WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:12.320 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, we're returning 2 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:15.560 to a topic that I've touched on a number of times, but it's been 3 00:00:15.560 --> 00:00:19.760 a while since we did a full episode on it. And after Lady ahab 4 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:25.640 Ak Maiden ah Ahab, person of many different names, but the awesome content 5 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:28.640 creator and writer who joined me to talk about Moby Dick. One of the 6 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:32.600 things we got into in that conversation was Moby Dick and disability, and this 7 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:35.960 I thought was a great time really to talk about. We've been talking for 8 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:41.960 a while about wanting to do a full episode on how disability is treated in 9 00:00:42.679 --> 00:00:46.560 science fiction and fantasy and the kind of stories that geeks love, and I've 10 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:48.920 had some stuff going on, They've had some stuff going on, and we 11 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.640 thought this is just a great time to really dive into it. So let 12 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.679 me just first say hello, welcome, to introduce yourself. Those who haven't 13 00:00:55.679 --> 00:00:58.920 heard you before, Hi, thank you. My name is Aka or Ahab. 14 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.079 I go buy both and internet spaces. I am a recently graduated college 15 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:08.040 student. I have a degree in philosophy with a rhetoric emphasis and you know 16 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:12.519 what emphasis on distability studies as well. And now I'm doing marketing and communications 17 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:18.959 for a liberal arts college in the West. So awesome, awesome. Well, 18 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:21.840 you know, I've always enjoyed your posting, really enjoyed having you on 19 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:23.560 for AHAB, and just thought this would a great thing to bring it back 20 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:26.879 for. Thanks. Yeah, I'm super happy to be here. Let me 21 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:29.920 start with what's going to be kind of a broad question, but I think 22 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:32.799 can kind of help set the tone for a lot of what we're talking about. 23 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:36.760 I think we, most of my listeners probably at this point, degree 24 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:40.439 that representation matters across the board. But I'd love to hear from you. 25 00:01:41.319 --> 00:01:45.879 Why do you think it's particularly important that we discuss representation and when it's done 26 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:49.799 right and also when it's done really wrong in science fiction, superhero fantasy, 27 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.519 like the kind of stories that we gee extend to love. I think it 28 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.560 starts with just a question of like basic human representation and meaning to see people 29 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.799 who look like us in various forms of media. I think sci fi is 30 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:07.159 a particular media type where we're looking towards the future and worlds that we want 31 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.599 and things that we're imagining and hoping to bring into being, and excluding disabled 32 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.599 bodies and voices from that particular act of imagining is really harmful, and so 33 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:20.439 evaluating when disability does show up and making sure that it's showing up regularly and 34 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:24.039 in positive ways is really important because sci fi specifically is like imagining a world 35 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:30.120 that we're trying to bring into the present. Yeah. I think that's a 36 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.280 really good way to put it. One of the things that I think, 37 00:02:34.319 --> 00:02:37.400 the kind of thing that I first started to really notice the way disability is 38 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:42.680 treated in science fiction is that so much of it science fiction and also superhero 39 00:02:42.680 --> 00:02:46.400 media and things like that, so much of it is about the body. 40 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:53.120 It's about either superpowers or technology or maybe in more of a fantasy setting, 41 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:57.840 magic, but it's about making the body be able to be a super soldier 42 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:02.360 or able to do this physical thing or that physical thing and you know, 43 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:07.360 or or that's allowing you to be this like incredibly powerful night or wizard or 44 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:13.400 witch or whatever it is. And so often in those stories there's this idea 45 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:15.520 of that part of what you're able to do is reach this idea of physical 46 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:21.560 perfection. And I get the idea of it, but I think there can 47 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:24.680 be a really dangerous kind of you know, subtext there of like, you 48 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:29.159 know, because anything it's broken or bad with the body is you know, 49 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.000 playing into some of the worst kind of ideas of disability, and you know 50 00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:36.240 that like going back to things where like people thought disability was a sign of 51 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.800 a curse from God, or that you know, you were unworthy, or 52 00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.520 that more recently that you were you know, like bad genetics and so should 53 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:44.800 be like written out of the gene code and you know all this kind of 54 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.479 horrible stuff. Yeah, I mean I think that it's definitely I think that 55 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.120 a lot of sci fi is is incredibly medicalized, and so that you know, 56 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.039 what you're saying about the body all makes sense that the trajectory is then 57 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.879 what is the ideal that we're striving for a human level, Like what is 58 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:05.879 the kind of perfectly imagined future for the human body and how can we push 59 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.879 the limits of that and what is it? And then you know, the 60 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.280 moral message that gets roped in there is like how do you be the best 61 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:15.719 person you can morally? And then really tightly interconnect to that with like these 62 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:25.000 physical capabilities that are fantastical and beyond discope of normalcy. And I think it 63 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:31.000 to me whole that whole thing explodes in a really particularly interesting way that on 64 00:04:31.040 --> 00:04:34.439 the one hand, who races a lot of disabilities that do exist now and 65 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:41.560 maybe also creates disabilities that don't exist now in these fantasy spaces and doesn't handle 66 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:45.519 either particularly well historically. But we're starting to see it get handled better as 67 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.720 people are becoming more conscious of these things, for sure. For sure, 68 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:54.720 Like if you watch The Boys, I love a lot of parts of that 69 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:58.279 show, especially the idea that it's not like there's four or five superheroes. 70 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.519 It's like there's this entire group of humanity that is and I think X one 71 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:06.319 also deals with this a little bit, but I could easily understand, and 72 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.639 I think some of the superpowered people go to this route of basically feeling like 73 00:05:10.759 --> 00:05:15.040 not having a superpower is a disability that now that is the definition of physical 74 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.480 health, you know, yeah, I mean in discussions of social model of 75 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:20.519 disability, the idea has always been in a world where everyone can fly, 76 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:25.000 there are no stairs, which makes anyone who can't fly unable to reach the 77 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:28.519 second floor, which is like an analogy that gets used a lot for wheelchair 78 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:30.519 users, which you know, I myself am. I know you use a 79 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:35.399 roetual sometimes and I think that analogy transfers into sci fi a lot of the 80 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:41.399 time in particular ways, and then there's just kind of no address of it. 81 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:45.480 Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up. That's kind of the 82 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.519 other point I was going to work towards, you know, and just to 83 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:51.680 you have more of an academic background on this than I do, So let 84 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.040 me kind of spell this out. And I think this fits into the sea 85 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:59.800 you're talking about, or maybe it's just its own thing. But one of 86 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:03.199 the ideas that I've really hopped on most in terms of disability theory is the 87 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:08.120 idea that you know, if you have a color blind person, or you 88 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:13.600 know a person who has visual disabilities and they're having trouble reading something, the 89 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:16.879 question is like do we fix their eyes or do we fix the type font 90 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:21.160 and the type print? That if a wheelchair using person can't get into a 91 00:06:21.199 --> 00:06:26.759 building, do you fix the person or do you fix the building? Yeah, 92 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.720 you know, and that this is I tend to hate the phrase differently 93 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:35.000 able because I think it's often used in a very patronizing way, But I 94 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:39.279 like one of the core ideas of it, which is that instead of saying 95 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:45.360 there is an ideal of like human bodily health that instead it's recognizing like, 96 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:48.680 no, there's differences, you know, I mean, go ahead of no. 97 00:06:48.759 --> 00:06:50.480 I was just going to say, like, I absolutely agree. I 98 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:54.240 think one of the big shifts that had to happen for me, both in 99 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.920 an intellectual academic space and in a kind of more personal space when when coming 100 00:06:58.959 --> 00:07:02.680 to terms of what it meant to be disabled, was that disability, like 101 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:12.079 the disks of disability, means not able, but the reasoning for not being 102 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.759 able is not necessarily located in like me, it's not a personal responsibility. 103 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:21.800 It's a like an immediate flaw with my body. It's a flaw with the 104 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.560 construction of the world around me. And obviously there are elements of my body 105 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.560 that like, yeah, it definitely sucks to have chronic pain and like those 106 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.399 kinds of things. But at the end of the day, everybody has tools. 107 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:35.800 And if you took away the tools that a regular person has and you 108 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:42.519 left them just by themselves in any environment, they would struggle. Because we're 109 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:47.120 in a society where everybody relies on a socially constructed framework that gives them the 110 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:51.240 ability to do things like you know, walk out in public and not frees 111 00:07:51.319 --> 00:07:57.079 to death and eat and write and speak and type and access you know, 112 00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:01.199 all these other things, and there's nobody out there who's not using these tools. 113 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:03.920 Yeah, I think that's such a good point, and especially if you 114 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:07.920 put it because we're not just talking about like high technology. We're talking about 115 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.279 like you know, coats or you know, knives and forks, or just 116 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.680 the ability to like preserve food or that's assaulting it or you know, freezing 117 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.480 it or whatever. And I think one of the things that can happen with 118 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:24.000 science fiction a lot is that either a the world is presented as though there's 119 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.000 just no one with disabilities anymore, which is, you know, it's very 120 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.000 it's the medical model as opposed to the social model. And as you're talking 121 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.799 about it, I think it's it's like it makes a lot of sense, 122 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.039 I think, especially to non disabled people, but it's very much a racer, 123 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:41.120 especially to you know, because like I do wish I still had my 124 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.559 leg. But I know many other people for whom you know, they experience 125 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.759 the world in a different way than other people, particularly I think because I 126 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:52.799 lost mine halfay through my life. I think for a lot of people who 127 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:58.360 are born certain differences, they're like no, this is better. I'm happy 128 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.360 that I'm different. You know, I just wish that, as you said, 129 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:03.799 the world wasn't built for other people, which to give an analogy that 130 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:09.039 maybe a lot of other people can relate to a lot of you may be 131 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:11.080 young to remember this, a lot of my listeners may well be. But 132 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:16.480 I went to school at a time when all of the desks were right handed, 133 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:18.720 because it was just that's what was aptly assumed. I remember, like 134 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:22.399 I got to was my second year of high school when they started changing that. 135 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:26.799 We started having left handed desks and things like that. But it was 136 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.720 a real shift because till then, the world wasn't built for me. And 137 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.120 there's still a lot of ways in which you know, I love playing guitar, 138 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:37.679 but I could learn to play guitar left handed. But then, like 139 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.600 any time a friend like hands me a guitar I camp fire, I probably 140 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.440 can't play it, or I could flip down, or you know, teach 141 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.039 my hands do something weird. And I don't think left handed is is considered 142 00:09:48.039 --> 00:09:52.720 a disability today. One hundred years ago, it probably definitely was, and 143 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.200 it was, you know, something that like we trained out of people, 144 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:01.480 And so I think that's problematic. I also think the and I've talked about 145 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.879 Daredevil as an example of this, but there's many others situations where people either 146 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.919 use science fiction or magic or some other power that they present a disabled character, 147 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.720 but then basically like the magic or the superpower makes the disability go away. 148 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.360 Yeah, I think that's that's like one of the things that I I 149 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:26.039 don't like to see in media when the when the technology or the magic just 150 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:31.080 makes it go away. I think, you know, using like a what 151 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.679 I what I tend to do is use a combination, which is a medical 152 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.360 social model. Right, so there are medical conditions that mean certain people are 153 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:39.120 going to experience like higher levels of pain, which is going only to higher 154 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:43.399 levels of fatigue, which just means less time in your day. And that's 155 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.279 like not something society can resolve. But one of the like big examples in 156 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.480 something like Daredevil or even something like you know in Star Wars media, when 157 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:58.320 people lose limbs. The idea that you could replace it with technology and then 158 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:03.399 it's not a disability anymore is not completely unrealistic. It's just not being handled 159 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:09.279 critically because we don't consider people who require glasses to be disabled in you know, 160 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:13.399 most of modern society, or at least in you know America, Like 161 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.480 when when you go to check the disability box, when you know, filling 162 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.200 out paperwork for an application for something, if you have glasses, that's not 163 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.960 something you're considering, even though by all means, you know, it's vision 164 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:26.960 impairment and that is, you know, considered a disability when it goes past 165 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.600 a certain extent. Just that we've we've got the technology to basically mean that 166 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.360 it's not impacting your daily life. And that's something about the definition of disability 167 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.759 that's really wishy washy. I think the problem for me in in sci fi 168 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:45.519 context is when oh, all the disabilities we know of are erased and none 169 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:48.919 of the new ones are being considered, and none of the small, nitty, 170 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.519 degreety details are being considered. You know, if you can have a 171 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:56.000 limb replace to your technology, that doesn't mean you're not going to have different 172 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:58.679 like sensory motor in like experiences. It doesn't mean you're not gonna have to 173 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:01.360 clean upkeep, but doesn't mean it's not going to cost more. In the 174 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:05.759 same way that people with glasses have to be more aware of, like not 175 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:09.279 scratching them cleaning them, paying for them to get replaced, those kinds of 176 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.440 things. It just doesn't necessarily make for like interesting storytelling unless you're paying a 177 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:18.240 lot of attention to it. Yeah, it's funny. When you brought up 178 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.279 that point about Star Wars and limb replacement, I realized, like, you 179 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:24.759 know, part is maybe because I saw, like I originally watched Star Wars 180 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.360 when I was very young, and for those who don't know, I lost 181 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.960 my leg when I was twenty one, so like much later. But even 182 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.039 when I rewatched and rewatched, I never saw those characters and thought, oh, 183 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:39.519 that person is an amputee, Like, yeah, yep, because you're 184 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.240 right, because for me, I have a prosthetic leg and when things are 185 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.559 working well, I can often wear it, and a lot of people tell 186 00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.360 me like, oh, you pass like I would have never known, which 187 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:54.399 is not the compliment people think it is, but more to the point that 188 00:12:54.559 --> 00:13:01.240 idea that I think so often gets wrapped up in that like, but I 189 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:03.840 think more to the point is just that yeah, every day I have to 190 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:07.399 clean it. Every day, I have to be careful about it. I 191 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.679 have gained some weight recently, not a huge amount like another like ten pounds 192 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:15.600 or so, but now my leg has trouble fitting the way it used to. 193 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.519 When the weather gets hot or the weather gets too cold, and just 194 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:22.000 skin like you know, contracts or expands, it can change the way my 195 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:28.960 prosthetic leg fits. And it's why I am And again we're talking about some 196 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.799 of the struck media because I think it's okay to reference things because we're not 197 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:33.639 doing a show specificly on any of these things. We're bouncing around a lot. 198 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:39.799 But I'll say I don't think Hawkeye was my favorite MCU show. I 199 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.360 don't think it's many people's favorite MCU show, but I think it introduced some 200 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.759 great characters, and for me, Echo was so powerful because and I think 201 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.960 this is I mean, my understanding is that they didn't write her as a 202 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.480 disabled as well. Actually they've been back up there. They wrote her as 203 00:13:54.519 --> 00:13:58.159 a Native deaf character, and it turned out that the Native deaf actress they 204 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.720 found also was an amputee, and so they were like, oh, great, 205 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:05.159 we'll do both. But all the stuff about her being an amputee was 206 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:09.679 kind of added by the actress herself, because there are moments where she like 207 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.159 struggles for a second to get her prosthetic leg on or as a child, 208 00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.159 she kind of hides the prosthetic. She doesn't want people to see it. 209 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.879 And in combat she even uses it once to kind of block because it's like 210 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:24.440 a metal rod. Yeah, and it just to me that was really beautiful 211 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:28.320 that in this world of superpowers, and and you know, we don't know 212 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.200 much about her yet, but still she has she has the hearing loss definitely, 213 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.279 and she also has the disability with her with her legs. Yeah. 214 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.480 I think for me, one of the big things about sci fi and like, 215 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.799 you know, oh, we're depicting disabilities as like quote unquote resolvable through 216 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:46.960 technology, like resolving things for your limb replacement or like, is the question 217 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:50.679 of is it is the disabled person there for able bodied people or is the 218 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.200 disabled person there for disabled people? Because like, disabled people want to see 219 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:58.480 other people like them, who are struggling, who have like issues in our 220 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:03.480 complex and it's not just that they can get it fixed, because not only 221 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.799 is that like reductionary of what disability is, but it's not. Then they're 222 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.240 no longer relatable in the same way, whereas able bodied people fear being disabled, 223 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:16.559 and so that they want to see a world where if some tragedy happens 224 00:15:16.600 --> 00:15:20.840 to them, they can be quote unquote fixed because they fear disability and they 225 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.639 want they take comfort and seeing these characters become disabled. But it doesn't really 226 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:28.840 matter whereas disabled. People want to see people become disabled and take out on 227 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:33.200 as an identity, right, And I think that's why, particularly with things 228 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:39.360 like you know, Daredevil, perhaps, although I think this is so much 229 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.679 who about Daredevil, although I'm not visually impaired, so I don't eve the 230 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:45.840 best person to comment on that, but I've certainly seen others who have. 231 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.720 But for me, like the sort of most recent worst defender and this is 232 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.840 Avatar, where it's this idea of the soldier who's lost the use of his 233 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:56.799 legs through combat. I think it's a comment I'm even something else, but 234 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.720 that the Avatar program basically allows him to walk again, and it's this real 235 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:03.039 like it's an you know, they use all the kind of horrible language of 236 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:07.679 it's a new lease on life and things like that, and that really like 237 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.840 I feel like so much what I love what you say about the fear of 238 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.039 disability, because I think that's what so much of it comes down to, 239 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:18.679 is this idea of I am so afraid of that, and so I want 240 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.440 to see stories about people who can fix that, or I want to the 241 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:26.320 same reason why people go crazy every time there's a medical story about Oh look 242 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:30.080 there's this you know, new breakthrough that for this million dollar technology that I'm 243 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.279 never gonna be a little forward. This person can do something cool with artificial 244 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.919 limb. Yeah. I think Avatar is one that I've definitely spent quite a 245 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:41.279 lot of time thinking about, because I think I've seen Avatar before. Becoming 246 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:51.279 like a wheelchair user and then rewatching it was like really interested in the moment 247 00:16:51.320 --> 00:16:56.000 where he gets his new body and he's like he's running and he's overjoyed, 248 00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.559 And there was definitely a moment where like that did resonate with me as a 249 00:17:00.559 --> 00:17:04.279 disabled person who had lost the ability to run and used to be an athlete. 250 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:10.720 And at the same time, it wouldn't have been hard for them to 251 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:18.720 work in some amount of the struggle of that disability transferring into his new context, 252 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:23.240 and I was left to wonder, like, oh, this person's ability 253 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.920 to adapt to this new culture in my brain, like this person is able 254 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:32.720 to take up this entire new world in a radically different way than all of 255 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:37.519 these other people, and to me that was unseparatable from his disability and like 256 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.880 what it means to become disabled and then have to approach the world in a 257 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:44.640 whole new way and have to rely on other people and trust other people, 258 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:51.839 and like that was a story that on surface level, I agree, because 259 00:17:51.880 --> 00:17:55.559 I think the ables are taking the completely wrong message from it. And also 260 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:57.960 as a disabled person, I feel like I now have a really complex relationship 261 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:03.359 with and my sister, who's also disabled, has a really complex relationship with 262 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.160 because she's very young and she's always liked magical and fantasy worlds because they've always 263 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.319 been like a form of escape for her, and like not even wants that 264 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:17.880 specifically show disability, but she is obsessed with Avatar and like the world of 265 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:21.960 Avatar as magical, and I don't know if she's thinking about the disability aspects, 266 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:26.839 but like, again, part of me is wondering, like is part 267 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:32.920 of what resonates here that this person who is disabled is like exploring a whole 268 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:38.240 new world in a particular way, And why is that not like addressed more 269 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:42.039 clearly, why is it that only disabled people are thinking about that and able 270 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:45.799 bodied people are not. It's a great question. I think it's a couple 271 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:51.440 of reasons that come to mind for me. I mean, like I do 272 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:53.400 think, and the film kind of briefly touches on this, but not to 273 00:18:53.400 --> 00:19:00.200 the extent that we would want. There is an extent to which disability only 274 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.200 the disability like a place of not being privileged, but there are ways in 275 00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:07.559 which it can take away from other privilege, probably a little bit from whiteness, 276 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:12.279 but not really, but certainly like and granted I'm not someone who identifies 277 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:17.400 as male, I'm non binary, but it's slightly mask presenting, and I 278 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:19.559 I did identify as a man for most of the time I've been disabled. 279 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:25.359 I came out quite recently to myself, and I definitely found that the male 280 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:29.480 privilege that I was aware of decreased significantly if I was in the wheelchair. 281 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:33.720 And that's a whole other topic we could unpack with superheroes and like you know, 282 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:38.599 all of the body imagery and stuff like that. But I think there's 283 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:44.119 a way to which I think there is an extent to which I think any 284 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:48.200 person who is experiences a lack of privilege in one part of their life, 285 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.039 that that can lead to some empathy and some understanding for others, and I 286 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:55.799 think that there's some real value there, and that's where a lot of intersectionality 287 00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:00.359 happens, but especially where it's recognizing like, oh, I still have privilege 288 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.839 in this area, but I don't in this other. So maybe like the 289 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.400 person who doesn't have privilege either one should be the one speaking for me even 290 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:08.319 in these kind of things, you know, And again that's a much larger 291 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.359 topic. I'm speaking in generalities, but my point with this is here, 292 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.480 I think you're kind of right that there there's a little bit of an idea 293 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.680 to which Jake, having lost some of his privilege, can maybe understand a 294 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:23.480 little bit more the Native peoples he's dealing with. But in order to but 295 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:27.680 in order for the film to acknowledge that, the film would have to acknowledge 296 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:33.319 that it's one a white savior narrative, which is incredibly racist, I think, 297 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.880 probably problematic towards Native people. Yeah, I fully agree, And I 298 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:41.559 think to me, like I wasn't even necessarily thinking about the loss of privileges 299 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:44.960 correlating to the increase of like empathy or something like that. To me, 300 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.279 it was like a on a very physical level, like learning what it is 301 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.000 to navigate the world in a wheelchair, what it means to go through doors, 302 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.160 what it means to interact with people, what it means to have to 303 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:00.119 absolutely place your trust in life in somebody else's hands, right, like just 304 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:04.079 knocks you down some pegs. And being able to be confident in a world 305 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.160 that's knocking you down those pigs was like where I saw reflected. But the 306 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:12.920 privilege element, I think, you know, almost swings in the other direction 307 00:21:14.400 --> 00:21:18.960 in that movie to me, which is that he then regains this privilege as 308 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:22.440 as soon as he enters an able body, and like does exploit it in 309 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:29.240 some questionable ways. And like I just I wish, I wish if movies 310 00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:32.519 were paying more attention disability, I think they would be so much more interesting 311 00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:37.039 because it would be such a unique like locus point for these other conversations because 312 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:45.000 frankly, like issues of gender and race and like queerness all end up relating 313 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:48.799 to the physical body as well, because men say that women aren't as able 314 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:53.559 because their body functions X, or people of color aren't is able because like 315 00:21:53.599 --> 00:22:00.480 their immediately identified features are X and their bodies function eggs, and like that 316 00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.359 whole conversation just gets skipped over because what disability is used for instead of all 317 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:10.440 those things, is oh, this is why this person's here, This is 318 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:15.799 why they're useless before this moment, which is so yeah, just shallow. 319 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:22.119 It's that or often, especially in stories involving physical violence, disability is the 320 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:26.880 way to show that there are consequences to violence without removing the character entirely. 321 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.839 So, for example, in Civil War, Roady becomes disabled, you know, 322 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:36.319 or in other things like the some of the clones become like, you 323 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.839 know, amputee is they're ones who are less likely to appear on screen now, 324 00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:44.160 but like it's very rarely about that person's story. It's generally about the 325 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.359 story of the others who are like, oh god, we feel so sorry 326 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:51.000 for them, and that's reminding us that all war is terrible and that kind 327 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.599 of thing. And so it's the disabled person is an object lesson instead of 328 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:59.759 an actual, fully formed character. Yeah, I think that that's absolutely true. 329 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:02.920 And I think, you know, disability as a as a cliche is 330 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.880 like one of my biggest pet pees is like it's just it's just represented so 331 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.799 one dimentially it's either oh, like this is a consequence, this is a 332 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.119 punishment, this is you know, the product of evil manifesting itself in some 333 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:17.880 sort of way, or you know, this is a plot tool, This 334 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:19.799 is a plot device. This is an angle we're going to put so that 335 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.160 we can get this character to go. And it's not it's not like an 336 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:27.079 actual part of the characters. It's like an add on, right. Yeah, 337 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:30.519 well, especially because like you know, I know you were talking about 338 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:34.359 being an athlete. Both you and I lived a part of our lives as 339 00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:40.119 able bodied and then something changed, either gradually or or much more quickly in 340 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:44.240 my case. But that we're not the overwhelming majority, but I means I 341 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.319 don't know. My sense is that actually we are the minority. But either 342 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.559 way, it's pretty close. Of people who are just born with disabilities, 343 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:53.960 you know, who are born with only one leg, are born with you 344 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.200 know, spine problems or whatever. It is. Another thing that I think 345 00:23:59.279 --> 00:24:00.759 is a part of this is that and this is true about kind of all 346 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.720 media, but I think especially in these stories where we could have so much 347 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:11.400 more, is that you know, I had Caged Bishop Cosplay on a couple 348 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.279 of episodes ago who talked about being a black nerd and what that meant to 349 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:15.839 him, and he talked about how important it was to him, you know, 350 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:22.200 he wanted to see stories about superheroes who were dealing with their blackness while 351 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:23.519 being you know, and dealing with the racism that comes with it, not 352 00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:27.160 like dealing with their blackness, but just you know, experiencing their their blackness 353 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.880 and their black community in a superhero narrative. But also they wanted to see 354 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.799 people who just like they were superheroes and they were black and like it didn't 355 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.480 matter, you know, and like to me that, yeah, I do 356 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.400 want to see uh. Like, in some ways, Echo is kind of 357 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.240 both because so much of her stories about her hearing loss, but her amputation, 358 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:48.599 her prosthetic leg or like barely a part of it. And you know, 359 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.680 I there are definitely some good examples, but I think it's it's it's 360 00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:55.759 hard to see both. Yeah. I think the you know, the devils 361 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:00.160 and the details, which is like I've heard a lot of people of are 362 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.599 complaining about the trope of you know, people are remaking live action movies and 363 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:08.279 just putting a black character in a previously white characters place and saying that that's 364 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:12.640 representation and being like, well, you like, you change the skin color, 365 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:17.920 but you didn't change the story. And it doesn't reflect like like the 366 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:23.640 experience of black people for brown people. And more than that, like the 367 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:29.000 details aren't right because the story was written for a white person. And I 368 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:32.119 think the same is true of disability, which is like I do want to 369 00:25:32.119 --> 00:25:33.920 see people who are just disabled and like it's just a part of their story, 370 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.960 and they don't. We don't need to see them part. Like a 371 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.319 story doesn't need to revolve around them struggling with it or confronting it. But 372 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:45.119 the details have to be right for that to work. You can't just slap 373 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:49.240 a disability on someone and call it representation. Yeah. No, I think 374 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:52.680 it's really true. I think it's really good. I see yet and I 375 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.079 want to start getting into more specific examples. But I wanted to tell a 376 00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:56.519 quick story because it literally happened to me last night, and this is part 377 00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.440 of what got me thinking about being like, Okay, we need to make 378 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:06.480 this episode happened asaph yesterday I was flying home from Las Vegas and we've been 379 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:11.319 from a magic event, and as I normally do, I rolled my wheelchair 380 00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:14.720 all the way down to the end of the gate, you know, just 381 00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.400 in that kind of a little round area right before you board the plane, 382 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.640 and I folded my wheelchair up. I made sure that the pink tag is 383 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.160 on it, that that tags it to let the baggage handlers know, like 384 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:26.720 it goes back to me. And got on the plane and went to my 385 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:33.079 seat as I always have, and then got off the plane, and you 386 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:34.640 know, I was waiting for a while and said, where's my wheelchair? 387 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.559 Finally when someone from the baggage and they're like, oh, we didn't see 388 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.720 a wheelchair, and I just said that walked off, and then I said 389 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.279 to a flight attendant, like where I think they left my wheelchair behind? 390 00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.680 And they went, oh, okay, why don't we get you. We'll 391 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:49.920 get you another wheelchair so we can just get you up to the gate. 392 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:56.160 We can figure out what happened. And throughout the whole process, these folks 393 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.559 were all treating it though as though I had lost a bag, you know, 394 00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:02.359 as though this was an inconvenience, but it wasn't really a big deal, 395 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.759 and they were even willing to, you know, eventually after some coasting 396 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:10.160 like because off I do ever press the back leg they can sometimes use, 397 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:12.119 but I'm never gonna be able to walk like all the way from the gate 398 00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.960 to you know, the end of an airport, but especially that day, 399 00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.720 I you know, I'd had some issues going on and I couldn't get my 400 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:22.680 leg to fit that night, so I couldn't use the leg, and I 401 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.960 had a kind of slave with them, like look, this isn't you know, 402 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:30.440 just a oh, it's a little bit inconvenient, like I don't have 403 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.599 a way to get anywhere, and you know, they were like, oh, 404 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:37.079 no, don't worry. We have a wheelchair you can use. And 405 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:40.400 again there it was like, well, a, I have a motorized wheelchair 406 00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:44.640 like sort of a I have a specially made like hybrid of electric manual. 407 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.079 But also I'm a large person. I've gained some weight. But even when 408 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:52.039 I was in like great shape, I was a bear. I the normal 409 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.440 weird chair is too narrow for me. I have especially made a wheelchair. 410 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.880 And I finally got some people to understand and and get them to realize that 411 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.000 like getting it back to me a week later instead of you know, was 412 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:07.720 not acceptable. And they did get it back to me this morning. But 413 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:10.839 I realized that like no one there was a malfeasance. No one was mad 414 00:28:10.839 --> 00:28:15.240 at me, no one thought I'm cursed by God. They just didn't understand 415 00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.440 why this was such a big deal. And I think that, you know, 416 00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:22.640 I think there's lots of reasons for it. And I'm not, you 417 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.240 know, tipp or Gore trying to like blame everything on the media by a 418 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:29.599 means, but I do think the fact that we get these stories again and 419 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:33.400 again that don't really help people understand. Like I know lots of people who 420 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.559 have named their wheelchairs or decorated their wheelchairs and like kind of the way people 421 00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:38.279 do with their cars, and they have a real sort of like a personality 422 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:41.559 to their because it's it's a fundamental part of who you are. Yeah, 423 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:48.839 I mean, people definitely treat it like it's a more of a tool than 424 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.920 a full integration into a disabled person's body and life, Like wheel chairs are 425 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:57.039 an extension of disabled people's bodies and should be treated as such and just are 426 00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.799 nod. Yeah, And I think that's true for wheelchairs, but also true 427 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:04.200 for walkers. It's true for hearing aids, it's true for true for glasses. 428 00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:07.319 You know it can be. So So with that, let's talk about 429 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:11.880 more specific examples. What are some places where you think and I s let's 430 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.480 do some of the positive first, because you know, we've talked him about 431 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:17.799 a lot of the negatives. Let's let's talk about some of the positives. 432 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.920 What are stories where you see disability really being done? Well, yeah, 433 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.640 it's not quite sci fi, but it is definitely fantasy. I think one 434 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.000 of my all time favorites is Tough from Avatar The Last Airbender. It's not 435 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:36.319 perfectly done, but it's very well done. I think they're for those who 436 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:37.920 don't know that characters. Can you talk about a little about what the disability 437 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.720 is, how it's expressed. Tough is blind. She is also a bender, 438 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:47.759 so she has magical abilities that allow her to someone on her own accommodate 439 00:29:47.799 --> 00:29:49.519 for her blindness. But it's not a perfect system. So when she's on 440 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:55.680 structures that are unstable, like things like sand, she can't feel the vibrations 441 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.000 in the way that she might be able to elsewhere, and so she does 442 00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:02.519 have to rely more on others or other tools. And throughout the show we 443 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:08.559 see her both like using her like working with her disability and alongside her disability, 444 00:30:08.839 --> 00:30:11.640 and we see it impact her life in the way you would expect disability 445 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.519 impact her life, and it is very much like a part of her character 446 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.200 that she owns and is aware of and is comfortable in, and that's just 447 00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:23.920 really refreshing to me. Yeah, I really love those stories and to me, 448 00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:26.960 like one of my favorite scenes with her that really kind of again reminded 449 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:32.240 us like, no, she is still disabled. There there's a series of 450 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:36.319 episodes where they're fighting on sand and she talked because it's part of it. 451 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.839 She has this sort of mystical connection to the ground, and so that's how 452 00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:44.559 she sees things is by hearing the vibrations of feeling the vibrations to her feet 453 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:48.000 of how people walk, and so for example, when she's up on their 454 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:51.839 sky buffalo flying it's terrifying to her, or when she's on sand where she 455 00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:55.519 can't feel those vibrations she's blind, you know, And I just thought it 456 00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:56.960 was such a brilliant way of being Like, like you said, yeah, 457 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:02.240 the power compensate. It's too large extent, but it's not perfect. Yeah, 458 00:31:02.319 --> 00:31:06.880 yeah, I think it's definitely like she has come up with a system 459 00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:08.920 to navigate the world and it works for her, and she is fortunate enough 460 00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.759 to be able to have skills that allow her to have that system. But 461 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.160 at the end of the day, she's still disabled. Person. There's there's 462 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.039 one I want to hear more of your examples, but there's one of their 463 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.559 beautiful moment I want to mention, which is where they find a sign like 464 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.559 I think the lists like some important information on one of their quests, and 465 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.079 she asks what it's about, and one of them holds it in front of 466 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.079 her and she has to be like, guys, I'm blind. Yeah, 467 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:34.920 because the whole thing is that, like they often can forget, but it's 468 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.039 like, no, it still means he can't do those things. Yeah. 469 00:31:37.119 --> 00:31:41.359 Yeah, I'm definitely like struggling to think of other like sci fi examples right 470 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:48.319 now for some reason. So I'll say that. In the Stormline Archives by 471 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:52.000 Brandon Sanderson, which are books that I know many many people love, I 472 00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:56.960 really wrestled with them because the magic system is so dense. Every third word 473 00:31:57.039 --> 00:32:00.480 is a word he invented, and I just it's one of those like you 474 00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:04.960 know your literal language by total immersion, and this one there's no point of 475 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:07.160 view character who's new to the world like you're supposed to as the reader learned 476 00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.400 by total immersion. Many people love that. I have the most respect for 477 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.000 it. I cannot do it, so I couldn't. I didn't finish any 478 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:16.720 of the other books, but I did. There's a short story book that 479 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:21.359 I wish I could remember the name of, but it's about a woman who 480 00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:25.880 is disabled and she gets some of the kind of like magic power. A 481 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.119 lot of the magic power that they have is through these kind of like artifacts 482 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:34.119 that have magic power in them, and she gets kind of this like magical 483 00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.799 wheelchair that she can use, which is really great, but it still has 484 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:42.599 problems and sometimes it doesn't fit, and sometimes like Sam gets in the gears 485 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:46.720 and stuff like that, And it was just another It was this beautiful example 486 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:52.720 to me of like this person gets that technology doesn't instantly make it fit, 487 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:57.160 you know. Yeah, it's just such a big difference. Yeah. I've 488 00:32:57.200 --> 00:32:59.880 never read the storm Light Archives, but I have heard good things about it. 489 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.759 Yeah, I think one of the other characters that I was just I 490 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:07.799 was trying to like jove my brain about characters in sci fi. I do 491 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.240 really enjoy X Men. I think that I a lot of people have read 492 00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:14.839 X Men as like an analogy for queerness, and I think I always read 493 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:17.240 it as an analogy for disability. Disability was present in my life, like 494 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:22.599 in family members and I was like chronically ill from birth, and I did 495 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:24.960 always read X men as analogy for disability, but more specifically, there are 496 00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:30.759 like X men who are disabled like Professor X, and I think that's a 497 00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:36.160 space where representation is done very diversely across a broad group of people, and 498 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:42.400 like disability is done very diversely across a broad group of people, for sure, 499 00:33:42.519 --> 00:33:46.480 And the story isn't told perfectly, but one thing I do really appreciate 500 00:33:46.599 --> 00:33:52.720 in the X Men. I think it's in Days of Future Past where this 501 00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.279 is brought up. But basically there's a point in time where he's able to 502 00:33:57.319 --> 00:34:01.000 take drugs that allow him to walk again, but they also suppress his mutant 503 00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:07.119 abilities, and that at some point in time he chooses willingly to go back 504 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:09.679 to being unable to use his legs in order to also have the mental power. 505 00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:14.519 And it's not really touched on, but it's a powerful lesson of like 506 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.519 being in a wheelchair is not the end of the world, yea, and 507 00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:20.239 sometimes like it could be, because I think that is off again. It's 508 00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:22.000 the like, well, anything is better than being in a wheelchair, like 509 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.000 and if her press jacts is like, no, that's not true. Yeah, 510 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.280 I think the other story that definitely like stuck with me quite a bit 511 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.639 was, you know, not all the mutants have abilities that are considered favorable. 512 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:36.679 And I do not remember her name now for some ridiculous reason, but 513 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:42.360 like the girl who touches yeah road and the storyline where it's like, oh, 514 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.639 we have the ability to cure mutants, and you know, she's interested 515 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:47.960 in that and gets in line, and there are other mutants who are like, 516 00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:52.719 what are you doing? Why would you do? That seems resonant of 517 00:34:52.800 --> 00:34:55.480 discussions that happen in disabled communities all the time, because like, there are 518 00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:00.599 deaf people who think co clears are like, you know, destroying the community, 519 00:35:00.760 --> 00:35:04.559 and then there are deaf people who are like cochlears are allowing people to 520 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.159 hear. Again, this is amazing, and it's so much more complicated than 521 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.800 than a fixed all solution that is a lot of time presented in media. 522 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:17.079 I think that's so true. And I think with definis especially, I know 523 00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.800 many, not all, but many deaf people don't even consider that to be 524 00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:22.760 a disability. They consider it to be a difference, and so it's always 525 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:24.599 a little tricky talking about it. But I think you're right it's a very 526 00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:29.400 good in many ways. That plant line, which I know is told both 527 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.159 in comics and in the animated show and in the movies, is a great 528 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:35.880 analogy for that in the deaf community, but also in a lot of other 529 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:42.320 communities, you know, I think there's there's definitely like I am happy being 530 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.400 on asthetic leg quite a lot. Excuse me, I am happy being in 531 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:47.280 my prosthetic leg quite a lot. I know imputs who just don't ever want 532 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:51.440 it. I know other people who have, you know, like nerve damage 533 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:53.760 their legs or something like that, and they could learn to walk with crutches 534 00:35:53.840 --> 00:35:57.840 or something like that, but they've chosen very consciously not to. And I 535 00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.440 think that that's these are all viable options. Yeah, I think you know, 536 00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:06.320 my the genetication I have as eilor stands, and it's like incredibly complex 537 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:10.159 and incredibly painful, and for me, it manifests mostly as just extreme amounts 538 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:15.000 of pain and an inability to walk or stand. And people often ask me, 539 00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:19.159 like, would if you could press a button, like would to make 540 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:22.000 it go away? Would you? And I'm honestly surprised that I think ninety 541 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:25.320 nine percent of the time my answer is actually know that. I do think 542 00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:30.440 being a disabled person is, like it a way of life that has just 543 00:36:30.119 --> 00:36:37.639 changed me so drastically in positive and neutral ways that I now value that like 544 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:43.239 I wouldn't I wouldn't undo it, and I wouldn't go back and like say 545 00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:45.519 it had never happened. But then there are definitely the days where I'm like, 546 00:36:45.559 --> 00:36:47.639 I'm just in so much pain that I like, I would do anything 547 00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.960 to make this stop. And it's that that's what I like about, you 548 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.280 know, things going on in particularly the X Men universes that it does go 549 00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:00.920 back and forth and it does fluctuate, and the superhero bilities are seen at 550 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:06.559 the same time, both like new types of disabilities and new types of like 551 00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:12.280 superhero powers, which is I think something that's maybe going to become a discussion 552 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.960 in The Boys at some point or in that universe at some point. So 553 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.800 I'm interested to see where that goes me too, Me too for sure. 554 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.480 And it's funny you were talking about those reasons. Perhaps this is a little 555 00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:25.440 more self focused, but I was thinking, well, if I get my 556 00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:29.239 legs back, I don't get to cut the line all the time. I 557 00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:34.880 want to like fly or things like that. Yeah, my now spouse said 558 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.119 that she was like, you know, she made a joke of like we 559 00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:39.199 should get married some day. The first time we flew to Japan and just 560 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:43.639 there's just like two hour customs line and we just like cut right through it. 561 00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:45.760 Ye. But yeah, but also all that, you know, as 562 00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:50.079 I said before, like I don't think I would have my understanding of toxic 563 00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:54.559 masculinity, and like I either, though I'm not mail, I was very 564 00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:59.159 and this is such a sticky topic, would be very clear. I'm only 565 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:04.000 speaking for myself. There are many trans people who were never enculturated into the 566 00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:07.960 gender that they were assigned at birth as I was. I absolutely was raised 567 00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:13.719 and had a lot of mail, you know, toxic toxic masculinity and mail 568 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.079 the attendant male privilege ingrained in me. And I've had a long journey of 569 00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:21.239 unpacking it and breaking it down, and a journey that isn't over and we're 570 00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:22.719 all you continue most of my life. But my disability has been a really 571 00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:25.960 big part of that. Yeah, way, it is super important. I 572 00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:30.000 mean I was, I was assigned female at birth, identify mostly as female 573 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:36.559 now, and I had a lot of toxic masculinity that needed unpacking by nature 574 00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:38.880 of just like the area I grew up in, And I do think disability 575 00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:45.039 contributed to that unpacking and contributed to like understanding even what people of color are 576 00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:47.360 talking about or immigrants are talking about when like they talk about being hyper visible. 577 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:50.159 It's like, Oh, I was in a wheelchair and suddenly embody was 578 00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.880 staring at me, and like, oh, this is what people need, 579 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:57.280 and like you shouldn't. We shouldn't have to have disabled experiences to be able 580 00:38:57.320 --> 00:39:00.239 to understand those things, and like it's an unfortunate thing that like I had 581 00:39:00.320 --> 00:39:06.000 to become disabled to understand that, and there's no guarantee I wouldn't have kind 582 00:39:06.039 --> 00:39:08.239 of understood at some point anyway, but I was young, and I do 583 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:15.079 think that like the way that disability hit me did just create like it tore 584 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:20.639 down my world, which meant that I had to refigure out everything, which 585 00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:22.440 means I had to go back to point zero and I had to say, 586 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:29.039 Okay, what does the world actually look like? And that's like an invaluable 587 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.800 experience. Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think there's so 588 00:39:32.880 --> 00:39:36.800 much there that you talk about because it's not easy. It's not one side 589 00:39:36.840 --> 00:39:38.199 of the other, Like I think one thing that can be very dangerous, 590 00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:42.599 to be honest, and I have seen this with disability, but I've also 591 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:45.280 seen it, like I've seen this in a number of situations where people who 592 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:49.280 are used to having a great deal of privilege, so they have one part 593 00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:52.880 in their life that they don't have privilege, and it's that there can be 594 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.320 this idea of also therefore to races all your other privilege, you know, 595 00:39:54.400 --> 00:39:59.559 and like, yes, I'm disabled, and like you know that you put 596 00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:06.039 a person and who like a black trans woman in ninety percent of the situations, 597 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:10.000 is going to be a lot he's going to there's gonna be a lot 598 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.400 more struggles that person deals within the world than I will. But that person 599 00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:16.880 can walk up a five stairs but I can't. And you know, and 600 00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:22.639 but that the same thing is to be like for them. And this is 601 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:24.800 what I think I see all the time is when it then becomes, oh, 602 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:29.880 well, because I'm disabled, I understand all your struggles entirely, and 603 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.199 we're just the same. And I think that's one where you know, there 604 00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:36.400 are a lot of ways that one kind of struggle can help inform you about 605 00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:39.440 other kind of struggles. And sometimes it's just purely you know, a understanding 606 00:40:39.440 --> 00:40:44.199 across things. In some it's because it's similar. I've one of the most 607 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:49.360 important events that I've ever attended was a conference though specifically on trans and disability 608 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:51.920 and looking in all the ways that they're linked, and you know, from 609 00:40:51.960 --> 00:40:54.800 everything from like the question of passing to the question of you know, the 610 00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:00.159 medicalization of both situations and all the questions people can ask you. And it 611 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:02.719 was great, but it wasn't the same, and I think that that needs 612 00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:07.599 a mistake for people to make. Yeah, I think for me, what 613 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:10.840 like the spot I was able to get to was it became so clear that 614 00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:16.000 nobody who wasn't disabled understood disability, and then I became so much easier to 615 00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:20.679 understand, Okay, I'm not trands, I'm not black, I'm not an 616 00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:24.239 immigrant, I'm never going to understand these things, and like, I have 617 00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:30.320 to just stop at a certain point trying to intellectualize and understand and imagine myself 618 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:36.039 in scenarios and just listen to people who are saying things because like, no 619 00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.239 one's ever gonna like I know that these able bodied people are never going to 620 00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:44.159 get disability, and so that needs to be turned around as well. But 621 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:45.239 I think you're right, because you know, one of the things I think 622 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:51.360 that you hear so often in any representation discussion is that a lot of times 623 00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.400 there's all you know, all the microaggressions, all the little things that happen. 624 00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:57.719 That's why even aggressions, but just little things that your life is different, 625 00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:02.960 that are I can genuinely generally understand some ideas of racism, but there's 626 00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:07.159 levels of which that I'm never going to understand. And in the same way 627 00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:12.320 with disability, and I think that's part of why having these stories told, 628 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:16.239 as you said, they get it wrong. Like with Echo's story, there 629 00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:19.559 were so many of these just little moments that I saw and I know we're 630 00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:21.920 getting her own show, it might be her own movie, and like who 631 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:23.880 knows what's happening now in the strike, and I don't want anything done until 632 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:30.760 the strike's over. Hopefully it's happening soon, but exactly. But like for 633 00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:32.760 me, I know as a disabled person, one of the things that I 634 00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:36.960 have to do that most people, like most you would think like, oh, 635 00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:38.880 they lost people wheelchair, that's bad. There's a flight of stairs you 636 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:43.360 didn't know the stairs, that's bad. I don't think most people, my 637 00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:47.280 friends understand that, Like I will often ask them for a lot of details 638 00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:51.440 about plans that other people are arranging, or I'll want to arrange the plans. 639 00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:57.559 And part of it's because I have to very carefully plan out how am 640 00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:01.199 I going to approach the world, you know. You know, I might 641 00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:04.719 think, oh, friends of mine wanted to go out and we're just going 642 00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:07.360 to go to this one restaurant and then seeing some karaoke there and then come 643 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:12.519 back, and I'll think cool, I could just take my prosthetic leg, 644 00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:14.800 But then I find out, oh, and yeah, they want to just 645 00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:16.360 you know, then take a ten block walk to this great dessert place. 646 00:43:16.679 --> 00:43:22.440 I can't do that right Or the flip side, I bring my wheelchair, 647 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:24.360 you know. I mean often if I bring me a wheelchair, I'm going 648 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:27.880 to wear shorts so that I can take my leg on or off. But 649 00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:30.639 if we're going out somewhere fancy, then maybe I should bring pants, or 650 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:31.920 maybe I should bring a change of clothes or all this kind of stuff, 651 00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:36.760 And I want to be careful. This podcast hasn't just becoming you're in my 652 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:38.599 issues that they're worth talking about, but it's just more to say, like 653 00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:43.360 this is why that kind of representation matters so much, you know that I 654 00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:45.760 want to see something good. I was just gonna say, I think, 655 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:50.360 like, I think the reason that like we keep turning back to personal experiences 656 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.760 it is just because their experiences that are not depicted in media. It would 657 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:59.480 be so easy to just add like this small detail of like watching a character 658 00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.079 change the pants because they went out to a nicer place, or you know, 659 00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:06.599 watching someone who's in a wheelchair go, oh, actually, like we 660 00:44:06.639 --> 00:44:09.239 need to go this way because like I can't go that way. Like those 661 00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:15.000 are such tiny moments you can write into a story without adding time, without 662 00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.880 adding additional sets, without really changing anything, and just paying attention to those 663 00:44:19.880 --> 00:44:22.480 details, which I think, you know it goes to you need to disabled 664 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:27.840 people in the story writing process and directing process on set. But like, 665 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:32.239 just having those details and showing those experiences is so important to teaching other people 666 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:36.840 who have no idea that these are the considerations we go through every day when 667 00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.760 we go out into the world. And the reason they have no idea is 668 00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:44.039 because these experiences are only something that I talked about. When too disabled people 669 00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:46.599 get into the same room, we talk about them. Well, I think 670 00:44:46.599 --> 00:44:49.880 that's so true. And the more I think about it, also wonder, 671 00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:55.920 you know, if I, as a white person watch a story of racism, 672 00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:00.079 I want to empathize, I want to sympathize, but there's some part 673 00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:04.280 of me that's always going to know that not only am I not black, 674 00:45:04.519 --> 00:45:07.639 I'm never going to be black, I'm never going to be indigenous. And 675 00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:12.519 I think for a lot of people that it makes it almost safe to watch 676 00:45:12.559 --> 00:45:16.280 that because it's never going to be you. The medical reality is, I 677 00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.920 don't know, there's some statistics are so that's at one hundred percent. I 678 00:45:19.960 --> 00:45:24.760 don't think that's true. But a huge amount of people will become disabled at 679 00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.840 some point in their life, either temporary, like you know, and it 680 00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:30.599 might just be like you badly break your ankle and so you're in a wheelchair 681 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:34.800 for a year or six months or even just a month, or it could 682 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:37.639 be you know, you know, just that one doctor's visit where all of 683 00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:39.079 a sudden they tell you, yeah, your eyes are really starting to fail, 684 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:43.159 or something in your brain is changing, or you know, just you 685 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:45.880 fall down a flight of stairs and your knees never quite the same again. 686 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:47.880 And so I do wonder if maybe that's also a part of it is that 687 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:52.039 because like what you said about the fear, I wonder if this is part 688 00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:55.320 of that fear, is that it's because most people at some level, no, 689 00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:59.639 they always could anyone could become disabled at any time in a way it's 690 00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:01.800 not true for a lot of the other kind of areas of privilege. Yeah, 691 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:06.400 I think that's definitely one of the hesitations of putting disabled people on screen 692 00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:09.119 and seeing them have any sort of complication. I also do just think it 693 00:46:09.159 --> 00:46:15.320 comes down to, like the people treat disabled people like their aliens and like 694 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:20.119 and the presence have disabled people in sci fi like shows that like they literally 695 00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:25.159 just have no idea where to even start, because your average person has no 696 00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:30.599 idea that like, I pay attention to which doors are slightly wider in building 697 00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.880 so that I have a lower probability of bumping into a door when I go 698 00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:38.440 in out of it just because it's awkward, and like, yeah, you 699 00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:45.039 just you're literally seeing the world in a different way that people are just absolutely 700 00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.920 not thinking about because they're not No one's thinking about the nitty gritty detail of 701 00:46:49.000 --> 00:46:51.880 like, oh, what does it mean to have this character without an arm 702 00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.079 put on a shirt and would they put it on differently, you know, 703 00:46:55.199 --> 00:47:00.880 they'd say there's a trope I think in a lot of science fiction or fantasy, 704 00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:07.000 and like the Jedi Temple is definitely like this where you see characters sort 705 00:47:07.039 --> 00:47:09.519 of like walking up this long fight of stairs, and it's a way to 706 00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:13.639 show like not even not a flight of stairs, but like outdoor stairs, 707 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:16.679 and it's a way to show like the majesty of this building. I've always 708 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:22.000 wondered, where's the wheelchair entrance to the Jedi Temple, you know, like 709 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:23.760 I hope there is one, but we're something never going to see it, 710 00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:28.920 always see is you know. I was actually thinking about that exact thing. 711 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:30.800 Oh day, because oh my goodness, I cannot remember his name. There's 712 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:35.280 another disabled TikTok creator, and I will try and get their name to you 713 00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:37.599 after this because I'll want to look it up and find it. And they 714 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.519 make videos they're like would it be accessible or not? Or like would they 715 00:47:40.559 --> 00:47:44.360 be an ally or not? And one of the things that came up was 716 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.440 like the Death Star is like almost absolutely accessible, and I was like, 717 00:47:47.480 --> 00:47:52.519 oh yeah, we never put stairs. Like with the exception of like gothic 718 00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:54.880 kind of aesthetics, a lot of times in sci Fi, the places without 719 00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:00.239 stairs are really clean and sterile and evil looking and like where the scientists are 720 00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:05.159 and the bad guys are because they lack detail and sophistication and so there's no 721 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.679 stairs, and it's like, oh, oh, that's so interesting. I 722 00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:13.320 don't It was just something that I was thinking about because in Stars specifically, 723 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.519 all the bad guy places are super like clean and like almost hospitally and really 724 00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:22.760 accessible looking, and all the good guy places, I mean partially by nature 725 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.960 of the fact that like any rebellion on the run, but they're all way 726 00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.920 less accessible looking because they're grittier and you know in these old ancient areas that 727 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:37.119 are like super leveled and sprawling. Yeah, no, yeah, it's very 728 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:43.119 true. Like and it's one thing I was thinking about recently because you know, 729 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:45.880 I was trying to think where I was. I was in this convention 730 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:49.320 center hotel over the week when I was in Vegas, and for some reason, 731 00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.920 I just kept noticing the you know, fire safety signs, and when 732 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:55.119 then they all said, is you know, in case of fire used stairs? 733 00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:59.360 Yeah, which is just and I get that, Like, I like, 734 00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:01.360 it's not that I like, of all the ways that I want buildings 735 00:49:01.400 --> 00:49:07.639 to be disability, you know, made more accessible, making the elevator's fireproof. 736 00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:10.000 It's pretty low down on my list, but it's just one more of 737 00:49:10.039 --> 00:49:14.519 those things. I'm glad we brought up that because I do want to talk 738 00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:16.559 about as kind of the last topic, because I kind of think he's gonna 739 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:20.679 tie everything together because I know you and I are both such huge Star Wars 740 00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:22.679 fans. We've joked a lot about this, and we talked a little bit 741 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.039 about with the ampts and things like that, But overall, how do you 742 00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:30.000 feel like Star Wars handles disability? I think that in a lot of ways. 743 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:34.280 Okay, I think the original trilogy is super, super problematic, mostly 744 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:38.199 because of the fact that Luke's losing his hand is then portrayed as his like 745 00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:44.239 similarity with Vader, and Vader is portrayed as monstrous because of the fact that 746 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:49.199 he is largely made of robotic components, and like that whole analogy going on 747 00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:52.280 there. Don't like it. I think in more recent years Star Wars has 748 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.719 gotten much better. I think the prequels did a much better job. I 749 00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:00.320 think we see Anakin, you know, losing his hand, and I dealing 750 00:50:00.360 --> 00:50:04.679 with that a little bit more I think we see you know, we see 751 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.719 it just health portrayed a little bit more in the prequels, and then I 752 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:12.440 think by the time we've gotten to Disney owning Star Wars, I know there 753 00:50:12.440 --> 00:50:17.800 are several novelizations that really intricately and well like in a well done way handle 754 00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:22.159 disability. I think there are a couple episodes of the Clone Wars where we 755 00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:25.880 see disabled people a little bit more favorite favorably. I think things like Rogue 756 00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:30.360 one and Sacarrera was a good like this person's crew disabled. I have no 757 00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:35.280 idea how, I don't know the specifics at all, but they're just here 758 00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.599 and they're just being disabled and it's not a part of the story at all. 759 00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:42.360 But that was just refreshing to see. I know Sacarrera is people have 760 00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:45.519 his portrayal is not necessarily entirely positive, but like for me, that was 761 00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:50.239 just I was just like, Oh, cool disabled person. And I think 762 00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:52.800 they're getting better at it, and I think that it's a it's a complex 763 00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:58.559 bag of beans because Star Wars is so all over the place when it comes 764 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:02.559 to representation of all forms and its developments since the seventies. Yeah, it's 765 00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:07.639 a story, it's been told over more than forty five years. And it's 766 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:10.199 so interesting though, because some of the examples you brought up, like Saw, 767 00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:15.639 I had a wildly different interpretation of because you know, he clearly well 768 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.480 he walks with a limp, and actually he has a prosthetic leg, which 769 00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:22.440 is you know, I think, uh, you know, awesome, that 770 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:27.880 that was cool to see. But the way his body's mechanicized, especially like 771 00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.920 the way he sort of uses a breathing mask to me, is very reminiscent 772 00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:39.880 of Darth Vader, and I thought that was supposed to to represent you know 773 00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:44.639 that, you know that because you know how Anakin fell is by you know, 774 00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:47.119 wanting to go to extreme methods to do what he thought was right and 775 00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:52.119 then of course also protecting padme, And that's kind of saw His problem here 776 00:51:52.119 --> 00:51:54.320 is that he's also willing to like torture people to find out if they are 777 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:58.360 spies or they're here to help him in that kind of thing. Yeah, 778 00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:02.280 But but I think it's here's the thing. It's because we have so few 779 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:06.119 characters, right that it's like, oh, yeah, well that's one of 780 00:52:06.159 --> 00:52:08.800 the three. Yeah. A lot of times for me, I'm just like, 781 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:12.440 oh, I'm so refreshed to see a disabled character, and I'm not 782 00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.719 even thinking about, like, oh, how are the able it's going to 783 00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.480 read this in terms of like, yeah, this is supposed to be a 784 00:52:17.480 --> 00:52:23.199 negative Oh okay, Yeah, no, I get that. And I definitely 785 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:28.280 agree with you on the original trilogy, although I would say, and granted, 786 00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:31.320 I perhaps I'm overly critical of the prequels, and that's that's a very 787 00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:37.039 fair comment to make. I think the most like ablest moment in All Star 788 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:42.840 Wars comes in the prequels, because to me, I think some of the 789 00:52:42.880 --> 00:52:47.920 best disability representation in the original trilogy is Yoda, because Yoda is kind of 790 00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:52.199 stumped older. He walks with a cane, which you know is a kind 791 00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:57.599 of disability, and he still has this incredible power to lift this X wing 792 00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:00.679 out from a swamp let alone, to like you know, read the future, 793 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:05.480 and to help train Luke and all these things. We again see him 794 00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:07.559 as this like, you know, disabled person using a cane. He can't 795 00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:13.039 really even stand upright all the time. And then it becomes time for the 796 00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:17.199 lightsaber battle. Yeah, and he just throws his cane away and becomes this 797 00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:22.079 acrobatic little ground ball bouncing around the lightsaber and everyone else thought this was so 798 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:27.880 cool and I was so angry. Yeah, I think I you know, 799 00:53:27.920 --> 00:53:30.519 I started to think about Yoda as you were talking, and I thought about 800 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:32.079 him in the contest of the original trilogy, and positive I didn't even think 801 00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:37.280 about the prequel implication. I think, Ah, I go so far back 802 00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:40.519 and forth because like my initial reaction to that, I think was like, 803 00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.800 oh, why is he doing? Like it just felt out of place. 804 00:53:44.639 --> 00:53:50.199 But I am also an ampulatory military user who and I'm not sure if I 805 00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.599 could do this now, but I think a year and a half ago, 806 00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:57.159 like in the in the recent past, while I was using a wheelchair full 807 00:53:57.199 --> 00:54:02.960 time, was training two three times a week over the summer in tae Kwonto 808 00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:07.800 and got my third degree black belt because I would just use my wheelchair all 809 00:54:07.880 --> 00:54:12.880 day long, and the very little energy that I had all went into this 810 00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:17.159 project, and it was very limited. I had maybe an hour or two 811 00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:21.519 where I could perform at that level and then it fell apart and I was 812 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:23.679 in excruciating pain the next day. But like, this was something that I 813 00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:29.239 wanted to work towards and to me in that initial fight with Doogu and later 814 00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:31.880 in the fight with Palpatine. You know, Yoda is pretty exhausted by the 815 00:54:31.960 --> 00:54:34.960 end, and I think they do it a little letter in the fight with 816 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:37.719 Doogu, and they do in the fight with Palpatine, and it definitely feels 817 00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:42.639 out of place in a lot of ways. But I'm not and I don't. 818 00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:45.840 And the other thing is, I also know there's no way the writers 819 00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:50.119 of the show was thinking about it in that way or and it could have 820 00:54:50.159 --> 00:54:53.519 been treated in a much more nilance and interesting way that would have depicted ambulatory 821 00:54:54.000 --> 00:55:00.000 or dynamic disability. But I think, to me, there something kind of 822 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:05.679 relieving about, oh, these this disabled character can tap into the forest for 823 00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:07.760 these moments of energy where they really need to perform in a love but they 824 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:13.719 otherwise cannot. And as a particularly as a martial artist, that was that 825 00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:19.280 was interesting to me, even though obviously there are it's beyond the pale. 826 00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:22.559 I think, I think I can definitely understand that, and that makes a 827 00:55:22.599 --> 00:55:24.280 lot of sense, And I like, I like you am also ambulatory, 828 00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:27.840 And then I use my prosthetic leg a lot. I'm using it less these 829 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:30.920 days. But and again that's the kind of planning for me often is the 830 00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:32.519 way you were kind of like planning your day around this. You know, 831 00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:36.880 if I'm going on a four day trip and I know this night we're gonna 832 00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:38.800 go out dancing. Although okay, so I will absolutely not use my leg 833 00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:43.400 except for that because it's you know, it's it's most saving energy. But 834 00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:45.440 it's also like I started to get scabbed. I mean, there's this whole 835 00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:50.079 let of thing. And I think it comes back to her saying before. 836 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:52.960 It's not that I would say like, no, Yoda has to use the 837 00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:58.239 cane always and forever. It's that I just want that one line of dialogue. 838 00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:00.559 Yep, you know it's that you know, you know, uh, 839 00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:05.239 bail organa coming him in the ship and mean like are you okay? And 840 00:56:05.239 --> 00:56:07.639 he say, I had to draw deeply on the force so that I could 841 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:12.000 use my body to fight, and now I really have to rest. You 842 00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:17.480 know, some acknowledgement that he is fighting was radically different than he's using the 843 00:56:17.559 --> 00:56:22.920 cane, and that there's a cost to him of using all of that you 844 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:24.880 know, energy or spoons or whatever the heck or force or whatever you want 845 00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:28.880 to call it. Yeah, I absolutely agree, And I think you know 846 00:56:28.960 --> 00:56:32.880 that goes back to like it's there's so many different ways to portray disability, 847 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:39.079 it's kind of hard to like get it so unbelievably wrong. The question is 848 00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:43.760 what's the message, what's the story, what's the reasoning? And is this 849 00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.519 a is this an add on or is this a part of the character. 850 00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:50.880 And if it's a part of the character, why are there not these little 851 00:56:50.920 --> 00:56:54.199 details that they're absolutely could and should be to send a clear message to your 852 00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:59.960 audience, like this person is disabled and that's okay, And we're not using 853 00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:06.280 this as a metaphor allegory or a negative or a drawback or a weird add 854 00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:09.400 on to create some sort of effect. M. Yeah, No, I 855 00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:13.039 think you're right, and I think that's it's as I said before, it's 856 00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:15.920 very clear there wasn't a disabled person in that writing room. Yeah. I 857 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:17.320 don't think it's written in a writing room, and I think the writing of 858 00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:22.559 you know, never mind. But like you know, I think and I 859 00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:27.440 don't think they were trying to tell a story about how Yoda is a person 860 00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:30.639 of variable ability, you know, and a fluid ability. I think they 861 00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:35.320 just thought watching a little green ball of ford bounced around with the lightsaberworth a 862 00:57:35.400 --> 00:57:37.239 really cool so let's do it and didn't think about what the ilocations were. 863 00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:42.119 I agree. I agree. Well, this has been such a good discussion. 864 00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:44.159 I'm really glad we've got to have it. I know we just barely 865 00:57:44.159 --> 00:57:45.599 scratched the service, but I hope we give a listeners kind of a good 866 00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:49.400 introduction, isn't it the last points that you want to bring up? And 867 00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:52.119 I will say for our members, we're going to talk a little bit more 868 00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:57.599 about AHAB and disability in the members only section, but just in general, 869 00:57:57.719 --> 00:58:00.239 kind of any of the last promit's points you wanted to make. Yeah, 870 00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:00.920 I don't think so. I think you know, at the end of the 871 00:58:01.000 --> 00:58:07.199 day, for me, sci fi representation and any representation of disability just comes 872 00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:10.800 down to, like, have you interacted with disabled people and are you considering 873 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:16.880 disabled people as disabled people and not just like people with a disability slapped onto 874 00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:22.719 them. Yeah, And I think the phrase people there is so important because 875 00:58:22.800 --> 00:58:25.639 you know, like you said, like you and I have a particular you 876 00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:30.400 and I are share a lot of similar opinions, but also probably see some 877 00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:34.199 things differently, and so like you know, you might go to one disabled 878 00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:37.440 person who I know, there are you know, some visually impaired people who 879 00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:40.719 you know, understand the story of data novel. I think it's absolutely amazing, 880 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:45.360 and some who think it's incredibly you know, offensive, and and a 881 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:46.519 lot of people who are like, yeah, it's just not it's a fun 882 00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:50.000 story, but it's not the best. I don't feel represented in it, 883 00:58:50.519 --> 00:58:52.840 and and yeah, so it seems like with any community it's important not just 884 00:58:52.920 --> 00:58:55.760 have like you know, your one disabled friend, but all the rest of 885 00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:59.519 it. Well, thank you as always so much. For people who want 886 00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:00.960 to find more of the cool content you're putting out, where can they find 887 00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:06.119 you? Yeah, I am on Instagram, I do art at Iron Kingdom 888 00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:10.920 Adventures, and then I'm on TikTok at a King Maiden. Yeah, definitely 889 00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:15.519 worth checking out. Really glad to level all your content. Love following it, 890 00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:17.119 definitely encourage other people to do so, and of course you should follow 891 00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:22.119 our content. We're active on TikTok on Twitter. I may be doing more 892 00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:23.639 stuff on Facebook again. I kind of dropped out for a little while, 893 00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:27.800 but I maybe doing with that again. But also you can certainly email us. 894 00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:30.719 I'd love to hear your thoughts, love to hear comments if you're disabled, 895 00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:34.239 Like, who are characters that have really felt did represent you or didn't 896 00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:37.639 were like points the conversation we missed out if you're able bodied or just you 897 00:59:37.639 --> 00:59:40.239 know, it's not two firm boxes. There's lots of middle ground. But 898 00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:43.920 wherever you sit, what do you think about this discussion? What'd you agree 899 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:45.880 with? What'd you disagree with? What did you wish we touched on? 900 00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:47.800 Or I think we should have approached a different way right in, we'd love 901 00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:51.440 to hear us. And of course, also if you just go to the 902 00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:54.119 Ethical Panda, you'll get there. But also if you just follow the links 903 00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:57.719 in the show notes there especially you can find out how to become a member. 904 00:59:57.920 --> 01:00:01.360 It's only five dollars a month, and membership gets you add free content, 905 01:00:01.440 --> 01:00:05.079 bonus content, and she's a great way to support the show. So 906 01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:08.519 okay, thank you again so much. Uh for everyone else we have spoken