WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.759 It's an interesting one because I think it also shines a light on somewhat of 2 00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:09.519 the immaturity in the space. So this particular vulnerability was found in a fork 3 00:00:09.839 --> 00:00:12.880 of Bitcoin, which is why you know it was like two hundred and semha 4 00:00:13.039 --> 00:00:17.320 change that were particularly affected. And the particular vulnerabilities, as I remember because 5 00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:22.079 it was a couple of months ago, was the ability effectively to execute arbitrary 6 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:28.839 code and effectively bring nodes offline, which could effectively lower the amount of operating 7 00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:31.960 notes that we can potentially launch a fifty one percent attack or just cause a 8 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:44.039 disruption in the network to lower the value of the particular asset. This content 9 00:00:44.119 --> 00:00:47.560 is brought to you by v chain, which is a leading enterprise grade Layer 10 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:53.640 one public blockchain spear hitting a digital revolution from a sustainable, highly scalable smart 11 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:58.640 contract platform. The v chain blockchain has many unique features, which makes it 12 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:03.479 an ideal choice for Web three applications. V chain is working with many great 13 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:08.840 enterprises such as PWCGVONCI, BMW and Walmart China. Most recently, they partnered 14 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:17.040 with the Boston Consulting Group to build a revolutionary decentralized application ecosystem. I'm a 15 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:19.680 big believer in this project. I have been since twenty eighteen. I've been 16 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:25.920 a VET token holder for years and this blockchain is highly scalable, great with 17 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.719 security and speed, and it has low energy consumption. If you'd like to 18 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:34.799 learn more about v chain, please visit vchain dot org. Link will be 19 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.480 in a description. Welcome to the Thinking Crypto Podcast, your home for cryptocurrency 20 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:42.519 news and interviews. With me today is David Schwed, who's the chief operating 21 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:49.040 officer at Halbert Albern is, a blockchain security firm with full stacked security solutions. 22 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.400 David, great to have you back on. Thanks for having me David. 23 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.359 You have a plethor of experience in the crypto industry. You spend time 24 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.319 at BNY, Melon, the Galaxy Digital, and obviously doing some great things 25 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:05.560 here at al Halbern. But let's start with your background. Where you from 26 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:09.400 and what's your professional background? Sure you know my my twenty thousand foot overview, 27 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:13.360 my elevator pitch, if you will. Three arcs of my career. 28 00:02:13.960 --> 00:02:19.599 Started working in traditional finance and various infrastructure type roles, information security, risk 29 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.960 management, audit. In two thousand and eight, I co founded a telecommunications 30 00:02:23.000 --> 00:02:28.400 company which I ran for about ten years before were required, And in twenty 31 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:31.000 eighteen is when I got professionally into crypto. On a personal level, I've 32 00:02:31.000 --> 00:02:36.680 been involved since around twenty twelve, but after I edited my telecommunications company, 33 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:39.039 that's when I hit the role over at Galaxy Digital as their chief security officer. 34 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:44.400 And I've been in crypto professionally since twenty eighteen. And what was your 35 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.879 first encounter with bitcoin and what was your AHA moment? So for me, 36 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:53.120 it wasn't this, you know, I didn't look at it from an asset 37 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:55.199 perspective, you know, well, you know, in twenty twelve, obviously 38 00:02:55.240 --> 00:02:59.439 I knew a bitcoin, or actually even prior to twenty twelve, and then 39 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:02.560 two well, I kind of took the leap more from a technological perspective, 40 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:07.800 this concept of decentralized ledger from a resilient like I'm looking at it pure purely 41 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:14.360 from a technological risk management perspective, and just this concept of this decentralized ledger 42 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:17.639 and immutability of transactions, that's really what kind of struck a chord with me. 43 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.919 It wasn't so much the store of value, you know, for me, 44 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:24.360 Bitcoin at the time was just a use case of digital ledger technology. 45 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:28.520 I wasn't looking at it as this is going to you know, become a 46 00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.960 seventy thousand dollars you know again as of today, you know asset. So 47 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:36.479 for me again, it was more that the technology that that kind of struck 48 00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:40.400 a chord. And you spent time at B and Y Mellon as the global 49 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:45.159 head of digital asset technology, tell us about that, and were you around 50 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:50.080 when they launched the crypto custody service. Now, so I had left a 51 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.520 couple of months prior to that, but my organization was responsible for effectively building 52 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.360 what was eventually launched, you know, it was it was definitely an interesting 53 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.800 time to be at the you know of the world's largest or if not the 54 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:04.360 largest, you know custodian and for them to kind of take the leap into 55 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.639 digital az set custody was really really exciting for me because at this point I've 56 00:04:09.680 --> 00:04:14.680 been working professionally in crypto for a while and having that background in you know, 57 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.439 trad by, I understand how things are built at banks and they're really 58 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.480 built to a completely different level than you know, a lot of other organizations. 59 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:23.959 So it was really really excited, you know, to be part of 60 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.000 you know, the oldest bank and you know, at least in the United 61 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.920 States and the largest custodial bank in the world and building you know, digital 62 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:33.399 asset custody platform. So it was it was definitely a very exciting time for 63 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:38.399 Sure. So tell us about Halburn, give us a history the mission in 64 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:44.879 the services Sure. So you know, Halborne is is a cybersecurity company. 65 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.959 We're focusing on that convergence of Web two and Web three, you know, 66 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:53.959 for any cybersecurity company to effectively protect, if you will, and that's what 67 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.759 we are. We're protectors of people with assets and people's you know, money, 68 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:00.199 right like we're you know, providing a value in sense that we're you 69 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:05.240 know, protecting people's you know, financial viability and stability and projects also. 70 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:10.839 But if you look at what an organization needs to do to protect a Web 71 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:15.920 three either project or organization, it's looking not just on the Web three threats 72 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.279 as far as the smart contract code, but it's also all of the other 73 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:23.160 things that make up that particular project. So whether it's the web front end, 74 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:27.240 whether it's the individual process of the developers and how the code makes it 75 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:30.839 from the developers you know, device and into production. So we look holistically 76 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:34.279 at all of the threats end to end. Now, tell us about clients, 77 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:39.319 the type of clients you work with, whether they're blockchain projects or custodians 78 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:43.040 or wallet services and so forth. Sure, you know, like I say, 79 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.399 you know, we can be anywhere from a DJN and a friend to 80 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:48.399 you know, talking about digital assets with some of the world's largest banks. 81 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:54.680 You know, we work with Web three native organizations. We also work with 82 00:05:54.759 --> 00:05:58.680 layer ones directly, and then we'll also work with large enterprises that will have 83 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.959 a Web three initiative. So whether it's a large gaming company, retail company, 84 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:08.040 or you know globally systemic important bank who's building custody solutions or thinking about 85 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:13.920 tokenization, or you know, figuring out payment rails, or even organizations that 86 00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.720 are using digital ledger technology that maybe you know, it's not an asset or 87 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.759 a token that's listed and you can't trade it on the main net, but 88 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:24.279 they're figuring out how to use digital ledger technology as like the rails if you 89 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:30.079 will, or you know, how to create operational efficiencies on a traditional financial 90 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.439 product. So we'll work with you know, across the gamut from from one 91 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:38.160 end of the spectrum to the other. So maybe you could take us behind 92 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:41.279 a curtain a bit as much as you can. What would the process be. 93 00:06:41.360 --> 00:06:44.519 So let's say I have a layer one blockchain, I come to Halburn 94 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.120 and I said, you know, I want to look for vulnerabilities and any 95 00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:50.920 type of security risk. What would be the next steps for the folks at 96 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:54.639 Helburn. Yeah, you know, that's a great question. You know, 97 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:59.600 I think it really depends on you know, if they're looking at us from 98 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.319 any consultancy perspective, there's a lot that we can do. A lot of 99 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:05.120 times firms will come to us and say we need you to do this one 100 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:11.680 piece and understandably so you know, our focus will be myopically focused on that 101 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:15.319 particular engagement. But our ideal working relationship with a partner, you know, 102 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.639 I like to call our clients partners, is you know, helping them understand 103 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:24.079 the threats to their organization. And it might be a code review like I 104 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.199 said, or it might be understanding their DevOps process. At the end of 105 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:30.199 the day, if we look at this from a risk management perspective or through 106 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.759 the lens of risk management, we're trying to understand what are the different threats 107 00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:38.399 to that particular project or organization, what are the controls that they have in 108 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.759 place, and can we ensure that those controls are perfectively mitigated. So we'd 109 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.720 like to take more of an advisory roll upfront to help them understand what those 110 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:49.959 two particular threats are and then make certain recommendations of here, we want to 111 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:54.399 double click into this and do a pen test, and we want to double 112 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:58.360 click here and do a review of the particular source code, or we want 113 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.600 to really understand your DevOps process. So you're c c D, so that's 114 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.160 you know, ideally what it is, but if you want to talk about 115 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.800 process, you know, individually, it's first getting a real or understanding of 116 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.079 the code, the code based and the dependencies, then developing a test plan 117 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:16.199 in collaboration with that client to say, you know, these are the things 118 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:20.399 that we are particularly concerned with based on what the code is supposed to do. 119 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:22.680 We'll identify what those you know, test cases are, work with the 120 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.879 client, do that review of the code, you know, test against those 121 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:31.519 test cases, and then you know, internally obviously having a very well established 122 00:08:31.559 --> 00:08:37.879 QA process, and then work with the client to identify any particular findings, 123 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:41.360 work with them to suggest some remediations, and then we'll also confirm after the 124 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.639 remediations have been in place, that these identified vulnerabilities have been effectively addressed. 125 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:54.559 Now, there was recent reports from Halburn that the you guys have discovered vulnerabilities 126 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.600 in dogecoin, light coin, and z cash. What can you tell us 127 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:01.679 there, Yeah, so that one that's interesting one because I think it also 128 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.639 shines a light on somewhat of the immaturity in the space. So this particular 129 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:11.039 vulnerability was found, you know, in a fork of Bitcoin, which is 130 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.879 why you know, it was like two hundred and sea change that were particularly 131 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.799 affected. And the particular vulnerabilities I remember because it was a couple of months 132 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:24.559 ago, was the ability effectively to execute arbitrary code and effectively bring nodes offline, 133 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:30.960 which could effectively lower the amount of note operating notes that we can potentially 134 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:33.200 launch a fifty one percent attack or just cause a disruption in the network to 135 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:39.279 lower the value of the particular asset. And this particular vulnerability was found, 136 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.240 like I said, in a fork. So what we did was after that 137 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:48.519 identify vulnerability was identified, you know, we checked all of the forks and 138 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:50.080 we said, okay, here's two hundred and some on projects that are now 139 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:54.519 vulnerable and when I say the immaturity in the space is because a lot of 140 00:09:54.720 --> 00:09:58.399 code is fork from other particular projects. Which is fine, and that's the 141 00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:01.120 beauty of open source. We can take in the listing projects, fork it 142 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:03.200 and you know, make it our own. The problem comes to play when 143 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:09.039 you don't have experienced developers or a well established vulnerability management program, you know, 144 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:13.360 to go back and start, you know, looking at the main branches 145 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.440 that you've been forked from to see what kind of changes and seeing if there's 146 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:22.039 any vulnerabilities that are potentially been mitigated in the parent project. So you know, 147 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:24.559 two hundred and SUMA chains. You know, we're identified as you know, 148 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:30.879 having this particular vulnerability now as someone who's investing in the crypto market and 149 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:35.399 in different tokens, right, this is important information I would want to know 150 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:39.279 about because of course there's some sort of you know, a hack or whatever 151 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.440 it may be that's going to impact the price of the acid and I'm holding. 152 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.240 So do you guys put out any type of tracker or list for coins 153 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:54.080 and maybe a status safe not safe, possibly you know, anything along those 154 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:58.360 lines. Now we don't, you know, we do do some engagements for 155 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:01.639 you know, some venture cap little private equity firms or just investment management companies 156 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:05.200 you know that will engage us on a one off we're you know, thinking 157 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:09.360 about either investing in a particular project or investing in a particular token, and 158 00:11:09.399 --> 00:11:11.080 they'll have us do due diligence. So we do work on a one off 159 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:16.039 basis, but there's nothing publicly that we publish on that. Now, you 160 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:20.080 did raise ninety million dollars in a series A funding. Tell us about that 161 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:24.159 and who participated? Yeah, sure, the lead investor was a Summit Partners. 162 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.399 There's a number of follow ons as well, and you know, I 163 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:33.320 think it just speaks to the understanding of where we're headed and that, you 164 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:35.960 know, the importance of Web three. You know, if you look at 165 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:37.039 that, you know, again it's not just the size of the round of 166 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.080 you know, what we raise, but just the level of commitment as far 167 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.960 as the ability to grow as an organization, you know, in order to 168 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:50.320 build projects. But it really just highlights the importance of Web three, digital 169 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:52.720 assets, crypto, whatever you want to call it, is the future of 170 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:58.200 our financial services. Now, David, tough question for you, because we've 171 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:03.639 seen DeFi exploits over the years, you know, different hacks and so on 172 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.679 and so forth. And I know every iter ration or web one point oh, 173 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.679 I should say one point oh version of any technology. There's going to 174 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.600 be bugs. There's gonna be problems, and you guys are obviously have a 175 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:20.200 critical service where you're going to help mitigate a lot of this. But I 176 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.120 would love to get your take on are we making progress because sometimes I feel 177 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:28.840 we don't. We're not, especially on defive. There's been so many exploits 178 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.440 and drains and much more. What is your perspective on that we are and 179 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.039 we aren't we are? I'll talk about the good first and then the bad. 180 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:43.159 The good is there's a lot of knowledge, there's a lot of tools, 181 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.039 there's a lot of people that are more knowledgeable in the space from a 182 00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:48.639 security perspective. You know, a couple of years ago, there wasn't Web 183 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.519 three monitor you know, security services that were you know, you know you 184 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.480 were able to do an API call and check for anomalies, and you know 185 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:01.000 behavior and you know launching, you know, simulate of transactions you know before 186 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.120 they actually execute. So we have a lot more tools at our disposal than 187 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:07.759 we did years ago that a lot of organizations are using and we are definitely 188 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:13.000 mitigating risks. So I think we are making a tremendous progress and like I 189 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.399 said, knowledge and tools. I think the downside though, is there's still 190 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.240 a lot of projects that are launching with very minimal funding that are not paying 191 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.000 attention to security. And I think on the flip side, the ecosystem itself, 192 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.360 you know, a lot of this is still let me try to make 193 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.240 a quick buck and you know, meme coin, shit coin, ol coin, 194 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.879 whatever you want to call it, and or just you know, hey, 195 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.840 here's a project that launched and I don't really care about the project or 196 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:39.200 the security thereof, and I'm going to try to flip it, you know, 197 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:43.519 ifter it goes up a couple of cents, And some of these projects 198 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.759 without true security have you know tvls. You know, even if it's twenty 199 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:52.279 thirty forty fifty million dollars, that's a significant amount of money of people's assets. 200 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:54.600 And as a thread actor, you know, the thirty forty million dollars 201 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.519 yield is still a lot. So you're seeing some sophisticated thread actors going after 202 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:03.320 projects where it's like you know, the major league hackers are going after like 203 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.360 you know, little league, you know, when it comes to a sense 204 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.519 of you know, security folks. That's such an important note that you mentioned 205 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:13.559 there. You got these coins that pop up overnight, especially the meme coins 206 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.600 right, which have been going crazy lately. But folks think it's, oh, 207 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.879 I'll just put my money in, but that could usually be rugged or 208 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.120 have some sort of security issue and they don't think about it. And it's 209 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.080 so important for them to have that knowledge and education, you know, kind 210 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.960 of what you guys are doing. But it's I don't know, I guess 211 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:35.000 it is what it is in the market. I don't know how do you 212 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.799 stop it? But uh, people, maybe it's the awareness in the education 213 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.279 that needs to be Yeah, I mean it's definitely awareness. And it's also 214 00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.000 you know, part of it, like I said, is the ecosystem's fault 215 00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:46.960 in and of itself. Like we see this, you know, indefnant traditional 216 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:48.240 stock market. You know, I remember when you stick the train to the 217 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.360 city every day, you know, I would hear somebody, you know, 218 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.799 whisper that they got some information about a particular stock and you know, people 219 00:14:54.799 --> 00:14:58.879 are just buying it just based on a rumor. It's the same thing onset. 220 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:01.559 Still, this pumped up in some respect, like, you know, 221 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.519 I'm you know that by the time the news makes it to me, you 222 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:07.799 know, I'm somebody's exit, you know in some respect, and it's really 223 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.320 just kind of taking that those same people and those same actors and just moving 224 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:16.200 into a new world. So I don't you know, I don't necessarily buy 225 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.080 into crypto is you know, creating these types of you know, environments. 226 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:24.360 I think we're just shifting from one environment to another environment, and these people 227 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.799 are always going to be grifters and find ways to you know, flice people 228 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:30.480 out of it. But I think, you know again, I think people 229 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.240 need to really understand what they're investing in. You know, if they're investing 230 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.639 in you know, I don't know whatever coin and there's really no utility behind 231 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:41.759 that particular coin, it's a gamble, you know. So yeah, absolutely, 232 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:46.080 well put so on that note, you know, we talked about looking 233 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:52.480 for you know, you highlight it like forks having some issues because there's not 234 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.440 you know, developers backing it and it's not updated, you know, quite 235 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.120 often. Watch out for these meme coins. What are some other things as 236 00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.120 you guys are seeing in the industry that maybe the average Joe and Jane who 237 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.440 are looking to invest should be aware of. Yeah, I think you know, 238 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.720 I'm not just saying this because I come from a world of custody. 239 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:15.240 I think custody is still still somewhat of an issue. You know, at 240 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.159 the end of the day, custody is foundational to anything that you do in 241 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:22.519 crypto. And if you look at a project, you know, five people, 242 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.440 ten people, you have to really stop and think about. You know, 243 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:30.159 somebody's holding these keys to the treasury or where there's some policies someplace that's 244 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.320 you know, maybe that's protecting against an emergency withdrawal for a rug pull. 245 00:16:33.639 --> 00:16:37.519 And I don't think custody really has been truly solved, Like there's definitely solutions 246 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:41.960 out there, but as far as the implementation of those solutions, you know, 247 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:45.320 where are those recovery packages if you're talking about you know, MPC. 248 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.559 I think there's still a lot of nuance that needs to be figured out when 249 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.039 it comes to custody and wallets. So I think that's an area that I 250 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.559 would be particularly interested if I'm talking to a particular project, you know, 251 00:16:56.519 --> 00:17:00.879 who owns the keys to that project or the upgrade of proxy track, you 252 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.799 know, to understand that piece you know, and I think, you know, 253 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:07.960 not to shine a light on you know, the industry a little bit 254 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.519 more. But you know, LinkedIn is a great resource to understand just how 255 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:14.519 well versed a project is. You know, I go on LinkedIn, I 256 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:17.480 click on a project and I see how many people are working at that project. 257 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:19.119 I look at the backgrounds of the developers. I see if there's any 258 00:17:19.119 --> 00:17:22.599 security folks that are on there. It's scary to me a lot of projects 259 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.200 that I click into and I see absolutely no security folks. It's just developers 260 00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:30.480 and marketers and biz dev people. So again, developers are not security people. 261 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.200 Security people are not developers. I would not want to hire a security 262 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:37.319 person to be my developer because they don't have it. That same mindset, 263 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.440 same respect goes to developers, you know, being security folks. So you 264 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.000 know that's link use LinkedIn just look at the team and make an assessment of 265 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.000 whether or not this is something that I want to, you know, put 266 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:52.119 a particular material amount of assets into Yeah, great point, and I've often 267 00:17:52.240 --> 00:17:55.880 told people to do that too, to have that, you know, is 268 00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:59.799 there a digital trail, what was the background of these people? What's going 269 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.240 on? Right? Can you readily identify them and all these things. So 270 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:08.440 that LinkedIn is certainly a great resource. And you know, another hard question 271 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:15.440 for you, I don't know what iteration we're in right now for for wallets 272 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.640 and these things and custody. And we have the ETFs that have been launched 273 00:18:19.720 --> 00:18:25.880 right and and there with the Wall Street firms that have established custody insurance, 274 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:30.839 a lot of security layers and so forth. Do you see maybe in five 275 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.880 years a lot of these vulnerabilities and issues will be put to bed and will 276 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:42.960 be maybe at a higher standard's that's a good question. I think the answer 277 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:48.720 comes down to, again what the industry is looking for. Like there's different 278 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:55.079 tiers. If you look at you know, let's just take the ets for 279 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:57.480 example. So if you look at you know, it's been basically Fidelity, 280 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.039 Gemini and coinbase, And if you look at those organizations, they are fintech 281 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:08.559 organizations that you know, offer custodial services. And if you look traditionally at 282 00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.039 again, this is not a knock on any of the qualified custodians that are 283 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:15.559 out there that are in the space today, but there is a world of 284 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:19.440 a difference between bank level security and security from a fintech organization that that's you 285 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:23.559 know, just actively building in the space. Especially a lot of these organizations 286 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:27.599 are privately held, so you know, we don't really understand truly from a 287 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:33.200 financial viability perspective, like how safe is that particular organization. You know, 288 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.240 when you're talking about a bank, you know you have you know, you 289 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:40.200 know, federal examiners in there. If they're publicly traded, you have sec 290 00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:41.880 you have socks four or four. There's a different level of oversight for a 291 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.799 publicly traded organization and a true bank versus a trust company. There is a 292 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.039 difference in a bank and a trust company. So I think, you know, 293 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.720 as we're starting to see the globally systemic important banks starting to offer custody, 294 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.799 I am you know, I think we're going to see a lot more 295 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.319 capital come into you know, the market. Like if we look at today, 296 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.519 you know, people like to look at the market cap of crypto is 297 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:07.359 what's the value of bitcoin, what's the value of eth, what's the value 298 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:08.799 of soul or whatever it is? You know, But I you know, 299 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.920 I challenge everybody to kind of look at it from a different perspective, look 300 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.559 at it from a tokenization perspective, and look at it from the debt market 301 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:21.160 and the equity market, and we have over two hundred trillion dollars of value 302 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.720 there. So when we start getting into tokenization of bonds and tokenization of equities, 303 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:30.759 we're going to start to see the requirement of truly custodying hundreds of trillions 304 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.720 of dollars. And I think we're going to need a different layer and a 305 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:38.400 different you know, just working environment to kind of secure those assets. So 306 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.160 I do think things are going to change for the better in the next couple 307 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.440 of years. You know. Again, this isn't a knock on any of 308 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.799 the existing players in the market, but I do think that there's going to 309 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:52.000 be an elevated sense of security for a lot of custodians for sure. Now 310 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:57.759 with the big cooin ETF launch and you have different custodians participating in a coinbase 311 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:02.000 is a big, big one custoding a lot of the ets. Have you 312 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:07.599 seen more demand for your services and are you working You probably can't name drop, 313 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.759 but are you working with any of the ETF shoers or custodians. Yeah, 314 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.359 you know, without getting into specifics, you know, we have done 315 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:18.000 some work in that area, you know, you know, I don't want 316 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:19.839 to specifically go into it, but we did, you know, you know, 317 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:22.880 assist in some respect and you know, figuring out what a what a 318 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.759 what a custodial solution or what the custody strategy should look like. As far 319 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:33.640 as demand of our services, we are seeing an uptick in the banking sector, 320 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.079 you know, looking for looking for our services. You know, interestingly, 321 00:21:37.119 --> 00:21:38.720 a lot of it's on the advisory side, which I like because it's 322 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:42.000 like, start earlier engaging in security experts. You know, I like to 323 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:47.000 bucket our services into advisory. You know, how can we do blank and 324 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:51.559 a sharing services? Can you please please make sure we did blank correctly and 325 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.000 you're able to fix things quicker and you're able to build things better if we 326 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:59.960 start earlier. So a lot of the you know, major banks are engaged 327 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.839 with us earlier to help think through things. How can we build things properly? 328 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.799 How can we start thinking about integrating here and doing the things properly as 329 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:10.960 opposed to let me go build it and then ask you afterwards that I do 330 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:12.920 it correctly. So definitely an uptick, you know, i'd say, over 331 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:17.440 the past twelve to eighteen months in those types of services from some of the 332 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:19.799 you know, like I said, the larger you know, enterprise organizations, 333 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:23.680 Oh awesome, and what's on your twenty twenty four romp? But what do 334 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.759 you guys have in store? Yeah, you know, just you know, 335 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:30.880 more of the same, you know, helping protect the ecosystem. You know, 336 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.799 we we were launching some some internal tools for our clients, which we're 337 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.359 really excited about. You know, I would encourage anybody that's you know interested, 338 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:41.559 reach out or happy to give demos you know, security solution center for 339 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.839 for our clients, you know, And that's that's really it. It's really 340 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:48.440 just you know, protecting our clients and you know, just learning about you 341 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.319 know, figuring out what areas of crypto you know, particularly interest our engineers 342 00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:55.720 that we think is going to be you know, the next big thing. 343 00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:57.079 So that way we can kind of dive into it because there's a lot right 344 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:00.720 Like, we're not going to provide service is for everything that's you know Web 345 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:03.799 three. You know, we want to figure out what we're experts in and 346 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:07.519 what we think the market is going to you know, be looking for in 347 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.720 twenty twenty four. So that's what we've been focusing on for sure. Jumping 348 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:12.839 back to the big onin ETF. So I want to get your take on, 349 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.359 you know, as someone who's been here for a long time and worked 350 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:22.400 in many crypto firms throughout the history of the market, what are your thoughts 351 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:25.160 on the bigcoin ETF launch and the inflows and how things have been going. 352 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.319 Yeah, I've been you know, really happy. You know, I think 353 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:32.240 it legitimizes it in some respect for you know, a large segment of the 354 00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:34.200 market, you know, for people that thinking that this is you know made 355 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.920 up you know, bottle caps or you know, the you know, beanie 356 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.079 babies of twenty twenties. You know that you know the fact that we have 357 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.519 some big names in the market offering you know, actual ETFs, and you 358 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.400 know, these create investment vehicles for people that don't want to get into the 359 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.039 messiness of holding crypto itself and how they can just buy an ETF and have 360 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:55.880 somebody else worry about the custody of the assets. So, you know, 361 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:59.759 definitely been very very happy in the launch, in the inflows of capital into 362 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:02.920 it, and just then the sheer number of you know ETF providers, and 363 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.359 then obviously you know, hopefully coming soon this year would be the ethtfs as 364 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:10.599 well. Yeah, and there's there's some issues with the eth ETF. I 365 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:14.799 know there's uh that has been confirmed by the SEC, but it seems they're 366 00:24:14.960 --> 00:24:18.799 wanting to classify etherorem as a security, but the c FDC sees it as 367 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.160 a commodity, yet the SEC had given the green light for the futures. 368 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.799 It's just a mess. And maybe the next question I have for you is, 369 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.960 you know, what do you think about cryptoregulations. Could we see something 370 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.799 this year or next year to give clarity to the entire industry. I think 371 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.160 we're heading towards clarity, you know, whether it comes directly from the SEC, 372 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:40.960 whether it comes from litigation you know, Ripple SEC case, whether it 373 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.160 comes from Congress. I think we're going to get there because I think at 374 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:48.119 the end of the day, I think, you know, there's central banks 375 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.720 all over the world that are you know, looking at CBDCs and you know, 376 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:56.240 in many respects, you know, especially in Singapore, we're doing repail 377 00:24:56.240 --> 00:25:00.880 agreements on MAInet. So I think the US is very cognizant they have to 378 00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.480 do something. Now. The other side of it is, I think we 379 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.319 as a community have to stop shouting at the SEC. And stop shouting at 380 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:11.960 Congress and stop demanding things. You know, their role is to protect us 381 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:14.960 from a safety and soundness perspective. And you know, with all of these 382 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.680 rug pulls and with all of these projects they are getting launched without security, 383 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.440 there is a little bit of truth to them saying like little let's pump the 384 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:25.119 brakes and think things through a little bit more clearly and let's you know, 385 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.160 set up regulation. So I think, you know, us as an industry 386 00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:30.759 have to be a little bit more understanding and stop demanding answers and stop demanding 387 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.559 things. But I do I am very hopeful from you know, conversations that 388 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:38.799 I've had you know, closed door, whether it's with certain regulators that you 389 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:42.839 know there there will be you know, they're they're asking the right questions. 390 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:47.680 They're they're not you know, pushing and away and saying, you know, 391 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:49.720 this isn't something that we're concerned with. A lot of the you know, 392 00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:53.920 in my personal involvement has been you know, from an educational and teaching perspective. 393 00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.359 So I am hopeful and I think we're going to get there. Yeah, 394 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:02.240 for sure. What are your thoughts on n f T s. Do 395 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:06.799 you see that market coming back. Certainly, I see value in the utility 396 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.559 of NFTs in real, real application right where to be, movies, tickets, 397 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:15.079 real estate, whatever it may be. But collectibles, I'm not so 398 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:17.599 much a big fan of collectible as I understand as a market for it. 399 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.680 But what are your thoughts on the evolution of NFTs to be more utility based. 400 00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:23.200 Yeah, you know, listen, I think there is a world for 401 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:26.400 collectibles, you know, just like baseball cards or you know, any particular 402 00:26:26.440 --> 00:26:30.519 piece of art. I think once people realize that that truly is what differentiates 403 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.119 it and makes the value, I think then you know, we'll kind of 404 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.839 go back to I guess just like baseball cards or you know, you know, 405 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.119 you know pieces of art, that there will be certain collectibles via n 406 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.480 f T that are have value to it. But I am really really excited 407 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.480 about the utility aspect of it, you know, just you know, thinking 408 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.480 through like on a personal level. Now airline tickets, you know, the 409 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:53.839 ability to create a secondary market where you know, I really want to go 410 00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:56.799 to Florida this weekend and I'll pay a little bit more to buy somebody, 411 00:26:56.880 --> 00:27:00.480 or I want a particular seat, and there's only middle it's left. But 412 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.720 I really need to take this flight, and I can buy a seat from 413 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.920 somebody and they can make an extra MinC. Like it's creating a new market 414 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:08.200 where people can benefit from this. The airlines can benefit from it. You 415 00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:11.359 can create you know, some residuals that go back to the airline. So 416 00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.279 I think it's it's really cool if you start thinking about the ability for you 417 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:18.359 know, people to sell their assets and you know, to be able to 418 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.599 have this programmable code behind it. So I am. I am excited at 419 00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:25.640 NFTs. And again, it takes, it comes in waves. It takes 420 00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:29.319 you know a lot of projects to start up and fail. Like I know 421 00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:33.279 there's a lot of you know, negativity around you know the Starbucks, you 422 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.640 know closing you know their their NFT platform. But listen that it takes projects 423 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.160 to launch fail for us to understand why something failed for the next project to 424 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.000 launch. So I can't I don't think we should look negatively on projects that 425 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:45.599 fail. Look at that as a learning lesson as to why fail. That 426 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.400 might be too early, it might not have been the project itself. So 427 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:52.920 I'm definitely excited about it. Yeah, you know, a great point you 428 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.440 brought up. I personally think it's it was a combination. I think one 429 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.319 being too early is the main item. I know there were some regulatory thing 430 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:04.880 because the SEC is going after NFT issuers like Stoner Cats and so forth. 431 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.279 But I think to your point, too early to a consumer. Maybe not 432 00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:14.599 too ready for that yet, but they will be eventually. Yeah. I 433 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:15.960 mean, just like on a personal level, you know. You know, 434 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:19.640 a Ticketmaster launched some NFTs and I went to a baseball game with my son 435 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.519 and he got all excited and showed them and I, God, hey, 436 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:23.799 you get an NFT after the game. I said, awesome, I'll send 437 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.200 it to your wallet. I go and Ticketmaster and there's can't send it. 438 00:28:27.680 --> 00:28:30.319 So like, so then you know, at the end of the day, 439 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.680 I have a JPEG sitting in my Ticketmaster account. I can't send it anywhere. 440 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.359 I can't do anything with it. So what was the point of launching 441 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:37.759 that if you can't do anything with it. I couldn't send it to my 442 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.519 son after the game. He can't show his friends at school on his you 443 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.240 know, his wallet. So it was just like a publicity player pr to 444 00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:48.119 say that they're doing something with NFTs. So, you know, I do 445 00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:52.880 think in many respects there's a quick launch to market to grab that pr but 446 00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:55.480 then when people look at what the project is, they kind of roll their 447 00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.559 eyes on a little bit. So I think we're early in some respects. 448 00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:02.759 To your point, Yeah, as you're saying that, I thought of AI, 449 00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:04.559 and I remember it does an AI question. I want to ask you, 450 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:14.759 do you see any rising threats to blockchains and different crypto wallets and services 451 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:22.000 due to AI? Yes? But yes and no. You know, we 452 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:25.759 have to look at So there's a couple of different answers for that. So 453 00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:29.359 I'll give you like not different answers, but like different framing of the answer. 454 00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.480 So the first one is, I think one of the more unrecognized threats 455 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:37.160 of AI is the over reliance on AI to do certain things. So I 456 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:42.720 see a lot of projects today having junior level developers utilizing AI to code and 457 00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:47.599 you know, understanding where AI and the lll ms are learning from, they're 458 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:52.440 learning from information it's being fed and there's a lot of vulnerable code that's out 459 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.119 there. So if you have a junior level developer that's, you know, 460 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.240 please program me a smart contract that does blank, they get the code and 461 00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:02.000 they launch and it works, They're not going to understand that maybe there's you 462 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.759 know, the l ll M is using two year old code as part of 463 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.039 its l ll M that it just now is giving you code with certain vulnerabilities 464 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.960 in it, and also the ability to ask an l ll M to now 465 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:15.000 audit code. It's the same thing too, you know, it's we're at 466 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:18.680 the tip of the sphere, so the l ll M only knows what it's 467 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.400 been fed up to a certain date or what has been fed up to it 468 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.240 is not up to date as far as you know, the particular you know, 469 00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.519 vulnerabilities that we're discovered as of the last few weeks or few months. 470 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:33.480 So I think over reliance and AI from security, over reliance over reliance on 471 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.440 AI. From a developer standpoint, it is definitely a concern. The other 472 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.160 aspect of it too is to understand from a thread actor perspective, it is 473 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:42.960 a tool that thread actors use as well, because you can automate, you 474 00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:48.880 know, reviewing certain codes, certain vulnerabilities, looking for certain things, creating 475 00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.200 some you know, spear phishing campaigns. So it is something that you know, 476 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.519 we are concerned with from the cyberside. Is a tool that the thread 477 00:30:55.559 --> 00:31:00.559 actors are also using themselves. Yeah, we'll have to wait and see how 478 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:04.920 things progress, because AI is going to become more sophisticated, and I know 479 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:11.119 blockchains are being used in a way to combat like de fakes and fake media 480 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:14.680 and so forth. But you know, we'll see what the threats may be 481 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.400 as things progress. What's your outlook for the crypto market? As you know, 482 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.960 Bitcoin seventy back over seventy k this to today, it seems we're still 483 00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:27.960 maybe midway into bull market. What's your outlook? You think it's the same 484 00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.920 for your cycles. We maybe blow off top in twenty twenty five, I 485 00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.799 think. So, you know, listen, at a certain point, it 486 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:37.680 has to has to stabilize, right, you know, this isn't you know, 487 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.440 We're not going to hold a sudden create a thirty trillion dollar market in 488 00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:44.160 BTC. So I think, like, you know, investing in this from 489 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:48.799 a return perspective, yes, but you know, just like gold, gold 490 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:51.359 will increase over the years, but it's not you know, one hundred x 491 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:53.319 in over two years, So it will reach a point in which it does 492 00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:56.920 definitely does stabilized. You know, I don't think we're there yet, So 493 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:00.519 I still think there's a lot of upside potential, and you know Bitcoin, 494 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.119 and then when you look at all of the others like Ethan Solana and you 495 00:32:04.160 --> 00:32:07.160 know whoever else, you know, there's you know, there's a utility to 496 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.119 that asset, so you know, there's there's more of an argument that the 497 00:32:09.160 --> 00:32:14.079 assets are worth something because it's you know, it's it's it's being used for 498 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:20.480 something. So I'm definitely still bullish on the overall market. So yeah, 499 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:22.319 all right, I got some wrap up questions there for you, Furse. 500 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:28.759 If you got your own metaverse, what would the theme be my own metaverse? 501 00:32:28.759 --> 00:32:31.039 I'd probably I'm a big e d M club guy, so I'd probably 502 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.279 create, like, you know, some some of the old clubs I used 503 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:36.720 to go back to back in the day in New York City, so I'd 504 00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:43.599 probably recreate those nice rapid fire questions. Favorite food. Favorite food would be 505 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:49.039 actually Keyline Pie. Favorite musician or band. I'm going to go back to 506 00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.920 d M, so I'm gonna go with my two favorite DJs, Sasha and 507 00:32:51.960 --> 00:32:57.599 Digree. Favorite movie, Uh, definitely would have to be American Psycho, 508 00:32:58.839 --> 00:33:04.240 favorite book Erican Psycho. And when you're not working at Alburn, what are 509 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.039 you doing for fun? I'm hanging out with my kids, going comedy shows. 510 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.200 I'm going to baseball games, sports games. So I love hanging out 511 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:14.960 with my kids and my wife. To obviously awesome David, pleasure chatting with 512 00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.240 you. Looking forward to the future updates around Halburn. Thank you for joining 513 00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.559 me, so having me