WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:19.559 Thank you for listening to Pictures Media Radio. Welcome to Policy and Rights, 2 00:00:21.160 --> 00:01:04.599 the show about the government, policy and human rights five four three two one. 3 00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:11.079 Welcome back to Policy and Rights here in Depictionspad Radio. I am your 4 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:19.599 host, Michael Cloggs. I have a BBC report in my inbox and police 5 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:30.480 and protesters have clashed in Buenos Ari's as controversial economic reform cleared a hurdle in 6 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:42.359 the Argentine state. We take and look at the President Javier Mullane's measures and 7 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:49.599 records so far as world leaders arrive in Italy for the G seven uh mark. 8 00:01:53.200 --> 00:02:00.599 There's an article from from the BBC and Mark Loewen as he reports on 9 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:07.480 how the country is prepared for the gathering and what's on the agenda. So 10 00:02:07.520 --> 00:02:17.159 let's read some highlights from from that report. And here there have been violent 11 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:27.759 clashes in brenezz AI's outside of the Congress building where senators are narrowly approved President 12 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:38.560 Javier Malayian's controversial economic reform package. Footage captured and we will put this BBC 13 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:45.599 report linked for this BBC report up on h Depictions dot media, so you 14 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:53.120 can see the police footage that that that they captured of police using tear gas 15 00:02:53.199 --> 00:03:10.120 on protesters and mister Malay is actually described as a self styled libertarian, was 16 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:22.000 elected with close to fifty six percent of the vote last year, promising drastic 17 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:30.199 change measures to the country's spiraling inflation and poverty rates. So he has been 18 00:03:30.240 --> 00:03:37.560 making massive changes and we will put that report on our news blog. We 19 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:46.039 don't have any updates on today on what's happening in Gaza, so we're still 20 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:52.680 at the same point where we don't know if all sides are going to agree 21 00:03:52.719 --> 00:04:00.319 to the ceasefire agreement that was approved on at the beginning of the of the 22 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:08.159 week, and we'll still be keeping an eye on that to see how that 23 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:15.879 actually pans out. We're going to go to the US and of course you 24 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:25.399 heard a couple of days ago about Hunter Biden, Joe Biden's son, being 25 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.720 found guilty on all charges, and of course we're waiting to hear about sentencing 26 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:42.240 on that. And according to CNN report, the President Biden, as well 27 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:46.800 as Justin Trudeau is for those in Canada are on their way to the G 28 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:56.600 seven summit, where it's expected they're going to talk about crucial policies. And 29 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:04.839 here's the CNN report on that the leaders of the the most powerful economies are 30 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:15.480 converting to stay in Italy for the crucial policy discussions. A major focus on 31 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:23.040 Russia and its war in Ukraine, with the G seven set to announce a 32 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:30.759 series of joint initiatives as they look to rebuild alliances that stand up to Russia's 33 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:41.560 aggression. President Joe Biden arrived with over three hundred news sanctions armed further isolating 34 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:53.079 the country and limiting the Kremlin's revenues. He also is set to sign a 35 00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:02.079 long term security pack with Ukraine, sources tell the and then the agreement is 36 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:13.959 expected to commit the United States to attend year continued training of European armed forces. 37 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:25.480 So it looks like the the United States is looking to get further involved 38 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:34.399 with the war in Ukraine. And this is also coming as warships from Russia 39 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:42.279 also arrived in Cuban waters, which, if you know anything at all about 40 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:50.839 the geography of North America, Cuba is about thirty to forty miles off the 41 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.480 coast of Florida. Matter of fact, if you have a good pair of 42 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:05.360 binoculars or I have decent telescope, actually view the coastline of Cuba from the 43 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:13.399 coastline of Florida, and it's not like there's a lot of obstruction because you're 44 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:20.519 just going across the Atlantic waters there. So we had to see how that 45 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:27.439 all develops because mister Putin is showing that he can flex muscle. Also, 46 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:38.319 so in Donald Trump is in d C. Former President Donald Trump is scheduled 47 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:47.360 to meet with Republicans on Capitol Hill today for the first time since becoming the 48 00:07:47.439 --> 00:08:00.879 presumptive Republican nominee, as well as as a convicted felon. His appearance will 49 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:09.800 also mark some of the meetings first key with GOP lawmakers since January sixth, 50 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:20.160 twenty twenty one, the insurrection there, including Senate GOP leader Mitch McConnell, 51 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:31.279 and an effort to shore up the party's support for mister Trump. So we're 52 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:37.879 going to hear from Elizabeth may As. She is going to be giving a 53 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:52.519 review of the report that she read from the NSI COP on foreign interference. 54 00:08:54.120 --> 00:09:01.159 So we're going to hear remarks from her about that, and she's speaking with 55 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:07.399 reporters on Parliament Hill. This is actually recorded June eleventh, and what she 56 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:16.000 learned from reading the full unredacted report from the National Security and Intelligence Committee on 57 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:33.200 Parliament Hill. The report alleged parliamentarians wit lily or willfully aided foreign interferes and 58 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:41.879 in Canada's domestic political affairs. So why don't we move on to that particular 59 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:50.159 segment and here what Elizabeth May actually has to say about that. And okay, 60 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:56.480 before we get to Elizabeth May, though, we have government plans to 61 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:03.879 extend pension eligibility for frontline workers, and we're going this is going to be 62 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:13.480 hearing from Anita Anon as she is the in Ottawa with the bond Treasury President 63 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:24.759 Anita Non announces the federal plans to expand early pension eligibility for certain frontline workers, 64 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:33.480 including firefighters, paramedics, border service officers, and the government will introduce 65 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:43.879 legislation changes in fall of twenty twenty twenty four to implement the expansion. So 66 00:10:43.120 --> 00:10:50.360 why don't we hear from Elizabeth May and then we will hear from Anita A. 67 00:10:50.480 --> 00:11:03.879 Non anjou toulement. Good morning everyone, Happy Public Service Awareness Week. 68 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:11.799 Bon semen nacionale de la funcient public notreuven e de tereminer a puill l function 69 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:22.799 charges de portegi, la surquiriti la curiti des Canadian from firefighters confronting wildfires, 70 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:30.200 to paramedics helping keep communities safe, to border services officers maintaining this safe flow 71 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:35.919 of people and products across the borders. These frontline workers play crucial roles and 72 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:43.000 they deserve a pension plan that reflects the demanding nature of their safety and security 73 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.919 responsibilities. On December twenty first, twenty twenty three, I received a recommendation 74 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:56.519 from the Public Service Pension Advisory Committee on expanding the eligibility for early retirement to 75 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:03.320 occupational groups who promote the safe and the security of Canadians. Ce diisposition per 76 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:13.639 matred de prantreeetret vas sencan de Servis Saint Fredric. Today, following careful consideration 77 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:20.200 over many minutess, I am announcing that in the fall of twenty twenty four, 78 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:28.679 we will introduce legislative changes to expand the eligibility for early pensions, specifically 79 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:37.919 to frontline employees in the following groups firefighters, paramedics, correctional service employees, 80 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:48.840 border services officers, parliamentary protection officers, and search and rescue technicians. These 81 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:58.240 proposed changes will provide consistency to how the pension plan recognizes the demanding nature of 82 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:05.240 day to day duties for these occupational groups who have an absolutely critical role in 83 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:13.799 promoting and protecting the safety and security of the population of our country. Antin 84 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:22.600 leplu Grand Employer up knows some reconnaissance de la conte division continued disease employer, 85 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:31.279 the Premier len the lsemble do service public knows some ampacion. The travaillier are 86 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:45.840 vectot les partis poor, adoptee list amand legislative necesse leplu rapidment possible merci reservoir 87 00:13:52.360 --> 00:14:16.399 one question Jeanne more confirmed me for the concessi ess gestion. The Tavai police 88 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:28.240 Jean Marcia Banjo c a vu, Premier Majder, Trellte Travai sit in Mattiac, 89 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:37.679 new branderrier and new Continuan. The travailla vec les Sandca poor sass kills 90 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:48.480 lesapri necess a poor travailler, she's a ultra plas, don't sit in Ange 91 00:14:48.840 --> 00:15:00.279 deter Ronald travy don les bureau a combos set nepa in Mattia, downtownt a 92 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:09.080 less Sandia for me, ain't you done avel convention collective poor seta sets on 93 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:28.840 sas set in a contrldtai the set onto von at republic cale sandeka de fersar 94 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:37.159 your pansc snapper and matter POMOI the debu gu ledetai matn. Come on tell 95 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:46.600 you if he's a set complete, Come on tell you if he's a less 96 00:15:46.480 --> 00:16:06.600 Conusa van pre lt Sir poor r v are in ontongsable poor le don't lidetai 97 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:18.440 vont etrepublic meca le sendeca vad de fersa. And the question of the three 98 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:22.440 days a week back in the office, where's that standing and have you been 99 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:27.759 getting grievances? We have heard from public servants for sure, but I want 100 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:32.759 to reiterate that that was a decision that was taken by the public service for 101 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:37.519 the public service. It was a decision taken by Deputy ministers as well as 102 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:41.360 the Clerk of the Privy Council. It was not a political decision. And 103 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:48.240 so what I am here today to announce is something that is within my purview, 104 00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:53.399 which is support for public servants in the area of their pension benefits. 105 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.480 These are issues that have been in front of me since I became Minister, 106 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:03.440 and in fact in front of Minister Fortier when she was Minister, we are 107 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:08.400 pleased to be able to accept the recommendations of the ps PAC Committee so that 108 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:14.359 we can provide pension supports to public servants who are on the front lines for 109 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.079 our country, especially in the time of forest fires and floods, where we 110 00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:22.200 rely on these individuals. I want to thank them for their incredible work and 111 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:27.319 we are so pleased to be able to put forward legislative amendments in the fall 112 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:33.000 of ord their pension benefits in early retirement. So you're in charge of the 113 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.279 Treasury Board, which means you're in charge of the public service, then why 114 00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:40.079 leave it up to the bureaucrats instead of you giving the direction? So the 115 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:47.240 direction came from the Minister prior to me and our government that return to office 116 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:52.279 was not going to be part of the collective agreement. That was the decision 117 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.599 that was taken and that was accepted by the Union, and we continue to 118 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:04.480 walk down that path, will continue to support our public servants wherever and however 119 00:18:04.640 --> 00:18:10.400 possible, within the bounds of collective agreements, of course, and within the 120 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:11.799 bounds of what we can do as in a government. But I want to 121 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:18.200 stress today that the announcement is about early retirement and pension benefits for public servants. 122 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.559 And I really don't want to underpestimate the magnitude of what I am announcing 123 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:30.880 today in terms of these are issues and requests and concerns that frontline workers and 124 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:36.920 the union heads themselves have brought forward to us repeatedly. One of my first 125 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:42.000 meetings as Minister as President of the Treasury Board was actually with firefighters from D 126 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:48.680 and D where I heard from them how important it was for them to have 127 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.200 early retirement benefits. I want to thank them for sharing their stories with me, 128 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.599 and I want to thank Chris Alword for bringing that meeting together so that 129 00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:03.359 we could have a meaningful and fruitful converceation when I first started as President of 130 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:07.359 the Treasury Board. And I will just say those conversations are very important to 131 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.359 me and I have not forgotten them. Thank you. Yeah, anis listen. 132 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.640 I'm wondering if you can share how much expanding these benefits will cost. 133 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:21.559 Most definitely I would love to provide you with that information. The cost of 134 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:27.400 expanding early retirement eligibility is estimated to include a one time cost of approximately one 135 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:36.599 hundred and seventy five million dollars and ongoing annual costs of approximately twenty one million 136 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:41.400 dollars. That is the precise answer to your question. And also in the 137 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.359 future, do you expect to expand benefits to other public servants as well or 138 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:55.240 we are definitely open to receiving recommendations from the ps PAC committee. Again, 139 00:19:55.400 --> 00:20:02.519 I want to reiterate that the rationale for the the announcement today and the groups 140 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:07.400 who are covered, which is a sizeable list of function function as of public 141 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:14.720 service services, sizable group here firefighters, paramedics, correctional service employees, border 142 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:21.960 services officers, parliamentary protection officers, search and rescue technicians. The rationale for 143 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:30.119 that particular group is as follows, the demanding and risky nature of the duty, 144 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:37.359 the demanding training and certification requirements, and the lack of opportunity for public 145 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.799 service mobility. And so I will say that there's a rationale there. But 146 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:48.440 the conversation with the ps PAC committee continues, and I look forward to having 147 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.119 that committee. And you can see how seriously I have taken their recommendations and 148 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:59.480 how seriously I take the conversation with them. Thank you letters for the interest 149 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:04.799 of time, just because those speakers cred is going sort uh cofering may have 150 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:11.160 policy options. If you've you still have how many more sort of safety security 151 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:17.119 law enforcement workers that are not covered? And if you've gone this far for 152 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:22.200 these who are seeking, particularly the border guards parody with the RCMP, is 153 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:27.039 are you have you accept Has Treasure Board accepted that principle of parody with the 154 00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:33.880 RCaMP UH Treasury Board is very much engaged with the ps PAC committee and the 155 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:38.440 rationales that they put forward, and I just listed those three rationales. That 156 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:45.720 is the reasoning behind h the announcement that I am making right nowison We are 157 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:51.160 not We are taking each group in and of itself in terms of the work 158 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:56.319 that they do for our country that does not seek to minimize the work of 159 00:21:56.440 --> 00:21:59.759 other groups. And as I said, I look forward to making sure that 160 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:04.319 we have that conversation with the PSPAC committee. But it would be fairly superficial 161 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:10.200 to say that the reasoning behind all of this is parity with another group. 162 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:17.400 There's actually been months and months of thinking about the rationale for extended pension benefits 163 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:22.319 and once again we are approaching a very hot summer. We are going to 164 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.680 see public servants put their lives on the line, which they do without hesitation 165 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:33.519 and the announcement today is about recognizing that work, recognizing the harm that confronts 166 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:37.920 these public servants every single day, or the potential harm. And while we 167 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.160 do not wish harm obviously on anyone, we want to be there as a 168 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:45.240 government to support the work that they do each and every day. So it's 169 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:51.559 my follow up if you if not forgotten that allow up. So do you 170 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:56.160 think you could have got this deal that we're going to hear about today if 171 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.119 there wasn't this separate agreement on pensions, which seem to be a big land. 172 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:06.880 By law, the decisions still could have if you could just let me 173 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:15.400 finish. By law, we are required to ensure that pensions do not court 174 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:21.200 the collective bargaining process, and that's exactly what we made sure to do. 175 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:25.960 There are two separate processes here. One was the bargaining on the collective agreement. 176 00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:30.119 The other has been going on long before the last ten days, which 177 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:36.599 is a consideration of the recommendations that came to me in December twenty twenty three 178 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.720 about how we can better support public servants in terms of their pension, in 179 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:45.880 terms of our work going forward. Again in a few weeks, i'll be 180 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:52.319 announcing new members of the committee, the PSPAC Committee, and I look forward 181 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:56.480 to working with those members and taking further recommendations from the committee. This is 182 00:23:56.519 --> 00:24:02.960 about collaboration and cooperation in terms of supports for public servants. That's the approach 183 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.680 I take to negotiation, and that's the approach I will take in this position 184 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:11.960 every day of the week. NA great question on behalf of all the local 185 00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:15.759 Did you need to do this for the tension of border guard deal the timing 186 00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:21.880 As you can see, the number of people who are covered by this announcement 187 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:27.440 extend far beyond the border workers. So what we needed to do is respond 188 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:33.759 to the recommendations that came to me in December twenty twenty three and the work 189 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:38.039 that Minister Fortier had undertaken. And that's exactly what I'm ensuring I do. 190 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:42.559 As you know, I'm a minister that likes to ensure I am acting and 191 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:47.680 in fact, you and I have had numerous conversations on different files over the 192 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:49.759 last two weeks, and so you can see that I take my work extremely 193 00:24:49.839 --> 00:24:56.279 seriously and wanted to make sure that before the end of session I signaled that 194 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.240 we will be introducing legislation in the fall, and on the point about why 195 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:04.839 the fall is that we have a very very charged legislative agenda right now with 196 00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.079 less than a week left to go. But I wanted to make sure that 197 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:15.240 the department at the Treasury Board worked across government over the summer to make sure 198 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:19.279 that we were ready first thing in the fall to table that recommended recommended legislation, 199 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:38.759 recommend may own examine, recommend sot avanca, laminist Refortier, don reque 200 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:57.920 la sieu pard vont continue that we le mayor service public donot Thank you, 201 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:18.319 Melcy c c montcleg Deputy to Kitchener as Sault Mike Morris, I want to 202 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:26.720 share with Canadians what I learned from reading the top secret version of this, 203 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:33.640 the Special Report on Foreign Interference in Canada's Democratic Processes and Institutions. This is 204 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.200 the redacted, available to the public version, which I'm keeping near me for 205 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:44.839 reference now and then. But this is the work of the National Security and 206 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:55.319 Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians and they have done incredible work. I learned a lot 207 00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:59.240 from reading this. I'm going to read a prepared statement, which is not 208 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:03.519 my normal way way of going, but I as someone who has obtained top 209 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:10.000 secret security clearance, which is what allowed me to read the complete, unredacted 210 00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:14.240 report. I want to choose my words carefully, so I prepared some and 211 00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:18.799 then I won't be prepared to take questions in English and French. Forgive me, 212 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:22.559 I'll say right now. I usually answered quickly and off the top of 213 00:27:22.599 --> 00:27:29.000 my head. You'll find today that I'm going to stop and think. Depending 214 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:33.720 on your questions, I'll have to consider am I trespassing or coming near the 215 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:41.160 line where I might inadvertently hit a tripwire to a national security issue? So 216 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:49.640 I'll stop and be careful. There are in this report names of MPs and 217 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:59.559 the MPs whose names should be known. Members of the committee across party lines 218 00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:07.039 have don stellar work on a very difficult set of ISSU issues. They should 219 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:12.119 be better known and they should be thanked. This is a very innovative thing. 220 00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:18.960 The National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians. It's chaired by David McGuinty, 221 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:27.599 includes Stefan Bacheron Liberal, Don Davies NDP, Praticia Latinizou, Rob Morrison 222 00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:37.880 Conservative, Alex russ Rough Conservative and several Senators Patricia Duncan, Francis Lancin and 223 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:44.640 Marty Klein. I am in awe of their work. Frankly, having read 224 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:49.480 the complete unreducted report, this is not easy stuff and the work that they 225 00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:55.400 did. I do think all Canadians should be aware of their work and thanking 226 00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.440 them, because they really have to work in the shadows and they have to 227 00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:02.400 honor their top secret security Clarence. Being a member of this committee has hardly 228 00:29:02.440 --> 00:29:07.759 gotten them the limelight or a lot of thanks. This report focuses on a 229 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:15.559 critical issue about which Canadians should know more the extent to which foreign governments seek 230 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:22.960 to influence Canadian political life, hoping to impact domestic policies while advancing their own 231 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:33.559 countries reputations se repose de conseil consints so in questi essenciel sur laquel les Canadien 232 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:44.440 de v revoi la messieur don la guel les gouveniment a t schesch affluencee la 233 00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:52.599 ville politique. Canadian foreign governments also attempt to interfere. I'm just going to 234 00:29:52.720 --> 00:30:00.319 underscore first sentence is about influencing. Second interfering, foreign governments also at to 235 00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:10.920 interfere with our democratic processes across national and sub national electoral politics. Influence and 236 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:17.599 interference are related but different. We need to know more about the tactics and 237 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:25.640 strategies used by foreign actors in both categories, especially when actual interference is involved. 238 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:33.200 The threat of foreign governments working against Canada's interests attempting to impact Canada must 239 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:41.519 be a specific and more deeply understood threat, especially for people seeking elected offices. 240 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:53.240 Mala rosmons a travaill a pulton a ete eclipse pa lutmpet mediatique two da 241 00:30:53.359 --> 00:31:04.240 fe comprehensible, qui amonavi eh exaggerate. Unfortunately, that important work has been 242 00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:15.599 eclipsed by a totally understandable media firestorm, which in my view is overblown. 243 00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:25.119 I have been asked many times, in slightly different ways, how it feels 244 00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:32.559 to sit in a parliament knowing that there are potential traitors among us. Shouldn't 245 00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:37.759 the public have a right to know which MPs have sold out their country for 246 00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:48.400 benefit or favor from a foreign government. Having read the full unredacted National Security 247 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:56.799 Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarian's report for myself, I can say I have no worries 248 00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:06.519 about anyone in the House of Commons. There is no list of MPs who 249 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:15.640 have shown disloyalty to Canada. There is no list of MPs who have shown 250 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:20.559 disloyalty to Canada, so I am very glad I read the full report. 251 00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:28.759 I am very comfortable sitting with my colleagues. We will disagree on policy and 252 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:37.519 on many issues, but I am vastly relieved. The most worrying case, 253 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:45.480 found at page twenty six of the publicly available report, is one referenced instance 254 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:53.880 of a member of Parliament proactively and that's in quotes in the public document proactively 255 00:32:54.039 --> 00:33:06.079 sharing privileged infrared information with a foreign operative. That person should be fully investigated 256 00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:16.640 and prosecuted. That person is a former MP. The few named people may 257 00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:24.640 be compromised. They have been beneficiaries of foreign governments interfering in nomination contassists. 258 00:33:27.359 --> 00:33:32.519 Saying as I do that I'm relieved does not mean that there is nothing to 259 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:37.160 see here, folks, So let's forget the whole thing. There are clearly 260 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:45.400 threats to Canadian democracy from foreign governments. I would like to suggest to all 261 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:52.640 colleagues in Parliament, particularly leaders of the other parties, that we refocus our 262 00:33:52.759 --> 00:34:02.079 public statements and parliamentary debates on what steps need to be taken to better protect 263 00:34:02.359 --> 00:34:10.159 our democracy. It is clear some foreign governments see Canada as a pretty vulnerable 264 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:20.039 soft target. All recommendations of the hard working National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians 265 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:28.239 should be implemented. They have worked harder and have more deep background than any 266 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:36.599 other MP. For myself, I suggest we fortify the binding nature of our 267 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:43.599 oath when we are sworn in as members of Parliament. The Ethics Commissioner should 268 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:51.559 be mandated to work with our intelligence community and specifically be prepared to issue reports 269 00:34:52.280 --> 00:34:59.039 or on investigation. It is clear the MP has failed to put their loyalty 270 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:07.039 to Canada above any other interest, particularly above personal benefit. This must be 271 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:17.440 extended to the influence of foreign transnational corporations. Those are my conclusions. I'm 272 00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:24.440 happy to answer any questions that this statement has given rise to from the journalists 273 00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:29.800 here present. Should the person you made reference to on page twenty six be 274 00:35:29.960 --> 00:35:37.559 named absolutely? That is again, the person on page twenty six to whom 275 00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:46.599 I referred proactively shared privileged information with a foreign operative. There. As you 276 00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:51.480 remember from all the coverage so far, in ter the language of the report, 277 00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:58.360 there's been these categories of witting and unwitting. This individual was entirely aware 278 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:05.599 of the circumstances and was wait, that person former MP whose name is not 279 00:36:05.719 --> 00:36:10.199 included in the report should be fully investigated and prosecuted. Their name is not 280 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.639 in the report, that they're they're not named in the they are not named 281 00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:27.079 in the unredacted faull version Commune come up with the expecus term signs not try 282 00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:37.480 that way? Would tea Eli I am lounge rapport antierre me lunge de lance, 283 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:45.320 me lange de rapport and me lange de situa diferrent the person el the 284 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:52.920 on le de ferrant governor to Canada. The person and chef chefrie cos Le 285 00:36:53.039 --> 00:37:04.119 cheffrie Reale's example to te fe deferrent may lamprescient e trier canoue es avant actual 286 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:22.360 mont On parliament avete deputy qui en feles en fevre de Canada. We have 287 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:27.480 seen the creation of the impression and I don't think it was. It's inevitable 288 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:32.159 given the kind of accusations that I found shocking. I found myself looking around 289 00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:38.239 a colleagues wondering who could it be who would sell out this country? Right, 290 00:37:38.360 --> 00:37:42.679 it's it's it's it's discribeting. It was a relief to see in the 291 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:47.360 report that this specific narrow category, and I want to be very specific about 292 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:54.360 it. Are there currently MPs sitting with us in the Chamber who would set 293 00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:00.559 out knowingly to sell out Canada for personal benefit? If there are, there's 294 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:05.360 no evidence of that in the full report. What about the Senate? This 295 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:09.719 Senate is there were no references specifically to the Senate in the report that I 296 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:15.880 read In terms of no, I'm speaking specifically to the House of Commons and 297 00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:19.920 elected people, so other than my person on page twenty six. Do you 298 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:23.440 know the names of the other parliamentarian flagged in the report? There are very 299 00:38:23.639 --> 00:38:28.920 There are not many names in the report. To be very clear, I've 300 00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:35.599 been cautioned every word I reviewed with you just now. I carefully vetted with 301 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:42.119 security experts parts and got advice from the Privy Council Office. One of the 302 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:47.159 areas in which they have warned me I could betray some degree of confidentiality and 303 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:54.679 even potentially expose current intelligence assets of the Government of Canada, and even risk 304 00:38:55.199 --> 00:39:02.239 the personal safety and physical security of such assets would be by using specific numbers. 305 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:08.960 But I feel comfortable telling you that of other names of people MPs be 306 00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:13.800 very careful and say members of Parliament. Is there other names in the report 307 00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:20.400 of different categories of personages, but of members of Parliament named in the full 308 00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:24.360 unredacted report, And I will not give a specific number, And I think 309 00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:34.159 I'm safe to say very low number, fewer than a handful, and no 310 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:42.079 one in that fewer than a handful would could be described as setting out to 311 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:46.039 knowingly betray Canada in favor of a foreign government. And having seen this, 312 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:50.760 then do you think that these names that there's any reason for these names to 313 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:59.440 be publicly released? Not at this stage. No, I do think we 314 00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:04.360 need better tools. This is why I'm going to vote against the block Quebec 315 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.320 WA motion that I have to tell you before reading this report yesterday, I 316 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.400 was going to vote in fair of it. I think it's a hot potato. 317 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:14.599 So throw it to Madam Justice Hoak. That's not good enough. We're 318 00:40:14.679 --> 00:40:16.840 members of parliament. We should be able to look at that. We end, 319 00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:22.119 especially those of us who have the clearance to read the report, should 320 00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:28.440 be able to read it, consider it and start fortifying our own defenses against 321 00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:36.400 foreign interference. But no, what's known publicly right now is what can be 322 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:39.760 known publicly and I really think that we've gone up that, I mean, 323 00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:45.599 we barking up the wrong tree to insist that the list of names of MPs 324 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:51.239 who there isn't a list of names of MPs. To frustrated that none of 325 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.000 go ahead you want us through? How you got to this moment of relief 326 00:40:54.039 --> 00:40:58.800 though? Is it because of the intelligence isn't corroborated? Is it because there's 327 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:01.840 just not enough detail? I think it's like paragraph one sixty four clearly lays 328 00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:07.159 out a list of concerns that nty cop had about MPs who are semulating or 329 00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:10.760 help me and say, there's there's a list there. So what makes you 330 00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:16.119 believe that that that list perhaps is overblown? Well, having read thement, 331 00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:49.960 just go back to paragraph one sixty four and make sure again what is contained 332 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:58.159 in the full unredacted report does not suggest, I mean again that this is 333 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:02.440 the unredactive The Committee has seen troubling intelligence that some parliamentarians are, in the 334 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:07.800 words of intelligence services, semi witting or witting participants in the efforts of foreign 335 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:14.239 states to interfere in our politics. Again, those words are carefully chosen as 336 00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:21.119 well. The efforts of foreign states to interfere in our politics that's concerning. 337 00:42:22.360 --> 00:42:27.320 But when I had previously said to media, if someone has sold out our 338 00:42:27.400 --> 00:42:36.679 country for money or for benefit, they're traders, participants, and efforts of 339 00:42:37.239 --> 00:42:45.159 efforts of foreign states to interfere is far short of a prosecuting offensive traders of 340 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:55.239 treachery, or performing acts that could be considered traitorous, disloyal, witting semi 341 00:42:55.320 --> 00:43:01.280 witting participants in efforts of foreign states to interfere in our politics, and then 342 00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:08.719 again communicating frequently with foreign missions or during a political campaign to obtain support from 343 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:15.639 community groups or businesses. Now, there are a lot of different actors, 344 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:19.280 and this is another thing that comes out when we read the whole report. 345 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:23.480 For those who would get a chance to do so. Foreign governments are targeting 346 00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:29.519 not only elected member's apartment, but people seeking election at many different levels of 347 00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:37.400 government. Provincial governments are also mentioned in this report. There's also and I 348 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:39.639 say in the unadapted version or I wouldn't trustpass on saying it out loud. 349 00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:46.039 Now, community that was a surprise to me, the extent to which particularly 350 00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:57.239 identified cultural community groups are recruited, and then those groups also seek to create 351 00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:07.039 relationships with people who might someday being a physician to exercise some influence over an 352 00:44:07.079 --> 00:44:10.840 elected person or a member of cabinet or so on. So again, a 353 00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:17.400 lot of this isn't new. I refreshed my memory. We've ignored some warning 354 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:22.840 signs in the past. I'll take you down. I was gonna say memory 355 00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:28.719 Lane, but many of you would not remember this. The nineteen eighty three 356 00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:36.440 leadership convention at which Brian mulroney defeated Joe Clark. It was only some years 357 00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:43.760 later that we discovered it was foreign money produced by Karl Heintz Schreiber to pay 358 00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:51.840 for people to show up in generally the anti Clark camp. That became public 359 00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:57.119 knowledge when exposed by the CBC in the Fifth Estate some years later. I 360 00:44:57.360 --> 00:45:02.440 was shocked the idea that some right wing Germans had decided to change who was 361 00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:08.360 leading the Conservative Party. There are a number of references in this report to 362 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:15.519 leadership races in different parties. I think we need to be quite alert to 363 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:21.039 the threats. What I'm trying to say is that we don't want to be 364 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:29.079 distracted in our efforts to better understand foreign interference, better protect our democracy by 365 00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:34.119 the thought that there's a list of MPs somewhere and their traders and should be 366 00:45:34.199 --> 00:45:39.800 exposed. That does not exist. So, having concluded from reading the full 367 00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:45.360 report that there is no list there to be released, the next question is 368 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:54.000 could the whole report be released? No, there's protected top secret security information 369 00:45:54.320 --> 00:46:01.400 in that report, intelligence reports and so on that could sposed Canadian assets and 370 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:08.519 undermine our security intelligence services. I'm very concerned, by the way, by 371 00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:15.480 the extent to which we don't know who's still within ceases sent privileged, top 372 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:20.719 secret information to members of the media. There's a mixed bag of a story 373 00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:24.480 there, but we I need to be very careful. I'm one of the 374 00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:29.519 few members of Parliament with top secret security clearance. I'm going to do my 375 00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:31.800 best to answer every question as fully as honestly as I can for you. 376 00:46:32.599 --> 00:46:36.960 The whole report can't be released, But if the whole report were released, 377 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:43.639 it would not reveal a list of names of currently sitting INPs. Fact Age 378 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:47.599 twenty six extended. You see which country this person was helping? And can 379 00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:58.679 you say I did see? And I can't say it's good. It'scuse s 380 00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:10.760 lo someding some the deputy. Yeah no, the deputy. We party on 381 00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:30.199 shows, come la Deputy dejah Mon page advances shows avec connaissance fake shows or 382 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:49.880 favor don government a contrave maybe like Los Deputy report here the norm mentions liberty, 383 00:47:51.599 --> 00:48:00.280 the h donate the norm des deputy par deja monsigne don't le media a 384 00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:23.880 report publique ecomquisson affl a mon avi. That's why, in reading the full 385 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:31.400 report, the few other members of Parliament mentioned are in the category where even 386 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:37.400 the intelligence reports suggest, I mean, we can go from witting and unwitting 387 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:42.119 to wilful blindness. Should they have known? Should they have figured it out? 388 00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:45.360 Who was paying for the buses to get people to show up to vote 389 00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:51.760 in different contests. That's been going on for years in Canada. As we 390 00:48:51.920 --> 00:48:57.440 know, bus loads of people can show up at nomination contests. Not green 391 00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:01.119 nomination contests have loads of people showing up, and we'd sure noticed if they 392 00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:07.719 showed up and we didn't know them. But you know, electric vehicles, 393 00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:13.480 smart cars trying to storm a nomination meeting, we'd noticed right off the bat. 394 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:17.599 I'm sorry, but bus loads of people that you don't know showing up 395 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:27.880 a nomination contest is I'm afraid not on typical in Canadian politics. If those 396 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:31.199 busloads of people were paid by Carl Heine Schreiber. We know that happened in 397 00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:37.360 nineteen eighty three with real consequence. So how much more do we learn from 398 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:40.360 this? Do? I think we need to do a lot more as Canadians 399 00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:51.960 to pay attention to malign influences of foreign governments. You bet, And I 400 00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:58.119 think to focus on that will be more productive than to keep wondering. It 401 00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:00.719 reminds you Joseph McCarthy days and they found the microfilm in the pumpkin, I 402 00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:05.719 mean, the whole thing. Well, it couldn't remind anybody of that because 403 00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:08.800 you're all too young. I was born during the Arma McCarthy hearings. It's 404 00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:15.280 not like I remember. But there's a fascination with political intrigue. We can't 405 00:50:15.320 --> 00:50:20.960 help ourselves. Let's I'm just begging my colleagues, particularly the leaders of the 406 00:50:21.000 --> 00:50:24.119 other parties, not to let this descend into a witch hunt, imagining that 407 00:50:24.159 --> 00:50:30.840 there's a list of MP's in the report that someone should disclose. There is 408 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:32.920 no list of MPs. May or may not want to take your advice, 409 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:38.480 but would you advise mister and mister Blanche to do as you have done, 410 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:46.519 get the security clearance and read the unredactive before absolutely. I think a commitment 411 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:55.360 to not knowing something isn't wise, whether you're a member of parliament or parent 412 00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:04.119 driver, whatever whatever you're doing. I think it's always better to have as 413 00:51:04.280 --> 00:51:07.119 much knowledge as you possibly can get of the three hundred and sixty degrees of 414 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:16.119 your circumstances. More knowledge is better being determined not to know. They'll have 415 00:51:16.239 --> 00:51:21.519 to answer your questions as to why they're determined not to know. I am 416 00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:28.480 so grateful that David Johnson but for this, I would not have top secret 417 00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:38.800 security clearance former special rapperteur and ill fated admission for a fine man. But 418 00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:45.320 if David Johnson had not reported as he did that leaders of federal political parties 419 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:51.119 should have access to top secret security clearance, I wouldn't have had access to 420 00:51:51.239 --> 00:52:01.360 ask for it. To meet saying in my equivalent comes to the langue you 421 00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:17.840 don't exist, uh je dejah louis the report sacre a miss your sing rest 422 00:52:19.880 --> 00:52:30.039 uh a vexin suppose this young I there report may actual man in napa laxe 423 00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:38.320 j comprin last situation and your sing in one man j DeMont de le dois 424 00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:49.400 de le report je recu laid the the monro do not govern the la concai 425 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:59.840 preve a year soir, I thank her, don't I champ to sacre j 426 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:07.320 comesee de lepa. So in contrast to mister Singh who has said he's demanding 427 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.440 to read it, he has top secret security clearance, he's asked for access, 428 00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:19.840 I've take him at his word he's asked for access. I followed the 429 00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:24.000 procedure in a letter that I had received in May from the Privy Council Office 430 00:53:24.159 --> 00:53:34.000 explaining how someone in my position with top secret security access might be able to 431 00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:39.159 access the report. Understanding that, and the circumstances aren't aren't the easiest. 432 00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:45.599 You just you have to go to a secure room, leave all your electronic 433 00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:50.400 devices in a locked drawer. You don't take in a pen and paper, 434 00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:54.800 you don't take notes. So I was. I brought this because it helps 435 00:53:54.840 --> 00:54:00.239 me remember what was redacted. So when I start a page like like this, 436 00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:07.800 that will it will always have something like a few This paragraph was deleted 437 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:15.760 to remove injurious or privileged information. The paragraph described how Pakistan has engaged in 438 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:22.679 foreign interference in provincial or federal politics. That's just an example throughout the unredacted 439 00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:27.880 throughout the redacted document. You see sentences like that. Help me remember what 440 00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.880 I read when I couldn't be taking notes at all, no pen, no 441 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:37.119 paper, no electronic devices. But that's as it is. I don't know 442 00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:40.679 why, mister I'm sure mister Singh will get a chance to read this. 443 00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:45.280 But I mean I was. I mean, he said he'd throw anyone in 444 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:52.599 his caucus out if they had experienced foreign interference or been I think it's important. 445 00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:57.039 I mean, I will have to and would you. I don't. 446 00:54:57.320 --> 00:55:00.800 Look, the answer is because I have just said, I don't think there's 447 00:55:00.800 --> 00:55:05.880 anything currently sitting in the House of Commons was who's another acts foreign interference or 448 00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:09.960 shown favoritism to a foreign government over the interests of Canada. I think we're 449 00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:17.480 talking about smoke and mirrors and political posturing. In the report the MP's where 450 00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:22.159 there are names. You're suggesting there are names. There are also instances where 451 00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:27.519 there are no names but stories being told. Should these members of Parliament know 452 00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:34.599 that this information exists about them? Should? I would be surprised. There's 453 00:55:34.639 --> 00:55:39.199 a sec there's a reference throughout to what Cesius does in terms of risk management. 454 00:55:39.960 --> 00:55:45.239 One of the things Caesis does to minimize to know better, and that's 455 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:49.239 done pretty regularly, so i'd be speculating to say whether they already know or 456 00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:52.360 not. I don't know they know based on what you've read that they should 457 00:55:52.400 --> 00:56:04.159 be aware that I again, due to the specific circumstances of intelligence assets that 458 00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:08.360 can't be compromised, I can't answer that exactly as you phrased it. But 459 00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:14.199 there are so few additional names that beyond what is already in the public domain, 460 00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.199 and none of those things things would I put in our category of twitting 461 00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:25.119 operatives favoring a foreign government. I do worry about transnational corporations. I do 462 00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:30.360 think it's wrong to take money from a foreign corporation against the interests of Canada. 463 00:56:31.039 --> 00:56:35.320 And when a former MP did so, I took that complaint to the 464 00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:38.679 Ethics Commissioner and she said there was nothing wrong with that. So I think 465 00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:45.119 that's some place where we need to beef up are ethics rules and so that 466 00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:50.360 the Ethics Commissioner and Intelligence services could work more closely together to make sure that 467 00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:55.000 our oath of allegiance to Canada, which is expressed as because we're a constitutional 468 00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:59.280 monarchise, expressed as an oath too. The one I took was to her 469 00:56:59.320 --> 00:57:01.679 Majesty, Queen Is With the second, new MPs will take an oath to 470 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:07.440 King Charles. The third that should be understood as an oath to Canada, 471 00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:10.599 and that's a sacred oath. And when people don't understand that's an oath to 472 00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:15.280 be loyal to Canada and think they can fool around and play foot set with 473 00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:20.440 foreign operatives in hopes of favors down the road, I think they should be 474 00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:24.480 booted out of parliament. Now, by the way, there's only one way 475 00:57:25.360 --> 00:57:30.320 to remove a sitting member of Parliament under our current laws. I'm not going 476 00:57:30.400 --> 00:57:39.480 to give you, but here's how. Members of Parliament are the only authority 477 00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:46.320 with the right to remove a sitting member of Parliament. Any member of Parliament 478 00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:52.320 can move a motion to remove a member of Parliament, and on a vote 479 00:57:52.119 --> 00:58:00.559 of all members of parliament majority rules and a seated elected member of Parliament can 480 00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:07.840 be removed. It's only happened five times in the history of Canada. Two 481 00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:15.119 of those times applied to Louis Reelle. It's not a great instrument. It's 482 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:22.360 a blunt instrument. One could say it lacks due process, even natural justice. 483 00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.280 It's not clear at all, how a sitting member of Parliament would defend 484 00:58:25.320 --> 00:58:30.599 themselves. A motion comes forward and then there's a vote, but that is 485 00:58:30.679 --> 00:58:37.039 the only current tool to remove a sitting member of Parliament. You mentioned in 486 00:58:37.159 --> 00:58:40.480 the report there's references to different types of people. You said, no, 487 00:58:40.519 --> 00:58:45.960 I'm just imps different types of people. I'm wondering if you were referring to 488 00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:51.719 staffers who work for politicians or nomination race executives, and if you could also 489 00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:55.880 kind of characterize how many parties were looking at here, is that everyone was 490 00:58:55.960 --> 00:59:00.880 seating in the Commons? Is there an dykey person reference to walk person? 491 00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:07.960 The report is very clear that all parties have been targeted by foreign governments. 492 00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:10.960 I would say all parties except Greens, but was I thought about it. 493 00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.920 The fact that we're omitted doesn't mean that we might not be targets in the 494 00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:22.400 future, so I'm just leaving that aside. The report in the redacted public 495 00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:27.239 version says all parties. So we can take that to your first question when 496 00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:31.519 I said, not just members of parliament, elected people at different levels and 497 00:59:31.960 --> 00:59:36.880 orders of government, so we shouldn't take our eye off the ball there. 498 00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:39.519 I think there is much more work that needs to be done. In looking 499 00:59:39.559 --> 00:59:46.519 at this report, there are other examples of people currently in elected positions from 500 00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:54.119 Canada who are not members of parliament. Okay, and I just also wanted 501 00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:58.880 to know briefly what you think of beut a Psychoed's approach here. You know 502 00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:01.239 you talked about this as all tato. I'm just wondering, when people are 503 01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:05.960 losing faith and institutions, do you feel like they struck the right tone in 504 01:00:06.079 --> 01:00:13.599 the amount of information they've released and how they characterized it. This is very 505 01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:22.000 difficult stuff, right, They're trying to thread a needle, which includes protecting 506 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:28.360 top secret information, and it gets kind of like John McCarey stuff. Sometimes 507 01:00:28.400 --> 01:00:32.239 you think, okay, you've got an actual intelligence asset, do you smuggle 508 01:00:32.320 --> 01:00:35.519 into the safe house. We don't have a lot of John le carrey going 509 01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:37.559 on in Canada. I was saying to my husband because I couldn't tell him 510 01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:40.360 anything about before, saying, you know, it's somewhere between. Report makes 511 01:00:40.400 --> 01:00:44.079 me think of JOHNA. Carey. But it's not as bad as Joan mcaurrey 512 01:00:44.119 --> 01:00:46.800 novel. But it's a bit more worrying than Miss Marple. He said, 513 01:00:47.039 --> 01:00:50.159 I know what's going to know who Miss Marple was you can't say that. 514 01:00:50.320 --> 01:00:55.440 So anyway, Ah, there are people. In terms of what this committee 515 01:00:55.480 --> 01:01:01.320 has done, I think it's extraordinary. I think think they did more than 516 01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:06.519 a good job. They did a great job. Bearing in mind that what 517 01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:12.079 they could put out in the redacted version, just as I have self censored 518 01:01:12.119 --> 01:01:15.199 myself from what I know and what I can tell you, constantly in my 519 01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:23.239 head thinking I must not violate the trust placed in me that allows me to 520 01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:28.320 have top secret security clearance. So and I think about all those members. 521 01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:32.519 It's a rare thing for these parliamentarians, members of Parliament and senators to have 522 01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:42.480 to self censor as they write. And then the public redacted version obviously involved 523 01:01:42.679 --> 01:01:52.559 very close coordination with intelligence services of various kinds CESIS, PCO, the CSE, 524 01:01:53.199 --> 01:02:00.920 probably RCMP. There's a lot of delegate balancing that goes on here, 525 01:02:01.679 --> 01:02:07.440 and that's why I have nothing but respect and gratitude to my colleagues who serve 526 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:09.960 on this committee and to the Chair David McGuinty. It is not easy. 527 01:02:12.079 --> 01:02:15.679 What I do worry about is clear, I'm sure from our remarks here is 528 01:02:15.760 --> 01:02:21.440 that we both take it seriously as a threat foreign interference, as a threat 529 01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:30.239 within the world of domestic politics. But if we're going to address that threat, 530 01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:37.840 and I think we must, let's focus our efforts on tools, updated 531 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:44.599 laws, improved resources Elections Canada. For instance, one of the points made 532 01:02:44.599 --> 01:02:52.519 in this report is how few resources Elections Canada has to check out untoward on 533 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:58.440 untoward donations and money intended for that's all. The public report already of money 534 01:02:58.480 --> 01:03:04.280 that came from India and was directly to certain candidates in certain parties in certain 535 01:03:04.440 --> 01:03:08.239 areas, But then again they couldn't conclude the people ever actually got that money, 536 01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:15.079 to the extent that it's possible for my voice to make it through the 537 01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:19.039 noise here now, I mean here in this room, I mean in Canadian 538 01:03:19.079 --> 01:03:24.760 politics. Right now, let's focus on the constructive, positive steps that we 539 01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:37.639 need to take to modernize and reinforce the various bulwarks that protect democracy in Canada. 540 01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:43.559 Primary, in my mind, is the one that's hardest to reinforce and 541 01:03:43.679 --> 01:03:49.000 protect, and that's public trust in our institutions. So I want to focus 542 01:03:49.119 --> 01:03:57.199 on the steps we must take to ensure that more people seeking elected office have 543 01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:00.239 paused. If someone says I got a free trip for you, by the 544 01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:06.320 way, I think all sponsored trips from any government to any MP should be 545 01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:13.119 banned. It's not enough. I don't think to report to the Ethics Commissioner. 546 01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:15.800 I got a free trip. I don't see any reason that a member 547 01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:21.360 of Parliament should accept a free trip anywhere from a foreign government. Do you 548 01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:30.320 agree with redactions? As someone who's who's seen both, my opinion doesn't matter. 549 01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.320 I'm not a security expert. I might not have changed some of the 550 01:04:32.360 --> 01:04:35.320 words the way they were changed, or the nuances of how they were changed. 551 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:40.159 But again, everybody who did that work knows a lot more about it 552 01:04:40.239 --> 01:04:45.360 than I do. Should they have known that even referencing MPs was going to 553 01:04:45.440 --> 01:04:47.880 cause a problem without a plan to figure out how they were going to solve 554 01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:59.880 for that, like Nsikopp and also the Prime Minister who also would have seen 555 01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:02.480 the unredacted version of this report, knowing full well what was about to be 556 01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:16.559 made public. The extent to which they're buried in top secret documents and reports, 557 01:05:17.840 --> 01:05:29.199 the review of whether again looking at random sentences, and the ceaesus's assessment 558 01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:32.639 that candidates were unaware of the source of the funds, and again the different 559 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:38.639 kinds of cases that they're often they're very they're not that many of them, 560 01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:45.119 but specifically references case studies. They all have different nuances and they all have 561 01:05:45.199 --> 01:05:54.239 different contexts. So I'm, as you can tell, I'm loath to criticize 562 01:05:54.320 --> 01:06:03.599 colleagues who've done this much work. It's easy to be in hindsight more of 563 01:06:03.639 --> 01:06:11.199 attention on communications, but the pressures that this committee was under to produce a 564 01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:17.800 report an attempt to assist our institutions protect themselves. I mean, there's a 565 01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:23.920 lot that got through in the unredacted version, and rather yeah, there's a 566 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:28.039 lot that got through into the redacted version, the public version that gives us 567 01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:31.440 plenty to work on. And I mean, I'm concerned that PMO didn't immediately 568 01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:36.079 take the recommendations from the committee and implement them. As an example, there's 569 01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:44.719 a lot here to chew on. Whether the focus on a non existent list 570 01:06:44.800 --> 01:06:48.559 of MPs who've portrayed their country is lurking in a document that people won't reveal, 571 01:06:48.840 --> 01:06:54.519 and that's really unfortunate because I don't think anyone intended to create that impression. 572 01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:57.280 I can't see why they would want to create that impression. And there 573 01:06:57.400 --> 01:07:02.840 is no list of names of MPs who have consciously deliberately sought to sell out 574 01:07:02.920 --> 01:07:08.559 Canada to preference another government. Can you tell us about the page twenty six 575 01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:13.920 allegations. Did that MP, the foreign MP receive any benefit? Should think 576 01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:16.679 that you know prosecuted? Did they receive any benefit from that foreign government? 577 01:07:16.880 --> 01:07:24.280 Was it? It's enough that they wanted to deliberately. Let me just make 578 01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:31.519 sure I'm sticking with what is in the public version. A then member of 579 01:07:31.599 --> 01:07:40.320 Parliament maintaining a relationship with a foreign intelligence officer. The Member of Parliament sought 580 01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:46.320 to arrange a meeting in a foreign state where a senior intelligence official and also 581 01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:56.159 proactively provided the intelligence officer with information provided in confidence. And I'll just write, 582 01:07:56.239 --> 01:08:00.119 you know, read in what's intended here? Provided in confidence to the 583 01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:09.880 MP then MP, As I said, this is a singular example, unlike 584 01:08:10.039 --> 01:08:15.319 any other in the report. There is no other example of an elected person 585 01:08:15.479 --> 01:08:26.840 at any level of office deliberately seeking out a foreign government's intelligence officer and proactively 586 01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:32.960 providing information. Did they receive a benefit? That's not something I can speak 587 01:08:33.039 --> 01:08:39.239 to, but on the face of it, it's outrageous and that should be 588 01:08:39.399 --> 01:08:44.279 prosecuted. Is it acceptable to you that this is only coming out now if 589 01:08:44.319 --> 01:08:46.840 it's a former MP, well, I don't know when they mean, it's 590 01:08:47.640 --> 01:08:51.840 who knows when they knew? Right, it takes intelligence gathering is not my 591 01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:56.880 forte, so you might. But I think that now we know, we 592 01:08:57.039 --> 01:08:59.880 don't know the name, we don't know the person. We do know, 593 01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:03.840 But that's an outrageous example, and I think prosecution is appropriate on the limited 594 01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:09.800 knowledge of facts I have from reading the whole report. Sponsored travel, you 595 01:09:10.000 --> 01:09:14.000 just mentioned that that should be banned. Yes, this are you specifically talking 596 01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:16.960 to a reference in the report? Or why did you say what you said 597 01:09:17.000 --> 01:09:21.279 that about sponsored travel? It's always I've never accepted a sponsored trip from a 598 01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:25.800 foreign government. I see a lot of people taking sponsored trips, and I'm 599 01:09:25.840 --> 01:09:33.359 not at all this way. I don't want to judge or condemn my colleagues. 600 01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:41.279 Almost every MP I know and that I respect, has taken sponsored trips. 601 01:09:42.079 --> 01:09:45.840 We know which governments offer them most often, and I don't think they 602 01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:49.399 offer free trips to visit their country without expecting that they've at least influenced the 603 01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:59.119 mp A bit that their country is one to be concerned A friend A friendly 604 01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:02.439 country. Don't mention anywhere in these documents by the way some countries aren't reference 605 01:10:02.520 --> 01:10:12.199 that have In this released report, Russia's involvement has been downgraded and India's involvement 606 01:10:12.319 --> 01:10:16.399 upgraded. That's publicly accessible. In this report, we don't talk about the 607 01:10:16.479 --> 01:10:23.880 United States and how it's influenced canating politics over many many years. We don't 608 01:10:23.880 --> 01:10:30.800 talk about other governments trips to other countries that are offered for free. Is 609 01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:32.920 there really a free lunch in politics? Do we just think this is what 610 01:10:33.119 --> 01:10:38.119 politicians get as a perk, free trips to other countries. I just think 611 01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:42.880 it's bad practice. And while we're tightening up the rules and looking at foreign 612 01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:48.359 influence and foreign interference, I think they should not be allowed. What is 613 01:10:48.479 --> 01:10:55.399 most problematic about a Member of Parliament going on a trip that is sponsored by 614 01:10:55.680 --> 01:11:12.640 the Under susan It's now required, it wasn't always required under our Code of 615 01:11:12.680 --> 01:11:18.079 Ethics to report such trips. It's a publicly accessible registry and people will know 616 01:11:18.199 --> 01:11:23.600 if they're MP took a trip sponsored by the People's Republic of China or sponsored 617 01:11:23.640 --> 01:11:26.359 by India. To mention the governments that are already in the mix here, 618 01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:34.000 why do governments offer foreign governments offer free trips to Canadian and ps. We 619 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:42.079 now know for sure that foreign governments use many tactics and strategies and many approaches, 620 01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:48.399 including towards political staffers, towards people they see as maybe up and coming 621 01:11:48.560 --> 01:11:51.880 rising stars and politics that someday might be able to do them a favor. 622 01:11:51.920 --> 01:12:02.520 They're building relationships, and while going to an open house or celebrating a national 623 01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:09.600 holiday at an embassy here in Ottawa and having a lovely time at a party 624 01:12:10.119 --> 01:12:14.800 offered by the diplomatic service of whether it's the United States or Norway, is 625 01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:17.199 building a relationship. And I think a lot of those are healthy relationships. 626 01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:23.319 It's good to have a sense of the world, but a free trip is 627 01:12:25.199 --> 01:12:29.560 to me crossing a line. And I'm just speaking as myself. I don't 628 01:12:29.560 --> 01:12:33.039 take a free trip. I've gone on a sponsored trip and paid back the 629 01:12:33.119 --> 01:12:39.560 sponsor because I don't want to feel, at any level beholden to any foreign 630 01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:44.920 interests. Ever, I do think seeing the world is great, But foreign 631 01:12:44.960 --> 01:12:49.239 governments offering free trips, I think they do it to curry favor and support 632 01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:56.119 within Canada from a select group of MPs. And I think it's I think 633 01:12:56.159 --> 01:13:00.640 it's a practice. It's just me. It isn't a recommendation coming out of 634 01:13:00.680 --> 01:13:03.920 the National Security Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, but I think we should look at 635 01:13:03.960 --> 01:13:09.239 it. It's certainly I think it should be discouraged. For me, I 636 01:13:09.319 --> 01:13:12.800 think it should be banned. What was the trip that you took that you 637 01:13:12.840 --> 01:13:17.279 paid back? It was a trip in March of twenty eighteen, and I'm 638 01:13:17.319 --> 01:13:25.840 really proud of the work we did. The Canadian Palestinian Parliamentary Friendship Group managed 639 01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:32.199 to have MPs from five parties. Eighteen MPs traveled to the occupied territories. 640 01:13:33.079 --> 01:13:39.760 I learned a lot. The trip was sponsored by the Palestinian Authority, and 641 01:13:39.880 --> 01:13:44.239 I wasn't the only MP to pay back all of my costs, but I 642 01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:46.760 did. And I would not want to say who else went and who else 643 01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:49.600 didn't pay or whatever. I don't want to accuse any of my colleagues, 644 01:13:49.880 --> 01:13:54.720 but I just felt strongly about it. So what do you say a sponsored 645 01:13:54.760 --> 01:13:58.279 travel for any government? Are you including ISRAELI? You didn't, yesly mention 646 01:13:58.399 --> 01:14:02.079 that country. Yes, I didn't want to specifically I mentioned Israel because well 647 01:14:02.119 --> 01:14:08.880 there are But I'm looking at whose sponsors travel a lot. Yes, Israel 648 01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:12.439 sponsors a lot of trips for Canadians and I would certainly take one. I've 649 01:14:12.479 --> 01:14:14.920 been trying to organize it for some time, but I would pay them back. 650 01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:18.239 So I'm going to support this block motion. What do you think the 651 01:14:18.319 --> 01:14:20.840 next steps are? Well, I tell you what. I'm sorry, but 652 01:14:20.880 --> 01:14:24.520 I should back up. Why I'm not supporting the block motion is that I 653 01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:30.399 think it's throwing a hot potato in the wrong soup putt. Madame Justice Hoague 654 01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:39.960 has a lot on her plate and short timelines. Her inquiry is not ideally 655 01:14:40.039 --> 01:14:44.439 suited to what the Canadian public needs to know now, which is to investigate 656 01:14:45.720 --> 01:14:49.960 that, for instance, the former MP mentioned on page twenty six, somebody 657 01:14:50.039 --> 01:14:53.359 needs to do that. I don't think it's going to be matter Justice Hoague. 658 01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:57.680 So we could go through the process of throwing it to the Whogue Inquiry, 659 01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:03.319 knowing how overburdened they are to meet the deadlines they've got, and where 660 01:15:03.479 --> 01:15:10.159 would we be at the end of the day when she reports back. Probably 661 01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:16.239 where we are now, which is why I think it's better for parliamentarians to 662 01:15:16.319 --> 01:15:21.520 take responsibility for the hot potato, spend the time it takes, and for 663 01:15:21.680 --> 01:15:28.479 more of our colleagues, particularly leaders of other federal political parties who have access 664 01:15:28.520 --> 01:15:32.479 to the documents if they so choose to pursue it, and for us to 665 01:15:32.640 --> 01:15:36.600 try to work in a non partisan spirit. That's the worst part of the 666 01:15:36.680 --> 01:15:42.520 debate that's happened in the last oh since this report came out is, of 667 01:15:42.680 --> 01:15:48.159 course, everything that happens in Parliament is increasingly hyper partisan. It doesn't help 668 01:15:48.279 --> 01:15:55.479 us come to solutions. So I think that throwing it to Madame Justice Hoague. 669 01:15:55.520 --> 01:15:59.720 We now have the Liberals supporting the block motion, the Conservatives apport the 670 01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:01.239 block motion. Everyone's going to support the block motion. I don't know what 671 01:16:01.319 --> 01:16:04.319 Mike's going to do, but I'm going to vote against it. I think 672 01:16:04.399 --> 01:16:15.600 it's it's performative without being substantive. It moves the issue along. It says 673 01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:18.279 we're going to give this to Madam Justice Hoak. And I did see and 674 01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:23.800 I'm aware that the chair of the Committee, David McGuinty, said, well, 675 01:16:23.880 --> 01:16:27.800 that's progress. That moves it somewhere. But I think we should take 676 01:16:27.880 --> 01:16:31.760 responsibility for this ourselves as promontarians. And I think it would be really ideal 677 01:16:32.920 --> 01:16:40.399 if all party leaders could sit down together and say, Okay, what's the 678 01:16:40.479 --> 01:16:46.439 best thing to do now we have a collective duty and loyalty to Canada and 679 01:16:46.640 --> 01:16:53.680 the Canadian electorate to restore their confidence in what goes on in this place. 680 01:16:55.000 --> 01:17:00.239 And how do we do that. The more non partisan we can be, 681 01:17:00.600 --> 01:17:09.600 the better, And I do think that's possible. I every now and then 682 01:17:09.680 --> 01:17:15.199 I see it emerge when we speak as one because we care about an issue, 683 01:17:15.239 --> 01:17:18.760 we care about Canada. This is a very disturbing report, but I 684 01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:25.720 think if all the other party leaders had read the unredacted version as I have, 685 01:17:26.800 --> 01:17:35.640 I think we might be able to have a reasonable grown up conversation about 686 01:17:35.680 --> 01:17:42.600 where do our obligations lie, where it is our duty lie. What could 687 01:17:42.640 --> 01:17:46.079 we do together for Canadians to sort this out? Could we go back to 688 01:17:46.199 --> 01:17:51.279 ceaess, Could we go back to sources? Could we push harder to say 689 01:17:51.439 --> 01:17:56.159 and could we work with a committee to say? Can we get these names 690 01:17:56.199 --> 01:18:00.039 out so Canadians know as much as we know about individuals and they can breathe 691 01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:05.319 a cyber relief as Isa hit in recognizing lesson to take a big, long 692 01:18:05.359 --> 01:18:12.119 list or even a tiny list in the list and there's there's no one named 693 01:18:12.560 --> 01:18:20.279 as an MP who has deliberately sought to undermine Canada in favor of a different 694 01:18:20.359 --> 01:18:27.720 country. I can't say that more clearly, or I suppose I should be 695 01:18:27.800 --> 01:18:31.239 careful again about my notes. But it really is important to know that while 696 01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:38.279 a few named people may have been compromised by foreign influence, it falls far 697 01:18:38.439 --> 01:18:54.640 short of what could be considered disloyalty to Canada demonstrated disloyalty to Canada. Just 698 01:18:56.640 --> 01:19:00.039 in the interest in not having any unnecessary secrets, I will voting with Elizabeth 699 01:19:00.119 --> 01:19:05.359 on the block motion. Thanks. This is about no report. I've not 700 01:19:05.399 --> 01:19:12.840 read the report. I've read the redacted version, and I just strongly agree 701 01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:16.039 with it with Elizabeth. This is actually about restoring trust in our democracy. 702 01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:20.560 I want to take the actions that best move us towards that, and I 703 01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:26.800 trust a person who has read the unredacted version. And if anything, I 704 01:19:26.840 --> 01:19:30.760 wish we had more time before the vote so that more of this information could 705 01:19:30.800 --> 01:19:33.680 be sure with other colleagues that might encourage them to do the same. Yeah. 706 01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:38.279 Thanks Mike. No, that wasn't a joke or a bit of put 707 01:19:38.359 --> 01:19:44.119 up sketch. It is against the Green Party policies and bylaws for the leader 708 01:19:44.279 --> 01:19:47.239 to whip votes. So no matter how much I might want Mike to vote 709 01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:51.239 with me. I don't push it. We try to talk ahead of votes 710 01:19:51.439 --> 01:19:56.399 to know because we think sometimes it's cool to vote the same way. But 711 01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:59.439 it doesn't happen all the time, and we don't worry about it because his 712 01:19:59.600 --> 01:20:02.560 job is to represent the voters of Kitchener Center and my job is to represent 713 01:20:02.600 --> 01:20:06.159 the voters of Sanichgulf Violence, and it keeps the lines pretty clear. Do 714 01:20:06.239 --> 01:20:11.840 you think it's to be done about non parliamentarians who are elected officials that you 715 01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:15.520 mentioned in the report? I mean we have a federal motion for a federal 716 01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:23.199 inquiry, we have n psychop about parliamentarians like I'm surprised they're talking about provincial 717 01:20:23.399 --> 01:20:27.720 or municipal. I don't know what tools we even have. What do you 718 01:20:27.800 --> 01:20:31.680 think we should do about that? I'd like to talk to my other parliamentary 719 01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:35.319 colleagues about it. I'd like to talk to the committee about it. I 720 01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:46.840 am distressed by foreign interference at any part of Canadian democracy, in any aspects 721 01:20:46.880 --> 01:20:53.800 of our democracy, whether nomination raises, leadership contests, or actual elections to 722 01:20:54.000 --> 01:20:59.600 office at different levels. I do think, knowing what I know now from 723 01:20:59.640 --> 01:21:13.000 reading the report, I'll be continually pushing myself within the limits of this the 724 01:21:13.479 --> 01:21:16.960 Official Secrets Act, and the fact that I can't speak of things without permission. 725 01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:23.720 To figure that out, because I am very disturbed and I want to 726 01:21:23.800 --> 01:21:30.640 make sure the Canadians can have faith that anyone elected to office in this country 727 01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:36.199 at any one of the various parliaments or orders of government that are our democracy 728 01:21:36.319 --> 01:21:45.279 and our healthy body politic are one hundred percent loyal to Canada. Nice your 729 01:21:45.439 --> 01:21:48.079 concern about, you know, not breaking that out time. I'm just curious 730 01:21:48.159 --> 01:21:54.239 if you could give us any more information about like provinces. How many provinces 731 01:21:54.279 --> 01:21:58.079 are we talking in a handful? Is this WI describe? I would just 732 01:21:58.399 --> 01:22:02.319 say that that was something that I didn't clear with PCO before speaking to it, 733 01:22:02.399 --> 01:22:06.239 so I'm going to have to decline to answer, but perhaps with further 734 01:22:06.359 --> 01:22:10.920 efforts I can get answers to that, and i'd certainly take note of it 735 01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:15.960 and see if I can get an answer to you. But it's the report 736 01:22:15.720 --> 01:22:19.600 in its public version speaks of provinces, so I haven't let anything out of 737 01:22:19.640 --> 01:22:23.760 the bag that wasn't there before. It sounds like you're more concerned about what 738 01:22:23.840 --> 01:22:27.680 you read about provincial musable other levels of goent and what you read about what's 739 01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:34.920 happening here in Ottawa is that fair. I'm concerned about any influence and that 740 01:22:35.079 --> 01:22:40.720 it does include governments that may have compromised and I use the word compromised in 741 01:22:41.279 --> 01:22:49.159 my statement that there are some MPs who may have been compromised by foreign influence. 742 01:22:51.560 --> 01:22:59.640 And I am very concerned about what I've seen in other jurisdictions. And 743 01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:03.159 I wouldn't want to say one bothers me more than another. They're both unacceptable 744 01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:09.039 the media for influence of the media. That was a shocker to me too, 745 01:23:09.800 --> 01:23:15.159 and that is referred to in the public version, where foreign governments have 746 01:23:17.399 --> 01:23:24.399 given special access to documentary films and want a very favorable of you and it's 747 01:23:24.479 --> 01:23:29.680 not disclosed. It's the surreptitious nature of it that's the problem. And I 748 01:23:30.680 --> 01:23:38.199 I don't think I have such respect for journalists that the idea that somebody would 749 01:23:38.319 --> 01:23:44.560 be as a filmmaker or a documentary filmmaker or a journalist willing to do I 750 01:23:44.600 --> 01:23:47.680 mean, when you get your Saturday paper and there's extra pages, when this 751 01:23:47.800 --> 01:23:50.680 is this is how old I am. I'm still talking about newspapers. Their 752 01:23:50.720 --> 01:23:58.800 actual paper sponsored content is usually somewhere on the page when you start reading about 753 01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:00.560 a new face, crame, it's usual somewhere there so you can see, 754 01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:06.239 ah ah, this isn't news. And I was really shocked to the extent 755 01:24:06.399 --> 01:24:14.680 to which the National Security Intelligence Committee of parliamentarians have seen enough intelligence to think 756 01:24:14.720 --> 01:24:20.760 it's an issue that sponsored content is undisclosed. So that is another area to 757 01:24:20.840 --> 01:24:28.479 be investigated. When we're talking about sponsored travel and Israel, I'm a bit 758 01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:30.680 confused. Were you saying that Israel is named in this report? I did 759 01:24:30.760 --> 01:24:35.000 not say that. I specifically said it wasn't. And in terms of sponsored 760 01:24:35.039 --> 01:24:38.760 content, is it like across all media or I'm just wondering if this is 761 01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:42.760 specifically in like ethnic media, is it like Chinese language media? Is it 762 01:24:43.720 --> 01:24:47.319 that is not specified at any level in either the redacted or unredacted versions. 763 01:24:50.079 --> 01:24:53.520 It's a question of where does I mean? I think we have to if 764 01:24:53.560 --> 01:24:59.279 we refocus a bit, which I think will help, focusing on what tools 765 01:24:59.520 --> 01:25:02.399 and tax dicks do foreign government's use, what's at their disposal, what are 766 01:25:02.399 --> 01:25:14.439 they looking for infiltrating, co opting community organizations, infiltrating, co opting journalists, 767 01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:19.720 infiltrating, co opting elected people or people seeking to maybe be elected or 768 01:25:19.760 --> 01:25:24.319 nominated or become a party leader. So it's a question not so much of 769 01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:29.600 who don't we trust in Canada. I think that's the wrong lens if we 770 01:25:29.680 --> 01:25:34.840 can shift it to we need to protect our democracy by better understanding what hostile 771 01:25:34.920 --> 01:25:41.640 foreign governments see as their targets. And it's basically a lot more aspects of 772 01:25:41.720 --> 01:25:46.159 our society than I would have imagined, including journalists. Sure, ms bye, 773 01:25:46.199 --> 01:25:49.960 you've been on Proman Hill a long time. Not really, not nearly 774 01:25:50.000 --> 01:26:00.399 long enough, glad, I'm only seventy. Sorry, lists sing as a 775 01:26:00.439 --> 01:26:05.359 natiation can recarding here today? Are you trying to splash cold water on the 776 01:26:05.439 --> 01:26:13.319 call for names? Like? What are you trying to achieve here? I've 777 01:26:13.399 --> 01:26:17.279 been hearing from so many of my own constituents who are good and freaked out. 778 01:26:18.640 --> 01:26:23.520 I would describe myself before reading the report as good and freaked out. 779 01:26:24.600 --> 01:26:30.279 My main goal and I don't want to sound too lofty, but I am 780 01:26:30.600 --> 01:26:45.199 a passionate lover of democracy. I am terrified that the gong show that is 781 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:49.840 Parliament will result in fewer Canadians voting when they have the chance. I am 782 01:26:50.000 --> 01:26:57.479 worried for the health of our country if people decide politics is so disgusting in 783 01:26:57.640 --> 01:27:01.319 kind of a consumer response, I don't like that store, I'm not going 784 01:27:01.399 --> 01:27:09.039 to go in there and buy anything, because that store is practicing voter democracy 785 01:27:09.199 --> 01:27:16.479 isn't shopping. Democracy is a right of Canadians and voting is a duty. 786 01:27:16.800 --> 01:27:20.600 We don't talk about duty very much anymore. It's not a hobby, it's 787 01:27:20.640 --> 01:27:28.039 a duty. If Canadians end up feeling so unsure of the health of their 788 01:27:28.079 --> 01:27:38.520 democracy that they're either by being disgusted or hostile too. If we fall to 789 01:27:38.600 --> 01:27:43.760 such a level of disrespect that people don't vote, then democracy is at risk. 790 01:27:44.359 --> 01:27:45.720 And if you look around the world, and I do look around the 791 01:27:45.760 --> 01:27:51.920 world, right wing populism slash fascism is on the rise. Protecting democracy is 792 01:27:53.000 --> 01:27:58.119 my main motivation. I think to protect to protect the global climate, we 793 01:27:58.199 --> 01:28:01.359 need healthy democracy. You'll notice I'm probably the only person so far that I've 794 01:28:01.399 --> 01:28:08.760 noticed who's mentioned the role of foreign corporations. I do think we need to 795 01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:13.359 make sure that people aren't susceptible to too much money in politics. I really 796 01:28:13.399 --> 01:28:15.560 think we should bring back the per vote subsidy, just to throw that out 797 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:20.119 there. There are tools things we used to do that could address the threats 798 01:28:20.119 --> 01:28:26.199 that have been identified in the public version of this report. My main motivation 799 01:28:26.359 --> 01:28:30.680 though today is let's keep our eye on the ball. The ball is what 800 01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:35.039 are foreign governments seeking to do in Canada? Not is there a secret list 801 01:28:35.079 --> 01:28:41.319 of MPs somewhere that someone should release, because there isn't one. So do 802 01:28:41.399 --> 01:28:45.159 you think Bill C seventy is at to addressing it in new r issues that 803 01:28:45.239 --> 01:28:50.479 you raised? I think I wish, and I said this empowerment yesterday on 804 01:28:50.479 --> 01:28:55.399 the Floorthhouse. I wish that in getting C seventy passed, we had not 805 01:28:55.520 --> 01:29:01.960 been so short of time, and I was so encouraged to see collaboration between 806 01:29:02.039 --> 01:29:09.319 the Conservatives and the ENDP in coming up with a unanimous consent motion with block 807 01:29:09.439 --> 01:29:15.920 and Liberals all supporting it. I wish we had not adopted an approach that 808 01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:18.560 went so fast that we're not hearing the voices of people who were saying, 809 01:29:18.600 --> 01:29:23.600 wait a minute. This could have a chilling effect, This could hurt civil 810 01:29:23.640 --> 01:29:30.640 liberties. C seventy and the way we've structured this bill could be improved with 811 01:29:30.760 --> 01:29:33.279 amendments. We don't have that. It's going to be gone. It's gone 812 01:29:33.279 --> 01:29:38.520 through clause by clause, my opportunity to provide amendments was limited. I have 813 01:29:38.560 --> 01:29:42.760 a very time limited opportunity. I get a notice from committees and Mike does, 814 01:29:42.960 --> 01:29:45.680 and we have less than twenty four hours to produce amendments, and that 815 01:29:45.880 --> 01:29:49.359 generally happens before the witnesses have been finished. That's because of our status as 816 01:29:49.399 --> 01:29:53.640 a party with less than twelve members, particularly, and that particular bill went 817 01:29:53.760 --> 01:29:58.359 very very fast. Just saying I think C seventy is an improvement. We 818 01:29:58.399 --> 01:30:02.159 should have had a foreign influence read a long time ago, and taking a 819 01:30:02.239 --> 01:30:09.880 deep breath, I wish we'd had it in a more timely fashion so that 820 01:30:10.159 --> 01:30:16.640 we could have had a normal process in this place, with study and hearing 821 01:30:16.720 --> 01:30:24.960 witnesses and entertaining amendments. I wish we had not rushed through that process so 822 01:30:25.119 --> 01:30:29.079 quickly. But on balance, what I'd rather have C seventy as is with 823 01:30:29.199 --> 01:30:32.840 that amendment than no C seventy at all. I'd rather have C seventy as 824 01:30:32.920 --> 01:30:36.560 it is, But I regret very much that we didn't have time to study 825 01:30:36.640 --> 01:30:42.199 it and improve it. Yeah. Sure, just a brief example on that. 826 01:30:43.039 --> 01:30:46.960 If the decision was made differently not to carve out the capital gains tax 827 01:30:47.079 --> 01:30:51.920 as separate legislation for political gain. There would have been more House time to 828 01:30:53.039 --> 01:30:57.640 spend more time improving C seventy. I think that's what Elizabeth is getting at, 829 01:30:57.880 --> 01:31:00.920 that it's good legislation. But we heard just in the last few days 830 01:31:01.800 --> 01:31:06.800 from groups like NCCM about improvements they'd like to see, and as a result 831 01:31:06.880 --> 01:31:12.640 of that UC motion, it's moved so quickly that it's made it more difficult 832 01:31:13.119 --> 01:31:16.279 for parliamentarians to improve that legislation, despite the fact that there could have been 833 01:31:16.319 --> 01:31:23.000 more house times, more difficult, impossible. I never hackled in the House 834 01:31:23.039 --> 01:31:28.319 and now I'm hackling like it was impossible to improve C seventy because the timeline, 835 01:31:28.640 --> 01:31:31.560 and honestly, obviously it was unanimous consent. I could have said no 836 01:31:31.640 --> 01:31:38.640 one stopped it. And I do apologize to the many groups that are raising 837 01:31:38.840 --> 01:31:45.199 solid good points on civil liberties grounds that C seventy probably should have, would 838 01:31:45.239 --> 01:31:50.760 have not should have. C seventy should have gone to committee force after second 839 01:31:50.800 --> 01:31:58.520 reading for proper study and entertaining of amendments, as opposed to the truncated process 840 01:31:58.640 --> 01:32:02.359 we have because we're running out of time, because it's almost the end of 841 01:32:02.520 --> 01:32:10.600 the session and because we're pushing things through fast. But as Mike says, 842 01:32:10.640 --> 01:32:15.600 if we weren't taking special time for essentially the show trial of the capital gains 843 01:32:15.640 --> 01:32:18.560 tax vote, we'd have more time for C seventy. When I asked you 844 01:32:18.760 --> 01:32:24.960 about your motivation, you described the Gong Show, your quote Gong Show, 845 01:32:25.079 --> 01:32:28.960 Yes on Parliament herld from take it you're referring to as it pretas the conversation 846 01:32:29.039 --> 01:32:32.000 on foreign interference? Why? No, No, sorry, I just want 847 01:32:32.079 --> 01:32:35.760 general to general. I wasn't specifying. No, no, no, I'm 848 01:32:35.760 --> 01:32:44.119 glad you clarified. It's just I yes, Okay. The question is as 849 01:32:44.159 --> 01:32:49.039 it relates to foreign interference, how would you describe the nature of the conversation? 850 01:32:49.640 --> 01:32:54.800 Does that amount to a quote Gong Show? No? And thank you 851 01:32:54.920 --> 01:32:57.920 for asking the questions. Probably the last question, given that you probably all 852 01:32:57.960 --> 01:33:01.239 want to get cracking. I think when I speak of the Gong Show, 853 01:33:01.800 --> 01:33:10.760 I particularly mean the bad high school theater experience of debates in Parliament, with 854 01:33:10.840 --> 01:33:18.079 people giving written speeches, the hoping to get a zinger line click bait clips 855 01:33:18.159 --> 01:33:24.840 for YouTube instead of respectful parliamentary debate, which is why we are here. 856 01:33:27.319 --> 01:33:30.520 I think it's pretty clear what we've seen and everyone starts calling it silly season 857 01:33:30.600 --> 01:33:35.000 earlier and earlier every year. But since I was first elected in twenty eleven 858 01:33:36.359 --> 01:33:43.960 and it wasn't worth then, things have become more disrespectful. The tone has 859 01:33:44.079 --> 01:33:51.399 become less civil, and I don't want to see our democracy slide into a 860 01:33:51.520 --> 01:33:56.960 Trumpian era. And that does not refer to the policies or politics of any 861 01:33:57.000 --> 01:34:03.079 particular party, to be very clear, but to what I think Donald Trump 862 01:34:03.159 --> 01:34:12.159 has done, which was open a box on conduct language that would have been 863 01:34:12.880 --> 01:34:20.319 screamingly unacceptable in polite society even twenty years ago, fifteen years ago. And 864 01:34:20.520 --> 01:34:25.880 Canadians, as I've said probably a zillion times, the thing I love about 865 01:34:25.960 --> 01:34:29.479 being Canadian more than anything, well more than anything, which more than anything, 866 01:34:29.840 --> 01:34:33.760 one of the things I love about being Canadian is our capacity to disagree 867 01:34:34.279 --> 01:34:42.159 without being disagreeable. And we've suffered a real psychic wound through pandemic coming out 868 01:34:42.199 --> 01:34:47.159 the other side. For whatever reason, we're having a harder time disagreeing without 869 01:34:47.199 --> 01:34:51.640 being disagreeable. And I think again, for healthy democracy, for higher voter 870 01:34:51.800 --> 01:34:57.960 turnout, for citizen engagement, for all of the reasons that we need to 871 01:34:58.000 --> 01:35:03.960 protect Canadian democracy, we need to get back to respectful discourse and if if 872 01:35:04.000 --> 01:35:16.279 at all possible, to kindness. Yes, sir yet see I love us. 873 01:35:16.840 --> 01:35:25.039 Thank you very much. Whippics gives you the power of AI to build 874 01:35:25.079 --> 01:36:02.840 the website you need with full business functionality and a design tailored The show has 875 01:36:02.960 --> 01:36:11.760 been produced by Depictions Media. Please contact us at depictions dot media for more information.