WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:56.000 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:40.280 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:53.799 --> 00:02:30.120 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:02:30.560 --> 00:03:09.639 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 5 00:03:12.080 --> 00:04:00.479 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 6 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:56.800 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 7 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:06.680 All right, what's up to all you dorks, all you nerds, all 8 00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:16.439 you players, pimps, hustlers. Welcome to another open forum. Back in 9 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:26.879 the saddle, back in my throne, back on my purple throne. I 10 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:34.560 got my espressos, I got my sassy attitude, and I got a bunch 11 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:43.560 of goofballs ready to go, a bunch of goobers. We took a two 12 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:46.040 week. It took two weeks to drive to Vegas and back. That was 13 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:50.800 longer than I thought. It was a little rough, but it was also 14 00:05:51.000 --> 00:06:00.839 fun and a lot of adventures old. In one adventure, we had a 15 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:08.199 nice three or four hour road debate. Uh and for some unexplained reason, 16 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:18.600 just like when Alex was on his spaces Elon's space Twitter space thing caused me 17 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:25.000 to have a bizarre lisp. I just want everybody to rest assured. I 18 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.560 did not suddenly turn into a skotls man. I do not have I do 19 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:34.680 not. I don't have a When you heard me get baking and dsh gywas 20 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:42.199 because of your telephone. It was not because I. I guess, no 21 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:48.480 worries. My beautiful golden baritone at all times. Voice is still here. 22 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:57.160 Ladies, don't worry. It's still there. It's not gone. Before I 23 00:06:57.199 --> 00:06:59.800 met Jamie, girls would say, I like your voice. You have a 24 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:04.319 great voice. I guess I'll take it. I thought maybe I have better 25 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:11.839 looking qualities elsewhere, such as my fabio hair, such as my amazing cap 26 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:17.279 muscles. Who knows, who knows, But I guess if voices all I 27 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.519 got, that's all I got. So that's why I can't let the voice 28 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:26.439 slide. I can't let people be thinking that I get up here and have 29 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:34.279 a lisp. Hell no, hell no. All right, before we get 30 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:42.360 into it and open it up, we'll have a little brief analysisization. Welcome 31 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.639 everybody. Look at that. We are already getting big numbers over here on 32 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:48.560 YouTube because I haven't strained. I ain't strained in a week strength in a 33 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:54.319 week. I ain't strengthed in what two weeks? But I did get to 34 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:59.399 post. By the way, many of the Perfect Guy Life sam Hi clips, 35 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.839 So if you didn't watch the PGL, many are saying it was the 36 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.439 best, their favorite PGL. Very glad to hear that. Excellent reviews. 37 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.040 Very cool beans. I know a couple of the One of the clips got 38 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:18.000 over two hundred thousand views over on dollar stream. That's good news. Anyway, 39 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:22.160 our Vegas event was a blast. I did multiple live performances. I'm 40 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.560 sure some of you noticed this. Let's see if I can pull up one 41 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.919 little clip before we get started. People didn't know what to expect. They 42 00:08:31.919 --> 00:08:37.159 didn't know. They didn't know that you get a live performance of at least 43 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:43.159 three songs. I would have done more songs, but my my Matt kept 44 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:48.200 freezing up, which was really bugging me. But what are we talking about. 45 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:54.080 We're talking about live performances of funk O Pop. Okay, right, 46 00:08:54.480 --> 00:09:28.320 you know what I mean. You know what I'm saying. Yes, you 47 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.399 did hear correctly. It was the majority of the audience clapping correct, yes, 48 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:39.799 correct, Not everyone. There were multiple boomers there who were mystified what 49 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:48.519 the heck, what's going on? Can y'all see me? Uh? Did 50 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:54.679 this looks like this thing out here froze or something? I think we're good? 51 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:58.879 Are we good? Are we good over here? Can y'all see me? 52 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:01.960 Okay, we're good? Yeah? I just hit Okay, we're good. 53 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:07.240 Yeah, no cap best performance all time exactly. Thank you. Shout 54 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:11.320 out to the people in the audience who know what's up for real. By 55 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.720 the way, there was multiple songs. I did Matthew McConaughey's song live. 56 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:26.240 I did Jordan Peterson rap song live. All of that. Thank you. 57 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.399 Someone acknowledges that I am important in the audience. I appreciate that. Now 58 00:10:30.440 --> 00:10:35.559 before we get to the topic, I do have to laugh. I didn't 59 00:10:35.559 --> 00:10:43.679 believe this was real. It is real. So one of the cardinals responded 60 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:50.919 and roasted Michael Laughton. Yes, you heard me correctly. I must confess 61 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:56.360 I have often waste time follow a program reason theology. Michael lofton this man, 62 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:03.279 big little beard, he should hide tattoo. He speak like theologian. 63 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:11.200 However, he's not the elogian. This is this is really And then the 64 00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:16.399 best part is at the end, after the roast. I waste time with 65 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:24.039 nonsense of Michael Lofton. No more minutes wasted, mister Lofton, Uh, 66 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:28.360 waste of time. I invite everyone to stop spending their time and money on 67 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:37.480 him. This this is real. Yes, you heard me correctly. One 68 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:46.159 of the cardinals roasted Michael Lofton. And I was skeptical and say this can't 69 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:54.200 be real. But when you go to his Twitter page, it's linked right 70 00:11:54.240 --> 00:12:15.240 here boom roasted exactly. Now, if Eric Obarr gets winto this, better 71 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:20.080 watch out, because when he hears roasted, he just thinks of peanuts and 72 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.679 or hams and or any other type of food products that might be roasted. 73 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:33.559 So you know it's not roasted Michael Lofton bringing ibarra to the trough. It's 74 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:39.799 roasting in the sense of jokes. But nobody in that's fear understands jokes anyway. 75 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:43.159 All right, let's get to the first point, which is that a 76 00:12:43.159 --> 00:12:48.279 couple of my video. I did a brief video and it got quite a 77 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:52.360 good amount of views before we open it up. Here we've got atheist man. 78 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.679 I think that's gonna pop on even though it's not atheists Day. This 79 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.960 man debated Pagot and he's I wanted to debate you, and I said, 80 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.440 well, i'll tell you what you can comp on this live stream. Even 81 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.279 though it's not a it's not atheist day, I'll let you hop on here. 82 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:11.720 Or he's a skeptic or something. Anyway, he'll be on here in 83 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:18.559 a little bit, I guess. So today we're going to go through a 84 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:24.919 further clarification of my one minute video that refutes Islam. And we're gonna do 85 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:31.159 the clarification because this helps us to understand exactly what the Quran says. And 86 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:37.200 no, we've not even had we had one Muslim correctly state the hypothetical. 87 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:43.600 He was the first one to do it in the road debate that I did 88 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:52.200 the other day where I have a weird lisp, thank you Elon. But 89 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.480 up until him, we had no one able to state it. So we're 90 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:01.720 going to go through the multiple passages in the to the Quran that talk about 91 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.559 that you're supposed to go to the Bible, to the tore up to the 92 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:16.759 Gospel to confirm this new revelation because this is again kind of the ultimate reputation. 93 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.519 So we'll start with two and there's not too many of these. I'm 94 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.639 gonna go through them and hopefully we'll see won't take that long. We'll hit 95 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:31.360 each one of these and then we'll open it up. So first is two 96 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:41.039 seventy seven, No, not six two. I'm married to them. By 97 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:45.840 the way, we had a great live event. We sold over our target 98 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:52.240 in Vegas. We had a great presentation from Isaac Jimbob did great with his 99 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.159 stand up. I did some quote comedy, cringe court music. It was 100 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:05.159 a blast. Jamie did a great pre and then I did my geopolitics conspiracy 101 00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:16.679 presentation. All right, First one is do they not know that Allah is 102 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.080 aware of what they conceal and what they reveal? And among them are the 103 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:26.519 illiterate who know nothing about the scriptures except lies, and so they wishfully speculate. 104 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.440 Woe to those who distort the scriptures with their hands, and they say 105 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:35.639 this is from Allah seeking a fleeting gain, Woe to them from what their 106 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:39.919 hands have written, Woe to them for what they've earned. Some of the 107 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:45.960 Jews claim this and that. And now notice that this is the first passage 108 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:50.960 that is usually brought up, and it does not say that the Bible itself 109 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:56.600 is corrupted. It says that illiterate people, Okay, Now, if they're 110 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:00.559 illiterate, as Sam ch Munhoffen points out, how are they going to rewrite 111 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:06.600 the Bible and corrupt it. This is talking about illiterate people who don't know 112 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:12.120 about the scripture, and so they speculate on it. And it says woe 113 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:18.639 to those who distort the scriptures and say this is from Allah. It does 114 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.759 not say, when we compare this to other verses, that the scriptures themselves 115 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:29.600 actually were twisted and tainted in terms of the written texts. It says that 116 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:36.759 illiterate people are distorting it and rewording it for their own gain. Furthermore, 117 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:42.399 the other passages state that the texts are not corrupted. So if you wanted 118 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.879 to read this passage, it's as if it was saying that that the Torah 119 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:52.039 and the Gospel are corrupted, then it would contradict the other passages as we 120 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:56.240 will see. So notice it's illiterate people, not literate people, writing up 121 00:16:56.360 --> 00:17:07.720 new verses and making up new texts. So the next one is three. 122 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:11.759 There is no God worthy of worship except Him, the ever, living in 123 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.759 the all sustaining. He has revealed to you a prophet, the Book in 124 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:21.799 truth, confirming what came before, as he revealed Torah and Gospel. So 125 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:30.000 notice Torah and Gospel are equivalent to the revelation given here, supposedly, and 126 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:37.440 it's confirmed in what came before. So the proposition here in three one to 127 00:17:37.519 --> 00:17:44.000 three of the Quran is that the new revelation is going to be consistent with 128 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.160 what came before, and that will be one of the ways that we know, 129 00:17:47.279 --> 00:18:04.160 we recognize confirming it. You see next is three forty eight. Mary 130 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.920 wondered, how can I have a child when no man has touched me? 131 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:12.119 An angel said it will be. So Allah creates whatever he wills. If 132 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:15.440 he decrees the matter, he simply says, be and it is, and 133 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:22.200 Allah will teach him writing and wisdom Torah and Gospel. So notice the assumption 134 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:30.839 here in the Quran is that Jesus, the virgin born son of Mary has 135 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:38.160 the understanding and wisdom of the Torah and the Gospel. Does it say that 136 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:45.920 Jesus's message or presentation or understanding what's corrupted? Now, Remember, Muslims will 137 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:48.880 often say we accept Jesus, we accept him as quote Messiah, even though 138 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:53.079 Messiah is a Hebrew term from the Hebrew Bible makes no sense in Islam. 139 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:59.480 There's no notion of what Messiah actually means in Islamic theologist just said to be 140 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:03.920 something that they accept. And remember that Jesus says, of course, for 141 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:11.279 in many places throughout the Gospels that God is his father. Many places in 142 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:17.319 the Old Testament, Israel calls God father. God calls himself the father of 143 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:19.839 Israel. Stter so God has seen as father. Jesus refers to God as 144 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:25.440 his father. This shows us that Jesus is not in continuity with Islam, 145 00:19:25.880 --> 00:19:30.640 contrary to what the Quran says right here, because Allah has no sons. 146 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.359 Islam is very clear that there are no sons of God. Allah does not 147 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.880 have any sons in any sense, and therefore Jesus cannot be preaching the same 148 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:48.559 deity as Mohammed views Allah. The next one, and then we'll open it 149 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.200 up. I see Jake is here, so we'll go to him if he 150 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.119 wants to hop on here in a little bit. There's not a whole lot 151 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.759 of these passages that I'm going to work through. I'm doing this because when 152 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.319 I'm made the one minute video, a lot of Muslims kind of popped on 153 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.559 and they always have the same two or three responses to this where they say, 154 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.079 ah, but you see the Bible is corrupted, and the Koran says 155 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:14.880 it's corrupted. Now, notice that the Koran actually said earlier, right in 156 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:18.160 the previous example, No, no, you have to confirm the new revelation 157 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:26.599 with what was prior. Okay, Torah and Gospel will confirm Quran. We 158 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:37.839 all saw that right. The next one is four forty four. Have you 159 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:44.240 a prophet not seen those who were given a portion of the scriptures? Yet 160 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:48.839 they trade it for misguidance, and you wish to see it you and wish 161 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:55.359 to see you deviate from the right path. Alla knows best who your enemies 162 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.359 are. Ala is sufficient guardian, He is a sufficient helper. Some of 163 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.119 the Jews take the words out of context and say we listen and we obey. 164 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.720 So notice this is going to be similar to one of the other passages 165 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:11.799 about distorting with their tongues. Right. It doesn't say that the text itself 166 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.279 is distorted. It says that some of the Jews, not all of them, 167 00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:19.279 some of them took some of the words out of context and said we 168 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:26.240 listen and we obey. And then it goes on to say Allah condemns them 169 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.799 for their disbelief, Oh, you who were given the book. This is 170 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:37.400 all us speaking to Jews. Right, believe in what we have revealed, 171 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:44.799 confirming your own scriptures before you see that there four forty seven. Believe in 172 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:51.480 what we revealed, confirming your own scriptures. You say that. So the 173 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.160 very challenge that we keep saying is the challenge in the Quran itself. You 174 00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:04.519 can confirm what's in this supposed new revelation with what came before. The next 175 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:17.000 one is five. Then, in the footsteps of the prophets, we sent 176 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:21.720 Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. You 177 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.000 see, this one is a kill shot because we have many existing Torahs and 178 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:33.359 gospels prior to the seventh century. What other Torah or Gospel would there be 179 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:38.000 other than the ones that the Christians and the Jews possess. Okay, now, 180 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:44.119 this is saying that Jesus in the first century, excuse me, was 181 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:52.279 sent by Allah and that he confirmed the Torah. Nothing about the Torah being 182 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:59.759 corrupted, nothing about the Torah being made up, nothing about their being a 183 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:03.960 quote true Torah that only Muslims had access to. Right, that's all the 184 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:07.240 conspiracy stuff that they go to four, which there is absolutely no evidence. 185 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:17.920 We gave Jesus the Gospel containing guidance and light confirming what was in the Torah. 186 00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:22.319 So notice there's a chain of confirmations here. Even the Quran assumes that 187 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:30.200 Jesus confirms the Torah, the Gospel confirms the Torah, and that the Quran 188 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:37.200 will be confirmed via the previous revelation forty seven. Let the people of the 189 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:44.519 Gospel, the Christians, judge what Allah revealed in it in the previous text, 190 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:48.279 the previous texts you see, so five, forty six, and forty 191 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:56.680 seven again very clearly enjoining Christians and Jews. Here are Christians to confirm this 192 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:02.000 quote new revelation by what came before. Now, the whole point of all 193 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:07.119 this is that the prior revelation does not confirm the Qoran, is totally contrary 194 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.240 to it. And we all know this because every time we have a debate 195 00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:12.599 with the Muslims, and we've debated all of the top Muslims except for a 196 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:18.799 Hijab who has yet to accept the debate. What do they all say, 197 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.880 Ah, But you see, the Koran is what corrects the Gospel in the 198 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:26.440 Torah. But now wait a minute, you just pull debate and switch. 199 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:30.079 You flipped it on me because the Quran says, I can check this new 200 00:24:30.119 --> 00:24:34.640 revelation of the Qoran against the old revelation. And from the perspective of a 201 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:40.640 juror Christian, we are not going to listen to new revelation if it's inconsistent 202 00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:45.920 with what came prior. That's why Dounonymy thirteen, did Rymy eighteen Galatians one 203 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:51.680 all say that the more recent has to be checked against the prior. Now, 204 00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:53.920 if you're a Christian, then we, by the way, we automatically 205 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.160 out of hand reject all of this because there are no new revelations after the 206 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.480 death of the Apostles. But even if there were, it wouldn't work because 207 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:10.519 just like say Mormonism, you would have the same problem here that just as 208 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:15.720 if you talk to Mormons for any spate of time, they will say, 209 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:21.720 ah, you see Joseph Smith is is he's in line with the Bible. 210 00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.200 We agree with the Bible. Okay, well, then I'm supposed to judge 211 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:30.279 the new revelations with what came before. Ah. You see, Joseph Smith 212 00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:33.759 corrects where the Bible made mistakes. You see, So you see there were 213 00:25:33.880 --> 00:25:40.079 errors in the previous revelation. Now you've got to follow the new revelation. 214 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.279 But wait a minute. You just said that you're in in continuity with the 215 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:48.319 previous revelation, correct, Okay, Well why would I not reject you if 216 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:52.160 the previous revelation is inconsistent with the new revelation. Oh you see there's errors 217 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:56.839 in it. Oh where are the errors anywhere? That disagrees with Joseph Smith? 218 00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:00.960 So you see the point you see, Oh, this is this is 219 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:07.400 a ridiculous bait and switch. It's preposterous. And again it even says, 220 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.559 let the people of the Gospel, the Christians judge what Allah has revealed if 221 00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.279 it's consistent with Torah on Gospel. Okay, well it's not. It's very 222 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:19.880 clearly not, because every Muslim, when they encounter the countless passages that deal 223 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.920 with the Trinity or the deed of Christ, automatically arbitrarily say, oh, 224 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:29.240 those are all the corrupt ones. Oh okay, So basically we confirm the 225 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:33.079 Koran with the Bible when the Bible agrees with the Koran. And they don't 226 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:40.799 understand how silly this is the only one that we had so far who could 227 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:45.759 restate the hypothetical a couple of days ago on the live stream, the first 228 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:49.680 one one out of I don't know. It's eight hours of Muslim debates, 229 00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:55.519 consistent Muslim callers, and only one of them could restate the hypothetical. And 230 00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:57.640 he said, oh, well, you have to interpret all this with the 231 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:02.279 hadiths. Oh so I can't just read the Quran. I got to read 232 00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.279 it through the lens of the hadiths. And the hadiths say that the Bible's 233 00:27:04.279 --> 00:27:07.400 corrupted. And I said, well, wait a minute, though, would 234 00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.839 a seventh century Christian or d you hearing this know to interpret it through the 235 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:17.319 hadiths? And he said, yes, eh, not true. The hideth 236 00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:22.119 are about three hundred years later, so that's not true. So that was 237 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.400 the best answer that they've had so far. But even that was ridiculous because 238 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.519 he had to pretend like the hadiths and by the way, what seventh century 239 00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:33.400 christianer are you hearing this? Would be? Like, Oh, so I'm 240 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:36.440 supposed to go check it. Oh but wait a minute, I have to 241 00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:40.799 interpret what you just said through these hidiths. I mean, it's just ridiculous. 242 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.640 All right, next one, we've got a couple more ten thirty seven. 243 00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.799 It is not possible that this Quran has been produced by anyone other than 244 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:56.039 Allah. Well, I'm glad that the Koran at least told me that it's 245 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:00.839 not possible, because that means that proves it, right. It's literally not 246 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:06.319 even possible that anyone else produced it. In fact, it is a confirmation 247 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:10.880 of what came before. It is an explanation of the scriptures that came before. 248 00:28:10.920 --> 00:28:18.000 You see that. And then the next verse is kind of funny because 249 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:27.839 it says, oh, if you think we made it up, then produce 250 00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:36.440 one sura even like this. That's an that's a kind of funny challenge, 251 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:40.440 right, So like the proof of it is to say, well, just 252 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.880 try to make one even like this, Just try to produce one sura even 253 00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.880 close to this. You can't even do it. So that's an odd flex, 254 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:51.920 but it's there in the corona. Let's see, I forgot one in 255 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:59.279 six. This one's pretty good too, six one, fourteen. Oh, 256 00:28:59.319 --> 00:29:03.480 profit should I seek a judge other than Allah? While he is the one 257 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:08.960 who has revealed for you the book the truth that is perfectly explained those who 258 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:12.559 were given the scriptures Jews and Christians. No, it has been revealed to 259 00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:17.359 you, So do not be one of those in doubt. The word of 260 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:19.440 our Lord has been perfect in truth and justice, and no one can change 261 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.160 his words. Now, wait a minute. If Allah revealed the Torah and 262 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:26.279 the Gospel, then how do all these goobers then turn around and say that 263 00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:30.599 Allah's words have been perverted in the tour in the Gospel, are not really 264 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.119 the words of Allah Allah anymore? Uh oh? No one can change his 265 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:40.920 words, though, But remember there is a revelation in the Torah in the 266 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:45.759 Gospel that's Allah a Law's word, but it's been perverted and corrupted. But 267 00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:48.920 wait a minute, no one can pervert and corrupt Allah's words. You jail 268 00:29:48.920 --> 00:29:55.279 silly these people are. This religion is ridiculous. It's literally not even. 269 00:29:55.720 --> 00:30:00.640 What happened was a bunch of Arabs, who many of whom were illiterate, 270 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:06.799 heard a bunch of stories that were partly things like the proto Evangelium of James, 271 00:30:07.559 --> 00:30:11.279 the Testament of Abraham, apocryphal texts, Talmuitik texts as is now well 272 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:19.200 known, legends from the Talmud, some elements of the New Testament, some 273 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:26.640 elements of the Bible and the Old Testament, and elements of Nestorian Christianity. 274 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:33.200 As the Cambridge Companion to the Oxford Companion to Islam admits in the origins of 275 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.640 Islam. And if you understand that that's what it is, it then makes 276 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:42.079 perfect sense why, for example, the chron mixes up a bunch of details 277 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:47.599 in multiple Bible stories. It gets it all convoluted. You can tell it's 278 00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:49.400 people that we're hearing stories and we're writing it down. They got to confused, 279 00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.960 for example, thinking that Mary is part of the Trinity, or that 280 00:30:53.400 --> 00:31:06.480 Christians worship monks. Very bizarre stuff. And then I think there's six one 281 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:17.720 point fifty four. We're almost done with these. Additionally, we gave Moses 282 00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:22.759 scripture completing the favor upon those who do good, and detailing everything as a 283 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:27.119 guide and a mercy, so perhaps they would be certain of the meeting of 284 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.400 their Lord. This is a blessed book that we revealed, follow it and 285 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:37.559 be mindful. So again affirming that the Torah given to Moses was given supposedly 286 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:44.400 from the same Allah revealing of the Qur'an. And you'll notice that there's no 287 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:48.160 mentions here of the texts that were given to Moses or the original texts being 288 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:53.039 corrupted. That's something that Muslims have used as an argument many centuries later to 289 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:59.839 try to deal with the obvious total inconsistencies between the biblical revelation and the kurn 290 00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:09.079 Let's say, I get one more one or two more nine thirty two. 291 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.880 They wish to extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will only allow 292 00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:22.640 his light to be perfected to the dismay of the unbelievers. He is the 293 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:25.839 one who sent his messengers with truth and the religion of truth, making it 294 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.559 prevail over all others, to the dismay of the polytheists. So this is 295 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:38.920 talking about, all right, the pet the prophets previously, Jesus, Moses, 296 00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:45.359 et cetera. And again it states that the revelation given at that time 297 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:49.880 was correct and was from Allah. Now again, nowhere do we see any 298 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:53.759 mass mentions of it being twisted and corrupted the text itself, the Torah and 299 00:32:53.799 --> 00:33:00.000 the Gospel texts, you say, and the couple instances of it being corrupted. 300 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:04.119 It has to do with the way that quote Jews twisted it with and 301 00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:06.359 it didn't even say all of it is that some of the Jews twisted it 302 00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:10.599 in there with their tongues. Let's see sixty one. This is the last 303 00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:30.119 one. I think. Yeah, they wish to extinguish Allah's light with their 304 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.480 mouths, but Alla will certainly perfect his light, even to the dismay of 305 00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:37.519 the unbelievers. Nobody minute. Do I do that one? Yeah? I 306 00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:44.039 did that one. Okay, did we do three? Seventy seven and seventy 307 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:49.039 eight? I can't remember if I did that one either. But this is 308 00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:55.079 the one that they often reply with as proof that the scriptures are corrupted. 309 00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:59.759 But when we read the passage, you'll notice that it doesn't say that at 310 00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:04.319 all if you read the context. Indeed, those who trade Allah's covenant and 311 00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:07.039 oaths for a fleeting gain will have no share in the Hereafter Allah will judge, 312 00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:09.280 will neither speak to them, nor look at them, nor purify them. 313 00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.639 On the day of judgment, they will suffer a painful punishment. There 314 00:34:14.679 --> 00:34:17.639 are some among them. It doesn't say all the Jews are all the Christians. 315 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:24.760 Some among them who distort the book with rewriting it, No, with 316 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:31.760 their tongues. So their explanations and interpretations of the text are distortions. To 317 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:36.840 make you think that the distortion is from the book, But it is not 318 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.599 what the book says. I kid you not. This is the passage that 319 00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:45.559 they all go to to try to say that the Bible and the Torah are 320 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.400 corrupted. What does it say right there? It says the book is not 321 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:55.559 corrupted. It says that their explanations of it from their tongues are a distortion. 322 00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.480 Is that clear to everybody? So that's the full list of the places 323 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:13.280 in the Kuran. I mean, there might be some more that I'm just 324 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.920 not even aware of, but that's the ten or so that I've found so 325 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:22.400 far where we are enjoined to test the new revelation with whether it's in continuity 326 00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:27.679 with the Torah and the Gospel. And the assumption of the Koran pretty clearly 327 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:30.559 is that when you go and do this, you will see that we're teaching 328 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:32.280 the same thing. Well, of course it's not the same thing, obviously, 329 00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:37.320 but that and if that is the case, that's pretty much an ender 330 00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:42.360 for Islam. I mean, the hold of the revelation rest on this being 331 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.559 the case. And if this is not the case, then Islam is not 332 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:49.320 true. So that's why this is such a strong argument. Now we have 333 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.079 Jake, if he wants to hop on, you can come on and we'll 334 00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:59.840 have a discussion here I know that you were a interested in having a discussions 335 00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:04.440 out on Islam. We can go back to Islam after this if he's able 336 00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:10.400 to come on and Jake had a discussion with Pagoe. I've not watched this 337 00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:13.519 full. I watched a little bit of it, maybe a few minutes of 338 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:20.519 it, but they can you hear me? Hey, thanks for having me 339 00:36:20.519 --> 00:36:23.800 on. Sure, how you doing? How was your pageot talk? I 340 00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:28.679 thought it was fun and you tell me. I mean, I've gotten different 341 00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:32.840 responses. It was. It was cool, a little unfulfilling, but I 342 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:37.280 haven't I only saw a little bit of like a couple of clips because we 343 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.639 just got back from like a two week road trip, so I haven't seen 344 00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:44.480 much of it. So Twitter space is audio only, right, I don't 345 00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:50.440 get to just got my camera set up. Okay, you're on my channel, 346 00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:54.119 so you can clip this and and do whatever. Okay is this being 347 00:36:54.159 --> 00:37:00.440 recorded or yeah, we're alive on YouTube and over here on I'm pretty clueless. 348 00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.440 So I reached out to you, Jake, because I had, like 349 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:07.599 it had to be like fifty sixty something, like a lot of people saying, 350 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:08.719 hey, you got to talk, You got to talk to Jay Didier 351 00:37:09.039 --> 00:37:16.599 okay. And so you know, because my conversation with Jonathan Joe, the 352 00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:20.559 purpose of that conversation, the reason I set up a call, the reason 353 00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:23.639 he spoke to me is because I wanted to ask him questions about the work 354 00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:27.960 he does with symbolism, you know, that's his thing. And then we 355 00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.920 get into the call and he mentions Christianity and I couldn't help myself and I 356 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:34.400 was like, you know, do you really believe in that? Can I 357 00:37:34.440 --> 00:37:37.239 can I ask you about your views? Can I push you on this a 358 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:38.840 bit? And I said, you know, Jonathan, I know this is 359 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:42.639 not something that we said we would discuss, but here we are like can 360 00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:45.400 I can I go into this? And he said, yeah, go for 361 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:47.960 it for sure? And so that's why we That's how we got into that 362 00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:54.199 conversation. And you what, what, I haven't had a chance to look 363 00:37:54.199 --> 00:37:57.800 at your chamit. What do you focus on mainly? What's your topics? 364 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:04.239 Yeah, so basically the question I asked him that I want to ask you 365 00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:10.079 is I agree with you that there's a lot of value to be gained in 366 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:15.840 practicing religion. I think we live in a world where it's difficult to create 367 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:20.679 a system of morality and ethics outside of religion, and there's a lot of 368 00:38:20.760 --> 00:38:23.199 value to religion. Okay, I think people should practice what they want to 369 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:29.719 practice. That being said, I still think it's appropriate to say, well, 370 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:32.760 hold on a minute, that the stories the Bible actually happened. But 371 00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.440 again, I want to make it extremely clear to the listeners. I'm not 372 00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:43.079 saying this is so silly, you shouldn't practice religion. I'm saying there's a 373 00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.840 value to religion, and it's a good question to ask, how do you 374 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:50.519 know the stories happened? And I think you can live with I think you 375 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:55.079 can be someone who practices religion or appreciates religion, but doesn't believe in the 376 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.719 you know, the Bible work for where it's so really my question is just 377 00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:04.920 how do you know that the Bible, like the stories of the Bible actually 378 00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.519 happen. Question. Yeah, that's a fair question. I tend to argue 379 00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:13.840 the transcendental argument for God's existence, and so it's kind of like it's a 380 00:39:13.880 --> 00:39:17.400 logical argument that's prior to logic at all, or the doing of logic, 381 00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:23.400 or any knowledge claims at all, because it deals with the preconditions of knowledge. 382 00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:29.119 So it's it's kind of like I would agree with you that we're not 383 00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:32.960 going to settle the issue of like what things are possible or not possible apart 384 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:38.519 from what types of things we think are possible within our worldviews or our paradigm. 385 00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:42.679 So ultimately, for me, it's kind of a worldview question where we 386 00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:46.599 end up saying, well, the only way that I know what's possible is 387 00:39:47.159 --> 00:39:52.639 based on some kind of metaphysical assumption from the outset, and in order to 388 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:58.559 go about that we end up having to do worldview or transcendental argumentation. So 389 00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:02.320 that's kind of debating things that at a fundamental level, And the challenge is 390 00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:08.599 this that if the Christian God does not exist, then knowledge, metaphysics, 391 00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:15.400 and ethics becomes impossible to justify or make sense of. So I usually flip 392 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:20.119 this argument and say that the way that I know is that without that God, 393 00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:24.039 existing knowledge in terms of justified true belief wouldn't really even be possible. 394 00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:30.199 And so God becomes for me, in my argument, the necessary grounding for 395 00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:37.119 the possibility of knowledge, logic, ethics at all. That's the transcendental argument, 396 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:40.880 and I think it's the strongest one by the way. I want to 397 00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:45.159 the other thing, like I feel like I could have done better. In 398 00:40:45.159 --> 00:40:47.719 my conversation with Jonathan Joe is like, I don't I want to concede to 399 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:52.719 as many points as I possibly can, because that way I don't detract. 400 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:57.760 I really have one singular point and I don't want it to get lost. 401 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.519 And I feel like with religious debate and conversation, you know, the arguments 402 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:06.920 often get tangled up because there's so many layers of understanding that we can get 403 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.199 to with these conversations. So let me concede as much as I can. 404 00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:13.320 You know, you make it so God exists, right, I have no 405 00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:16.599 problem with that. Why not so God is? Let's say God is real 406 00:41:16.679 --> 00:41:22.239 and you know, and that that explains I think whatever you were saying about, 407 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:27.760 like the ethics or something. So again, let me ask the question, 408 00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:31.519 how do you know that the stories of the Bible actually happened because of 409 00:41:31.559 --> 00:41:36.280 the transcendental argument? That's my That's where I start from. So and I 410 00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:37.559 don't know if I followed the argument. I think what your argument is saying 411 00:41:37.639 --> 00:41:42.360 is like because of some things that we see in the world, like I 412 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.800 don't know, like patterns or something that therefore the Bible I'm not following, 413 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:49.159 like what's the argument. So, the form of the argument is X is 414 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:52.719 a necessary condition of why why Therefore X. The argument in terms of how 415 00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:58.800 I explicated is that if God didn't exist, then there would be no way 416 00:41:58.800 --> 00:42:01.599 to have justified belief, that is, to wait, a way to ground 417 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:06.840 our knowledge in terms of epistemology. And so because we do have knowledge, 418 00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:10.159 or we appear to you know, exchange information and have conversations, and we 419 00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:15.599 use language and meaning and numbers in math and all that, uh, then 420 00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:19.760 knowledge appears to exist. And so therefore, in order for knowledge to even 421 00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:24.960 be possible requires some kind of ultimate absolute, some kind of ultimate principle, 422 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.920 and namely that is the Christian God. So the Christian God does the work 423 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:36.480 of grounding as a kind of in theologies called divine conceptualism. So meaning language, 424 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.639 all these things are only possible, and it's in the sense of justifying 425 00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:44.800 their existence and their and their jay. Maybe I'm fucking stupid, I'm not 426 00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:49.000 understanding. Let me try to read it back to you and then you so 427 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.320 uh So, the essence of what you're saying is like, look, you're 428 00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:57.719 not You're not trying to prove the Bible stories being true from first principles saying, 429 00:42:57.760 --> 00:42:59.599 Hey, Jake, look, here's the evidence. Here's that it was 430 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.000 true. What you're doing is the reverse, which I think is a reasonable 431 00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.760 approach to take, right to say, Like, I want to think of 432 00:43:05.800 --> 00:43:07.760 an analogy, like if I if I can't prove something like if I, 433 00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:12.159 okay, if I find a dead person with a bullet hole in their head 434 00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:15.159 and I can't find the gun, I can infer like, hey, this 435 00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:16.960 person probably got shot in the head because now there's a bullet hole in my 436 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.800 head. Right, so it's possible for us to infer cause the relationships. 437 00:43:24.880 --> 00:43:30.960 So I don't I don't fault you for but but I really, like I 438 00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:34.239 don't know if it's because I haven't slept enough. Like so you're saying, 439 00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:37.960 can you say your argument in like one sentence? Like, so you you 440 00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:39.559 think that the essence of what you're saying is you think the stories of the 441 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:45.280 Bible happened because of some way that they're manifesting themselves in reality. I'm just 442 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:47.679 not clear what what you're really saying, Like, yeah, I mean right. 443 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.559 So again, it's a specific type of logical argument called the transcendental argument 444 00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:58.079 for God's existence. Right, Yes, and it posits that before you can 445 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:01.840 even do the type of question that you're asking about about what's possible in terms 446 00:44:01.840 --> 00:44:07.679 of miracles or Bible stories or whatever, that there are prior questions that we 447 00:44:07.760 --> 00:44:13.480 all have and assumptions about what's possible that have to be debated and discussed first. 448 00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.880 So in your worldview, you would, as a skeptic or an atheist 449 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:21.840 or whatever your position is, Agnosta, you would assume that, well, 450 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.519 it just doesn't seem like those things are possible. So at the outset, 451 00:44:24.519 --> 00:44:30.199 you and I have different accounts of what things are and aren't possible metaphysically speaking. 452 00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:32.400 So the point there is just to say that I don't think we do 453 00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:35.400 it all. If I told you, hey, man, like my grandma 454 00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.760 rose from the dead today, you'd be like, nah, man, no, 455 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:38.760 she did it. Like, let me see eence of that. I 456 00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:44.039 would bet that you and I j have the same understanding of what generally is 457 00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:50.800 metaphysically possible. Well no, But because my ultimate governing commitment is the Christian 458 00:44:50.840 --> 00:44:53.800 paradigm, yours is not. So. No, we have fundamentally different accounts 459 00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:57.840 of what things are and are not possible. Would you believe me if I 460 00:44:57.840 --> 00:45:00.679 told you? Right, now my grandmother rose from the dead today. No, 461 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.519 I would not. Why not because it's very unlikely? Right? Because 462 00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:09.719 why because it violates what you know about physics? Right? No, it's 463 00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:15.039 just it wouldn't It wouldn't be likely just given a common sense account of what 464 00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:22.119 things typically occur. But your so the whole argument. I think you've missed 465 00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:27.760 the entire argument. The argument is not settled by particular claims about this or 466 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:30.440 that event in our lives. It's a question of paradigm's as a whole. 467 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:36.320 And you're reading everything. All the evidence that comes into your brain or whatever, 468 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:39.599 is read through your worldview, through your paradigm. And so you say, 469 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:45.239 your assumption is that certain things are not possible or very very unlikely, 470 00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:47.760 but that that has nothing to do with whether or not you can give an 471 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:52.199 account for these things as a whole. So do you believe that there's objective 472 00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:58.239 truths or that knowledge is possible? I don't define those terms. And and 473 00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:01.199 by the way, I I don't want to. I'm not trying to. 474 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:08.079 I don't want to, like outright try to refute what you're saying or try 475 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.880 to kind of push you to a corner. I really am genuinely at like 476 00:46:10.880 --> 00:46:14.239 trying to understand what I saw. I mean, we've heard, you know, 477 00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:16.119 skeptical claims a lot, and I don't. I don't have a problem 478 00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:21.679 with you bringing forward sort of the skeptical claim or an argument. But the 479 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:28.360 point is that this is a much deeper issue than whether or not it's possible 480 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:32.159 for something out of the ordinary to happen. So let's say that your grandmother 481 00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:36.440 did appear to you know, come back or wake up out of the coffin 482 00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:40.119 or something like that. I mean, you would probably assume that even if 483 00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:43.559 that occurred, it wasn't a miracle, it was some sort of like, 484 00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:47.880 you know, weird phenomenon that we haven't studied or understood yet or science hasn't 485 00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.400 given us an answer yet. Right, So, even if someone rose from 486 00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.599 the debt, it wouldn't necessarily mean that the supernatural is true, even in 487 00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:00.320 your in your in your worldview, right. Uh No, I mean if 488 00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:01.880 someone rose from the dead, I would be a believer, man, I 489 00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:06.360 would say, Wow, that's pretty good evidence that something's going on here. 490 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.400 I would in that instant, I would I would try to find it religious. 491 00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:12.400 Well, don't you think that? So there's a lot of claims of 492 00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.440 this in the world, right, and most skeptics is Mike, Okay, 493 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:17.039 can you hear me? Okay, yeah, I can. It's like good 494 00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:20.920 because I got this like this sure microphone. I don't know if it's coming 495 00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:22.440 with the audio on Twitter basis, it doesn't really give me an option like 496 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:27.679 to you sound great to me? So do what you sound great? Yeah? 497 00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:30.039 Oh thanks man? You should see Okay. So anyways, so you're 498 00:47:30.079 --> 00:47:36.679 saying, so, I mean, there are miracle claims all the time in 499 00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:39.800 the world, and most most people do not accept them. They most most 500 00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:44.880 of the time they will say, well, there's probably another explanation for that. 501 00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:46.639 And you don't think in the case of your grandmother you would you would 502 00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:51.280 look for another explanation. Yeah, So if I saw it, then I 503 00:47:51.320 --> 00:47:54.239 would say a lot, it's pretty remarkable. If I told you my grandmother 504 00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:59.320 rose from the dead, hopefully you would not believe me. You would say, 505 00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:02.840 dude, I don't believe you. That sounds pretty unlikely. Well, 506 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:08.039 that's why, that's precisely why this issue can't be solved on what people's claims 507 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:12.239 are. And it's a yeah, and so that's why it goes to the 508 00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:15.920 paradigm level. That's the whole point of the transcendent argument. So let's look 509 00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:17.000 then, you know, I was saying like, oh, I don't understand 510 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:21.400 the transient's argument. Let's drill into the transcendent argument. So I'm going to 511 00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:22.719 say what I understand about it, and then maybe you can elaborate a bit 512 00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:27.360 and we can have a substand conversation about this argument. So the transidentence argument 513 00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:32.159 is an attend from you is that we understand the divinity of the Bible or 514 00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:39.360 of of Christianity based on the causes of that source. So based on it's 515 00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:44.719 not the causal argument in reality, So what so I guess what? So, 516 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:46.320 so let's let's just dig into that. So what is it about the 517 00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:51.199 world? So the transit argument is prior to the teleological argument, is prior 518 00:48:51.239 --> 00:48:54.280 to the causal argument. It's it's before all of those because it's an argument 519 00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:58.320 about the possibility of arguing at all. So it's a meta level argument. 520 00:48:58.360 --> 00:49:01.360 Are you familiar with like meta level arugmentation? I just yeah, I just 521 00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:06.280 think it's well, maybe you didn't understand it first, because I'm not trying 522 00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:08.920 to be rude, but like, let's understand it first. So what is 523 00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:14.639 your worldview. First, by the way, I don't know you know what 524 00:49:14.679 --> 00:49:17.639 I actually On principle, I'm gonna stay away from many of those terms because 525 00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:21.239 I don't think they're helpful in this context. In fact, I think they 526 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:23.960 detract from the point. I think a big problem with these religious arguments is 527 00:49:24.000 --> 00:49:30.000 you have people like Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson who, because of their own 528 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.559 ego primarily are kind of rambling and trying to intertwine these complex terms. I'm 529 00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:37.840 going to use as simple terms as possible and as few words as possible to 530 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:40.199 make my points, because I think that is at the crux of a powerful 531 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:47.400 argument, and I can I can very concisely describe how I understand reality without 532 00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:52.480 the use of any of these more complex theories. Right, So, I 533 00:49:52.519 --> 00:49:57.360 what do I believe? I believe we live on planet Earth and it is 534 00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:01.320 round, and it orbits the Sun. I believe that we have an intact 535 00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:07.840 system for discerning truth about What would that be? Yeah? So hold on. 536 00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:12.880 So I believe we have an intact system for discerning truth about generally speaking 537 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.280 about science and history, and we sometimes get it wrong. Sometimes we fuck 538 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:19.719 it up, and sometimes details are wrong. But you and I both agree. 539 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:21.920 I don't even have to ask this. You and I both agree that 540 00:50:22.039 --> 00:50:29.079 largely speaking, our global societal understanding of history is true, right, neither 541 00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:30.440 of you. No, I have no idea what that even means. That's 542 00:50:31.000 --> 00:50:34.880 just appeals to generalities that I don't even know what that means. I'll be 543 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:39.480 very specific, She'll be very specific. Both you and I agree that claims 544 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:45.400 of the fact that the Mayans had a thriving civilization, that there was a 545 00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:49.400 Roman empire, that rosen fell, that the Mongolian Empire, that Christopher Columbus 546 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:54.440 sail across the ocean, all of these are historical accounts that we have created 547 00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:58.519 as a society and understood. And I'm going to make the bet, and 548 00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:01.119 please tell me if I'm wrong that you believe these things that you believe George 549 00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:05.679 Washington was the first president. That you believe Christopher Columbus healthy cross the ocean? 550 00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:07.920 Am I correct? Or? Am I incorrect? Yeah? I don't 551 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:12.239 have any significant reasons to doubt those things. So let me respond to this. 552 00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.000 So the reason you're not downing those things is because, like myself, 553 00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:19.880 you agree that through the methods that as a society, as a world, 554 00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:22.480 we've discovered that the Egyptians had pyramids and the minds had a civilization. In 555 00:51:22.519 --> 00:51:28.400 Christopher Columbus hilth corossoation, we trust those things because we know we know that 556 00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:32.079 we have a great system for understanding historical fact. It's not a perfect system. 557 00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:35.760 Now, pretty good. Now, now we come to the problem here, 558 00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:37.880 do you were don't? Here's here's the question you were. Don't you 559 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:43.880 believe that we have a really good system? Really, so you're confusing. 560 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.800 So it would help to take an epistemology class, not being a rude person 561 00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:52.400 by saying that. But you can assert the things that are commonly held, 562 00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:55.320 but that doesn't tell you that you have the right theory of a pistemology or 563 00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:59.840 the right theory of knowledge. That's another type of question. So you're confusing 564 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.599 the pragmatic account of what most of us believe or what we think by common 565 00:52:04.639 --> 00:52:07.920 sense, which is not necessarily wrong. But none of that can tell you 566 00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:13.280 whether you have the right theory of knowledge. But I'm asking a very simple 567 00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:19.800 question, do you believe you're You can ask that question, but it's ignoring 568 00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:22.639 what I'm raising, which is epistemology and your theory of knowledge. So you 569 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:30.639 can't just keep appealing to commons to consensus, because at the level of epistemic 570 00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:37.079 theory, that's a fallacy. Okay, So I'll grant all that. So 571 00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.800 here's my question, and it's a yester no question, And if do you, 572 00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:46.159 Jane Dare, think that we we meaning America, society, the world, 573 00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:53.880 whatever, do we have a system for discerning historical truth that works? 574 00:52:53.920 --> 00:53:00.679 Do we have a system that works? It works for certain things, but 575 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.800 it can't tell you the right theory of epistemology. That's the point. I 576 00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:07.960 feel like invoking these terms is okay. So in other words, you don't 577 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:12.719 want to go into philosophy because that would be the problem in philosophy. But 578 00:53:12.760 --> 00:53:15.440 I want you to answer my question. Do you think we have I'm answering 579 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:19.119 your question, but it's such a low tier type of question that you're not 580 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:22.880 familiar with what epistemic theory is. Do you know what that is? Yes? 581 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:28.079 What is it? What? What? What is your theory of epistemology 582 00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:34.880 epistemology is? Are you googling it right now as the notion of truth in 583 00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:37.800 terms of epistemic notion? Are you? Did you google it to read it? 584 00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:42.960 I googled it because right, So you kept, so you're not even 585 00:53:43.000 --> 00:53:45.920 aware of what the issues are. The question was what is your theory of 586 00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:51.920 knowledge? Not do people believe things through common sense and consensus? Do you 587 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:57.159 understand that consensus is a fallacy? Consensus is a fallacy? Sure? Yeah, 588 00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:00.280 that that that can be a fallacy if everyone leaves one thing. Okay, 589 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:05.280 So so your epistemic theory was grounded on a fallacy because you said, 590 00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:07.960 well, what we know is what we commonly, what we all know, 591 00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:13.119 what american in the world has. I'm asking a question, do you do 592 00:54:13.239 --> 00:54:16.639 you think that's a two quote way? What's it? I don't know what 593 00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:19.519 the So you don't know what these are, So why are you trying to 594 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:22.760 debate these things? You don't know the basic fallacy and you're pushing back and 595 00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:27.360 asking other questions. You know, No, the question was about epistemology, 596 00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:30.400 and you're asking me another question, which is a two quote way. So 597 00:54:30.400 --> 00:54:34.079 so I then I apologie is if I if I ignored your question? So 598 00:54:34.159 --> 00:54:37.280 what your question that I heard was your questioning me about whether I want to 599 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:40.480 know your theory of knowledge because you said we know, we know, in 600 00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:44.400 fact, you said it twice, we know that this is the right approach 601 00:54:44.480 --> 00:54:47.440 to how we have knowledge of history, and I'm saying that that is not 602 00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:53.599 adequate and doesn't work for grounding your epistemology. That's another type of question that 603 00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:58.920 you can't just appeal to consensus. Yeah, so I don't know that. 604 00:54:59.159 --> 00:55:01.639 So let me try to answer question. And have you had a basic philosophy 605 00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:05.800 class. I'm not trying to read to you, but I can tell that 606 00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:08.239 you haven't. Uh huh, I have you have? But you didn't know 607 00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:13.199 what a pistemology was. I don't. I don't know the definition as you're 608 00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:16.000 okay, but you would learn that if you had a philosophy class. I 609 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:20.800 had to agree in this. I just haven't. I just don't think it's 610 00:55:20.840 --> 00:55:24.320 relevant of this specific question. So epistemology is not relevant to the question of 611 00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:28.440 debate. Okay. It's been a while, so the theory of knowledge? 612 00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:30.920 Okay, so now I remember what it been, gotcha? So now I 613 00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:35.559 remember what I learned an undergrad about amismology. I am with you. It's 614 00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:38.440 an ontology and it's you know all these terms. I just look to be 615 00:55:38.440 --> 00:55:40.599 honest, I don't think right. So you're going to go back to appealing 616 00:55:40.599 --> 00:55:43.960 to avoiding the question. Right, You're going to go back to appealing to 617 00:55:44.119 --> 00:55:47.840 your basic question. That's your question. Your question is what is epistemology? 618 00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:53.280 Wow? No, you said that we have a basic way for discerning truth, 619 00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:55.559 and we know, and we know you said it twice, we know 620 00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:00.119 we know, right, And I said, how do you know that that's 621 00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:05.760 the right criteria for determining truth, that that's the right epistemic criteria? How 622 00:56:05.800 --> 00:56:07.599 do I know? But I don't think you want to be asking that question. 623 00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:09.840 And the reason I don't think you want to be asking that question is 624 00:56:09.880 --> 00:56:14.960 because if that's a sincere question, then you're calling into then you're calling into 625 00:56:15.039 --> 00:56:17.480 question everything we know about reality. You're not even aware of basic of philosophy. 626 00:56:21.400 --> 00:56:23.559 Okay, so if you're going to have a debate, you need to 627 00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:37.679 know the basic terms democrity, epistemology, the study of epistles. Like that 628 00:56:37.719 --> 00:56:58.320 girl said, I'm mute, dude, memocrity, I'm mute. If you 629 00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:00.800 want to support the stream, you can do so via the super chat function. 630 00:57:00.920 --> 00:57:06.679 Just hit super chat link that takes you over to stream labs memocerty. 631 00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:12.639 Do you not want to talk from a point of view? What's up? 632 00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:16.039 Topics today are Islam, Judaism, and I guess atheism. If atheist and 633 00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:21.239 agnostics want to come on. If you're not familiar with basics, please don't 634 00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:24.199 waste my time. Sneako's Islam, Judaism, Roum, Catholicism, Papacy, 635 00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:31.280 Protestantism, here roots, gnosticism. What's up? Do you hear me? 636 00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:37.800 Shame? I do? And good good. So I just wanted to speak 637 00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:42.639 to you about something that you talked a lot about a few weeks ago, 638 00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:52.960 pertaining to Sneako's like alliance for like the current like distant right wing. And 639 00:57:52.960 --> 00:57:57.800 I don't know if it's appropriate today if you want to talk about something else. 640 00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:01.400 I mean, the topics are Islam, but is it relevant to that? 641 00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:10.000 Well, I just want to know your opinion about this. I just 642 00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:16.519 think that this whole alliance that the right wing, specifically that dissenter right wing, 643 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:22.760 is trying to have with the Islamic community in the West, I just 644 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:30.280 feel like it's kind of like self jeopardizing because I mean, let's just be 645 00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:34.440 honest, what Islam promotes. Even if you talk to like the less radical 646 00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:37.280 people in Islam, a lot of the things that they promote and believe in 647 00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:47.159 is just completely incompatible with Western thinking and just Christianity in general, and especially 648 00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:54.480 makes no sense when when with someone like Nick Fuentes is friends with Sniko despite 649 00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:59.480 the fact that he's a Christian. Yeah. I mean we talked about all 650 00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:01.280 that at the last dream. So what's the point. What do you want 651 00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:06.920 to get to? Yeah? I just want to know if, if in 652 00:59:06.960 --> 00:59:12.519 your mind, would it be in the right interest to try and not on 653 00:59:12.719 --> 00:59:15.840 this kind of alliance and instead Yeah, I think it's a waste of time. 654 00:59:15.880 --> 00:59:17.880 I don't understand what the people think they're going to get out of that, 655 00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:32.280 but I appreciate your comment there, Rowena, what's up? Got on 656 00:59:32.440 --> 00:59:40.639 you? Okay? I'm going to jump in and talk about Ireland and where 657 00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:45.960 we are in our space because they they played us first, They really played 658 00:59:46.039 --> 00:59:53.400 us first, and neither flooded our country with people. I want to put 659 00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:59.119 it that way. But religion is the game that's being played. That's the 660 00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:06.119 game of chest here. Okay, right, thank you for that. Memocerty, 661 01:00:06.159 --> 01:00:17.239 what's up, hey, jam I need my coffee? Memoker, do 662 01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:28.199 you want to talk or not on you? Could you make me a double 663 01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:32.599 shot coffee? Thank you appreciate it. I don't understand what why does this 664 01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:42.800 guy keep coping hopping on here. I don't want to talk putting a bunch 665 01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:45.840 of a bide in the crap up here, Mario, it's to me, 666 01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:57.760 Mario, there we go. What's up, dude, talk uncle with what's 667 01:00:57.800 --> 01:01:00.360 on your mind about his alm. I just want to know your view in 668 01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:05.639 terms of what do you think it is closer to the Christian view in terms 669 01:01:05.679 --> 01:01:10.360 of view of the word do you think Saclerism or Islam is closer? Because 670 01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:15.920 I have the impression that although Islam is quite that, I'm not quite sure 671 01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:22.400 anymore if given the current situation of our society, we wouldn't actually be better 672 01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:30.480 under some sort of Islamic views of Like, it seems uncertain me that I 673 01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:37.519 have today right wing young girls in France, like eighteen nineteen girls posting pictures 674 01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:44.800 off in Agia telling well, this is our Christian society against completely covered Islamic 675 01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:47.360 women, And I have a lot of people in the Christian births say yeah, 676 01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:52.920 they're right. I'm like, yeah, but I mean, you're not 677 01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:57.840 going to get this righteous society with Islam. So I don't know why people 678 01:01:57.880 --> 01:02:15.519 think they're going to get that. I mean, Socrates gotta on. Mute 679 01:02:19.400 --> 01:02:27.320 un mute Socrates. It's my first time on Twitter spaces, so thanks for 680 01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:30.440 bringing me on. I'm actually Jake's friend. I was hoping to hop on 681 01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:37.639 to try to help help bridge that. But yeah, okay, so what's 682 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:43.960 what's uh the epistemic answer? Yeah? So, so you were talking about 683 01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:47.239 the transcendental argument, which is that God is necessary to even have a foundation 684 01:02:47.400 --> 01:02:52.280 to have some kind of truth or understanding. I've I've heard of that. 685 01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:57.159 I've never gone to that argument in detail. I understand. Okay, so 686 01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:02.320 what's the answer on a histemology? So so I'm not clear why you would 687 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:07.960 need to have some kind of other entity, So so forget all of that. 688 01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:12.360 He said that he wanted to go with like a common sense approach to 689 01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.599 epistemology, and I said, how do we know that that's the right criteria 690 01:03:15.679 --> 01:03:19.920 truth? Mm hmm, Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't rest on like 691 01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:25.159 a common Okay, what would you rest on? I would I would rest 692 01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:30.519 on I mean, I guess it depends on how far you're trying to prove. 693 01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:34.039 If you're saying something like history, what happened in history? You could 694 01:03:34.039 --> 01:03:37.840 go with what's at the level that's verifiable, right, and so that's why 695 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.239 I ultimately, yeah, I was, I was saying, Ultimately, it's 696 01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:45.039 not a question of historical claims. It's a question of world views. Yep, 697 01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:51.960 yeah for for me. So so for me it's conceivable, like I 698 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:54.719 can imagine a world in which there is no God, but also I can 699 01:03:54.800 --> 01:03:59.400 have knowledge. Well, it doesn't really matter whether you can imagine that or 700 01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:03.360 not. What we needed is an argument, Well if if it's if it's 701 01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:09.840 possible for that world to exist, then it's not necessary for God to attend. 702 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.440 I'm I'm not sure that it is possible. So what what is your 703 01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:15.039 account of knowledge? If God doesn't exist? Give me, give me an 704 01:04:15.039 --> 01:04:20.920 account of knowledge, like a formal account. I mean, I have like 705 01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:28.840 a I. I I believe that I have memories. I believe that I 706 01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:32.000 have things that I that I believe to be true. I believe that I 707 01:04:32.039 --> 01:04:34.920 exist. There are things like you know, statements I can make. Are 708 01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:43.280 there are there moral absolutes at all? Can we know them? I wouldn't. 709 01:04:43.320 --> 01:04:47.440 I wouldn't say that I hold moral absolutes? I guess, so are 710 01:04:47.440 --> 01:04:53.000 there any absolutes at all? Are there any absolutes? I mean, I 711 01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:57.079 think. I think there's things that are that are defined. So things like 712 01:04:57.280 --> 01:05:02.119 logic or arithmetic or parts of math are defined that I think are are simply 713 01:05:02.199 --> 01:05:05.519 true. Okay, and on what basis should we well, on what basis 714 01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:11.679 do we believe that those things are simply true given given that they're defined. 715 01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:16.039 So if you have anything I defined is true anything under sorry to say it 716 01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:19.719 again, So just defining it makes it true. I'm asking what makes it 717 01:05:19.760 --> 01:05:28.000 true? Well, it's something isn't X isn't true because X is defined. 718 01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:30.960 So you said it's defined. That's what my question was, Why why does 719 01:05:31.000 --> 01:05:38.320 that make it true? No, So within a system that's defined, you 720 01:05:38.360 --> 01:05:42.440 can have things that are true. And is that the criteria knowledge? Why 721 01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:49.400 why would we accept that as our epistemic criteria? As are as our epistemic 722 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:54.480 criteria. I feel like there's a there's some particular meaning that you have. 723 01:05:55.280 --> 01:05:59.199 Yeah, like the criteria problem. You're not very familiar with the criteria problem. 724 01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:00.960 No, I'm not from the criteria. You're a philosophy man. You've 725 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:04.000 got a philosopher as your profile picture here, and you're not familiar with David 726 01:06:04.039 --> 01:06:09.840 Chism or Roderic Chism. No, I've never heard that name. Okay, 727 01:06:09.880 --> 01:06:12.760 what it's called the criteria problem. So the question is how do we have 728 01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:15.079 knowledge without presupposing a criteria of knowledge? And if we said that we have 729 01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:18.519 a criteria of knowledge, then we already assume that we have knowledge. So 730 01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:26.400 it's it's a classic problem and epistemology. Okay, can you can you give 731 01:06:26.480 --> 01:06:29.599 like a little bit of just a sense of what you mean by a criteria 732 01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:32.480 of knowledge? What would be a criteria of knowledge? What what gives us 733 01:06:32.639 --> 01:06:41.039 the grounding for true versus false beliefs or propositions? Right? Okay, okay, 734 01:06:41.079 --> 01:06:45.039 Okay, so that's that's perfect. So so so let me clarify what 735 01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:48.840 I'm about to explain. Isn't the only thing that I consider knowledge but within 736 01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:53.079 a subset of things. Okay, But and the question, but you're not 737 01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:56.440 understanding the question because it's prior to you just asserting these things. The question 738 01:06:56.519 --> 01:06:59.159 is how do we answering the question is how do we know that that's the 739 01:06:59.199 --> 01:07:02.480 case. Well, you haven't heard what I answer was. It's not going 740 01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:05.719 to matter what the answers are because you're not answering the criteria question. You're 741 01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:11.360 just stating a position. Well, I'm I'm giving. I'm giving a preamble 742 01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:14.440 to my answer to the criteria question. Do you know what the preamble or 743 01:07:15.639 --> 01:07:16.679 is it going to tell us why we ought to believe it? Or is 744 01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:23.280 it just more assertions? It's it's the opposite of an assertion. It's it's 745 01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:28.000 giving you more of an explanation my worldview. The degree to which that is 746 01:07:28.039 --> 01:07:30.159 that telling us why we ought to believe it? Or is that just an 747 01:07:30.199 --> 01:07:32.880 assertion? It's not an assertion? Okay? So why ought we believe it? 748 01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:39.639 Why ought you believe something that isn't an assertion? Your position? Why 749 01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:45.400 aren't we believe your position? Stop playing games? Well, would you like 750 01:07:45.440 --> 01:07:53.119 to know my position? Yes? Okay? So my position is that within 751 01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:59.159 a system that has definitions, there are things that can be true based on 752 01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:08.440 those definitions. Assertion by vaxium one and axiom assertions, assertions, assertions assertions? 753 01:08:09.400 --> 01:08:14.159 Where where's the ought why we believe this is the case? You said 754 01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:15.279 you weren't going to get just give me assertions. You said you're going to 755 01:08:15.279 --> 01:08:20.479 tell me why we ought to believe it? Why ought you believe? Okay? 756 01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:25.000 So taking a pistemology course and stop trying to be a dork and sound 757 01:08:25.039 --> 01:08:40.079 like you know it all. Go lord, what's up? I'm mute, 758 01:08:40.079 --> 01:08:48.560 go laud, go loud. Do you want to talk or not? Honest? 759 01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:50.600 Like? What why do you wait here? If you don't want to 760 01:08:50.600 --> 01:09:14.720 come on? Old w old time religion? Oh well, w yo yo? 761 01:09:15.479 --> 01:09:19.880 Can you hear me? Can you hear? Yes? Sir? Hello? 762 01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:24.239 Yeah? What's up? Man? What's on your mind? Hello? 763 01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:32.640 Hello? Alright? So can you hear me? Yes? Sorry sir? 764 01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:38.600 All right, sir, I've heard you talk. I hear you breathing a 765 01:09:38.640 --> 01:09:44.520 lot. Okay, awesome, come on, breathe at me, pervert. 766 01:09:45.760 --> 01:09:47.479 It's not like a pervert calling a woman is. I'm joking, man, 767 01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:56.439 you don't have to run away. Go lord, what's up? Hello? 768 01:09:56.760 --> 01:10:00.680 Can you hear me? Yes? Sir? Very sorry about that issues. 769 01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:04.600 So I understand this is a little bit outside of the topic today, but 770 01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:12.479 it's come up, the epistemic criteria problem. It's been a been talked about 771 01:10:12.479 --> 01:10:14.920 a lot. Uh. I was just curious, what, Like, I 772 01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:19.680 understand that I have a BA in philosophy, I did not study epmology. 773 01:10:20.239 --> 01:10:27.680 I understand there's like rationalism and skepticism and just broadly those those kind of schools, 774 01:10:27.720 --> 01:10:30.399 but I was wondering, like, what's the orthodox answer to that? 775 01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:34.880 Because I just obviously I went to a So I have a whole lot of 776 01:10:35.079 --> 01:10:39.439 if you want to go watch the fuller podcast that we've done. We've done 777 01:10:39.439 --> 01:10:44.359 probably ten podcasts on the Orthodox view of epistemology. We believe in a holistic 778 01:10:44.439 --> 01:10:45.600 view. Right. So the point, the whole point of all this is 779 01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:49.840 that philosophy, secular philosophy, atheist philosophy, materialus philosophy is a dead end. 780 01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:55.399 It doesn't get anywhere, and it can't even answer the possibility of knowledge 781 01:10:55.439 --> 01:11:00.720 at all. So the solution we argue is a revelational epistemology of the entire 782 01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:04.680 Christian world being paradigm, which gives an account for how knowledge is even possible. 783 01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:09.920 So it's not an argument about this or that specific claim, because it's 784 01:11:09.960 --> 01:11:15.439 about ultimate commitments, ultimate authority, ultimate principles. It's our whole paradigm that's 785 01:11:15.479 --> 01:11:20.479 at issue between an atheist and a Christian. So you used right, Okay, 786 01:11:20.760 --> 01:11:25.800 So you use tag to establish God's existence, and then from there we 787 01:11:25.880 --> 01:11:28.920 have a revelation to carry forward, right, Because it can't just be any 788 01:11:28.960 --> 01:11:32.439 God. There sometimes specific content. Yeah, and I think that the Christian 789 01:11:33.239 --> 01:11:38.960 deity, and not just a Christian duty, but the entire Christian paradigm actually 790 01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:46.760 answers many of these insoluble classic philosophical dilemmas and problems. Whether it's the criterion 791 01:11:46.800 --> 01:11:49.600 problem, or whether it's the problem the one the many, whether it's the 792 01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:56.399 question of universals, the debates with the nominalists, whether it's objective ethics, 793 01:11:57.359 --> 01:11:59.720 you know, all of these kinds of issues, the problem of an identity 794 01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:04.159 over time, whether it's the question of the existence of the self, whether 795 01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:11.680 it's you know, induction. All of those classic philosophical problems aren't problems if 796 01:12:11.680 --> 01:12:15.800 the Christian worldview is the case, because we have a basis to believe in 797 01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:19.119 the regularity of nature. We have a basis to believe that, you know, 798 01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:24.000 man has dignity and ethical norms because he's made in the image of God. 799 01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:28.199 There's duties, man has free will, et cetera. And when we 800 01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:34.520 begin to remove those principles, when we throw out things like tellos or causation, 801 01:12:34.800 --> 01:12:39.479 et cetera, et cetera, we have worldviews that begin to break down 802 01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:44.119 and destroy the possibility of knowledge. And a lot of loadsier people don't understand 803 01:12:44.119 --> 01:12:47.840 the difference between you can have knowledge and know things. That's different than giving 804 01:12:47.880 --> 01:12:51.359 an account for and given a justification for that knowledge. Okay, so people 805 01:12:51.359 --> 01:12:57.079 think that, well, I know things, and you're saying that if all 806 01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:00.359 my agies, I can't know anything good. No, that's not the argument. 807 01:13:00.359 --> 01:13:08.199 The arguments that you can't give a justification for the knowledge. Cipher mister 808 01:13:08.880 --> 01:13:14.880 Anderson, can you hear me? Yes, sir, Yeah, I think 809 01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:16.479 you're about your kind of answering my question. I was going to ask, 810 01:13:16.720 --> 01:13:21.640 but I'll just ask it again anyways, So you seem to believe that the 811 01:13:23.359 --> 01:13:28.680 Christian worldview is the correct worldview and that there is some sort of revelation that 812 01:13:28.760 --> 01:13:34.159 can happen through the study of some sort of what I'm sorry, let me 813 01:13:34.279 --> 01:13:45.520 let me just restateation nor revelation by studying Christian doctrine. What makes you so 814 01:13:45.640 --> 01:13:50.319 sure that studying Christian doctrine doctrine is the only way to get that rather than 815 01:13:50.359 --> 01:13:54.520 I don't know a Chic doctrine or whatever, and I'll take my question off. 816 01:13:55.279 --> 01:13:59.079 Yeah, No, that's a fair question. We have critiques that are 817 01:13:59.079 --> 01:14:04.359 pretty consistent for any kind of unitarian or diadic position or dualistic or Astrian type 818 01:14:04.359 --> 01:14:09.800 of position. Platonism is a type of a dualistic position. You could even 819 01:14:09.880 --> 01:14:15.199 argue Aristilianism ends up in a kind of diad dualist position. Those positions are 820 01:14:15.279 --> 01:14:18.560 so metaphysically deficient that they break down at a very basic level and also make 821 01:14:18.680 --> 01:14:24.119 knowledge impossible. So the rest of the argument. If you watch the talk 822 01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:28.279 that I did, for example, critiquing doctor ed Faser, I just posted 823 01:14:28.319 --> 01:14:30.720 a video I think on my timeline here on Twitter about why the Trinity is 824 01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:36.159 necessary. That's a specific, unique type of Christian metaphysic. When we get 825 01:14:36.159 --> 01:14:40.399 to the Trinity, the auction of creation, x Nilo, etcetera. All 826 01:14:40.399 --> 01:14:45.079 of those things are also part of solving or answering this dilemma or the dilemmas 827 01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:50.800 in the history of philosophy. So yes, Platonism unitarianism also failed to achieve 828 01:14:50.840 --> 01:15:00.720 that. OLW Trevor, do you want to on? If I'm a nitwit, 829 01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:03.119 you should be able to call in. There's the link right there. 830 01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:09.000 Jethro put the link for you, so feel free to call in. WELW 831 01:15:09.119 --> 01:15:14.279 want to try again? Sorry? Is my technical issue fixed? I can 832 01:15:14.319 --> 01:15:16.239 hear you? Can you hear me? Uh? Yeah? So I just 833 01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:23.000 want it's first quote, what your problem is with classical foundationalism and the Roman 834 01:15:23.000 --> 01:15:29.359 Catholic approach to apologetics. I mean, I probably covered it one hundred times, 835 01:15:29.359 --> 01:15:31.479 so if you want a fuller treatment, you can watch one hundred of 836 01:15:31.479 --> 01:15:36.560 the different critiques we've done. But I mean, classical foundationalism is a position 837 01:15:36.680 --> 01:15:42.560 that's self defeating, it's contradictory, it's inconsistent. It posits things, for 838 01:15:42.600 --> 01:15:46.880 example, self evident truths, and then it will oftentimes appeal to other things 839 01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:49.800 to back up self evident truths, which means that they're not self evident, 840 01:15:49.840 --> 01:15:54.439 which means that it's circular, which is the very thing that foundationalism rejects. 841 01:15:55.720 --> 01:16:00.640 It's not sufficient in terms of answering the post Enlightenment challenges to foundationalism. It 842 01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:05.720 just reasserts itself over and over and over as if there's no problem or no 843 01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:12.920 issue. So it can't really address skepticism. It can't address the criterion problem 844 01:16:12.960 --> 01:16:18.119 of Chisholm that we just referenced about twenty minutes ago. Okay, So then 845 01:16:18.159 --> 01:16:24.840 I would ask, like, how does the Transcendental document specifically like get to 846 01:16:24.840 --> 01:16:29.079 the Orthodox gods and not absolute divine simplicity that I'm a Roman Catholic. I 847 01:16:29.119 --> 01:16:33.359 believe in Well, the absolute divind simplicity is anti trinitarian first of all, 848 01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:39.279 so like it not consistent with the trinity. So why would you believe in 849 01:16:39.279 --> 01:16:44.199 absolute devind simplicity if you want to be a trinitarian. No, because you 850 01:16:45.319 --> 01:16:47.920 can't make distinctions within God. You can't make that as sense energy distinction. 851 01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:51.159 Well, that's cool assertion. But if you can't, if you can't make 852 01:16:51.199 --> 01:16:57.439 distinctions in God, then there's not three persons I read recently. Oh, 853 01:16:57.520 --> 01:17:01.760 you're read since energy distinction was made in you didn't even you didn't. That's 854 01:17:01.760 --> 01:17:04.079 a really good argument. Have you? Have you read basil is He in 855 01:17:04.119 --> 01:17:10.640 the fourteenth century? All right? So letter two thirty four is that? 856 01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:16.439 Is that the fourteenth century text? Right? So why are you trying to 857 01:17:16.520 --> 01:17:30.560 argue stuff you have no idea about? Honeybo un mute? Hello, hey 858 01:17:30.680 --> 01:17:38.880 Jay? My question if you posted that presupposing an entire ideological paradigm is the 859 01:17:38.920 --> 01:17:41.720 only way to make sense of the world, isn't that in itself roots and 860 01:17:41.800 --> 01:17:49.239 in assertions? No, it's it's explaining what we all do. So you 861 01:17:49.239 --> 01:17:54.239 could theoretically disagree with that, but you would be I think in a tougher 862 01:17:54.279 --> 01:17:58.600 position trying to explain that we the humans don't do that. I mean, 863 01:17:58.640 --> 01:18:01.359 you would be basically back at kind of a foundationalist or an evidentialist position, 864 01:18:01.479 --> 01:18:05.439 And so then I would just level the critiques of self evidence and foundationalism. 865 01:18:06.000 --> 01:18:14.920 But how is that not an assertion? It's part of an argument. But 866 01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:17.600 that's assertive as well, right, Yeah, I'm not critique. I'm not 867 01:18:17.640 --> 01:18:21.039 saying that the previous guy can't assert, but he never told us why we 868 01:18:21.079 --> 01:18:25.079 ought to believe that. Rather than just asserting it, I don't just make 869 01:18:25.119 --> 01:18:28.239 assertions. I also tell you why you ought to believe it. Yeah, 870 01:18:28.279 --> 01:18:30.359 but what you ought to believe you do on the basis of the criteria that 871 01:18:30.479 --> 01:18:35.199 come from the ideological paradigm that you presupposed. Yeah, but that's why it's 872 01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:39.560 a holistic comparison to paradigms. You can't escape that. Everybody's in that boat. 873 01:18:42.079 --> 01:18:44.640 I don't know that sounds like assertions to me, but I think so 874 01:18:45.000 --> 01:18:49.520 again, you didn't understand anything I said. Why did you leave? Are 875 01:18:49.560 --> 01:18:55.319 you there? Yeah? But I mean you don't understand the difference between an 876 01:18:55.359 --> 01:19:03.279 assertion and why you ought to believe it. I don't know exactly right. 877 01:19:03.359 --> 01:19:06.039 So again, maybe you guys should learn like some of the basics. But 878 01:19:06.119 --> 01:19:09.880 you guys, you guys are gonna come and have these arguments and argue with 879 01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:15.159 me and voice these challenges. It's like, dude, take go spend I 880 01:19:15.159 --> 01:19:17.960 don't know, put the fucking video games down and watch an epistemology course or 881 01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:33.520 something. Rolex, Rolex, I'm mute. Hey. So my question for 882 01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:40.279 you, Jay is specifically on Islam. So I was watching some Christian apologetics 883 01:19:40.319 --> 01:19:48.119 debate with Muslims, particularly the one with a rule on speakers corner, a 884 01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:51.520 rule from speakers corner. I don't know what that is or who that is 885 01:19:53.800 --> 01:19:59.319 anyway, go ahead, okay. So I noticed a lot of his argumentation 886 01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:04.399 is based on how Mohammad himself is a fictional character. So I found this 887 01:20:04.520 --> 01:20:11.000 interesting because from my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 888 01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:14.560 he was a historical character. Like according to like scholars, like you know, 889 01:20:14.640 --> 01:20:18.920 doctor Michael Penn, he in fact was inspired by you know, Orthodox 890 01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:23.640 Christianity, which makes sense at the time. You know, is Mohammed, 891 01:20:24.880 --> 01:20:31.239 Yeah, No, he's inspired by Nestorian Christianity. According to like Oxford companion 892 01:20:32.399 --> 01:20:36.039 Okay, John Damascus says that too. If I recall, Pelican says that 893 01:20:36.079 --> 01:20:41.560 too. I see, because I thought the way that they, you know, 894 01:20:41.680 --> 01:20:45.640 prostrate and like the praying seven times or five times a day was taken 895 01:20:45.680 --> 01:20:49.000 from early Christianity at the time. Yeah, No, Storian Christianity and influenced 896 01:20:49.079 --> 01:20:53.399 Mohammad pretty clearly. And I'm sure that they were doing a lot of those 897 01:20:53.439 --> 01:20:56.560 practices in the in the Church of the East and the fourth and or excuse 898 01:20:56.600 --> 01:21:00.760 me, in the in the seventh century. I see. So I guess 899 01:21:00.760 --> 01:21:05.640 my question is that, you know, do you think he is a historical 900 01:21:05.680 --> 01:21:10.680 record? I think you answered that already, And man, I don't. 901 01:21:10.760 --> 01:21:14.479 I don't. A lot a lot of people want to have these like Jesus 902 01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:18.319 never existed, Moses never existed, Muhammad never existed. I don't. I 903 01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:24.079 don't really even get into all of these historical evidentialist debates. You'll notice that 904 01:21:24.079 --> 01:21:30.039 almost everybody wants to keep things at the level of debating unverifiable historical things. 905 01:21:31.359 --> 01:21:35.079 So I don't. I just don't even worry with that because almost everything that 906 01:21:35.119 --> 01:21:39.840 I ever do, whether it's debating Muslims or atheist or Roman Catholics, it's 907 01:21:39.880 --> 01:21:45.640 systemic apologetics. I focus on systems and whether there are fundamental flaws and contradictory 908 01:21:45.680 --> 01:21:51.479 things at the base root programming of the system. If the systems fall apart, 909 01:21:51.720 --> 01:21:55.359 then I don't care about anything else, and nothing else in that system 910 01:21:55.399 --> 01:21:59.640 matters. It won't matter historically because the systems is false. And that's why 911 01:22:00.079 --> 01:22:04.279 system level apologetics. System level argumentation is so much stronger and so much more 912 01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:09.439 forceful than getting into all of these disputes where people say, well, this 913 01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:12.359 group claims this miracle, and this group claims this in history, and what 914 01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:16.239 about this claim and that claim? And it's a never ending spiral and cycle 915 01:22:16.399 --> 01:22:21.039 of claims. And I'm not saying that evidences don't matter. It's just that 916 01:22:21.079 --> 01:22:26.319 they have a place and ultimately what we find out. And I think if 917 01:22:26.359 --> 01:22:30.279 you argue and debate for twenty plus years, you start to realize that everybody 918 01:22:30.279 --> 01:22:36.760 interprets their information and their evidence is on the basis of the paradigm. So 919 01:22:36.920 --> 01:22:42.079 ultimately it's always just about what our conflicting paradigms are. That's why I always 920 01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:44.840 focus on that. So I don't have any I mean, is it possible 921 01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:46.359 that Muhammad didn't exist? Yeah, I just I guess that's possible. Maybe 922 01:22:46.399 --> 01:22:51.720 he's a conglomerate, maybe he's a bunch of different sectarian group people coming together, 923 01:22:53.239 --> 01:22:56.399 or maybe he was just a dude that flopped over and was possessed, 924 01:22:56.600 --> 01:23:00.800 as though some of the Hadiths say he thought he was possessed. I see 925 01:23:00.079 --> 01:23:03.039 no, Thank you so much, Jake. And the last thing I want 926 01:23:03.079 --> 01:23:08.039 to ask you was, would you ever go on like George Jenko's show here? 927 01:23:08.520 --> 01:23:11.159 He's been doing a lot of Christian content and I think, I mean, 928 01:23:11.199 --> 01:23:14.760 I don't, I don't know who that is, but who is he? 929 01:23:14.319 --> 01:23:17.079 He's one of those guys that was with Logan Paul for a long time, 930 01:23:17.119 --> 01:23:23.800 but he has that platform for like Christian speakers. I think Cliff was 931 01:23:23.840 --> 01:23:28.239 on his podcast recently. And yeah, I mean, I'm pretty I'm pretty 932 01:23:28.279 --> 01:23:31.359 open to I mean, I don't usually turn down podcasts unless they're just really 933 01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:35.319 weird, bizarre, creepy or whatever. So I'm usually pretty open to that. 934 01:23:35.399 --> 01:23:39.720 So I'll have to look into who he is. That boy, what's 935 01:23:39.800 --> 01:23:45.159 up, dude, there's a zillion podcast I can't keep up with everybody. 936 01:23:45.479 --> 01:23:49.439 I don't know who all the people are. That boy got on. I'm 937 01:23:49.479 --> 01:23:53.880 you man, what's up? Thank you guys for the super chats. We've 938 01:23:53.880 --> 01:23:59.600 got a nice thousand here. Alo. What's up man? Hey, it 939 01:23:59.680 --> 01:24:01.640 was up. I'm sorry. Pastor Randy Balls, how are you doing? 940 01:24:04.560 --> 01:24:06.840 What's on your mind? All those videos to my buddies, man, thank 941 01:24:06.880 --> 01:24:12.119 you they're great. Yeah. Hey, well, uh yeah, my wife 942 01:24:12.119 --> 01:24:15.760 and I have been attending Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox church near US for a 943 01:24:15.760 --> 01:24:20.680 few months now, and uh yeah, yeah it's been great. At first 944 01:24:20.920 --> 01:24:25.399 I was the one that was kind of like going headstrong in it, and 945 01:24:25.439 --> 01:24:30.279 now my wife has kind of gotten on board. And uh, I guess 946 01:24:30.520 --> 01:24:33.399 as time has gone on, I started wrestling with and I also I grew 947 01:24:33.479 --> 01:24:41.760 up nominal became more reformed as I got older. But now I find myself 948 01:24:41.800 --> 01:24:49.039 wrestling with the uh soteriology, Okay, because sola fide was one of those 949 01:24:49.079 --> 01:24:51.960 things that as a Protestant, as a reformed guy, that was something that 950 01:24:53.000 --> 01:24:55.560 was like a great comfort. And I feel like to a lot of Protestants 951 01:24:56.079 --> 01:25:00.600 that look at Orthodoxy, that's something that they wrestle with because they're comfort in 952 01:25:00.680 --> 01:25:04.119 solo fete. And so I'm just curious, like, how do Orthodox Christians 953 01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:09.640 have any sort of comfort and when they consider the end of their life, 954 01:25:10.399 --> 01:25:14.479 what does that look like, because it doesn't seem like there's something tangible to 955 01:25:14.920 --> 01:25:19.039 do that with. I mean, the purpose of the sacraments is to give 956 01:25:19.119 --> 01:25:24.119 us comfort and to give us assurance, like you know, the absolution and 957 01:25:24.600 --> 01:25:31.960 communion are means of that assurance of being in continual communion. So that's the 958 01:25:32.000 --> 01:25:36.399 purpose of those things. But I mean, even if you're a Protestant and 959 01:25:36.479 --> 01:25:42.680 you admit the possibility of self deception, which every Protestant I'm aware of believes 960 01:25:42.680 --> 01:25:45.079 that even if you believe in quote once they'd always saved an assurance of salvation, 961 01:25:45.279 --> 01:25:49.560 like I mean, you you still they they will still typically admit the 962 01:25:49.600 --> 01:25:56.079 possibility of being self deceived. And so there's not you're not really even in 963 01:25:56.199 --> 01:26:00.600 any better boat if you accept the Protestant doctrine of assurance of self. So 964 01:26:00.000 --> 01:26:05.840 yeah, that's fair, that's fair. So I guess there's a lot of 965 01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:10.039 clarity. Well, I don't want to say clarity. There's a lot of 966 01:26:10.359 --> 01:26:14.760 presumed clarity in the Protestant Reformed world about you know, what happens when you 967 01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:18.760 die. And then from what I've talked to the priest at the parish, 968 01:26:18.760 --> 01:26:24.039 I've been attending, you know, the the afterlife and what happens it's it 969 01:26:24.079 --> 01:26:28.079 seems kind of unclear, and I guess in a way that's kind of fair 970 01:26:28.119 --> 01:26:30.880 that it should be maybe unclear what happens. I think the Orthodox Church has 971 01:26:30.880 --> 01:26:36.119 a pretty fairly clear doctrine of the intermediate state. I mean, you could 972 01:26:36.159 --> 01:26:40.720 read The Soul after Death by Father Sara from Rose, which is a pretty 973 01:26:40.760 --> 01:26:44.239 good book on that. Roger Hass, what's up, dude, But thank 974 01:26:44.279 --> 01:26:59.119 you for that question. Hey, hey, so one question is when you 975 01:26:59.119 --> 01:27:05.880 talk about, uh, what was it transit the transcendental argument, would that 976 01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:13.800 fall under presuppositional apologetics corre Okay, okay, So that's just one question, 977 01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:23.680 just trying to get some categories worked up and then being a Protestant when so 978 01:27:23.800 --> 01:27:30.600 there, when it comes to sociology, specifically Calvinism, when you look at 979 01:27:30.600 --> 01:27:33.520 the so there's you know, one thing we could do is look at the 980 01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:40.359 biblical texts that speak to it, and there will be versus that Protestants will 981 01:27:40.680 --> 01:27:44.199 interpret or understand in this way and the Orthodox will interpret or understand it in 982 01:27:44.159 --> 01:27:51.159 another way. But but just from a from a more of a practical standpoint 983 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:58.439 of of how it how it works out in the life of a believer. 984 01:28:00.399 --> 01:28:04.359 Uh, what are the things that that like that jump out to you just 985 01:28:04.600 --> 01:28:10.640 like there's kind of like an Orthodox he has like a centi largical architecture, 986 01:28:11.039 --> 01:28:15.479 and the Calvinism has this this architecture and you kind of interact with it in 987 01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:18.600 a certain way as you go throughout your life. What are the what are 988 01:28:18.600 --> 01:28:25.560 the things from a practical standpoint that you that that jump out at you as 989 01:28:25.640 --> 01:28:30.079 the biggest differences or or and there may be so many of them, but 990 01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:34.359 even just just as a just as a way to interact around that subject, 991 01:28:34.560 --> 01:28:41.119 like even just one or two of the things that that you look at as 992 01:28:41.119 --> 01:28:48.239 an Orthodox person and say, well this, this wouldn't work because or this 993 01:28:49.199 --> 01:28:55.760 I struggle with even understanding Calvinism because of this, or or how they would 994 01:28:55.800 --> 01:28:57.800 work this out? Or do you do you do? You know what I 995 01:28:57.880 --> 01:29:01.439 mean? I'm a little lost. Are you just saying, like, can 996 01:29:01.479 --> 01:29:10.880 can you summarize what those questions? Okay? So like I could say, 997 01:29:12.319 --> 01:29:16.479 what is like what do you disagree with about Calvinism? I mean you could 998 01:29:16.520 --> 01:29:21.000 answer it, well, you know, the church fathers just disagree with it, 999 01:29:21.039 --> 01:29:25.159 and that's it. Or I don't. I don't. That's not how 1000 01:29:25.199 --> 01:29:28.000 I. I don't usually say, oh the church fathers disagree, I mean, 1001 01:29:28.039 --> 01:29:32.800 I give well, I don't. I don't. I don't. I've 1002 01:29:32.800 --> 01:29:36.960 not listened to I appreciate you and I and I've been tuning in more and 1003 01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:42.199 more, but I don't have a a deep bank of episodes that I've listened 1004 01:29:42.239 --> 01:29:46.399 to to that I can go back to about how you would respond to. 1005 01:29:46.560 --> 01:29:49.239 Right well, let me just say, let me just say, I got 1006 01:29:49.279 --> 01:29:54.119 you. Yeah, So right now I got pulled up to really good talks 1007 01:29:54.119 --> 01:29:58.720 that we did. One is a little briefer. It's an hour talk that 1008 01:29:58.800 --> 01:30:02.880 we did called the Air of Calvinism and Protestantism. That's a one hour podcast 1009 01:30:02.920 --> 01:30:06.880 where I laid out those issues. Then there above that is a part one 1010 01:30:06.920 --> 01:30:13.720 of a two part three hour, four hour talk on the fuller critique of 1011 01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:18.119 Calvinism. So check out these podcasts if you're watching on YouTube. They're right 1012 01:30:18.159 --> 01:30:27.479 here Calvinism Refuted and then the Transfigured Life podcast where we got into critiquing it 1013 01:30:27.520 --> 01:30:30.560 there. So there's two parts of that first one hence the number one, 1014 01:30:30.239 --> 01:30:33.800 and then there's a one hour one here. So those are good places to 1015 01:30:33.800 --> 01:30:45.399 start. I also did another critique with Cotel right here Calvinism refuted JDR Hotel. 1016 01:30:46.279 --> 01:30:50.479 This is another two and a half hour talk. This one goes beyond 1017 01:30:50.600 --> 01:30:57.439 just materiology and Christology. But ultimately the big issue I think that seals the 1018 01:30:57.479 --> 01:31:02.439 deal against Calvinism is Christology, because if Calvinism fails in terms of Christology, 1019 01:31:02.479 --> 01:31:10.560 it's over right. So I'm always searching for like the most systemic level destructive 1020 01:31:11.119 --> 01:31:15.359 argument, and I think for Calvinism it's Christology because if we're if we're basically 1021 01:31:15.359 --> 01:31:19.359 saying that the sun is damned and we're having to posit, what would amount 1022 01:31:19.439 --> 01:31:24.560 to anti trinitarian stuff? I mean, this is ridiculous. By the way, 1023 01:31:24.640 --> 01:31:26.399 So we got people over here in the YouTube chat. I don't know 1024 01:31:26.399 --> 01:31:28.840 where that guy what they got whining the whole time for like an hour. 1025 01:31:28.960 --> 01:31:30.680 Dude, come in debate, Like why are you sitting here whining in the 1026 01:31:30.760 --> 01:31:36.680 chat? Informed consent? Come debate, rumman, cavolxs where you guys at 1027 01:31:36.760 --> 01:31:44.199 come debate. The link is in the show description. It's a Twitter X 1028 01:31:44.359 --> 01:31:46.760 space you call in. Every time we do this, people are mystified, 1029 01:31:46.840 --> 01:31:50.039 like they have no idea. What do you call in what is Twitter? 1030 01:31:50.800 --> 01:31:54.239 Like nobody, We've been on this for like eight years. What do you 1031 01:31:54.279 --> 01:31:57.199 guys do it? Like? Where you guys been? It's like the boomers 1032 01:31:57.199 --> 01:32:00.119 that would be like, what's a live stream? Where you got my minutes 1033 01:32:00.159 --> 01:32:11.439 and music? I'm a little sassy today, Dimitrio's make it quick. I 1034 01:32:11.439 --> 01:32:18.079 gotta go t T to a little girl's room here in a second. I'm 1035 01:32:18.079 --> 01:32:38.319 your king LSR. What's up dude? Hello, Yes, sir, I 1036 01:32:38.359 --> 01:32:42.479 had a follow up question because I know that guy was unaware of the letter 1037 01:32:42.560 --> 01:32:47.239 two thirty four Saint Basil in my I'm sort of in a weird spot right 1038 01:32:47.239 --> 01:32:51.680 now between Catholicism and Orthodoxy because like half the Orthodox positions to me makes sense 1039 01:32:53.279 --> 01:32:56.439 half the Catholic positions. So it's a weird spot. But I want to 1040 01:32:56.479 --> 01:33:00.880 ask, I've been in that spot, so yeah, so especially the philosophical 1041 01:33:00.880 --> 01:33:04.920 ones, like that's why I call himself a business team counts, like because 1042 01:33:04.920 --> 01:33:09.760 the Philosophy foundation wasn't that that totally makes sense to near with the dux side. 1043 01:33:09.800 --> 01:33:12.760 But like, well, let me say first of all, what I 1044 01:33:12.760 --> 01:33:15.000 would recommend to you and to that guy if you go over here to my 1045 01:33:15.159 --> 01:33:20.359 YouTube channel on the very bottom you'll see, uh the metaphysics talks. But 1046 01:33:20.520 --> 01:33:25.399 in that list of talks if you click on it, I lecture through the 1047 01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:29.039 entirety of John Damascus is on the Orthodox Faith. Okay, John Damascus, 1048 01:33:29.439 --> 01:33:35.800 especially in book three, he really utilizes the essence sentergy distinction most clearly in 1049 01:33:35.880 --> 01:33:42.880 Christology. Okay, two wills and two energies in christ presupposes and is predicated 1050 01:33:42.920 --> 01:33:47.239 on the essenceentergy distinction. For Christology. You can't have a correct Christology without 1051 01:33:47.279 --> 01:33:51.840 the essen sentergy distinction. That six Council actually affirms this explicitly. So when 1052 01:33:51.880 --> 01:33:57.159 John Damascus is writing on the Orthodox Faith, he's looking back on the Sixth 1053 01:33:57.199 --> 01:34:01.399 Council and it's essence synergy distinction argument. Take in Christology from Saint Maximus against 1054 01:34:01.399 --> 01:34:05.399 Piros, and he cites it multiple times, especially book three. So this 1055 01:34:05.560 --> 01:34:12.159 is ultimately it's just absurd to argue that it's stupid to argue that the assen 1056 01:34:12.199 --> 01:34:15.560 sentari stinction is invented in the fourteenth century when it's the basis of the Six 1057 01:34:15.640 --> 01:34:18.960 councils ugmentation. Yeah, because that's that's the kind of thing I've been running 1058 01:34:19.000 --> 01:34:24.359 into before I get to my actual letter, my actual question at letter two 1059 01:34:24.399 --> 01:34:26.439 thirty four. I'll make it brief, but that's what I'm running into, 1060 01:34:26.520 --> 01:34:30.560 is the idea that well Mark of emphasis agreed when they were like when they 1061 01:34:30.560 --> 01:34:33.960 speak about the essence energy distinction, that he basically says to the lens. 1062 01:34:34.000 --> 01:34:38.279 Yet we're in agreement there, but it's really the filioqui that they depart. 1063 01:34:38.479 --> 01:34:41.319 He doesn't agree that, No, he doesn't. That's not true. Yeah, 1064 01:34:41.319 --> 01:34:44.199 it might be just something I read. There's a theory that you know, 1065 01:34:44.279 --> 01:34:46.479 neo Palmanism is not even what Paul must believe. You know, I'm 1066 01:34:46.520 --> 01:34:51.960 sure you're aware of this. I mean, doctor ticon Pino just put out 1067 01:34:51.960 --> 01:34:57.520 his PhD thesis on this topic. Everybody in the Orthodox world has read it. 1068 01:34:57.600 --> 01:35:00.399 I mean, yeah, that's a separate thing. But in wow, 1069 01:35:00.439 --> 01:35:03.399 is it a separate thing when that's it's on that very issue? What do 1070 01:35:03.399 --> 01:35:06.039 you mean? No, I mean, it's kept to my question on two 1071 01:35:06.119 --> 01:35:11.520 thirty Oh, okay, go ahead, Yeah. Yeah. So, uh 1072 01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:15.800 so two thirty four seems like strong evidence because not only does Saint Basil says 1073 01:35:16.079 --> 01:35:19.920 to say, you know, in the first paragraph speak about the actual essence 1074 01:35:19.960 --> 01:35:26.279 an interestinction, he goes on to say that if one considers this two we 1075 01:35:26.439 --> 01:35:30.000 actually I can find the quote. It's not it's not even just letter two 1076 01:35:30.039 --> 01:35:32.279 thirty four. That's just a very clear statement of it. Okay. So 1077 01:35:32.399 --> 01:35:35.560 I mean it's if you read all the Holy Spirit. The argument that he 1078 01:35:35.640 --> 01:35:40.039 makes is that the Holy Spirit has the same energy as the Father and the 1079 01:35:40.079 --> 01:35:43.199 Son, and energy signifies nature. Therefore he has the same nature. It's 1080 01:35:43.239 --> 01:35:45.159 like literally the whole argument of on the Holy Spirit by Basil. If you 1081 01:35:45.199 --> 01:35:47.520 read if you, if you read hold on, if you read against You, 1082 01:35:47.560 --> 01:35:51.439 excuse me. If you read against Unomius by Basil, he makes arguments 1083 01:35:51.479 --> 01:35:56.239 on the basis of the energies of the Spirit. If you read against You 1084 01:35:56.279 --> 01:36:00.079 Unomius by Sant gregan Nissa. He also argues many many times in the book. 1085 01:36:00.079 --> 01:36:04.000 It's like eight hundred pages on the essence inary distinction basis. So anybody 1086 01:36:04.039 --> 01:36:09.039 familiar with the Cappadocians and who has reading comprehension, has read the context. 1087 01:36:09.039 --> 01:36:11.680 I'm not talking about you, it's about the Roman Catholics. They would know 1088 01:36:11.800 --> 01:36:15.119 that the whole locus of the argumentation is literally premise on the essencenary sinction. 1089 01:36:15.199 --> 01:36:19.840 It's stupid. In fact, Saint Cyril says in the Two Letters Toistic Census, 1090 01:36:20.000 --> 01:36:24.600 he argues the essence inary distinction there to explain the Eucharist, Like, 1091 01:36:24.800 --> 01:36:28.640 what are you eating in the Eucharist if it's not the body, blood, 1092 01:36:28.680 --> 01:36:31.760 sohole and uncreated energy that's present there. Okay, So Romancalitics believe in the 1093 01:36:31.760 --> 01:36:35.039 real presence. They don't believe it's the essence of God. They don't believe 1094 01:36:35.039 --> 01:36:40.640 that it's They probably are going to argue that it's a created accident or a 1095 01:36:40.720 --> 01:36:44.520 supernatural created substance, whatever route they want to go. It doesn't matter because 1096 01:36:44.960 --> 01:36:48.640 ephesis has already settled that it's the uncreated energies. Saint Cyril argues consistently that 1097 01:36:48.760 --> 01:36:53.960 it's the energies that deify the human nature of Christ, the same energies that 1098 01:36:54.000 --> 01:36:59.039 deify the Eucharist. How could that be if there's no essence initistinction. And 1099 01:36:59.039 --> 01:37:01.880 if you read the debate between Palamas and barleyon, the whole debate shifts to 1100 01:37:02.479 --> 01:37:06.800 what are we participating in? And that's a much easier way to refute this. 1101 01:37:08.000 --> 01:37:13.000 Because Roman Catholics can talk all day long about formal distinctions and scodism and 1102 01:37:13.039 --> 01:37:15.600 this and that, Okay, let's set all that aside, and what are 1103 01:37:15.600 --> 01:37:19.600 we participating in because if it's an uncreated light that we're taking up, or 1104 01:37:19.680 --> 01:37:21.920 is it a created light? And by the way, the easiest way to 1105 01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:27.479 refute this is if you go through my Theophanes lecture. This is my new 1106 01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:30.079 way to approach this whole question. The Theophanes, clear as day, especially 1107 01:37:30.079 --> 01:37:35.840 in Leviticus, say that it's the glory of God that's present in those manifestations. 1108 01:37:36.079 --> 01:37:39.640 Well, that's not a creature. Unless a ro Macalochys wonist say that's 1109 01:37:39.640 --> 01:37:45.239 a creature. This undoes their whole ads doctrine. Yeah, I am familiar 1110 01:37:45.319 --> 01:37:48.880 with the sort of Franciscan halfway of participation. But I see what you mean. 1111 01:37:49.239 --> 01:37:54.640 Okay, but what are the Theophanies? Yeah, I see what you 1112 01:37:54.720 --> 01:38:00.159 mean, because if if if one were to posit that, yeah, look 1113 01:38:00.159 --> 01:38:02.560 at the strongest case in that because they have to be completely God without being 1114 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:09.199 as essence exactly. Yeah, and it multiple times over, especially in leveticas 1115 01:38:10.279 --> 01:38:14.560 it says the glory of the Lord appeared to all of Israel when the when 1116 01:38:14.560 --> 01:38:17.439 the cloud comes down. Okay, is that a creature? Is God's glory 1117 01:38:17.479 --> 01:38:20.600 a creature? God says he doesn't give his glory to creatures, right, 1118 01:38:21.640 --> 01:38:25.039 so I guess and no, and no Roman Calolk, by the way, 1119 01:38:25.039 --> 01:38:29.000 believes that it's the essence of God. No, yeah, that's true. 1120 01:38:29.600 --> 01:38:32.359 Uh well, I guess my what tends to happen with these patristics is, 1121 01:38:32.359 --> 01:38:38.920 and I will check what you've referenced beyond what I've already read. But what 1122 01:38:39.000 --> 01:38:44.039 tends to happen these patristics is one will attempt to read like, say, 1123 01:38:44.079 --> 01:38:47.439 it's letter two thirty four in the light of ads and say, yeah, 1124 01:38:47.439 --> 01:38:50.399 that's what Taylor Marshall did ten years ago. Yeah. Oh, I'm not 1125 01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:54.479 even a ware that he commented on this, but yeah, so he So 1126 01:38:54.680 --> 01:38:57.439 one would try to read it in the sense that you know, this is 1127 01:38:57.560 --> 01:39:00.279 speaking of this is how we know God. So it's simply an act of 1128 01:39:00.319 --> 01:39:02.800 the intellect. You see what I mean? Right? But see, the 1129 01:39:03.359 --> 01:39:09.680 argument that's made is that, especially the Cappadocians and Impelmas later on argues that 1130 01:39:10.439 --> 01:39:14.319 the same distinction between the persons is the same distinction, but the level of 1131 01:39:14.359 --> 01:39:17.600 distinction is the same as between the persons and the essence center distinction. Yeah, 1132 01:39:17.680 --> 01:39:23.640 that's that's because usually the report that I see made is that well, 1133 01:39:23.680 --> 01:39:27.239 we can make real distinctions between the persons because we affirm that each of the 1134 01:39:27.279 --> 01:39:31.920 persons are identical to the essence, whereas with the essen Centergy distinction, we're 1135 01:39:31.960 --> 01:39:35.239 saying that it is really distinct. So how is there not a higher divinity 1136 01:39:35.319 --> 01:39:39.720 that both are identical to you? See what I mean? It's literally no 1137 01:39:39.880 --> 01:39:45.640 different than the doctrine of hypo in hypostasis, which is that the divine essence 1138 01:39:45.840 --> 01:39:49.720 in endwells each of the persons fully. So if you say that parachorsis and 1139 01:39:50.039 --> 01:39:53.920 that the divine nature exists in the mode of the persons that have it in 1140 01:39:53.960 --> 01:39:58.479 the trinity, it's identical to the same position of saying that God is fully 1141 01:39:58.520 --> 01:40:01.079 present in every one of his operations, and his operations are really distinct, 1142 01:40:01.199 --> 01:40:08.560 So that there's literally no difference in the metaphysical toolkit and explanation that's used. 1143 01:40:09.279 --> 01:40:12.800 And by the way, that terminology again is not even the terminology of the 1144 01:40:12.840 --> 01:40:15.920 Fifth and sixth Council. If you look at the Fifth Council when it argues 1145 01:40:15.960 --> 01:40:23.279 about in hypostasis, it uses the notion of the divine essence being fully present 1146 01:40:23.520 --> 01:40:29.279 in each person without diminution separation or division. And so the same argument and 1147 01:40:29.359 --> 01:40:33.640 principle is applied in the medieval disputes, in the Byzantine disputes with the energies. 1148 01:40:34.239 --> 01:40:38.359 So just as the divine essence can be fully present in each of the 1149 01:40:38.439 --> 01:40:42.960 persons without diminuition, division or separation or hierarchy, as you said, so 1150 01:40:43.279 --> 01:40:46.119 likewise God can be fully present in every one of his energies without separation, 1151 01:40:46.239 --> 01:40:49.720 dimunition, or division. That's why even Maximus makes this argument about the energies 1152 01:40:49.960 --> 01:40:55.199 where he said that he says God is indivisibly divided amongst his infinite energies. 1153 01:40:57.439 --> 01:41:00.760 This is a famous Maximus quote on the energy. So I wasn't even speaking 1154 01:41:00.840 --> 01:41:05.039 in the case of hierarchy in the sense that the essence is the higher divinity. 1155 01:41:05.119 --> 01:41:09.720 What I meant is that I see the argument brought up which I can't 1156 01:41:09.760 --> 01:41:12.720 really answer, and that's why I'm in a weird spot. Is that if 1157 01:41:13.039 --> 01:41:16.760 the essence is God and the energy is God, do they necessarily positive divinity 1158 01:41:16.800 --> 01:41:20.720 that they both possess that are not identical to either. And the same way 1159 01:41:20.720 --> 01:41:25.119 that you know, Father is the essence, the Spirit is the essence, 1160 01:41:25.159 --> 01:41:30.560 the Son is the essence, but they're not each other. Stated again, 1161 01:41:30.600 --> 01:41:35.720 what's the question? Sorry? So what I mean is that the essence we 1162 01:41:35.800 --> 01:41:41.680 would agree that the essence is God, and so are his energies correct, 1163 01:41:43.079 --> 01:41:45.439 yes, but they're distinct from each other. So in the way in the 1164 01:41:45.720 --> 01:41:51.239 in the ADS system, how the oneness of God is maintained with the persons 1165 01:41:51.399 --> 01:41:55.960 is that they're each identical to his essence, yet not identical to each other. 1166 01:41:56.520 --> 01:42:01.239 So if the issue with the essence energy distinction that I'm troubling to go 1167 01:42:01.439 --> 01:42:06.000 through is the fact that if God's energy is not his essence, there's a 1168 01:42:06.079 --> 01:42:11.000 real distinction, as you put it, as real as the persons. What 1169 01:42:11.399 --> 01:42:15.000 is the divinity that both the energy and the essence share you know what I 1170 01:42:15.079 --> 01:42:19.920 mean, or not even share, but both can be identified with. Well, 1171 01:42:19.960 --> 01:42:25.760 the energy is manifest and proceed from the essence. So as Bezil says, 1172 01:42:25.840 --> 01:42:29.199 for example, again going back to his proof for the full deity of 1173 01:42:29.560 --> 01:42:33.680 the person's spirit, he argues, that energy signifies essence, so it proceeds 1174 01:42:33.760 --> 01:42:38.920 from that essence. But that doesn't mean essence act. It's persons that act. 1175 01:42:39.520 --> 01:42:43.479 Persons with natures act to do this or that thing. So maybe the 1176 01:42:43.520 --> 01:42:47.279 confusion is coming with the Roman Catholic idea that person is identical to nature. 1177 01:42:47.319 --> 01:42:51.600 We don't believe that exactly. John Damascus says that the root of all heresies 1178 01:42:51.680 --> 01:42:57.039 is to confuse nature in person. So the distinction here is again we would 1179 01:42:57.039 --> 01:43:00.479 actually argue another type of distinction and say, yeah, actually nature and person 1180 01:43:00.520 --> 01:43:05.039 are really distinct, as are the persons amongst themselves, as is the as 1181 01:43:05.079 --> 01:43:09.479 are the energies from the essence. All of those are quote real distinctions for 1182 01:43:09.640 --> 01:43:12.600 us. They're all that they're all the same. You wouldn't say that the 1183 01:43:12.720 --> 01:43:15.159 sun is the same thing as the divine essence. Well, again, there's 1184 01:43:15.239 --> 01:43:18.399 there's an is a predication, and it is of identity. So the son 1185 01:43:18.560 --> 01:43:24.399 has the divine essence because he receives it from the Father. But no, 1186 01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:28.920 we do not reduce. This is a reductionist, modalist move to reduce person 1187 01:43:28.960 --> 01:43:31.760 and nature. It's just another it's just another mistake of absolute divine simplicity. 1188 01:43:31.760 --> 01:43:35.880 And let me show you how that's an impossible position. If God is reducible 1189 01:43:35.920 --> 01:43:39.920 too, if the persons are reducible, too identical to the essence in a 1190 01:43:39.960 --> 01:43:45.079 strict identitarian sense, then how do you have one hypostasis entering into time and 1191 01:43:45.159 --> 01:43:51.079 space and the other two not. Yeah, that the incarnation always seemed puzzling 1192 01:43:51.439 --> 01:43:58.119 exactly because an absolute divine simplicity being who is pure act, reduced to his 1193 01:43:58.239 --> 01:44:02.640 own essence as pure act, cannot be incarnate in time and space in one 1194 01:44:02.760 --> 01:44:05.960 mode, in one person where the other two persons are not. It undoes 1195 01:44:06.199 --> 01:44:11.399 the incarnation. That's why in the Suma, Thomas says that we have to 1196 01:44:11.439 --> 01:44:15.760 predicate that any of the persons could have become incarnate. Correct, And that's 1197 01:44:15.800 --> 01:44:20.199 false, that's totally that's absolutely against orthodoxy because Jesus says that no one has 1198 01:44:20.239 --> 01:44:24.279 seen the Father at any time. If no one has seen the Father at 1199 01:44:24.279 --> 01:44:27.159 any time, who are all these theophanies throughout the old So in other words, 1200 01:44:27.319 --> 01:44:30.520 we're just totally divorced from the Hebrew Bible, which is the crazy part. 1201 01:44:31.279 --> 01:44:35.119 Well, well, I think he's saying could not necessarily have, but 1202 01:44:35.159 --> 01:44:38.760 I don't see how. No, no, no, no. But again, 1203 01:44:38.840 --> 01:44:41.760 the argument, if you read John five through nine, the argument Jesus 1204 01:44:41.840 --> 01:44:45.800 makes is that no one ever can see the Father. The Father doesn't become 1205 01:44:45.840 --> 01:44:50.239 incarnate. So who was Moses talking to on Mount Sini? Nexcess thirty three, 1206 01:44:50.279 --> 01:44:55.520 who is Abraham eating a meal with right And Jesus says in John eight 1207 01:44:55.680 --> 01:44:59.079 that I was there with Abraham. Oh no, yeah, I hold that 1208 01:44:59.279 --> 01:45:01.680 right. The was the Christ he cannot hold up. Yeah, yeah, 1209 01:45:01.800 --> 01:45:05.159 so I think. But if you want a specific text, I think probably 1210 01:45:05.199 --> 01:45:11.640 the best at this point on that issue would be the I mean, you 1211 01:45:11.680 --> 01:45:15.439 could read Penos text, it's pretty complicated, but actually the Palamite Synods have 1212 01:45:15.600 --> 01:45:19.199 been translated by Norman Russell uh and I just finished reading all four of those 1213 01:45:19.279 --> 01:45:23.199 a couple of months ago. That's a good thing to read. I would 1214 01:45:23.239 --> 01:45:27.680 read John Damascus is on the Orthodox Faith, particularly book three, because you'll 1215 01:45:27.760 --> 01:45:30.199 notice if you read book one on the Orthodox Faith he does positive usen sentergy 1216 01:45:30.279 --> 01:45:36.039 sinction, but he actually in book three, when he gets to Christology, 1217 01:45:38.560 --> 01:45:43.239 he lets the rubber hit the road by applying the energies in a very precise, 1218 01:45:43.720 --> 01:45:47.479 much clearer way in Christology than what we see just in talking about the 1219 01:45:47.560 --> 01:45:51.880 trinity in chapter one. So book three is really key, particularly chapter fifteen, 1220 01:45:51.920 --> 01:45:56.039 because if you read book three fifteen, that's literally where he starts talking 1221 01:45:56.079 --> 01:46:00.960 about the energies in Christ. He talks about even the dif cation of the 1222 01:46:00.079 --> 01:46:05.479 flesh of Christ via his uncreated immortal life. Well, now what is that? 1223 01:46:06.000 --> 01:46:10.520 That's not the divine essence? What is it? Now? I've also, 1224 01:46:10.680 --> 01:46:15.600 in many, many times on Twitter put up the quotes from Aquinas. 1225 01:46:15.279 --> 01:46:18.199 Where have you seen? I think it's Dave Veritati is the work, but 1226 01:46:18.279 --> 01:46:24.560 it's in the Ralph mcinnery collection of Tomistic stuff. Have you seen where Aquinas 1227 01:46:25.159 --> 01:46:31.520 deals with John Damascus's essence indistinction and rejects it. I think I'm familiar when 1228 01:46:31.560 --> 01:46:35.039 he says we have to take he posits a heat. Right afterwards into the 1229 01:46:35.039 --> 01:46:39.000 objection, he posits some that we have. I think Augustin was clearer on 1230 01:46:39.119 --> 01:46:43.359 this. Something along the Well, do you know who he cites? No, 1231 01:46:44.319 --> 01:46:48.399 probably he cites Mymones. Yeah, he said. He says as as 1232 01:46:48.520 --> 01:46:56.039 a rabbi. Moses says God can't have real distinctions because that would mean that 1233 01:46:56.079 --> 01:47:00.000 God has accidents. Okay, but you see energies and energies are not acts. 1234 01:47:00.399 --> 01:47:05.199 But that's relevant because he's explicitly arguing and rejecting John Damascus's essence intistinction. 1235 01:47:05.319 --> 01:47:11.600 That means us that lets us know that Aquinas understands John Damascus to be teaching 1236 01:47:11.640 --> 01:47:15.079 the essenceistinction and that he rejects it. So every time a Roman Catholic goes 1237 01:47:15.119 --> 01:47:18.560 and tries to re reword John Damascus as if he's teaching some sort of only 1238 01:47:18.680 --> 01:47:21.840 conceptual distinction for the energies as preposterous. By the way, how do you 1239 01:47:21.880 --> 01:47:28.000 participate in a conception to be deified? Is it new conceptions deifias? Or 1240 01:47:28.039 --> 01:47:32.159 does it? Is it the uncreated glory of John seventeen that Jesus came to 1241 01:47:32.239 --> 01:47:36.960 bring. Yeah, I mean to be frank with you, when I I, 1242 01:47:39.039 --> 01:47:42.880 mostly through Jonathan Pejo, was very close to converting to Orthodoxy because it 1243 01:47:43.079 --> 01:47:46.880 made more intrinsic sense in like I thought the essence energy distinction was. I 1244 01:47:47.000 --> 01:47:50.520 was like, oh, this is a really cool position because it's it separates 1245 01:47:50.680 --> 01:47:56.279 the quote unquote monotheistic fates. You know, yeah, right. But but 1246 01:47:56.399 --> 01:47:58.800 then what I ran into is I just couldn't respond to the you know, 1247 01:47:58.840 --> 01:48:01.880 the polytheism, those kinds of objections, and I'm you know, I'm like, 1248 01:48:02.439 --> 01:48:05.640 well, maybe this couldn't been the faith of the Apostles because it was 1249 01:48:06.840 --> 01:48:11.359 YadA YadA, Yada's Well, if you read if you read Bradshaw's book Arisol 1250 01:48:11.359 --> 01:48:15.880 East and West. The first three chapters deals with this notion of what the 1251 01:48:16.000 --> 01:48:23.319 Cappadocians considered divine simplicity to be, and they don't first and foremost start with 1252 01:48:23.840 --> 01:48:31.000 the Plutinian Augustinian Originist definition of simplicity. So if you read Platinis Origin and 1253 01:48:31.039 --> 01:48:38.560 First Principles Book one in Augustine, they all have a very platonic neoplatonic definition 1254 01:48:38.680 --> 01:48:42.520 of what simplicity is and must be. And for them, it's pretty it's 1255 01:48:42.560 --> 01:48:45.319 pretty much cash out as no distinctions. So it's an absolute unity with no 1256 01:48:45.439 --> 01:48:51.439 distinctions. That's not that's not the move that the Cappadocians make when they argue 1257 01:48:51.479 --> 01:48:58.680 the triad and why it's not three gods. For them, the first principle 1258 01:48:58.840 --> 01:49:01.439 is that God is not acted upon. God acts, but is not acted 1259 01:49:01.520 --> 01:49:05.439 upon, and then they move to things like that he's not composed, he's 1260 01:49:05.520 --> 01:49:10.199 not in time and space in his essence, he's not changeable or passable, 1261 01:49:10.680 --> 01:49:15.000 right, And they do that because they argue that no triad is how we 1262 01:49:15.119 --> 01:49:18.920 begin with God. We don't begin with the order of theology from the divine 1263 01:49:19.000 --> 01:49:25.920 essence. We begin with the person of the Father and the three the two 1264 01:49:26.000 --> 01:49:29.199 that come from the Father, and that it's revealed that he is one. 1265 01:49:29.560 --> 01:49:31.319 Right, So we don't begin with essence. We begin with the Father. 1266 01:49:31.479 --> 01:49:35.119 The Father is the source of unity, not the divine essence itself. We 1267 01:49:35.199 --> 01:49:42.039 don't know the divine essence, right, So that God is one, well, 1268 01:49:42.159 --> 01:49:45.000 that God is one is revealed to us through there being one Father. 1269 01:49:45.239 --> 01:49:48.479 That's why the creed actually starts with unity in the person of the Father, 1270 01:49:48.600 --> 01:49:53.199 not the divine essence. We believe in one God, the divine Essence. 1271 01:49:53.359 --> 01:49:58.000 No, exactly. So it's monarchical trinitarianism. And if you follow through consistently, 1272 01:49:58.119 --> 01:50:01.640 if you watch doctor bo Brandson's lectures on an article tranitarianism from the Capitocians, 1273 01:50:01.920 --> 01:50:06.000 it will lead you to the essen centeris stinction because it's not premised on 1274 01:50:08.199 --> 01:50:12.640 assuming a metaphysical simplicity that we then have to figure out how there's distinctions in. 1275 01:50:13.239 --> 01:50:15.279 It starts with the person of the Father as the principle of unity, 1276 01:50:15.319 --> 01:50:19.399 as the capit Doocians say, and then it moves to the triad revealed via 1277 01:50:19.479 --> 01:50:23.600 the energies. So it's a totally different order of theology. Yeah, I 1278 01:50:23.680 --> 01:50:28.239 see what you mean. It's almost like because it's almost like you're speaking of 1279 01:50:28.319 --> 01:50:31.600 Plato's divine architect and then seeing how there can be the Trinity with you. 1280 01:50:31.720 --> 01:50:36.520 Now, that's literally where so when Platonis defines simplicity, and it's the same 1281 01:50:36.640 --> 01:50:41.279 literally, the same definition used by Origin and First Principles and by Augustine and 1282 01:50:41.359 --> 01:50:46.600 on the Trinity, and also in Confessions, it's literally that it's the Platonic 1283 01:50:46.680 --> 01:50:50.760 idea of what simplicity is. And that's not what the capd Doceians do. 1284 01:50:50.840 --> 01:50:54.399 They don't say if you read the Rodi Galwitz thesis, which I did a 1285 01:50:54.439 --> 01:51:00.560 whole lecture on Raetagalwitz basically just goes through all the church fathers prior to the 1286 01:51:00.600 --> 01:51:05.920 Cappadocians and then focuses mainly on Basil and Basil's idea of simplicity, and he 1287 01:51:06.279 --> 01:51:11.119 points out that like the it's it's the essence center. Distinction is the only 1288 01:51:11.199 --> 01:51:15.520 way to know God in Basil. And would you chalk that up to the 1289 01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:19.439 historicity being that Christianity was more, you know, aboriginal to the Greek world. 1290 01:51:19.880 --> 01:51:26.720 Whereas Augustin himself even admits that when he reconcile Neoplatonism with Christianity, that's 1291 01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:30.159 when he converted. I think that's part of the picture. But I actually 1292 01:51:30.239 --> 01:51:33.439 think that, as doctor Bradshaw argues in his in his article and essays, 1293 01:51:33.800 --> 01:51:39.880 no, it's actually Hebrew. The Orthodox position is faithful to the Hebrew revelation 1294 01:51:40.760 --> 01:51:44.560 because the acids entergy sinction a lah, doctor Bradshaw, is what's in Exodus. 1295 01:51:45.720 --> 01:51:46.239 No, no, no, that's what I mean. I just mean 1296 01:51:46.279 --> 01:51:51.199 that Christianity, like literally through Paul, moved to the Greek world, whereas 1297 01:51:51.960 --> 01:51:56.560 the more western world of you know what what at that time was Roman, 1298 01:51:56.640 --> 01:51:58.920 France and Italy. Oh, I see you're saying, yeah, yeah. 1299 01:51:59.399 --> 01:52:03.600 Bradshaw has a good point on this where he argues that in Greek there was 1300 01:52:03.720 --> 01:52:11.039 actually more terminology and toolkit to make the distinction between essence energy and that in 1301 01:52:11.239 --> 01:52:15.039 Latin they don't even have that toolkit, so it didn't make sense to them. 1302 01:52:15.920 --> 01:52:17.119 Yeah. All right, Well, I don't want to take up too 1303 01:52:17.159 --> 01:52:19.199 much of your time, but I'll definitely No, those are great questions. 1304 01:52:19.239 --> 01:52:23.680 Yeah, definitely check out those things that I mentioned there to appreciate those questions. 1305 01:52:23.720 --> 01:52:33.359 There. Let's see, welcome father Deacon. Let's see, so it's 1306 01:52:33.479 --> 01:52:39.680 an open discussion. We got an atheist coming on, Father deacon or either 1307 01:52:42.960 --> 01:53:03.079 I'm mute FDA area there can you I mute Hello. I can't hear anybody 1308 01:53:03.159 --> 01:53:12.760 so far. I'm gonna have to go to the little girls room. So 1309 01:53:12.960 --> 01:53:15.479 if you would just everybody hold on a second, I'll be right back. 1310 01:53:15.079 --> 01:53:18.960 Do watch this wonderful, beautiful ad that I have for you, guys, 1311 01:53:20.439 --> 01:53:26.119 and that is our show sponsor. That is the Bazed Awesome company that you 1312 01:53:26.199 --> 01:53:30.840 see me wearing here across my chest. I'm gonna put you on something crazy 1313 01:53:30.000 --> 01:53:35.399 real quick. Most of these zoomer Jimbros are consuming macro guzzling synthetic dies and 1314 01:53:35.520 --> 01:53:40.880 synthetic sweeteners on the daily. They don't even know it. Goofy af, 1315 01:53:41.159 --> 01:53:44.920 There's nothing great about that. Do not listen any further unless you are an 1316 01:53:44.960 --> 01:53:48.279 Alpha or Sigma male. This is important and there could be consequences. 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In 1340 01:55:47.680 --> 01:55:56.399 fact, I think the star of the conference was doctor Nathan Jacobs, who's 1341 01:55:56.680 --> 01:56:08.319 written with doctor David and he basically gave a whole breakdown of where Western or 1342 01:56:08.359 --> 01:56:14.680 where the West went wrong with their theology. Started with Augustine. We went 1343 01:56:14.760 --> 01:56:19.800 into the christophany, everything you were saying, and he went into essence, 1344 01:56:19.960 --> 01:56:27.640 energies, distinction. How this resolved the problem. What was really amazing about 1345 01:56:27.680 --> 01:56:30.399 what he did is everything that we've been saying for years, and these are 1346 01:56:30.439 --> 01:56:38.119 difficult concepts, he just broke down layer by layer and a really approachable way 1347 01:56:38.800 --> 01:56:44.760 of you know, why did they come up with created grace? What happened 1348 01:56:45.640 --> 01:56:49.239 tying into Greek philosophy? Why did they come up with this Augustinian divine simplicity? 1349 01:56:49.319 --> 01:56:55.279 And what kind of impact that had, and then ultimately tied it into 1350 01:56:56.880 --> 01:57:04.520 why is their notion of anthropology's faulty? Good? Yeah, the thoryology everything, 1351 01:57:05.319 --> 01:57:11.279 like the whole history of the collapse of Western theology and its problems in 1352 01:57:11.399 --> 01:57:19.079 Rome. He just went through the whole historical in philosophical analysis of in a 1353 01:57:19.119 --> 01:57:23.960 way that people who had never even heard of it got it. Yeah. 1354 01:57:23.960 --> 01:57:29.239 I mean, let's just look at how removed from the actual text that system 1355 01:57:29.399 --> 01:57:32.079 is. Right, Aaron lifted his hands towards the people and blessed them, 1356 01:57:32.159 --> 01:57:35.760 and came down from the offering of the sin offering and the burnt offering and 1357 01:57:35.800 --> 01:57:40.359 the peace offering. Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle meeting and came out 1358 01:57:40.399 --> 01:57:44.560 and blessed the people. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the 1359 01:57:44.760 --> 01:57:48.039 people, and fire came out from before the Lord and consumed the burnt offering 1360 01:57:48.119 --> 01:57:51.439 on the altar. Then all the people saw it, and they shouted, 1361 01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:57.560 and they fell prostrate on their faces. So notice in this text very clearly 1362 01:57:59.239 --> 01:58:03.960 that the theophany here is called the Glory of the Lord. So it's not 1363 01:58:04.079 --> 01:58:10.239 created and no Roman Catholic believes that the divine essence is in time and space, 1364 01:58:10.359 --> 01:58:14.479 and they don't believe that it's created. This is an ender for that 1365 01:58:14.560 --> 01:58:16.920 whole stupid position. And as I said a thousand times, and as that 1366 01:58:17.000 --> 01:58:20.439 guy that was just on here realized if you heard him say it, like, 1367 01:58:20.840 --> 01:58:26.000 if you have a problem with this with the Theophanes and the Old Testament, 1368 01:58:26.960 --> 01:58:29.520 then doesn't it stand the reason that you're also going to have a problem 1369 01:58:29.600 --> 01:58:34.960 with the incarnation because it's just another type of theophany. It's one hypostasis in 1370 01:58:35.039 --> 01:58:39.600 time and space. The other two hypostaces are not in time and space. 1371 01:58:40.239 --> 01:58:44.800 And so this whole absolute divine simplicity, reducing God to his essence and to 1372 01:58:44.960 --> 01:58:50.800 pure act literally makes this impossible. When they reject the position of God in 1373 01:58:50.920 --> 01:58:56.159 time and space or the uncreated in time and space like this, they don't 1374 01:58:56.159 --> 01:59:01.479 even realize they're undercutting their own incarnation position. So it's stupid what we brought 1375 01:59:01.560 --> 01:59:05.479 up to. So during Q and A, after he explained this, I 1376 01:59:05.560 --> 01:59:10.359 went up because we had two philosophers that were able to talk about this, 1377 01:59:11.279 --> 01:59:15.319 and and the Q and A were able to draw a connection to this is 1378 01:59:15.520 --> 01:59:20.520 precisely because the Muslims are stuck in the same paradigm. Yeah, that they 1379 01:59:20.720 --> 01:59:25.960 end up basically saying, why do they have a problem with the incarnation? 1380 01:59:27.680 --> 01:59:31.520 God can't enter into space and time, he can't be and so that was 1381 01:59:31.560 --> 01:59:36.640 an interesting Yeah, they're more consistent if God. If God is an absolutely 1382 01:59:36.680 --> 01:59:42.319 simple essence and he's reduced to that, then an absolutely simple essence doesn't come 1383 01:59:42.359 --> 01:59:45.520 in the time of space. And Muslims are more consistent than Tonus. Yeah, 1384 01:59:46.279 --> 01:59:53.039 great point. Also another great point too, is it destroys the notion 1385 01:59:53.159 --> 02:00:00.840 of the trinity too, because we went into a discussion about and you see 1386 02:00:00.880 --> 02:00:05.439 this in the Reformers, because there was also a critique of Calvins Wingley and 1387 02:00:05.520 --> 02:00:13.640 all these guys at Athos. They don't have the monarchy of the father right, 1388 02:00:13.800 --> 02:00:16.800 and so they actually have to say that essence is Yes, so detached 1389 02:00:17.000 --> 02:00:23.239 essence apart from person is the cause of the persons. I actually, yeah, 1390 02:00:23.560 --> 02:00:28.439 you'll love this. But the Deacon, because I just read in this 1391 02:00:30.720 --> 02:00:34.399 Uh So we were on a two week road trip and I got the chance 1392 02:00:34.479 --> 02:00:41.760 to read probably three fourths of this book The Cambridge Companion to Western Mysticism and 1393 02:00:41.920 --> 02:00:47.239 Esotericism, and a couple of chapters dealt with medieval Latin mystics, and I 1394 02:00:47.279 --> 02:00:49.199 didn't actually think it was going to be that interesting. I thought it was 1395 02:00:49.239 --> 02:00:53.279 gonna be kind of weird and boring. But no, it's actually very relevant 1396 02:00:53.399 --> 02:01:00.399 to illustrating this very issue that medieval Roman Catholicism was constantly struggling between, on 1397 02:01:00.479 --> 02:01:04.479 the one hand, their mystics and the pension that the mystics had for quote, 1398 02:01:04.560 --> 02:01:10.800 union with God and then being condemned by the Church because of a positing 1399 02:01:10.840 --> 02:01:15.119 a quote a real union. And I'm not saying those mystics were Orthodox, 1400 02:01:15.239 --> 02:01:18.800 but they were actually hitting at one of the points that an absolutely simple essence 1401 02:01:19.199 --> 02:01:25.760 can't give, which is real participation. So the mystics were critiquing the scholastics 1402 02:01:26.199 --> 02:01:30.199 and reacting against it, but that what they were searching for is what orthodox 1403 02:01:30.239 --> 02:01:31.560 he had. I'm not saying they actually had it, but they were looking 1404 02:01:31.680 --> 02:01:34.279 for something that was a problem because it's like, well, wait, a 1405 02:01:34.279 --> 02:01:38.680 minutef God's is absolutely simple essence. I can't be united to him. I 1406 02:01:38.760 --> 02:01:43.119 can only be united to him by analogy or by a participation in some creature 1407 02:01:43.159 --> 02:01:46.399 that's analogous to him, created grace or whatever. And so what happened is 1408 02:01:46.479 --> 02:01:54.760 the medieval mystics in the Latin Church tended towards pantheism, ecstasy, henosis, 1409 02:01:55.520 --> 02:01:58.960 and the notion of a flight of the soul away from the body, towards 1410 02:02:00.079 --> 02:02:04.960 Neoplatonian union, right, so they had to constantly they were going back. 1411 02:02:04.960 --> 02:02:10.640 It's dialectics what I'm saying. You either get this pantheistic emerging into God with 1412 02:02:11.359 --> 02:02:15.319 meister Eckhart. Who are the medieval mystics here to talk about this a Regina, 1413 02:02:15.560 --> 02:02:24.199 Meister Eckhart, Jean Garson, Nicholas of Cusa. These are all mystics 1414 02:02:24.920 --> 02:02:30.479 who are unsatisfied with scholasticism. And while they're not getting the essence indistinction part 1415 02:02:30.600 --> 02:02:35.800 right, they're looking for a real union that the created grace doesn't give them. 1416 02:02:35.840 --> 02:02:40.439 Isn't that interesting? Yeah, we just discussed that too. It's like 1417 02:02:41.159 --> 02:02:46.199 for the West, that's the only way you can go h dialectics. And 1418 02:02:46.279 --> 02:02:54.760 not only that too. What was really interesting, it was incredible all the 1419 02:02:54.880 --> 02:03:01.920 haters, right, all the people pushing Penal's substitutionary atonement are stinning original sin. 1420 02:03:02.399 --> 02:03:05.199 I mean, we covered it all like I would have been great for 1421 02:03:05.319 --> 02:03:11.439 them to hear. And why Augustine in the West all the way going through 1422 02:03:11.760 --> 02:03:19.079 even medieval times and Scholasticism couldn't get the whole will and like this back and 1423 02:03:19.199 --> 02:03:24.560 forth between Pelagian it's like, well, Augustine's wrong on this, but if 1424 02:03:24.560 --> 02:03:27.159 you try to correct now, all of a sudden you're a Pelagian, right. 1425 02:03:27.439 --> 02:03:31.399 And they had no kind of paradigm to resolve these problems. The entire 1426 02:03:31.560 --> 02:03:35.479 history of the West is just going back and forth, falling into either one 1427 02:03:35.520 --> 02:03:40.279 of these kind of dialectics, like you said, with either this kind of 1428 02:03:40.640 --> 02:03:49.079 the mysticism and kind of collapsing intomonism, or or dealing with uh ceteria. Sorry,