1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:56,000 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:56,679 --> 00:01:40,280 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:53,799 --> 00:02:30,120 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:02:30,560 --> 00:03:09,639 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 5 00:03:12,080 --> 00:04:00,479 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 6 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:56,800 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 7 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:06,680 All right, what's up to all you dorks, all you nerds, all 8 00:05:06,759 --> 00:05:16,439 you players, pimps, hustlers. Welcome to another open forum. Back in 9 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:26,879 the saddle, back in my throne, back on my purple throne. I 10 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:34,560 got my espressos, I got my sassy attitude, and I got a bunch 11 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:43,560 of goofballs ready to go, a bunch of goobers. We took a two 12 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,040 week. It took two weeks to drive to Vegas and back. That was 13 00:05:46,079 --> 00:05:50,800 longer than I thought. It was a little rough, but it was also 14 00:05:51,000 --> 00:06:00,839 fun and a lot of adventures old. In one adventure, we had a 15 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:08,199 nice three or four hour road debate. Uh and for some unexplained reason, 16 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:18,600 just like when Alex was on his spaces Elon's space Twitter space thing caused me 17 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:25,000 to have a bizarre lisp. I just want everybody to rest assured. I 18 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,560 did not suddenly turn into a skotls man. I do not have I do 19 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,680 not. I don't have a When you heard me get baking and dsh gywas 20 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:42,199 because of your telephone. It was not because I. I guess, no 21 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:48,480 worries. My beautiful golden baritone at all times. Voice is still here. 22 00:06:49,319 --> 00:06:57,160 Ladies, don't worry. It's still there. It's not gone. Before I 23 00:06:57,199 --> 00:06:59,800 met Jamie, girls would say, I like your voice. You have a 24 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,319 great voice. I guess I'll take it. I thought maybe I have better 25 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:11,839 looking qualities elsewhere, such as my fabio hair, such as my amazing cap 26 00:07:11,959 --> 00:07:17,279 muscles. Who knows, who knows, But I guess if voices all I 27 00:07:17,319 --> 00:07:20,519 got, that's all I got. So that's why I can't let the voice 28 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:26,439 slide. I can't let people be thinking that I get up here and have 29 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:34,279 a lisp. Hell no, hell no. All right, before we get 30 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:42,360 into it and open it up, we'll have a little brief analysisization. Welcome 31 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,639 everybody. Look at that. We are already getting big numbers over here on 32 00:07:45,639 --> 00:07:48,560 YouTube because I haven't strained. I ain't strained in a week strength in a 33 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:54,319 week. I ain't strengthed in what two weeks? But I did get to 34 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,399 post. By the way, many of the Perfect Guy Life sam Hi clips, 35 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,839 So if you didn't watch the PGL, many are saying it was the 36 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:07,439 best, their favorite PGL. Very glad to hear that. Excellent reviews. 37 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:13,040 Very cool beans. I know a couple of the One of the clips got 38 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,000 over two hundred thousand views over on dollar stream. That's good news. Anyway, 39 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,160 our Vegas event was a blast. I did multiple live performances. I'm 40 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,560 sure some of you noticed this. Let's see if I can pull up one 41 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:31,919 little clip before we get started. People didn't know what to expect. They 42 00:08:31,919 --> 00:08:37,159 didn't know. They didn't know that you get a live performance of at least 43 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:43,159 three songs. I would have done more songs, but my my Matt kept 44 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:48,200 freezing up, which was really bugging me. But what are we talking about. 45 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:54,080 We're talking about live performances of funk O Pop. Okay, right, 46 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:28,320 you know what I mean. You know what I'm saying. Yes, you 47 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,399 did hear correctly. It was the majority of the audience clapping correct, yes, 48 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,799 correct, Not everyone. There were multiple boomers there who were mystified what 49 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:48,519 the heck, what's going on? Can y'all see me? Uh? Did 50 00:09:48,519 --> 00:09:54,679 this looks like this thing out here froze or something? I think we're good? 51 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,879 Are we good? Are we good over here? Can y'all see me? 52 00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:01,960 Okay, we're good? Yeah? I just hit Okay, we're good. 53 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:07,240 Yeah, no cap best performance all time exactly. Thank you. Shout 54 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:11,320 out to the people in the audience who know what's up for real. By 55 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,720 the way, there was multiple songs. I did Matthew McConaughey's song live. 56 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:26,240 I did Jordan Peterson rap song live. All of that. Thank you. 57 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,399 Someone acknowledges that I am important in the audience. I appreciate that. Now 58 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,559 before we get to the topic, I do have to laugh. I didn't 59 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:43,679 believe this was real. It is real. So one of the cardinals responded 60 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:50,919 and roasted Michael Laughton. Yes, you heard me correctly. I must confess 61 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:56,360 I have often waste time follow a program reason theology. Michael lofton this man, 62 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:03,279 big little beard, he should hide tattoo. He speak like theologian. 63 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:11,200 However, he's not the elogian. This is this is really And then the 64 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:16,399 best part is at the end, after the roast. I waste time with 65 00:11:16,519 --> 00:11:24,039 nonsense of Michael Lofton. No more minutes wasted, mister Lofton, Uh, 66 00:11:24,279 --> 00:11:28,360 waste of time. I invite everyone to stop spending their time and money on 67 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:37,480 him. This this is real. Yes, you heard me correctly. One 68 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:46,159 of the cardinals roasted Michael Lofton. And I was skeptical and say this can't 69 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:54,200 be real. But when you go to his Twitter page, it's linked right 70 00:11:54,240 --> 00:12:15,240 here boom roasted exactly. Now, if Eric Obarr gets winto this, better 71 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,080 watch out, because when he hears roasted, he just thinks of peanuts and 72 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:26,679 or hams and or any other type of food products that might be roasted. 73 00:12:26,759 --> 00:12:33,559 So you know it's not roasted Michael Lofton bringing ibarra to the trough. It's 74 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:39,799 roasting in the sense of jokes. But nobody in that's fear understands jokes anyway. 75 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,159 All right, let's get to the first point, which is that a 76 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:48,279 couple of my video. I did a brief video and it got quite a 77 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,360 good amount of views before we open it up. Here we've got atheist man. 78 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:56,679 I think that's gonna pop on even though it's not atheists Day. This 79 00:12:56,759 --> 00:13:01,960 man debated Pagot and he's I wanted to debate you, and I said, 80 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:05,440 well, i'll tell you what you can comp on this live stream. Even 81 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,279 though it's not a it's not atheist day, I'll let you hop on here. 82 00:13:09,519 --> 00:13:11,720 Or he's a skeptic or something. Anyway, he'll be on here in 83 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:18,559 a little bit, I guess. So today we're going to go through a 84 00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:24,919 further clarification of my one minute video that refutes Islam. And we're gonna do 85 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:31,159 the clarification because this helps us to understand exactly what the Quran says. And 86 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,200 no, we've not even had we had one Muslim correctly state the hypothetical. 87 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:43,600 He was the first one to do it in the road debate that I did 88 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:52,200 the other day where I have a weird lisp, thank you Elon. But 89 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,480 up until him, we had no one able to state it. So we're 90 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,720 going to go through the multiple passages in the to the Quran that talk about 91 00:14:03,759 --> 00:14:07,559 that you're supposed to go to the Bible, to the tore up to the 92 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:16,759 Gospel to confirm this new revelation because this is again kind of the ultimate reputation. 93 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:22,519 So we'll start with two and there's not too many of these. I'm 94 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:26,639 gonna go through them and hopefully we'll see won't take that long. We'll hit 95 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:31,360 each one of these and then we'll open it up. So first is two 96 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:41,039 seventy seven, No, not six two. I'm married to them. By 97 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,840 the way, we had a great live event. We sold over our target 98 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:52,240 in Vegas. We had a great presentation from Isaac Jimbob did great with his 99 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,159 stand up. I did some quote comedy, cringe court music. It was 100 00:14:56,200 --> 00:15:05,159 a blast. Jamie did a great pre and then I did my geopolitics conspiracy 101 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:16,679 presentation. All right, First one is do they not know that Allah is 102 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,080 aware of what they conceal and what they reveal? And among them are the 103 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:26,519 illiterate who know nothing about the scriptures except lies, and so they wishfully speculate. 104 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:31,440 Woe to those who distort the scriptures with their hands, and they say 105 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,639 this is from Allah seeking a fleeting gain, Woe to them from what their 106 00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:39,919 hands have written, Woe to them for what they've earned. Some of the 107 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:45,960 Jews claim this and that. And now notice that this is the first passage 108 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,960 that is usually brought up, and it does not say that the Bible itself 109 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:56,600 is corrupted. It says that illiterate people, Okay, Now, if they're 110 00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:00,559 illiterate, as Sam ch Munhoffen points out, how are they going to rewrite 111 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:06,600 the Bible and corrupt it. This is talking about illiterate people who don't know 112 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:12,120 about the scripture, and so they speculate on it. And it says woe 113 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:18,639 to those who distort the scriptures and say this is from Allah. It does 114 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,759 not say, when we compare this to other verses, that the scriptures themselves 115 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:29,600 actually were twisted and tainted in terms of the written texts. It says that 116 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:36,759 illiterate people are distorting it and rewording it for their own gain. Furthermore, 117 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:42,399 the other passages state that the texts are not corrupted. So if you wanted 118 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,879 to read this passage, it's as if it was saying that that the Torah 119 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:52,039 and the Gospel are corrupted, then it would contradict the other passages as we 120 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:56,240 will see. So notice it's illiterate people, not literate people, writing up 121 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:07,720 new verses and making up new texts. So the next one is three. 122 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:11,759 There is no God worthy of worship except Him, the ever, living in 123 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:15,759 the all sustaining. He has revealed to you a prophet, the Book in 124 00:17:15,839 --> 00:17:21,799 truth, confirming what came before, as he revealed Torah and Gospel. So 125 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:30,000 notice Torah and Gospel are equivalent to the revelation given here, supposedly, and 126 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:37,440 it's confirmed in what came before. So the proposition here in three one to 127 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:44,000 three of the Quran is that the new revelation is going to be consistent with 128 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:47,160 what came before, and that will be one of the ways that we know, 129 00:17:47,279 --> 00:18:04,160 we recognize confirming it. You see next is three forty eight. Mary 130 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,920 wondered, how can I have a child when no man has touched me? 131 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,119 An angel said it will be. So Allah creates whatever he wills. If 132 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,440 he decrees the matter, he simply says, be and it is, and 133 00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:22,200 Allah will teach him writing and wisdom Torah and Gospel. So notice the assumption 134 00:18:22,319 --> 00:18:30,839 here in the Quran is that Jesus, the virgin born son of Mary has 135 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:38,160 the understanding and wisdom of the Torah and the Gospel. Does it say that 136 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:45,920 Jesus's message or presentation or understanding what's corrupted? Now, Remember, Muslims will 137 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,880 often say we accept Jesus, we accept him as quote Messiah, even though 138 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,079 Messiah is a Hebrew term from the Hebrew Bible makes no sense in Islam. 139 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:59,480 There's no notion of what Messiah actually means in Islamic theologist just said to be 140 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:03,920 something that they accept. And remember that Jesus says, of course, for 141 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:11,279 in many places throughout the Gospels that God is his father. Many places in 142 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:17,319 the Old Testament, Israel calls God father. God calls himself the father of 143 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,839 Israel. Stter so God has seen as father. Jesus refers to God as 144 00:19:19,839 --> 00:19:25,440 his father. This shows us that Jesus is not in continuity with Islam, 145 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,640 contrary to what the Quran says right here, because Allah has no sons. 146 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,359 Islam is very clear that there are no sons of God. Allah does not 147 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,880 have any sons in any sense, and therefore Jesus cannot be preaching the same 148 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:48,559 deity as Mohammed views Allah. The next one, and then we'll open it 149 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,200 up. I see Jake is here, so we'll go to him if he 150 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,119 wants to hop on here in a little bit. There's not a whole lot 151 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,759 of these passages that I'm going to work through. I'm doing this because when 152 00:19:59,799 --> 00:20:03,319 I'm made the one minute video, a lot of Muslims kind of popped on 153 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,559 and they always have the same two or three responses to this where they say, 154 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:10,079 ah, but you see the Bible is corrupted, and the Koran says 155 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:14,880 it's corrupted. Now, notice that the Koran actually said earlier, right in 156 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,160 the previous example, No, no, you have to confirm the new revelation 157 00:20:18,319 --> 00:20:26,599 with what was prior. Okay, Torah and Gospel will confirm Quran. We 158 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:37,839 all saw that right. The next one is four forty four. Have you 159 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:44,240 a prophet not seen those who were given a portion of the scriptures? Yet 160 00:20:44,519 --> 00:20:48,839 they trade it for misguidance, and you wish to see it you and wish 161 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:55,359 to see you deviate from the right path. Alla knows best who your enemies 162 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:59,359 are. Ala is sufficient guardian, He is a sufficient helper. Some of 163 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,119 the Jews take the words out of context and say we listen and we obey. 164 00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:06,720 So notice this is going to be similar to one of the other passages 165 00:21:06,759 --> 00:21:11,799 about distorting with their tongues. Right. It doesn't say that the text itself 166 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,279 is distorted. It says that some of the Jews, not all of them, 167 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,279 some of them took some of the words out of context and said we 168 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:26,240 listen and we obey. And then it goes on to say Allah condemns them 169 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:30,799 for their disbelief, Oh, you who were given the book. This is 170 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:37,400 all us speaking to Jews. Right, believe in what we have revealed, 171 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:44,799 confirming your own scriptures before you see that there four forty seven. Believe in 172 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:51,480 what we revealed, confirming your own scriptures. You say that. So the 173 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:56,160 very challenge that we keep saying is the challenge in the Quran itself. You 174 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:04,519 can confirm what's in this supposed new revelation with what came before. The next 175 00:22:04,599 --> 00:22:17,000 one is five. Then, in the footsteps of the prophets, we sent 176 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:21,720 Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the Torah revealed before him. You 177 00:22:21,759 --> 00:22:27,000 see, this one is a kill shot because we have many existing Torahs and 178 00:22:27,039 --> 00:22:33,359 gospels prior to the seventh century. What other Torah or Gospel would there be 179 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,000 other than the ones that the Christians and the Jews possess. Okay, now, 180 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:44,119 this is saying that Jesus in the first century, excuse me, was 181 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:52,279 sent by Allah and that he confirmed the Torah. Nothing about the Torah being 182 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:59,759 corrupted, nothing about the Torah being made up, nothing about their being a 183 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,960 quote true Torah that only Muslims had access to. Right, that's all the 184 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,240 conspiracy stuff that they go to four, which there is absolutely no evidence. 185 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:17,920 We gave Jesus the Gospel containing guidance and light confirming what was in the Torah. 186 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,319 So notice there's a chain of confirmations here. Even the Quran assumes that 187 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:30,200 Jesus confirms the Torah, the Gospel confirms the Torah, and that the Quran 188 00:23:30,559 --> 00:23:37,200 will be confirmed via the previous revelation forty seven. Let the people of the 189 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:44,519 Gospel, the Christians, judge what Allah revealed in it in the previous text, 190 00:23:44,519 --> 00:23:48,279 the previous texts you see, so five, forty six, and forty 191 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:56,680 seven again very clearly enjoining Christians and Jews. Here are Christians to confirm this 192 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:02,000 quote new revelation by what came before. Now, the whole point of all 193 00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:07,119 this is that the prior revelation does not confirm the Qoran, is totally contrary 194 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,240 to it. And we all know this because every time we have a debate 195 00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:12,599 with the Muslims, and we've debated all of the top Muslims except for a 196 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:18,799 Hijab who has yet to accept the debate. What do they all say, 197 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:22,880 Ah, But you see, the Koran is what corrects the Gospel in the 198 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,440 Torah. But now wait a minute, you just pull debate and switch. 199 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,079 You flipped it on me because the Quran says, I can check this new 200 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,640 revelation of the Qoran against the old revelation. And from the perspective of a 201 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,640 juror Christian, we are not going to listen to new revelation if it's inconsistent 202 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,920 with what came prior. That's why Dounonymy thirteen, did Rymy eighteen Galatians one 203 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:51,680 all say that the more recent has to be checked against the prior. Now, 204 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,920 if you're a Christian, then we, by the way, we automatically 205 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,160 out of hand reject all of this because there are no new revelations after the 206 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,480 death of the Apostles. But even if there were, it wouldn't work because 207 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:10,519 just like say Mormonism, you would have the same problem here that just as 208 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:15,720 if you talk to Mormons for any spate of time, they will say, 209 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:21,720 ah, you see Joseph Smith is is he's in line with the Bible. 210 00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:26,200 We agree with the Bible. Okay, well, then I'm supposed to judge 211 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:30,279 the new revelations with what came before. Ah. You see, Joseph Smith 212 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,759 corrects where the Bible made mistakes. You see, So you see there were 213 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:40,079 errors in the previous revelation. Now you've got to follow the new revelation. 214 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,279 But wait a minute. You just said that you're in in continuity with the 215 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:48,319 previous revelation, correct, Okay, Well why would I not reject you if 216 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,160 the previous revelation is inconsistent with the new revelation. Oh you see there's errors 217 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,839 in it. Oh where are the errors anywhere? That disagrees with Joseph Smith? 218 00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:00,960 So you see the point you see, Oh, this is this is 219 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,400 a ridiculous bait and switch. It's preposterous. And again it even says, 220 00:26:07,519 --> 00:26:11,559 let the people of the Gospel, the Christians judge what Allah has revealed if 221 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:15,279 it's consistent with Torah on Gospel. Okay, well it's not. It's very 222 00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:19,880 clearly not, because every Muslim, when they encounter the countless passages that deal 223 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,920 with the Trinity or the deed of Christ, automatically arbitrarily say, oh, 224 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,240 those are all the corrupt ones. Oh okay, So basically we confirm the 225 00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:33,079 Koran with the Bible when the Bible agrees with the Koran. And they don't 226 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:40,799 understand how silly this is the only one that we had so far who could 227 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,759 restate the hypothetical a couple of days ago on the live stream, the first 228 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:49,680 one one out of I don't know. It's eight hours of Muslim debates, 229 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,519 consistent Muslim callers, and only one of them could restate the hypothetical. And 230 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,640 he said, oh, well, you have to interpret all this with the 231 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,279 hadiths. Oh so I can't just read the Quran. I got to read 232 00:27:02,279 --> 00:27:04,279 it through the lens of the hadiths. And the hadiths say that the Bible's 233 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:07,400 corrupted. And I said, well, wait a minute, though, would 234 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,839 a seventh century Christian or d you hearing this know to interpret it through the 235 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:17,319 hadiths? And he said, yes, eh, not true. The hideth 236 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,119 are about three hundred years later, so that's not true. So that was 237 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,400 the best answer that they've had so far. But even that was ridiculous because 238 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,519 he had to pretend like the hadiths and by the way, what seventh century 239 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,400 christianer are you hearing this? Would be? Like, Oh, so I'm 240 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,440 supposed to go check it. Oh but wait a minute, I have to 241 00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:40,799 interpret what you just said through these hidiths. I mean, it's just ridiculous. 242 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,640 All right, next one, we've got a couple more ten thirty seven. 243 00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:52,799 It is not possible that this Quran has been produced by anyone other than 244 00:27:52,799 --> 00:27:56,039 Allah. Well, I'm glad that the Koran at least told me that it's 245 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:00,839 not possible, because that means that proves it, right. It's literally not 246 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:06,319 even possible that anyone else produced it. In fact, it is a confirmation 247 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,880 of what came before. It is an explanation of the scriptures that came before. 248 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:18,000 You see that. And then the next verse is kind of funny because 249 00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:27,839 it says, oh, if you think we made it up, then produce 250 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:36,440 one sura even like this. That's an that's a kind of funny challenge, 251 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,440 right, So like the proof of it is to say, well, just 252 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,880 try to make one even like this, Just try to produce one sura even 253 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,880 close to this. You can't even do it. So that's an odd flex, 254 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,920 but it's there in the corona. Let's see, I forgot one in 255 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:59,279 six. This one's pretty good too, six one, fourteen. Oh, 256 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:03,480 profit should I seek a judge other than Allah? While he is the one 257 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,960 who has revealed for you the book the truth that is perfectly explained those who 258 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,559 were given the scriptures Jews and Christians. No, it has been revealed to 259 00:29:12,599 --> 00:29:17,359 you, So do not be one of those in doubt. The word of 260 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,440 our Lord has been perfect in truth and justice, and no one can change 261 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,160 his words. Now, wait a minute. If Allah revealed the Torah and 262 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,279 the Gospel, then how do all these goobers then turn around and say that 263 00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:30,599 Allah's words have been perverted in the tour in the Gospel, are not really 264 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,119 the words of Allah Allah anymore? Uh oh? No one can change his 265 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:40,920 words, though, But remember there is a revelation in the Torah in the 266 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:45,759 Gospel that's Allah a Law's word, but it's been perverted and corrupted. But 267 00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:48,920 wait a minute, no one can pervert and corrupt Allah's words. You jail 268 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:55,279 silly these people are. This religion is ridiculous. It's literally not even. 269 00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,640 What happened was a bunch of Arabs, who many of whom were illiterate, 270 00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:06,799 heard a bunch of stories that were partly things like the proto Evangelium of James, 271 00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:11,279 the Testament of Abraham, apocryphal texts, Talmuitik texts as is now well 272 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:19,200 known, legends from the Talmud, some elements of the New Testament, some 273 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:26,640 elements of the Bible and the Old Testament, and elements of Nestorian Christianity. 274 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:33,200 As the Cambridge Companion to the Oxford Companion to Islam admits in the origins of 275 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,640 Islam. And if you understand that that's what it is, it then makes 276 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,079 perfect sense why, for example, the chron mixes up a bunch of details 277 00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:47,599 in multiple Bible stories. It gets it all convoluted. You can tell it's 278 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:49,400 people that we're hearing stories and we're writing it down. They got to confused, 279 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,960 for example, thinking that Mary is part of the Trinity, or that 280 00:30:53,400 --> 00:31:06,480 Christians worship monks. Very bizarre stuff. And then I think there's six one 281 00:31:06,519 --> 00:31:17,720 point fifty four. We're almost done with these. Additionally, we gave Moses 282 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:22,759 scripture completing the favor upon those who do good, and detailing everything as a 283 00:31:22,799 --> 00:31:27,119 guide and a mercy, so perhaps they would be certain of the meeting of 284 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,400 their Lord. This is a blessed book that we revealed, follow it and 285 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:37,559 be mindful. So again affirming that the Torah given to Moses was given supposedly 286 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:44,400 from the same Allah revealing of the Qur'an. And you'll notice that there's no 287 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:48,160 mentions here of the texts that were given to Moses or the original texts being 288 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,039 corrupted. That's something that Muslims have used as an argument many centuries later to 289 00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:59,839 try to deal with the obvious total inconsistencies between the biblical revelation and the kurn 290 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:09,079 Let's say, I get one more one or two more nine thirty two. 291 00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:17,880 They wish to extinguish Allah's light with their mouths, but Allah will only allow 292 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,640 his light to be perfected to the dismay of the unbelievers. He is the 293 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,839 one who sent his messengers with truth and the religion of truth, making it 294 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,559 prevail over all others, to the dismay of the polytheists. So this is 295 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:38,920 talking about, all right, the pet the prophets previously, Jesus, Moses, 296 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:45,359 et cetera. And again it states that the revelation given at that time 297 00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:49,880 was correct and was from Allah. Now again, nowhere do we see any 298 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,759 mass mentions of it being twisted and corrupted the text itself, the Torah and 299 00:32:53,799 --> 00:33:00,000 the Gospel texts, you say, and the couple instances of it being corrupted. 300 00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:04,119 It has to do with the way that quote Jews twisted it with and 301 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,359 it didn't even say all of it is that some of the Jews twisted it 302 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,599 in there with their tongues. Let's see sixty one. This is the last 303 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:30,119 one. I think. Yeah, they wish to extinguish Allah's light with their 304 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,480 mouths, but Alla will certainly perfect his light, even to the dismay of 305 00:33:34,519 --> 00:33:37,519 the unbelievers. Nobody minute. Do I do that one? Yeah? I 306 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:44,039 did that one. Okay, did we do three? Seventy seven and seventy 307 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:49,039 eight? I can't remember if I did that one either. But this is 308 00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:55,079 the one that they often reply with as proof that the scriptures are corrupted. 309 00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:59,759 But when we read the passage, you'll notice that it doesn't say that at 310 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:04,319 all if you read the context. Indeed, those who trade Allah's covenant and 311 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,039 oaths for a fleeting gain will have no share in the Hereafter Allah will judge, 312 00:34:07,079 --> 00:34:09,280 will neither speak to them, nor look at them, nor purify them. 313 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:14,639 On the day of judgment, they will suffer a painful punishment. There 314 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:17,639 are some among them. It doesn't say all the Jews are all the Christians. 315 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:24,760 Some among them who distort the book with rewriting it, No, with 316 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:31,760 their tongues. So their explanations and interpretations of the text are distortions. To 317 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,840 make you think that the distortion is from the book, But it is not 318 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,599 what the book says. I kid you not. This is the passage that 319 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:45,559 they all go to to try to say that the Bible and the Torah are 320 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:50,400 corrupted. What does it say right there? It says the book is not 321 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:55,559 corrupted. It says that their explanations of it from their tongues are a distortion. 322 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,480 Is that clear to everybody? So that's the full list of the places 323 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,280 in the Kuran. I mean, there might be some more that I'm just 324 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:15,920 not even aware of, but that's the ten or so that I've found so 325 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:22,400 far where we are enjoined to test the new revelation with whether it's in continuity 326 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,679 with the Torah and the Gospel. And the assumption of the Koran pretty clearly 327 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,559 is that when you go and do this, you will see that we're teaching 328 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:32,280 the same thing. Well, of course it's not the same thing, obviously, 329 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,320 but that and if that is the case, that's pretty much an ender 330 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,360 for Islam. I mean, the hold of the revelation rest on this being 331 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,559 the case. And if this is not the case, then Islam is not 332 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:49,320 true. So that's why this is such a strong argument. Now we have 333 00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:54,079 Jake, if he wants to hop on, you can come on and we'll 334 00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:59,840 have a discussion here I know that you were a interested in having a discussions 335 00:36:00,039 --> 00:36:04,440 out on Islam. We can go back to Islam after this if he's able 336 00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:10,400 to come on and Jake had a discussion with Pagoe. I've not watched this 337 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,519 full. I watched a little bit of it, maybe a few minutes of 338 00:36:13,559 --> 00:36:20,519 it, but they can you hear me? Hey, thanks for having me 339 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:23,800 on. Sure, how you doing? How was your pageot talk? I 340 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,679 thought it was fun and you tell me. I mean, I've gotten different 341 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,840 responses. It was. It was cool, a little unfulfilling, but I 342 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:37,280 haven't I only saw a little bit of like a couple of clips because we 343 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,639 just got back from like a two week road trip, so I haven't seen 344 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:44,480 much of it. So Twitter space is audio only, right, I don't 345 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:50,440 get to just got my camera set up. Okay, you're on my channel, 346 00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:54,119 so you can clip this and and do whatever. Okay is this being 347 00:36:54,159 --> 00:37:00,440 recorded or yeah, we're alive on YouTube and over here on I'm pretty clueless. 348 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,440 So I reached out to you, Jake, because I had, like 349 00:37:04,559 --> 00:37:07,599 it had to be like fifty sixty something, like a lot of people saying, 350 00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:08,719 hey, you got to talk, You got to talk to Jay Didier 351 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:16,599 okay. And so you know, because my conversation with Jonathan Joe, the 352 00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:20,559 purpose of that conversation, the reason I set up a call, the reason 353 00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:23,639 he spoke to me is because I wanted to ask him questions about the work 354 00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:27,960 he does with symbolism, you know, that's his thing. And then we 355 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,920 get into the call and he mentions Christianity and I couldn't help myself and I 356 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,400 was like, you know, do you really believe in that? Can I 357 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,239 can I ask you about your views? Can I push you on this a 358 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:38,840 bit? And I said, you know, Jonathan, I know this is 359 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,639 not something that we said we would discuss, but here we are like can 360 00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,400 I can I go into this? And he said, yeah, go for 361 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:47,960 it for sure? And so that's why we That's how we got into that 362 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:54,199 conversation. And you what, what, I haven't had a chance to look 363 00:37:54,199 --> 00:37:57,800 at your chamit. What do you focus on mainly? What's your topics? 364 00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:04,239 Yeah, so basically the question I asked him that I want to ask you 365 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:10,079 is I agree with you that there's a lot of value to be gained in 366 00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:15,840 practicing religion. I think we live in a world where it's difficult to create 367 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,679 a system of morality and ethics outside of religion, and there's a lot of 368 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,199 value to religion. Okay, I think people should practice what they want to 369 00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:29,719 practice. That being said, I still think it's appropriate to say, well, 370 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,760 hold on a minute, that the stories the Bible actually happened. But 371 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,440 again, I want to make it extremely clear to the listeners. I'm not 372 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,079 saying this is so silly, you shouldn't practice religion. I'm saying there's a 373 00:38:43,199 --> 00:38:45,840 value to religion, and it's a good question to ask, how do you 374 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,519 know the stories happened? And I think you can live with I think you 375 00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:55,079 can be someone who practices religion or appreciates religion, but doesn't believe in the 376 00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:59,719 you know, the Bible work for where it's so really my question is just 377 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,920 how do you know that the Bible, like the stories of the Bible actually 378 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,519 happen. Question. Yeah, that's a fair question. I tend to argue 379 00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:13,840 the transcendental argument for God's existence, and so it's kind of like it's a 380 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,400 logical argument that's prior to logic at all, or the doing of logic, 381 00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:23,400 or any knowledge claims at all, because it deals with the preconditions of knowledge. 382 00:39:23,639 --> 00:39:29,119 So it's it's kind of like I would agree with you that we're not 383 00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:32,960 going to settle the issue of like what things are possible or not possible apart 384 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:38,519 from what types of things we think are possible within our worldviews or our paradigm. 385 00:39:38,599 --> 00:39:42,679 So ultimately, for me, it's kind of a worldview question where we 386 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,599 end up saying, well, the only way that I know what's possible is 387 00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:52,639 based on some kind of metaphysical assumption from the outset, and in order to 388 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,559 go about that we end up having to do worldview or transcendental argumentation. So 389 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:02,320 that's kind of debating things that at a fundamental level, And the challenge is 390 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:08,599 this that if the Christian God does not exist, then knowledge, metaphysics, 391 00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:15,400 and ethics becomes impossible to justify or make sense of. So I usually flip 392 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,119 this argument and say that the way that I know is that without that God, 393 00:40:20,199 --> 00:40:24,039 existing knowledge in terms of justified true belief wouldn't really even be possible. 394 00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:30,199 And so God becomes for me, in my argument, the necessary grounding for 395 00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:37,119 the possibility of knowledge, logic, ethics at all. That's the transcendental argument, 396 00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:40,880 and I think it's the strongest one by the way. I want to 397 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,159 the other thing, like I feel like I could have done better. In 398 00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:47,719 my conversation with Jonathan Joe is like, I don't I want to concede to 399 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,719 as many points as I possibly can, because that way I don't detract. 400 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,760 I really have one singular point and I don't want it to get lost. 401 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,519 And I feel like with religious debate and conversation, you know, the arguments 402 00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:06,920 often get tangled up because there's so many layers of understanding that we can get 403 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,199 to with these conversations. So let me concede as much as I can. 404 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,320 You know, you make it so God exists, right, I have no 405 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,599 problem with that. Why not so God is? Let's say God is real 406 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:22,239 and you know, and that that explains I think whatever you were saying about, 407 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,760 like the ethics or something. So again, let me ask the question, 408 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,519 how do you know that the stories of the Bible actually happened because of 409 00:41:31,559 --> 00:41:36,280 the transcendental argument? That's my That's where I start from. So and I 410 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,559 don't know if I followed the argument. I think what your argument is saying 411 00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:42,360 is like because of some things that we see in the world, like I 412 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,800 don't know, like patterns or something that therefore the Bible I'm not following, 413 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,159 like what's the argument. So, the form of the argument is X is 414 00:41:49,159 --> 00:41:52,719 a necessary condition of why why Therefore X. The argument in terms of how 415 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:58,800 I explicated is that if God didn't exist, then there would be no way 416 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,599 to have justified belief, that is, to wait, a way to ground 417 00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:06,840 our knowledge in terms of epistemology. And so because we do have knowledge, 418 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,159 or we appear to you know, exchange information and have conversations, and we 419 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,599 use language and meaning and numbers in math and all that, uh, then 420 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,760 knowledge appears to exist. And so therefore, in order for knowledge to even 421 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:24,960 be possible requires some kind of ultimate absolute, some kind of ultimate principle, 422 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:29,920 and namely that is the Christian God. So the Christian God does the work 423 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:36,480 of grounding as a kind of in theologies called divine conceptualism. So meaning language, 424 00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:39,639 all these things are only possible, and it's in the sense of justifying 425 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,800 their existence and their and their jay. Maybe I'm fucking stupid, I'm not 426 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:49,000 understanding. Let me try to read it back to you and then you so 427 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,320 uh So, the essence of what you're saying is like, look, you're 428 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:57,719 not You're not trying to prove the Bible stories being true from first principles saying, 429 00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,599 Hey, Jake, look, here's the evidence. Here's that it was 430 00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:02,000 true. What you're doing is the reverse, which I think is a reasonable 431 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,760 approach to take, right to say, Like, I want to think of 432 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,760 an analogy, like if I if I can't prove something like if I, 433 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,159 okay, if I find a dead person with a bullet hole in their head 434 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,159 and I can't find the gun, I can infer like, hey, this 435 00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:16,960 person probably got shot in the head because now there's a bullet hole in my 436 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:22,800 head. Right, so it's possible for us to infer cause the relationships. 437 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,960 So I don't I don't fault you for but but I really, like I 438 00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:34,239 don't know if it's because I haven't slept enough. Like so you're saying, 439 00:43:35,039 --> 00:43:37,960 can you say your argument in like one sentence? Like, so you you 440 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,559 think that the essence of what you're saying is you think the stories of the 441 00:43:39,559 --> 00:43:45,280 Bible happened because of some way that they're manifesting themselves in reality. I'm just 442 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,679 not clear what what you're really saying, Like, yeah, I mean right. 443 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,559 So again, it's a specific type of logical argument called the transcendental argument 444 00:43:52,599 --> 00:43:58,079 for God's existence. Right, Yes, and it posits that before you can 445 00:43:58,159 --> 00:44:01,840 even do the type of question that you're asking about about what's possible in terms 446 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:07,679 of miracles or Bible stories or whatever, that there are prior questions that we 447 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:13,480 all have and assumptions about what's possible that have to be debated and discussed first. 448 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,880 So in your worldview, you would, as a skeptic or an atheist 449 00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:21,840 or whatever your position is, Agnosta, you would assume that, well, 450 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,519 it just doesn't seem like those things are possible. So at the outset, 451 00:44:24,519 --> 00:44:30,199 you and I have different accounts of what things are and aren't possible metaphysically speaking. 452 00:44:30,519 --> 00:44:32,400 So the point there is just to say that I don't think we do 453 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,400 it all. If I told you, hey, man, like my grandma 454 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,760 rose from the dead today, you'd be like, nah, man, no, 455 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:38,760 she did it. Like, let me see eence of that. I 456 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:44,039 would bet that you and I j have the same understanding of what generally is 457 00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:50,800 metaphysically possible. Well no, But because my ultimate governing commitment is the Christian 458 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,800 paradigm, yours is not. So. No, we have fundamentally different accounts 459 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,840 of what things are and are not possible. Would you believe me if I 460 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,679 told you? Right, now my grandmother rose from the dead today. No, 461 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:06,519 I would not. Why not because it's very unlikely? Right? Because 462 00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:09,719 why because it violates what you know about physics? Right? No, it's 463 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:15,039 just it wouldn't It wouldn't be likely just given a common sense account of what 464 00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:22,119 things typically occur. But your so the whole argument. I think you've missed 465 00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:27,760 the entire argument. The argument is not settled by particular claims about this or 466 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,440 that event in our lives. It's a question of paradigm's as a whole. 467 00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:36,320 And you're reading everything. All the evidence that comes into your brain or whatever, 468 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,599 is read through your worldview, through your paradigm. And so you say, 469 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,239 your assumption is that certain things are not possible or very very unlikely, 470 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:47,760 but that that has nothing to do with whether or not you can give an 471 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,199 account for these things as a whole. So do you believe that there's objective 472 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:58,239 truths or that knowledge is possible? I don't define those terms. And and 473 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,199 by the way, I I don't want to. I'm not trying to. 474 00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:08,079 I don't want to, like outright try to refute what you're saying or try 475 00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:10,880 to kind of push you to a corner. I really am genuinely at like 476 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,239 trying to understand what I saw. I mean, we've heard, you know, 477 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,119 skeptical claims a lot, and I don't. I don't have a problem 478 00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:21,679 with you bringing forward sort of the skeptical claim or an argument. But the 479 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:28,360 point is that this is a much deeper issue than whether or not it's possible 480 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:32,159 for something out of the ordinary to happen. So let's say that your grandmother 481 00:46:32,199 --> 00:46:36,440 did appear to you know, come back or wake up out of the coffin 482 00:46:36,559 --> 00:46:40,119 or something like that. I mean, you would probably assume that even if 483 00:46:40,119 --> 00:46:43,559 that occurred, it wasn't a miracle, it was some sort of like, 484 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,880 you know, weird phenomenon that we haven't studied or understood yet or science hasn't 485 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,400 given us an answer yet. Right, So, even if someone rose from 486 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,599 the debt, it wouldn't necessarily mean that the supernatural is true, even in 487 00:46:54,639 --> 00:47:00,320 your in your in your worldview, right. Uh No, I mean if 488 00:47:00,599 --> 00:47:01,880 someone rose from the dead, I would be a believer, man, I 489 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,360 would say, Wow, that's pretty good evidence that something's going on here. 490 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,400 I would in that instant, I would I would try to find it religious. 491 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,400 Well, don't you think that? So there's a lot of claims of 492 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,440 this in the world, right, and most skeptics is Mike, Okay, 493 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,039 can you hear me? Okay, yeah, I can. It's like good 494 00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:20,920 because I got this like this sure microphone. I don't know if it's coming 495 00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:22,440 with the audio on Twitter basis, it doesn't really give me an option like 496 00:47:22,519 --> 00:47:27,679 to you sound great to me? So do what you sound great? Yeah? 497 00:47:28,199 --> 00:47:30,039 Oh thanks man? You should see Okay. So anyways, so you're 498 00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:36,679 saying, so, I mean, there are miracle claims all the time in 499 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,800 the world, and most most people do not accept them. They most most 500 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:44,880 of the time they will say, well, there's probably another explanation for that. 501 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:46,639 And you don't think in the case of your grandmother you would you would 502 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:51,280 look for another explanation. Yeah, So if I saw it, then I 503 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,239 would say a lot, it's pretty remarkable. If I told you my grandmother 504 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:59,320 rose from the dead, hopefully you would not believe me. You would say, 505 00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:02,840 dude, I don't believe you. That sounds pretty unlikely. Well, 506 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:08,039 that's why, that's precisely why this issue can't be solved on what people's claims 507 00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:12,239 are. And it's a yeah, and so that's why it goes to the 508 00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,920 paradigm level. That's the whole point of the transcendent argument. So let's look 509 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,000 then, you know, I was saying like, oh, I don't understand 510 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:21,400 the transient's argument. Let's drill into the transcendent argument. So I'm going to 511 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:22,719 say what I understand about it, and then maybe you can elaborate a bit 512 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:27,360 and we can have a substand conversation about this argument. So the transidentence argument 513 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:32,159 is an attend from you is that we understand the divinity of the Bible or 514 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:39,360 of of Christianity based on the causes of that source. So based on it's 515 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:44,719 not the causal argument in reality, So what so I guess what? So, 516 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,320 so let's let's just dig into that. So what is it about the 517 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:51,199 world? So the transit argument is prior to the teleological argument, is prior 518 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,280 to the causal argument. It's it's before all of those because it's an argument 519 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,320 about the possibility of arguing at all. So it's a meta level argument. 520 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:01,360 Are you familiar with like meta level arugmentation? I just yeah, I just 521 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,280 think it's well, maybe you didn't understand it first, because I'm not trying 522 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,920 to be rude, but like, let's understand it first. So what is 523 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,639 your worldview. First, by the way, I don't know you know what 524 00:49:14,679 --> 00:49:17,639 I actually On principle, I'm gonna stay away from many of those terms because 525 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,239 I don't think they're helpful in this context. In fact, I think they 526 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,960 detract from the point. I think a big problem with these religious arguments is 527 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:30,000 you have people like Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson who, because of their own 528 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,559 ego primarily are kind of rambling and trying to intertwine these complex terms. I'm 529 00:49:34,599 --> 00:49:37,840 going to use as simple terms as possible and as few words as possible to 530 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,199 make my points, because I think that is at the crux of a powerful 531 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:47,400 argument, and I can I can very concisely describe how I understand reality without 532 00:49:47,559 --> 00:49:52,480 the use of any of these more complex theories. Right, So, I 533 00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:57,360 what do I believe? I believe we live on planet Earth and it is 534 00:49:57,519 --> 00:50:01,320 round, and it orbits the Sun. I believe that we have an intact 535 00:50:01,559 --> 00:50:07,840 system for discerning truth about What would that be? Yeah? So hold on. 536 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,880 So I believe we have an intact system for discerning truth about generally speaking 537 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,280 about science and history, and we sometimes get it wrong. Sometimes we fuck 538 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,719 it up, and sometimes details are wrong. But you and I both agree. 539 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:21,920 I don't even have to ask this. You and I both agree that 540 00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:29,079 largely speaking, our global societal understanding of history is true, right, neither 541 00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:30,440 of you. No, I have no idea what that even means. That's 542 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,880 just appeals to generalities that I don't even know what that means. I'll be 543 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:39,480 very specific, She'll be very specific. Both you and I agree that claims 544 00:50:39,559 --> 00:50:45,400 of the fact that the Mayans had a thriving civilization, that there was a 545 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,400 Roman empire, that rosen fell, that the Mongolian Empire, that Christopher Columbus 546 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,440 sail across the ocean, all of these are historical accounts that we have created 547 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,519 as a society and understood. And I'm going to make the bet, and 548 00:50:58,519 --> 00:51:01,119 please tell me if I'm wrong that you believe these things that you believe George 549 00:51:01,159 --> 00:51:05,679 Washington was the first president. That you believe Christopher Columbus healthy cross the ocean? 550 00:51:05,679 --> 00:51:07,920 Am I correct? Or? Am I incorrect? Yeah? I don't 551 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,239 have any significant reasons to doubt those things. So let me respond to this. 552 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,000 So the reason you're not downing those things is because, like myself, 553 00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:19,880 you agree that through the methods that as a society, as a world, 554 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,480 we've discovered that the Egyptians had pyramids and the minds had a civilization. In 555 00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:28,400 Christopher Columbus hilth corossoation, we trust those things because we know we know that 556 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:32,079 we have a great system for understanding historical fact. It's not a perfect system. 557 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,760 Now, pretty good. Now, now we come to the problem here, 558 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,880 do you were don't? Here's here's the question you were. Don't you 559 00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:43,880 believe that we have a really good system? Really, so you're confusing. 560 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,800 So it would help to take an epistemology class, not being a rude person 561 00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:52,400 by saying that. But you can assert the things that are commonly held, 562 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,320 but that doesn't tell you that you have the right theory of a pistemology or 563 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,840 the right theory of knowledge. That's another type of question. So you're confusing 564 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,599 the pragmatic account of what most of us believe or what we think by common 565 00:52:04,639 --> 00:52:07,920 sense, which is not necessarily wrong. But none of that can tell you 566 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:13,280 whether you have the right theory of knowledge. But I'm asking a very simple 567 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:19,800 question, do you believe you're You can ask that question, but it's ignoring 568 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,639 what I'm raising, which is epistemology and your theory of knowledge. So you 569 00:52:22,639 --> 00:52:30,639 can't just keep appealing to commons to consensus, because at the level of epistemic 570 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:37,079 theory, that's a fallacy. Okay, So I'll grant all that. So 571 00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:40,800 here's my question, and it's a yester no question, And if do you, 572 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,159 Jane Dare, think that we we meaning America, society, the world, 573 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:53,880 whatever, do we have a system for discerning historical truth that works? 574 00:52:53,920 --> 00:53:00,679 Do we have a system that works? It works for certain things, but 575 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,800 it can't tell you the right theory of epistemology. That's the point. I 576 00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:07,960 feel like invoking these terms is okay. So in other words, you don't 577 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:12,719 want to go into philosophy because that would be the problem in philosophy. But 578 00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:15,440 I want you to answer my question. Do you think we have I'm answering 579 00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,119 your question, but it's such a low tier type of question that you're not 580 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,880 familiar with what epistemic theory is. Do you know what that is? Yes? 581 00:53:22,119 --> 00:53:28,079 What is it? What? What? What is your theory of epistemology 582 00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:34,880 epistemology is? Are you googling it right now as the notion of truth in 583 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:37,800 terms of epistemic notion? Are you? Did you google it to read it? 584 00:53:37,559 --> 00:53:42,960 I googled it because right, So you kept, so you're not even 585 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,920 aware of what the issues are. The question was what is your theory of 586 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:51,920 knowledge? Not do people believe things through common sense and consensus? Do you 587 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:57,159 understand that consensus is a fallacy? Consensus is a fallacy? Sure? Yeah, 588 00:53:57,199 --> 00:54:00,280 that that that can be a fallacy if everyone leaves one thing. Okay, 589 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:05,280 So so your epistemic theory was grounded on a fallacy because you said, 590 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:07,960 well, what we know is what we commonly, what we all know, 591 00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:13,119 what american in the world has. I'm asking a question, do you do 592 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,639 you think that's a two quote way? What's it? I don't know what 593 00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:19,519 the So you don't know what these are, So why are you trying to 594 00:54:19,519 --> 00:54:22,760 debate these things? You don't know the basic fallacy and you're pushing back and 595 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:27,360 asking other questions. You know, No, the question was about epistemology, 596 00:54:27,559 --> 00:54:30,400 and you're asking me another question, which is a two quote way. So 597 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,079 so I then I apologie is if I if I ignored your question? So 598 00:54:34,159 --> 00:54:37,280 what your question that I heard was your questioning me about whether I want to 599 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,480 know your theory of knowledge because you said we know, we know, in 600 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,400 fact, you said it twice, we know that this is the right approach 601 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,440 to how we have knowledge of history, and I'm saying that that is not 602 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:53,599 adequate and doesn't work for grounding your epistemology. That's another type of question that 603 00:54:53,639 --> 00:54:58,920 you can't just appeal to consensus. Yeah, so I don't know that. 604 00:54:59,159 --> 00:55:01,639 So let me try to answer question. And have you had a basic philosophy 605 00:55:01,639 --> 00:55:05,800 class. I'm not trying to read to you, but I can tell that 606 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,239 you haven't. Uh huh, I have you have? But you didn't know 607 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:13,199 what a pistemology was. I don't. I don't know the definition as you're 608 00:55:14,199 --> 00:55:16,000 okay, but you would learn that if you had a philosophy class. I 609 00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,800 had to agree in this. I just haven't. I just don't think it's 610 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,320 relevant of this specific question. So epistemology is not relevant to the question of 611 00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:28,440 debate. Okay. It's been a while, so the theory of knowledge? 612 00:55:28,519 --> 00:55:30,920 Okay, so now I remember what it been, gotcha? So now I 613 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,559 remember what I learned an undergrad about amismology. I am with you. It's 614 00:55:35,559 --> 00:55:38,440 an ontology and it's you know all these terms. I just look to be 615 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:40,599 honest, I don't think right. So you're going to go back to appealing 616 00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:43,960 to avoiding the question. Right, You're going to go back to appealing to 617 00:55:44,119 --> 00:55:47,840 your basic question. That's your question. Your question is what is epistemology? 618 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:53,280 Wow? No, you said that we have a basic way for discerning truth, 619 00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,559 and we know, and we know you said it twice, we know 620 00:55:55,679 --> 00:56:00,119 we know, right, And I said, how do you know that that's 621 00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:05,760 the right criteria for determining truth, that that's the right epistemic criteria? How 622 00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:07,599 do I know? But I don't think you want to be asking that question. 623 00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:09,840 And the reason I don't think you want to be asking that question is 624 00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:14,960 because if that's a sincere question, then you're calling into then you're calling into 625 00:56:15,039 --> 00:56:17,480 question everything we know about reality. You're not even aware of basic of philosophy. 626 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,559 Okay, so if you're going to have a debate, you need to 627 00:56:23,639 --> 00:56:37,679 know the basic terms democrity, epistemology, the study of epistles. Like that 628 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:58,320 girl said, I'm mute, dude, memocrity, I'm mute. If you 629 00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,800 want to support the stream, you can do so via the super chat function. 630 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:06,679 Just hit super chat link that takes you over to stream labs memocerty. 631 00:57:06,679 --> 00:57:12,639 Do you not want to talk from a point of view? What's up? 632 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,039 Topics today are Islam, Judaism, and I guess atheism. If atheist and 633 00:57:16,039 --> 00:57:21,239 agnostics want to come on. If you're not familiar with basics, please don't 634 00:57:21,239 --> 00:57:24,199 waste my time. Sneako's Islam, Judaism, Roum, Catholicism, Papacy, 635 00:57:24,239 --> 00:57:31,280 Protestantism, here roots, gnosticism. What's up? Do you hear me? 636 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:37,800 Shame? I do? And good good. So I just wanted to speak 637 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,639 to you about something that you talked a lot about a few weeks ago, 638 00:57:44,639 --> 00:57:52,960 pertaining to Sneako's like alliance for like the current like distant right wing. And 639 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,800 I don't know if it's appropriate today if you want to talk about something else. 640 00:57:59,119 --> 00:58:01,400 I mean, the topics are Islam, but is it relevant to that? 641 00:58:04,079 --> 00:58:10,000 Well, I just want to know your opinion about this. I just 642 00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:16,519 think that this whole alliance that the right wing, specifically that dissenter right wing, 643 00:58:16,719 --> 00:58:22,760 is trying to have with the Islamic community in the West, I just 644 00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:30,280 feel like it's kind of like self jeopardizing because I mean, let's just be 645 00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,440 honest, what Islam promotes. Even if you talk to like the less radical 646 00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,280 people in Islam, a lot of the things that they promote and believe in 647 00:58:37,599 --> 00:58:47,159 is just completely incompatible with Western thinking and just Christianity in general, and especially 648 00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:54,480 makes no sense when when with someone like Nick Fuentes is friends with Sniko despite 649 00:58:54,519 --> 00:58:59,480 the fact that he's a Christian. Yeah. I mean we talked about all 650 00:58:59,519 --> 00:59:01,280 that at the last dream. So what's the point. What do you want 651 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:06,920 to get to? Yeah? I just want to know if, if in 652 00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:12,519 your mind, would it be in the right interest to try and not on 653 00:59:12,719 --> 00:59:15,840 this kind of alliance and instead Yeah, I think it's a waste of time. 654 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,880 I don't understand what the people think they're going to get out of that, 655 00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:32,280 but I appreciate your comment there, Rowena, what's up? Got on 656 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:40,639 you? Okay? I'm going to jump in and talk about Ireland and where 657 00:59:40,679 --> 00:59:45,960 we are in our space because they they played us first, They really played 658 00:59:46,039 --> 00:59:53,400 us first, and neither flooded our country with people. I want to put 659 00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:59,119 it that way. But religion is the game that's being played. That's the 660 00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:06,119 game of chest here. Okay, right, thank you for that. Memocerty, 661 01:00:06,159 --> 01:00:17,239 what's up, hey, jam I need my coffee? Memoker, do 662 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:28,199 you want to talk or not on you? Could you make me a double 663 01:00:28,199 --> 01:00:32,599 shot coffee? Thank you appreciate it. I don't understand what why does this 664 01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:42,800 guy keep coping hopping on here. I don't want to talk putting a bunch 665 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,840 of a bide in the crap up here, Mario, it's to me, 666 01:00:46,119 --> 01:00:57,760 Mario, there we go. What's up, dude, talk uncle with what's 667 01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,360 on your mind about his alm. I just want to know your view in 668 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:05,639 terms of what do you think it is closer to the Christian view in terms 669 01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:10,360 of view of the word do you think Saclerism or Islam is closer? Because 670 01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:15,920 I have the impression that although Islam is quite that, I'm not quite sure 671 01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:22,400 anymore if given the current situation of our society, we wouldn't actually be better 672 01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:30,480 under some sort of Islamic views of Like, it seems uncertain me that I 673 01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:37,519 have today right wing young girls in France, like eighteen nineteen girls posting pictures 674 01:01:37,519 --> 01:01:44,800 off in Agia telling well, this is our Christian society against completely covered Islamic 675 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,360 women, And I have a lot of people in the Christian births say yeah, 676 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:52,920 they're right. I'm like, yeah, but I mean, you're not 677 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:57,840 going to get this righteous society with Islam. So I don't know why people 678 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:15,519 think they're going to get that. I mean, Socrates gotta on. Mute 679 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:27,320 un mute Socrates. It's my first time on Twitter spaces, so thanks for 680 01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,440 bringing me on. I'm actually Jake's friend. I was hoping to hop on 681 01:02:30,519 --> 01:02:37,639 to try to help help bridge that. But yeah, okay, so what's 682 01:02:37,679 --> 01:02:43,960 what's uh the epistemic answer? Yeah? So, so you were talking about 683 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,239 the transcendental argument, which is that God is necessary to even have a foundation 684 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:52,280 to have some kind of truth or understanding. I've I've heard of that. 685 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:57,159 I've never gone to that argument in detail. I understand. Okay, so 686 01:02:57,159 --> 01:03:02,320 what's the answer on a histemology? So so I'm not clear why you would 687 01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:07,960 need to have some kind of other entity, So so forget all of that. 688 01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:12,360 He said that he wanted to go with like a common sense approach to 689 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,599 epistemology, and I said, how do we know that that's the right criteria 690 01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:19,920 truth? Mm hmm, Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't rest on like 691 01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:25,159 a common Okay, what would you rest on? I would I would rest 692 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:30,519 on I mean, I guess it depends on how far you're trying to prove. 693 01:03:30,559 --> 01:03:34,039 If you're saying something like history, what happened in history? You could 694 01:03:34,039 --> 01:03:37,840 go with what's at the level that's verifiable, right, and so that's why 695 01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:39,239 I ultimately, yeah, I was, I was saying, Ultimately, it's 696 01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:45,039 not a question of historical claims. It's a question of world views. Yep, 697 01:03:46,039 --> 01:03:51,960 yeah for for me. So so for me it's conceivable, like I 698 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,719 can imagine a world in which there is no God, but also I can 699 01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:59,400 have knowledge. Well, it doesn't really matter whether you can imagine that or 700 01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:03,360 not. What we needed is an argument, Well if if it's if it's 701 01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:09,840 possible for that world to exist, then it's not necessary for God to attend. 702 01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:13,440 I'm I'm not sure that it is possible. So what what is your 703 01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:15,039 account of knowledge? If God doesn't exist? Give me, give me an 704 01:04:15,039 --> 01:04:20,920 account of knowledge, like a formal account. I mean, I have like 705 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:28,840 a I. I I believe that I have memories. I believe that I 706 01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,000 have things that I that I believe to be true. I believe that I 707 01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:34,920 exist. There are things like you know, statements I can make. Are 708 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:43,280 there are there moral absolutes at all? Can we know them? I wouldn't. 709 01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:47,440 I wouldn't say that I hold moral absolutes? I guess, so are 710 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:53,000 there any absolutes at all? Are there any absolutes? I mean, I 711 01:04:53,039 --> 01:04:57,079 think. I think there's things that are that are defined. So things like 712 01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:02,119 logic or arithmetic or parts of math are defined that I think are are simply 713 01:05:02,199 --> 01:05:05,519 true. Okay, and on what basis should we well, on what basis 714 01:05:05,559 --> 01:05:11,679 do we believe that those things are simply true given given that they're defined. 715 01:05:11,719 --> 01:05:16,039 So if you have anything I defined is true anything under sorry to say it 716 01:05:16,039 --> 01:05:19,719 again, So just defining it makes it true. I'm asking what makes it 717 01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:28,000 true? Well, it's something isn't X isn't true because X is defined. 718 01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:30,960 So you said it's defined. That's what my question was, Why why does 719 01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:38,320 that make it true? No, So within a system that's defined, you 720 01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:42,440 can have things that are true. And is that the criteria knowledge? Why 721 01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:49,400 why would we accept that as our epistemic criteria? As are as our epistemic 722 01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:54,480 criteria. I feel like there's a there's some particular meaning that you have. 723 01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:59,199 Yeah, like the criteria problem. You're not very familiar with the criteria problem. 724 01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:00,960 No, I'm not from the criteria. You're a philosophy man. You've 725 01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:04,000 got a philosopher as your profile picture here, and you're not familiar with David 726 01:06:04,039 --> 01:06:09,840 Chism or Roderic Chism. No, I've never heard that name. Okay, 727 01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,760 what it's called the criteria problem. So the question is how do we have 728 01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,079 knowledge without presupposing a criteria of knowledge? And if we said that we have 729 01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:18,519 a criteria of knowledge, then we already assume that we have knowledge. So 730 01:06:18,599 --> 01:06:26,400 it's it's a classic problem and epistemology. Okay, can you can you give 731 01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,599 like a little bit of just a sense of what you mean by a criteria 732 01:06:29,639 --> 01:06:32,480 of knowledge? What would be a criteria of knowledge? What what gives us 733 01:06:32,639 --> 01:06:41,039 the grounding for true versus false beliefs or propositions? Right? Okay, okay, 734 01:06:41,079 --> 01:06:45,039 Okay, so that's that's perfect. So so so let me clarify what 735 01:06:45,079 --> 01:06:48,840 I'm about to explain. Isn't the only thing that I consider knowledge but within 736 01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:53,079 a subset of things. Okay, But and the question, but you're not 737 01:06:53,119 --> 01:06:56,440 understanding the question because it's prior to you just asserting these things. The question 738 01:06:56,519 --> 01:06:59,159 is how do we answering the question is how do we know that that's the 739 01:06:59,199 --> 01:07:02,480 case. Well, you haven't heard what I answer was. It's not going 740 01:07:02,559 --> 01:07:05,719 to matter what the answers are because you're not answering the criteria question. You're 741 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:11,360 just stating a position. Well, I'm I'm giving. I'm giving a preamble 742 01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:14,440 to my answer to the criteria question. Do you know what the preamble or 743 01:07:15,639 --> 01:07:16,679 is it going to tell us why we ought to believe it? Or is 744 01:07:16,719 --> 01:07:23,280 it just more assertions? It's it's the opposite of an assertion. It's it's 745 01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:28,000 giving you more of an explanation my worldview. The degree to which that is 746 01:07:28,039 --> 01:07:30,159 that telling us why we ought to believe it? Or is that just an 747 01:07:30,199 --> 01:07:32,880 assertion? It's not an assertion? Okay? So why ought we believe it? 748 01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:39,639 Why ought you believe something that isn't an assertion? Your position? Why 749 01:07:39,719 --> 01:07:45,400 aren't we believe your position? Stop playing games? Well, would you like 750 01:07:45,440 --> 01:07:53,119 to know my position? Yes? Okay? So my position is that within 751 01:07:53,159 --> 01:07:59,159 a system that has definitions, there are things that can be true based on 752 01:07:59,239 --> 01:08:08,440 those definitions. Assertion by vaxium one and axiom assertions, assertions, assertions assertions? 753 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:14,159 Where where's the ought why we believe this is the case? You said 754 01:08:14,159 --> 01:08:15,279 you weren't going to get just give me assertions. You said you're going to 755 01:08:15,279 --> 01:08:20,479 tell me why we ought to believe it? Why ought you believe? Okay? 756 01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:25,000 So taking a pistemology course and stop trying to be a dork and sound 757 01:08:25,039 --> 01:08:40,079 like you know it all. Go lord, what's up? I'm mute, 758 01:08:40,079 --> 01:08:48,560 go laud, go loud. Do you want to talk or not? Honest? 759 01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:50,600 Like? What why do you wait here? If you don't want to 760 01:08:50,600 --> 01:09:14,720 come on? Old w old time religion? Oh well, w yo yo? 761 01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:19,880 Can you hear me? Can you hear? Yes? Sir? Hello? 762 01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:24,239 Yeah? What's up? Man? What's on your mind? Hello? 763 01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:32,640 Hello? Alright? So can you hear me? Yes? Sorry sir? 764 01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:38,600 All right, sir, I've heard you talk. I hear you breathing a 765 01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:44,520 lot. Okay, awesome, come on, breathe at me, pervert. 766 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:47,479 It's not like a pervert calling a woman is. I'm joking, man, 767 01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:56,439 you don't have to run away. Go lord, what's up? Hello? 768 01:09:56,760 --> 01:10:00,680 Can you hear me? Yes? Sir? Very sorry about that issues. 769 01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,600 So I understand this is a little bit outside of the topic today, but 770 01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:12,479 it's come up, the epistemic criteria problem. It's been a been talked about 771 01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:14,920 a lot. Uh. I was just curious, what, Like, I 772 01:10:15,000 --> 01:10:19,680 understand that I have a BA in philosophy, I did not study epmology. 773 01:10:20,239 --> 01:10:27,680 I understand there's like rationalism and skepticism and just broadly those those kind of schools, 774 01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:30,399 but I was wondering, like, what's the orthodox answer to that? 775 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:34,880 Because I just obviously I went to a So I have a whole lot of 776 01:10:35,079 --> 01:10:39,439 if you want to go watch the fuller podcast that we've done. We've done 777 01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:44,359 probably ten podcasts on the Orthodox view of epistemology. We believe in a holistic 778 01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:45,600 view. Right. So the point, the whole point of all this is 779 01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:49,840 that philosophy, secular philosophy, atheist philosophy, materialus philosophy is a dead end. 780 01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:55,399 It doesn't get anywhere, and it can't even answer the possibility of knowledge 781 01:10:55,439 --> 01:11:00,720 at all. So the solution we argue is a revelational epistemology of the entire 782 01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:04,680 Christian world being paradigm, which gives an account for how knowledge is even possible. 783 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,920 So it's not an argument about this or that specific claim, because it's 784 01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:15,439 about ultimate commitments, ultimate authority, ultimate principles. It's our whole paradigm that's 785 01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:20,479 at issue between an atheist and a Christian. So you used right, Okay, 786 01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:25,800 So you use tag to establish God's existence, and then from there we 787 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,920 have a revelation to carry forward, right, Because it can't just be any 788 01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,439 God. There sometimes specific content. Yeah, and I think that the Christian 789 01:11:33,239 --> 01:11:38,960 deity, and not just a Christian duty, but the entire Christian paradigm actually 790 01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:46,760 answers many of these insoluble classic philosophical dilemmas and problems. Whether it's the criterion 791 01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,600 problem, or whether it's the problem the one the many, whether it's the 792 01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:56,399 question of universals, the debates with the nominalists, whether it's objective ethics, 793 01:11:57,359 --> 01:11:59,720 you know, all of these kinds of issues, the problem of an identity 794 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:04,159 over time, whether it's the question of the existence of the self, whether 795 01:12:04,199 --> 01:12:11,680 it's you know, induction. All of those classic philosophical problems aren't problems if 796 01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:15,800 the Christian worldview is the case, because we have a basis to believe in 797 01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:19,119 the regularity of nature. We have a basis to believe that, you know, 798 01:12:19,239 --> 01:12:24,000 man has dignity and ethical norms because he's made in the image of God. 799 01:12:24,039 --> 01:12:28,199 There's duties, man has free will, et cetera. And when we 800 01:12:28,359 --> 01:12:34,520 begin to remove those principles, when we throw out things like tellos or causation, 801 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:39,479 et cetera, et cetera, we have worldviews that begin to break down 802 01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:44,119 and destroy the possibility of knowledge. And a lot of loadsier people don't understand 803 01:12:44,119 --> 01:12:47,840 the difference between you can have knowledge and know things. That's different than giving 804 01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:51,359 an account for and given a justification for that knowledge. Okay, so people 805 01:12:51,359 --> 01:12:57,079 think that, well, I know things, and you're saying that if all 806 01:12:57,119 --> 01:13:00,359 my agies, I can't know anything good. No, that's not the argument. 807 01:13:00,359 --> 01:13:08,199 The arguments that you can't give a justification for the knowledge. Cipher mister 808 01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:14,880 Anderson, can you hear me? Yes, sir, Yeah, I think 809 01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:16,479 you're about your kind of answering my question. I was going to ask, 810 01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:21,640 but I'll just ask it again anyways, So you seem to believe that the 811 01:13:23,359 --> 01:13:28,680 Christian worldview is the correct worldview and that there is some sort of revelation that 812 01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:34,159 can happen through the study of some sort of what I'm sorry, let me 813 01:13:34,279 --> 01:13:45,520 let me just restateation nor revelation by studying Christian doctrine. What makes you so 814 01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:50,319 sure that studying Christian doctrine doctrine is the only way to get that rather than 815 01:13:50,359 --> 01:13:54,520 I don't know a Chic doctrine or whatever, and I'll take my question off. 816 01:13:55,279 --> 01:13:59,079 Yeah, No, that's a fair question. We have critiques that are 817 01:13:59,079 --> 01:14:04,359 pretty consistent for any kind of unitarian or diadic position or dualistic or Astrian type 818 01:14:04,359 --> 01:14:09,800 of position. Platonism is a type of a dualistic position. You could even 819 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:15,199 argue Aristilianism ends up in a kind of diad dualist position. Those positions are 820 01:14:15,279 --> 01:14:18,560 so metaphysically deficient that they break down at a very basic level and also make 821 01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:24,119 knowledge impossible. So the rest of the argument. If you watch the talk 822 01:14:24,159 --> 01:14:28,279 that I did, for example, critiquing doctor ed Faser, I just posted 823 01:14:28,319 --> 01:14:30,720 a video I think on my timeline here on Twitter about why the Trinity is 824 01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:36,159 necessary. That's a specific, unique type of Christian metaphysic. When we get 825 01:14:36,159 --> 01:14:40,399 to the Trinity, the auction of creation, x Nilo, etcetera. All 826 01:14:40,399 --> 01:14:45,079 of those things are also part of solving or answering this dilemma or the dilemmas 827 01:14:45,760 --> 01:14:50,800 in the history of philosophy. So yes, Platonism unitarianism also failed to achieve 828 01:14:50,840 --> 01:15:00,720 that. OLW Trevor, do you want to on? If I'm a nitwit, 829 01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:03,119 you should be able to call in. There's the link right there. 830 01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:09,000 Jethro put the link for you, so feel free to call in. WELW 831 01:15:09,119 --> 01:15:14,279 want to try again? Sorry? Is my technical issue fixed? I can 832 01:15:14,319 --> 01:15:16,239 hear you? Can you hear me? Uh? Yeah? So I just 833 01:15:16,239 --> 01:15:23,000 want it's first quote, what your problem is with classical foundationalism and the Roman 834 01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:29,359 Catholic approach to apologetics. I mean, I probably covered it one hundred times, 835 01:15:29,359 --> 01:15:31,479 so if you want a fuller treatment, you can watch one hundred of 836 01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:36,560 the different critiques we've done. But I mean, classical foundationalism is a position 837 01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:42,560 that's self defeating, it's contradictory, it's inconsistent. It posits things, for 838 01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:46,880 example, self evident truths, and then it will oftentimes appeal to other things 839 01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:49,800 to back up self evident truths, which means that they're not self evident, 840 01:15:49,840 --> 01:15:54,439 which means that it's circular, which is the very thing that foundationalism rejects. 841 01:15:55,720 --> 01:16:00,640 It's not sufficient in terms of answering the post Enlightenment challenges to foundationalism. It 842 01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:05,720 just reasserts itself over and over and over as if there's no problem or no 843 01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:12,920 issue. So it can't really address skepticism. It can't address the criterion problem 844 01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:18,119 of Chisholm that we just referenced about twenty minutes ago. Okay, So then 845 01:16:18,159 --> 01:16:24,840 I would ask, like, how does the Transcendental document specifically like get to 846 01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:29,079 the Orthodox gods and not absolute divine simplicity that I'm a Roman Catholic. I 847 01:16:29,119 --> 01:16:33,359 believe in Well, the absolute divind simplicity is anti trinitarian first of all, 848 01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:39,279 so like it not consistent with the trinity. So why would you believe in 849 01:16:39,279 --> 01:16:44,199 absolute devind simplicity if you want to be a trinitarian. No, because you 850 01:16:45,319 --> 01:16:47,920 can't make distinctions within God. You can't make that as sense energy distinction. 851 01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:51,159 Well, that's cool assertion. But if you can't, if you can't make 852 01:16:51,199 --> 01:16:57,439 distinctions in God, then there's not three persons I read recently. Oh, 853 01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:01,760 you're read since energy distinction was made in you didn't even you didn't. That's 854 01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,079 a really good argument. Have you? Have you read basil is He in 855 01:17:04,119 --> 01:17:10,640 the fourteenth century? All right? So letter two thirty four is that? 856 01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:16,439 Is that the fourteenth century text? Right? So why are you trying to 857 01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:30,560 argue stuff you have no idea about? Honeybo un mute? Hello, hey 858 01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:38,880 Jay? My question if you posted that presupposing an entire ideological paradigm is the 859 01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:41,720 only way to make sense of the world, isn't that in itself roots and 860 01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:49,239 in assertions? No, it's it's explaining what we all do. So you 861 01:17:49,239 --> 01:17:54,239 could theoretically disagree with that, but you would be I think in a tougher 862 01:17:54,279 --> 01:17:58,600 position trying to explain that we the humans don't do that. I mean, 863 01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,359 you would be basically back at kind of a foundationalist or an evidentialist position, 864 01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:05,439 And so then I would just level the critiques of self evidence and foundationalism. 865 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:14,920 But how is that not an assertion? It's part of an argument. But 866 01:18:15,039 --> 01:18:17,600 that's assertive as well, right, Yeah, I'm not critique. I'm not 867 01:18:17,640 --> 01:18:21,039 saying that the previous guy can't assert, but he never told us why we 868 01:18:21,079 --> 01:18:25,079 ought to believe that. Rather than just asserting it, I don't just make 869 01:18:25,119 --> 01:18:28,239 assertions. I also tell you why you ought to believe it. Yeah, 870 01:18:28,279 --> 01:18:30,359 but what you ought to believe you do on the basis of the criteria that 871 01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:35,199 come from the ideological paradigm that you presupposed. Yeah, but that's why it's 872 01:18:35,199 --> 01:18:39,560 a holistic comparison to paradigms. You can't escape that. Everybody's in that boat. 873 01:18:42,079 --> 01:18:44,640 I don't know that sounds like assertions to me, but I think so 874 01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:49,520 again, you didn't understand anything I said. Why did you leave? Are 875 01:18:49,560 --> 01:18:55,319 you there? Yeah? But I mean you don't understand the difference between an 876 01:18:55,359 --> 01:19:03,279 assertion and why you ought to believe it. I don't know exactly right. 877 01:19:03,359 --> 01:19:06,039 So again, maybe you guys should learn like some of the basics. But 878 01:19:06,119 --> 01:19:09,880 you guys, you guys are gonna come and have these arguments and argue with 879 01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:15,159 me and voice these challenges. It's like, dude, take go spend I 880 01:19:15,159 --> 01:19:17,960 don't know, put the fucking video games down and watch an epistemology course or 881 01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:33,520 something. Rolex, Rolex, I'm mute. Hey. So my question for 882 01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:40,279 you, Jay is specifically on Islam. So I was watching some Christian apologetics 883 01:19:40,319 --> 01:19:48,119 debate with Muslims, particularly the one with a rule on speakers corner, a 884 01:19:48,199 --> 01:19:51,520 rule from speakers corner. I don't know what that is or who that is 885 01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:59,319 anyway, go ahead, okay. So I noticed a lot of his argumentation 886 01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:04,399 is based on how Mohammad himself is a fictional character. So I found this 887 01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:11,000 interesting because from my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 888 01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:14,560 he was a historical character. Like according to like scholars, like you know, 889 01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:18,920 doctor Michael Penn, he in fact was inspired by you know, Orthodox 890 01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:23,640 Christianity, which makes sense at the time. You know, is Mohammed, 891 01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:31,239 Yeah, No, he's inspired by Nestorian Christianity. According to like Oxford companion 892 01:20:32,399 --> 01:20:36,039 Okay, John Damascus says that too. If I recall, Pelican says that 893 01:20:36,079 --> 01:20:41,560 too. I see, because I thought the way that they, you know, 894 01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:45,640 prostrate and like the praying seven times or five times a day was taken 895 01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,000 from early Christianity at the time. Yeah, No, Storian Christianity and influenced 896 01:20:49,079 --> 01:20:53,399 Mohammad pretty clearly. And I'm sure that they were doing a lot of those 897 01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:56,560 practices in the in the Church of the East and the fourth and or excuse 898 01:20:56,600 --> 01:21:00,760 me, in the in the seventh century. I see. So I guess 899 01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:05,640 my question is that, you know, do you think he is a historical 900 01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:10,680 record? I think you answered that already, And man, I don't. 901 01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:14,479 I don't. A lot a lot of people want to have these like Jesus 902 01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:18,319 never existed, Moses never existed, Muhammad never existed. I don't. I 903 01:21:18,359 --> 01:21:24,079 don't really even get into all of these historical evidentialist debates. You'll notice that 904 01:21:24,079 --> 01:21:30,039 almost everybody wants to keep things at the level of debating unverifiable historical things. 905 01:21:31,359 --> 01:21:35,079 So I don't. I just don't even worry with that because almost everything that 906 01:21:35,119 --> 01:21:39,840 I ever do, whether it's debating Muslims or atheist or Roman Catholics, it's 907 01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:45,640 systemic apologetics. I focus on systems and whether there are fundamental flaws and contradictory 908 01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:51,479 things at the base root programming of the system. If the systems fall apart, 909 01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:55,359 then I don't care about anything else, and nothing else in that system 910 01:21:55,399 --> 01:21:59,640 matters. It won't matter historically because the systems is false. And that's why 911 01:22:00,079 --> 01:22:04,279 system level apologetics. System level argumentation is so much stronger and so much more 912 01:22:04,319 --> 01:22:09,439 forceful than getting into all of these disputes where people say, well, this 913 01:22:09,600 --> 01:22:12,359 group claims this miracle, and this group claims this in history, and what 914 01:22:12,399 --> 01:22:16,239 about this claim and that claim? And it's a never ending spiral and cycle 915 01:22:16,399 --> 01:22:21,039 of claims. And I'm not saying that evidences don't matter. It's just that 916 01:22:21,079 --> 01:22:26,319 they have a place and ultimately what we find out. And I think if 917 01:22:26,359 --> 01:22:30,279 you argue and debate for twenty plus years, you start to realize that everybody 918 01:22:30,279 --> 01:22:36,760 interprets their information and their evidence is on the basis of the paradigm. So 919 01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:42,079 ultimately it's always just about what our conflicting paradigms are. That's why I always 920 01:22:42,119 --> 01:22:44,840 focus on that. So I don't have any I mean, is it possible 921 01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:46,359 that Muhammad didn't exist? Yeah, I just I guess that's possible. Maybe 922 01:22:46,399 --> 01:22:51,720 he's a conglomerate, maybe he's a bunch of different sectarian group people coming together, 923 01:22:53,239 --> 01:22:56,399 or maybe he was just a dude that flopped over and was possessed, 924 01:22:56,600 --> 01:23:00,800 as though some of the Hadiths say he thought he was possessed. I see 925 01:23:00,079 --> 01:23:03,039 no, Thank you so much, Jake. And the last thing I want 926 01:23:03,079 --> 01:23:08,039 to ask you was, would you ever go on like George Jenko's show here? 927 01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:11,159 He's been doing a lot of Christian content and I think, I mean, 928 01:23:11,199 --> 01:23:14,760 I don't, I don't know who that is, but who is he? 929 01:23:14,319 --> 01:23:17,079 He's one of those guys that was with Logan Paul for a long time, 930 01:23:17,119 --> 01:23:23,800 but he has that platform for like Christian speakers. I think Cliff was 931 01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:28,239 on his podcast recently. And yeah, I mean, I'm pretty I'm pretty 932 01:23:28,279 --> 01:23:31,359 open to I mean, I don't usually turn down podcasts unless they're just really 933 01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,319 weird, bizarre, creepy or whatever. So I'm usually pretty open to that. 934 01:23:35,399 --> 01:23:39,720 So I'll have to look into who he is. That boy, what's 935 01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:45,159 up, dude, there's a zillion podcast I can't keep up with everybody. 936 01:23:45,479 --> 01:23:49,439 I don't know who all the people are. That boy got on. I'm 937 01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:53,880 you man, what's up? Thank you guys for the super chats. We've 938 01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:59,600 got a nice thousand here. Alo. What's up man? Hey, it 939 01:23:59,680 --> 01:24:01,640 was up. I'm sorry. Pastor Randy Balls, how are you doing? 940 01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:06,840 What's on your mind? All those videos to my buddies, man, thank 941 01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:12,119 you they're great. Yeah. Hey, well, uh yeah, my wife 942 01:24:12,119 --> 01:24:15,760 and I have been attending Divine Liturgy at an Orthodox church near US for a 943 01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:20,680 few months now, and uh yeah, yeah it's been great. At first 944 01:24:20,920 --> 01:24:25,399 I was the one that was kind of like going headstrong in it, and 945 01:24:25,439 --> 01:24:30,279 now my wife has kind of gotten on board. And uh, I guess 946 01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:33,399 as time has gone on, I started wrestling with and I also I grew 947 01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:41,760 up nominal became more reformed as I got older. But now I find myself 948 01:24:41,800 --> 01:24:49,039 wrestling with the uh soteriology, Okay, because sola fide was one of those 949 01:24:49,079 --> 01:24:51,960 things that as a Protestant, as a reformed guy, that was something that 950 01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,560 was like a great comfort. And I feel like to a lot of Protestants 951 01:24:56,079 --> 01:25:00,600 that look at Orthodoxy, that's something that they wrestle with because they're comfort in 952 01:25:00,680 --> 01:25:04,119 solo fete. And so I'm just curious, like, how do Orthodox Christians 953 01:25:04,199 --> 01:25:09,640 have any sort of comfort and when they consider the end of their life, 954 01:25:10,399 --> 01:25:14,479 what does that look like, because it doesn't seem like there's something tangible to 955 01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:19,039 do that with. I mean, the purpose of the sacraments is to give 956 01:25:19,119 --> 01:25:24,119 us comfort and to give us assurance, like you know, the absolution and 957 01:25:24,600 --> 01:25:31,960 communion are means of that assurance of being in continual communion. So that's the 958 01:25:32,000 --> 01:25:36,399 purpose of those things. But I mean, even if you're a Protestant and 959 01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:42,680 you admit the possibility of self deception, which every Protestant I'm aware of believes 960 01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:45,079 that even if you believe in quote once they'd always saved an assurance of salvation, 961 01:25:45,279 --> 01:25:49,560 like I mean, you you still they they will still typically admit the 962 01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:56,079 possibility of being self deceived. And so there's not you're not really even in 963 01:25:56,199 --> 01:26:00,600 any better boat if you accept the Protestant doctrine of assurance of self. So 964 01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:05,840 yeah, that's fair, that's fair. So I guess there's a lot of 965 01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:10,039 clarity. Well, I don't want to say clarity. There's a lot of 966 01:26:10,359 --> 01:26:14,760 presumed clarity in the Protestant Reformed world about you know, what happens when you 967 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,760 die. And then from what I've talked to the priest at the parish, 968 01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:24,039 I've been attending, you know, the the afterlife and what happens it's it 969 01:26:24,079 --> 01:26:28,079 seems kind of unclear, and I guess in a way that's kind of fair 970 01:26:28,119 --> 01:26:30,880 that it should be maybe unclear what happens. I think the Orthodox Church has 971 01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:36,119 a pretty fairly clear doctrine of the intermediate state. I mean, you could 972 01:26:36,159 --> 01:26:40,720 read The Soul after Death by Father Sara from Rose, which is a pretty 973 01:26:40,760 --> 01:26:44,239 good book on that. Roger Hass, what's up, dude, But thank 974 01:26:44,279 --> 01:26:59,119 you for that question. Hey, hey, so one question is when you 975 01:26:59,119 --> 01:27:05,880 talk about, uh, what was it transit the transcendental argument, would that 976 01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:13,800 fall under presuppositional apologetics corre Okay, okay, So that's just one question, 977 01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:23,680 just trying to get some categories worked up and then being a Protestant when so 978 01:27:23,800 --> 01:27:30,600 there, when it comes to sociology, specifically Calvinism, when you look at 979 01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:33,520 the so there's you know, one thing we could do is look at the 980 01:27:33,520 --> 01:27:40,359 biblical texts that speak to it, and there will be versus that Protestants will 981 01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:44,199 interpret or understand in this way and the Orthodox will interpret or understand it in 982 01:27:44,159 --> 01:27:51,159 another way. But but just from a from a more of a practical standpoint 983 01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:58,439 of of how it how it works out in the life of a believer. 984 01:28:00,399 --> 01:28:04,359 Uh, what are the things that that like that jump out to you just 985 01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:10,640 like there's kind of like an Orthodox he has like a centi largical architecture, 986 01:28:11,039 --> 01:28:15,479 and the Calvinism has this this architecture and you kind of interact with it in 987 01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:18,600 a certain way as you go throughout your life. What are the what are 988 01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:25,560 the things from a practical standpoint that you that that jump out at you as 989 01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:30,079 the biggest differences or or and there may be so many of them, but 990 01:28:30,119 --> 01:28:34,359 even just just as a just as a way to interact around that subject, 991 01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:41,119 like even just one or two of the things that that you look at as 992 01:28:41,119 --> 01:28:48,239 an Orthodox person and say, well this, this wouldn't work because or this 993 01:28:49,199 --> 01:28:55,760 I struggle with even understanding Calvinism because of this, or or how they would 994 01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:57,800 work this out? Or do you do you do? You know what I 995 01:28:57,880 --> 01:29:01,439 mean? I'm a little lost. Are you just saying, like, can 996 01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:10,880 can you summarize what those questions? Okay? So like I could say, 997 01:29:12,319 --> 01:29:16,479 what is like what do you disagree with about Calvinism? I mean you could 998 01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:21,000 answer it, well, you know, the church fathers just disagree with it, 999 01:29:21,039 --> 01:29:25,159 and that's it. Or I don't. I don't. That's not how 1000 01:29:25,199 --> 01:29:28,000 I. I don't usually say, oh the church fathers disagree, I mean, 1001 01:29:28,039 --> 01:29:32,800 I give well, I don't. I don't. I don't. I've 1002 01:29:32,800 --> 01:29:36,960 not listened to I appreciate you and I and I've been tuning in more and 1003 01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:42,199 more, but I don't have a a deep bank of episodes that I've listened 1004 01:29:42,239 --> 01:29:46,399 to to that I can go back to about how you would respond to. 1005 01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:49,239 Right well, let me just say, let me just say, I got 1006 01:29:49,279 --> 01:29:54,119 you. Yeah, So right now I got pulled up to really good talks 1007 01:29:54,119 --> 01:29:58,720 that we did. One is a little briefer. It's an hour talk that 1008 01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:02,880 we did called the Air of Calvinism and Protestantism. That's a one hour podcast 1009 01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:06,880 where I laid out those issues. Then there above that is a part one 1010 01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:13,720 of a two part three hour, four hour talk on the fuller critique of 1011 01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:18,119 Calvinism. So check out these podcasts if you're watching on YouTube. They're right 1012 01:30:18,159 --> 01:30:27,479 here Calvinism Refuted and then the Transfigured Life podcast where we got into critiquing it 1013 01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:30,560 there. So there's two parts of that first one hence the number one, 1014 01:30:30,239 --> 01:30:33,800 and then there's a one hour one here. So those are good places to 1015 01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:45,399 start. I also did another critique with Cotel right here Calvinism refuted JDR Hotel. 1016 01:30:46,279 --> 01:30:50,479 This is another two and a half hour talk. This one goes beyond 1017 01:30:50,600 --> 01:30:57,439 just materiology and Christology. But ultimately the big issue I think that seals the 1018 01:30:57,479 --> 01:31:02,439 deal against Calvinism is Christology, because if Calvinism fails in terms of Christology, 1019 01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:10,560 it's over right. So I'm always searching for like the most systemic level destructive 1020 01:31:11,119 --> 01:31:15,359 argument, and I think for Calvinism it's Christology because if we're if we're basically 1021 01:31:15,359 --> 01:31:19,359 saying that the sun is damned and we're having to posit, what would amount 1022 01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:24,560 to anti trinitarian stuff? I mean, this is ridiculous. By the way, 1023 01:31:24,640 --> 01:31:26,399 So we got people over here in the YouTube chat. I don't know 1024 01:31:26,399 --> 01:31:28,840 where that guy what they got whining the whole time for like an hour. 1025 01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:30,680 Dude, come in debate, Like why are you sitting here whining in the 1026 01:31:30,760 --> 01:31:36,680 chat? Informed consent? Come debate, rumman, cavolxs where you guys at 1027 01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:44,199 come debate. The link is in the show description. It's a Twitter X 1028 01:31:44,359 --> 01:31:46,760 space you call in. Every time we do this, people are mystified, 1029 01:31:46,840 --> 01:31:50,039 like they have no idea. What do you call in what is Twitter? 1030 01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,239 Like nobody, We've been on this for like eight years. What do you 1031 01:31:54,279 --> 01:31:57,199 guys do it? Like? Where you guys been? It's like the boomers 1032 01:31:57,199 --> 01:32:00,119 that would be like, what's a live stream? Where you got my minutes 1033 01:32:00,159 --> 01:32:11,439 and music? I'm a little sassy today, Dimitrio's make it quick. I 1034 01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:18,079 gotta go t T to a little girl's room here in a second. I'm 1035 01:32:18,079 --> 01:32:38,319 your king LSR. What's up dude? Hello, Yes, sir, I 1036 01:32:38,359 --> 01:32:42,479 had a follow up question because I know that guy was unaware of the letter 1037 01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:47,239 two thirty four Saint Basil in my I'm sort of in a weird spot right 1038 01:32:47,239 --> 01:32:51,680 now between Catholicism and Orthodoxy because like half the Orthodox positions to me makes sense 1039 01:32:53,279 --> 01:32:56,439 half the Catholic positions. So it's a weird spot. But I want to 1040 01:32:56,479 --> 01:33:00,880 ask, I've been in that spot, so yeah, so especially the philosophical 1041 01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:04,920 ones, like that's why I call himself a business team counts, like because 1042 01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:09,760 the Philosophy foundation wasn't that that totally makes sense to near with the dux side. 1043 01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:12,760 But like, well, let me say first of all, what I 1044 01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:15,000 would recommend to you and to that guy if you go over here to my 1045 01:33:15,159 --> 01:33:20,359 YouTube channel on the very bottom you'll see, uh the metaphysics talks. But 1046 01:33:20,520 --> 01:33:25,399 in that list of talks if you click on it, I lecture through the 1047 01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:29,039 entirety of John Damascus is on the Orthodox Faith. Okay, John Damascus, 1048 01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:35,800 especially in book three, he really utilizes the essence sentergy distinction most clearly in 1049 01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:42,880 Christology. Okay, two wills and two energies in christ presupposes and is predicated 1050 01:33:42,920 --> 01:33:47,239 on the essenceentergy distinction. For Christology. You can't have a correct Christology without 1051 01:33:47,279 --> 01:33:51,840 the essen sentergy distinction. That six Council actually affirms this explicitly. So when 1052 01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:57,159 John Damascus is writing on the Orthodox Faith, he's looking back on the Sixth 1053 01:33:57,199 --> 01:34:01,399 Council and it's essence synergy distinction argument. Take in Christology from Saint Maximus against 1054 01:34:01,399 --> 01:34:05,399 Piros, and he cites it multiple times, especially book three. So this 1055 01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:12,159 is ultimately it's just absurd to argue that it's stupid to argue that the assen 1056 01:34:12,199 --> 01:34:15,560 sentari stinction is invented in the fourteenth century when it's the basis of the Six 1057 01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:18,960 councils ugmentation. Yeah, because that's that's the kind of thing I've been running 1058 01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:24,359 into before I get to my actual letter, my actual question at letter two 1059 01:34:24,399 --> 01:34:26,439 thirty four. I'll make it brief, but that's what I'm running into, 1060 01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:30,560 is the idea that well Mark of emphasis agreed when they were like when they 1061 01:34:30,560 --> 01:34:33,960 speak about the essence energy distinction, that he basically says to the lens. 1062 01:34:34,000 --> 01:34:38,279 Yet we're in agreement there, but it's really the filioqui that they depart. 1063 01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:41,319 He doesn't agree that, No, he doesn't. That's not true. Yeah, 1064 01:34:41,319 --> 01:34:44,199 it might be just something I read. There's a theory that you know, 1065 01:34:44,279 --> 01:34:46,479 neo Palmanism is not even what Paul must believe. You know, I'm 1066 01:34:46,520 --> 01:34:51,960 sure you're aware of this. I mean, doctor ticon Pino just put out 1067 01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:57,520 his PhD thesis on this topic. Everybody in the Orthodox world has read it. 1068 01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:00,399 I mean, yeah, that's a separate thing. But in wow, 1069 01:35:00,439 --> 01:35:03,399 is it a separate thing when that's it's on that very issue? What do 1070 01:35:03,399 --> 01:35:06,039 you mean? No, I mean, it's kept to my question on two 1071 01:35:06,119 --> 01:35:11,520 thirty Oh, okay, go ahead, Yeah. Yeah. So, uh 1072 01:35:12,800 --> 01:35:15,800 so two thirty four seems like strong evidence because not only does Saint Basil says 1073 01:35:16,079 --> 01:35:19,920 to say, you know, in the first paragraph speak about the actual essence 1074 01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:26,279 an interestinction, he goes on to say that if one considers this two we 1075 01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:30,000 actually I can find the quote. It's not it's not even just letter two 1076 01:35:30,039 --> 01:35:32,279 thirty four. That's just a very clear statement of it. Okay. So 1077 01:35:32,399 --> 01:35:35,560 I mean it's if you read all the Holy Spirit. The argument that he 1078 01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:40,039 makes is that the Holy Spirit has the same energy as the Father and the 1079 01:35:40,079 --> 01:35:43,199 Son, and energy signifies nature. Therefore he has the same nature. It's 1080 01:35:43,239 --> 01:35:45,159 like literally the whole argument of on the Holy Spirit by Basil. If you 1081 01:35:45,199 --> 01:35:47,520 read if you, if you read hold on, if you read against You, 1082 01:35:47,560 --> 01:35:51,439 excuse me. If you read against Unomius by Basil, he makes arguments 1083 01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:56,239 on the basis of the energies of the Spirit. If you read against You 1084 01:35:56,279 --> 01:36:00,079 Unomius by Sant gregan Nissa. He also argues many many times in the book. 1085 01:36:00,079 --> 01:36:04,000 It's like eight hundred pages on the essence inary distinction basis. So anybody 1086 01:36:04,039 --> 01:36:09,039 familiar with the Cappadocians and who has reading comprehension, has read the context. 1087 01:36:09,039 --> 01:36:11,680 I'm not talking about you, it's about the Roman Catholics. They would know 1088 01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:15,119 that the whole locus of the argumentation is literally premise on the essencenary sinction. 1089 01:36:15,199 --> 01:36:19,840 It's stupid. In fact, Saint Cyril says in the Two Letters Toistic Census, 1090 01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:24,600 he argues the essence inary distinction there to explain the Eucharist, Like, 1091 01:36:24,800 --> 01:36:28,640 what are you eating in the Eucharist if it's not the body, blood, 1092 01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,760 sohole and uncreated energy that's present there. Okay, So Romancalitics believe in the 1093 01:36:31,760 --> 01:36:35,039 real presence. They don't believe it's the essence of God. They don't believe 1094 01:36:35,039 --> 01:36:40,640 that it's They probably are going to argue that it's a created accident or a 1095 01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:44,520 supernatural created substance, whatever route they want to go. It doesn't matter because 1096 01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:48,640 ephesis has already settled that it's the uncreated energies. Saint Cyril argues consistently that 1097 01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:53,960 it's the energies that deify the human nature of Christ, the same energies that 1098 01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:59,039 deify the Eucharist. How could that be if there's no essence initistinction. And 1099 01:36:59,039 --> 01:37:01,880 if you read the debate between Palamas and barleyon, the whole debate shifts to 1100 01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:06,800 what are we participating in? And that's a much easier way to refute this. 1101 01:37:08,000 --> 01:37:13,000 Because Roman Catholics can talk all day long about formal distinctions and scodism and 1102 01:37:13,039 --> 01:37:15,600 this and that, Okay, let's set all that aside, and what are 1103 01:37:15,600 --> 01:37:19,600 we participating in because if it's an uncreated light that we're taking up, or 1104 01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:21,920 is it a created light? And by the way, the easiest way to 1105 01:37:21,960 --> 01:37:27,479 refute this is if you go through my Theophanes lecture. This is my new 1106 01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:30,079 way to approach this whole question. The Theophanes, clear as day, especially 1107 01:37:30,079 --> 01:37:35,840 in Leviticus, say that it's the glory of God that's present in those manifestations. 1108 01:37:36,079 --> 01:37:39,640 Well, that's not a creature. Unless a ro Macalochys wonist say that's 1109 01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:45,239 a creature. This undoes their whole ads doctrine. Yeah, I am familiar 1110 01:37:45,319 --> 01:37:48,880 with the sort of Franciscan halfway of participation. But I see what you mean. 1111 01:37:49,239 --> 01:37:54,640 Okay, but what are the Theophanies? Yeah, I see what you 1112 01:37:54,720 --> 01:38:00,159 mean, because if if if one were to posit that, yeah, look 1113 01:38:00,159 --> 01:38:02,560 at the strongest case in that because they have to be completely God without being 1114 01:38:02,640 --> 01:38:09,199 as essence exactly. Yeah, and it multiple times over, especially in leveticas 1115 01:38:10,279 --> 01:38:14,560 it says the glory of the Lord appeared to all of Israel when the when 1116 01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:17,439 the cloud comes down. Okay, is that a creature? Is God's glory 1117 01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:20,600 a creature? God says he doesn't give his glory to creatures, right, 1118 01:38:21,640 --> 01:38:25,039 so I guess and no, and no Roman Calolk, by the way, 1119 01:38:25,039 --> 01:38:29,000 believes that it's the essence of God. No, yeah, that's true. 1120 01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:32,359 Uh well, I guess my what tends to happen with these patristics is, 1121 01:38:32,359 --> 01:38:38,920 and I will check what you've referenced beyond what I've already read. But what 1122 01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:44,039 tends to happen these patristics is one will attempt to read like, say, 1123 01:38:44,079 --> 01:38:47,439 it's letter two thirty four in the light of ads and say, yeah, 1124 01:38:47,439 --> 01:38:50,399 that's what Taylor Marshall did ten years ago. Yeah. Oh, I'm not 1125 01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:54,479 even a ware that he commented on this, but yeah, so he So 1126 01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:57,439 one would try to read it in the sense that you know, this is 1127 01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:00,279 speaking of this is how we know God. So it's simply an act of 1128 01:39:00,319 --> 01:39:02,800 the intellect. You see what I mean? Right? But see, the 1129 01:39:03,359 --> 01:39:09,680 argument that's made is that, especially the Cappadocians and Impelmas later on argues that 1130 01:39:10,439 --> 01:39:14,319 the same distinction between the persons is the same distinction, but the level of 1131 01:39:14,359 --> 01:39:17,600 distinction is the same as between the persons and the essence center distinction. Yeah, 1132 01:39:17,680 --> 01:39:23,640 that's that's because usually the report that I see made is that well, 1133 01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:27,239 we can make real distinctions between the persons because we affirm that each of the 1134 01:39:27,279 --> 01:39:31,920 persons are identical to the essence, whereas with the essen Centergy distinction, we're 1135 01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:35,239 saying that it is really distinct. So how is there not a higher divinity 1136 01:39:35,319 --> 01:39:39,720 that both are identical to you? See what I mean? It's literally no 1137 01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:45,640 different than the doctrine of hypo in hypostasis, which is that the divine essence 1138 01:39:45,840 --> 01:39:49,720 in endwells each of the persons fully. So if you say that parachorsis and 1139 01:39:50,039 --> 01:39:53,920 that the divine nature exists in the mode of the persons that have it in 1140 01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:58,479 the trinity, it's identical to the same position of saying that God is fully 1141 01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:01,079 present in every one of his operations, and his operations are really distinct, 1142 01:40:01,199 --> 01:40:08,560 So that there's literally no difference in the metaphysical toolkit and explanation that's used. 1143 01:40:09,279 --> 01:40:12,800 And by the way, that terminology again is not even the terminology of the 1144 01:40:12,840 --> 01:40:15,920 Fifth and sixth Council. If you look at the Fifth Council when it argues 1145 01:40:15,960 --> 01:40:23,279 about in hypostasis, it uses the notion of the divine essence being fully present 1146 01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:29,279 in each person without diminution separation or division. And so the same argument and 1147 01:40:29,359 --> 01:40:33,640 principle is applied in the medieval disputes, in the Byzantine disputes with the energies. 1148 01:40:34,239 --> 01:40:38,359 So just as the divine essence can be fully present in each of the 1149 01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:42,960 persons without diminuition, division or separation or hierarchy, as you said, so 1150 01:40:43,279 --> 01:40:46,119 likewise God can be fully present in every one of his energies without separation, 1151 01:40:46,239 --> 01:40:49,720 dimunition, or division. That's why even Maximus makes this argument about the energies 1152 01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:55,199 where he said that he says God is indivisibly divided amongst his infinite energies. 1153 01:40:57,439 --> 01:41:00,760 This is a famous Maximus quote on the energy. So I wasn't even speaking 1154 01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:05,039 in the case of hierarchy in the sense that the essence is the higher divinity. 1155 01:41:05,119 --> 01:41:09,720 What I meant is that I see the argument brought up which I can't 1156 01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:12,720 really answer, and that's why I'm in a weird spot. Is that if 1157 01:41:13,039 --> 01:41:16,760 the essence is God and the energy is God, do they necessarily positive divinity 1158 01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:20,720 that they both possess that are not identical to either. And the same way 1159 01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:25,119 that you know, Father is the essence, the Spirit is the essence, 1160 01:41:25,159 --> 01:41:30,560 the Son is the essence, but they're not each other. Stated again, 1161 01:41:30,600 --> 01:41:35,720 what's the question? Sorry? So what I mean is that the essence we 1162 01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:41,680 would agree that the essence is God, and so are his energies correct, 1163 01:41:43,079 --> 01:41:45,439 yes, but they're distinct from each other. So in the way in the 1164 01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:51,239 in the ADS system, how the oneness of God is maintained with the persons 1165 01:41:51,399 --> 01:41:55,960 is that they're each identical to his essence, yet not identical to each other. 1166 01:41:56,520 --> 01:42:01,239 So if the issue with the essence energy distinction that I'm troubling to go 1167 01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:06,000 through is the fact that if God's energy is not his essence, there's a 1168 01:42:06,079 --> 01:42:11,000 real distinction, as you put it, as real as the persons. What 1169 01:42:11,399 --> 01:42:15,000 is the divinity that both the energy and the essence share you know what I 1170 01:42:15,079 --> 01:42:19,920 mean, or not even share, but both can be identified with. Well, 1171 01:42:19,960 --> 01:42:25,760 the energy is manifest and proceed from the essence. So as Bezil says, 1172 01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:29,199 for example, again going back to his proof for the full deity of 1173 01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:33,680 the person's spirit, he argues, that energy signifies essence, so it proceeds 1174 01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:38,920 from that essence. But that doesn't mean essence act. It's persons that act. 1175 01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:43,479 Persons with natures act to do this or that thing. So maybe the 1176 01:42:43,520 --> 01:42:47,279 confusion is coming with the Roman Catholic idea that person is identical to nature. 1177 01:42:47,319 --> 01:42:51,600 We don't believe that exactly. John Damascus says that the root of all heresies 1178 01:42:51,680 --> 01:42:57,039 is to confuse nature in person. So the distinction here is again we would 1179 01:42:57,039 --> 01:43:00,479 actually argue another type of distinction and say, yeah, actually nature and person 1180 01:43:00,520 --> 01:43:05,039 are really distinct, as are the persons amongst themselves, as is the as 1181 01:43:05,079 --> 01:43:09,479 are the energies from the essence. All of those are quote real distinctions for 1182 01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:12,600 us. They're all that they're all the same. You wouldn't say that the 1183 01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:15,159 sun is the same thing as the divine essence. Well, again, there's 1184 01:43:15,239 --> 01:43:18,399 there's an is a predication, and it is of identity. So the son 1185 01:43:18,560 --> 01:43:24,399 has the divine essence because he receives it from the Father. But no, 1186 01:43:24,560 --> 01:43:28,920 we do not reduce. This is a reductionist, modalist move to reduce person 1187 01:43:28,960 --> 01:43:31,760 and nature. It's just another it's just another mistake of absolute divine simplicity. 1188 01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:35,880 And let me show you how that's an impossible position. If God is reducible 1189 01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:39,920 too, if the persons are reducible, too identical to the essence in a 1190 01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:45,079 strict identitarian sense, then how do you have one hypostasis entering into time and 1191 01:43:45,159 --> 01:43:51,079 space and the other two not. Yeah, that the incarnation always seemed puzzling 1192 01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:58,119 exactly because an absolute divine simplicity being who is pure act, reduced to his 1193 01:43:58,239 --> 01:44:02,640 own essence as pure act, cannot be incarnate in time and space in one 1194 01:44:02,760 --> 01:44:05,960 mode, in one person where the other two persons are not. It undoes 1195 01:44:06,199 --> 01:44:11,399 the incarnation. That's why in the Suma, Thomas says that we have to 1196 01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:15,760 predicate that any of the persons could have become incarnate. Correct, And that's 1197 01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:20,199 false, that's totally that's absolutely against orthodoxy because Jesus says that no one has 1198 01:44:20,239 --> 01:44:24,279 seen the Father at any time. If no one has seen the Father at 1199 01:44:24,279 --> 01:44:27,159 any time, who are all these theophanies throughout the old So in other words, 1200 01:44:27,319 --> 01:44:30,520 we're just totally divorced from the Hebrew Bible, which is the crazy part. 1201 01:44:31,279 --> 01:44:35,119 Well, well, I think he's saying could not necessarily have, but 1202 01:44:35,159 --> 01:44:38,760 I don't see how. No, no, no, no. But again, 1203 01:44:38,840 --> 01:44:41,760 the argument, if you read John five through nine, the argument Jesus 1204 01:44:41,840 --> 01:44:45,800 makes is that no one ever can see the Father. The Father doesn't become 1205 01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:50,239 incarnate. So who was Moses talking to on Mount Sini? Nexcess thirty three, 1206 01:44:50,279 --> 01:44:55,520 who is Abraham eating a meal with right And Jesus says in John eight 1207 01:44:55,680 --> 01:44:59,079 that I was there with Abraham. Oh no, yeah, I hold that 1208 01:44:59,279 --> 01:45:01,680 right. The was the Christ he cannot hold up. Yeah, yeah, 1209 01:45:01,800 --> 01:45:05,159 so I think. But if you want a specific text, I think probably 1210 01:45:05,199 --> 01:45:11,640 the best at this point on that issue would be the I mean, you 1211 01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:15,439 could read Penos text, it's pretty complicated, but actually the Palamite Synods have 1212 01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:19,199 been translated by Norman Russell uh and I just finished reading all four of those 1213 01:45:19,279 --> 01:45:23,199 a couple of months ago. That's a good thing to read. I would 1214 01:45:23,239 --> 01:45:27,680 read John Damascus is on the Orthodox Faith, particularly book three, because you'll 1215 01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:30,199 notice if you read book one on the Orthodox Faith he does positive usen sentergy 1216 01:45:30,279 --> 01:45:36,039 sinction, but he actually in book three, when he gets to Christology, 1217 01:45:38,560 --> 01:45:43,239 he lets the rubber hit the road by applying the energies in a very precise, 1218 01:45:43,720 --> 01:45:47,479 much clearer way in Christology than what we see just in talking about the 1219 01:45:47,560 --> 01:45:51,880 trinity in chapter one. So book three is really key, particularly chapter fifteen, 1220 01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:56,039 because if you read book three fifteen, that's literally where he starts talking 1221 01:45:56,079 --> 01:46:00,960 about the energies in Christ. He talks about even the dif cation of the 1222 01:46:00,079 --> 01:46:05,479 flesh of Christ via his uncreated immortal life. Well, now what is that? 1223 01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:10,520 That's not the divine essence? What is it? Now? I've also, 1224 01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:15,600 in many, many times on Twitter put up the quotes from Aquinas. 1225 01:46:15,279 --> 01:46:18,199 Where have you seen? I think it's Dave Veritati is the work, but 1226 01:46:18,279 --> 01:46:24,560 it's in the Ralph mcinnery collection of Tomistic stuff. Have you seen where Aquinas 1227 01:46:25,159 --> 01:46:31,520 deals with John Damascus's essence indistinction and rejects it. I think I'm familiar when 1228 01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:35,039 he says we have to take he posits a heat. Right afterwards into the 1229 01:46:35,039 --> 01:46:39,000 objection, he posits some that we have. I think Augustin was clearer on 1230 01:46:39,119 --> 01:46:43,359 this. Something along the Well, do you know who he cites? No, 1231 01:46:44,319 --> 01:46:48,399 probably he cites Mymones. Yeah, he said. He says as as 1232 01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:56,039 a rabbi. Moses says God can't have real distinctions because that would mean that 1233 01:46:56,079 --> 01:47:00,000 God has accidents. Okay, but you see energies and energies are not acts. 1234 01:47:00,399 --> 01:47:05,199 But that's relevant because he's explicitly arguing and rejecting John Damascus's essence intistinction. 1235 01:47:05,319 --> 01:47:11,600 That means us that lets us know that Aquinas understands John Damascus to be teaching 1236 01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:15,079 the essenceistinction and that he rejects it. So every time a Roman Catholic goes 1237 01:47:15,119 --> 01:47:18,560 and tries to re reword John Damascus as if he's teaching some sort of only 1238 01:47:18,680 --> 01:47:21,840 conceptual distinction for the energies as preposterous. By the way, how do you 1239 01:47:21,880 --> 01:47:28,000 participate in a conception to be deified? Is it new conceptions deifias? Or 1240 01:47:28,039 --> 01:47:32,159 does it? Is it the uncreated glory of John seventeen that Jesus came to 1241 01:47:32,239 --> 01:47:36,960 bring. Yeah, I mean to be frank with you, when I I, 1242 01:47:39,039 --> 01:47:42,880 mostly through Jonathan Pejo, was very close to converting to Orthodoxy because it 1243 01:47:43,079 --> 01:47:46,880 made more intrinsic sense in like I thought the essence energy distinction was. I 1244 01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:50,520 was like, oh, this is a really cool position because it's it separates 1245 01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:56,279 the quote unquote monotheistic fates. You know, yeah, right. But but 1246 01:47:56,399 --> 01:47:58,800 then what I ran into is I just couldn't respond to the you know, 1247 01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:01,880 the polytheism, those kinds of objections, and I'm you know, I'm like, 1248 01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:05,640 well, maybe this couldn't been the faith of the Apostles because it was 1249 01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:11,359 YadA YadA, Yada's Well, if you read if you read Bradshaw's book Arisol 1250 01:48:11,359 --> 01:48:15,880 East and West. The first three chapters deals with this notion of what the 1251 01:48:16,000 --> 01:48:23,319 Cappadocians considered divine simplicity to be, and they don't first and foremost start with 1252 01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:31,000 the Plutinian Augustinian Originist definition of simplicity. So if you read Platinis Origin and 1253 01:48:31,039 --> 01:48:38,560 First Principles Book one in Augustine, they all have a very platonic neoplatonic definition 1254 01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:42,520 of what simplicity is and must be. And for them, it's pretty it's 1255 01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,319 pretty much cash out as no distinctions. So it's an absolute unity with no 1256 01:48:45,439 --> 01:48:51,439 distinctions. That's not that's not the move that the Cappadocians make when they argue 1257 01:48:51,479 --> 01:48:58,680 the triad and why it's not three gods. For them, the first principle 1258 01:48:58,840 --> 01:49:01,439 is that God is not acted upon. God acts, but is not acted 1259 01:49:01,520 --> 01:49:05,439 upon, and then they move to things like that he's not composed, he's 1260 01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:10,199 not in time and space in his essence, he's not changeable or passable, 1261 01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:15,000 right, And they do that because they argue that no triad is how we 1262 01:49:15,119 --> 01:49:18,920 begin with God. We don't begin with the order of theology from the divine 1263 01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:25,920 essence. We begin with the person of the Father and the three the two 1264 01:49:26,000 --> 01:49:29,199 that come from the Father, and that it's revealed that he is one. 1265 01:49:29,560 --> 01:49:31,319 Right, So we don't begin with essence. We begin with the Father. 1266 01:49:31,479 --> 01:49:35,119 The Father is the source of unity, not the divine essence itself. We 1267 01:49:35,199 --> 01:49:42,039 don't know the divine essence, right, So that God is one, well, 1268 01:49:42,159 --> 01:49:45,000 that God is one is revealed to us through there being one Father. 1269 01:49:45,239 --> 01:49:48,479 That's why the creed actually starts with unity in the person of the Father, 1270 01:49:48,600 --> 01:49:53,199 not the divine essence. We believe in one God, the divine Essence. 1271 01:49:53,359 --> 01:49:58,000 No, exactly. So it's monarchical trinitarianism. And if you follow through consistently, 1272 01:49:58,119 --> 01:50:01,640 if you watch doctor bo Brandson's lectures on an article tranitarianism from the Capitocians, 1273 01:50:01,920 --> 01:50:06,000 it will lead you to the essen centeris stinction because it's not premised on 1274 01:50:08,199 --> 01:50:12,640 assuming a metaphysical simplicity that we then have to figure out how there's distinctions in. 1275 01:50:13,239 --> 01:50:15,279 It starts with the person of the Father as the principle of unity, 1276 01:50:15,319 --> 01:50:19,399 as the capit Doocians say, and then it moves to the triad revealed via 1277 01:50:19,479 --> 01:50:23,600 the energies. So it's a totally different order of theology. Yeah, I 1278 01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:28,239 see what you mean. It's almost like because it's almost like you're speaking of 1279 01:50:28,319 --> 01:50:31,600 Plato's divine architect and then seeing how there can be the Trinity with you. 1280 01:50:31,720 --> 01:50:36,520 Now, that's literally where so when Platonis defines simplicity, and it's the same 1281 01:50:36,640 --> 01:50:41,279 literally, the same definition used by Origin and First Principles and by Augustine and 1282 01:50:41,359 --> 01:50:46,600 on the Trinity, and also in Confessions, it's literally that it's the Platonic 1283 01:50:46,680 --> 01:50:50,760 idea of what simplicity is. And that's not what the capd Doceians do. 1284 01:50:50,840 --> 01:50:54,399 They don't say if you read the Rodi Galwitz thesis, which I did a 1285 01:50:54,439 --> 01:51:00,560 whole lecture on Raetagalwitz basically just goes through all the church fathers prior to the 1286 01:51:00,600 --> 01:51:05,920 Cappadocians and then focuses mainly on Basil and Basil's idea of simplicity, and he 1287 01:51:06,279 --> 01:51:11,119 points out that like the it's it's the essence center. Distinction is the only 1288 01:51:11,199 --> 01:51:15,520 way to know God in Basil. And would you chalk that up to the 1289 01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:19,439 historicity being that Christianity was more, you know, aboriginal to the Greek world. 1290 01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:26,720 Whereas Augustin himself even admits that when he reconcile Neoplatonism with Christianity, that's 1291 01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:30,159 when he converted. I think that's part of the picture. But I actually 1292 01:51:30,239 --> 01:51:33,439 think that, as doctor Bradshaw argues in his in his article and essays, 1293 01:51:33,800 --> 01:51:39,880 no, it's actually Hebrew. The Orthodox position is faithful to the Hebrew revelation 1294 01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:44,560 because the acids entergy sinction a lah, doctor Bradshaw, is what's in Exodus. 1295 01:51:45,720 --> 01:51:46,239 No, no, no, that's what I mean. I just mean 1296 01:51:46,279 --> 01:51:51,199 that Christianity, like literally through Paul, moved to the Greek world, whereas 1297 01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:56,560 the more western world of you know what what at that time was Roman, 1298 01:51:56,640 --> 01:51:58,920 France and Italy. Oh, I see you're saying, yeah, yeah. 1299 01:51:59,399 --> 01:52:03,600 Bradshaw has a good point on this where he argues that in Greek there was 1300 01:52:03,720 --> 01:52:11,039 actually more terminology and toolkit to make the distinction between essence energy and that in 1301 01:52:11,239 --> 01:52:15,039 Latin they don't even have that toolkit, so it didn't make sense to them. 1302 01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:17,119 Yeah. All right, Well, I don't want to take up too 1303 01:52:17,159 --> 01:52:19,199 much of your time, but I'll definitely No, those are great questions. 1304 01:52:19,239 --> 01:52:23,680 Yeah, definitely check out those things that I mentioned there to appreciate those questions. 1305 01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:33,359 There. Let's see, welcome father Deacon. Let's see, so it's 1306 01:52:33,479 --> 01:52:39,680 an open discussion. We got an atheist coming on, Father deacon or either 1307 01:52:42,960 --> 01:53:03,079 I'm mute FDA area there can you I mute Hello. I can't hear anybody 1308 01:53:03,159 --> 01:53:12,760 so far. I'm gonna have to go to the little girls room. So 1309 01:53:12,960 --> 01:53:15,479 if you would just everybody hold on a second, I'll be right back. 1310 01:53:15,079 --> 01:53:18,960 Do watch this wonderful, beautiful ad that I have for you, guys, 1311 01:53:20,439 --> 01:53:26,119 and that is our show sponsor. That is the Bazed Awesome company that you 1312 01:53:26,199 --> 01:53:30,840 see me wearing here across my chest. I'm gonna put you on something crazy 1313 01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:35,399 real quick. Most of these zoomer Jimbros are consuming macro guzzling synthetic dies and 1314 01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:40,880 synthetic sweeteners on the daily. They don't even know it. Goofy af, 1315 01:53:41,159 --> 01:53:44,920 There's nothing great about that. Do not listen any further unless you are an 1316 01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:48,279 Alpha or Sigma male. This is important and there could be consequences. 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In 1340 01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:56,399 fact, I think the star of the conference was doctor Nathan Jacobs, who's 1341 01:55:56,680 --> 01:56:08,319 written with doctor David and he basically gave a whole breakdown of where Western or 1342 01:56:08,359 --> 01:56:14,680 where the West went wrong with their theology. Started with Augustine. We went 1343 01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:19,800 into the christophany, everything you were saying, and he went into essence, 1344 01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:27,640 energies, distinction. How this resolved the problem. What was really amazing about 1345 01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:30,399 what he did is everything that we've been saying for years, and these are 1346 01:56:30,439 --> 01:56:38,119 difficult concepts, he just broke down layer by layer and a really approachable way 1347 01:56:38,800 --> 01:56:44,760 of you know, why did they come up with created grace? What happened 1348 01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:49,239 tying into Greek philosophy? Why did they come up with this Augustinian divine simplicity? 1349 01:56:49,319 --> 01:56:55,279 And what kind of impact that had, and then ultimately tied it into 1350 01:56:56,880 --> 01:57:04,520 why is their notion of anthropology's faulty? Good? Yeah, the thoryology everything, 1351 01:57:05,319 --> 01:57:11,279 like the whole history of the collapse of Western theology and its problems in 1352 01:57:11,399 --> 01:57:19,079 Rome. He just went through the whole historical in philosophical analysis of in a 1353 01:57:19,119 --> 01:57:23,960 way that people who had never even heard of it got it. Yeah. 1354 01:57:23,960 --> 01:57:29,239 I mean, let's just look at how removed from the actual text that system 1355 01:57:29,399 --> 01:57:32,079 is. Right, Aaron lifted his hands towards the people and blessed them, 1356 01:57:32,159 --> 01:57:35,760 and came down from the offering of the sin offering and the burnt offering and 1357 01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:40,359 the peace offering. Moses and Aaron went into the tabernacle meeting and came out 1358 01:57:40,399 --> 01:57:44,560 and blessed the people. Then the glory of the Lord appeared to all the 1359 01:57:44,760 --> 01:57:48,039 people, and fire came out from before the Lord and consumed the burnt offering 1360 01:57:48,119 --> 01:57:51,439 on the altar. Then all the people saw it, and they shouted, 1361 01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:57,560 and they fell prostrate on their faces. So notice in this text very clearly 1362 01:57:59,239 --> 01:58:03,960 that the theophany here is called the Glory of the Lord. So it's not 1363 01:58:04,079 --> 01:58:10,239 created and no Roman Catholic believes that the divine essence is in time and space, 1364 01:58:10,359 --> 01:58:14,479 and they don't believe that it's created. This is an ender for that 1365 01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:16,920 whole stupid position. And as I said a thousand times, and as that 1366 01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:20,439 guy that was just on here realized if you heard him say it, like, 1367 01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:26,000 if you have a problem with this with the Theophanes and the Old Testament, 1368 01:58:26,960 --> 01:58:29,520 then doesn't it stand the reason that you're also going to have a problem 1369 01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:34,960 with the incarnation because it's just another type of theophany. It's one hypostasis in 1370 01:58:35,039 --> 01:58:39,600 time and space. The other two hypostaces are not in time and space. 1371 01:58:40,239 --> 01:58:44,800 And so this whole absolute divine simplicity, reducing God to his essence and to 1372 01:58:44,960 --> 01:58:50,800 pure act literally makes this impossible. When they reject the position of God in 1373 01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:56,159 time and space or the uncreated in time and space like this, they don't 1374 01:58:56,159 --> 01:59:01,479 even realize they're undercutting their own incarnation position. So it's stupid what we brought 1375 01:59:01,560 --> 01:59:05,479 up to. So during Q and A, after he explained this, I 1376 01:59:05,560 --> 01:59:10,359 went up because we had two philosophers that were able to talk about this, 1377 01:59:11,279 --> 01:59:15,319 and and the Q and A were able to draw a connection to this is 1378 01:59:15,520 --> 01:59:20,520 precisely because the Muslims are stuck in the same paradigm. Yeah, that they 1379 01:59:20,720 --> 01:59:25,960 end up basically saying, why do they have a problem with the incarnation? 1380 01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:31,520 God can't enter into space and time, he can't be and so that was 1381 01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:36,640 an interesting Yeah, they're more consistent if God. If God is an absolutely 1382 01:59:36,680 --> 01:59:42,319 simple essence and he's reduced to that, then an absolutely simple essence doesn't come 1383 01:59:42,359 --> 01:59:45,520 in the time of space. And Muslims are more consistent than Tonus. Yeah, 1384 01:59:46,279 --> 01:59:53,039 great point. Also another great point too, is it destroys the notion 1385 01:59:53,159 --> 02:00:00,840 of the trinity too, because we went into a discussion about and you see 1386 02:00:00,880 --> 02:00:05,439 this in the Reformers, because there was also a critique of Calvins Wingley and 1387 02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:13,640 all these guys at Athos. They don't have the monarchy of the father right, 1388 02:00:13,800 --> 02:00:16,800 and so they actually have to say that essence is Yes, so detached 1389 02:00:17,000 --> 02:00:23,239 essence apart from person is the cause of the persons. I actually, yeah, 1390 02:00:23,560 --> 02:00:28,439 you'll love this. But the Deacon, because I just read in this 1391 02:00:30,720 --> 02:00:34,399 Uh So we were on a two week road trip and I got the chance 1392 02:00:34,479 --> 02:00:41,760 to read probably three fourths of this book The Cambridge Companion to Western Mysticism and 1393 02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:47,239 Esotericism, and a couple of chapters dealt with medieval Latin mystics, and I 1394 02:00:47,279 --> 02:00:49,199 didn't actually think it was going to be that interesting. I thought it was 1395 02:00:49,239 --> 02:00:53,279 gonna be kind of weird and boring. But no, it's actually very relevant 1396 02:00:53,399 --> 02:01:00,399 to illustrating this very issue that medieval Roman Catholicism was constantly struggling between, on 1397 02:01:00,479 --> 02:01:04,479 the one hand, their mystics and the pension that the mystics had for quote, 1398 02:01:04,560 --> 02:01:10,800 union with God and then being condemned by the Church because of a positing 1399 02:01:10,840 --> 02:01:15,119 a quote a real union. And I'm not saying those mystics were Orthodox, 1400 02:01:15,239 --> 02:01:18,800 but they were actually hitting at one of the points that an absolutely simple essence 1401 02:01:19,199 --> 02:01:25,760 can't give, which is real participation. So the mystics were critiquing the scholastics 1402 02:01:26,199 --> 02:01:30,199 and reacting against it, but that what they were searching for is what orthodox 1403 02:01:30,239 --> 02:01:31,560 he had. I'm not saying they actually had it, but they were looking 1404 02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:34,279 for something that was a problem because it's like, well, wait, a 1405 02:01:34,279 --> 02:01:38,680 minutef God's is absolutely simple essence. I can't be united to him. I 1406 02:01:38,760 --> 02:01:43,119 can only be united to him by analogy or by a participation in some creature 1407 02:01:43,159 --> 02:01:46,399 that's analogous to him, created grace or whatever. And so what happened is 1408 02:01:46,479 --> 02:01:54,760 the medieval mystics in the Latin Church tended towards pantheism, ecstasy, henosis, 1409 02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:58,960 and the notion of a flight of the soul away from the body, towards 1410 02:02:00,079 --> 02:02:04,960 Neoplatonian union, right, so they had to constantly they were going back. 1411 02:02:04,960 --> 02:02:10,640 It's dialectics what I'm saying. You either get this pantheistic emerging into God with 1412 02:02:11,359 --> 02:02:15,319 meister Eckhart. Who are the medieval mystics here to talk about this a Regina, 1413 02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:24,199 Meister Eckhart, Jean Garson, Nicholas of Cusa. These are all mystics 1414 02:02:24,920 --> 02:02:30,479 who are unsatisfied with scholasticism. And while they're not getting the essence indistinction part 1415 02:02:30,600 --> 02:02:35,800 right, they're looking for a real union that the created grace doesn't give them. 1416 02:02:35,840 --> 02:02:40,439 Isn't that interesting? Yeah, we just discussed that too. It's like 1417 02:02:41,159 --> 02:02:46,199 for the West, that's the only way you can go h dialectics. And 1418 02:02:46,279 --> 02:02:54,760 not only that too. What was really interesting, it was incredible all the 1419 02:02:54,880 --> 02:03:01,920 haters, right, all the people pushing Penal's substitutionary atonement are stinning original sin. 1420 02:03:02,399 --> 02:03:05,199 I mean, we covered it all like I would have been great for 1421 02:03:05,319 --> 02:03:11,439 them to hear. And why Augustine in the West all the way going through 1422 02:03:11,760 --> 02:03:19,079 even medieval times and Scholasticism couldn't get the whole will and like this back and 1423 02:03:19,199 --> 02:03:24,560 forth between Pelagian it's like, well, Augustine's wrong on this, but if 1424 02:03:24,560 --> 02:03:27,159 you try to correct now, all of a sudden you're a Pelagian, right. 1425 02:03:27,439 --> 02:03:31,399 And they had no kind of paradigm to resolve these problems. The entire 1426 02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:35,479 history of the West is just going back and forth, falling into either one 1427 02:03:35,520 --> 02:03:40,279 of these kind of dialectics, like you said, with either this kind of 1428 02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:49,079 the mysticism and kind of collapsing intomonism, or or dealing with uh ceteria. Sorry,