1 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,280 Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them. 2 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,399 My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by 3 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,879 Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're 4 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:32,079 all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists who practice out of Chicago. 5 00:00:32,399 --> 00:00:36,439 Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment 6 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,640 purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please 7 00:00:40,679 --> 00:00:44,280 remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist. 8 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,520 If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local mental 9 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:53,320 health provider. Hello everybody, this is our Valentine's Day episode of twenty twenty 10 00:00:53,359 --> 00:00:57,799 three, and we are going to be talking about finally five hundred Days of 11 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,920 Summer. It's the movie that everyone has been asking us to do for like 12 00:01:02,079 --> 00:01:04,760 four seasons, the dawn of time, since the dawn of time. So 13 00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:07,879 here you are, guys, You're getting it. You voted for it, 14 00:01:07,239 --> 00:01:11,079 and you got it. Yep. I'm ashamed of you all that you did 15 00:01:11,079 --> 00:01:14,159 not pick A Knight's Tale I'm going to tell you now it wasn't even in 16 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:19,400 the top three. Yeah, it wasn't. More shame. So five hundred 17 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:23,719 Days of Summer, a brief overview, is about a guy named Tom who 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,439 quote unquote falls in love with a girl that he meets at his work named 19 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:32,359 Summer, and it kind of covers the five hundred days of their relationship, 20 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:36,719 which we're going to talk about. Is it even a relationship because the topic 21 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:44,079 of today's episode is situationships, the term that has risen to prominence amongst common 22 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,400 modern day culture. So what is a situationship? You ask? Thank you 23 00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:53,719 for asking. A situationship is basically a relationship, a dating relationship that's not 24 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:57,560 defined. That's why it's kind of this like ish kind of statement, like 25 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,079 we're in a situation ish ship because you can't define it as an actual girlfriend, 26 00:02:02,079 --> 00:02:06,120 boyfriend, boyfriend, boyfriend, whatever, committed relationship. But you're also 27 00:02:06,239 --> 00:02:10,599 not just friends. It's this horrible purgatory limbo territory that a lot of people 28 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,680 find themselves in nowadays. And it was interesting to watch a movie that is 29 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:21,639 from twenty two thousand and nine that so perfectly demonstrates what I would consider a 30 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:24,639 situation ship. Yes, because right around to two thousand and five, thanks 31 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:32,840 to Facebook and it's lovely, lovely addition of it's complicated, we created a 32 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,240 whole generation of people who had gone from having parents look at them and going, 33 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:43,520 why are these little kids out here acting like they're married? When we 34 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,400 used to just date people. The number of times my parents had those conversations 35 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:51,319 with me of like, why don't you guys date more people? You go 36 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,560 on a date with Katie and you go on a date with Sarah and you 37 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:59,000 go on a date with Jill. Why you don't just pick one person and 38 00:02:59,039 --> 00:03:04,159 start dating them or fifteen? But that was not the way our generation did 39 00:03:04,199 --> 00:03:07,479 things. We had all these little marriages. Everybody we dated was a little 40 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:12,560 marriage. It was a serious relationship we were dedicated to. And then Facebook 41 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:16,800 came along and went it's complicated, and we went there's another option. Well, 42 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,000 And also I think it's kind of risen with you know, not to 43 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,000 get two sidetracked, but I think it's kind of a risen from which is 44 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,719 a hallmark that you're going to get sidetracked as probably as we I think progressed 45 00:03:27,719 --> 00:03:34,879 societally and female presenting people like women have become more empowered with their sexuality. 46 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,879 I think it's also developed this murky territory of like friends with benefits sort of 47 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:42,479 hookup culture. Like, I think there's a lot of elements that have led 48 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:47,360 to creation of this limbo territory where for some reason or another, we can't 49 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,439 define this relationship. Yes, and I think this movie is a clear version 50 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:58,280 of one of those kind of situations, which is one person wants it to 51 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:04,840 be more Tom and one person doesn't Summer. And I think situationships occur because 52 00:04:04,879 --> 00:04:11,639 one or both parties is not willing to define the relationship for whatever reason. 53 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,439 So I think going into this movie specifically, we're introduced to Tom, and 54 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:23,360 right away we're introduced to someone who is very romantically inclined and maybe also not 55 00:04:23,399 --> 00:04:27,879 the most emotionally intelligent about romance. Like the way they introduced his character is 56 00:04:27,879 --> 00:04:30,040 is that he loves the graduate, watches it repeatedly, and has a total 57 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:36,480 misunderstanding of it, Like he doesn't understand that the ending is mixed to tragic, 58 00:04:36,959 --> 00:04:41,959 yeah, and not romantic the way that he's interpreting it at a young 59 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,199 age, which is common for people to watch movies like that that have so 60 00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:54,040 much zeitgeist around them, that they get lost in the nostalgia of it and 61 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:59,399 fail to understand not nostalgia's not the right word. The right word, it'll 62 00:04:59,399 --> 00:05:01,480 be a placeholder to the right where it comes to my brain. But yeah, 63 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,519 they get lost in the mythos of it. Yes, I think it's 64 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,480 it's very much romanticizing romance. I think a lot of what people must undertain 65 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:14,240 about The Graduate, and I think what they're saying in this movie is that 66 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,879 romance is enough, like the thrill of like the sort of the lust excitement 67 00:05:18,079 --> 00:05:21,959 period is enough to sustain because in The Graduate, which I haven't watched in 68 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,360 forever, kind of the ending of it kind of signifies like these are two 69 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,680 people that have not actually gotten to know each other very well. Nope, 70 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,439 and they don't know what they're doing. They're just in the moment, caught 71 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,639 up in the passion, if you will, and the confusion, and to 72 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,199 people who don't know who they are, who think they'll find each other in 73 00:05:39,199 --> 00:05:42,360 each other. And I think that's Tom to a t Well. Yeah, 74 00:05:42,399 --> 00:05:47,079 and he creates the same problem around that movie, Like the romanticizing of a 75 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:54,879 romance is that they start thinking about how they'll tell the story, and they 76 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,519 think about how they're going to maintain integrity to the story they're going to be 77 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,879 telling their grandchildren about how they met their grandma, and they fail to understand 78 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:10,240 that this person that they're assigning these attributes to that they're telling this story, 79 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:15,480 this is how we met story about that most of their efforts are going into 80 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,160 maintaining the weaving of that story instead of getting to know the person that that 81 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,839 story is about and building the relationship the big Love is about. Instead, 82 00:06:25,879 --> 00:06:29,759 they just want the big love so bad that when they get a story that 83 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:36,639 could feasibly be woven into the big Love, they cannot possibly understand that they're 84 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,639 not seeing the person in front of them. They're just assigning No, No, 85 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,560 she met me this way and she just walked into my life. So 86 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,399 obviously this is the big love, just like all the romantic stories. Because 87 00:06:47,399 --> 00:06:51,360 I think what we can say from the jump with this movie is that Tom 88 00:06:51,399 --> 00:06:55,439 does not see summer. He does not see summer, and he does not 89 00:06:55,560 --> 00:07:00,399 hear summer. He is a person totally in his imagination. He has no 90 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,720 awareness that he doesn't he has no awareness at all about anything. No, 91 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:10,600 she got on an elevator, she was beautiful, she was interesting and quirky, 92 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:15,279 and she liked the Smiths and he never saw that coming. And all 93 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:20,079 of a sudden, his intrigue is spiked and he's woven a story that now 94 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:26,439 she has to fit as the main character because she's there. He's reverse engineering 95 00:07:26,759 --> 00:07:30,879 their situation. That's a good word. Yeah, he is phrase. He 96 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,959 desperately wants to be in love and he wants that to change his life because 97 00:07:33,959 --> 00:07:38,879 he is someone who is letting life happen to him. Like they say established 98 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:42,920 right away that he went to school for architecture, that's his passion, and 99 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,319 yet he fell into a job, which that happens to people in their twenties, 100 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,639 that you fall into the first job you get out of school and then 101 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,800 you just stay there. Well, especially then, this is two thousand and 102 00:07:50,839 --> 00:07:54,839 nine, so it's post recess. Well's right in the recession, it's right 103 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,399 in it, right, Yes, So he got the first job and then 104 00:07:57,439 --> 00:08:00,519 just stayed because there were no other jobs. I mean, they make it 105 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,040 quite clear, like they don't name the time the year in this, But 106 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,920 this didn't occur to me until you just said it. Thinking about it. 107 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:11,120 We were all there, how many of us right in the age group got 108 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:16,240 out of college or grad school with this just full of pisson, vin and 109 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,759 gratitude about to take on the world. And then the big short happened. 110 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:28,040 The economy fell apart, and there was nothing, and those experiences of interview 111 00:08:28,079 --> 00:08:31,720 after interview after interview after interview, and no one taking or taking a job 112 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,000 that you knew was below market value, below your work, and we had 113 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:39,879 people with master's degrees, We're going to Starbucks. One assume the job, 114 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:46,519 especially I assume for his a field, because architecture, I'm assuming I don't 115 00:08:46,519 --> 00:08:50,480 know anything about architectures. That for it always seems to be only a job 116 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:54,559 that people have in movies. Is that that I assume that would be a 117 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,480 career That would be hard to get a job in drawing a recession or like 118 00:08:58,159 --> 00:09:01,600 anyway. So, yeah, it's big finance. It's it's building things that 119 00:09:01,639 --> 00:09:07,000 people don't have money to buy, or the banks don't have the money to 120 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,240 invest into the building from ripping people off with you know, mortgages and other 121 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:16,320 things that they need to finance said building with pretend money. Yeah. So 122 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:18,159 I think where we find Tom at the beginning of this movie is someone who 123 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,120 has stopped looking kind of like he seems like someone who's just getting going along 124 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,159 because it's been like four years or three or four years at the screening card 125 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,919 job, and it doesn't sound like he's been trying to get back into architicture. 126 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,360 It sound like he's staying in the loop with getting a job in his 127 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:37,440 actual field of study during all this, and so he seems like someone well 128 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,399 they do say in the movie, he's always been looking for the one, 129 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,879 right, and so yeah, I think he already had an idea of who 130 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:48,360 he wants in his brain and then Summer shows up, and you're right. 131 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:54,679 She's beautiful, she's got charisma, she ish, and she happens to like 132 00:09:54,840 --> 00:10:00,360 something. Well, I think, well, what they say in the in 133 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:03,679 the movie is that she is kind of standoffish. That's why I was like, 134 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,360 I don't want to, like, you know, attribute her to chrismas 135 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,080 I think in the office she is a little like standoffish. But I think 136 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,960 he projects a lot of stuff onto her, So it doesn't really matter if 137 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,559 she has a quote unquote personality or not, because I think something this movie 138 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,879 does right away is how much all the men project onto her. You know, 139 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,720 she wasn't super friendly in the copy room, So she must be a 140 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,000 bitch. You know, she did said this thing, so maybe she's a 141 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,360 skank. Like all the men in this movie are already without knowing anything about 142 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,240 her or talking to her at all or deciding who she is, yeah, 143 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:45,799 immediately, And so I think she just becomes an object that Tom puts a 144 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,519 lot onto. And I think it's also that misogynistic idea that if a girl 145 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:56,279 has a unique interest, then she's like a unicorn because she has like something 146 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,600 you like. I think that's happened, something that happens a lot, like, 147 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:01,679 Oh, she different than all the other girls. Well, because she 148 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:05,440 has like my thing, like a quirky thing like you said, have been. 149 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:11,159 Well, it's the cool girl idea, right, cool cool girl who 150 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,440 likes the stuff that I like. Like how she could like this Smith. 151 00:11:15,799 --> 00:11:18,639 The Smiths are on the most popular bands. Yeah, that exists absolutely, 152 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,559 And so the fact that she likes the Smith and she's hot, this girl's 153 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,039 from older space. Yeah, Like it just doesn't make any sense at all. 154 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,720 No, But you know, given where he's at in his life, 155 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:37,759 we see him very thoroughly imprint like a little baby bunny. Yes, because 156 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:43,639 I think what was interesting watching this movie now, especially now that I'm older 157 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:48,320 in my thirties, is that she tells him repeatedly, repeatedly throughout the movie, 158 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:52,240 I don't want a boyfriend, she don't want a relationship. Are you 159 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:58,200 cool with me wanting that not being this relationship? Are you sure you're cool? 160 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,720 Are you sure you're cool? Yeah? She checks in, she asks, 161 00:12:01,159 --> 00:12:05,440 she double checks, and Tom just lies to her face every single time. 162 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,279 Yes, there's no equivocation on that. Yeah. He wants her to 163 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,360 be in a place she is not in. He does not maintain his own 164 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:22,159 boundaries out of hope. She does not ever lie to him, She does 165 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:28,440 not misrepresent where she's at what she wants. He imprints upon her his hopes 166 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,279 that she will change her mind. And I don't know about you to other 167 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,840 therapists in the room, but I can think of probably tens of thousands of 168 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:46,600 therapeutic hours I've spent with people going over exactly those situations. Yeah, Because 169 00:12:48,879 --> 00:12:50,639 I mean, this is why I think people fall into situationships a lot and 170 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:56,600 stay in them for long periods of time, is that they aren't being honest 171 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:01,120 about what they want in the relationship, and they're not being honest about what 172 00:13:01,159 --> 00:13:03,720 the other person is actually able to provide them, Like I think she does 173 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:09,679 an ecklent job of communicating it. Yeah, And and I think that a 174 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,039 lot of times what I tell clients, you know, kind of what you're 175 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,440 saying, is I tell clients like, what are what are they telling you? 176 00:13:15,519 --> 00:13:18,919 What are they showing you? Why aren't you believing them what they say? 177 00:13:18,919 --> 00:13:20,399 And they tell you, And then a lot of times we'll say yeah, 178 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,679 but like kind of what you guys have said, like maybe but they're 179 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:26,000 doing this, or maybe they changed their mind. It's that hope out there 180 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:33,360 that people struggle to let go of. And it's also well I was gonna 181 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,000 say, and there's even that scene in the movie where his two friends say, 182 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:39,720 well, have you asked him hast out? Have you asked her to 183 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:41,840 be your girlfriend? And he was like no, like we don't believe in 184 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:45,360 labels. Oh my god. I could go on about that for an hour, 185 00:13:45,639 --> 00:13:50,240 right, and well that's what we're doing. Ye. Well, I 186 00:13:50,279 --> 00:13:52,120 mean people saying that out loud because it's not true. It's never true. 187 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:58,120 And I think what he's really, what he's really saying, is I don't 188 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,639 want to ask because I'm scared if I actually have the conversation with her, 189 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,840 this is gonna be over that's what happened. Well, yeah, absolutely. 190 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:13,039 And I also feel like Tom's not interested in what Summer wants or needs. 191 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,159 He's only interested in what he wants and needs, and he filters everything through 192 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,840 that perception. Yes, absolutely, Like even when like everything she says and 193 00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:26,480 does, I mean this movie is also so in his head, Like when 194 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:28,519 she lets him into her apartment, which is something you would do for a 195 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:31,759 friend, for a guy you're just having sex with, you know what I 196 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:33,679 mean, he like reads into that. He's like, she's letting her walls 197 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:37,159 down, She's letting me in her special place. I bet you that very 198 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:43,279 rarely people. He's ascribing all of this intense meaning to the fact that she's 199 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,159 letting him in her apartment, which is something people do for you know, 200 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,519 plumbers, you know what I mean. Like he's acting like she's this I 201 00:14:52,559 --> 00:14:56,080 think part of the ironic part about the way he's projecting on her, which 202 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,799 I don't think people are aware enough, is he is mystifying her, like 203 00:15:00,039 --> 00:15:05,240 he's creating this whole narrative like she is this unicorn fairy. Yeah, that 204 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:09,440 is still mysterious. And it's not that she's not wanting to be with him, 205 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,039 she's just really guarded and she's such a like he just has to wait 206 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,759 and he just has to wait until she's Yeah, she stops being guarded and 207 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:20,759 then and then she'll really figure out what she wants. And of course that 208 00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:22,919 will be him, of course it will. Yeah, how could it not 209 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,320 be? Why would it not work out that exact way that he just because 210 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,639 he wanted it to be that way, that of course it will go there. 211 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:39,200 I mean, it's it's such a problematic thing that the egocentrism of youth, 212 00:15:39,919 --> 00:15:43,120 and he seems like he's a little bit too old agree to still be 213 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:54,080 in that degree of egocentrism. Usually people start to move through that by that 214 00:15:54,120 --> 00:16:00,000 phase of we can assume he's somewhere around twenty seven twenty eight. Yeah, 215 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,480 I would definitely assume that much. Right about then is usually when that about 216 00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:07,679 stops development, because I mean, part of it is because at about twenty 217 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:15,360 seven is when men finally mature to adults. Finally when between twenty seven and 218 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:21,600 thirty, well, and you know, never o'clock, he mean, I 219 00:16:21,679 --> 00:16:23,679 get it, you know, depends on I know what you mean, Like 220 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:30,159 This is definitely like college age behavior right or shortly after, but it's it's 221 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,360 happening too late, after the point in time where most people start getting the 222 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,519 when friends are like, Hey, we're going out to the bar, and 223 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:41,440 you may still go sometimes, but there's other days and you go like, 224 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:48,759 ah, nah, man, I'm gonna like go to bed at nine actually, 225 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,600 and you couldn't be me, but I know what you mean. What's 226 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:53,879 at the age when people start like, there's a decent mount of your friend 227 00:16:53,879 --> 00:16:59,159 group that's getting married or at least getting really serious, and so it becomes 228 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,200 more normal. We'll just more mature to have like forth right conversations about what 229 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,279 you're looking for and what you want and how efforts into your life. Well, 230 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:17,799 and more so the cognitive ability to abandon that egocentrism. Egocentrism of like 231 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:26,200 understanding what we're capable of and not embracing the changes that happen in our bodies, 232 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,880 in embracing that, Hey, you're tired now, like, hey, 233 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:36,359 your back hurts because you sneezed and it's not getting better. You can't wrestle 234 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:40,279 with Jimmy anymore. And sometimes I talk with clients about this because I see 235 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:45,039 people across all age spans and go like you have crossed the age. And 236 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,000 it's right about twenty seven, twenty eight when your body starts to change, 237 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,640 and then again at thirty and then at thirty five and then at forty when 238 00:17:52,400 --> 00:18:00,039 all of these things, all of these ideas of youthful exuberance and invincibility that 239 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,119 he start to fade. Tom has not let those go. So let's take 240 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:10,519 a break and we'll be right back. And I also think, based on 241 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:14,160 what you're saying, Ben, is that Tom, for his age, also 242 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:18,640 has really poor emotion regulation. I think it's mostly played for laughs in the 243 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,839 movie, but when you really think about it, Like the way this movie 244 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:27,680 opens, he is smashing plates, like violently smashing plates in this weird like 245 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:34,519 robody way because a girl that never committed to being his girlfriend said we are 246 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:40,519 friends and he is. They needed to call his like ten year old sister 247 00:18:41,319 --> 00:18:45,240 to buy him middle of the night to calm him down. Like that's who 248 00:18:45,319 --> 00:18:51,519 we're dealing with here, someone who is that quickly thrown off his axis by 249 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,119 this situation. I mean, he certainly has poor emotional regulation. There's no 250 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,559 argument out that. I think this is why I don't like time jump movies. 251 00:19:02,319 --> 00:19:03,640 You just you famously deny Yes, I do. I do not. 252 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,640 It's just that's a thing. I don't like time jump movies. I know 253 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,839 the director told the story in the order he wanted to, and that's fine 254 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:18,519 for a reason. But the colors our perception of him maybe in the way 255 00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:22,960 he wanted this too, But we see him in a point where he's in 256 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:30,359 active dissociation and despair from just getting dumped when most people are in pretty poor 257 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,480 shape. Yes, but I don't know. The smashing. It's such a 258 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:41,160 violent, destructive behavior that's so unnecessary. I mean, it's something it's not 259 00:19:41,559 --> 00:19:44,240 great decision making. I'm not arguing it is. It's okay for people to 260 00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:48,200 just break plates. Right. Then he starts bombing at work, to the 261 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,359 point that he gets transferred to a different department. He's very lucky that he 262 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,400 is a boss. That's that's that understanding. He's writing fuck you horror in 263 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,720 greeting cards like that is fiable. Oh yeah, and so yeah, you'll 264 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:04,160 lose your job for that. There's no yeah, So that's smell adaptive behavior. 265 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,839 And he does that, and then he has a big out burst at 266 00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:12,279 a meeting before he quits, you know, like he's not someone who is 267 00:20:12,319 --> 00:20:19,400 handling disappointment and heartbreak well, like I hear you in that when we get 268 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:25,599 are heartbroken, whether intentionally or unintentionally, you know, we're not robots, 269 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,759 Like we're gonna be sad. We're gonna maybe look a little worse, act 270 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:30,599 a little sad, you know what I mean. We're gonna maybe be a 271 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:33,640 little out of character. But the way he's operating as if the only thing 272 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,240 holding him literally acting like a person in a society right, like acting by 273 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:44,759 social norms is being appeased romantically, and then as soon as he doesn't have 274 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,359 that, he's acting like in a way that could get him committed, you 275 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:55,240 know, like in the fact that he is seems unsafe, like in the 276 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:59,000 way that he's behaving in public, and then also in his home like act 277 00:20:59,079 --> 00:21:00,400 like I don't know. The smash and plates thing to me is so I 278 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,079 think it is just like plate as a joke in the movie. Ye if 279 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:08,160 that was really happening, like that would be intense to witness, Like if 280 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,480 I was in a home with a friend, yeah, and they started smashing 281 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,720 all the plates we owned against the counter and didn't stop until I called the 282 00:21:15,759 --> 00:21:19,480 Little Sister. I mean, you know, at that point it might be 283 00:21:19,599 --> 00:21:25,480 a um, buddy, do we do we need to go to the hospital. 284 00:21:25,599 --> 00:21:30,599 Yeah, conversation. Yeah yeah. No. That's if people can't regulate 285 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:37,559 their emotions, considering whether they are too dissociated to be okay is fair. 286 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:45,839 I think it's really poignant to look at Tom and realize how much projection and 287 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:52,920 dissociation he's living in. Always yes, and that's probably why he's so disregulated 288 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:59,119 in this moment, because he's going through active grief and what we'll set up 289 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:06,400 adjustment disorder, which does come with conduct as a specifier, right, like 290 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,799 when you see a disturbance of emotions or conduct after a big change, this 291 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:18,000 is what it looks like. This is what can happen. People can do 292 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:26,279 things that are bizarre, absurd, self destructive, outwardly destructive and well Tom, 293 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:32,400 check check check yes on that one. And it's I think why I 294 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,200 don't like time jump movies as a mental health professional is when you're assessing someone 295 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,480 for mental health, you're looking at behaviors over a time frame, and in 296 00:22:42,559 --> 00:22:48,680 this one it gets confusing because nicely they do put a number of days on 297 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,519 there, so you at least get to kind of see what point in the 298 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:55,640 storyline Eache vignette is happening. But when your assessment brain is running, you're 299 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,559 looking at these and going okay, but it sees to the Stiga laid the 300 00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:00,039 whole time, how is it? But now you perceive him as a little 301 00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:04,319 disregulated, and then yeah, it can color your perception in an unfair way. 302 00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:10,720 Yeah, maybe, I don't know. I don't think you're I don't 303 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,559 think that's wrong, especially in this film. I mean, we definitely see 304 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:18,039 him in different, completely different places based on the time jump that they do, 305 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,279 So I don't think you're wrong about that. But I feel like he 306 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:26,680 presents as someone who's depressed. I feel like he presents a someone who is 307 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:33,920 depressed before the stuff with Summer even happened. Definitely, And I think a 308 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,960 part of the way that depression can come out, or being depressed can come 309 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:45,119 out, is by being emotionally disregulated. Is can be by more irritation, 310 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:49,680 being frustrated. I just feel like he in some ways he's really showing all 311 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:55,359 of those different parts of himself as well, because I think he is depressed. 312 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:57,839 He doesn't like his job, he stays in a job that he doesn't 313 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,839 like, and again this time sure, and also what I can give them 314 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,519 too is like being in your twenties also gonna be a time where people are 315 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:10,559 having like quote unquote quarter life crisises, where they're trying to figure out, 316 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,480 like, what does my future want to look like? What does that involve? 317 00:24:14,839 --> 00:24:17,240 Does that? What is my career? What do I want it in 318 00:24:17,279 --> 00:24:19,759 life? My goals? All that stuff, And so to be slightly meandering 319 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,960 at his age isn't wildly inappropriate? Yeah or uncommon? Yeah? Yeah, 320 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,039 what I mean, Yeah, it's not wildly uncommon. I think where Tom 321 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:34,519 like we've kind of how we're framing this whole conversation is I think Tom does 322 00:24:34,559 --> 00:24:40,599 Also the thing that people do where they assume like something outside of them will 323 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,640 be the thing that will make it all line up. We see that a 324 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,880 lot more. This more in the stereotype of midlife crisises. If I just 325 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,480 get a sports car, if I just get a hot young wife, if 326 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,799 I just get a ear piercing or like a two pay, or if I 327 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,039 start doing this or that or the other, I'll fit Texas, yeah, 328 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,880 or California. If I move anywhere, yeah, anywhere away from here, 329 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:04,920 Yeah, So when we're in this state of being where we're kind of meandering 330 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:11,599 internally or in our lives, we do it isn't uncommon to look outward for 331 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,920 the answer, right, And so Tom is doing that about romance. He's 332 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,559 not taking any ownership of his career, any ownership of his interests in those 333 00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:23,880 ways, but he is seeking out through this avenue. And it doesn't really 334 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,519 matter who Summer is, you know, like you were saying, Hannah, 335 00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:32,799 it really just matters how much she fits in to what he already likes to 336 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,039 rescue him, to rescue him. And then he starts to depend on that 337 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,400 so much that when she does pull away, he can't handle it. He 338 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:47,960 freaks out because during their relationship he hasn't established his own center. And I 339 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,839 think that's what we see towards the end of the movie when he finally realizes 340 00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:56,000 she had to get fucking engaged for him to realize this, that she isn't 341 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,160 the answer for him. Then he does finally start figuring out who he is, 342 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:03,160 you know, getting back into architecture, getting back into drawing, you 343 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,839 know, starting to pursue his interests and figure out who he is and what 344 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,920 he wants taking ownership of himself that he starts to beaking of centered, and 345 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,400 then the movie rewards him with another girl at the end, unfortunately, or 346 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,880 punishes the audience by showing us that he's learned nothing. Yeah. Yeah, 347 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,559 and he's just going to do the exact same fucking thing with this woman. 348 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,400 So, Hannah, tell me why you think he's depressed. I think that 349 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,839 Tom is depressed based on the fact that he doesn't often do things that he 350 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:34,759 wants to do, doesn't know what he likes, works at a job that 351 00:26:34,839 --> 00:26:41,119 he doesn't like, seemingly is ready to make any kind of negative comment or 352 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:47,039 decision about someone without knowing anything about them, I think, and again, 353 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,440 that's the misogyny in the film, but it also is an easy out. 354 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,240 That's an easy cop out. I'm not going to find out. I'm just 355 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:59,000 gonna bitch and moan and complain about everything. Thanks with the worst case scenario, 356 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,920 Yeah, who brings something up? Yeah? Absolutely So. I feel 357 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,440 like those are some of the ways that I see him, which should be 358 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,400 a negative worldview, right, yeah, exactly, so a negative worldview, 359 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,000 and he doesn't seem to. He seems to be pulled out a lot by 360 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:21,640 his friends, and I don't know how much he's actually I'm not going to 361 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,160 say engaging in their friendship, because I think he's probably engaging in their friendships, 362 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:29,160 but how much he's actively like trying to go out and do things with 363 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,559 them, spending time with his friends. Like you see his best friends show 364 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,480 up a lot, but you don't see Tom go to his friend's house at 365 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,759 all. You don't see him spending time with him and his partner. You 366 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:42,640 don't see And again, this could all just be shit that we don't see 367 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:47,839 in the film, but it really just feels like he is. He is 368 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,519 clinically depressed, and when he finds someone that makes him not hate the world 369 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:55,920 so much because they light up his life a little bit, it's very easy 370 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,440 for him to project all of his thoughts and feelings onto her, also because 371 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,680 he doesn't have a good sense of himself, because I don't know that he 372 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:07,759 might be too depressed to be able to do that. I mean, I 373 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:10,680 think you make a point like when they're going to do the karaoke, he 374 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,480 doesn't want to go. It doesn't want to go, doesn't want to go 375 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:15,079 until they say Summer is going to be there, So I do hear what 376 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,559 you're saying, and that is two close friends do seem to try to get 377 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,279 him out, yeah, in the world and kind of get him hopeful and 378 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240 engaged, and they try to encourage him a lot. I mean, they 379 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:27,920 also are part of the misogyny we see a lot in the movie, but 380 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:33,599 that's could also be two thousand and nine. Yeah, nonsense, But I 381 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,519 think they are trying to encourage him, and they are trying to get him 382 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:40,759 to their credit, they are trying to get him to talk to Summer. 383 00:28:41,359 --> 00:28:42,200 Yeah. Well, the other thing I just thought of, too, is 384 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,599 that he's also not drawing, so he's actively doing something that he used to 385 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:48,880 do their broad and pleasure he's no longer doing. Yeah, it does seem 386 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,359 like he's given up in a lot of ways on things. Yeah, so 387 00:28:52,599 --> 00:28:59,240 I just you know, I think one of the things that are our audience 388 00:28:59,279 --> 00:29:02,160 likes from us, but those that are just learning to get to the levels 389 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:03,920 when we talk, well, oh yep, look how obvious it is he's 390 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,079 depressed. It it's helpful to hear where your thoughts are coming from, because 391 00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:12,200 you're a smart colndician and you have good thoughts. So yeah, you know, 392 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,279 we should get those out in the light. Well. Also to define 393 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,759 something you said earlier too, is this is a little this is a little 394 00:29:18,759 --> 00:29:22,680 psychoed corner? Is that conduct disorder? When you say conduct to Jessa, 395 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,799 with conduct, how we define conduct is acting out behaviors. So any sort 396 00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:33,119 of like aggressive behaviors you see, or acting out or acting against social norms, 397 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,720 that's more of like conduct disturbance. Yeah, So when we say Jusa 398 00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:44,200 with conduct for a meaning behavioral stuff like your behavior is abnormal, right, 399 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,400 right? If you have a disturbance of conduct, you're operating outside of the 400 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:53,319 normal construct of societal rules. So I think a couple of things that I 401 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:56,079 also noticed with this movie, and I'm interested what you guys think too, 402 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,359 is I think this movie also I don't know if it's done this on purpose 403 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,440 or this is just that I'm viewing this from a twenty twenty three lens on 404 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:07,000 a movie from two thousand and nine. Is how I think A lot of 405 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:11,359 why he doesn't believe her is that because she's a woman, and she's saying 406 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,599 I don't want to be in a relationship. And in the very beginning of 407 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,440 the movie, when she's telling his friend that works with him that I just 408 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:21,440 want to be casual, like I don't want to be hooked into relationship. 409 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,000 He goes, you're a dude. This girl's a dude. Do you know 410 00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:27,000 that you're a dude? And I think that is a part of this narrative, 411 00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:32,720 which is that he I think I wonder how much how different the story 412 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:36,599 would be if the roles were reversed gender wise, because I think there is 413 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,759 a stereotype if we're going to go at head or normative gender roles. I 414 00:30:40,799 --> 00:30:45,000 think it's a stereotype that men want casual and women want relationships. So I 415 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,799 think a part of this story, which is interesting and why I think he 416 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:52,119 really doesn't believe her, is that she's a woman and he's a man, 417 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,240 and women always want to be in a relationships, they just don't know it 418 00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:57,079 yet. Yep. And so I think he has this idea. Yeah, 419 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:00,920 And so I think he has this idea that if I just keep performing as 420 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,559 a boyfriend, eventually she'll like me so much and she'll tell me so many 421 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:10,759 of her secrets and we'll do so many milestone things together that she I'll wear 422 00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:15,279 her down. Basically, I'll smuggle my way into her life, which is 423 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:19,079 a common, unfortunately normalized approach, yes, from men to women, which 424 00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:23,039 is that if you can wear a girl down, and both ways are always 425 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,200 well, I think it's done a bit differently. I think there's also I 426 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:30,079 think where we more commonly see it, which by you by bringing up Ben 427 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:36,480 is that I think also we've sold girls and women a narrative unfortunately that if 428 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,599 you act like a girlfriend enough, a guy will finally fall in love with 429 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,759 you. So I think it's a toxic narrative going both ways. Yeah, 430 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,519 I don't see how that's different. It might be done differently, sure, 431 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,240 accept that argument, but it's it's the same thing. If you're around enough 432 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,799 that the person will wear them down the boundary they clearly set on you and 433 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,319 let you know right up front of exactly where they were at and what they're 434 00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:00,400 looking for, and that's somehow, because you're awesome enough, it'll be different. 435 00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:04,839 I think the only thing that still feels gendered for me is I think 436 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,359 that, like they said when they said that she's the dude thing, I 437 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,160 do think it's hard people still find it hard to believe when women truly say 438 00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:15,359 I want to be casual. Yeah, I want to be you know, 439 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,079 clearly defined, Like there's still like no believing them because even my personal experience 440 00:32:20,119 --> 00:32:22,720 when I'm on dating apps, which I'm not on right now, God bless 441 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:29,519 knock on wood, is that when I'm straightforward with men and I'm like, 442 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:31,480 I only want this and if it's casual or not, they have a hard 443 00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:37,000 time believing that too. Yeah, And so I think anecdotally, and I 444 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:38,880 and when I hear from friends as well, is I think it is hard 445 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:45,440 to accept when women don't just what the relationship? You don't want a boyfriend? 446 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:50,279 What? I don't all women want boyfriends and husbands. And so I 447 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,160 think that feels the version of the story we're seeing when it's from this angle. 448 00:32:53,279 --> 00:32:55,640 Oh yeah, No, I don't think. I don't think the gendered 449 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,359 perception is in any way incorrect. I just that I don't see how the 450 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,720 thing is different with the wearing people down. Yeah, I think it's done 451 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,599 in slightly different ways. Yeah, but I hear what you're saying, like, 452 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,039 I don't think. I don't think you're you're incorrect, Like, yeah, 453 00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:16,200 No, there's definitely there's definitely a perception out there of women not being 454 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:22,039 believed when they're like I am out right telling you I do not want something 455 00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:30,240 serious, yes, or even just like anything right, Like you don't want 456 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:34,279 kids, and that's a big topic. Yeah, Like indent culture is like 457 00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:36,720 not believing women when they say they don't want to have kids. Yeah, 458 00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:40,319 yeah, and ascribing that to bitterness or you're lying to yourself, or you're 459 00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:43,960 going to be long you just don't get it, or you're just not in 460 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,039 love right now, or change your mind, change your mind eventually, or 461 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:51,400 you only have so much time, so we'll sure you'll change your mind by 462 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,960 that time. And so I think it's it's hard to believe in this story. 463 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,160 But then how we're generalizing out when women don't fit or female presenting people 464 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:06,559 don't fit that tidy box of like wife and mother. Yeah, and so 465 00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:09,400 then we don't they aren't believed, And then situation like this occur where it 466 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,039 just continues to make It creates a loophole for Tom to keep falling into, 467 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,320 which is that, yeah, but she'll want a boyfriend. Why would't you 468 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,480 want a boyfriend? Like that's kind of the energy. Or if they love 469 00:34:22,519 --> 00:34:29,559 me enough, they'll become religious. Oh yeah, that's the thing, they'll 470 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:32,519 go to church with me. I want to talk about things that have happened 471 00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:37,960 to some people in this personal experience realm of yeah, thinking you can date 472 00:34:38,039 --> 00:34:46,920 someone that is of a different worldview on that topic, and I think difficult. 473 00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:50,920 Yeah, not impossible, but difficult. But if you have any ideas 474 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,760 other than acceptance, it will not be possible. If you have an idea, 475 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:59,599 you'll convert them later. You are paddling up shit creek if you have 476 00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:01,760 an It's okay that I believe one thing and they believe another, and I 477 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,800 am truly okay with it, and I'm okay with our children being of a 478 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,000 household that believes different things. And you really mean it, and you really 479 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:13,920 aren't having a secret plan that you're going to convert them to your religion or 480 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,119 your your worldview that we should have kids, or we shouldn't, or we 481 00:35:17,159 --> 00:35:21,440 should be serious, we shouldn't whatever it is like. If you are truly 482 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,559 meeting that person where they're at as they are, it can work. If 483 00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:30,360 you are not, you get this movie well. Also, I'm sure you 484 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,119 can speak more to this, Hannah. As like a marriage and family therapist 485 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,760 is there so many hard topics that couples avoid entirely because they don't want to 486 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,679 actually deal with the reality of it, which is that it might not work 487 00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:47,039 out. Oh oh, can we do rapid fire with this? Mean so 488 00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:51,880 many let's go, let's go ready, Let's let's go see if we can 489 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,679 help drive his plant home. I want to move to California someday. Yeah, 490 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,480 house has one. Well, it's like I want to have kids. 491 00:36:02,679 --> 00:36:06,199 I'm just trying to. I feel like there's so many different things that they 492 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:08,960 don't talk about. So, okay, um, we threw a lot at 493 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:15,360 you. Yeah, yeah, I have money stuff that I haven't told you 494 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:22,639 about, debt, I have a fetish m or just even like sexual preferences 495 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:28,239 or just se or fantasies. Yeah, or talking or let's just you know 496 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,559 what, let's just fucking say sex. I can't get people to say sex 497 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:39,159 and look me in the eye and a Sasha. Okay, So sex people 498 00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:44,239 don't talk about it. They avoid it at all costs because they're worried about 499 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,320 what it means. They're worried about what it doesn't mean, and they they're 500 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:52,679 not interested in finding out the answer to that. And yeah, so I 501 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:54,840 would say that's definitely one of them. Sex is a Sex is a big 502 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,320 one. Children is a big one. Money is an even bigger one. 503 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,280 Money's got all different kinds of shit connected to it, and it's you know, 504 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,480 one of those things that I when I talk to people, when I 505 00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:09,760 do these sessions with couples, that we talk about, what are some of 506 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:14,199 the things I go along with? What are some of the reasons why people 507 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:16,840 get divorced? These are the some of the reasons. Let's figure this out. 508 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,440 Because if you can't figure this out, I don't know what to tell 509 00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:24,880 you. Right Like, you can't even talk about sex. We gotta well, 510 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,880 there's a whole other things that's going to happen. We have to be 511 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,239 able to talk about these things in a way that is and even like and 512 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,760 even if we even if we just use tom and Summer talking about literally anything. 513 00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:42,519 He is not listening to her. He is not listening to her about 514 00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:46,559 any fucking thing that she says, let alone? What let alone? Does 515 00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:51,760 he believe her when she says, I don't want anything serious. I don't 516 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,119 I just want something casual. I can't this just be what it is? 517 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,400 Are you sure you're okay with this? I don't know how much more clear? 518 00:37:58,599 --> 00:38:02,199 She has very good, clear communication with him. She's super clear, 519 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,719 She's very clear, and he is an asshole. I think he's just a 520 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,280 stuck in his head because I think why a lot of people tend to fall 521 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:17,159 into situation ships sure is because neither of them are saying anything like they're just 522 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:23,320 kind of falling into something, and both both parties are either too scared or 523 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:28,840 unwilling in some regard to define the relationship, either because they wanted to keep 524 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,920 it casual and they don't want to rock the boat, or they want it 525 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,679 to be more serious they don't want to rock the boat typically rock the boat 526 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,719 territory in different directions. And so what makes Tom even more even worse than 527 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,199 this movie, like you're saying, Hannah, is that this is actually one 528 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:52,800 of the atypical situations where one party is being very clear from jump about about 529 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,800 what they're looking for. But this happens as well, you know, when 530 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,880 I work with people like like I said, Like if I had Tom and 531 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,920 Summer in my office and she repeated again, I don't want a boyfriend, 532 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,280 and then Tom, I don't know, starts getting into a different topic. 533 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,199 I would assume disc has right over it. I would stop. Yeah, 534 00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:13,639 I would say, what did you just hear Summer say yes, why can't 535 00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:15,159 you hear that, What does it feel for her hear say that? I 536 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,000 want you to say that out loud yourself, Like I would almost make him 537 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,079 repeat it verbatim, because I don't know if he could. I think he'd 538 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:23,880 be someone where I would say say that out loud and to be like, 539 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,960 I mean, she's just saying that, you know right now? Because and 540 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,559 I would say, no, stop, what exactly I need you to say? 541 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:36,360 Exactly what she said? One of my favorite communication tricks. Yes, 542 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,039 did you amagotherapy? Thank you? Yeah? Did you hear? Yeah? 543 00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:45,800 Verbatim, not editorializing, not through your perception filter? What literally? What 544 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,480 are the literal words that came out of the person's mouth in front of you. 545 00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,679 It's so fascinating when you see when people are stuck their perception filters and 546 00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:05,239 do not listen and editorialize what is being said. How little they hear what 547 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,000 the other person has actually told them. Yeah, because assumptions, assumptions. 548 00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:15,360 I talk about assumptions with couples all the time. You've already come in here, 549 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:17,280 You've already made up an entire story about how you think shit is going 550 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,800 to go, and that is not helpful to anybody. And I talk to 551 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,239 couples about making assumptions. How many assumptions are you making based on the way 552 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,880 that your wife is looking at you right now? Yeah, well, we're 553 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:35,000 making a lot of assumptions that you don't have, that you don't actually know 554 00:40:35,119 --> 00:40:37,199 the truth of. No matter how long you know someone, no matter how 555 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:42,920 long you love someone, you will never actually know what they're thinking. That's 556 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,239 not something that can happen. Mind reading is something. It's not something that 557 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,480 is that's not a thing. We have to be able to listen to each 558 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,599 other. We have to be able to set aside the assumptions based on whatever 559 00:40:54,679 --> 00:41:01,159 feeling we're having. And this is something. And in this situation, Tom 560 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:06,559 is all assumption and know anything else again, Ben, which well you said 561 00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:10,199 earlier. He creates an entire story, and Summer just happens to be the 562 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:15,559 girl that's there right he doesn't see her. Which I think those are like 563 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,199 when we mapped us out looking at how we talk about what are the signs 564 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,159 someone's in a situationship? These are the things you'd be looking for. If 565 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,480 I ask that person if you're in a relationship, what would they say? 566 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,199 That's a good question for if you're in a situation HiPE or not. Like 567 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:31,920 I was talking to a friend and I was like, if I walked up 568 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:36,440 to him that person and asked, right, what would they say about your 569 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,199 relationship? Right? If you can't say out loud, that's my girlfriend or 570 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:43,559 that's my boyfriend, and that's my partner or that's whatever. Yeah, right 571 00:41:43,639 --> 00:41:46,920 if you do not have a make it real simple if you use the phrase 572 00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:53,440 ever at any point we don't like labels, free yourself from the chains of 573 00:41:53,519 --> 00:41:59,599 that phrase, right or accept them yeah for exactly what they are, and 574 00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:04,440 then you both are in the same place where that's exactly and only what you 575 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,840 want, because I don't want to, you know, come across as we're 576 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:13,639 being judge on what types of relationships, there are lots of types of relationships 577 00:42:13,639 --> 00:42:17,840 that can work. Yes. However, we have also all spent great many 578 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:24,480 hours in therapy with people who do not check in with themselves or their other 579 00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:31,239 person of is this still working? Yeah, because the same page they caught 580 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:37,400 feelings yeah, and are hoping the other person will too. Because where I 581 00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:38,920 buck at that I know what you're saying, Ben, and that things won't 582 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:45,119 have to be in like these rigid gender like headonormative labels. What I mean 583 00:42:45,159 --> 00:42:46,280 by that when people say, because what I hear when people say we don't 584 00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,519 believe in labels is we are refusing to define our relationship, even if that 585 00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:54,760 means we are casual, we are friends with benefits, we are non exclusive. 586 00:42:55,039 --> 00:43:00,360 It's a dismissive term. It's a dismissive term. Yeah. And because 587 00:43:00,559 --> 00:43:04,639 even if like you don't believe in the terms boyfriend, girlfriend, partner, 588 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:10,519 whatever, you should still be able to succinctly define to someone else what you 589 00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:14,880 are to each other. Yes, you can't, babe. You're in a 590 00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,440 situation ship and you need to assess whether that feels good or not. Because 591 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,880 I think also the question I wish as friends would have asked, but I 592 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,639 understand why they didn't think to ask this is maybe they did in different ways. 593 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,920 But is this making you feel good? Yeah? You know what I 594 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,840 mean? Are you feeling good with the state of the state of this non 595 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,960 relationship? Is this what you want? And they kind of do. They 596 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,039 do check in with him at certain points, being like, what's going on, 597 00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:43,599 dude, and he does, which is rude. He like, he 598 00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:47,639 dismisses their authority as giving him feedback, right, because he doesn't want to 599 00:43:47,639 --> 00:43:50,280 hear it. He says, well, you've never been in a relationship and 600 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,360 you've been in one forever, so neither of you know what you're talking about, 601 00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:59,039 right, which is valid to do on perspective taking, but also maybe 602 00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:02,280 just maybe understand that that is only one truth. The other truth is that 603 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,280 they have eyes and they're observing their friend and how he's doing, and that 604 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,280 he clearly likes this girl a lot, and it is not okay and is 605 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:16,320 not okay with where it's at, and they know him well enough to know 606 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:21,679 that this is nothing new. You see, when something happens, I can't 607 00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:25,280 exactly remember what it is. And even his half sister or his little sister 608 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:30,639 even she says to him, Oh, brother, that's not good when he 609 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,559 I can't remember what he's talking about, though, dang it. It's probably, 610 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,360 I think, is when he can't label it. Well, it's also 611 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,000 is it when they're playing we together? Yeah? Yeah, she your girlfriend? 612 00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:44,079 And and she does make a guess two point where she was like, 613 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,280 she's just a pretty girl who has similar interest to you. That doesn't make 614 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,760 her your soul. May Bro's exactly, she points out very quickly, like 615 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,440 how he's projecting onto her yep, and he's like, no, he's just 616 00:44:53,519 --> 00:45:00,199 dismissing everybody, everybody in his life that is offering contracounter information or poking at 617 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:05,960 it. He is writing them off because he's in this bubble that he can't 618 00:45:06,039 --> 00:45:09,360 let burst. And where it really does him a disservice, like we've talked 619 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:14,239 about, is when and when Summer finally finally sits him down at that diner 620 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,440 and it's like this is not working for me. For me, yeah, 621 00:45:17,559 --> 00:45:22,559 and this is not working period. He flips the fuck out and he leaves. 622 00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:25,920 And I think, what's what's so hard for me to even talk about 623 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,280 like Summer's side of it is because we don't really see her perspective almost at 624 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:36,280 all in this movie. It's totally from Tom's viewpoint, and so I'm making 625 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,880 leaps here by saying this part. But I think for her, you can 626 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:45,320 see towards the end of their relationship, the distress she's feeling because she has 627 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:51,639 defined this relationship over and over for him for her, and she does view 628 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,559 him as a close friend because of all the time they spent together and how 629 00:45:55,599 --> 00:46:00,239 sad she gets when she realizes like this is going badly, you know, 630 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,079 when she cries at the graduate when she's pulling away from him, when she 631 00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:06,360 finally has that talk and she's like, but you're my best friend and he's 632 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,679 basically like, fuck you. Is that for her? She's made this deep 633 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:15,199 release, She's had this deep friendship relationship situationship with him, and it's not 634 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:22,519 salvageable because he hasn't listened to her the whole time. So I am curious 635 00:46:22,519 --> 00:46:28,440 from her perspective how this has felt for her, this slow evolution into what 636 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,760 they end up being by the end, right, So bringing it into a 637 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:38,960 point here, if you're feel yourself in a situation you cannot define, You 638 00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:46,000 do not have labels for you feel yourself wondering or having questions or other people 639 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,440 have questions about what the rules of your relationship are, and that makes you 640 00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:57,800 uncomfortable, defensive, argumentative, or in any other way dissociative to the point 641 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,840 that you push away reality that everything will just work out and it's fine, 642 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:06,239 and she or he or whoever is the big love, but there's no other 643 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,679 evidence that supports it, and you get anxious about trying to create it. 644 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,599 You're probably in a situation ship and it's going to blow up and we see 645 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:17,519 that in this movie when he finally gets in that fight at that bar and 646 00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:21,599 he says, we're a couple, goddamn it. And I get to say 647 00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:25,400 in this which is not all that works, can't decide you're a couple you 648 00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:30,960 both is that's where this always is going to lead, is some form of 649 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:35,800 it's just going to have. It's the volving point, and for them that 650 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,719 was it. Unfortunately, I think where she misfires and her kind of part 651 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,000 in the situationship. But she goes over to his house and misleads him, 652 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,239 I think in that moment by visiting him after the fight in the punching when 653 00:47:49,599 --> 00:47:52,760 but I will say, to her credit, he still then again says I 654 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,760 want this and this, and she says I can't give you that, and 655 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,480 I think he is still last I'm on his ass about his lack of agency. 656 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:01,960 Is that at that point and many points, but at that point he 657 00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:07,000 definitely should have said, well then I can't keep doing this, and he 658 00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:13,400 keeps inviting her in because of that idea that I need her so badly to 659 00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,360 fix some part of me that I'll take what I can get and then maybe 660 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:21,199 it'll just change. One days continues to be this lack of agency on his 661 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,480 part, which you know, leads us to that how did you get into 662 00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:31,000 this or is it perpetuating? And what does it look like? If you 663 00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:37,440 find yourself in any situation where you are acting out because you cannot deal with 664 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,480 the answers you've been getting, you might be in a situation ship. Yes, 665 00:48:40,599 --> 00:48:45,159 if you have reached a point where you are punching random dudes who can 666 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,519 probably wipe the flour with you because you weigh one hundred and thirty eight pounds 667 00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:52,639 as a grown man, you're probably in a situation ship. If you are 668 00:48:53,519 --> 00:49:00,599 built like you could play Robin. Oh, here we go. I should 669 00:49:00,599 --> 00:49:04,599 have been expecting and you decide that you're going to but you haven't done the 670 00:49:04,599 --> 00:49:07,400 training to be Robin, and you enter a fight with a dude who is 671 00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:13,559 bigger than you. You are probably in a situation ship. If you feel 672 00:49:13,559 --> 00:49:19,639 the need to say I am able to tell you exactly what this relationship is 673 00:49:19,639 --> 00:49:22,400 because I get a choice in it, and the other person has clearly told 674 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,079 you that's not what they want. But you think because you're right that you 675 00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:30,480 win. Probably in a situation ship. Yeah, So let's take a break 676 00:49:30,639 --> 00:49:37,360 here and we'll move into our next topic here, all right. So, 677 00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:40,519 I think something that comes up a lot for me in the work that I 678 00:49:40,599 --> 00:49:44,239 do, and this has kind of looped in with like sort of the downsides 679 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:51,199 of situation ships is that they create a situation where you are more connected to 680 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,639 the potential or the fantasy than what's literally in front of you, so that 681 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:58,920 when they don't work out, which they inevitably won't, you're not just like 682 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,559 you were saying earlier, Bet, You're not just grieving what actually happened. 683 00:50:02,079 --> 00:50:07,079 You're grieving the potential. You're grieving the fantasy. It takes on this huge, 684 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,840 more meaningful thing for you than the thing that was actually in front of 685 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,239 you. I think what I find a lot in my current modern day dating 686 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,639 when I work on in therapy with people, is that I think with a 687 00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:22,639 apps, what I'm noticing is there's and you know, when I've fall into 688 00:50:22,679 --> 00:50:28,480 this myself as someone who's single, is that there's so much online chatting going 689 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,960 on before you even meet with somebody, and sometimes that can go on for 690 00:50:30,039 --> 00:50:34,519 long periods of time, and so by the time you get to the first 691 00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:40,360 date, there's all this unearned intimacy and people get hooked more into the idea 692 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:45,000 of somebody and the potential of them then actual person in front of them, 693 00:50:45,039 --> 00:50:47,840 which does multiples of things. One like I just mentioned, it makes you 694 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,679 more, it gives you more meaning to it, and therefore if it doesn't 695 00:50:52,679 --> 00:50:55,360 work out, you're upset about a lot of abstract ideas as much as you're 696 00:50:55,440 --> 00:51:00,280 upset about the literal thing. And then also it enables you, which we 697 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:06,760 see with Tom, to ignore red flags because you aren't actually assessing the person 698 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,639 in front of you. You're assessing the fantasy, which we've talked about at 699 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:15,400 length. And so I think where it really does a disservice is I think 700 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:20,760 it gets in the way of actually assessing if someone's even good for you. 701 00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:24,400 I wonder because we see most we see some are so specifically from his perspective 702 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:30,000 of the movie, we're not even really getting a objective view of her and 703 00:51:30,159 --> 00:51:34,280 what she's actually like and how she actually behaves. We're all just seeing him 704 00:51:34,519 --> 00:51:37,119 from his lens. And so I think where that happens in real life when 705 00:51:37,159 --> 00:51:43,920 I work with people is that they'll allow themselves to be mistreated in some fashion 706 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,159 by the person in front of them because they are not actually paying attention to 707 00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,480 is this person good for me? And I think this goes back to this 708 00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:54,599 idea that I want somebody is it you? Is it you? Is it 709 00:51:54,679 --> 00:51:59,519 you? It just needs to be a body that I project my stuff onto, 710 00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:01,800 and that stops us from actually saying, like, are you a good 711 00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:07,280 fit for me? Because what dating is supposed to be, ideally in my 712 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:12,519 opinion, as personally and professionally, is you are vetting people and seeing if 713 00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:15,880 you're not vetting, but like you're seeing if you fit in right as much 714 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,719 as you for them as they for you. Yeah, And when we go 715 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:24,960 and loaded like this, excuse our perception and excuse our ability to realize, 716 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,960 like is this person even good for me? Because I'm not actually seeing them? 717 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:31,920 And then when people come in my office and talk about it, they're 718 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:36,920 so upset every time that they're in something and they go on two dates and 719 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,360 they break up, it's like they just got their heart ripped out, you 720 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:44,280 know, It's like they had a breakup breakup. And so I think that's 721 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,960 where this lack of definition in a lot of ways can be really harmful to 722 00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:54,119 people, is that you it's you're getting your heart wrapped up in something that 723 00:52:54,480 --> 00:53:01,400 hasn't earned your heart yet, and that's why you have to be hopefully grounded 724 00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:05,559 when you get into dating. But not everybody is. Most people probably aren't, 725 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:12,400 and you have to have more eyes open and be mindful of your vulnerabilities. 726 00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:14,880 You know, I really want to be in a relationship. I really 727 00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:16,599 feel lonely. I do feel sad, and I feel like I'm lacking meaning 728 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:21,599 because all that's going to come into when you start dating, and it's going 729 00:53:21,599 --> 00:53:23,960 to color your ability to actually be like is this a good guy? Because 730 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:29,360 I think the question that Summer's asking when they're dating and he's not asking, 731 00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:32,039 is are we a good fit? Because what Summer's I think noting the whole 732 00:53:32,079 --> 00:53:35,480 time and she says that at the end when she says the guy that she's 733 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,880 not married to, I felt that whatever I was missing with you brutal line, 734 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:45,280 brutal line, but the truth. I applauded that that's the only part 735 00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:50,320 of the movie, you know that I really was like, Okay, but 736 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,400 I think she's doing that where she I think the whole time she was dating 737 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:59,360 Tom casually is she was in her mind assessing like it's not enough yet, 738 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,320 He's not making enough boxes for me, we're not a good enough fit, 739 00:54:01,559 --> 00:54:06,599 right, So she is I think more realistically assessing her in Tom, he's 740 00:54:06,679 --> 00:54:10,800 clearly not Yeah, and she's largely healthy, with her decisions done really but 741 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,360 largely. And I know the movie kind of opens with her cutting her hair, 742 00:54:15,159 --> 00:54:19,639 and I think that there is kind of this thesis statement about her that's 743 00:54:19,639 --> 00:54:24,320 delivered the very beginning of the movie that Summer is more detached from things in 744 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:29,960 her life, which they don't really explore more. No, it's like an 745 00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:32,000 interesting opening for her, and then they don't really go into it at all, 746 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,000 but it would be more interesting to see him. More of that plays 747 00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:37,840 in the movie. I think where it does a disservice or how I observe 748 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:43,519 it is that it's setting up this story that Summer is she's detached and she 749 00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:46,400 just needs somebody to pull her in and make her will even love. Oh. 750 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,559 I didn't get that at all, and totally different when I think the 751 00:54:50,599 --> 00:54:54,599 reality of it is is that she does doesn't get wrapped up. She's not 752 00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:59,440 romantic like he is. I don't know what did you think then? I 753 00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:04,639 thought something completely different, that they were displaying her as completely able to be 754 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,679 grounded and healthy, that as much as I love my long, dark hair, 755 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:13,960 I have no problem cutting it because I know that if it's not making 756 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,400 me happy in its current state, I can cut it out and it will 757 00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:22,599 regrow. And I don't read it to be anxious about it, because my 758 00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:27,880 hair will regrow, and if it's making me more happy this way, I 759 00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,039 have no problem doing that. And that's exactly how she broke up with him. 760 00:55:31,039 --> 00:55:38,000 Now, was that a little detached an unkind to fail to recognize that 761 00:55:38,079 --> 00:55:42,880 even though it wasn't working for you, it was for him. And the 762 00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,960 way you're cutting it off might provoke a reaction that he might take it poorly. 763 00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,480 That argument, and that side of what you're talking about, where she's 764 00:55:51,519 --> 00:55:54,880 a little more detached and missing it, you know you're inviting some trouble if 765 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,079 you break someone's heart like that, just like no warning, just all of 766 00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:00,840 a sudden, Hey, I'm sorry, let's do this in public, but 767 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:06,760 this isn't working for me by let's be friends. No no, no, 768 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,599 no. Is she allowed to do that? Of course? Should she do 769 00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:13,719 that for her own sake and health? It's not her, of course, 770 00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:19,239 but that quick not a good plan. But recognizing I think the way that 771 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:22,239 they were portraying her is like she knows what she wants and she has no 772 00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:28,400 problem pursuing it from her own angle first, which wasn't was presented kind of 773 00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,840 NEUTRALI I thought, well, I interpreted, I mean, this is narrative 774 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,039 art, right, We're all going to interpret it differently. I'm not saying 775 00:56:34,039 --> 00:56:35,960 you're right, no, wrong, I discussed something differently. Well, I 776 00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,840 think you took the healthy reading of it, and I was being cautious of 777 00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:44,159 the toxic reading of it. Not that I was necessarily thinking that was the 778 00:56:44,199 --> 00:56:45,960 correct way, but I was more like, Ooh, I hope this movie 779 00:56:46,039 --> 00:56:51,440 is not trying to sell this idea that she's like cold and distant and that 780 00:56:51,519 --> 00:56:54,079 she just hads to be thought out by Tom. I think that's his narrative. 781 00:56:54,559 --> 00:57:00,519 Sure, I won't contend that his behavior reinforces that throughout the film. 782 00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:05,559 Yeah, I don't think that's incorrect at all. I think that's yeah, 783 00:57:05,599 --> 00:57:07,719 And this whole thing is through Tom's perspective. So, I mean I just 784 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,559 was looking at it. It struck a different card of me of like, 785 00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:20,199 she's very confident and securely attached, and he is most definitely not like she 786 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,280 has She has a very secure attachment style that she's like more like, I 787 00:57:24,039 --> 00:57:25,920 know what I want for me, and I have faith that I'm going to 788 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:30,559 be okay and I'm going to be able to pursue my own okayness regardless of 789 00:57:30,559 --> 00:57:32,639 how other people feel about it. Because with women in their hair, maybe 790 00:57:32,639 --> 00:57:36,519 it's me having a lot of female clients, but women in the hair is 791 00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:39,280 a big thing. It is a big thing. I think hair is meaningful, 792 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,280 right right? I mean, if you all change your appearance, cut 793 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,480 your hair, how many people are going to comment on it, yeah, 794 00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,960 every one? And if they like it or don't like it, and if 795 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,000 you make a choice for you And how many women cut their hair and cry 796 00:57:57,639 --> 00:58:00,679 or cut their hair and are really excited about it. Men can keep the 797 00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:06,840 same haircut for fifty years and never change at one time. And I also 798 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,039 wondered too a summer Now I'm kind of going a little further with it, 799 00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:12,840 is that from the jump, from the very beginning of this movie, they're 800 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:19,079 talking about how appealing she is to the general male population, like the cute 801 00:58:19,159 --> 00:58:22,239 CI near, like the cut SI structure of you know, when she was 802 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:27,679 at the ice cream store, the sales went up. So I also wonder 803 00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:30,480 too, with her being a little more which I think is good for her, 804 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:35,199 a little bit more independent about things. I wonder how much she has 805 00:58:35,239 --> 00:58:40,400 been a person that has noticed how much men specifically want something from her without 806 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:45,679 ever really knowing her, that she is just a placeholder or a beautiful thing 807 00:58:45,039 --> 00:58:49,119 in men's eyes. I mean, I think there's a zero percent chance that 808 00:58:49,159 --> 00:58:52,719 she's not aware of that. Yeah, well, especially if you think about 809 00:58:52,719 --> 00:58:55,679 the way that she handles the guy at the bar, right, She's obvious, 810 00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:00,519 She's very calm, she knows she has a thing that she's says, 811 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,119 she says it to that guy, she waits for him to leave, Like 812 00:59:04,199 --> 00:59:07,559 that's somebody who is aware that they're going to be approached even though they don't 813 00:59:07,559 --> 00:59:12,960 want to be approached, And that men have, like historically early and often 814 00:59:13,559 --> 00:59:17,239 objectified her and intruded on her boundaries. You know, which is i'd be 815 00:59:17,559 --> 00:59:20,880 I want to know the more we talk about this more when our most summers, 816 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:25,159 I think, summer story in summer than I will ever be in tom 817 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:28,559 Yeah, and how she got well and how she got to a place where 818 00:59:28,559 --> 00:59:37,360 she is so grounded and assertive and communicative and sure of herself and is very 819 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:42,880 open and honest from often and oft and oft and oft and often so agitating. 820 00:59:43,599 --> 00:59:45,960 And do I think that she gets a little caught up in Tom? 821 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:49,159 Sure, you know, I think that she definitely likes him a lot. 822 00:59:49,440 --> 00:59:52,480 Sure, And I think she does, like going over his apartment things, 823 00:59:52,519 --> 00:59:57,360 Like I think she does do something sometimes maybe to appease him because he's a 824 00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,800 little fraught, as people have to do. Yeah, when people are fraught 825 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:07,280 or people are intruding on our boundaries, we subconsciously will start making decisions on 826 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,119 what's the thing that's most likely to keep me safe, and that may not 827 01:00:12,199 --> 01:00:15,480 be reflective of how you actually feel. And if you have to dissociate to 828 01:00:15,559 --> 01:00:22,199 create that fawn state, which is the part of our personality enables us to 829 01:00:22,199 --> 01:00:23,719 do that, Like a different degree. Is not saying that Summer was in 830 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,440 danger with Tom really, but I don't think so. But I think it 831 01:00:27,519 --> 01:00:30,320 was more like when she went over his apartment after the fist fight. I 832 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,960 think it's more like she really cares for Tom and it doesn't feel good that 833 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,280 they were in this bad spot, and so going over there. I would 834 01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,360 really curious her internal world around that decision, Like did she go over there 835 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:45,239 because she does like tom or did she go over there because he's a really 836 01:00:45,239 --> 01:00:49,480 good friend now and he's upset with her and that doesn't feel good. Yeah, 837 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:53,320 you know, yeah, but she's still at some point lowered her boundary. 838 01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:58,440 Yeah too, because she set the boundary on him that like, nope, 839 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,599 there will be like we're not a couple. Well, he's expecting that, 840 01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:07,199 like he did this big chivalrous thing, and he did the movie hero 841 01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:12,199 thing like he thought he was Han Solo. So it was not also on 842 01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,800 me that he had the one scene with Harrison Forward winking at Princess like yeah, 843 01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:22,880 I even I barfed at that and went really, yeah, really you're 844 01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:27,079 robbing You're not Han Solo. Well and even in that scene, like yeah, 845 01:01:27,119 --> 01:01:31,280 his whole confidence is wrapped up in her. And so I think a 846 01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,840 lot of times is as I mean, I can speak to this as a 847 01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,519 woman. You know, we are trained in some ways to protect men's socialize 848 01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:43,000 socialized, that's the way word. And so I think and sometimes she does 849 01:01:43,079 --> 01:01:45,440 make moves I think to protect his ego. Also she's trying to pull away 850 01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,320 from him. I think in a way that it is interesting how much he 851 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,199 doesn't read into the ego. I mean, we don't have to get all 852 01:01:51,239 --> 01:01:52,679 into this, because it's clearly like he wants it to still be good, 853 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:55,159 and that's why he doesn't read into the fact that she's pulling away, that 854 01:01:55,199 --> 01:01:58,599 she's not as happy, that she's trying to go home, she's crying during 855 01:01:58,639 --> 01:02:02,760 the graduate yeah's associating from or even well, and then yeah, exactly well, 856 01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:07,320 and then the parts where the first time he asks what they are and 857 01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:09,480 she says, well, I'm happy, aren't you happy? And he's like, 858 01:02:09,519 --> 01:02:12,119 yeah, I'm happy, and she's like, well, then what does 859 01:02:12,159 --> 01:02:15,440 it matter? Because but then later on, but then later on when they're 860 01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:20,679 at the table and there and she's ending things or trying to clarify in a 861 01:02:20,719 --> 01:02:23,639 more specific way, however we want to look at it, and he says, 862 01:02:23,679 --> 01:02:27,119 well, I'm happy. Are you happy? And she's like no, 863 01:02:28,199 --> 01:02:32,440 and he's confused. He's clearly very confused, and that definitely shows that he 864 01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:37,559 has no awareness of the changes that she's been engaging in during the time that 865 01:02:37,559 --> 01:02:40,199 they've been together, or that he's butt into this idea that even if you're 866 01:02:40,199 --> 01:02:45,519 not actually happy, you act happy. And now she's breaking the social contract 867 01:02:45,559 --> 01:02:50,119 by being honest and not playing along anymore, because when he's saying he's happy, 868 01:02:50,159 --> 01:02:52,920 he's never being totally honest. No, Oh, he's never happy. 869 01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:55,880 You can't already fun him. He's got no enjoyment and things that make him 870 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:01,000 feel like him. He's got low self esteem, he's got a lower energy. 871 01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:07,679 He has to dissociate away from his current state by getting drunk or being 872 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:09,760 in this pretend reality in order to start acting like the version of himself he 873 01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:15,559 wants to be. He won't activate until he does that because his own reality 874 01:03:15,639 --> 01:03:21,039 is so miserable that he can't until he escapes it. So I think Hannah's 875 01:03:21,079 --> 01:03:23,880 right that he's depressed, and we see that. But right once that social 876 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:29,239 contract is broken of like, she's not only like you were saying earlier, 877 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,559 she's not only shattering his present thing. She's taking him out of the place 878 01:03:32,599 --> 01:03:37,280 where he can be happy. And he can't tolerate that because the only thing 879 01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:43,159 that's gotten through that mental filter of his is that she's going to transport me 880 01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:49,840 into the West. Yeah, she is my ticket to Valinark. Yeah. 881 01:03:50,519 --> 01:03:54,239 And then because he's not being honest as we're talking about, not being touched 882 01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:58,639 in, as soon as she does that, he vilifies her Yep, she's 883 01:03:58,639 --> 01:04:01,800 a bitch. I hate everything about her. She is awful to him, 884 01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:08,119 and it's continuing that thing of like I. What he's really saying is I 885 01:04:08,559 --> 01:04:13,440 still cannot look inward at all. So she, as much as she was 886 01:04:13,480 --> 01:04:15,480 the answer to my happiness, she also has to be the reason for my 887 01:04:15,599 --> 01:04:18,840 unhappiness. And it's something to do with me. It's never anything to do 888 01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:24,599 with me. Yeah, it's this bitch now. Yeah. Right. And 889 01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:30,519 when we look at why these situation ships are harmful and why we're I'm just 890 01:04:30,639 --> 01:04:32,480 going to say the thing that we haven't said because we're trying to be kind, 891 01:04:32,599 --> 01:04:35,760 but I'm going to just do it. If you get into a situation 892 01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:42,519 ship and are not routinely checking in with yourself, if the situation ship is 893 01:04:42,559 --> 01:04:46,920 still working for you and the other person and making it safe for the other 894 01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,719 person to be able to process their emotions with you, you will end up 895 01:04:50,719 --> 01:04:57,519 in one of our offices. Perhaps, yes, But also ending up in 896 01:04:57,679 --> 01:05:02,760 my office also can mean that you are aware it's hard to have good communication 897 01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:08,320 with a partner, especially if you didn't have any good examples of that growing 898 01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,400 up, And so sometimes coming into my office is actually positive because then I 899 01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,280 can help you with that. Helping with communication is a very easy thing to 900 01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,320 do. It's very easy to be the third party in order to help support 901 01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:24,880 two people who clearly like something about each other and want to be able to 902 01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:30,639 communicate more clearly about life and about how they're feeling with each other. Yeah, 903 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:32,840 it doesn't have to be a bad thing, but you will be there. 904 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,400 Yeah. So it sounds like we're slipping a treatment territory. So before 905 01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:44,039 we do that, let's take another break. So treatment Tom Tom Tom to 906 01:05:44,199 --> 01:05:56,199 Tomtowntown to Downtowntown. In Trauma and Association Land, I have no evidence that 907 01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,440 Tom has sustained to a traumas is sustained a small t trauma. Breakups are 908 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:04,320 traumatic, period full stop. Breakups are traumatic. They are a loss. 909 01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,400 In Brittany, you did a really good job of detailing why. So I'm 910 01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:12,320 not going to repeat all of that. All I will highlight is that if 911 01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:17,400 you rewind this podcast and listen to Brittany describe someone going into all of those 912 01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:21,760 different realities in nerd language, you could look at that as someone going into 913 01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:30,119 the multiverse and understanding that we all have an internal TVA that tries to maintain 914 01:06:30,239 --> 01:06:35,360 the sacred timeline and will punish the timelines that start to deviate and the altars 915 01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:39,719 that develop or whatever I've got. They use the variants, right, variants, 916 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:44,719 the variants that start to exist in timelines outside of the sacred timeline, 917 01:06:44,719 --> 01:06:47,559 and we'll seek to extinguish them. And if you look at that metaphor combined 918 01:06:47,599 --> 01:06:53,159 with what Britney was saying, Tom is doing that, and that's what his 919 01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:56,360 sister points out to him, but he's not able to see it until the 920 01:06:56,559 --> 01:06:59,840 end of the movie, where it has pointed out to him that you are 921 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:05,599 remembering the nostalgic parts. You were only remembering the good parts. Your body 922 01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:12,440 pushed away the information that was incongruent with your sacred timeline of this being your 923 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:17,280 big love, and both you and her made a lot of concessions to reality 924 01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:21,440 and didn't adhere to what information was that well, she did a good job 925 01:07:21,719 --> 01:07:27,000 mostly of being firmly rooted in a reality and secure as we covered, but 926 01:07:27,599 --> 01:07:31,280 Tom did not. Tom did a piss poor job of checking in with himself 927 01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:36,119 and understanding, am I putting more on this person than is feasibly possible? 928 01:07:36,599 --> 01:07:41,920 And I think treatment with Tom for me would be about pretty much doing what 929 01:07:42,039 --> 01:07:45,519 his sister was doing with him, which is when we helping understand. When 930 01:07:45,559 --> 01:07:53,119 we start thinking about nostalgio, we respond to feelings that we choose to remember 931 01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:57,480 or are able to remember, not facts that represent the whole situation. It 932 01:07:57,719 --> 01:08:01,079 is why we have an entire general ration of people that still try to adhere 933 01:08:01,519 --> 01:08:08,119 to the fifties were a good time, back in the day, the good 934 01:08:08,159 --> 01:08:13,000 old days when everything was good in met and war hats and blah blah blah 935 01:08:13,039 --> 01:08:16,760 blah blah and hold on like you mean the times that were in black and 936 01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:23,039 white pictures where people had their own water fountains that were not in any way 937 01:08:23,079 --> 01:08:26,960 separate or they're not equal separate, but equal, my ass. Like, 938 01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,239 we're just gonna we had laws that you know, people would get beaten for, 939 01:08:31,079 --> 01:08:34,560 Yeah, sitting at the white side of a counter. Really, women 940 01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:40,439 couldn't have credit cards or their own checking accounts and stuff like that, Right, 941 01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:44,319 But those are the good old days, guys. Everything was fine exactly 942 01:08:45,039 --> 01:08:48,479 for those that are choosing to remember it in a way that represents their sacred 943 01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:55,239 timeline and keeps consistent with the narrative they want to live. Understanding that we 944 01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:59,199 are all equally capable of doing those things, even as we should on it 945 01:08:59,279 --> 01:09:02,239 now we all are capable of doing those things and being wearied that when you 946 01:09:03,239 --> 01:09:09,119 nostalgically remember something, or if you dissociate away from your present reality trying to 947 01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:14,920 forge a pathway for this person to fit all those boxes you want them to, 948 01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,960 you are missing. What's beautiful about love and relationships in the first place 949 01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:24,520 is that that path is forged together, much like the relationship Summer has with 950 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:29,600 her hair, that no matter what changes come, what sickness, what health, 951 01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:33,880 what richer, what poorer, what better, what worse comes, we 952 01:09:34,039 --> 01:09:39,359 will have a stable base from which to face it together, and we will 953 01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,840 know that we are always here together doing it, and that we are always 954 01:09:42,960 --> 01:09:48,000 enough. Tom misses all of that by assigning Summer this role in a play 955 01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:51,680 in his head and then just assuming she'll play the role. He's writing a 956 01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:59,640 self insert fan fiction correct Summer Summer X reader if anybody reads fan fiction, 957 01:10:00,119 --> 01:10:03,600 yep. With that means yep, that's what he's doing. Yeah, And 958 01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:11,279 for Tom, the treatment is too part is and this is the part that's 959 01:10:11,319 --> 01:10:16,319 hard, is that hard break out of brothers is what you're doing assessing him 960 01:10:16,359 --> 01:10:20,039 to see where he's at if he's ready for that is important because you can't 961 01:10:20,079 --> 01:10:24,920 just you know, like slap therapy is not a thing. You cannot get 962 01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:28,359 powder on your hand that says reality and slap someone in the face with it. 963 01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:30,119 That's not going to work well. The problem with his sister is that 964 01:10:30,199 --> 01:10:33,159 one she's his sister, sweet sweet, and write her off her feedback, 965 01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:36,479 and also because she's like eleven, and also because she's a woman, And 966 01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:41,359 then too, she's probably a little too irreverent and like cuts to the chase 967 01:10:41,439 --> 01:10:44,359 too much, like too hard for him to accept that because she's like, 968 01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:46,800 it's all going to go bad once you see her, what hooking up with 969 01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,359 some guy from the gym with Jesus Christ abs and Broadfit's face or something. 970 01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:57,000 Yeah, she did, But that's important because it's true. Yeah. I 971 01:10:57,119 --> 01:11:01,079 mean her being written that way is a mute us because it's a satire almost. 972 01:11:01,159 --> 01:11:05,039 But yeah, looking at she's the voice of reason in this story, 973 01:11:05,279 --> 01:11:08,479 right, that comes every once in a while and she's like what the fuck, 974 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:12,640 which is satirical because it's absurd. Yeah, but looking at looking at 975 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:18,560 him as a therapistem sinere going like we would have to concurrently both build up 976 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:27,079 a reality that is tolerable, that is meaningful, that helps you build a 977 01:11:27,239 --> 01:11:31,600 pathway to a life that you don't have to escape from. That's a great 978 01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:35,640 point that right there, Like it's like building a life that you don't need 979 01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:41,239 to ask from, which is what he starts doing when he gets back on 980 01:11:41,399 --> 01:11:45,760 track of like, Okay, I'm going to deal with the fact that I'm 981 01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:47,199 going to get a lot of nose, but i want to be an architect, 982 01:11:47,279 --> 01:11:51,399 so I'm going to keep going and I'm going to make myself better. 983 01:11:51,399 --> 01:11:54,840 I'm gonna get back into the skills and I'm gonna learn what skills I don't 984 01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:56,720 have, and I'm going to do these things. And I'm going to find 985 01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,359 the thing in my life that has provided me meaning my whole life. And 986 01:11:59,359 --> 01:12:01,319 I'm going to say under my life around that. Not on a relationship. 987 01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:06,359 Yes, And it takes Summer having the conversation with him that she did, 988 01:12:06,399 --> 01:12:11,920 that she handled really well and compassionately of it just happened. You weren't wrong 989 01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,239 about all those things about love. You were just wrong about me because I 990 01:12:15,399 --> 01:12:18,640 was inserted into your story. But for me looking at Tom, that would 991 01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,399 be my therapy with him is we're going to be doing a lot of existential, 992 01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:28,079 a lot of ego strengthening work, a lot of let's make your reality 993 01:12:28,159 --> 01:12:31,680 tolerable. Because the owner of the private practice that we all started at is 994 01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:36,119 because of my position. Area and I have had a lot of conversations about 995 01:12:36,159 --> 01:12:41,199 things, and one of the ones that he will use the couples all the 996 01:12:41,319 --> 01:12:45,479 time that I still remember being impactful on me that I use it now is 997 01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:49,600 it's not about whether somebody is running. It's do they need to keep running 998 01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:55,000 when they're cheating, when they're escaping, when they're not grasping the reality. 999 01:12:55,199 --> 01:12:58,479 It's not so much about that they're doing it, it's why are they Why 1000 01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:00,760 do they need to keep doing it? And how do you stop that? 1001 01:13:00,199 --> 01:13:03,840 Tom will not stop that until his base gets secure because he won't stop having 1002 01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:08,760 to escape his reality that's terrible and making him depressed for a fantasy reality, 1003 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:15,880 and he'll just find another girl. Autumn maybe Autumn maybe, Yeah, that 1004 01:13:15,239 --> 01:13:17,079 you know. I read some reviews of the movie. They're like, oh, 1005 01:13:17,159 --> 01:13:19,840 and the sunshine brighter, indicating Tom finally learned. They're like, yeah, 1006 01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,560 I don't know about that. We'll see it's not always to go Maybe 1007 01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:28,199 mister Tom. Maybe maybe he did. And if he was a real life 1008 01:13:28,239 --> 01:13:31,079 person, not a movie character, right, maybe maybe he learned, maybe 1009 01:13:31,159 --> 01:13:35,520 he understood that by making his reality tolerable, he would no longer need to 1010 01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:41,720 escape it, and that by making it meaningful. So it comes back to 1011 01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,840 the ideas that existentialism and other therapies have adopted. They go back to Victor 1012 01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:50,840 Franklin logo therapy. Life must have meaning. Suffering is unavoidable, but if 1013 01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:57,760 you have a why, you can endure anyhow. And once he understands how 1014 01:13:57,880 --> 01:14:00,760 he is pursuing his why, how don't matter anymore. He's just going to 1015 01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:06,079 keep doing what he needs to and he'll stop needing the fantasy girl to make 1016 01:14:06,159 --> 01:14:10,680 him happy, the thing to pull him out of this existence. He'll have 1017 01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,560 it because he'll be providing it to himself and then he'll be able to connect 1018 01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:18,399 with somebody on a real level. Or they can be that, Okay, 1019 01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,000 this is me and this is you, and this is what we're going to 1020 01:14:21,039 --> 01:14:25,439 forge together because this works. And then if they're smart, they're going to 1021 01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:30,880 Hannah's office and be like, so communication, that's a thing, huh exactly? 1022 01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:35,199 And apparently the big love is not enough and you actually have to work 1023 01:14:35,239 --> 01:14:40,359 at it. But being in a you can't get to that place if you're 1024 01:14:40,399 --> 01:14:44,880 still trying to if you're still threatened by reality coming crushing down on you that 1025 01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:46,560 everything's been a lie or everything's going to mistake, or that it won't be 1026 01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:49,640 congruent and that it won't be perfect, and then it can't be the thing, 1027 01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:55,119 and then there's so much anxiety about things that aren't even real or happening 1028 01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:59,600 that keeps a person so disregulated physiologically that they can't focus through any of the 1029 01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:06,199 treatment and they won't listen to you, and they will become stuck and will 1030 01:15:06,279 --> 01:15:14,479 then come back into therapy every week talking about the same shit, recycling the 1031 01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:16,199 same points. But this week we did this week, we did this, 1032 01:15:16,279 --> 01:15:19,840 and this happened, And a skilled therapist, as we get older and more 1033 01:15:20,319 --> 01:15:23,439 at this will be like, uh huh, I mean, I hear you. 1034 01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:25,399 It sounds like you had a hard week. Let's get back to the 1035 01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:27,520 work we set out to do. And then whence you've been saying a long 1036 01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:29,960 enough, you can finally do the whole. So you know, we've been 1037 01:15:30,039 --> 01:15:31,319 working together for a while. Now, do you mind if I make an 1038 01:15:31,359 --> 01:15:36,359 observation about a pattern I've been noticing me and then you come in with your 1039 01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:41,840 weeks of data now and then you can kind of lay on the plane. 1040 01:15:42,079 --> 01:15:45,800 I've noticed that every time you meet a new girl, you start immediately planning 1041 01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:47,920 your life with her. Yeah, and then you talk a lot about the 1042 01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:50,479 things that she likes that you like. But I don't know if I ever 1043 01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:56,960 hear anything about her, it has nothing to do with you. So that 1044 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:00,560 would be my direction. I would say where I would go off of that 1045 01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:08,279 is I'm very rarely this bossy with clients or this like yeah, this authoritarian. 1046 01:16:09,039 --> 01:16:12,560 But I think with Tom, he might be somebody where I would prescribe 1047 01:16:13,159 --> 01:16:16,319 being single for your period of time and our work together, and I would 1048 01:16:16,319 --> 01:16:20,399 be very clear that being single isn't necessarily you don't have a girlfriend. Being 1049 01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:25,239 single means you're not on apps, you're not going on dates, you're not 1050 01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:30,439 flirting at bars, you're not nothing, I know, looking around for any 1051 01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:35,079 of that shit. We're not even having sex. Maybe like celibacy, intentional 1052 01:16:35,119 --> 01:16:43,079 celibacy. And because for some people it's like having to go get sober pretty 1053 01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:46,000 much, they almost have to go cold turkey with dating because it's a distraction, 1054 01:16:46,119 --> 01:16:50,520 a defense mechanism, something they keep falling into and they need to look 1055 01:16:50,600 --> 01:16:55,119 internally. And so then what I would do too is I would maybe propose 1056 01:16:55,159 --> 01:16:57,880 it more as an idea, like, how would it sound if we just 1057 01:16:58,000 --> 01:17:00,199 committed for the next month. Maybe I'd start small. The next month, 1058 01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:04,720 we're just no dating apps, none of that stuff, and then maybe we'll 1059 01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:09,600 just every week when we meet, we'll just keep processing how this feels. 1060 01:17:10,439 --> 01:17:13,560 How does it feel to not have a date on the weekends. How does 1061 01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:17,039 it feel to not have somebody that you're chatting to on your phone because there's 1062 01:17:17,039 --> 01:17:19,439 all dopamine hits to that, you know. I think that's also why dating 1063 01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:23,520 apps is successful, is that you're that ping, ping, ping on your 1064 01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,840 phone and there's always all these options, so you're always getting some relational hit, 1065 01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,239 even if it's super superficial and has nothing to do with you. Really, 1066 01:17:32,399 --> 01:17:35,520 Yep, I got the episode of How I Met Your Mother where Barney 1067 01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:39,960 gets the super Bowl phone is such a good illustration of that. Okay, 1068 01:17:40,239 --> 01:17:42,520 or it just keeps ringing because he put up his phone number on there and 1069 01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,600 like it could be the next hottest girl. I mean, I know he's 1070 01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:46,640 a distraction, distraction, distraction, right, pigheaded thing, but also the 1071 01:17:46,720 --> 01:17:51,279 dopemine hit. Yeah, and so sometimes I'm rope of people. I will 1072 01:17:51,359 --> 01:17:55,399 kind of say, like, do we need to not just cool it on 1073 01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:58,000 dating? Because I think also because of dating apps and things like that, 1074 01:17:58,039 --> 01:18:00,640 in situation ships that's gotten so gray. So I do sometimes have to really 1075 01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:04,840 clarify what do I mean? And sometimes it is like no hooking up nothing 1076 01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:10,680 like especially with the character like Tom, where he probably ascribes a lot of 1077 01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:14,560 meaning even to like casual hookups. Yeah, and so, and as we 1078 01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:16,520 see in the movie, he tries to date right after summer and he's a 1079 01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:21,039 complete goddamn mess. And also like I'm saving all the other people out there 1080 01:18:21,079 --> 01:18:24,640 that don't have to put up with this person in this state. Not that 1081 01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:30,880 I'm thinking about that, but you know, so I think I would push 1082 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:34,520 him to not date and then, like I said, be curious about how 1083 01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:39,119 it feels. I think simultaneously, like you were saying, Ben, I 1084 01:18:39,199 --> 01:18:43,079 would encourage him to build up his sense of identity. Well, first basics, 1085 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:46,159 are we showering on a regular basis? Are we getting enough sleep? 1086 01:18:46,239 --> 01:18:49,000 Are we eating enough food? Like I'd make sure his basic needs are being 1087 01:18:49,079 --> 01:18:53,920 cared for and getting on that good habit if it's not. And then, 1088 01:18:54,279 --> 01:18:58,119 like you were saying, hooking him into what are the things he used to 1089 01:18:58,199 --> 01:19:00,159 like? Sometimes what I asked people? Or what are the things you like 1090 01:19:00,239 --> 01:19:01,880 when you were a kid? You know, what did you like to do? 1091 01:19:02,439 --> 01:19:04,640 Did you like to draw? Did you like to play outside? Did 1092 01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:10,039 you like to skateboard? Can we start introducing maybe some of those things back 1093 01:19:10,039 --> 01:19:12,279 in because centimes, by the time someone hits your office, it's been so 1094 01:19:12,399 --> 01:19:15,279 many years of being detached from their sense of self that they can't even really 1095 01:19:15,359 --> 01:19:18,600 tell you what they do for fun, watch TV, look at their phone, 1096 01:19:19,199 --> 01:19:23,079 go to bars with their friends. So I will send him to go 1097 01:19:23,119 --> 01:19:26,079 all the way back to childhood and say what did you like to do when 1098 01:19:26,119 --> 01:19:28,680 you were a little yeah? Or almost the last time you remember having a 1099 01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:30,880 hobby? What was that? Right? And then I always go back to 1100 01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,319 them yeah, And then I tell them too, even if you think it's 1101 01:19:33,399 --> 01:19:38,600 whatever, do it, you know, act as if you give a shit 1102 01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,159 about that thing, Act as if you're excited. People get hooked up and 1103 01:19:42,359 --> 01:19:45,960 hooked into this idea, especially when they're in a place he's at where something 1104 01:19:46,039 --> 01:19:50,239 has to happen to me, and then I'll feel motivated to engage in ward 1105 01:19:50,279 --> 01:19:54,319 the world. So I'll tell clients, you got to reverse that sometimes, 1106 01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:57,920 so you have to act as if you're motivated, and then that feeling will 1107 01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:03,079 probably follow if you do it instantly enough. And you just gotta act as 1108 01:20:03,119 --> 01:20:08,479 if you enjoy life until you enjoy life again. And so with him, 1109 01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:12,600 I think I would try to build up his day to day structure, his 1110 01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:15,399 day to day sense of joy. Sometimes I have clients, and I stole 1111 01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:20,399 this from TikTok, a TikTok clinician, thank You, where she would have 1112 01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:25,399 her clients keep a like a notepad or like a note in their phone where 1113 01:20:25,399 --> 01:20:28,800 they every time they notice themselves liking something, whether it's I like when it 1114 01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:31,960 reigns, I like Indian food, that they kept like a list of that 1115 01:20:32,079 --> 01:20:35,640 on their phone so they can get better hooked into that feeling within them when 1116 01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:40,680 they notice that they like something something about themselves also that they know is true 1117 01:20:41,239 --> 01:20:44,159 to them, and it can be like I said, those more quote unquote 1118 01:20:44,199 --> 01:20:48,159 superficial things, because all those things build up into a big old pile that's 1119 01:20:48,199 --> 01:20:53,279 you. And so he would be someone that I would want him to do 1120 01:20:53,359 --> 01:20:57,319 all that work while not dating. Yeah, and then once when he starts 1121 01:20:57,439 --> 01:21:00,359 dating, I would have a lot of conversations with him about the speed in 1122 01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:04,119 which he's dating. You know, does he need to wait a while before 1123 01:21:04,119 --> 01:21:09,039 he sleeps with somebody? You know what does? Because I think that's also 1124 01:21:09,079 --> 01:21:12,800 where dating apps have made dating kind of messy, is what does it even 1125 01:21:12,840 --> 01:21:15,840 mean to go on a date? Doesn't mean go into somebody's house right away 1126 01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,199 and hooking up, you know, doesn't mean actually going to sit down dinner. 1127 01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:20,960 How many dates does that look like? How many? You know? 1128 01:21:21,119 --> 01:21:25,560 And so I think we would probably have to talk a lot about boundaries and 1129 01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:30,880 structure when he re engages in dating. Yeah, So being hyper mindful, 1130 01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:33,680 it's certain things I tell clients. Sometimes we have to swing the pendulum all 1131 01:21:33,720 --> 01:21:36,119 the way the other side so we can get to a medium at a certain 1132 01:21:36,159 --> 01:21:41,680 point, a more like natural place. Sometimes you have to be prepared for 1133 01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:46,039 things to feel inorganic until they feel organic again or ever. And so it 1134 01:21:46,079 --> 01:21:48,479 it involves a lot of patients that I ask my clients for a lot of 1135 01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:53,399 patients and a lot of trust in me. But I think he's like he 1136 01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:56,439 needs to be worked made from the ground up, And then I probably would 1137 01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:59,359 loop in what you were talking about been like existential work, if like, 1138 01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:01,239 what are your values? What do you care about? What are your hopes 1139 01:22:01,279 --> 01:22:04,079 and dreams? Are your day to day behaviors going towards that are farther away 1140 01:22:04,079 --> 01:22:08,159 because they're clearly going farther away when we see from most of the movie. 1141 01:22:08,479 --> 01:22:13,680 And then he starts doing more of the logotherapy existential work, which is reimmersing 1142 01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,079 himself, like how am I spending my time going closer to my values by 1143 01:22:17,119 --> 01:22:21,640 getting books of architecture from the library or from the bookstore. Drawing every day, 1144 01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:25,199 even if it doesn't mean anything other than I drove, I drew today, 1145 01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:29,640 you know, finding meaning in these behaviors and acknowledging that they lead to 1146 01:22:29,760 --> 01:22:32,079 a higher purpose, which is just it could be enjoyment. It doesn't have 1147 01:22:32,119 --> 01:22:36,399 to be something more bigger than that, or just like career wise, you 1148 01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:41,840 know what is something he gives a shit about? And so he actually ends 1149 01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:45,079 up incidentally doing that work in the movie, right because it ain't greeting cards. 1150 01:22:45,319 --> 01:22:47,920 It ain't greeting cards. And so that's kind of where I would go 1151 01:22:48,000 --> 01:22:55,319 with Tom hyperstructured for a while together and building him back up right. Agent 1152 01:22:55,359 --> 01:22:59,000 Coulson gives a shit about greeting cards. He does give a shit about greeting 1153 01:22:59,039 --> 01:23:04,039 cards. So that's where that's where I would go. So I have been 1154 01:23:04,119 --> 01:23:13,720 thinking mostly about whether or not I would do therapy with Tom and Summer sometimes, 1155 01:23:14,039 --> 01:23:17,960 when you know I've talked about it on the podcast before that when I 1156 01:23:18,079 --> 01:23:24,199 do couples, I do individual assessments first before I agree to take on the 1157 01:23:24,239 --> 01:23:29,159 couple because a couple work is a lot of work as a therapist and so 1158 01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:32,119 and a part of what I've been mostly thinking about as I've been sitting here 1159 01:23:32,199 --> 01:23:35,159 listening to Ben and Brittany kind of talk about what they would do with Tom, 1160 01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:40,520 I've been thinking about what kind of client Tom would be in my office, 1161 01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:45,399 and I think he would be somebody who pushed back a lot on a 1162 01:23:45,520 --> 01:23:47,319 lot of the different things that I wanted to treat, a lot of the 1163 01:23:47,359 --> 01:23:50,079 different things that I would want to help them with in terms of communication, 1164 01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:56,319 and I think it would end up coming down to I think where I would 1165 01:23:56,319 --> 01:24:00,880 recommend that Tom sees an individual therapist before we really they do some work in 1166 01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:05,520 the couple. And you know why that is because they're in a situationship and 1167 01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:09,520 Tom doesn't have the answer to the one thing that makes them secure, and 1168 01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:13,079 Summer is very secure with that thing, and there is no work to be 1169 01:24:13,159 --> 01:24:16,239 done with that couple. Yeah, exactly, I think so. I mean 1170 01:24:16,319 --> 01:24:19,279 like I think I would. I think I would take them and this is 1171 01:24:19,319 --> 01:24:21,720 what I do with couples, and I tell them this, I say, 1172 01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:25,279 I'm going to meet with you as a couple, and I'm going to meet 1173 01:24:25,319 --> 01:24:29,039 with you individually, and then I will let you know whether or not I 1174 01:24:29,119 --> 01:24:31,720 will be able to help you in the future. Right, because songs Tom 1175 01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:35,319 can't listen to, I don't want a thing and he wants a thing. 1176 01:24:36,039 --> 01:24:41,960 Yeah, then there's nothing that again it's about Yeah, we can't fix that 1177 01:24:42,039 --> 01:24:45,399 because Tom needs to get to know himself better, which is what both of 1178 01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:48,000 you've been talking about. I'm in building up his sense of self because in 1179 01:24:48,119 --> 01:24:53,039 order to have a healthy relationship, both people have to have a secure sense 1180 01:24:53,119 --> 01:24:57,439 of self so that they're able to come together and work on the relationship together 1181 01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:02,000 but still have their parts of themselves that are well established. It's an important 1182 01:25:02,039 --> 01:25:05,520 part of having a healthy relationship. So I think that's all. Did I 1183 01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:13,760 go off there, No, okay, So so yeah, so I feel 1184 01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:16,359 like that's kind of what it would end up looking like in on my side. 1185 01:25:16,800 --> 01:25:19,399 Well, just thinking about that as you bring it up, Hannah, 1186 01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:25,079 is Tom feels like someone who would be who would get disregulated really quickly in 1187 01:25:25,199 --> 01:25:29,199 couples therapy, Like he wouldn't be able to tolerate what Summer was saying or 1188 01:25:29,279 --> 01:25:30,840 the questions you would ask. Well, I think, well, I think 1189 01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,800 he would push back on what I would be suggesting. I don't think we 1190 01:25:33,840 --> 01:25:38,319 would even get to the part where I have both of them doing the couple's 1191 01:25:38,399 --> 01:25:42,039 dialogue. I think I would get I think I would get pushed back even 1192 01:25:42,119 --> 01:25:45,720 bringing it up and suggesting it, because it doesn't solve any problem and it 1193 01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,920 doesn't give him the black and white answer that he wants, which is she 1194 01:25:49,199 --> 01:25:53,520 wants to be in a full on relationship with me. That's the only answer 1195 01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,359 that he's in the room to get. And so anything that doesn't get him 1196 01:25:56,399 --> 01:26:00,640 that answer, I'm going to get full and complete pushed back from him about 1197 01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:01,680 that, and it will come to me. It won't go to Summer. 1198 01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,680 It will come to me because I'm the one who's trying to make the change. 1199 01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:09,159 And I'm the one who's trying to right like that you're causing a problem. 1200 01:26:09,279 --> 01:26:12,399 I'm causing a problem by bringing these things up and bringing these things to 1201 01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:17,359 light. Or he's going to die ad with you that he's going to in 1202 01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:21,960 correctly assume that you're on his side and that you're going to get hurt to 1203 01:26:23,039 --> 01:26:29,239 give him the answer he wants. And then when you don't and you switch, 1204 01:26:29,479 --> 01:26:31,720 you unbalance the relationship back again. Yeah, look at me. Using 1205 01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:34,880 couples therapy terms, I can see that. Yes, when you unbalance the 1206 01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:41,800 dynamic again, he's what the fuck? Yeah, Yeah, it'll just end 1207 01:26:41,880 --> 01:26:45,479 up. It'll end up in a situation where I'm spending the whole session appeasing 1208 01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:47,359 Tom or trying to figure out how to get him to shut his fucking mouth 1209 01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:53,039 so I could do my job. Um, because when when I talk to 1210 01:26:53,159 --> 01:26:58,319 couples, I'm there to work on the relationship. I'm not here to figure 1211 01:26:58,319 --> 01:27:02,279 out who's right or wrong. I'm not here to be a referee in your 1212 01:27:02,359 --> 01:27:05,840 arguments. I'm here to be helpful and I'm here to support the relationship. 1213 01:27:06,159 --> 01:27:09,960 And that's a part of what my job is and I will do that. 1214 01:27:10,439 --> 01:27:14,239 But you also have to do your part. Tom could not do his part. 1215 01:27:14,680 --> 01:27:16,039 Yeah, because of the place that he is, because of the work 1216 01:27:16,079 --> 01:27:18,880 that he still has to do. So this couple, I would not work 1217 01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:23,319 with them because they would not be appropriate for a couple's therapy at this time. 1218 01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:26,920 Yeah, I would agree with that assessment. There is no universe where 1219 01:27:26,960 --> 01:27:29,920 that will get because you know it. We'll go. Honestly, I think 1220 01:27:30,399 --> 01:27:34,159 is it will be that same blow up over and over again of don't I 1221 01:27:34,279 --> 01:27:38,680 get a say in what this is? And I say we're a couple because 1222 01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:44,760 he's expressing his deep seated anxiety that Nope, reality is intolerable without it being 1223 01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:48,279 this reality that I've decided, and probably walk out. Yeah, he'll do 1224 01:27:48,359 --> 01:27:53,880 exactly that I've seen it, or he'll try to convince me of something which 1225 01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:58,560 has also happened in my office. Yes, all right, Well we'll take 1226 01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,640 one final break and then have fine thoughts. All right, so bad. 1227 01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:05,520 I'm gonna have you go first, because I feel like you've all ought to 1228 01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:10,079 say. No, people are not going to be happy here. They may 1229 01:28:10,159 --> 01:28:14,640 not be. We always front load with the person we think liked the least. 1230 01:28:15,039 --> 01:28:20,479 Correct. I as I was life messaging my reactions to Brittany and Hannah 1231 01:28:20,479 --> 01:28:25,720 since they asked me about them. Was very frequently watching this movie going what 1232 01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:29,520 the fuck? Why the fuck is there a dance scene? Why the fuck 1233 01:28:29,640 --> 01:28:32,399 is there a cartoon bluebird? Why is Han solo in this? What the 1234 01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:40,079 fuck? What is happening here? And I didn't like much about this movie 1235 01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:45,680 until Summer confronted him and his little sister confronted him at the end with his 1236 01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:50,800 own bullshit and his own reality, which I thought was valuable. I thought 1237 01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:55,039 it was good, but the journey to get there, this style of movie 1238 01:28:55,159 --> 01:29:00,600 the more like indie quirky film. It's not really my thing. I don't 1239 01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:05,319 particularly enjoy time jump things without a mystery box to them, you famously hate 1240 01:29:05,359 --> 01:29:12,159 them, like you know, like West World Season one was really good, 1241 01:29:12,239 --> 01:29:15,439 but it had a really good mystery box to it, and then it tried 1242 01:29:15,479 --> 01:29:18,039 to do the same thing and it was just really bad from that point forward, 1243 01:29:18,039 --> 01:29:20,239 of like why am I watching? Why am I watching it? Which 1244 01:29:20,319 --> 01:29:24,000 or season one was actually kind of bad with that too, of like what's 1245 01:29:24,039 --> 01:29:28,279 happening? Yeah, I agree with that. I was confused. Yep. 1246 01:29:29,199 --> 01:29:30,119 It got way better when they went, oh, we should do this in 1247 01:29:30,159 --> 01:29:34,840 a linear structure. Like you think, like we're introducing as massive names. 1248 01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:38,359 We can only start. Yeah, you can only start do one thing at 1249 01:29:38,399 --> 01:29:41,920 a time. Either you're introducing into a whole new world with new names and 1250 01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:45,199 new concepts and magic and shit that are weird, or you're telling me a 1251 01:29:45,319 --> 01:29:47,119 story that goes back and forth in time. I can't do both, yeah, 1252 01:29:47,159 --> 01:29:51,359 correct, Yeah, you know, like when I have time to watch 1253 01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:55,359 movies at this phase of my life, I'll measure my criticism with that that, 1254 01:29:55,880 --> 01:30:00,960 like my add meds have now worn off, and it is at night, 1255 01:30:00,079 --> 01:30:02,560 probably after I've done all the things they needed to do, or I 1256 01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:06,119 have space to watch this and give it time, and then if it's jumping 1257 01:30:06,159 --> 01:30:11,800 around on me and I'm going like what, and it's changing narrative, tone, 1258 01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:15,079 and style as frequently as this movie did, of like what the fuck 1259 01:30:15,119 --> 01:30:17,960 am I watching? Like I understand it's vignettes that tied together to tell the 1260 01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:21,640 piece. I get it, but like I did not love it. But 1261 01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:27,399 what I did like about it was that in the end of it, maybe 1262 01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:32,520 just maybe someone being forced to reckon with their reality make the changes that they 1263 01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:40,079 needed to make, and not beyond this constant string of endless bullshit to escape 1264 01:30:40,359 --> 01:30:44,520 their reality and learning to actually deal with it might make a positive change in 1265 01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:46,079 your life. Well, if I don't believe in that message, I'm in 1266 01:30:46,079 --> 01:30:54,159 the wrong field. So I liked that about it, but the style structure 1267 01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,439 ultimately didn't didn't grab me. It's probably not one I'm going to be like, 1268 01:30:57,520 --> 01:30:59,880 Oh, I gotta watch this movie again over and over. Probably not. 1269 01:31:00,319 --> 01:31:03,239 It's probably one that y'all made me watch because you voted for it instead 1270 01:31:03,239 --> 01:31:06,119 of voting for A Night's Tale, which I understand is a mess of a 1271 01:31:06,199 --> 01:31:11,399 movie and is ridiculous, but it's also just one of the ones that just 1272 01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:16,039 nailed a date movie perfectly, and we should have done that. But thank 1273 01:31:16,079 --> 01:31:19,760 you for voting and engaging with us and making me do something that I was 1274 01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:23,880 not going to watch under any circumstances until I had. And also, fuck 1275 01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:30,199 you guys and your taste. You can read whatever subtypes. I will watch 1276 01:31:30,279 --> 01:31:32,880 whatever movies you guys. You know you guys want to hear it, I'll 1277 01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:36,960 do it. But songs, we're prepared, But this is not my style 1278 01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:44,119 of movie. Okay, Hannah. So I've only seen this movie two times, 1279 01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,840 and the second time was because I had too for the podcast. The 1280 01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:54,479 first time, I've never liked Tom. I always thought he was a scumbag, 1281 01:31:55,680 --> 01:32:00,960 and I find that to be true. The second time. I don't 1282 01:32:01,039 --> 01:32:06,000 like Tom. I don't like any of the men in this film. The 1283 01:32:06,119 --> 01:32:10,000 only thing that I like about this film I do like the style of it. 1284 01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:13,319 I don't mind the jumping around, because that's never been a thing that's 1285 01:32:13,359 --> 01:32:20,479 bothered me. But the some of the ways that the movie is shown, 1286 01:32:20,600 --> 01:32:25,079 in terms of the architecture pieces, in terms of the street turning into a 1287 01:32:25,199 --> 01:32:29,079 drawing, some of those pieces were kind of just like fun to watch. 1288 01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:33,399 So I like the movie style wise or otherwise, I don't like it and 1289 01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:36,840 I won't ever watch it again. All Right, And now there's me. 1290 01:32:38,319 --> 01:32:43,800 So I am of the indie quirky persuasion in that when this movie came out, 1291 01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:45,680 you best believe my asses in that seat, babe, and I saw 1292 01:32:45,720 --> 01:32:48,119 the movie, I think twice in theaters. I'm surprised I don't own a 1293 01:32:48,199 --> 01:32:53,960 DVD copy of it. This movie was made for me. Hi, it's 1294 01:32:54,039 --> 01:32:59,600 me. I'm the problem. It's me, and so I love this movie. 1295 01:33:00,159 --> 01:33:02,760 I'm surprised I don't own it. To be quite honest, I was 1296 01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:06,279 twenty three, twenty two, twenty three when I first came out, So 1297 01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:12,640 I was not fully developed, brainless, and I really bought into the love 1298 01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:15,239 story of it. I bought into him. I was genuinely bombed and out 1299 01:33:15,319 --> 01:33:21,159 up together, like it's astounding to rewatch it with much older eyes and life 1300 01:33:21,199 --> 01:33:27,359 experience and a fully developed frontal lobe and immediately be like, oh no, 1301 01:33:27,640 --> 01:33:30,319 no, because I don't think I've watched this in like ten years, if 1302 01:33:30,359 --> 01:33:34,920 not more. And so one, it's a date. It's a movie that 1303 01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:40,720 definitely dates itself. I know that we are like like going forward so fast 1304 01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:44,600 societally in terms of terms and stuff like that. But the fact that one 1305 01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:46,600 of the first scenes in this movie, what you're gonna get really mad at 1306 01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:51,119 me? What you know, how we've been talking about this movie, yes, 1307 01:33:51,319 --> 01:33:55,800 the entire time. Yeah, that told you it was not a love 1308 01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:59,479 story. Yes, And you just admitted you bought into it at twenty three. 1309 01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:01,720 Yeah, oh my god. I know I'm part of the problem. 1310 01:34:02,199 --> 01:34:09,039 And so, but I would say I really loved I still love all the 1311 01:34:09,119 --> 01:34:11,960 music in it. The soundtrack of this movie is like the soundtrack of my 1312 01:34:12,079 --> 01:34:16,279 twenties. I love temper Trap, The Sweet Disposition song that like hits something 1313 01:34:16,359 --> 01:34:20,279 in my brain every time I hear it makes it so happy. But I 1314 01:34:20,319 --> 01:34:25,479 also love that band and I wanted to be Zodachtionnel, like this was right 1315 01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:29,439 up my alley. And but like I was saying, you know, it 1316 01:34:29,520 --> 01:34:32,279 immediately dates itself in that like one of the first lines of the movie is 1317 01:34:32,319 --> 01:34:34,279 there are two types of people in the world, men and women, And 1318 01:34:34,319 --> 01:34:42,479 I was like, oh no. And and just like the way the fact 1319 01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:45,159 that one of the opening frames of the movie is calling a woman a bitch, 1320 01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:48,760 you know, like this movie is for Jenny something bitch or you're a 1321 01:34:48,800 --> 01:34:54,079 bitch or something like. The way this movie talks about women is not cool. 1322 01:34:55,239 --> 01:34:58,840 And I know that that might be the point in some regards, but 1323 01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:01,000 it just was like it took the wind out of me, Like you want 1324 01:35:01,039 --> 01:35:03,560 me to be rooting for this guy who just called a girl a bitch and 1325 01:35:03,600 --> 01:35:10,359 a skank, Like you've lost me entirely. Yeah, And so now watching 1326 01:35:10,439 --> 01:35:14,800 it, I don't know if I'll ever watch it again because it feels ruined 1327 01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:20,199 by time, Like it just feels ruined by time, and I'm not rooting 1328 01:35:20,239 --> 01:35:23,560 for the main character, so it's always hard to get into a movie where 1329 01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:28,640 you're not rooting for the main character, and yeah, it just I really 1330 01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:30,079 but I will say, by the end of it, I could remember why 1331 01:35:30,119 --> 01:35:33,720 I liked so much, because I do love all the stylistic choices. If 1332 01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:36,359 you do something different in a movie or a TV show, you got me 1333 01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:41,600 if you do something creatively different. So I love the scene where it's expectation 1334 01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:45,800 and reality next to each other. I really like that as a narrative device. 1335 01:35:45,079 --> 01:35:49,560 Yeah, and it really outlined Tom's in her world and how off fucking 1336 01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:54,640 kilter he is. Yeah, with his perception. I like the drawing part 1337 01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,760 you like you're saying, Hannah, and so there's a lot of it, 1338 01:35:57,920 --> 01:36:00,640 and I do I hate what they're saying, but I do like how they 1339 01:36:00,680 --> 01:36:03,319 did that shift where they're like, Summer was you know whether they do kind 1340 01:36:03,319 --> 01:36:06,439 of like almost like a powerful presentation about summer in the beginning. So I 1341 01:36:06,600 --> 01:36:11,000 like that this movie made choices that were different than a standard rom com. 1342 01:36:11,119 --> 01:36:15,119 I always I always like when directors do things differently. That's why I love 1343 01:36:15,199 --> 01:36:18,840 like leagions, when my favorite shows that shows always doing the last thing you 1344 01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:25,399 think they're doing. So I really love when something breaks form like that. 1345 01:36:26,359 --> 01:36:30,000 So I would say stylistically, I like the movie and it holds a lot 1346 01:36:30,079 --> 01:36:32,439 of nostalgic for me because I was that girl at that time, I had 1347 01:36:32,479 --> 01:36:36,880 bangs and everything. So it's it gets me because I think something to note 1348 01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:41,520 too is you've never seen this movie until you watched it for the podcast Ben 1349 01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:44,039 correct. So I have a lot of nostalgia coming in, which I'm aware 1350 01:36:44,039 --> 01:36:46,159 of. But even then I was like, oh when I started watching, 1351 01:36:46,159 --> 01:36:48,800 and I was like, oh, this is bad. Y'all alert, alert, 1352 01:36:48,880 --> 01:36:54,199 this is bad. And so my assumption is as people, I'm curious, 1353 01:36:54,319 --> 01:36:57,880 and people let us know, either you know, Instagram comments or messages 1354 01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:00,920 and some fashion or emails. How many people wanted us to talk about this 1355 01:37:01,039 --> 01:37:06,119 movie because they still hold it in positive acclaim in their minds and genuine is 1356 01:37:06,199 --> 01:37:09,560 love it and wanted to hear talk about the movie they still love, or 1357 01:37:09,680 --> 01:37:14,840 how many people wanted us through this movie because Tom sucks and Tom's always sucked 1358 01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:16,479 and they know that, or that they used to love this movie and now 1359 01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:19,520 like had this experience like mine, and then they watched it again now that 1360 01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:24,880 they're older and they're like, oh no, so let us know where this 1361 01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:28,479 movie hits you and why like you wanted us to do it. If it's 1362 01:37:28,520 --> 01:37:30,560 falls in one of those categories or not, it's I'll be really interested to 1363 01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:35,319 know that because this movie is beloved, Like people do love this movie. 1364 01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:39,880 Yeah, and I'm curious how much that love has held up. Yeah. 1365 01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:45,640 I mean I probably was Tom, like I just gotten done being Tom, 1366 01:37:45,920 --> 01:37:47,600 like I wasn't at the time this movie came out, but it was probably 1367 01:37:47,720 --> 01:37:54,640 way too close to like having you know, not had the developmental love made 1368 01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:58,960 some real questionable choices in life, and like tried to fit things into a 1369 01:37:59,039 --> 01:38:03,760 narrative like all I see him, I did it. So probably why I 1370 01:38:03,800 --> 01:38:08,000 actively avoided at that point was like, no, no, we did this. 1371 01:38:08,199 --> 01:38:11,399 We're good. You get it. Yeah, no, No, we 1372 01:38:11,439 --> 01:38:14,319 don't need the movie to teach us that we're good. So I think this 1373 01:38:14,479 --> 01:38:18,159 is one of the few times when all three of us say unanimously, I'm 1374 01:38:18,159 --> 01:38:24,359 not gonna watch it again. Ever, So with that being said, thank 1375 01:38:24,439 --> 01:38:27,399 you for joining us for this Valenthain's Day episode. I hope no matter what 1376 01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:30,000 your situation is, that you have a good time they take care of yourself 1377 01:38:30,079 --> 01:38:32,520 and take care of your loved ones and just you know, get into it 1378 01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:35,520 for Valhein's Day, whatever way that means. And get out of your situation 1379 01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:39,680 ship if you're in one and it makes you feel bad, and go watch 1380 01:38:39,800 --> 01:38:45,319 nights too exactly all right, Well, thank you and we will guys see 1381 01:38:45,319 --> 01:38:45,680 you soon.