1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:08,800 Three, The Thinking Atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,359 --> 00:00:13,679 an idea. The population of atheist in this country is going through the rule, 3 00:00:13,919 --> 00:00:19,440 rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,640 truth, it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand 5 00:00:23,679 --> 00:00:28,800 on a book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 6 00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:32,320 Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness, truth, 7 00:00:32,359 --> 00:00:37,880 beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:46,920 everything, and start thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Said 9 00:00:47,000 --> 00:01:00,960 Andrews. Don't forget to subscribe to my second podcast, available on all major 10 00:01:02,039 --> 00:01:07,000 podcast apps, five minute vignettes about interesting stuff, releasing three times a week. 11 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:15,000 You can subscribe pretty much anywhere, True Stories with Zeth Andrews. There 12 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,680 is a video of the conversation today. That YouTube link is in the description 13 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:29,760 box of the show. I know a lot of atheists, they don't believe 14 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:36,200 in gods, but what about ghosts, the spiritual other, the unknown? 15 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,560 Ah, there are many atheists who do believe. And I find this fascinating, 16 00:01:41,599 --> 00:01:45,319 and I myself would like to believe. It's like that Fox Mulder poster 17 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,359 in the X files. I want to believe, and I love ghostly things, 18 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:55,000 but I want to talk to a what I call you a debunker, 19 00:01:56,159 --> 00:02:00,719 I would not. I would call me a just an investigator. That's all 20 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,760 because, as far as I'm concerned, debunking is the result of an investigation. 21 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,199 That's when you get all your data together and you come to your conclusion 22 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,639 based on that data, and it says, hey, you know what, 23 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,840 the original claim is false. And that's what debunking is, taking the falseness 24 00:02:14,879 --> 00:02:20,000 out of a claim. So so you say debunker, it's essentially you're broadcasting 25 00:02:20,039 --> 00:02:23,159 that I'm front loading that I think this is bunk where you want to be 26 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:25,639 more of a neutral observer. Yes, you know, it's it's no different 27 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,319 than calling someone a believer. If you just go in and say, well, 28 00:02:29,319 --> 00:02:31,159 you're just a believer, and I get the same thing, you're just 29 00:02:31,199 --> 00:02:37,080 a debunker. Those terms are automatically setting a bias. It's already setting you 30 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:38,719 up that you're on one side or the other. And like you said, 31 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:42,520 I just want to go in neutral. I want to be Switzerland, you 32 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,919 know, go in there. It's telling somebody, though, Kenny, I 33 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:47,400 was telling somebody that I was going to talk to you, and they believe 34 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:52,080 in spirits and stuff, and they were like, well, you know, 35 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,479 they're not going to find anything, because I mean they may say that they're 36 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:59,159 open and they just want to find evidence if there is, and they're genuinely 37 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,120 curious, but you know, deep down there they think it's all a bunch 38 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:06,360 of crap. And I'm sure you've heard that. Yeah, yeah, you 39 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,520 know what. And for those people, I say, you're making an assumption 40 00:03:09,879 --> 00:03:14,800 for me, you're speaking for me, and you really can't do that because 41 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,159 I know me better than you do. So for me, I'm fascinated with 42 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,919 the entire idea of the paranormal ghosts and monsters and UFOs everything that goes along 43 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:29,360 with that. I'm fascinating and I would absolutely love to find something genuine and 44 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,520 like this is proof of the afterlife. That would be great. I would 45 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:38,719 love that. Unfortunately, every investigation I go and does not conclude that way, 46 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,159 and it's not because of me. It's because that's where the data leads 47 00:03:43,199 --> 00:03:45,840 me. Now, why are you stealing my joy? When I go to 48 00:03:45,879 --> 00:03:51,520 the Conjuring movies and I see the Warrens, they just seem so real incredible 49 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,680 to me. I'll get to the Warrens. Really, I'll get to them. 50 00:03:54,719 --> 00:03:58,439 No, I'm just I'm full of crap. I'm just I'm just blowing 51 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:02,000 smoke. Let's do a formal introduction. Kenny Biddle. You may have seen 52 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,199 his work as featured in Skeptical Inquiry. You're still running the blog. I 53 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,039 know you've got the podcast. Kind of tell everybody who you are, so 54 00:04:11,159 --> 00:04:15,040 yeah, right now, my current position is the chief investigator for the Committee 55 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:19,680 for Skeptical Inquiry, and before that, I and still do. I host 56 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,759 a show called The Skeptical Help Bar every Friday night. It's a live show. 57 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:29,279 I also do videos for this Center for Inquiry YouTube channel called Ghosts in 58 00:04:29,319 --> 00:04:32,560 the Machine, and that's videos. Basically it's the same idea of my articles 59 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,319 in Skeptical Inquiry. It's basically taking like ghost hunt in equipment or I take 60 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,879 it apart, or I go out to locations that are alleged to be haunted 61 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,360 or have a big foot and you know you follow me along. I take 62 00:04:44,399 --> 00:04:48,120 you along on the adventure, and I do lectures. I've spoken at science 63 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,839 conferences such as Psicon about solving mysteries. I have a whole strategy that I 64 00:04:51,879 --> 00:04:57,279 followed that I try to teach during workshops, and that's it. I mean, 65 00:04:57,319 --> 00:04:59,800 I started as a ghost hunter. I was a ghost hunter in a 66 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:04,680 the late nineties early two thousands, and I transitioned over to the skeptical side 67 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,439 of the fence. Come on, Kenny, you can't throw that out. 68 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:12,240 So I mean, are you like those guys at ghost Adventures for your Like, 69 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,279 the temperature just dropped fifteen degrees, I saw an orb in the camera. 70 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:19,480 And the reason I'm doing the accent is because I have been And this 71 00:05:19,519 --> 00:05:23,319 is not an insult to you, Kenny, but I have come to the 72 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:29,560 conclusion that the people, the experts who go on television to investigate are just 73 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:34,000 as thick as a post like these are the least qualified people possible. What's 74 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:39,079 a ghost hunt look like in your ghostly past? Honestly, I mean, 75 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,399 it's embarrassing now to talk about it, but it's important to talk about it. 76 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,439 So yeah, I was basically what you saw on TV. I went 77 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,399 in with gadgets that I honestly didn't know how to use, and I sat 78 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,600 in the dark. I talked to the dark. I asked questions, thinking 79 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,399 ghosts were all over the place. I thought anytime I got a shiver, 80 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,959 like felt a cold spot, that it was a ghost. That pictures of 81 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:08,519 little balls of light in my images, or smoky substance going across the scene 82 00:06:08,759 --> 00:06:12,639 I thought was evidence of a ghost. All of this stuff, I was 83 00:06:12,759 --> 00:06:17,439 right there with you. I got my start right before the ghost hunting shows 84 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,480 came on the air. Ghost Hunters was actually the first show, first modern 85 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:26,439 reality show that would come on the air. And I grew up with things 86 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,600 like in Search of Sightings and shows like that where they presented all these mysteries. 87 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:34,720 So I wanted to do that, And for me, I called a 88 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:39,040 local group that I found the first time I got a computer, back in 89 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,120 the nineties, when you know, like the Internet was a brand new thing. 90 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:46,199 I called up a group. They said, yeah, come on out. 91 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,240 And my first ghost hunt was a cemetery, of all things, because 92 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,600 you know, by the time that people get there there, they are already 93 00:06:53,639 --> 00:06:57,519 dead. So I don't know why cemeteries are haunted, but I didn't know 94 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,439 any better. So come on, I mean, I've seen those shows where 95 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,560 they take you to one of the most I don't know, creepy. Please 96 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,920 a cemetery. It's an old abandoned asylum, a prison, with the electric 97 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,000 chair or whatever. I mean, by the time you walk in the door, 98 00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:16,279 aren't you just you're ramped, right, You're already scared. Before you're 99 00:07:16,319 --> 00:07:20,680 scared, right, exactly, You've already read the stories you I mean, 100 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,720 if you look behind me, there's tons of books back here, and many 101 00:07:25,759 --> 00:07:29,480 of them are regional ghost story books that you can pick up at any bookstore 102 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,680 or any tourist trap in the area. So as a ghost hunter, that's 103 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,319 what I used to do all the time. As soon as I got there, 104 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,639 it's like, all right, what can I buy? And buy the 105 00:07:38,639 --> 00:07:42,079 books, read the stories, and that's where I want to go. So 106 00:07:42,439 --> 00:07:46,399 when you're arriving at the front door, you already believe the place is haunted. 107 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,759 You already believe that all the gadgets that you brought with you do something 108 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:56,199 either communicate with ghosts or capture ghosts or detect their presence. And then when 109 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,439 you gather everything up, you're so hyped up. It's like you you drank 110 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,439 like a dozen red bulls all at once, and you're walking into this building 111 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,759 and you're like, yeah, I can't wait. I mean, I can't 112 00:08:05,759 --> 00:08:11,160 tell you how many times I see people preach that I can't wait to get 113 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:15,759 all these evidence tonight, Like they're not even there yet, and they already 114 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,839 believe that they're going to get this big, huge body of evidence that the 115 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:22,680 place is haunted. So yeah, you walk in, you set things up. 116 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:24,920 You're like, oh, you know, I'm on a ghost hunt. 117 00:08:26,079 --> 00:08:28,680 I'm in the dark, and I'm with a bunch of people that I barely 118 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,559 know, and that's gotta be a bonding experience. Though. You're all in 119 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,120 a box hoole together, right and your tribe all of a sudden, Yeah, 120 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,480 you're you're You're part of a group, you know, and everybody shares 121 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:45,000 their beliefs, and as soon as something weird happens. It's not during my 122 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,759 ghost hunting days and even today when I go out, because a lot of 123 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:52,840 times I go and with like pay to play events where I pay a few 124 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,320 dollars and I attend an event, a ghost hunting event with a group, 125 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,879 and they teach you all the stuff that they do. And when you're sitting 126 00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:05,480 there in the dark and something weird happens, it's not usually a hey, 127 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,960 let's investigate and see what caused that noise or that shadow down the end of 128 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,679 the hall. It's I think that's a ghost, and then everyone else times 129 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,320 in Oh, I think so too. Oh you know what, that's where 130 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,000 they'll ghost is supposed to be seen, like people have seen that before, 131 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,559 and they justify it. They convinced themselves that what they experienced was a ghost 132 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:28,240 without actually investigating it. And that's what I did. I used to do 133 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:31,799 that. I mean, truth be told. I just I didn't investigate. 134 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,519 I didn't fact check, I didn't check up on what I was doing, 135 00:09:35,639 --> 00:09:39,399 and I didn't bother to find a source. I just believed. And that 136 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:41,759 was my problem. You've mentioned the gadgets a few times, and I want 137 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:46,799 to talk about the tools of the trade, but I don't want to put 138 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:50,240 you on the spot. You don't have to answer. But when I was 139 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:56,039 watching The Scariest Places on Earth and Ghost Hunters, etc. I just couldn't 140 00:09:56,039 --> 00:10:00,200 help but think that one of the production assistants ran in the other room them 141 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,639 and through like a piece of lead pipe on a concrete floor to make a 142 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:07,919 sound, right, And I staged, Come on, did you ever get 143 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:11,360 the vibe that you know, someone yank in our chain? Yeah? I 144 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,000 mean I can't speak for all of them, and I again, like I 145 00:10:16,039 --> 00:10:18,960 have not been on set. I'm not wanted to get invited onto the ghost 146 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:22,840 hunting shows. I don't know why. I mean, I'm always available, 147 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,759 strange, but yeah, I would see there's certain scenarios where like, well, 148 00:10:28,799 --> 00:10:35,519 that just looks staged. It very much looks staged because one camera placement. 149 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,840 Camera placement is always in the right spot at just the right time to 150 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:45,679 capture exactly what they want to capture and nothing more. So that's always a 151 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,759 red flag for me. But I don't know if they're all staged. I 152 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:54,399 think there's a lot of misinterpretation. I also think that in some cases, 153 00:10:54,759 --> 00:11:00,120 maybe with certain shows ghost adventures, that they maybe a two way radio to 154 00:11:00,159 --> 00:11:03,080 make some of these gadgets go off. A few of them do operate off 155 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,200 of radio frequency or are affected by a radio frequency. So if you have 156 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,039 a like a two way radio that you picked up at Walmart, you can 157 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:15,720 go like in the basement or a floor above or in the next room and 158 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,960 key it up and wave it around and it'll make some of these devices light 159 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:24,360 up or beep. And you know, nothing excites a ghost under more than 160 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:30,919 when a gadget lights up and beats. Doesn't matter what the measurement is it's 161 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,399 as long as it beats tools of the trade. Now I've seen the ev 162 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:41,080 stuff and the white noise, I don't know what doing a very poor job 163 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:45,759 of. I mean, tell me what the tools are as a hunter of 164 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,720 ghosts. So you have a bunch of tools, I mean pretty much. 165 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:56,679 The standard is a EMF meter, so that basically stands for electromagnetic field meter. 166 00:11:56,039 --> 00:12:00,879 And these meters are actual tools. I mean you can get them in 167 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,799 like home depot, or you can get more sophisticated and accurate ones from science 168 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:11,039 websites. But they measure the strength of an electromagnetic field. So like anything 169 00:12:11,039 --> 00:12:15,360 electrical will give off a field when powers flowing through a line, you'll get 170 00:12:15,399 --> 00:12:18,200 an electromagnetic field from that that wire, and you can read that you can 171 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,279 measure to strength of it. And I think that is really based off the 172 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,679 pk E meter from Ghostbusters. I honestly think that's where it came from, 173 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,399 because you see, I mean Ghostbusters was a big influence and you can actually 174 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,679 see you like above my head here there's a PKE meter on the shelf. 175 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,759 But when Ghostbusters came out, that was in nineteen eighty four, and that 176 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:43,279 was before you saw these reality ghost hunting shows, and not many people used 177 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:48,360 gadgets. Of course, you had like SBR. They were using practical stuff 178 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:54,519 like rope and powder and candles, stuff to check four footprints and airflow through 179 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,440 a hallway or out a window, practical stuff like that. It wasn't until 180 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,279 after Ghostbusters came out that all these gadgets started peering with groups where they're like, 181 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:07,000 oh, what can we grab that's handheld that we can walk around with 182 00:13:07,279 --> 00:13:09,879 and that'll give us readings. So I think, yeah, the EMF meter 183 00:13:11,039 --> 00:13:13,679 was the first one that came up, and it really doesn't do much. 184 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,000 There's another one called the rempod and I don't remember what rem r em stands 185 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:22,879 for, but it's it's not anything real. We're technical. I think it's 186 00:13:22,919 --> 00:13:28,200 more of a made up word, but basically it's a junior Thermin device. 187 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:31,679 So a thuramin is a musical device. It works without touching it. It 188 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:35,320 has two antennas. One controls the volume, one controls the pitch or the 189 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,039 tone of the sound coming out of it, and it's a really cool machine. 190 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,960 You don't actually touch it to play it. You just get closer and 191 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:56,879 closer to the two antennas. And it creates sounds. So a junior THEURAMIN 192 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,360 is a novelty version of it. It's based electronics toy and this is used 193 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,240 inside usually three D print bodies, and it lights up. It either plays 194 00:14:07,279 --> 00:14:11,840 beeps at different tones or some music that it plays. You can switch between 195 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,440 the two. But the closer anything that's conductive gets close to it, it 196 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:20,240 starts making noises and it starts lighting up. This is one of the things 197 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,559 that can also be used with a two way radio. I can make those 198 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,919 things go off from like two or three rooms away, so it's very easy 199 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,080 to manipulate, just like the K two meter. What else we got. 200 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:35,759 We got motion sensors, we got temperature guns that read the infrared energy coming 201 00:14:35,799 --> 00:14:39,200 off of surface objects. And we have ghost boxes. Oh, ghost boxes 202 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:46,440 are very popular because you know ghosts, but these are broken radios. They 203 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,519 are literally broken radios. So what that does is sweep through the AM or 204 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:56,960 FM band, So it sweeps through and instead of stopping on a station that's 205 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:03,080 coming in clear, it continues to cycle through. So the disabled the feature 206 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,759 where it stops on the next available station and it just cycles through, so 207 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:11,279 you're getting snippets of each local station. Coming through, so you can hear 208 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,559 bits and pieces of music, news commercials, any kind of radio broadcast, 209 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,720 and ghost hunters will make a habit of sitting around in a room with one 210 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,559 of these boxes going off, and honestly, it's so annoying when you have 211 00:15:26,679 --> 00:15:30,240 to hear this, When you have to listen to this for like more than 212 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:35,480 thirty seconds, it's so annoying. Is there anybody here with us? We 213 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:37,360 have family members here and we're here to be friendly. We just wanted to 214 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,480 come say hi and see if there's anybody here that wanted to say hi or 215 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:56,000 talk or tell us something. They ask questions thinking that they are communicating with 216 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:02,879 a ghost and that somehow a ghost can manipulate the radio frequencies coming into that 217 00:16:02,919 --> 00:16:11,720 box and create words. I don't know how it, Kenny, it manufactures 218 00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:14,960 the box? Like is that ever? A question like where did this come 219 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,039 from? Who put it together? What are the components? How do we 220 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,559 know it works? So the first one that I remember seeing was the radio 221 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:26,600 shack hack, and it was basically a radio shack radio. It was a 222 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:30,840 white radio, yeah, and you opened it up and there was one connection 223 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:34,840 in the back where you snipped it and that connector was the one that controlled 224 00:16:34,919 --> 00:16:40,039 when it started sweeping through the station, it would stop at the next available 225 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,919 station. So when you snip this little connector, it stopped that action, 226 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,279 so it would continually sweep through it. And I have I have one out 227 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:52,200 in the display case here. Basically it came from that people were plugging speakers 228 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:53,240 in and they were going, hey, you know, can you tell me 229 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:56,639 your name? And they were hearing different things, and you're hearing you're basically 230 00:16:56,679 --> 00:17:03,320 hearing phonetics. You're hearing these different saying and when you're primed to hear something, 231 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,000 when you're expecting to hear an answer, such as a name, that's 232 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,519 what you're going to pick out. So in all this static and all this 233 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:17,359 clutter of different radio stations, and again you're talking about like commercials for furniture, 234 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,400 for vacations for you have news broadcasts that have politics and sports, and 235 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,720 you know the local murders that happen. All this stuff is going through this 236 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,079 radio and coming out the speakers. So if you say, hey, what's 237 00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:33,720 your name, I guarantee you're going to hear something that sounds like a name. 238 00:17:34,519 --> 00:17:38,079 It's something like backward masking. During the Satanic panic. You know, 239 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,319 the pattern seekers in us are going to find something, and then we're going 240 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,319 to find something that validates what we expected to find in the first play exactly. 241 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:51,000 There's even a problem where the conversation switches depending on what the radio says. 242 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,279 And this is what blows my mind. You can have a group of 243 00:17:53,279 --> 00:17:59,720 people ask something like hey, what's your name, and somebody will say, 244 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:04,160 well, I just heard chair. I just heard chair, and instead of 245 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,680 saying or, the logical thing to me would be like, well, that's 246 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,119 not answering my question. I asked for a name, the conversation will switch 247 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,240 and say, well you have a chair? What chair? That chair in 248 00:18:17,279 --> 00:18:21,319 the corner? Did you die in that chair? And that's it, Like 249 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:26,559 the conversation just shift. It completely shifted from what they were asking to something 250 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,160 different because the radio told them. And I'm just picture you watching some of 251 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:36,839 these shows, just vibrating in your chair like you're on the ch like what's 252 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,319 wrong with you? Ask this question? What do you do? I just 253 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,759 picture that you're doing that, dude. People still use divining rods because I 254 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:45,200 was scanning the other day and sobody. First of all, for those who 255 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,839 don't know what a divining rod is explain what it is and what it's supposed 256 00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:52,960 to do and why it's why it is bullshit. Yeah, I'll say it, 257 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,839 go ahead, go ahead. So defining rod Originally they were used to 258 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,680 find minal rules or water and people used a divining rod, but it was 259 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,519 a stick. It was a forked stick that they picked up from a tree. 260 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,319 I think it was usually like birch or something like that. But they 261 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:12,759 go around and it held it in a weird way, like in a way 262 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,880 that promoted the stick wanting to go down because you can't hold the position. 263 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,960 And if you look at older photos you'll see like the way they're holding it, 264 00:19:21,079 --> 00:19:26,440 and it's very uncomfortable, very awkward, and very just dumb to put 265 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,799 it bluntly, But basically, people thought they could find water, sources of 266 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:37,319 water underground or minerals. And there's there's a historical context with this, and 267 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:40,440 forgive me, it escapes me now. But the first person that wrote about 268 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,119 it, I think was in the seventeen hundreds, and he wrote a manual 269 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:48,039 about finding minerals and he touched on the idea of divining rods and dowsing, 270 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:53,279 and actually the first paragraph of his description is used to promote divining rods as 271 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,839 you know, something that's real. But if you actually read on the rest 272 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,759 of the paragraphs, you find out that the the author just dismisses it. 273 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:04,720 He's like, no, it doesn't work. And he explains that why because 274 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,400 you can actually find vegetation and pretty much anywhere you dig you're going to find 275 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,480 water. So he explains it, but that part is usually left out modern 276 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:18,839 times, people use two usually like either brass rods in holders in handles so 277 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:25,400 they swivel easier, So they are making it easier to get an anomaly. 278 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:33,640 Here, can you point me towards the nearest buried silver? See how that 279 00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:38,440 both the rods are pointing in that direction. That's where we're going to walk, 280 00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:45,680 and the rods have crossed. Look what happens when I step back the 281 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:52,480 rods open. The rods are crossed. Now I'm going to walk forward. 282 00:20:52,519 --> 00:21:02,160 See what happens to the rods They've opened, so we know around this area 283 00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:06,279 it's buried silver. So they're in the handles, they're two of them, 284 00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:11,000 and they usually ask questions of ghosts. They think they can communicate with ghosts 285 00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,400 with this because they ask yes or no questions and if the rods cross, 286 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,319 that's a yes, and if they split apart that's a no. Or you 287 00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:23,880 can ask for direction and the rods apparently go back and forth. So that's 288 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:29,640 basically what I see dowsing rods used for divining rods. There, it's interchangeable 289 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:34,680 divining rods. Dowsing rods ato my subconsciously maneuvering. I mean, because a 290 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,759 lot of these people I think are sincere. Oh look it is leaning left, 291 00:21:38,839 --> 00:21:42,160 it's right, it's crossing, and I don't sense and who really knows, 292 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,920 but I don't sense that they're in on it. Yeah, well, 293 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,160 I mean it's a juggle. It really is because some people I just flat 294 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,960 out think they know exactly what they're doing. Other people, yes, they 295 00:21:56,039 --> 00:22:00,200 don't realize what they're doing, and until you show them, they believe that 296 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:03,880 something is manipulating in rods. Some time ago, a friend of mine named 297 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,119 Mit Silverstein made a simple device and I have it here. So this is 298 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:12,359 a simple device for testing dowsing rods. It's two acrylic blocks and there's a 299 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:17,079 bubble level up there. You can see that that's on the lower thing and 300 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,079 the handles here. So these handles are the original handles for the dowsing rods, 301 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,319 it's what comes with them, so they are locked into the blocks, 302 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:30,519 so now I cannot manipulate them independently, which is great. And if you 303 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:33,079 try to tilt the whole thing first, I'll see you tilting it like a 304 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,400 steering wheel, so that's an obvious red flag. But if you tilt it 305 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,039 in any way, the bubble level will let me know that you're moving it. 306 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,559 So this locks it in place, won't let you manipulate them. And 307 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,559 when I use these, I've used these for years now, and everyone that's 308 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:52,920 tried these has not been able to get the dowsing rods to work. So 309 00:22:52,039 --> 00:22:56,119 for the audio podcast, listener and check me if this is right. But 310 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,240 essentially, it's a device that removes, at least to a degree, a 311 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,119 great degree, the human element. Yea rods kind of pivot on top. 312 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,480 You aren't actually holding the rods directly at the pivot portion directly in your hand, 313 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,440 and there's a level on the device to make sure that you're not sort 314 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,039 of rotating at like a steering wheel to make the rods move. Is that 315 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,079 close enough, Kenny, Yes, that's correct, that's correct. And there's 316 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,920 another method too that I use when people are convinced that they are still doing 317 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,880 something the vine. Let's say, I usually set up a video camera at 318 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,759 the level of their elbows, because usually when you're you're using dousing rods, 319 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,599 you have your arms bent like this and your forearms are straight out and you're 320 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:41,000 holding the rods. So when I set up a video camera level with their 321 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,359 elbows, I get the full I'm looking directly down their arms, and I 322 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:51,759 take video of them as they are asking questions and getting responses, and then 323 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,400 we watch the video played back at at least double the speed. So when 324 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,400 you double the speed, you get the sea. All the movements of their 325 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:06,440 hands are greatly exaggerated, and it shows them that they are not holding their 326 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,359 hands still, that they are manipulating them, even if they don't do it 327 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,359 on purpose, but they are manipulating them. And once I've done that, 328 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,000 for the most part, people realize, like crap, it's me, which 329 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:21,920 is good, I mean they realize it. Unfortunately, most of them still 330 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,279 continue to do it because you know, they get paid. Kenny Biddle stealing 331 00:24:27,319 --> 00:24:33,599 the joy, robbing us of the awe and wonder of possibility out there. 332 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,440 He just takes your dreams and smashes them to the ground. Sad sad man. 333 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:41,799 I'm sure you probably heard some of that, Like I want to believe 334 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,720 it's probably a great way to put it, like why would you want to 335 00:24:45,799 --> 00:24:48,039 kill this in me? You know, I'm sure you hear some of that. 336 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,039 You know what. I find joy in solving that mystery. I used 337 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:56,160 to find excitement from being in spooky place and going, oh, you know, 338 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,160 I think that's a ghost. I think I saw a shadow that probably 339 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,160 is a spirit from somebody from like, you know, three hundred years ago 340 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,000 or something like that. I used to get excited about that, And then 341 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:07,480 the more I learned, the more I realized, wow, you know what, 342 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:11,279 there's a reason that I'm seeing this or there's a reason I'm getting these 343 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:17,160 on photographs. And I found that more exciting than the alleged ghost part. 344 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,880 I love going into a place and solving the mystery, figuring out what actually 345 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,240 happened, and recreating it and saying, look, we solved this. We 346 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:30,480 Scooby dude this. I mean, that's what better thing. I mean for 347 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,240 somebody that grew up with Scooby do Like that's the ultimate goal. I'm reminded 348 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:37,400 of that line by Hitch and I totally agree what he was talking about. 349 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,400 Once you've seen the wonder of the natural world, why would you ever be 350 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,519 impressed by a burning bush? You know exactly? And the psychology of belief 351 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:53,160 and honestly, the real world is wonderful enough. More with Kenny Biddle in 352 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,079 just a second, I want to talk about Ada and Lorraine Warren, best 353 00:25:57,079 --> 00:26:03,839 known for the Conjuring Films, Real people who investigated real ghosts. Oh, 354 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:18,359 we're gonna get into that next. I'm talking here with Kenny Biddle, probably 355 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:26,000 best known for his work with Skeptical Inquirer. He is a paranormal investigator more 356 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:32,799 than twenty years investigating gadgets and haunted houses and psychics and evidence quote unquote evidence 357 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,799 of the after life. I want to come back to the Warrens, I 358 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,240 confess, Kenny. I'm I like the Conjuring films. Well, I like 359 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,680 the first one except for the last ten minutes. I mean I enjoyed it 360 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:49,599 like Hyde and Clap scared the shit out of me. Okay, I took 361 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:56,519 the journey, but the Warrens right. Whenever people invoke the Warrens, I 362 00:26:56,599 --> 00:27:00,440 do die a little bit inside. Can you tell us who the Warrens are 363 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,799 and why people care, Well, I can tell you who they are why 364 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:11,039 they care. I don't know. Maybe maybe that's a poor phrasing of the 365 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,519 question, but I'm struck by them, right, I mean, I think 366 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,359 most of this started around Amityville, is that correct? Right? You're talking 367 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,400 the seventies, where, well, we didn't have the internet. It wasn't 368 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,160 easy to look up for information, so it really took time. You had 369 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:33,480 to go to historical societies or libraries and newspaper actually the buildings where you had 370 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:34,839 to go and research. So there was a lot of work. It was 371 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:41,839 very easy to pull off a hoax or just to perpetuate or promote a hoax. 372 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,319 But back then, yeah, we had the Warrens. They actually got 373 00:27:45,319 --> 00:27:51,599 their start with little cases where they thought everything was demonic, everything was demonic 374 00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:56,519 and ed and Lorraine Warren. They were a couple, they were married couple, 375 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,599 they had a museum. But I think they really started big with the 376 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,240 Annabelle story. So apparently they had this aparliament. There was an apartament that 377 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:08,799 was being haunted by a demon. Because that's the only thing that comes up 378 00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:14,200 when they're involved. It was a demon and it manipulated this raggedy Ann doll 379 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,279 and moved it around, and that was the story. The doll itself is 380 00:28:18,319 --> 00:28:22,440 not haunted or possessed. It was just this demon was using this doll to 381 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,839 play around and that became famous. It made the news, and I think 382 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:30,640 it really propelled them into like the public eye. And then you had things 383 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,559 like the Amityville House. Then you had the Conjuring House, which is a 384 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:40,400 famous movie. But I guess from a standpoint of watching a film, it 385 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,880 was entertaining. You could watch it as a horror film, that's fine, 386 00:28:44,079 --> 00:28:47,200 But because it was based on a true story and I used that loosely, 387 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,039 then I look at it in a different light and I have a problem with 388 00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:55,759 it. So edul Lorraine Warren again, were they called themselves demonologists every time 389 00:28:55,759 --> 00:28:57,640 they went to a location. As soon as it popped up in the news, 390 00:28:57,839 --> 00:29:02,720 as soon as there was some inkling that there was weird stuff going on 391 00:29:02,799 --> 00:29:06,000 in a house, they showed up. Whether it was the Conjuring House, 392 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,480 Amityville, Endfield case over in the UK, there was one in Connecticut. 393 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,279 But they were there, and they weren't there to help. As far as 394 00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:18,160 I'm concerned, they weren't there to help. They were there to exploit. 395 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,319 And they went in, they got a story, they added to the story, 396 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,200 they embellished the hell out of the story, and then went on a 397 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,039 lecture series and talked about it. So they charged people to come to their 398 00:29:30,119 --> 00:29:33,960 lectures. They would hire a writer to write a book about that story, 399 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:40,039 regardless of what the family thought. They would get permission from the family to 400 00:29:40,039 --> 00:29:42,400 write about it, with the idea that they were going to help, that 401 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,960 the warrants were going to help them. And in every case, if you 402 00:29:47,039 --> 00:29:49,279 talk to the families, they did not help. All they did was to 403 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:55,559 exploit. So to me, and this is my personal opinion, that's my 404 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,920 disclaimer, they were horrible people that exploited others for their own gain. And 405 00:30:00,039 --> 00:30:04,200 I think they're terrible, and I and anybody that follows them and thinks they're 406 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:08,279 legitimate, I think you need to rethink your entire life because they're just horrible 407 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:14,759 people. But now you segue us into the more insidious part of this. 408 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,119 I mean, you know, you drive over near area of fifty one and 409 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,960 you see the gift shop and you go in and get the alien figurine. 410 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,880 Okay, great, whatever, knock yourself out. I mean I see for 411 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,440 those watching on video, I see a lot of your office is like a 412 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:30,839 story that would take six months to tell because you have just so much stuff. 413 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,480 It is just one corner. The first step, Kenny, is to 414 00:30:36,559 --> 00:30:41,119 admit you have a problem. I have a problem. I'm well aware of 415 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:48,200 it and I love it. But it's big business and people selling hope. 416 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,720 You know that type of thing. You can speak to your dead grandmother or 417 00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:56,480 the spouse or child you lost. All we need is on and a thousand 418 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,599 dollars of your hard one or hard earned money kind of thing. Let's talk 419 00:30:59,599 --> 00:31:02,359 about the dark side of this stuff. What do you want to talk about. 420 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:04,400 I want to talk about the grifters. I want to talk about the 421 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,359 people who were saying I will come to your home, or you come here, 422 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,200 we'll have a seance. I have a crystal ball. You know. 423 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,000 It's just sort of that paranormal for profit angle that you started us down. 424 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,200 Well. I see a lot more with psychics and mediums, not so much 425 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,680 with ghost hunters. Ghost hunters, I guess on the positive side, they 426 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:27,160 don't usually charge for anything. They are happy to come to your house and 427 00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:32,559 you know, hang out for a few hours and enjoy the darkness and talk 428 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:34,559 to themselves. I mean, did you pay I know you recently stayed at 429 00:31:34,599 --> 00:31:37,440 a ghost house. Did you pay a fee to spend the night there? 430 00:31:37,839 --> 00:31:42,160 Yes? Yeah, So in those instances where I pay, usually like twenty 431 00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:47,440 thirty forty dollars. Most of the time the money goes back to the location. 432 00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:51,960 So if it's a historical location that is in need of repair or something, 433 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:53,960 usually that's a benefit to that. The money goes back to that. 434 00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:56,319 Well. I'm going to be clear too, I'm not setting you it because 435 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,200 I've admitted in the past and I would still do this. I would pay 436 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:02,759 one hundred bucks or whatever to stay the night in a ghost house or whatever. 437 00:32:02,799 --> 00:32:07,319 I don't see that that's not the same category as someone coming in and 438 00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:13,000 I don't know being what Susan Gerbeck called the grief vampire. That's a different 439 00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:15,160 thing, right, Yeah, yeah, I mean at there's places like you 440 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,759 just said, I would pay just to be there because I like going to 441 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:22,640 places that are alleged to be horne. It's the places that I've heard about 442 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,000 all my life. I would pay to stay overnight. I mean that's just 443 00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:29,880 what I do. I also pay to go to movie locations because I like 444 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:35,000 that. I'm a big nerd. But when it comes to charging for profit, 445 00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:37,319 and again, like Susan Gerbeck, that was a great way to bring 446 00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:42,839 it up about psychics and grief vampires that come in and claim that they're going 447 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,599 to contact your loved ones, and they do it for a fee, and 448 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,799 usually it's an expensive fee, but they give this impression that they're talking to 449 00:32:53,240 --> 00:33:00,920 ghosts, and I just I find that very deceitful and journey because you're exploiting 450 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:06,359 a person's grief. Because if somebody lost a child, especially if it's a 451 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,000 child or a loved one like their wife or husband or partner, and you're 452 00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:13,839 you're saying, hey, you know what, I have this little bit of 453 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,680 hope here. I can talk to your your deceased loved one, you know, 454 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,559 four nine five, I can do this, And in that moment the 455 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:28,640 person is grieving, there's desperation. They desperately want to talk to their loved 456 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,160 one again. You know, maybe they want to apologize or something for something 457 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,559 they did. Maybe they want to know that it's okay, you know, 458 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,559 they're all right in whatever after life they're in. So they pay this money 459 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,240 and the psychic or medium. Usually it's a medium because that's what you know 460 00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:51,119 that, that's the definition mediums the difference. So mediums are the medium before 461 00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:54,440 between the living and the dead. They are the like interpreter. I guess 462 00:33:54,599 --> 00:34:00,359 you can call it, yes, where psychics are ones that claim to be 463 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,519 able to see into the past, or see into the future or make predictions. 464 00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:09,360 If mediums could really talk to the dead, we should have no unsolved 465 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:15,159 murder cases. We should have no missing persons. We just shouldn't, and 466 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:21,239 we do. We have thousands of kids every year that go missing and or 467 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:27,039 are killed by various people, kidnappings and whatnot, and their murders go unsolved. 468 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,599 But yet these mediums claim that, Hey, for nine five, I 469 00:34:31,639 --> 00:34:35,400 can talk to your dead and glob one and tell you like how much they 470 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,360 love you. Yeah, it's I'll never tell you where where the pot of 471 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,119 gold is buried, for sure. It's funny, Kenny. I don't know. 472 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,639 Maybe I'm showing my hand here, but knowing what I know about my 473 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:52,119 former evangelical past, I feel like that knowledge if I wanted to use it 474 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,760 in a malicious way, or if I wanted to become a grifter, I 475 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,559 could use my knowledge of how the system works to grift this system. I 476 00:35:00,599 --> 00:35:04,719 could go back and say I was wrong, I found Jesus and then hit 477 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,760 the circuit right at the end of an offering plate, and I could totally 478 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,239 cash in because I know the system. I look at you when I think 479 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,920 you're a guy who was seen behind the curtain and you know how the toys 480 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:21,400 work. Yet, if you were not a person of morals, you could 481 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,039 use that knowledge to cash in. Man, you could play that, you 482 00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:29,639 could you could literally feel it'd be like printing money in my mind. I 483 00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:31,119 don't know. Can you ever think about that? Like what if I wasn't 484 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:37,559 an honest guy? I do every time I look at it, like investigate 485 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:43,519 a gadget that's supposed to be talking or detecting ghosts, because I mean some 486 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:47,159 of them, most of the gadgets that I take apart, there's maybe five 487 00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:52,159 to ten dollars worth of parts in there, and maybe in a half hour 488 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,880 or an hour of putting it together, not a lot. And they sell 489 00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:02,000 this stuff for two, three four dollars each and they solved tons of them. 490 00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:06,119 If I went onto a TV show and just said, hey, you 491 00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:09,880 know what I'm I'm an expert. I'm an expert in the paranormal and just 492 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,639 said, yeah, you know like that that it probably is old Uncle Fred 493 00:36:14,679 --> 00:36:17,920 haunting the attic. And and this ball of light that's not a dust particle, 494 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,360 that's not a bug, No, that's a spirit. And if I 495 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,519 kept doing that and maybe you know, made my own hair all crazy like 496 00:36:24,559 --> 00:36:29,239 the crazy hair guy on the alien shows, you know, did guest spots, 497 00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:31,199 or if I if I said, hey, you know, because I've 498 00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:36,880 done cold readings many times, I've done cold readings in college classes. When 499 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,199 I've lectured college classes, humanist groups, I've just launched into the cold readings 500 00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:45,559 and been able to figure out like someone's aunt passed away from a heart attack 501 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:50,360 or something like that. And I mean, I'm not doing anything special, 502 00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:53,679 and I honestly I think I suck at it, but I still get through 503 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:59,119 it and convinced them that I'm real. So yeah, every time I do 504 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:02,679 that, I think I could be rich. I could be rich. I 505 00:37:02,679 --> 00:37:07,159 could have I could I could make some good money and I could hit the 506 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,639 road. We could we could call the two, we could broadcast our own 507 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,320 channel and we could just go and it'd be Goden ghost baby. Well you 508 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,360 and I would just go and print money. It would be amazing. As 509 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,519 we get close to the end of our conversation and you've been so generous with 510 00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:24,559 your time, come on, has there been any one just way out there 511 00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:29,719 wacky even if you knew it was crap, but just wacky experience you've had 512 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,079 when you've stayed at a haunted place where you were like, this is just 513 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:37,000 off the chain. Have you seen anything just crazy, even if it was 514 00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:45,440 human made? So I guess the craziest thing that I saw well heard because 515 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,400 I went to a place called Whispers Estate. This was early on, but 516 00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:53,920 I went there because it was famous for hearing voices. Like people didn't have 517 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,079 to have recorders. They would start talking and doing their ghost hunt thing, 518 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:01,519 and then sometimes during the night they would hear the voice of a little girl 519 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:07,199 suddenly start singing lullabies and it was a big deal. It made its rounds. 520 00:38:07,199 --> 00:38:12,239 It was very popular in the early two thousands, and I got to 521 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,079 visit. I was part of a podcast that was streaming live from that site 522 00:38:16,119 --> 00:38:19,320 and they invited me to go along and I was like, oh, great, 523 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,360 you know this is cool. I'm finally going to get there and I'm 524 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,400 talking to people. There was only about ten of us in the house, 525 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,400 and all of them have experienced this singing. They all heard it, and 526 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:30,920 they all thought it was great. And I'm getting pumped up. I'm trying 527 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,800 not to, but I'm getting pumped up because I'm like, these are all 528 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,920 people and like all they're saying, I can't I can't like figure out what's 529 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:44,519 going on yet. And then I take a look at the stairway because it 530 00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:47,800 was like a foyer where the sounds were coming from, and the main stairs 531 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:52,440 were there, and it was a little just a little area, and I'm 532 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,280 looking at it and I'm like, well, there's a panel on the stairway. 533 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,639 Like the whole stair is the under side of the stairway is enclosed. 534 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:04,280 There's one panel that doesn't match. And I was like, there's something wrong 535 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,559 with this. And I didn't want to take it apart because I didn't have 536 00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:09,119 permission from the owner to take up the panel off because it had screws in 537 00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:12,840 it and you would be able to take it off, so I didn't have 538 00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,960 a permission. I didn't do it. I went and did something else, 539 00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:19,519 and when I came back a little bit later, a few of the ghost 540 00:39:19,559 --> 00:39:23,119 hunters had taken up pond There's themselves to take that panel off, which was 541 00:39:23,159 --> 00:39:28,480 good for me, but not for them because they The owner got pretty pissed 542 00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:31,039 off. But we got to sea downstairs and we got to see that there 543 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:36,079 was a shoot. There was a metal shoot going from under the stairs into 544 00:39:36,119 --> 00:39:39,719 the cross space, and so I went down to the basement, found the 545 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,840 cross space, crawled up into it and there was just enough room. If 546 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,880 I sat on my butt, I would still have to hunch over, so 547 00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:52,519 it was very tight. I'm crawling around. I get to this metal shoot, 548 00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,159 which I think used to be for coal. I think they used to 549 00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:00,920 load coal into some kind of compartment and it went down into basement. But 550 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,599 I stood up in the shoot. I started talking and there was an echo 551 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,000 and everyone stopped and they're like, that sounds exactly like the Ghost Girl, 552 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,559 like this whole echo, this metallic echo, and I was like, really, 553 00:40:14,639 --> 00:40:17,639 you know, And I start singing horribly because I can't sing, but 554 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,199 they're like, wow, you know, this really does sound like it. 555 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,440 So that made me want to crawl around some more just to take a look, 556 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:30,000 and I accidentally kicked something by one of the pillars supporting support pillars. 557 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,440 I kicked something. I went and looked it up. It was a speaker. 558 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,840 There was a speaker there, and I traced the wire. It went 559 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,039 around certain polls and went all the way back to the main basement where there 560 00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:45,159 was a whole collection of audio equipment, and then I found another speaker that 561 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,639 matched it, and it was right in the same area. There was no 562 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,039 reason why a speaker would be there, much less propped up the way it 563 00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:57,199 was propped up, And that, for me was probably one of the weirdest 564 00:40:57,199 --> 00:41:00,119 things. I was really expecting to hear this music with the sound the singing, 565 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:06,719 and instead I found the best evidence for a hoax going on. So 566 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,519 that probably is the weirdest. I know, you were probably expecting a ghost 567 00:41:09,599 --> 00:41:13,280 or something. I come away with that story, Kenny, I think I 568 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:20,440 would get a bigger rush from discovering the charade I did. I stood up. 569 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,199 I held that speaker up like, oh, I mean, I got 570 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:30,719 the pat on my head, like you're holding Simba up in front of everybody. 571 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:36,559 Yeah, look at this, bitches sounded Kenny. You're awesome, You're 572 00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:39,119 fun to talk to. To send everybody to your stuff, kind of tell 573 00:41:39,159 --> 00:41:43,679 everybody where to find you if you would. The easiest place to find me 574 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,400 is Skeptical Inquirer dot org. If you look that up, look up my 575 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,840 name Kenny Biddle, you'll find my articles. You'll see I have a whole 576 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,239 page of articles and then the ghosts and the machine videos that I do for 577 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,840 them for the Center for Inquiry. You can find me online on Facebook. 578 00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:02,960 I am Kenny Biddle. I post a lot of stuff there. I'm on 579 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,760 Twitter, I'm on Instagram. I'm on TikTok because TikTok is a fun place 580 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:13,000 to find all kinds of really bad videos. But I recreate them. I 581 00:42:13,039 --> 00:42:15,519 do love that. I do love that I have a channel. It's it's 582 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:20,079 Kenny Biddle CSI and I literally go through all the paranormal videos that I find 583 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,239 and I recreate them here. So we reproduce the same effects so you can 584 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,079 see how they're done. Because I show you what we do, like I 585 00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:30,480 recreate it. You see the recreation first, and then you see how I 586 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:35,039 did it, so you can understand it better. And you know when next 587 00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:37,440 time you see a video like that, you're like, I know how that 588 00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:40,000 was done. Okay. I wish we were neighbors. I just wish we 589 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,760 were neighbers. I would be such a pest. He would be like cussing 590 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,320 me, like lock the door, keep him out, Like he's driving me 591 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,159 crazy. Because this is my that's my jam. That sounds like big fun 592 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:52,559 to me. Oh it is. It is all right, Kenny Biddle. 593 00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:57,559 I'm going to include the SI link in the description box. And you're fun 594 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,000 and you're necessary, and I appreciate you talking to us about these alleged paranormal 595 00:43:02,039 --> 00:43:06,480 and let's cross pass again soon. Okay, absolutely good talking to you, 596 00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:10,719 sir. Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a complete archive of 597 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,519 podcasts and videos, products like mugs and t shirts featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, 598 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,719 links to atheist pages and resources, and details on upcoming free thought events 599 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:28,920 and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinking Atheist dot com.