally true. So it's a challenge.

519
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:05,280
And certainly to your point, people's
beliefs and perspectives do change over the years.

520
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,280
And if you look at the history
in the in the Bible as the

521
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,599
Bible, and by the way,
wasn't one single document for most of its

522
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:20,559
history. But the understanding of the
world does change in the text itself as

523
00:48:20,599 --> 00:48:25,000
you move into the New Testament.
And we talked about Hellenism, that Greek

524
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:30,280
culture. It has a huge influence
on the New New Testament, and it's

525
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:35,000
written in the Greek language. But
if you look at the New Testament and

526
00:48:35,039 --> 00:48:37,880
look at it from that perspective,
you're going to see a lot of Greek

527
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:43,519
influence throughout the text, and that
changes the way you think about notions of

528
00:48:43,679 --> 00:48:46,719
what is God? You know,
what are demons? What our angels?

529
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:52,079
You know? What is the Messiah? What is the end of time?

530
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:57,599
So all of these things are going
to change based on that cultural reference point,

531
00:48:58,039 --> 00:49:01,079
but some of them might still will
be literally true, right, So

532
00:49:01,119 --> 00:49:05,440
that again, that's that weird suspension
we have to have. Is just not

533
00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:10,039
easy to do right. Cultural explanations, I think, play a huge part

534
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:17,360
in the language, and trying to
apply words of understanding to things that aren't

535
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:22,079
understood can cause a lot of this
stuff. And then, of course,

536
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:29,679
you know something that's been argued and
debated forever, you know, just languages

537
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:35,360
that don't translate properly, or opinions
on translation. I mean, just take

538
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,199
that passage about the spies, for
instance, I had read where you know,

539
00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:47,320
it's kind of interpreted as these spies
delivered bad information, as in,

540
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,800
this is bad news. And then
there's another interpretation that says, well,

541
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,480
this Hebrew word was used and it
actually means slander, so we believe that

542
00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:02,079
by bad we mean lies, that
it was untrue. So then you take

543
00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:07,880
that information, well, it's either
bad news because it was just bad news

544
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,079
that they didn't want to hear,
or it's bad news because it's lies and

545
00:50:10,119 --> 00:50:15,119
it's not true at all, and
there weren't actually giants seen by the spies.

546
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,679
But based on your own beliefs in
what you're choosing to believe about Bigfoot,

547
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,760
you could use either one of those
interpretations to support your own argument for

548
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:32,199
them either being these nepheline or not
being And I think a lot of times

549
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:38,199
that's done because just the idea of
I mean, we're doing a podcast about

550
00:50:38,199 --> 00:50:45,639
it right now. This nephiline have
become extremely popular in modern encryptid folklore,

551
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:52,440
and we're talking about there barely anything
even mentioned in the Bible. There's not

552
00:50:52,679 --> 00:51:00,400
really information out there about them,
and most of the information that I ran

553
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:04,519
across, you know, came from
the stories from the Book of Enoch,

554
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:10,599
and like you said, that's not
canon. So whenever it comes to biblical

555
00:51:10,639 --> 00:51:15,639
canon and you've got like the Book
of Enoch, how does it fit in?

556
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:22,760
And let's just go off the rails
for a second and say all of

557
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:28,119
this is actually true? You know, is this something like does the Catholic

558
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:34,239
Church really suppress and hide information and
you know, things of this nature.

559
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,519
Is that something that you believe that
they would actually do, and like,

560
00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:44,119
why would they do that? Like
it's often speculated as to you know,

561
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:49,519
the cover up of Bigfoot and UFOs
and everything done by the government, But

562
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,639
what if it's being covered up by
the church, And is that something the

563
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:55,840
church would do? And why?
Yeah? Well, I love the opinion

564
00:51:55,920 --> 00:52:05,000
that all official truths from whatever organization
you want to look at, whether that's

565
00:52:05,039 --> 00:52:10,280
the Church or the state, is
to a certain degree a kind of propaganda,

566
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:17,360
right, And and that's not necessarily
saying that it's done in an nefarious

567
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:22,840
way. I'm not saying there's some
secret council, you know, deciding,

568
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,559
hey, we want to tell everyone
that this is the truth when we know,

569
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,360
you know, as as secret keepers
we know it's something else. Entirely.

570
00:52:31,639 --> 00:52:37,280
I think it's it's a little bit
less sinister than that. I think

571
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:43,880
that we all have to wrestle with
the fact that when we're looking at the

572
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,679
world, we're born into a world
that we you know, we sort of

573
00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:51,679
stumble into and it functions in a
certain way, and when we're thinking about

574
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,280
how to explain it, we're going
to have to cut some corners. We're

575
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,960
going to have to say, you
know, I'm going to shave off this

576
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:00,719
piece of experience. I'm going to
shame off this piece, and I'm going

577
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:07,519
to create this crafted object that is
the truth, and we're going to kind

578
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:13,599
of ignore the fact that these outliers
don't really fit into fit with whatever that

579
00:53:13,639 --> 00:53:16,320
object happens to be. So I
think that the church and the state,

580
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:22,840
they've absolutely done this. I think
that they I don't believe that they've done

581
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:27,719
that necessarily in an evil, sinister
way. There's just a byproduct of how

582
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:35,440
we are in the world. And
unfortunately, because of things like you we

583
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,239
can talk about the pros and cons
of this, but because of things like

584
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:46,719
the written word, the printing press, we've placed a higher degree of importance

585
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:58,360
on written material than spoken oral tradition
kind of material, right. And that's

586
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:05,719
interesting too because in the ancient times
when writing wasn't everywhere, and writing to

587
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,199
write you had to be you had
to have means, you had to have

588
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:14,480
uh, you know, skill education, training, Like it's not something that

589
00:54:14,519 --> 00:54:20,599
everybody could could do and understand.
So the spoken word, the oral tradition

590
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:27,119
is much more prominent in ancient world
than it is for us today. And

591
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,639
what that means is that people had
to by very nature, like they had

592
00:54:31,679 --> 00:54:43,119
to have a deep ability to memorize
and to listen and to hold oral tradition

593
00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:49,199
in their mind at all times.
And we've actually kind of let that part

594
00:54:49,199 --> 00:54:52,880
of ourselves atrophy. Right, So
we marvel at people who can memorize,

595
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,559
you know, all these kinds of
things. Well, I think that the

596
00:54:55,639 --> 00:55:00,559
ancients were much better at that.
That they could they could listen to someone

597
00:55:00,599 --> 00:55:05,559
give a speech and they could hold
all that content in their head way better

598
00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:09,320
than you and I can. And
the person giving the speech also knows that

599
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:13,679
they can do that. So how
does that change the way that you're using

600
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,639
language? I mean, it changes
it quite a lot. Because we we

601
00:55:16,079 --> 00:55:19,599
with our written focus, we're going
to go back and go, oh,

602
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:22,440
here's a citation. You know here, you said this on this day,

603
00:55:22,559 --> 00:55:27,199
and therefore, you know, I'm
not going to let you get off the

604
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,480
hook on that because you said it
on that day. Whereas when you're doing

605
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,719
this in an oral tradition sense,
it's much more of a suspension and you're

606
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,079
you're playing with these ideas in a
more living way, a more kind of

607
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:45,280
active way than than this. What
we've taken is basically a very scientific approach

608
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,360
to language. You know, It's
it's something very exact, it's something very

609
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:53,119
quantifiable, precise, and interestingly enough, we brought that. You know,

610
00:55:53,119 --> 00:55:58,039
if you if you come from a
more of a a more of a fundamentalist

611
00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:02,559
perspective on the Bible, you're bringing
that kind of scientific perspective to the text

612
00:56:04,559 --> 00:56:07,920
more so than that, you know, sort of living document perspective. So

613
00:56:08,199 --> 00:56:14,239
it's it's just all very fascinating and
absolutely, you know, our perspective change

614
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:19,719
on these things. And if you're
having an experience of a bigfoot, you

615
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,000
kind of have a couple of choices, right, I Mean, one choice

616
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:30,079
is how do I fit this into
a worldview that I already have? Right?

617
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,239
Right? The other choice is how
do I fit this into a worldview

618
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,440
that I'm going to try and create, or I'm going to adopt that is

619
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:43,920
not what I have right now.
Those are the two primary choices, and

620
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,440
I think that's what we're seeing here
people that are proposing this nepoleine concept,

621
00:56:47,559 --> 00:56:53,199
you know, they're wanting to fit
it by any means necessary, into this

622
00:56:53,320 --> 00:57:00,360
biblical worldview, not necessarily willing to
adopt another one that might make better sense

623
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:07,880
of it. I totally agree with
that. I think that happens with pretty

624
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:15,239
much the majority of Bigfoot theories out
there. Is the experience someone has and

625
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:21,400
the way they interpret it is again
a coping mechanism to make it fit into

626
00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:27,679
their worldview and their belief systems that
already exist. And that's not to say

627
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:34,039
that anyone is right or wrong.
I'm certainly in no place to say that,

628
00:57:35,079 --> 00:57:38,039
no, this person's wrong and this
person's right, because I don't think

629
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:44,000
we know. I'm not sure we'll
ever know. But Nephiliam is not the

630
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:52,599
only Biblical thing that gets attributed to
Bigfoot demons. This is another thing that

631
00:57:52,639 --> 00:57:57,119
has come up time and time again
in Bigfoot is the idea that bigfoot are

632
00:57:57,119 --> 00:58:00,159
actually demons. And I know that
this is something thing that has started to

633
00:58:01,639 --> 00:58:07,559
play out a little bit in the
UFO world as well, aliens being demonic

634
00:58:07,679 --> 00:58:12,599
entities. What are your thoughts on
that? Yeah, that's a big one.

635
00:58:12,719 --> 00:58:16,159
Getting a lot of traction now,
I mean, a very similar thing

636
00:58:16,199 --> 00:58:24,360
is happening, right, So we're
taking experiences that occur at the fringes of

637
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:32,360
human perception and experience, things like
Bigfoot, like UFOs, alien beings,

638
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:39,079
whatever and sort these are things that
are not in common human experience, and

639
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:44,599
we're thinking, what is a you
know, what corollary can I think of

640
00:58:44,679 --> 00:58:52,639
here that that happens in that fringe, shadowy space that I can kind of

641
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,920
readily call And that's going to be
more often than not in the West anyway,

642
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,480
in some Eastern traditions as well.
The these demons, these are not

643
00:59:00,559 --> 00:59:07,199
things that occur in the light quote
unquote, They don't occur in you know,

644
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:13,800
waking experience. They occur in this
shadowy realm. You know that this

645
00:59:14,199 --> 00:59:16,079
We can use different words for that, you know, we can use subconscious,

646
00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:22,360
we can use uh, you know, sort of hell as this subsurface

647
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:27,320
world. You know, shield is
a word in the Bible that is this

648
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:34,840
subsurface world. Ah, these are
things happening below normal human experience, and

649
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,000
so I think it makes a lot
of sense while we would want to jump

650
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:46,800
to that because that's the only category
that is uh supernatural that kind of maps

651
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:52,519
into some of these fringe experiences.
So if it's not happening where I can

652
00:59:52,559 --> 00:59:57,679
easily see it, if it's not
willing to be seen and interact with us

653
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:02,079
in a in an obvious over way, that it must be by its very

654
01:00:02,239 --> 01:00:09,519
nature, sinister, dark, demonic, anti human. So I think that's

655
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:15,480
where we're going with this. And
what I would say is we need to

656
01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:23,000
work to examine that perspective. If
that's something that we are jumping to,

657
01:00:24,079 --> 01:00:29,800
so we need to work hard to
I think look at the evidence for that.

658
01:00:30,039 --> 01:00:34,320
You know, what are the actual
experiences that we're talking about that we're

659
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:37,559
mapping onto demons? You know,
are they actually if we look at those

660
01:00:37,599 --> 01:00:45,519
experiences themselves and the interactions that have
been reported about the experiences, are are

661
01:00:45,519 --> 01:00:51,719
there demonic qualities to those interactions?
And and here I'm not using the word

662
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,480
demonic in a literal sense, but
just in a is it anti human being?

663
01:00:55,519 --> 01:01:00,719
Is it? Is it a negative
experience? Right case, It's not

664
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:05,880
just going back to that first story
of the Apostle meeting Kane, who's like,

665
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:08,400
I'm here to destroy the souls of
men and carry on a decent conversation.

666
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:14,280
Exactly, it doesn't really make a
lot of sense. And I still,

667
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:20,159
you know, I remember getting so
frustrated whenever I was younger, because

668
01:01:21,159 --> 01:01:23,159
I don't know necessarily that it's anything
new, but it was new to me

669
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:31,920
the idea that there were Christians out
there who were trying to say that dinosaurs

670
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:39,360
were just acts of Satan. Dinosaur
fossils were just things created by Satan to

671
01:01:40,119 --> 01:01:44,679
make us think that dinosaurs used to
exist and they didn't actually ever exist.

672
01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:51,039
And I remember being so frustrated by
that because I'm just I'm one of those

673
01:01:51,079 --> 01:01:53,119
people who's just like, well,
I can see it, I can touch

674
01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:58,719
it. It's real, it exists, it's right here. But I think

675
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:05,880
a lot of people want to live
in one world, have this belief system,

676
01:02:06,679 --> 01:02:09,639
but well, how can I include
this other stuff that I'm interested in

677
01:02:09,679 --> 01:02:15,159
that you know, may kind of
question some of the things that I believe,

678
01:02:15,960 --> 01:02:20,800
And so they look for ways to
explain them and incorporate them, which

679
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,880
seems to be the ongoing theme.
And I think the belief that Bigfoot or

680
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:30,880
aliens or any of these things are
demons or demonic in nature is another way

681
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:36,639
of doing that, another way of
explaining it with an already existent belief system

682
01:02:36,679 --> 01:02:38,920
that you're not willing to stray away
from. But you still want to play

683
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:43,639
around in this pool too, you
know. Right, I was going to

684
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,719
ask, you know something that I
know you're constantly on top of and talking

685
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:53,760
about, you know, is the
government coming forward and acknowledging you know,

686
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:59,800
hey, aliens and UFOs are real. It's all over the news headlines and

687
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:06,480
anything. Do you think that's something
that the church and by the church,

688
01:03:06,599 --> 01:03:10,519
I guess I'm talking about the Catholic
Church. I assume that the Catholic Church

689
01:03:10,559 --> 01:03:17,280
is in charge of religion as we
know it. Is that something that you

690
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:22,199
ever think they will do? Do
you think they will come forward and make

691
01:03:22,239 --> 01:03:25,960
an official statement or address these things
that are happening? I mean I think

692
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:31,960
that they If the government does come
forward with a more clear statement on this,

693
01:03:32,119 --> 01:03:38,920
then absolutely the Catholic Church and other
church leaders will respond in kind.

694
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:49,440
And the question becomes is how do
they incorporate that information into their theological perspective?

695
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,280
The Catholic Church has already stated in
certain ways that you know, if

696
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:59,400
they are extraterrestrials or whatever, that
they can be baptized and they can be

697
01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:03,039
uh Christian just like a human being. And so they're they're they're you know,

698
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:11,599
interesting just to imagine the exactly you
know, I forget this new new

699
01:04:11,599 --> 01:04:15,360
culture here which is going to fit
you into ours. So it's they're making

700
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,079
space for that. And I think
you know, this gets to your point

701
01:04:19,199 --> 01:04:21,880
right that you just made about the
demons, and that's that, you know,

702
01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:29,719
how how flexible or inflexible is your
theological perspective, because if it's if

703
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,199
it's incredibly rigid, then what you're
going to do is you're going to say

704
01:04:34,199 --> 01:04:42,079
exactly what you pointed out, that
this new reality doesn't doesn't conform or fit

705
01:04:42,199 --> 01:04:45,840
with my perspective on the way the
world is and who God is and and

706
01:04:45,920 --> 01:04:50,159
all these things, and therefore it's
anti that. So what goes in the

707
01:04:50,199 --> 01:04:56,360
anti that bucket that's you know,
demons and Satan. You know, it

708
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,880
falls into that category, which by
the way, can be a very luck

709
01:05:00,119 --> 01:05:04,400
The bucket continues to grow the more
and the more things that we discover.

710
01:05:04,599 --> 01:05:09,039
You know, you brought up the
dinosaurs and things like that, Well that

711
01:05:09,199 --> 01:05:12,079
goes into the bucket. You know, you bring up things like other habitable

712
01:05:12,079 --> 01:05:15,159
worlds, well that might go into
the buckets as a deception. You know,

713
01:05:15,199 --> 01:05:18,000
maybe we're the only habitable world and
I'm believe in that stuff, So

714
01:05:18,039 --> 01:05:23,960
that goes into this bucket as well. So you can maintain that rigid perspective

715
01:05:24,239 --> 01:05:27,000
or you can make room for it. And I think that's really what we're

716
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,679
what I'm trying to get at here, is that we have this choice,

717
01:05:30,679 --> 01:05:39,719
this opportunity to make room for experiences
that occur in the world or to reject

718
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:44,880
them outright. And I get it. Rejecting them outright is in some ways

719
01:05:45,599 --> 01:05:50,000
easier because it doesn't you're not forced
to sort of work through the complexities of

720
01:05:50,079 --> 01:05:55,000
having to incorporate this experience. You're
just like keeping what you know and it's

721
01:05:55,039 --> 01:06:00,880
safe. But I would encourage folks
to try to do the opposite, you

722
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:03,920
know, to journey into that unknown
a little bit more, be a little

723
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:10,920
more flexible, and see what that
will reveal to you about your core beliefs.

724
01:06:11,599 --> 01:06:14,719
And if your core beliefs are still
strong, that's a good thing.

725
01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:16,440
Right. Ultimately, that's a good
thing. If your core beliefs change,

726
01:06:16,960 --> 01:06:18,760
well, that could be a good
thing as well. It could be very

727
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:25,639
transformative. I think that the religions
of the world have elements within them that

728
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:30,400
can easily adapt to this reality.
And religion, by the way, has

729
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:35,559
been adapting to reality every century.
The more that we know about the world,

730
01:06:35,639 --> 01:06:41,039
et cetera, et cetera, the
more these theologies change. I don't

731
01:06:41,039 --> 01:06:44,519
see that, you know, changing
at all, will continue to do do

732
01:06:44,639 --> 01:06:48,800
so these theologies will just incorporate whatever
this new reality is. But man,

733
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:53,559
it's going to get a lot more
complex if that happens. And I think

734
01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:57,400
it's going to cause a lot of
people to really have some dark knights of

735
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:01,840
the soul about what they believe,
because you don't find, uh, you

736
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:06,039
know, explicit mention of these things
in the religious text, at least in

737
01:07:06,039 --> 01:07:09,840
the way that we would want with
them to. And let's say they even

738
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,480
show us a being at some point, if we see an actual being,

739
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,920
man, won't that be a shock
to the system. So I don't know,

740
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:20,199
we live in interesting times, my
friend, we do. Have you

741
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:29,400
studied many other religions outside of Christianity
a little bit, so I've studied a

742
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:39,360
little bit of Hinduism, Buddhism,
let's see Shintoism, a little bit of

743
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:43,119
Islam, but not as much.
And I've studied some Judaism as well,

744
01:07:43,239 --> 01:07:47,079
so, but most of my study
has been in the Western religions. Do

745
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:54,039
similar items like the nepheleam and demons
and everything pop up in those texts as

746
01:07:54,039 --> 01:07:59,280
well that you've noticed, well,
yeah, in some in some respects,

747
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:05,639
so there are mentioned of giants in
Hindu In Hindu scripture, there are certainly

748
01:08:05,719 --> 01:08:11,679
lots of mentions of demons, uh, some of which could be construed to

749
01:08:11,719 --> 01:08:18,600
be similar to the nephelm concept in
these other traditions. In the Japanese religious

750
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:26,600
history, there's a lot of you
know, demonology there, but you know,

751
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:30,600
I don't know how explicit they are, and certainly with like the the

752
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:32,960
qualities of the bigfoot, you know, I think that's what's kind of lacking

753
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,000
in most of these accounts is like
that, you know, when we're talking

754
01:08:36,039 --> 01:08:41,239
about giants and other traditions, they're
usually like really really tall, like way

755
01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:45,159
taller than a nine foot big big
foot or whatever. And they're not talking

756
01:08:45,199 --> 01:08:49,119
about them being you know, crazy
hairy. You know, they're just talking

757
01:08:49,119 --> 01:08:55,840
about them being just giant beings.
So yeah, it's interesting, and the

758
01:08:55,880 --> 01:09:02,760
same thing goes in hand with the
demon belief system. A lot of the

759
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:09,119
properties that I understand about demons don't
really play out in like you were saying,

760
01:09:09,159 --> 01:09:13,399
in Bigfoot experiences. So it's kind
of a contradiction there and beliefs.

761
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:16,279
But I could be wrong. No, But I mean your point is really

762
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:21,960
really valid. I mean, if
we're talking about demonic I mean, they're

763
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:27,079
not very good demons if that's what
they are, right, They hide from

764
01:09:27,159 --> 01:09:30,199
us, they don't communicate. Yeah, and apparently whenever they do communicate,

765
01:09:30,199 --> 01:09:33,319
it's nice. So I don't know. Yeah, it doesn't really fit the

766
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,800
mold there. But you know what's
interesting about that too, though, is

767
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:43,920
that you know, people can also
say that things that are highly persuasive or

768
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:47,840
appear to be nice are actually not
right. So there's right. It's always

769
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:53,319
interesting how people kind of bucket their
experiences in terms of this is, you

770
01:09:53,359 --> 01:09:58,199
know, sort of angelic or godly
and this over here is demonic or satanic

771
01:09:58,319 --> 01:10:01,439
or evil? What are the lines
we're drawing there? And why are we

772
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:11,800
drawing them? Sometimes it's completely arbitrary. Yeah, I just saw a comment

773
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:20,000
the other day about a person who
was responding to somebody else had said something,

774
01:10:20,039 --> 01:10:25,880
and they were talking about again,
these things are evil. You know,

775
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:30,560
they try to lure children into the
woods so they can take them.

776
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:38,199
They you know, sexually assault livestock
and kill dogs, and they're just pure

777
01:10:38,279 --> 01:10:42,880
evil. And then you have on
the flip side of that, people making

778
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:47,479
comments about how you know they're friendly
forest giants. There are friends, they're

779
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:55,760
protectors of the earth. And then
again you have the Nepheline demonic belief system,

780
01:10:56,680 --> 01:11:02,840
and all of these different viewpoints come
in and just collide with one another

781
01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:09,680
constantly. And I don't it's not
just in the Bigfoot community. It's in

782
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:15,560
all these different aspects of the unknown. It just comes across as coping mechanisms.

783
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:18,319
That's the only I know. I
keep on saying that, but it's

784
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:25,279
the only thing that makes sense.
Not everybody can be right, not everybody

785
01:11:25,279 --> 01:11:29,279
can be wrong, And like you
were saying, nobody is going to be

786
01:11:29,359 --> 01:11:33,720
completely right about any of it,
and it's something that we really just have

787
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:41,199
no grasp of understanding right now.
Right So, again, the whole point

788
01:11:41,199 --> 01:11:45,960
of this conversation was not to tell
anybody that they're right or wrong that Bigfoot

789
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:50,920
aren't this, or Bigfoot aren't that. It's just to have an open discussion

790
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:58,359
about this particular train of thought and
belief system and kind of break it down.

791
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:02,039
So, Nathan, I preciate you
coming on and helping me do that

792
01:12:02,239 --> 01:12:08,960
with such a complicated, entangled up
subject as this. I truly truly appreciate

793
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,600
it, sir, My pleasure,
Matt. This is a ton of fun.

794
01:12:13,079 --> 01:12:16,119
I hope gets do again sometimes.
Yeah, for sure. If you

795
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:20,800
have encountered something you can't explain,
like Bigfoot or something else, email me

796
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:25,560
at Bigfoot Crossroads at gmail dot com. If you get a chance, check

797
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,600
out the website Bigfootcrossroads dot com.
You can find links to social media,

798
01:12:30,039 --> 01:12:33,359
past episodes, merchandise, everything you
need, all in one place. And

799
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:36,760
until next time, remember there's something
in the woods.