WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:06.799 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Frank. Hold 2 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:14.439 be Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. Hello, and 3 00:00:14.679 --> 00:00:18.440 welcome to Being Frank. We're the only way to be is the course, 4 00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:21.800 Frank. I'm your host, Frank Lagono, and we'd like to thank you 5 00:00:21.839 --> 00:00:26.920 for joining us here. We like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast. You 6 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:31.079 know, time is valuable, People are busy, competition is fears so many 7 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:35.200 podcasts, but we like to think of ourselves as an alternative to all that 8 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:38.960 noise. So we really appreciate you spending at least some of your day with 9 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:44.320 Being Frank. 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Summer's almost over, kids all this weekend, so 28 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.560 a lot of change in the air, if you'll indulge in a minute. 29 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:12.919 I want to read some statistics because September is suicide Awareness Prevention month and the 30 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:16.919 statistics are telling and staggering. Let me read them to you and then we'll 31 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:23.680 discuss them with our guest. Suicide rates increased approximately thirty six percent between two 32 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:30.159 thousand and twenty twenty one. Suicide was responsible for forty eight thousand, one 33 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:34.960 hundred and eighty three deaths in America in twenty twenty one, which is about 34 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:40.479 one death every eleven minutes. The number of people who think about or attempt 35 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:46.479 suicide is even higher. In twenty twenty one and estimated, twelve point three 36 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:53.680 American adults seriously thought about suicide, three point five million actually planned a suicide 37 00:02:53.680 --> 00:03:00.439 attempt, and another one point seven million attempted suicide. And suicide effect people 38 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:04.560 of all ages. Again when this study was commissioned in twenty twenty one, 39 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:08.719 and it's gotten worse, Suicide was among the top nine leading causes of death 40 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:15.039 for people ages ten through sixty four. Suicide was the second leading cause of 41 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:22.240 death for people ages ten to fourteen and twenty to thirty four. Some groups 42 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.599 have higher set side rates than others. We'll discuss that, and suicide rates 43 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:31.159 vary by race, ethnicity, age, and other factors, including such things 44 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:36.639 as where someone lives. And here I thought it was another incredibly telling statistic. 45 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:42.000 It's not an American phenomenon, it's a world phenomenon because globally, one 46 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:49.319 in every one hundred deaths is a suicide. It's extraordinary and staggering. So 47 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:53.800 now joining us once again to discuss these statistics. Is the best selling author 48 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:59.639 of Some Assembly Required and Roots and Wings, Mindful Parenting and Recover Recovery. 49 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:04.280 Excuse me. He's also a frequent contributor to Psychology Today. He's a therapist 50 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:09.080 and longtime friend Dad Major. Dan, thank you so much for joining us 51 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:13.199 once again. Who were here earlier talking about your specialty addiction and we did 52 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:16.639 talk a little bit about addiction within that framework, but we want to expand 53 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:20.079 a little bit about on that this evening. Thank you for joining us, 54 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:26.319 my pleasure friend. Thank you for having me. Always delighted to be here 55 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:30.360 and to be able to contribute to intelligent conversation. Thank you well said, 56 00:04:30.360 --> 00:04:33.439 Oh my god, you think we might use that one as a commercial mark? 57 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.600 Mark mark that one, Neil. Thank you, Dan. We appreciate 58 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:40.920 it. But it's a serious topic, so we'll get serious. And the 59 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.759 numbers, as we said, are staggering and sobrine, to say the least. 60 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:49.759 The statistics showed the increase, and those are from twenty twenty one from 61 00:04:49.759 --> 00:04:56.759 the CDC. The Center for Disease Control, and some of the numbers that 62 00:04:56.759 --> 00:05:00.839 are coming out now with some recent studies show that it's increased, it's gotten 63 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:08.720 even worse. Then why why why are we why are people increasingly towards turning 64 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:14.519 towards the ultimate, if you will, end, which is suicide. It's 65 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:20.319 staggering. Well, ultimately, Frank, I think, I think the increase 66 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:30.519 in suicide is a manifest and suicide related behaviors is a manifestation of the increased 67 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:36.560 complexity that most people experience in life, and in turn, related to that, 68 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:45.319 the increased stress, anxiety, and depression that so many people experience. 69 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.639 Uh And and you know the first stat that you read and uh And, 70 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:58.560 although there's there's some statistics that are more recent than twenty twenty one, twenty 71 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:05.519 twenty one is the most recent full year for which complete data is available. 72 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:12.839 And and you know, so, as you said, between two thousand and 73 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:16.680 twenty twenty one, the rate of suicide in the US increased by over a 74 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:25.560 third thirty six percent. Now, during that period, also it correlates with 75 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:31.839 the emergence of smartphones and social media. And I'm not going to suggest that 76 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:40.000 those are the primary causes, but the correlation is very compelling. And you 77 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:47.319 know, smartphones because because you know, people now carry carry computers that are 78 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:56.120 more sophisticated and powerful than anything you and I had on our desks in the 79 00:06:56.199 --> 00:07:04.439 late eighties through the nineteen nineties. Basically, and social media where where ironically, 80 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:13.879 when the when the real intention of those technologies seem to be to connect 81 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:18.879 people more closely together and with the world. Ultimately, it seems to frequently 82 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:26.319 have the reverse effect and isolate people further. And so social media has the 83 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:29.720 ability to connect people. You know, for instance, you and I, 84 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:34.360 you know, we've known each other since the since the early nineteen eighties, 85 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:40.319 and you know, we can connect with each other easily and conveniently, you 86 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:45.000 know, via Facebook for example, we do. Yeah, And that's that's 87 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:50.720 that's the way exactly. It's a wonderful beneficial use of social media. But 88 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:58.360 for so many people, even though theoretically there's the opportunity to connect with people 89 00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:03.279 from all walks of their life, it ends up resulting in so many people 90 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:15.959 feeling disconnected and isolated because the interactions are are two dimensional and their cursory and 91 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.439 superficial for them for the most part. And then you have the entire universe 92 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:28.399 of trolling and you know, people behaving so horrifically, abusively and sadistically, 93 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:35.679 you know, and and there's the entire dynamic of online bullying. And so 94 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.159 I want to talk a little bit forgive me, Dan and because at that 95 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.639 moment, because it just came to my mind. Also, there's a saw 96 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:50.440 a recent commercial. There's a new organization, Mothers Against cyber Bullying forgive me. 97 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.559 I don't think that's the correct name, but kind of making the point 98 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.759 is that there has been no legislation, no effort to protect children from cyber 99 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:03.679 bullying, which they leads to these astronomical numbers of kids hurting themselves, killing 100 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:09.879 themselves because of so called cyber bullying. So, you know, comments a 101 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.360 little bit on that. Again, we talked about the positive, the connections 102 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:16.600 we can make, but the isolation, and then beyond the isolation, the 103 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:20.840 deliberate trolling and the effect that it has on young people. It's kind of 104 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:26.639 frightening. Yeah, And the online anonymity seems to, you know, embolden 105 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:33.320 so many people to act in ways that they might very well not if there 106 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:37.399 were in person interactions. And you know, the bullying and the trolling, 107 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:43.960 the The primary effects that it has are mental and emotionally in terms of, 108 00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:54.480 you know, contributing to increases in anxiety, to decreases in self esteem and 109 00:09:54.600 --> 00:10:01.039 any meaningful sense of self worth, increases in sadness and depression, feelings of 110 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:07.639 worthlessness, and more than more than depression, suicide is driven by profound, 111 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:15.639 deep seated feelings of worthlessness and that you know, there's there's nothing for me 112 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:20.440 here, there are no positive contributions for me, for me to make. 113 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.120 I can't catch a break. So after all, what is you know, 114 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:30.600 what is what is the point which you know, people get People get caught 115 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:39.559 in these these uh vicious circles where where they're where their negative feelings, these 116 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:48.000 you know, deeply painful feelings of low self worth get amplified and they go 117 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.440 round and round and get worse as people as as people go, and you 118 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:58.200 know, so so they become increasingly isolated socially. And you know, I 119 00:10:58.240 --> 00:11:05.159 think it was I forget the name of the woman who's whose quote, uh 120 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:13.440 uh it whose quote is attributed in this way, But it's actually a meme 121 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:20.120 that I've seen, and it says comparison is an act of violence against the 122 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:30.679 self and and and while some people may not really appreciate what that means or 123 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.279 feel it's an over dramatization, the more I've thought about it, the more 124 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:41.960 validity I think it has insofar as as comparing ourselves to other people, you 125 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:46.639 know, especially on online online platforms, you know, the whole the whole 126 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:52.679 spectrum of them, you know, people living these seamlessly, seamless, seemingly 127 00:11:54.440 --> 00:12:00.960 beautiful, glamorous, wealthy, successful lives. And I think it's natural and 128 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.879 normal for people to look at that and and, depending upon how well they're 129 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:11.720 doing or not doing uh in comparison, feel like rap, you know, 130 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:18.759 quite quite quite frankly, and to wonder, well, what is it that 131 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:24.279 I'm doing wrong? What is it about me that is that isn't good enough, 132 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:33.200 that isn't enough to have any semblance of this sort of apparent success. 133 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:35.440 And you know, there are a couple of couple of dynamics at play there. 134 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:41.240 We know that, you know, what's presented online often is superficial and 135 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:48.039 inaccurate. It certainly isn't the whole story. But also it's that that act 136 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:54.440 of comparison, which I think is a function of human nature, that that 137 00:12:54.679 --> 00:13:01.840 amplifies how you know, when people feel negatively or poorly about themselves, it 138 00:13:01.960 --> 00:13:09.799 pours gas on what maybe burning embers or perhaps a small fire at that point 139 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:15.919 that helps to ignite a conflagration. Dan, you mentioned human nature, and 140 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:20.399 that's always fascinated me in part of this discussion. So let's flip that coin. 141 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.240 There are the people who are affected by the trolls, and then there 142 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:33.240 are the trolls. What motivates someone to find pleasure in causing damage to other 143 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:39.480 people, especially anonymously like that. It seems so craven and cowardly to most 144 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.639 normal thinking people, I would think, But yet there are so many people 145 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:50.519 that obviously gain some type of perverse pleasure out of doing that. Where does 146 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:56.480 that come from? What's happening there? That's that's a that's a great question, 147 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:03.840 you know of one of the but in a really unhealthy, unfortunate way. 148 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:09.240 One of the most common ways for people to feel better about themselves is 149 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:15.279 to put other people down, you know, and and uh and you know, 150 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:22.720 portray themselves by virtue of putting someone else down, by by being critical, 151 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:28.600 abusive, cruel, and so forth. They put they put themselves up. 152 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:35.759 But it really that ultimately it comes from a place of insecurity and because 153 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:41.000 if they you know, people who truly have a sense of security and a 154 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:46.720 healthy self esteem and sense of self worth, they don't need to put other 155 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:48.840 people down. You know, it's you know, we can we can be 156 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.360 critical, Uh, we can disagree, you know, ideally the you know, 157 00:14:54.679 --> 00:15:00.440 if we're critical, we want to be as constructive as as possible to 158 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:05.200 attack people in a way. That rule and uh, and you know it 159 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:15.960 deeply unkind sadistic that that is, that is a function of of of real 160 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:22.440 unhappiness, you know, and and and and and and one way unhappiness plays 161 00:15:22.519 --> 00:15:28.759 out is that you know that that idea that misery loves company, and so 162 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:35.720 people tend to take out their own unhappiness by spilling it over onto other people. 163 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:39.080 And you know, it kind of attracts to that adage that hurt people 164 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:45.440 hurt people, people who are who are hurt, who are wounded in various 165 00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:48.200 ways, which every which everyone is to an extent, you know, no 166 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:54.159 one, no one grows up without some degree of damage. But how people 167 00:15:54.639 --> 00:16:00.320 how people deal with that, how they react to it or or respond onto 168 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:07.120 it, and do work intentionally to heal in connection with it, varies, 169 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:11.320 varies, dramatically. Some people grow beyond it. Some people are effectively held 170 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:17.120 captive by it throughout their lives. Well, you know, it's a perfect 171 00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:19.360 segue into a point that I wanted to make, or the number two points 172 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:26.720 that we made in our opening with the statistics that how many people think about 173 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.720 suicide? And even though the number was here was put in twenty twenty, 174 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:38.679 an estimated twelve point three million Americans seriously considered or thought about suicide that might 175 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:44.120 have been for the year. Is it kind of safe to say then that 176 00:16:44.320 --> 00:16:48.080 at some point in virtually all of our lives, that thought, when we've 177 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:55.159 been so down, so miserable, that that thought hasn't at least flashed into 178 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:00.679 the front of our minds. I mean, is that hyperboles that kind of 179 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.839 most of us have had that experience. I you know, I don't think 180 00:17:03.839 --> 00:17:10.640 it's hyperbole, frank in that in that over the course of a person's lifetime, 181 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:15.920 I think I think more people than not, if not the majority of 182 00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:26.359 people. It the idea crosses their cognitive screen. It it crosses their their 183 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.480 thought their thought stream at one point or another. And uh, you know, 184 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:36.359 like like especially when people are young, you know, you know, 185 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:41.559 teenagers, in particular, young adults trying to find their way in the world. 186 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.440 Who the hell am I? How do I fit in to? You 187 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.839 know, to wonder, you know, and what what's it worth? And 188 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:53.200 you know, I'm gonna We're gonna die anyway, so so what's so what's 189 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.759 the point? And sometimes kids, you know, much younger, like you 190 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:02.240 know, the stats you read included that you know, among kids ages ten 191 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:07.759 to fourteen, the second leading cause of death. But you know, when 192 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:15.079 when people grow up in extreme poverty, when there's homelessness or intermittent homelessness, 193 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:23.880 when people live in dangerous circumstances and are subjected to to abuse and violence, 194 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:32.240 whether that's predominantly physical or verbal and emotional, and you know, and there 195 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:37.200 they live in a state of ongoing trauma. To think about it is not 196 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:45.200 is not surprising, but also there is there is a real range that's important 197 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:51.680 to be aware of when it comes to suicidal thinking. So called suicidal ideation 198 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.000 is the is the clinical term, and and it differentiates between for example, 199 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.680 you know, I'd rather not I'd rather not be here. What's the point? 200 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:07.519 You know, I I wish I could just not wake up tomorrow morning? 201 00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:14.480 Kind of thing which is very passive. In contrast, too, I'm 202 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:22.240 seriously thinking about doing something to self harm or or or in my life, 203 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:27.920 and that that actually gets if that's okay to to uh, how to how 204 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:34.480 to tell if someone is at at at real, at real risk that you 205 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:41.400 know that I do professionally, I've I've had to hospitalize clients from time to 206 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:45.319 time who were at at genuine risk of hurting themselves. You know, it's 207 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:51.359 something that you avoids as much as as much as possible. But but with 208 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:56.720 this assessment outline, so to say, anyone can get a sense of the 209 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:03.119 extent to which someone may be at greater risk. Is that okay to go 210 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.160 with that? Yeah, well, let's let's do that. It's perfect. 211 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:08.039 It was on my list to ask, but there was no particular order. 212 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:12.079 As the conversation comes up, let's go with it because it's very important. 213 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:18.160 Also, when do people cross that line? Is it something that others can 214 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:19.680 be aware of? What is it? What is it that we should look 215 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:26.039 for? Then? Well, just two really, aside from the things that 216 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:36.200 we've talked about, the two most most important and greatest risk factors are include 217 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:44.559 previous attempts. If someone has made an actual attempt to hurt themselves in a 218 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:51.279 way where they could kill themselves, where they a suicide attempt, they're they're 219 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:55.839 at much greater risk than someone who has never made an attempt. And when 220 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.240 people have made one attempt, it's it's more likely than not that there be 221 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.400 a second attempt at some point, although that you know, sometimes sometimes one 222 00:21:06.519 --> 00:21:11.960 is enough for people. But the single greatest risk factor, and this is 223 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:17.960 so important for people to be aware of, is having an extremely close relative, 224 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:27.119 most notably a parent who has committed suicide. That automatically puts people at 225 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:34.599 much much greater risk to seriously consider it, to make an attempt and and 226 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:44.039 to actually do it than any other risk factory by far, because it normalizes 227 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:51.759 it, it makes it seem like a reasonable option. And parents, i 228 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.720 mean kids tend to become like their parents in various ways, take on some 229 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:03.200 of their qualities and attributes as they get older. Anyway, it's a psychological 230 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.799 process called identification, and sometimes it happens by virtue of you know, some 231 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:12.359 of it may be genetic, some of it is is social learning and observation, 232 00:22:12.759 --> 00:22:19.119 but some of it also is the the need, the desire to be 233 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:26.319 like one's parents to connect with them in that in that particular way. So 234 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.400 that's you know, when when people are are thinking about it and they have 235 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:37.960 kids, that that hopefully can give them some very serious pause as you know, 236 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.920 they may if if they didn't have kids, all right, then then 237 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:47.759 then they might think more seriously about it. But knowing that it automatically puts 238 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:52.880 their kids at much greater risk and is so damaging to kids, it leaves 239 00:22:52.920 --> 00:23:00.839 this really horrific legacy of additional damage and and and wounded. So for what 240 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:07.799 about actual behaviors? And I mean, because we all get depressed if that's 241 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.599 what goes without saying where you know, real, I'm really down today, 242 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:15.920 you know. And that's one thing is again, is there some kind of 243 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.160 and it doesn't necessarily have to be obvious, but some kind of line to 244 00:23:19.279 --> 00:23:26.079 look for. That's that a young or any person that you're familiar with is 245 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.359 exhibiting certain behaviors that should be of greater concern than just yeah, you're a 246 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.559 little depressed. The sun will come up tomorrow. You know, you can 247 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.119 look for any number of means. The sun will come up tomorrow. Sun 248 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.359 always comes out, And that's one thing. But that's what not necessarily with 249 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.759 someone who's contemplating suicide really wants to hear. So, what are what can 250 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:52.519 we look for in people that say we've got to do something here? Well, 251 00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:56.599 so so that you know, assessment that rough assessment outline. So to 252 00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:04.279 what extent is someone thinking or have they thought about trying trying to kill themselves? 253 00:24:04.519 --> 00:24:10.200 And you know, sometimes people think when they see someone who's you know, 254 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:15.200 someone who they care about, who's depressed or struggling, seeming to withdraw 255 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.359 and socially isolate, well, I don't want to I don't want to ask 256 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:23.720 because maybe it'll put the thought in their head. And that's bullcrapt that will. 257 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:30.720 That will. No one can ever get someone to think about suicide if 258 00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:37.480 they aren't already. So, so asking if some you know, are you 259 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.839 are you thinking about hurting yourself? Are you thinking about killing yourself? It 260 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:48.640 will never If it's not there, they'll simply they'll simply say no. And 261 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.400 if it is there, then it's then then you know, then then it's 262 00:24:52.599 --> 00:25:00.160 important information that you can begin the process of potentially doing something with. But 263 00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:04.400 so so, if if they if they if they answer in the affirmative to 264 00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:14.000 suicidal thoughts, then do they have a specific plan, So is just just 265 00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:18.799 a thought, you know, again a passive I'd rather not not be here, 266 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:22.279 the world would be better without me. I'd rather just you know, 267 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:26.880 go to sleep and not wake up, or or yeah, I'm I'm I'm 268 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:34.440 thinking of walking into traffic or getting a gun, or hanging myself. So 269 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:38.240 is you know, is there a specific plan? And then the next step 270 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:44.200 is how lethal is that? Is that plan? You know, walking out 271 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:51.480 into traffic obviously pretty lethal, hanging potentially very lethal, a gun absolutely, 272 00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:56.160 drug, drug overdose, That's that that's you know, not quite as as 273 00:25:56.599 --> 00:26:03.240 as definite do And then do they have access to the ability to carry out 274 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:07.400 that plan? So, if for instance, someone says, well, you 275 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.359 know, I'm gonna I'm gonna lay down on a train track, but they 276 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:15.960 don't live anywhere near where there's a train, you know, they're they're fifty 277 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.920 or one hundred miles away from the nearest train, then they're at somewhat less 278 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:26.160 risk if they have thoughts but not a specific plan. They're at less risk 279 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.519 if they have a specific plan. But it's like, well, you know, 280 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.839 i'm my my my plan is that I'm going to get my dog to 281 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.880 lick me to death, because because there are germs and the dog saliva, 282 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.799 you know, you have to you know, there's less to worry about there 283 00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:48.680 than with with a with a plan with a high degree of lethality. And 284 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.559 then after all that access including access to the means to carry the plan out. 285 00:26:53.000 --> 00:26:57.200 How committed are they? Is this something that they're still just thinking about 286 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:03.519 or are they intent when doing it? And you know, I don't know 287 00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.720 if it was at our our our our preface or at the beginning, but 288 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:11.640 one of the things you were interested in knowing was, you know, why 289 00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:18.519 is it that boys males tend to commit suicide? Questions mails, Well, 290 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:27.480 it's it's almost a trick question insofar as as females actually attempt suicide more frequently 291 00:27:27.559 --> 00:27:33.640 than males, But males are better at it. And there's there's, there's 292 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.480 and and that, and there's there's no uh, there's no sexism there. 293 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:47.799 It's it's simply that the means that males use, as a generalization, tends 294 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:55.440 to be more lethal. Specifically, men use guns much more frequently than women 295 00:27:55.480 --> 00:28:02.160 do, and obviously guns have a very high degree of lethal And that leads 296 00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:07.759 me to another question. That's loving this conversation. Why do some people choose 297 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:14.359 gruesome I mean downright gruzo. I my girlfriend I tease each other, you 298 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.519 know, if I get to the point where you know, I'm so old 299 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:19.359 and feeble, and I'll say, you can do me in, but just 300 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:23.200 don't make it violent, you know that kind of thing. Yet some people 301 00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:30.000 seem to choose methods that are exceptionally violent. You mentioned walking into traffic. 302 00:28:30.039 --> 00:28:33.960 I mean there are stories of people who'll actually go in front of a train. 303 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.079 Just the very thought of it is horrifying. And so it's not only 304 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:45.640 the act of ending, it's doing it in a way that's so dramatic and 305 00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:51.480 violent. Is that a statement that someone is making. Tell us a little 306 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:55.759 more about that, Well, that's that's also an excellent question. Sometimes it's 307 00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:03.200 a statement. Sometimes it's just what occurred to them. But typically, you 308 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:07.400 know, from a psychological perspective, there's a there's there's a you know a 309 00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:14.720 degree of correlation between how violent the method is and the extent to which uh 310 00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:22.839 they want to uh do themselves, do themselves complete damage. They want to 311 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:32.079 truly destroy themselves because they dislike themselves and their lives. They're in so much 312 00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:37.480 pain to that extent. You know, for instance, I had a I 313 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:44.359 had a friend. This was probably in the nineties, so so we were 314 00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:51.079 in our early to mid thirties, and he was a friend who I actually 315 00:29:51.079 --> 00:29:55.799 went to kindergarten with him and a dear friend from high school. And among 316 00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:59.440 other things, he got, you know, he got horrifically strung out on 317 00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:04.119 crack uh and and even with several episodes of treatment, didn't seem to be 318 00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:14.480 able to overcome it. And he ended up parking his car behind the supermarket, 319 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:17.240 you know, on in the little town that we grew up in on 320 00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:25.359 Long Island and stabbing himself in the heart, plunged a knife into his chest, 321 00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:30.880 which is which is a really uncommon way to kill oneself. But the 322 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:37.039 extent to which he must have disliked himself, been in so much pain and 323 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:45.519 wanted to do that kind of damage to himself is uh is really profound, 324 00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:49.599 you know, and with and with with and so you know, sometimes people 325 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:55.400 will do it in places where they know they're going to be found by a 326 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:59.839 family member, you know. Sometimes it's a partner, sometimes it's a it's 327 00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:04.960 a child. And and you can't you can't unsee something like that. You 328 00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:11.519 know, psychologically, for in terms of traumatic experience, you can't unwring that 329 00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:19.799 bell when when say, someone blows their brains out and and a partner or 330 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:26.880 a child finds that and then you know, and that takes place in one's 331 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:32.119 in one's home home environment, that's you know, so the legacy that that 332 00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:36.039 kind of thing leaves to those that are left behind, I think, you 333 00:31:36.079 --> 00:31:40.640 know, partly it's it may be you know, some a function of of 334 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:45.200 you know, of of wanting everyone to know the kind of pain that that 335 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.039 they were in and uh and and that this was what they had to do 336 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:57.240 in a very attention arresting sort of way. But also it's it's an indication 337 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:07.200 of their being. So they had so much funnel vision that that this was 338 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.319 the only thing they could think to do, and it was the way that 339 00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.759 they that they did it. So I think that it can it can go 340 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:22.519 either of those ways. Jennu mentioned how important ego is a sense of self 341 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.519 worth. How do we balance and we had a little fun before we both 342 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:30.000 came on. We came on the ear both big sports fans, and we 343 00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:35.559 were talking about Dion Sanders, who has a very uh I'll put it into 344 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.160 kindly healthy ego, and I related a story we don't necessarily have to stay 345 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:45.000 here, which is kind of the the extreme. But what makes for a 346 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:50.559 healthy ego A good a truly healthy sense of self, which what should people 347 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.720 look for in themselves and others to actually say, well, that's kind of 348 00:32:54.720 --> 00:33:00.880 a healthy human being. Wow, that's uh. We we could we could 349 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:07.920 spend a couple of episodes on on that alone, Frank, But ultimately it 350 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:17.319 comes down to being able to accept oneself. And you know, so again, 351 00:33:17.519 --> 00:33:27.200 as I mentioned before, everyone, everyone has various wounds. Everyone has 352 00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:36.920 degrees of of emotional and experiential damage. And and and it begins from the 353 00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:42.519 time that we're very young, and and and our wounds, these they become, 354 00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.400 you know, they manifest as inner demons of sorts, and they take 355 00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:52.680 the form of things that have happened to us throughout our lives. But again, 356 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.720 starting from the time that we were very young, things that we have 357 00:33:57.960 --> 00:34:02.160 done, our own acts, our own behaviors, including to other people, 358 00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:09.639 and things about ourselves and our lives, which can include our physical appearance, 359 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:19.519 limitations that we may that we may legitimately have, you know, health issues, 360 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:25.599 disabilities, other other kinds of challenges, and so you know, the 361 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:34.000 way that most people deal with their with their various wounds or their their inner 362 00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:39.679 demons is on two extremes. They avoid them or refuse to acknowledge them. 363 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:45.360 You know, they're they're in denial and connection with them, or they fight 364 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:52.280 with them. They're they're overwhelmed by them. They engage them in a continuous 365 00:34:52.440 --> 00:35:00.320 battle, which you know plays out through conflict with other people, through through 366 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:09.039 violent or reckless or aggressive behaviors, through alcohol and other drug use, various 367 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:15.559 various problematic ways. But it's also you know, people can only avoid that 368 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:22.440 stuff to a certain extent. Avoidance as a strategy only only works temporarily. 369 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:27.880 It's kind of like the release valve and a pressure cooker. You know. 370 00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:30.079 The longer we avoid, we avoid the stuff we don't want to deal with. 371 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:34.840 But that doesn't mean it goes away. In fact, it's it's there 372 00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:42.440 gaining strength effectively, and at a certain point it comes out in explosive ways, 373 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.880 and people will experience the kinds of problems that I mentioned when they get 374 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:54.039 overwhelmed by them. But the path to a healthy sense of self is a 375 00:35:54.880 --> 00:36:07.480 middle path where we recognize, are consciously aware of our wounds, our various 376 00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:17.639 inner demons, and we allow ourselves we acknowledge them consciously, we allow ourselves 377 00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:28.000 to be present with them to learn how to and effectively practice having tea or 378 00:36:28.159 --> 00:36:32.800 coffee with them, ultimately making peace with them, you know, and and 379 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:38.679 there are there are so many different different methodologies that help to facilitate that, 380 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.880 some of which are self directed and can you know, include things like meditation 381 00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:52.400 and other mindfulness practices, yoga, uh you know, tai chi chi and 382 00:36:54.039 --> 00:37:04.239 and and so forth. You know, professional professional forms of therapy and and 383 00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:12.840 and you know, a wide range of different practices that help people become effectively 384 00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:20.760 become more comfortable in their own skin at at cognitive, emotional, physical, 385 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:27.320 and spiritual levels. Spiritual pursuits are very important in this regard as well. 386 00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:32.880 And so it's through so making peace with the things about ourselves that we struggle 387 00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:37.599 with again, things that have happened to us, things that we've done, 388 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:45.320 things about ourselves, these inner demons, making peace with them is the path 389 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:52.599 to self acceptance at depth. And that to me, you know, after 390 00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:58.880 thirty five years of being in the field of psychotherapy and in various ways, 391 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:07.760 represents perhaps the very deepest form of of healing, you know, to truly 392 00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:14.719 come to terms with and and learn how to make peace with ourselves at depth. 393 00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:16.760 And that you know, and and that said, it's not a it's 394 00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.840 not a destination. This is the work of a lifetime. It's ongoing, 395 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.960 you know. And we can be good for for weeks or months, and 396 00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:30.639 then you know, some sort of stuff hits the fan and we struggle a 397 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:36.559 little bit, and it becomes a process of trying to regain that balance, 398 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:40.679 course correct in various ways, so we're good again. You know, there's 399 00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:44.079 a lot of there's a lot of talk. You know, I'm in I'm 400 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:51.840 in twelve step recovery myself or over sixteen years now and in my particular twelve 401 00:38:51.880 --> 00:38:55.920 Step fellowship, and and and in various places you know, you here talk 402 00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:02.400 about self love and learning to love oneself and so forth and so on and 403 00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:07.880 uh and and this is my own line, by the way, to me, 404 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:13.920 self love is something that happens in the shower, the real the real 405 00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:17.400 work, you know, do do I I can get to a place where 406 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:23.519 I love certain things about myself, certain aspects of who I am and how 407 00:39:23.559 --> 00:39:28.239 I am. But I think I think self love that whole, the whole, 408 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:35.199 the whole. Uh. Language of it is is overblown and cliche and 409 00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:42.039 not necessarily helpful. I think the real work is about self acceptance to a 410 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:49.800 much greater extent, and to me that feels more more real and more realistic, 411 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.960 you know, and and and part of it is practicing self compassion, 412 00:39:54.559 --> 00:40:01.440 you know, being as kind, caring, generous of spirit, and compassionate 413 00:40:01.480 --> 00:40:07.039 with myself as I would be of someone who I care about. You know, 414 00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:14.760 so often we treat ourselves much more poorly than we would treat people that 415 00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.960 we care about, in terms of how we think about ourselves, the way 416 00:40:19.000 --> 00:40:22.239 we feel about ourselves, and so forth. Dan, we'll take a little 417 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:25.800 break here. This has been fabulous. When we come back, I would 418 00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:30.719 talk about some of the practical resources that are available to people who need help. 419 00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:34.360 I know they are. How do people reach out, where can they 420 00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:38.920 go things of that nature. You sear a lot about suicide hotlines and stuff, 421 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:43.880 so I know there are resources available where people can reach out and how 422 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:46.920 important it is to reach out. We'll talk a little bit about that on 423 00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:52.880 the tail end of this commercial break, so we'll be right back. Guys. 424 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:59.400 My guest is therapist and bestselling author Danny Major. It is Suicide Prevention 425 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:05.000 Awareness Month, and we're having a really intelligent conversation about suicide, about life 426 00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.119 really, because it's it's all a part of it. This is being Frank. 427 00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:10.840 We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, Frank 428 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:16.000 Lebono will be right back raft right after these grief commercial messages. Don't go 429 00:41:16.039 --> 00:41:22.000 anywhere yet. This is Hudson River Radio dot com. Bring a dash of 430 00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:25.400 green into your life. Check out the Many Shades of Green with Maxine, 431 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:30.920 Margat, Reuben and Malcolm Burman. Get informed about environmental issues and current events 432 00:41:31.000 --> 00:41:36.559 that affect us all. Pick a shade of green and raise your eco consciousness 433 00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:42.800 with the Many Shades of Green available on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, Spotify or 434 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:49.079 wherever you get your podcasts. You ought to be in movies, well, 435 00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:53.679 at least you should watch movies. The silver Screen Podcast talks about all aspects 436 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:59.800 of film and entertainment, current films, old films, how movies are made, 437 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:05.480 and interviews with moviemakers, authors and musicians too. Check out the silver 438 00:42:05.519 --> 00:42:10.360 Screen Podcast at Hudson River Radio dot com or wherever you get your podcasts, 439 00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:22.119 and go watch a movie Hudson River Radio dot com. You're back with Being 440 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:25.199 Frank. We're the only way to be is Frank. I'm your host, 441 00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:32.320 Frank Labono. We're discussing Suicide Prevention Awareness Month with my guest, Dan Major's 442 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:39.039 a therapist and best selling author frequently contributes to Psychology Today. Remember you can 443 00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:45.280 catch Being Frank wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Everything is archives, so 444 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.840 you can listen to any show anytime you want. Please check us out. 445 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:52.280 We think we have something to offer and this evening show we're taping this evening 446 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:57.559 whenever you're watching it, we certainly feel has a lot to offer. Dan 447 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:00.320 a couple more things before we finish one. I want to talk a little 448 00:43:00.320 --> 00:43:04.800 bit about resources. But before we get to that, and we were talking 449 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:13.239 about depression and people showing signs discussing possibly hurting themselves. But not too long 450 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:15.719 ago, there have been a number of people in the news who have wound 451 00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:22.039 up committing suicide. Anthony Burdaine comes to mind, Robin Williams comes to mind, 452 00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:28.440 very successful people who didn't necessarily at least publicly show the outward signs. 453 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:36.280 Yet obviously we're still struggling within. Could there possibly have been some trigger within 454 00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.519 that. In other words, looking beyond the success. And obviously success in 455 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:45.719 and of itself is not a cu role for everything because they took the hard 456 00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:52.239 way out, if you will, by committing suicide. So is there is 457 00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:57.159 there something that we can see that maybe something is wrong even though on the 458 00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:05.119 surface everything seems right. Well, you know, the that your point about 459 00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:15.239 how success is no safeguard or protection against against inner turmoil and pain is a 460 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.840 really important one, Frank, and it and it really does, you know, 461 00:44:20.519 --> 00:44:25.679 get back to this idea that everyone is wounded in various ways. Everyone 462 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:36.679 has sustained degrees of mental, emotional, spiritual damage on you know, over 463 00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:45.480 the course of their lives and and and even with the external trappings of fame, 464 00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:53.880 fortune, great great success, unless people do the work, you know, 465 00:44:54.039 --> 00:45:02.599 unless they're aware of the importance of doing the work of finding ways to 466 00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:10.079 make peace with those with and with and begin to heal those wounds come to 467 00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:19.239 you know, learn how to accept themselves in connection with with them that you 468 00:45:19.239 --> 00:45:25.719 know, how how that inner inner pain and turmoil plays out, Uh, 469 00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:31.079 you know, can go in various directions, including self harm and suicide. 470 00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:35.719 But you know, and it's and it's interesting. You know, the more 471 00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:45.159 we we we read after after the fact about Anthony Bourdain and his particular emotional 472 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:54.480 and interpersonal struggles and Robin Williams uh extensive long term struggle with serious depression. 473 00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:02.039 You know, the more the more we had context within which their their suicides 474 00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:08.719 became more more comprehensible, you know, not that not that, not that 475 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:15.159 it was, you know, we could understand it in general, but at 476 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:21.440 least it made a little bit more sense. But you know, other you 477 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:28.519 know, significant risk factors include no withdrawing from family and friends, from the 478 00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:37.159 social contacts and connections that people usually maintain. Often there's you know, it's 479 00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:43.480 not unusual for people who are seriously alcohol or other drug involved or addictive addicted 480 00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:51.599 to have thoughts about suicide or to or to to consider attempting suicide or to 481 00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:58.039 or to attempt it. Sometimes it's it's intentional, sometimes less intentional. But 482 00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:06.519 often people will increase their alcohol and drug use when they're more serious about suicidal 483 00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:15.920 intent. And that's that's another indication their their behavior may become more reckless or 484 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:23.440 more aggressive as an indicator that they care less about about themselves and what happens 485 00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:30.159 to them. And uh and and a telltale sign is someone who you know 486 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:36.320 is not say elderly, or does not have a terminal illness, and they 487 00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:42.119 start to give away their possessions. That's a that's an indicator that they have 488 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:47.400 made a decision and that this is something that they intend to do. As 489 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:52.199 a result, they no longer need whatever it is that they're giving away. 490 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:58.840 Right, So we we we know someone who was exhibiting those behaviors or we 491 00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:02.400 might feel them. Who do we reach out to? How do we reach 492 00:48:02.440 --> 00:48:07.360 out? What what's the best way to get help? And as quickly as 493 00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:10.159 possible because I know time can be a factor. Well, you know, 494 00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:22.239 if anyone who who who is is seriously concerned about their own welfare related to 495 00:48:22.280 --> 00:48:27.480 the possibility that they would that they would attempt to take their own lives, 496 00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:34.199 or someone who is concerned about someone else, you can always call nine one 497 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:39.320 one and you know, be clear as to your concern that this that that 498 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:45.920 that this person is at significant risk or I am at risk of of of 499 00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:51.360 committing suicide. And you know, you need to be able to provide information 500 00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:59.320 related to where where this person can be found and and and almost every police 501 00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:05.079 department it will send someone out to do a welfare check and and if they 502 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:08.079 if they get there, you know, the person can be convincing in terms 503 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:12.159 of no, you know, there's no issue here, person overreacted, so 504 00:49:12.280 --> 00:49:15.800 forth and so on. But if the police or any first responder in that 505 00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:20.239 in that case, you know, they'll ask questions. They know how to 506 00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:22.960 do, they know how to do basic assessments. Also, if they get 507 00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:29.559 a sense that someone is at real risk, they will take them to the 508 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:36.079 hospital and potentially involuntarily hospitalized out. You know. But the only thing that 509 00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:40.639 can happen at this point in time. People can't be hospitalized involuntarily because it's 510 00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:47.440 a it's a civil rights issue. So so it starts with a seventy two 511 00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:54.599 hour involuntary People can always agree to a voluntary admission if they're at that level 512 00:49:54.639 --> 00:50:02.079 of risk, but they can be involuntarily hospitalized in almost every state for seventy 513 00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:07.639 two hours, and then you know, towards the end of that seventy two 514 00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:13.800 hours, their level of risk is reassessed. Depending upon circumstance, they can 515 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:17.519 be held longer or they can be released at that point. But it's really 516 00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:23.320 important for people to be aware of that in the event that they or someone 517 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:30.760 who they care about they sense is at very serious, more urgent risk. 518 00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:36.239 Now, on a personal level, Dan, if you were confronted with someone 519 00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:42.360 who was, let's say, virtually in the process of committing suicide with either 520 00:50:42.840 --> 00:50:46.960 a weapon or stepping as you said, off into traffic or off of high 521 00:50:47.039 --> 00:50:53.960 building or something, or you know someone is in serious distress, what would 522 00:50:53.960 --> 00:50:58.559 you recommend to? What could you say? What could you do? Is 523 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:06.119 there anything? Is there any scientific approach? If you will there is, 524 00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:15.719 there isn't There isn't one universally recognized approach, But to you know, make 525 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:22.079 it clear that you are you are going to be present, You're gonna you're 526 00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:27.800 not going anywhere, You're going to stay with this person and be emotionally available 527 00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:34.239 and and you know, to you know, to be careful of what's said 528 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.320 in terms of you listen, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna be here with 529 00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:44.920 you, and do you know, I'm gonna do what whatever I need to 530 00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:49.519 do, whatever I can do in order to help keep you safe. And 531 00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:53.199 if that means being here, you know, it's not necessarily convenient, but 532 00:51:53.199 --> 00:52:00.480 but this is an extreme circumstance or calling for additional assistance. That's that's what's 533 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:06.480 critical, you know. But it's it's also really important to know that if 534 00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:14.480 someone is truly committed to killing themselves, uh, they may well find a 535 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:20.119 way to do it, because again, no one is going to be hospitalized 536 00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:25.760 for weeks or months at this point, and no one can be supervised, 537 00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:31.239 you know, one hundred percent of the time. So there, so there 538 00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:38.719 are limitations to our our ability to control such things. That and that said, 539 00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.039 all we can do is is the best we can. But in terms 540 00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.599 of other resources, Franks, so you know, the National Suicide Hotline is 541 00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:54.039 nine eight eight dial nine eight eight. There is someone who will answer the 542 00:52:54.079 --> 00:53:02.239 phone and is trained to deal with these kinds of circumstances. There's the the 543 00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:09.000 Suicide Prevention Resource Center, which people can look up online, and that's based 544 00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:15.400 at the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, and it's it's funded in part 545 00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:22.960 through through the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration of the United States, 546 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:27.079 which is part of the Department of Health in Human Services, you know, 547 00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:30.400 in the in the in the in the federal government, you know. And 548 00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:35.239 it's also important just to be a where in general, this is beyond the 549 00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:40.920 scope of what most people are able to influence, but there are systemic things 550 00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:49.400 that contribute that can contribute either to suicide prevention or to the greater likelihood of 551 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:55.079 suicide. You know, suicide prevention is manifest in things like affordable housing, 552 00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:06.599 livable wages, excess healthcare that includes access to mental health and substance abuse treatment. 553 00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:14.840 And the reality is that that those those areas of what can help make 554 00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:24.000 a healthy whole and UH and and healed life are often incredibly difficult for many 555 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:30.239 people to find and to and to hold onto it. And I want to 556 00:54:30.280 --> 00:54:36.559 thank you so much for being Frank with your intelligent and important conversations evening. 557 00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:39.800 This was absolutely terrific, gave so much solid information. I really can't thank 558 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:45.440 you enough. Really, it's uh, you know again, I'm I'm really 559 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:50.320 happy to be here, Frank. It's it's my pleasure. And you know, 560 00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:57.239 any anytime I can contribute to intelligent conversation, I welcome it, because 561 00:54:57.679 --> 00:55:00.960 you know, there are so many places where it's really hard to come by. 562 00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:06.559 Careful I hold you to that too, And of course we offer special 563 00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:09.039 thanks to our listeners who take the time to give us a voice in their 564 00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:12.800 lives. It's important it really is, at least it is to me. 565 00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.639 And remember we offer a fresh topic every week and you can catch us wherever 566 00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:22.079 and whenever you get your favorite podcasts. Remember we're on Apple, Spotify, 567 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:25.519 iHeart Radio, Speaker and all the others. You can also check us out 568 00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:30.480 on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page. Like us, hopefully leave us a 569 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:37.280 comment. We also ask you to consider sharing being frank with others. Well, 570 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:39.039 you know, I love you with two nuggets, as I say, 571 00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:44.440 a slogan and some music. First, the slogan is and I think it's 572 00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:49.280 very appropriate. It comes from Barack Obama. So whennyone out there who's hurting, 573 00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.000 it's not a sign of weakness to ask for help. It's a sign 574 00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:57.000 of strength, simple enough. And it's right there, all right. It's 575 00:55:57.039 --> 00:56:00.760 some great music from one of my favorite bansies. Guys are great Jerry Scringe, 576 00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:06.719 Mike OLIVERI and the boys. Uh they are the Slippery Chickens. And 577 00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:10.199 here's their tune, Bad Bad Boy. You're gonna you're really going to enjoy 578 00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.960 it. Thanks again for being frank with me. I'm your host, Frank 579 00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:19.920 Lebono, and we'll see you next time. Well, I'm a bad pappoll 580 00:56:22.119 --> 00:56:34.159 on bad pap boy on the bad papo all A bad back boy will if 581 00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:39.360 birds win I be. I'm going to decline it all for you because I'm 582 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:49.119 a bad pep boy. I'm a bad pep boy on the bad path bare 583 00:56:51.039 --> 00:56:59.079 all the bad pay boy. We'll take a red seal ball sail phone call. 584 00:57:02.320 --> 00:57:12.039 Because I'm a bad papa. I'm a sad papall. I'm sad name 585 00:57:12.320 --> 00:59:04.719 before all of fair baball girls have. I put takes on a chair. 586 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:07.800 I do things on a day. I always look out a pair. I 587 00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:13.199 get my hamburgers. Ray up, Oh he's on a chair. I don't 588 00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:23.639 have to prayer. I sleep, be in play. Because I'm a bad 589 00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:36.440 bad boy. I'm a bad bad boy on the bad bad bad bad boy. 590 00:59:38.360 --> 00:59:54.760 I'm a baby Hey hey, hey day, Oh why a baby? 591 00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:53.360 Hey hey day? Boy boy booge never boy boy. This is Hudson River 592 01:00:53.480 --> 01:00:55.679 Radio dot com.