What Up? What Up? What Up? What Up? Everybody? Welcome
to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where you get to ask
me anything you want about the National Electrical Code and all things electrically related.
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if you want. All right, so let's get into the day's questions that
were submitted to Let's ask Paul and I'm going to read this first question first
and then i'll answer it. Then, well, we'll see if we have
time for another one, we'll go into it. It says, Hello,
Paul, I have been listening to podcast episode one forty three to get a
better understanding of type MC cable. I heard you talk about how the twenty
twenty three code they added the clarification that an MC connector is considered as a
type of securing and supporting. Well, actually it's a type of supporting.
It didn't state that it was a type of securing. It said supporting.
Okay, there's a difference, and I'll explain that. It says I also
heard you talk about AWG number ten or smaller four conductors or less. It
would need to be secured within twelve inches of the box and six feet after
that. My question is if you have two boxes, say, for example,
a receptacle amount at hammer heights, so we'll say sixteen inches or eighteen
inches off the floor, and a TV receptacle that is up at five and
a half feet. Okay, now, chances are you probably wouldn't be using
MC for this, but in this case, since it was asked this way,
that's what you're gonna do that says the distance between each box is less
than six feet using twelve to two type MC cable, would this installation still
requires securing the MC cable within twelve inches of the box, or since the
connector is considered securing and supporting, it's considered supporting, not securing supporting.
But we'll see in a minute. Why is no additional securing required? Thanks
in advance, love your podcast. All right, well, thank you for
submitting that question. All right, it's enough of that. Thanks for submitting
that question. So what this is gonna do to answer this question. It's
gonna take us into the National Electrical Code for those that follow, and we're
gonna be using the twenty twenty three edition of the NEC because again his reference
was in that episode was talking about the twenty twenty three edition, and in
three point thirty dot thirty A they added the phrase type MC cable fittings shall
be permitted as a means of cable support, not securing its support. Now,
in your question, it very much sounds like this is somebody's adding a
TV later, right, So I'm gonna look at it in two different ways.
So they're adding a TV and they're putting it up higher. So it
means it's a finished building and it is already either gypsum board or whatever,
it's done. So they're adding it, they're gonna connect to it, and
they're gonna add it up higher. Okay, all right, so we'll talk
about that first. So in that scenario, that's we're gonna come down to
three thirty dot thirty D and it's called unsupported cables. It says type MC
cables shall be permitted to be unsupported and and unsecured where the cable complies with
any of the following. Now, number one it says is fish between access
points through concealed spaces and finished buildings or structures, and supporting is impractical.
Okay, So that's the first one, all right. So in this case,
if we were talking about finished construction, sheet rocks already up, and
somebody comes along and says, hey, man, I now want to teach
I want a receptacle of high for my flat screen, okay, and you're
using MC by some chance, and that's what this question is based on.
So I know there's my trolls out there that say this wouldn't happen, This
would be in m cable, but maybe not. If it's a multi family
building. You're in a dwelling units multiple stories, they're going to be using
MC. So obviously that's why this person's using MC. Okay, stop being
a troll, all right. So this is what their choice was, it
says. Now number two says it is not more than six feet in length
from the last point of cable support to the point of connection to the luminair
or other electrical equipment, and the cable end point of connection is within an
accessible ceiling. Okay, So this is not in a ceiling, this is
in a wall. So this one is not going to apply. Okay.
The next one says is type EMC of the interlocked armer type in length not
exceeding three feet from the last point where it was securely fastened and used to
connect equipment with flexibility is necessary to minimize the transmission vibror. Neither one of
these apply. Okay. Now here's the deal. Item number one. D
one says is fish between. It says, it says that you meet any
of these in D. It doesn't say you have to meet all of these
any of these. So D one says is fished between access points through concealed
spaces in finished buildings or ructures, and supporting is impractical. Okay. So
in this case, it's impractical to put any supporting on it right between the
box at the bottom and the box you're putting at the top. Okay,
so if you're fishing it in it and we do not give a Lenke requirement
here in which people ask about all the time, because there's some people that
want to do this on even bigger MC and they wonder what's the maximum I
can go, right, But that is this is unsupporting rule. Okay.
Now, notice that D says unsupporting unsupported cables, but yet the rule says
unsupported it unsecured. So we should probably submit a public input, I believe
too late now, a public input to change D to being unsupported and unsecured
cables. And I'm sure somebody we didn't catch it, and we didn't do
it because the rule states unsupported and unsecured. But this is a reason why
we make changes every three years. Sometimes we just see stuff and we go,
damn, I wish we had a wish. We had to clarify that.
Okay, all right, now, the importance of this is it is
since it's impractical to do the supporting. Then I would think that in that
amount there, if you're fishing it, that's not going to be a problem
to go from the box to box. All right. I don't think you'd
have any problem with that at all. Okay, all right, So not
going to be any issues, and it is going to be considered supported with
this new additional language. It's considered supported at the box, and then it's
supported at the other box, and they're within six feet of each other,
then we're going to argue that that is supported. And of course there's the
securing element of it is basically where D's going to kick in and say,
look, it shall be permitted to be unsupported and unsecured where the cable complies
with any of the following. And we're using D one to do that.
So I'm not gonna have any I wouldn't have any problem with that. Now,
if you're doing this in new construction, obviously you're going to be putting
it, you know, on the wall, in the wall, and it's
new construction, so it's not through concealed spaces that's in finished work. It's
part of new construction. If that is the case, then based on what
you said twelve to two and what you're dealing with, then then you have
to follow the rules of three thirty dot thirty and in this case the securement
requirement because the MC cable fittings shall be permitted as a means of cable support,
did not qualify for securing, only for support. So you still have
to follow the rules in three thirty dot thirty B that says unless otherwise permitted
in this code, and that was the unsecured and unsupported rule that we just
saw a minute ago. That's what it means when it says that it says
cables shall be secured at intervals not exceeding six feet, so that's the general
rule. Then it says cables containing four or fewer conductors size no larger than
ten awg shall be secured within twelve inches of every box. So what that
means is, no, you could not go from the bottom receptacle up to
the upper receptacle. If that was a six foot span and you're doing twelve
two, then you're gone to have to secure it within twelve inches of the
box each box. Okay, you with me? Okay, Now, if
this had been feeder size or it was you know, larger than ten or
if it was twelve five twelve six conductor for whatever reason, then you could
go up to six feet before you hit your securement. But again it's the
subtleness of knowing the difference between a securing rule and a supporting role. The
securing component might also meet the supporting component, but not always does a supporting
component meet the securing component. That's why there's two separate ones, right,
So you kind of got to look at each installation and look at what you're
doing. But in your question, it sounds like you're phishing it in.
So then you're gonna get away with three thirty dot thirty D one as what
you're going to use to not have to worry about it from connector to connector.
Okay, hope that answers your question in that one that was submitted.
Again, this was submitted over on Paul Abernathy dot com, so we'll make
sure you check that out. And uh, let's see if we got another
question. Okay in this question here that was submitted and I'll do my best
with this one. I do have an upcoming episode that we're working on for
fault managed systems or digital electricity. But this question says I listened to your
recent podcast on digital electricity fault managed power systems. If you don't mind,
I have two potential questions. Should you ever have someone from volt server on
your show, as you mentioned you might now we are trying to work with
them. They did have a representative contact us, and I've been too busy
to get back to them, and we're going to do the episode either with
or without them, because all of our stuff is based on the NEC anyway,
so we're not going to get into any proprietary thing with a volt server
any of that. They have a they'll have an invitation when I do it,
and we decide the date and they want to join us, that's great.
If they don't, still going to answer the questions based on the National
Electrical Code and what I know about these Class four fault managed systems. Okay,
So two questions, and I'll do my best to try to answer these
to the best of my knowledge, and of course, if I'm wrong,
somebody from volt meter or a volt server can comment on it. Are you
more than happy to comment in the comments and correct me if I'm wrong?
It says Number one, It says being that Class four systems are using voltage
and currents that would be hazardous. Hazardous, say, say, for the
ability to detect the fault, what is the recommended periodic testing to prove these
systems continue to have effective fault detection and interruption. Okay, so I guess
what he's saying is, since they have the ability to go up to four
hundred and fifty vaults AC or DC, typically these will probably be DC.
And since it's required to have a transmitter and a receiver that's constantly checking the
system five hundred times a second. By the way, it's pretty much self
regulating in a sense that it's there's nothing really you're going to do. It's
designed based on the transmitter and the receiver, so it's very high voltage but
low current, and it's done it in a way that it's checking it so
often. So I don't know that there's anything that you would be able to
do. And I don't want to try to speculate on any of that,
because this is designed to be a system that has a transmitter and receiver,
and if the since the transmitter is taking let's say ACN, it's going to
the transmitter and it's changing it to DC four fifty is probably the more predominant
application, and it's sending that to the transmitter, which is then is going
to either change it to AC or you're going to utilize it as DC,
maybe drop it down for your DC usage ratings or voltage ratings, so whether
it's twelve volts, forty eight volts, whatever it may be, or it's
getting to a point where it's using an inverter and then turning it back into
AC for limited loads things like that. I think that the point between the
transmitter and the receiver is pretty managed. In other words, if there's anything
that goes wrong, it's just going to shut down. So I don't think
that I think it's periodically. It's going to constantly be testing itself. And
that's the benefit of this technology. And so it's really incumbent on the manufacturers
and that's why they have standards that are coming out for this class four type
systems fault managed systems. It's not only the cable that you use, but
also the systems that are coming out under UL standard that are going to I
think it's UL seventeen hundred DASH one for the systems and seventeen hundred DASH two
for the cables and things like that. Don't quote me, but I think
that's what it is. And this is already going to be inherent in the
transmitter and receiver aspect of this setup. So I don't think there's anything it's
constantly looking for faults. It can detect series and parallel faults. It can
detect all different types of things, even more enhanced than GFP or ground fault
protection or anything like AFCIS or even gfci IS. It's already going to be
inherent in. They transmitted a receiver type setup. Okay, So I think
that's going to pretty much take care of itself. The next question says,
being that these systems pulse power, what is their potential effect on power factor
if more widely deployed and more energy in loads such as lighting. Well,
I don't know how that the case would be, but I think that if
you're typically using these type of systems, and I will have to ask them
with more of that, I don't know how power factor plays that big of
a role in these When you think about there, again are a system that
is listed with a transmitter and a receiver, and again, at that point,
most of the applications here are going to be for some DC lighting applications,
so you don't have those losses between AC. You don't want to go
from AC to d C, then back to AC and then try to run
a bunch of lighting like LEDs. It's more efficient to run them on a
DC component. And I don't think that that power factor is going to play
that big a role in that and that aspect of it again great question for
volt server, but for me in some of the samples that I've seen when
it comes to the lighting setups on there, how they do it, that
it's the power factor's not been that big of a an issue because it's very
much control. Once the AC comes into the transmitter and then it changes over
to DC four and fifty volts. You do have losses, right, You
do have voltage losses for the link depending and it has a maximum length,
you know that type of thing, so you know you're looking at what happens
when it goes up to six five hundred feet for digital electricity, and you
might have a multiple sets that have a maximum of a let's say six hundred
watts per set, and you're running them basically like you're paralleling you're going to
have losses, but I don't really consider that the same as a power factor.
And when I think more power factors, I'm thinking more of issues with
other loads, like motor loads and things like that, where that would come
into a bigger play. This type of application, it's going to be more
suited for DC, and then when it gets to the transmitter location in this
class four system, it's going to be you're not going to see the losses
because it's going to be directly equated to doing LED or DC lighting loads,
so you're not going to have nearly the loss So I don't see where power
factor is that big of a play when it comes to in your case with
the lighting. In fact, there's some examples that you can see right now
over on volt servers Facebook YouTube page, and they don't have a lot of
videos by the way, they don't have a lot of content, and they've
turned off their comments, which is fine. I moderate my comments as well
because of trolls, but I do allow you to comment, and if you're
asking a legit question, we'll post it. They haven't just turned off altogether,
so nobody can really ask them any questions. So again that's problematic because
they could pick and choose how they answer if they want to, you know,
because you know you do have to moderate the trolls, especially US that
did get an awful lot of controversial or make a lot of statements that some
people are going to agree to disagree with, but they don't allow you to
give that feedback on THEIRS on their platforms like that. But again, I
don't see where there is any real effect where it comes to power factor when
it comes to this type of setup, a transmitter to receiver d C four
hundred and fifty volts DC, I don't see it being four and fifty a
C. I see this being predominantly AC coming in changing over to the DC,
going through the building or going to remote locations where they can pick up
the power to run things like cameras and other things. I see this as
being more of that than it is to do motor loads or other loads.
It will be more susceptible to power factor than the lighting because typically from what
I've seen, most all of this lighting is DC, right, and so
it doesn't mean it can be AC. Doesn't mean we can't have the inverters,
and they are talking about that and they're bringing that up, but maybe
power factor will be more of a problem with that. And that is some
of the questions I'll ask about if they ever come on the show, is
what happens. How is this going to affect the building industry? If we
start moving towards these types of systems right now, you can't use them in
a dwelling. They're prohibited in a dwelling. It doesn't it doesn't allow that
in a dwelling in seven twenty six, in the twenty twenty three doesn't.
It doesn't allow it in a dwelling. So what they're doing is that most
of the loads, the lighting loads that they're hitting the LEDs. You're not
going to have this loss, this conversion between going from AC to DC back
to AC to supply these loads. It's going to be DC loads and so
again, very efficient when it comes to that element of it. But I'll
have to ask. I can't tell you exactly how I think power factor would
play in effect. But you say energy intensive loads, they're already doing it
for lighting and it doesn't seem like it causes any problems. There's a hotel
in Vegas, there's some grow facilities, cannabis growth facilities that are using it
for their lighting one hundred percent in their grow rooms, and that's a lot
of intensive lighting, and they don't really mention anything about power factor, any
losses. Again, that type of scenario, and it's very simple. They
were talking about being able to install it in just a couple of hours.
So again, it doesn't look like there's a big concern when it comes to
power factor, at least from what I can tell. Okay, so I
best I can answer that question for you. Hopefully I will be able to
answer the folks or ask the folks at Vault Server if they ever come on
an episode, because I would like to. I would like to dig in
how deep they think this is going to be. Is this something that eventually
we're going to see a lot of use of inverters and then being able to
have these fault managed systems which are checked five hundred times a second for any
faults or things like that, which is very safe. Are we going to
see that taking over wiring in buildings. I mean, we're already seeing it.
Like I said, in Vegas, they're pretty much doing this one casino,
They're doing all of the rooms. You know, it's seven hundred and
seven rooms and other than a few receptacles which they're still using AC, everything
else in there is using volt servers and they're powering the lighting and everything else,
and it's working great for them, and they have a lot of lighting
loads and they're not having a problem. And we don't hear them talking anything
about power factor being an issue with any of that. So we'll just have
to see and I'll be sure to ask them this question when I have that
interview. Okay, all right, let's seef we got another one to look
at today. Okay, So it looks like we got another question here that
was submitted and it says, Okay, it says we are installing service for
a four story mass timber building. So it looks like this is a type
four construction, the heavy timber, very big wood timbers building. It says,
so it's four story mass timber for a banking software company. All floors
are c l T, so that's cross laminated timbers. Uh, okay,
just be glaminated beams. I guess with access with with access raised floors.
The question I have is the electrical engineer has specified for mc cable on floor
on fourth floor lighting circuits that are inexposed areas below roof c LT. Uh
they are they are asking for MC cable to be installed on top of the
l CT and between the installation that we will be installed prior to the roof
membrane. Okay, all right, So what I can assume here is this
is a a mass timber Uh these uh type four construction large timber beams.
And you have these these laminated timbers Okay, these cross sectional members laminated timbers
that support the weight, and the engineer has specified MC cable will be installed
on top of them. Right. Okay, so again another MC kind of
question. Now, the first thing to remember about MC MC is it cannot
be installed where is subject to physical damage. Get A lot of people think
because of MC and because it's it does have a high crush rate and impact
rate either one thousand or two thousand depending on the size. That doesn't make
it listed for use in locations that are subject to physical damage. Right now,
MC cable is permitted to be installed exposed or concealed. Okay. Three,
the general uses will tell you that. Item number four will tell you
it can be in exposed or concealed locations. Okay, But one of the
things that we we have to remember is that when doing so, we also
have us is not permitted. And three twelve a one says that it shall
not be located where it's subject to physical damage. Now, it does not
sound to me like this installation on top of these il colts, cross the
laminate timbers or whatever. It doesn't sound like they're going to be anywhere there's
a gap between it, or where there's subject to any physical damage. Right,
that type of thing. Okay, So exposed work. It's exposed on
top of these beams. And three thirty fifteen tells us that exposed runs of
cable, except as permitted three hundred don't eleven b okay, which is you
know, through suspended ceiling type of things, shall closely follow the surface of
the building. Finish, And it sounds like it is. It's running on
these beams. Okay. Exposed run shall be printed to be installed on undersides
of choices. We're supported on each choice and located so as not the subject
physical damage. It sounds like these are running on top of it and they
as long as you secure it every six feet, it sounds perfectly fine.
Okay, So I don't see any you know, any problem as long as
you follow all of those rules. I don't really see anything in here that
would be you know, problematic for that. Okay, Now the next thing
we want to look at is, well, since we are talking physical damage
and it can't be located where it's subde physical damage, then we could go
look at three hundred dot four Okay, Okay, now i's long. It's
so it sounds like these cables will be run parallel to the framing members.
It makes sense. Sounds like what they're running it on top of it.
Then you've you've got three hundred dot four D. And again as long as
they install it, they maintain that inch and a quarter from the nearest edge,
then doesn't sound like they're going to have any problem. Now, the
one that we have to be be worried about, and we don't know the
installation. We don't know because he talks about the roof is three hundred four
E, which talks about cables raceways in boxes, installed in or under metal
corrugated roof decking. Now we don't know the type of roofing it is.
But if it's located on top of those colts and you've got that gap.
That's fine, but it says under three hundred four E just for the benefit
of the listener, says, a cable raceway or box installed in exposed or
concealed locations under metal corrugated sheet roof decking shall be installed and supported so there
is not less than one and a half inches measured from the lowest surface of
the roof decking to the top of the cable raceway or box. A cable
raceway or box shall not be installed called in concealed locations in metal corrugated style
deck roofing, so you can't stick it in the little the little gaps there
trying to fish it through those gaps. You know, the little where you
got to corrugated is up and down, up and down, but you can't
try to fish it in there, right, makes sense, So unless that's
what you're you're running into, then you know, I don't see I just
don't see a problem at all in the way that they're doing this installation.
So I wouldn't have any issue with it. Only you're gonna know if whatever
type roofing that is, and whether or not it is a metal corrugated type
of roofing. But I would think the designer has designed this so that the
roof is above that. So they're just running it on the CTL framing members
or the CLT members. Uh this this kind of the big heavy timber type
of members. Then I don't I don't see it as an issue. I
don't see how anything could damage it, for one, and I don't don't
see where there's an issue at all that type of thing. So follow those
basic rules, then everything should be okay. All right, okay, Solfully
that answers that question. I don't know if we have time for one more.
Let me see if we got what our list of questions in and if
it's going to be long. I don't want to be a long podcast today,
so let's see what we've got here. Let's see here. Okay,
we got one. I'll go on and end on this one. This is
one from a fast track student, he says, Paul, I'm in your
fast Tracks Black program. I'm in unit three, and by the way,
Unit three in our fast Tracks program is boxes and enclosures, where we teach
you box still and closures, pullboxes and all this kind of stuff. He
says. I'm in unit three and I'm having a problem with finding where you
find the information on counting bushings and locker rings for additional width for sizing a
box. I am at three dash five C in the book. The reference
they give is article three fourteen twenty eight A one and not finding anything.
I have been in the index and it did not help. Please help.
Thank you in advance for your time. I love your class so far.
Okay, well, thank you for the plug, and thank you for being
in the fast tracks program. So this is kind of one of those things
where I'm teaching people for exams. Right if I'm doing a pullbox, for
example, and I'm doing angle polls straight pulls. The biggest thing that this
is going to play a role in is things like angle pulls, and you're
really going to in an exam. They're going to give you the trade size
right, trade size three three inch, trade size two two inch, trade
size one in a quarter one in a quarter inch. You're not going to
worry too much about the bushing or the locknut when you're doing those basic calculations.
Okay, Now in the real world, it's going to come into effect
because you want to make sure you're taking into account the extra space that the
lock rings can add. In the extra space that the bushings add. But
when it comes to the exam, unless they give you these values, or
they tell you the extra dimensions of the locker rings or the bushings and all
those type of things, then don't worry about that. Okay, it's more
or less you're measuring from raceway entry to raceway entry when you're doing, for
example, if you're doing a U pull or an angle and you're trying to
determine the Z dimension that the same raceway contains the same conductor, and you
may make in these measurements. But when we think about sizing pullboxes, just
focus on what they give you. If it's three trade size three, trade
as four, and then let's say it's an angle pull, and on one
side you have a trade size four and then you have maybe two other trade
size two's. Then remember for the angle pull, it's six times. Think
of angles with an S as six six characters, so it kind of helps
you remember six times, whereas a straight pull is straight as eight that eight
characters. So in an angle pull like that, it's you're doing six times
the largest raceway plus the sum of the other raceways that are in the same
row. So when you're sizing it that way, especially for an exam.
You're doing six times the trade size four, right, So if that's what
was a trade size four and the others were in two other ones or trade
sized two, then be six times four, which is twenty four plus two
plus two. That's twenty eight okay, So you're not really taking into different
considerations the the locknuts and the bushings on that. Now, in the real
world, again you might have to take consideration because it's how you might move
your your box around in order to be able to fit all your raceways in
and stuff like that. But in a real world for that's that. But
in an exam, it's basically, don't worry about the lock rings, don't
worry about the bock of the bush, just focus on the trade size.
So again, if this was the case and it was a what size box
do I need? If it's a a four inch or trade size four coming
into the left and it has two below it that are trade size two,
and then coming in from the bottom, we have the same scenario. Got
a four inch or trade size four and then two trade size twos. So
the X and the Y dimensions, Okay, if that's all they're asking you.
Then from the left to the right, that's an angle poll. So
from the left it would be like we said, it would be four times
six right and plus two plus two. So the dimension from the left to
the right, okay, the opposite wall as it states in three fourteen twenty
eight to the opposite wall, that's going to be twenty eight inches minimum.
And then from the bottom to the top, which is again another angle pool.
There is no straight pole, and it's the same numbers, same raceways,
and it would be twenty eight. So that box has men. The
dimension would be twenty eight by twenty eight. Now, the only other measurement
that you gotta worry about is if the conductors come from let's say the raceways
on the bottom and then turn and it goes into the raceways on the side,
then you have a rule. If that's unbroken, it's not spliced,
and it's common with the two raceways, then you'll have what's called a Z
measurement I like to call it. And then it has to be six times
that raceway distance between those raceways. So if those were trade sized too,
then it'd be two times six. So those raceways from the edge of the
raceway to the edge of the other raceway that contains the same conductor. Then
they have to be at least twelve inches apart. So it's important where you
put these raceways on the box. So once you determine this box is a
twenty eight by twenty eight, then you still have to be concerned about where
you cut your holes because if these conductors aren't spliced, they're simply pulling through
and so they're common with one raceways. The conductor's common to the other raceway,
so it's kind of going in and turning and going out. Then you
also have that Z dimension you have to be aware of. Now, most
of the time on the exams, they're just going to ask you X and
why even if you get a box sol because you know that's not real common
to get pullbox questions on an exam. They believe it or not. It
isn't. We have to teach it in case it comes up, but it's
not often you get one. But those are so many things that you have
to think about. But you only want to answer what they ask you.
Do not speculate, do not let your mind wander, just answer what they
want. If they're not asking you what's the distance between raceways. Then they're
basically asking you what is the why and X dimension based on what's given,
And just simply answer what's given. That's it. I don't try to speculate,
don't try to worry about locknuts, don't try to worry about bushings.
Just answer the question. That's the best advice I can give you, because
what I don't want is the mind to wander. Now, when I tell
people this, I make it very clear that you know, remember, preparing
for a license license exam is an entry level, right, whether you're a
master or journeyman, this is entry level. The real knowledge and the mastery
of being an electrician comes after you get your license, and now you do
have to worry about little things like lock nuts and making sure you have enough
room to move your raceway as far to the right as you can to get
the clearance. If you've got angle pulls and you've got you know, between
raceways, that's field stuff. But on an exam, no, just just
focus on your trade sizes, focus on your distance, follow the rules eight
times, six times, things like that. Then you'll be perfectly fine.
Okay, all right, hopefully that's explain that to you and you got something
out of it. Folks, if you have something that you want to submit
to me, please feel free to do that. All you got to do
is go to Paul Abernathy dot com. I'm always here in your questions and
I'll do my best to do them in a podcast or even email you if
if I can. Until next time, folks, stay safe, God bless a