1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:46,560 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,679 and I'm Bill Thomas. I was about to mix it up and say I'm 11 00:00:50,679 --> 00:00:54,240 Bill Thomas, but just to see how you would react, I could say, 12 00:00:54,240 --> 00:01:00,479 and I'm Kristin Dilly. You think people would be confused. You are 13 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:06,799 the one with the velvet golden voice, and I'm definitely not velvet voiced, 14 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,319 so probably I don't think there would be any way to confuse the two of 15 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,120 us. I like your voice just fine, Bill Thomas, I sometimes do, 16 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,959 sometimes do other times not so much. I'd like you to refer to 17 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:27,599 me as Kristin Dilly throughout this entire podcast. It might be hard to remember. 18 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:34,640 Actually, I figured it would be a nice way to three off your 19 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,840 stride very first thing. Minute one. Yeah, consider me thrown. Yeah, 20 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:44,159 keep you on your toes a little bit. We are into oh how 21 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:48,480 many weeks into this whole new world of Colonial Parkway murders coverage? Are we 22 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,239 now three weeks? Four weeks? Oh, it's got to be four six 23 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:55,680 months a year. Yeah. Time flies when you're having fun. Yeah, 24 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,599 and not Bill Thomas time either, but actual regular time. You mean, 25 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:05,439 everything from January eighth, twenty twenty four forward is how we're measuring things. 26 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:08,439 I feel like it is honestly when I talk to people and they're like, 27 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:12,080 oh, yeah, how things man, I've been like since January eight, 28 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,319 things have been nuts everything for me. For Kristin Dilly, time is being 29 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:22,039 reckoned forward from January eight for me too. And then I also find myself 30 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,960 really annoyed because I see articles and I'll go back and I'll read them for 31 00:02:28,039 --> 00:02:31,439 the first time, or perhaps so the fifth time. I'm still very troubled 32 00:02:31,439 --> 00:02:37,319 by the amount of misinformation that was included with that press conference. I guess 33 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,360 it's up to people like us to set the record straight in terms of what's 34 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,520 gone on with the Colonial Parkray murders, our media partners and Blaine Pardoh and 35 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:52,960 so many people have come forward. But it just feels like we're pushing back 36 00:02:53,039 --> 00:02:58,439 against a lot of misinformation that was put out there and just glossing over really 37 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:04,560 important aspects of this investigation, pretending that, oh, we didn't mention that 38 00:03:04,599 --> 00:03:07,719 Alan Wade Wilmer was suspect number one, and the Keith call and Cassandra Haley 39 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:13,960 disappearance must have slipped our minds. Things like that, where you just say, 40 00:03:14,439 --> 00:03:17,560 please, do we really have to play these games? I have said 41 00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:22,240 before and I will continue to say it. I believe the FBI has a 42 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,759 bit of a transparency problem, and I really wish that they were willing to 43 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,759 come out set the record straight and say, hey, here's the information that 44 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,680 we gave, here's the information as it actually is. Please uptake your internal 45 00:03:35,879 --> 00:03:39,159 systems to reflect this information and move forward from there. But we also know 46 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,800 the FBI does not like to admit that they're wrong, and from here we 47 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,479 shall proceed with us continuing to give you the real information that you need. 48 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:52,719 So one of the things that we wanted to give you a heads up about 49 00:03:52,919 --> 00:03:58,240 is we really appreciate the very positive reaction we got to our two recent ask 50 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,159 us Anything episodes in the Colonial Parkway murders. We wanted to thank Robert Gray 51 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:08,120 for his excellent questions. We will be doing that again because obviously we're seeing 52 00:04:08,159 --> 00:04:12,800 a lot of questions being asked on our social media pages mind over Murder on 53 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,639 Facebook and Colonial Parkway Murders especially seems to be very hot these days also on 54 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:23,120 Facebook. So we will be coming back and asking you for more questions and 55 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,399 also trying to go back through the many questions that people have asked over the 56 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,639 past month or so about the status of the Colonial Parkway murders investigations. Please 57 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,759 be on the lookout for that, and thank you so much for the great 58 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,720 feedback that we've gotten so far. And if we ever don't answer a question, 59 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,120 it is not that we are trying to withhold information. It is very 60 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,959 likely just that we don't have the information available to tell you. We do 61 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,240 not know it, but we are working very hard to get answers to everything 62 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,879 that you all have asked, because you're asking excellent, probing questions, and 63 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,399 so we thank you very much for that. As Bill said, please don't 64 00:04:59,399 --> 00:05:03,120 consider this finger wagging moment when I say this, we did run into a 65 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:09,399 couple of problems. We've all got to be careful that we're not throwing out 66 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:17,800 accusations about living people who have lives and reputations and families and their potential linkage 67 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:23,319 to various aspects of the Colonial Parkway murders. We had a situation a couple 68 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:27,879 of weeks ago where someone was just throwing out a person's name. Now, 69 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,079 this person's alive and has friends in the community. His friends responded immediately, 70 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:39,120 and then he did too, within minutes. So that's how quickly the World 71 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:44,360 Wide Web works. It's one thing for us to put out a discussion point 72 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:49,199 about someone that's deceased. So I'm comfortable talking about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, 73 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:56,240 the man's been dead since twenty seventeen, and other potential suspects who are no 74 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,680 longer with us. You can't slander or libel the day, but you can 75 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,360 damage the reputation of living people. So if you said, I think Bill 76 00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:10,959 Thomas is involved in the Colonial Parkway murders. He's right in the middle of 77 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,879 this whole thing, and I think that guy's a murderer. You got to 78 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,199 be real careful about stuff like that. Kristin and I do moderate these social 79 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:23,360 media pages, but we also have lots of other things we're working on. 80 00:06:23,759 --> 00:06:28,079 And quite frankly, I was horrified that someone was just going to throw someone's 81 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,079 name out there who was a friend of one of the victims, and we're 82 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,240 like, what is going on here? And I end up, in this 83 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:40,000 particular example, just hitting the high button because I don't want to see people 84 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:45,800 get sued here, and I don't want to see innocent people's reputations be damaged 85 00:06:45,959 --> 00:06:50,199 by baseless accusations. Much in the same way you're not going to see us 86 00:06:50,399 --> 00:06:58,759 offer theories about other living people. This is something that law enforcement has to 87 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,360 do exploring a lot of interesting options. You bet we are, and we're 88 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:10,120 talking to a lot of people in the Tidewater area in Lancaster and surrounding areas. 89 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:14,480 Absolutely, and it's very helpful and interesting. Some of it's frustrating to 90 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,600 hear about missed opportunities, but we're interested in exploring things, but we're not 91 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:24,839 interested in damaging people's reputations. So I appreciate the consideration. Try to be 92 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:30,279 a little bit thoughtful about how you might put forward an idea, could this 93 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:36,079 involve X, Y or Z without necessarily naming them, because they could easily 94 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:42,680 take offense exactly. And I think that's good practice, not just for our 95 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,079 website, but really for any Facebook page or Twitter page or anyplace else where 96 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:50,839 you're going to spend your time and energy. It's just really important to make 97 00:07:50,879 --> 00:07:56,680 sure that we're being careful and thoughtful and civilized with our discourse. One of 98 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,439 the questions that Robert asked us on our Ask Us Anything episode, we said 99 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,639 we wanted to put a pin in because we would do a larger episode about 100 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,759 it later, was his question about whether or not Alan Wade Wilmer Senior seemed 101 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:15,160 to have any particular aggression or anger and hostility toward same sex couples in particular, 102 00:08:15,879 --> 00:08:18,120 and so we wanted to take a little bit of time today and dig 103 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:26,680 into that question. There are several instances of potential aggression against same sex couples 104 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,959 in the Colonial Parkway murders, and so we wanted to spend a little bit 105 00:08:28,959 --> 00:08:33,039 of time today kind of addressing that, seeing if we can parse together what 106 00:08:33,159 --> 00:08:37,639 do we think if the question is does he have overt aggression? Let's talk 107 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:39,919 about it. Bill. I'll go ahead and turn the mic over to you 108 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,759 for a couple of minutes. Now that I've teed it up, what do 109 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:48,720 you think? It's an interesting question, Kristin. It really is, was 110 00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:54,279 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior targeting same sex couples in the Colonial Parkway murders. It's 111 00:08:54,279 --> 00:08:58,399 a provocative question, and it's not quite so crazy as it might sound at 112 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,960 first. There's some obvious things that are worth pointing out. First of all, 113 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,480 the first known victims in the Colonial Parkway murders are Kathy Thomas and Rebecca 114 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:16,399 Dowski, a lesbian couple. There's kind of two scenarios that could indicate Wilmer's 115 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,799 involvement in Kathy and Beckie's murder. Now, we don't know who the offender 116 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,960 is in Kathy and Beckee's murder. The FBI is still working this case actively, 117 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,159 and I know they are trying their best to figure out if they can 118 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:35,440 create a link between Wilmer and Kathy and Becky, who kick off the Colonial 119 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,639 Parkway murders as we know them. There's two different scenarios that I think are 120 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:43,960 worth talking about. One is we have these unconfirmed reports that Kathy and Becky 121 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:50,559 may have gone to the Yorktown Pub to grab something to eat that evening. 122 00:09:50,399 --> 00:09:56,879 You may recall that in their autopsies they had ground beef and lettuce in their 123 00:09:56,919 --> 00:10:03,840 systems. Now bread is digested very quickly. Ground beef and things like lettuce 124 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,600 roughage are not digested as quickly. But if you think about Kathy and Becky 125 00:10:09,639 --> 00:10:15,039 having ground beef and lettuce in their stomachs, and you think about Williamsburg in 126 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,960 the nineteen eighties, where your late night and I put quotes around that dining 127 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,240 options are somewhat limited. You've only got three or four choices when you're into 128 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:30,919 the evening, say after eight o'clock. You got things like McDonald's, Taco 129 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,039 Bell, and places where you could get a hamburger like the Deli's, like 130 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:41,679 the Delis or the Yorktown Pub. Now there is a football game card from 131 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:48,320 McDonald's found in Kathy's car as well, which might indicate McDonald's, and that's 132 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,919 definitely a possibility. Then we have these unconfirmed reports that two women were seen 133 00:10:54,600 --> 00:11:00,240 matching Kathy and Becky's descriptions at the Yorktown Pub now the Yorktown Pub. We've 134 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,960 talked about this a little bit before. I've only been there during the day, 135 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,320 and I didn't go there in the nineteen eighties. My understanding is there's 136 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,519 two different kinds of crowds there during the day, and there's a lot of 137 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:18,000 tourists and people stopping in, business people, military people, watermen, all 138 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:22,519 sorts of different folks. Apparently at night the crowd got a little rougher, 139 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:28,879 more bikers, watermen, a lot of service personnel who'd be having a few 140 00:11:28,919 --> 00:11:35,879 pops after hours. And it was also a place where if you knew the 141 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,759 right code words, you could make a drug deal, not necessarily over the 142 00:11:39,799 --> 00:11:43,639 bar, but around back. As we understand it, if you ask the 143 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,600 right people the right question, you could buy cocaine, marijuana, and other 144 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:54,519 drugs there. It's not considered a gay friendly place. As we've talked about 145 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,200 before, Kathy and Becky has the same sex couple. If they went to 146 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,679 a place like that would probably have to be very careful. It isn't a 147 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,679 place where you're gonna have a lot of public displays of affection. There's not 148 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:09,559 kind to be any handholding or anything like that. It's the nineteen eighties. 149 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:15,919 Virginia's conservative, a lot of military. Kathy's on active duty for at least 150 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,600 the first part of their relationship, and Kathy course has been investigated by the 151 00:12:18,759 --> 00:12:22,559 Naval Criminal Investigative Service for being a lesbian, so they're going to be real 152 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:28,200 careful. Unfortunately, there were some waitresses that the FBI was trying to talk 153 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:33,279 to who flew the coop were not exactly sure why. One waitress in particular 154 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,519 said she thought she had waited on two women with shoulder length hair, one 155 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,240 with dark wavy hair, and one with red wavy hair, which would match 156 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,279 Kathy and Becky's description. Now, if somebody like Wilmer were hanging out at 157 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,080 the bar there, it's all one big room, he might have seen them, 158 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,320 he might have followed them. Wilmer, as we understand it, did 159 00:12:54,759 --> 00:13:01,200 go to singles bars by nineteen eighty two or so. He he's divorced, 160 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,440 he has two kids and an ex wife up in Lancaster County. He's down 161 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:11,039 there in the Tidewater area more or less on his own, And apparently we're 162 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,440 hearing more and more reports that he did frequent singles bars. We believe that 163 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,559 he met Teresa Howell at the Zodiac, the after hours club, and that's 164 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:26,120 conversation for another time. So there's a possibility that Kathy and Becky may have 165 00:13:26,279 --> 00:13:31,919 intersected with Wilmer or an offender like that at the Yorktown Pub. There's another 166 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,559 really dark option, which is we believe that Alan Wade Wilmer, who started 167 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,039 out as a peeping tom, he has a history, and we believe there's 168 00:13:41,279 --> 00:13:46,039 escalating behaviors. In other words, you start out as a peeping tom, 169 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:52,360 and then eventually you move into break ins, sexual assaults, rape, murder, 170 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:56,879 and you can see this is the track that we believe that Wilmer was 171 00:13:56,919 --> 00:14:01,000 on. There's a very scary possibility that Alan Wade Wilmer may have taken his 172 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:07,600 boat or his truck to these locations where he knew lovers would be engaged in 173 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,759 sexual and romantic activity. He may have actually gone there hunting. So there's 174 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:18,240 this very scary scenario where he actually could be going to these places with the 175 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:24,240 specific intent of raping and killing people. Since we believe that Kathy and Becky 176 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:31,120 may have been at the Ringfield Plantation picnic area, which is a very quiet 177 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:35,960 ten acre spot, quite isolated along the Colonial Parkway, with much more privacy 178 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:39,879 than most of the other places that we've talked about with the half moon pull 179 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:46,919 offs along the Colonial Parkway. Could he have actually been emerging from the woods 180 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:52,039 into a place that was known for same sex twisting if you will, it 181 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,320 could be in I think that's something right out of a horror movie. Let's 182 00:14:56,399 --> 00:15:01,919 be real about it. It's terrifying to think of being in a lovely secluded 183 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,399 spot, spending time with your significant other, trying to get a little romantic, 184 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,039 or just talking and watching the water, watching the moon rise totally also 185 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,960 a valid choice of activity. And suddenly you've got a guy with a flashlight 186 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:22,399 blinding you while he's knocking on the window. That's terrifying, full stop terrifying. 187 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,639 I hate the idea of that. That is absolutely nuts to me. 188 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,279 And suddenly, because you had used the words lover's Lane, I'm suddenly realizing 189 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:37,320 that the name of our Oxygen series maybe isn't as bad as we thought it 190 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,919 was, and it might be a little more on the nose. And that's 191 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,639 scary to me as well. No, I think you're right. I'm fairly 192 00:15:43,679 --> 00:15:48,480 certain that Kathy and Becky were not killed at the Cheatham Annex overlook, which 193 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:52,799 is where the car is found, because it's so close, literally fifty feet 194 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:58,000 or so from the surface of the roadway that is the Colonial Parkway, So 195 00:15:58,039 --> 00:16:03,360 there's no privacy there. If you wanted to be romantic or commit a crime 196 00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:08,480 for that matter, would you do either of those activities in a grassy parking 197 00:16:08,559 --> 00:16:14,320 area that's directly next to the roadway. It just don't like me as a 198 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:18,399 likely scenario, no matter how in command you think you are or how much 199 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,159 you're in your comfort zone, I have a real hard time believing that Alan 200 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:30,039 Wade Wilmer or another offender is going to spend all the time necessary to take 201 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:34,200 the steps that were included in the murder of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. 202 00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:41,080 Absolutely, because you are talking about not only making sure that the bodies are 203 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:47,200 in the way back and the back seat, you are also talking about the 204 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,440 time that it would take to try to push the car toward the edge of 205 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:56,159 the embankment. We know that Wilmer was a smaller statued guy, we know 206 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,639 he was strong, but still it takes a little bit of work to push 207 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:03,559 a car over the edge. Remind everybody what Kathy was driving. She's driving 208 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,119 a nineteen eighty Honda Civic and that was back when Honda's were smaller than they 209 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:14,119 are now. So it's a fairly light cards under two thousand pounds. It's 210 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,480 a manual transmission, so easy enough to throw into neutral. I do think 211 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:22,759 one person, and as we understand it, Alan Wade Wilmer, was extremely 212 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:27,200 strong. We've talked to people that worked with him in his tree service business 213 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:30,279 and they said they would not have messed with the guy. Even though he 214 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:37,279 was fairly shortened stature at only five to five, he was really built from 215 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,279 all the work on the water. So I don't think he would have any 216 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:45,519 problem whatsoever pushing the Honda Civic over the edge of the embankment down towards the 217 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,599 York River, even with Kathy and Becky's bodies inside. I think totally you're 218 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:56,440 probably looking at an eighteen hundred pound car plus two people under twenty two hundred 219 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,960 pounds and on level ground. I don't think a strong built guy like Wilmer 220 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,680 or another offender would have difficulty pushing the car over the edge. We do 221 00:18:06,759 --> 00:18:10,599 know ultimately though, that his goal of getting the car into the river did 222 00:18:10,599 --> 00:18:14,519 not succeed because it got tangled up in the underbrush. And at that point 223 00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:17,599 you're not going to get the clean getaway that you were looking for. You're 224 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:18,839 not just going to be shoving the car over the edge and being able to 225 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,359 beat feet back to wherever the boat or the truck was. Instead, then 226 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:29,640 he's got to take the time to pour the diesel fuel. Like the matches, 227 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,319 all of that is something that you don't necessarily want other cars coming down 228 00:18:33,319 --> 00:18:37,200 the parkway within fifty feet of you seeing you do so. I think that 229 00:18:37,599 --> 00:18:42,279 the dump site is not the site where the actual crime took place. It 230 00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:48,279 is not the primary crime scene. I can't imagine dumping the car over the 231 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:49,720 edge and trying to get it to go down the edge of the embankment. 232 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,839 I can't imagine that being just a short and easy process. No, it 233 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,960 sounds very time consuming, and with these multiple steps, with the strangulation by 234 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:06,039 rope throat cutting, loading the cars with the two bodies, Kathy in the 235 00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:10,480 way back in diagonally across the rear seat, attempting to set the car on 236 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:15,920 fire with diesel fuel, which always struck me as really out there, and 237 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,599 then ultimately pushing the car over the embankment having failed to set the car on 238 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:25,640 fire. It's very time consuming. I'm thinking you're spending half an hour or 239 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:30,599 maybe longer with this car in these bodies. It's a pretty gutsy move to 240 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,319 do all of this right next to the roadway. One of the things that 241 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,000 I've been trying to figure out, I'm sure you are too, over the 242 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:41,240 last series of weeks, is what is he using to get himself there? 243 00:19:41,759 --> 00:19:47,759 Is he beaching the boat someplace, is he anchoring someplace and wading in, 244 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,599 or is he using the truck that so many people have seen? That I 245 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:57,240 think changes the roadmap a little bit. If he's in the truck, where 246 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,839 did he come upon them? Did he pull in to the Ringfield plantation? 247 00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:06,200 So then that means if he did, he drove Kathy's car, had to 248 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:07,880 do everything that he could to try to dispose of it, and then he 249 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,519 had to run half a mile down the road back to his car, No 250 00:20:11,759 --> 00:20:15,480 even a little further nine tenths of a mile from one location to the other. 251 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,079 You're listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word 252 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:30,759 from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. I try to be 253 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,920 logical about this stuff, even though I think sometimes we're trying to attach logic 254 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:40,480 to an inherently illogical act. There is a reason why Becky's bodies in the 255 00:20:40,599 --> 00:20:47,240 back seat and Kathy's bodies in the hatchback area that would allow an offender or 256 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,559 two offenders to ride in the front seats. So that driving the Honda, 257 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,960 let's just say from Ringfield Plantation nine tenths of a mile down the road to 258 00:20:57,079 --> 00:21:02,880 the Cheetah Mannox Overlook. It's not that much of a stretch. But if 259 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,440 he's arriving in his own truck, if he's by himself, a single offender, 260 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:11,160 he can't drive both vehicles at the same time. If he's arriving by 261 00:21:11,279 --> 00:21:15,559 boat, he has to leave the boat and then use the victim's car. 262 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,960 This begins to sound a bit like Keith and Sandy, where Keith's Toyota Celica. 263 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,759 There were a number of reports that the seat was pulled well forward. 264 00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:30,200 He's five to five Keith is closer to six feet, so there's a significant 265 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:36,119 difference in leg length. It sounds like if it's one offender without an accomplice 266 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,880 or someone to help him move cars and stage cars. They do have to 267 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,319 then get back to the boat, the truck, or whatever vehicle it is 268 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,960 they're using to get to the location. I know someone is going to ask, 269 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:55,160 I'll go ahead and ask preemptively. How tall was Kathy? Cathy's five 270 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,720 to seven, okay, so she's my height, all right. Becky's even 271 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,200 a little taller. I never met Backy, but I think she's a five 272 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,640 to eight. So they're both good sized, athletic women. I tend to 273 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:11,319 drive with my seat pretty far back because my legs are long. Would that 274 00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:15,039 that have been the case with Kathy as well? Yeah? Absolutely? Okay, 275 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,839 So for Wilmer to drive her car, for example, the seat would 276 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,400 have had to have been moved. I imagine I would say yes. Now, 277 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,720 in the photographs I've seen most of the time, and some of the 278 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:29,319 photographs are reversed, which makes it a little complicated because they started out as 279 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:33,759 slides, the seats seem to be forward, in other words, folded forward. 280 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:34,839 So you can get into folded forward. Ye, yeah, get into 281 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,119 the back seat. Now, remember when the first responders were there, they 282 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,480 actually entered the vehicle. You wouldn't do that in twenty twenty four, but 283 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,960 this is nineteen eighty six and crime scenes were not restricted in the way that 284 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,480 they are now. I've talked to the first responders who said they actually climbed 285 00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:56,200 into the vehicle. They weren't certain that Kathy and Becky were dead at first, 286 00:22:56,079 --> 00:23:00,519 and they actually got into the Honda in the back seat. And then 287 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:03,319 it's a little easier to access Kathy's body because she was in the trunk. 288 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,119 It's a little hard for me to say where the Honda's seats were in relation 289 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:14,039 to when the car was first found. I have seen photographs in various stages, 290 00:23:14,279 --> 00:23:18,119 but again, you don't know exactly when the photograph was taken. Some 291 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,599 of them are clearly taken after the car has been pulled back up from the 292 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,279 embankment and back onto the grassy area, because not much detail is visible when 293 00:23:26,279 --> 00:23:30,880 the cars nose down towards the York River. Another question that I know people 294 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:36,279 are going to ask, because we have very conscientious listeners and followers, can 295 00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:41,200 you tell us what happened to Kathy's car after her death, because I'm sure 296 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,559 people will be asking where's the car? Can we swab it for DNA. 297 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,279 Can we use them back? The answer is no, but I'll let you 298 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:52,079 expand upon why. Yeah, those cars are all long gone. I've seen 299 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,519 photographs of the car in an impound garage where it was taken after it was 300 00:23:56,559 --> 00:24:02,759 towed from the Colonial Parkway. A number of interior parts of the car, 301 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,319 carpets, floor mats, probably some pieces of the interior of the Honda Civic 302 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:14,000 were retained and are still in possession of the FBI, but the car itself 303 00:24:14,079 --> 00:24:18,039 was ultimately scrapped. We have the situation with a number of vehicles where the 304 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,000 vehicles were actually returned to the families, which now strikes me as very unfortunate. 305 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,559 That's how things were done in the nineteen eighties. I'm really hoping that 306 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,640 if the FBI has not already tested those interior portions of the car that it 307 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,519 still retains, I hope that now would be a great time for them to 308 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:41,720 do that, using both the MVAC from our friend Jared Bradley and anything else 309 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,839 that they think they can use to see if maybe there's some DNA on those 310 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:48,920 seats and floor mats and so on and so forth. I think this would 311 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,680 be a great opportunity for them to test all of that. Now, let's 312 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,559 see what we can get out of it. I believe most of that testing 313 00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:00,599 has been done based on my conversations with the FBI and the last couple of 314 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,039 years. So before we move on, I think we have two potential scenarios 315 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:10,240 that immediately come to mind. One is that perhaps Kathy and Becky cross paths 316 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,680 with Alan Wade Wilmer Senior or another offender at a place like the Yorktown Pub. 317 00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:21,440 Or that Allan Wade Wilmer Senior or another offender entered what I believe to 318 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:27,440 be the Ringfield Plantation picnic area with an intent towards attacking couples, many of 319 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,839 whom might have been same sex. In the large book of press clippings that 320 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,880 I keep from that time period, most of which is courtesy of Joyce Call's 321 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,119 father, who kept very detailed notes and files, I do have a clipping 322 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,759 from the April thirtieth, nineteen eighty eight edition of the Virginia Gazette, which 323 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:53,759 is our local hometown paper. I'm not going to read this entire article, 324 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,000 not only because it's quite long, but it is also, by the standard 325 00:26:00,079 --> 00:26:03,599 of twenty twenty four, quite offensive. Just in the way that they use 326 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:10,279 specific terminology with regard to same sex couples. I do want to make sure 327 00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:15,359 that everyone is clear about why we keep asserting that Ringfield Plantation was a known 328 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,440 cruising spot. This article from April thirtieth, nineteen eighty eight, which is 329 00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:25,279 shortly after Keith Call and Cassandra Haley disappeared. I want to give you guys 330 00:26:25,319 --> 00:26:29,799 the context on this, and please understand that none of this writing is from 331 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,279 me or from Bill. This is from Virginiazette reporter Mike Lake from nineteen eighty 332 00:26:34,319 --> 00:26:41,160 six. The unfortunate title of the article is Park Battle's Influx of Gaze, 333 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,119 and I'm going to read just the first three paragraphs here. Ringfield was made 334 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,920 for families. Scattered tables, nestle under towering oaks on a bluff, overlooking 335 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:55,160 King's Creek, and grills dot the well kept grassy areas, inviting visitors to 336 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,240 spend an afternoon barbecuing hamburgers and chicken wings. Soothing breezes in waves gently lapping 337 00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:06,559 the sandy shoreline helped create an idyllic picnic setting. But these days few families 338 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,039 can be found in the park. Quote Ringfield has become a traditional gathering spot 339 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,920 for gays, said David Moffitt, superintendent of the Colonial National Historical Park, 340 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:21,119 which includes the picnic areas along the Colonial Parkway. There is nothing wrong or 341 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,200 illegal with that. It's the unsavory activity that goes along with it that bothers 342 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,720 me. Ringfield is but one of three quote hot spots frequented by homosexuals. 343 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:34,839 Moffat said. The Great Neck and Yorktown Beach picnic areas also attract their share 344 00:27:34,839 --> 00:27:40,440 of gays, but Ringfield's relative seclusion seems to draw the most activity. I'm 345 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,920 going to stop reading the article because it really just gets more offensive from there. 346 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,440 But you've got it right here in writing Ringfield Plantation is a place that 347 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:55,400 was well known as a cruising spot. The rest of the article does discuss 348 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,720 the efforts made by the folks at the park service to cut down a graffiti 349 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,400 to copy down the license plates of people who were seen loitering in the area. 350 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:08,640 It's quite appalling the way that it's written and the way that same sex 351 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:14,359 couples are referred to. However, this was the treatment in nineteen eighty six. 352 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,799 We do not condone it. We think it's appalling for anybody who is 353 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:22,039 wondering where did you get that intel about Ringfield plantation. It's here, It 354 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:29,359 was well known at that point. Very interesting two potential scenarios. I think 355 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,759 the Ringfield plantation one is probably spot on. But that does bring to mind 356 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:37,799 that horrific image that you brought up a little bit earlier, bill of Wilmer 357 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,160 either coming in his truck or coming up through the water on the boat and 358 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,480 sneaking up to the window of Kathy's car. And that's not going to let 359 00:28:47,519 --> 00:28:51,680 me sleep well tonight. Now, we do have other reports that in a 360 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:56,559 different incident with a straight couple, but in this same timeframe, Alan Wade 361 00:28:56,599 --> 00:29:03,039 Wilmer Senior apparently came up and we've told you about how he used to accost 362 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:08,119 people on the Colonial Parkway, banging on windows, demanding driver's licenses, almost 363 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,599 like a cop would. But he's not wearing a police uniform. He's driving 364 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,720 his very distinctive truck. He's using the high beams on his truck to help 365 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:22,960 blind people. He's not using police lights or anything like that. He's just 366 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,039 taking this highly aggressive Approachary comes up in bangs on people's windows and insists they're 367 00:29:27,079 --> 00:29:32,200 doing something wrong or they're trespassing, demands their driver's licenses, and in many 368 00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:34,759 examples he's trying to get them to roll the window down, which some more 369 00:29:34,839 --> 00:29:40,519 cautious people refuse to do, and fortunately these people lived to tell the tale. 370 00:29:40,759 --> 00:29:42,599 Here's one thing that jumped out at me from one of those reports. 371 00:29:42,839 --> 00:29:49,599 Wilmer approached a straight couple who were engaged in making out and not paying much 372 00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:55,119 attention to their surroundings. He approached them in this very aggressive manner, but 373 00:29:55,200 --> 00:30:00,519 one of the things he said was, are you girls having fun? Apparently 374 00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:03,759 the guy had longer hair, and when he turned around, he realized that 375 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,319 he wasn't dealing with a same sex couple, but he was dealing with an 376 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:11,559 opposite sex couple, a man and a woman, and these people were able 377 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:17,279 to fend him off. But I remember saying to Kristen, how weird it 378 00:30:17,519 --> 00:30:22,160 was that this guy would say are you girls having fun? Which is sometimes 379 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,920 an expression that's used. How weird that this would be within at most a 380 00:30:26,039 --> 00:30:32,839 year and a half after Kathy and Becky were brutally murdered just down the Colonial 381 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,839 Parkway. It strikes me as a really odd thing to say, yeah, 382 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,160 absolutely, it does. As soon as you had said that during one of 383 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,799 our sort of reporting in phone calls at the end of the day where I 384 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,240 call Bill and say, what's been going on. I've been wrangling teenagers and 385 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,000 he gives me all the information. As soon as he said that, that 386 00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:56,480 immediately sent my antenna right up, very odd and then switching over to the 387 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:03,839 Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge Huge Management area, they changed it parking area. When 388 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:07,400 we were talking with Blaine Pardo a couple of weeks ago, we asked Blaine 389 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,359 to tell the story about how the cops said, are you here for a 390 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:18,519 blowjob or some weed? Apparently, this Ragged Island parking area has been known 391 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:22,039 for decades as a gay cruising spot. It's also a place where you would 392 00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:26,599 go to engage in a low level drug deal and we always have to remind 393 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:30,440 our younger listeners this is before the internet, this is before cell phones, 394 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:36,000 before he pagers. If you wanted to go score some pot, you had 395 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,799 to go to where the dealers were, or you had to know somebody who 396 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,559 would say, oh, yeah, my cousin's a dealer, he can get 397 00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:48,000 you some pot or whatever it was. It's very striking that Ragged Island is 398 00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:52,000 another well known gay cruising spot. Could Alan Wade Wilmer, whom we know 399 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,319 was the offender for certain in the rape and murder of Robin Edwards and David 400 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,880 Nobling which took place at Right Island. Could he have gone there with an 401 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:08,319 eye towards attacking a same sex couple or a mixed sex couple. It's a 402 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:15,720 very intriguing thought that perhaps this guy is going to equal opportunity offender, willing 403 00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:22,039 to attack women, men, and couples in perhaps any combination. Exactly when 404 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:27,200 we were asking doctor Ray Carr and Jim Fitzgerald the couple of weeks back that 405 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,880 we had them on the pod whether they felt Wilmer was a preferential or opportunistic 406 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:37,799 offender, they had said that probably preferential, but most offenders will take what 407 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:44,079 they can get should the opportunity arise. And I get the feeling that Wilmer 408 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,279 was definitely an offender who would take whatever he could get. I am still 409 00:32:49,319 --> 00:32:57,119 struck by Fitz's terminology of apex predator for Wilmer, because I do feel like 410 00:32:57,279 --> 00:33:01,079 a shark he's going to hunt wherever he sees potential prey. For Wilmer, 411 00:33:01,119 --> 00:33:05,079 it seems like there were any number of spots where he might have done that, 412 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,400 whether that was clubs on Mercury Boulevard or the Colonial Parkway or the Ragged 413 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:17,079 Island Refuge Management area. It looks like Wilmer was very much an equal opportunity 414 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,920 opportunistic offender. One of the things that our profilers have told us is that 415 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:30,640 serial killers like variety in their targets and that they enjoy a challenge. For 416 00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:34,160 example, as we talked about a few minutes ago, we have reports that 417 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,200 Wilmer started out as a keeping top then escalated over time, and we know 418 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:45,359 he's for certain a serial killer and rapist. He may be the kind of 419 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,799 offender that actually enjoys the variety, and, as our profiler friends were saying, 420 00:33:51,079 --> 00:33:55,079 enjoys the challenge of ultimately taking on a couple where you've got two people 421 00:33:55,319 --> 00:34:01,200 and the potential risk to the offender is much greater because two people, one 422 00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:06,039 might be able to overpower you, or one might be able to get away. 423 00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:08,800 We've talked about that. In the Robin Edwards David Nobling example, David 424 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,880 was shot twice, perhaps while struggling or perhaps while trying to get away. 425 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:19,159 Robin was shot once. But you can see how in these scenarios, and 426 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,119 Jim Clementi talked about this with us in the Lover's Lane Murders television series on 427 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:29,960 Oxygen. It's a challenge, but a well organized, aggressive offender can control 428 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,920 a couple. That offender has got to come in with a strong aggressive attitude, 429 00:34:35,159 --> 00:34:38,360 perhaps use a gun to establish control, which I think is definitely what 430 00:34:38,559 --> 00:34:44,280 happened in the Edward's Nobling case. Although a gun might have been used in 431 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,400 some of these other examples, it's hard for us to say because we have 432 00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:52,880 badly decomposed or even missing bodies. Lots of interesting things to think about here. 433 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:58,079 If you have any information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior and his activities, 434 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,440 please make sure that you reach out to the correct law enforcement authorities. 435 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:08,239 The tip lines for the FBI and the VSP are as follows one eight hundred 436 00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:15,400 call FBI. You can submit tips online at tips dot FBI dot gov, 437 00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:23,639 or you can email questions at VSP dot Virginia dot gov. That is going 438 00:35:23,679 --> 00:35:28,719 to do it for this episode of Mindover Murder. Thank you so much for 439 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:43,320 listening. We'll see you next time. Mindover Murder is a production of Absolute 440 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:49,599 Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 441 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,480 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin 442 00:35:53,559 --> 00:36:00,599 McLoud. Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can 443 00:36:00,639 --> 00:36:04,800 follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our 444 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,280 page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow 445 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:14,079 Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening 446 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:15,000 to mind Over Murder.