WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:08.160 Hey there, this is Jeff Fritz, the Purple Blazer guy from Microsoft, 2 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:12.880 letting you in on a little secret about my friend Carl Franklin. You know, 3 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:17.000 the guy who started dot net Rocks, the first podcast about dot net 4 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:21.399 way back in two thousand and two. The guy who's been teaching Blazer on 5 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:26.839 YouTube since twenty twenty. Yeah, that Carl Franklin. Well, Carl has 6 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:32.079 joined up with Codina Castle to teach a week long hands on Blazer class this 7 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:38.079 September. And get this, it's at a castle slash villa in Tuscany. 8 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:43.399 It's sort of a luxury vacation with Blazer learning built in. He's calling it 9 00:00:43.479 --> 00:00:48.679 the Blazer master Class. You'll learn Blazer from the ground up, finishing the 10 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:54.000 week with the ability to build and deploy Blazer applications. Now, Carl did 11 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:57.799 this class last year and it was a huge success. You can watch the 12 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.200 awesome video from twenty twenty three on the website, which I'll share in just 13 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:06.879 a few seconds. Since the training happens for only four hours in the morning 14 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:10.560 over six days, you can bring your significant other with you, and you 15 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:15.640 should. This part of Italy is absolutely beautiful. There's so much to see 16 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:21.359 and do and Larry and Marco from Code and a Castle are organizing daily activities 17 00:01:21.400 --> 00:01:26.439 both at the castle and in the area. The castle is in the Maremma, 18 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.599 a less tourist dy region of Tuscany, offering both classic Tuscan hill country 19 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:37.000 as well as easy access to the Etruscan Riviera, with sublime local food, 20 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:42.200 wine and olive oil around every corner. Breakfast is included every day. There 21 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:47.519 will be two communal dinners at the castle, bookending the experience, and most 22 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:52.840 other meals in all activities are included and did I mention you'll learn Blazer in 23 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.159 person from Carl Franklin. Space is limited and for good reason. This is 24 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:06.200 a quality training experience in beautiful setting. Go to Codeinnecastle dot com slash Blazer 25 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:13.800 twenty twenty four that's b l a zo R two zero two four to take 26 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:19.639 advantage of this amazing opportunity to join Carl in Tuscany for an unforgettable week of 27 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:37.199 ladocha vita while advancing your programming skills in this important new technology. Hey Carl 28 00:02:37.240 --> 00:02:40.280 and Richard here with your twenty twenty four and DC schedule. We'll be at 29 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:45.879 as many NDC conferences as possible. This year, and you should consider attending 30 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:51.159 no matter what. The Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. 31 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:57.879 Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. NDC Porto is happening October fourteenth through the 32 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:02.719 eighteenth. The early discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot com. 33 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:19.560 We'll see you there, we hope. Hello, and welcome back to dot 34 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.319 NetRocks. I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Campbell. We're here again for the 35 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:30.319 nineteen hundred and sixth time. There you go. Well, let's be clear, 36 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:31.840 I'm the new guy. I didn't become co host. I'll show one 37 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.439 hundred okay, eighteen hundred and six shows. You'd had two co hosts before 38 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:38.960 that. I remember thinking to myself, it's fifty shows. What's the big 39 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:43.400 deal. It's gonna be easy. Had fifty shows. What's the matter with 40 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:46.199 us anyway, don't it? I just got back from twenty six days on 41 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.080 the road, man like wow, which not actually a good idea. That 42 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:55.919 was too long? Wow, so long time six stops total three comm Yeah, 43 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:00.840 you know you can't complain. Get a chance to the folks who listen 44 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:02.599 to the show and talk to all our friends and there's you know, the 45 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.000 other speakers and things. And I got to visit with our friend Remy. 46 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:12.159 I was that's right, he's got a little baby, got a little seven 47 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:15.879 month old. That's so cool. Yeah. So and I did some fishing 48 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:18.519 with our friend Huckabee. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah. Was that 49 00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:23.959 in Montana? It was in Montana. That was on the Dolan Flats west 50 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.759 of Missoula. It was Brad Pitt with you guys. No, no, 51 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:32.160 Robert Redford, absolutely, but no Brad Pitt. Uh. The guys who 52 00:04:32.199 --> 00:04:35.639 run that place are fantastic. And it is you know, I find fly 53 00:04:35.720 --> 00:04:40.279 fishing vaguely daft, because you know, we're throwing everything back, like we're 54 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:42.480 catching a lot of fish, but we're putting them all back. It's an 55 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:45.759 excuse to stand in the water and drink beer. Yeah, let's be clear. 56 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:48.959 Actually it is drinking and partying with your friends, interrupted occasionally by floating 57 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:55.560 in a boat. We had We had a great time. And yeah, 58 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.399 my cast is getting better according to the outfitter. So oh that sounds great. 59 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:01.360 There you go. Well, I don't really have much to say after 60 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:04.680 that, so let's just roll the music for better not a framework. All 61 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:17.360 right, what do you got so at build? I did this video with 62 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:24.160 Don Weeba from dev Express, and it's called May the Forms Be with You? 63 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:27.399 I love it. You're such a geek. I didn't name it. 64 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.800 I can't take credit for that. I think that was Don. But basically, 65 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:36.279 it's a wind forms hybrid app that uses both wind Forms and Blazer at 66 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:42.160 the same time. You're seeing wind forms, not web forms. Wind forms. 67 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:46.240 You're crazy. I know. This is really cool. It's a Windows 68 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.160 form app. It has like a Windows Forms Dev Express grid, and then 69 00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:55.240 it has a some other stuff that's built with Blazer and they interact with each 70 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:59.360 other and it's very cool. Okay, So I thought I would post that 71 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.199 in This is nineteen oh six. You can go to nineteen oh six dot 72 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.480 pwop dot me and that'll take you there, or you could just google bing 73 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:13.360 May the Forums Be with You Microsoft Build. Yeah, awesome, dude. 74 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.240 So that's what I got. Richard, who's talking to us? Grab a 75 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:21.199 comment off of show seventeen fifty five when we did with one Joseph Finnie talking 76 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:24.800 about building text Grab. I don't know, have you ever heard of it. 77 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:27.600 It's in the power toys and it turns out you can make a power 78 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:31.959 toy. They'll make an MVP. Yeah, and Talon Kincaid had his comments 79 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.759 a few months ago now we said text grab revolutionized online classes for me, 80 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:41.439 professor's notes and the ability to make notes through OCR. I appreciate this developer's 81 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:46.959 problem solved over at Christmas break. Thanks for Finn. That's talent, kN 82 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.480 Kate, very cool. I got nothing more to say than that. It's 83 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:53.720 like you know, and I hope Joe feels the same way. It's like 84 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:58.040 you make something, people use it and they are grateful. This is the 85 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.120 best part of our job. True, absolutely, yeah, it really is, 86 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.519 especially with small, little purpose built utilities like that. Yeah. Yeah, 87 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:05.920 so talent, thank you so much for your comment, and a copy 88 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.040 music codey is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy 89 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:11.600 of music Coobe. I read a comment on the website at dot net rocks 90 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:14.199 dot com on the facebooks. You publish every show there, and if you 91 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:15.959 comment there and not reading on the show, we'll send you copy music COBA 92 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:19.079 and you can follow us on x Twitter, which is what I'm calling it 93 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.879 now Twitter x Nope, ex Twitter. It was Twitter? Now is Twitter? 94 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:28.240 Now? Is on Twitter? An ex Twitter? You can follow us 95 00:07:28.279 --> 00:07:30.879 there at Carl Franklin and at Rich Campbell. However, the cool kids are 96 00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:35.360 hanging out on Macedon. I'm at Carl Franklin at techcub dot Social, and 97 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:40.560 I'm Rich Campbell at macedon Social. Send us a tuote you never know? 98 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.759 How about that for a tagline? Send us a tute you never know? 99 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:49.040 It's like that. All you need is a dollar and a dream. All 100 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:54.240 right, Well, let's introduce formally Joe Finney. By day, he's a 101 00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:01.600 mobile product owner and MVP and builds productivity apps for Win Windows at night and 102 00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:07.519 when he's not programming, he's birding, running and enjoying tasty coffee and beer 103 00:08:07.920 --> 00:08:11.720 in Milwaukee. Hey Joe, Hey, how's it going going to have you 104 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:16.199 back? Man? Ye, it's good to be back and talk about really 105 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:22.639 surprising but exciting stuff. You pinged me on this show and I just said, 106 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:24.279 yes, where do you want to go? Friend? What are you 107 00:08:24.360 --> 00:08:28.000 talking about? So? The big build news, I think for a lot 108 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:35.480 of Windows developers was that WPF is back. Did it ever really go away? 109 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:43.559 WPF is officially back? How's that Yeah, it's I think this is 110 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:48.519 one of those announcements to your point, Richard, that everyone was happy to 111 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:54.879 see more of an acknowledgment because it never went away. No, but this 112 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:58.279 it felt like the spend was was just like housekeeping. They were keeping a 113 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:05.440 patch for secure but you word seeing features and the another hot topic of this 114 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.039 show is frequently open source and you know, how do you manage that? 115 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.960 How do you support it? And WPF was open sourced years ago, and 116 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:16.759 so that was I mean, I don't know when that actually happened, but 117 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.200 you know it's been open source for several years. But if you look at 118 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:26.000 the contributions and like how it's actually being managed, it's not like a traditional 119 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:31.440 open source you know, repository. You know, before we go any further 120 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.200 with WPF, I got to acknowledge the couple of people who left comments on 121 00:09:35.240 --> 00:09:41.559 the website about our talk with Beth Massey and you know, Carl, here's 122 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.559 Carl dissing zamble again, right, because you know, I'm kind of cranky 123 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:50.559 sometimes but not really, I'm The thing is is that I did a lot 124 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.840 of zamal and then I you know, then the web sort of took over 125 00:09:54.879 --> 00:09:58.720 my life, and I learned Blazer, and I just love the binding model 126 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:05.919 and all that stuff, and and uh, when I could do WPF applications, 127 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.200 I chose to do them in Blazer with Blazer Hybrid. And like I 128 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.200 was talking in the in the beginning, the web forms in Blazer is also 129 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:18.519 a nice combination. So yeah, and and you know, it's my opinion. 130 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:22.720 I'm kind of entitled to my opinion. Everybody's got an opinion. I 131 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:28.159 don't. But you know, this isn't a training session on Zamal. You 132 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.440 know, it's this isn't the dot Ne Rocks is just we just talk, 133 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:35.639 you know. So there's plenty of people who love Zamal. And Billy Hollis 134 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.639 comes to mind. He and I are really good friends, and he even 135 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.639 likes Blazer too. So you know, it's not that I'm down on Zamal. 136 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:48.919 It's just that I personally am doing more Blazer than Zamal these days. 137 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:52.360 Makes you happy, Blazer makes me happy. But but I just wanted to 138 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.159 get that out of the way. But I'm really curious to find out because 139 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:01.440 I didn't read about this, and I didn't see anything about it to build 140 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.679 because I wasn't really watching but so tell us what's new in WPF that's so 141 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.399 exciting. Well, I really do think, as Richard said, the attention 142 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.879 is hopefully changing. I think that's kind of the major element that spent a 143 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.080 big problem for a lot of people for a long time, which was you 144 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:22.000 have these major projects, you have these huge apps that people are building, 145 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.039 and Microsoft was telling everyone to you know, first they were saying, oh, 146 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:35.600 stop building that and build wuwp And obviously that was a bit too far 147 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:37.639 for most people to do, and it didn't work, and it cut out 148 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.679 a bunch of stuff, and it was a whole new flavor of Examle and 149 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.200 the whole model was totally different, you know, focus on mobile devices, 150 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:50.759 and so people did not jump. People stayed in WPF. And then they 151 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:54.720 said, okay, when you I you know, Reunion, when UI and 152 00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:58.759 now the win FSDK, that's the new thing. And for a couple of 153 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.960 years they were like, this is our platform, this is the only thing 154 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:07.879 we're supporting. Again, they open source WPF and wind forms. Years ago 155 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.759 was when they open source WPF. Okay, so it's been open source for 156 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.320 a while, but I would say mainly it's there to track issues. There 157 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:22.240 have been some major community contributions, but major in the uh, you know, 158 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:24.879 it's amazing that they did it, and they were kind of big, 159 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.960 but they were not fixing some of the major kind of pain points that you 160 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.840 would have if you were going to make a new WPF app today, which 161 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:39.000 as the what is it a spaceship our battleship gray When you make a new 162 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:43.919 WPF app today, it looks like a WPF app, And so I would 163 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:46.840 say that was the number one, you know challenge, one of the major 164 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:52.279 challenges that a lot of people had with the platform, which is it does 165 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.600 a lot of stuff that it's really the only or the best way to do 166 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:00.279 it. It's the main tool that most people are using to make the really 167 00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:05.279 complicated Windows apps. Microsoft's not investing in it, they're not focusing on it, 168 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.559 and it's a lot of work to try to get it to look like 169 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:13.720 it fits in Windows and Windows eleven. And so that was actually recently they 170 00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:20.639 announced that the theming is all changing, so you can add a new line 171 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:28.399 to your application zamo file to use a new fluent design resource and boom you 172 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.000 have all the rounded corners, all the fluenty things. And so your old 173 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:37.679 school WPF app now looks like it belongs in a part of Windows, which 174 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.919 was always a big challenge of how do you make this old framework look and 175 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:46.559 behave new and so there were a lot of independent, kind of open source 176 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.960 frameworks to do that work, but they were very open source. They were 177 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.240 maintained by community members and it's a lot of work. There are a lot 178 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:58.679 of controls. And so now Microsoft has acknowledged, okay, that we have 179 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:05.080 two major play platforms if you're going to build Windows apps, WPF and win 180 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:09.440 FSDK. So they've kind of acknowledged the reality that those are the two platforms, 181 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:13.200 but they didn't say when UI. Well, when UI is the UI 182 00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:18.159 layer of win fsdk, right, so I would say it's under that that 183 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:24.080 tent. So win FSDK is definitely it's the APIs the platform, and then 184 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.039 when UI is the UI for it? Are we talking about it? More? 185 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.519 Essential? Gives them here, Joe, because when U I and the 186 00:14:30.519 --> 00:14:37.039 win FSDK comes from the Windows team and WPF comes from dev dip. Yeah, 187 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.519 that's a great point. I mean, this is a Conway's law situation. 188 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:46.720 Actually, you have two different teams that are writing UIs, that are 189 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:52.399 creating a user interface to a platform. You're going to get two. Yeah. 190 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.159 No, I mean it's definitely a challenge, and I think it's it's 191 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:58.039 when you look at the priorities of the Windows team, which is like moving 192 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:03.320 forward and doing more new modern things with devices and everything they're doing with ARM 193 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.080 and performance there. If you want to do those kinds of cool things, 194 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:13.480 that's all one FSDK. So there were a lot of announcements at around one 195 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:18.240 FSDK at build about what you can do and now you can do ahead of 196 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.879 time compile. Now you can do a bunch of like really cool stuff, 197 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.919 and there's a lot of new controls, and it's way more modern as far 198 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.679 as like if you want to touch the device and pinch and zoom those things, 199 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.399 one STDK. That's out of the box. That's really easy. You 200 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.519 don't have to worry about it. Like when UI controls are amazing, they 201 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:41.279 feel modern, they look modern. WPF is classic. It's the classic flavor. 202 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.960 So if you're doing a lot of keyboard and mouse, it's right there 203 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.600 with you and that's kind of what it's tailored to and that's what it's been 204 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:52.440 tailored to, and that's what a lot of these huge apps that you know, 205 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:56.559 big companies all over the place. That really, I mean sure there 206 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:03.279 are elements of well, isn't Visual Studio WPF unusual exception? Right? That 207 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:10.639 was a very specific attent by Jason Xander in twenty ten to put WPF to 208 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:15.000 work inside of Microsoft application for the first time ever. And it costs studio 209 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.240 if anybody remembers Studio twenty ten, like it was delayed by a month for 210 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.480 performance reasons. On the other hand, the WPF got wildly better because they 211 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:30.360 needed to. They pounded on it for performance. They pounded on the calm 212 00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:33.919 interrop like there was all those problems. And again I'm going back fourteen years 213 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:40.559 because I get to do that, but I really feared for WPF back in 214 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:42.399 those days. It had been four years as they launched it in two thousand 215 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:47.480 and six as a fallout of Vista, and it really it should have been 216 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:52.840 implemented an office immediately. But because that's your best val validation. You know, 217 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.120 if you're a microsmart Microsoft watcher, you look at what Microsoft is using 218 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:00.440 because that's the products that are going to persist. For crying out, the 219 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.359 VB six run time is still shipped in Windows eleven. I'll tell you there's 220 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:11.519 a WPF app a commercial app that I use a lot for streaming that's written 221 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:18.000 in WPF. Yeah, and it's it's called v mix. Nice. V 222 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:26.319 mix is written and get this vb net in WPF and it's all I l 223 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.599 on the hood. Baby, it's a app, like it really is awesome. 224 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.279 It's great. Yeah, I think that's kind of I mean, if 225 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.680 we go all the way back to the beginning of this discussion about a utility 226 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.799 that does a job, I think that's kind of at the end of the 227 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:44.240 day, that's what we're doing, like software, not for software's sake. 228 00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:48.119 We're here to build tools. And WPF has been around for a long time, 229 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.039 which means when you run into a problem a WPF and you google it, 230 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.519 there's an answer, there's an answer, and it is very useful. 231 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.880 Let's get to twenty twenty four here we're going to ask chat GPT. Really 232 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:06.279 that's man, that's funny that you say that you want to go very modern. 233 00:18:06.440 --> 00:18:14.359 So one, it's really funny whenever GitHub co pilot suggests APIs that you 234 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.920 want to call and you see it in a little preview and the great text 235 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:19.319 and you're like, oh, that's exactly what I want. You hit tab 236 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.200 and then the rech squigglies come and they say, that's not a real ABI, 237 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.640 that's what you want, what you want in your dream. Yeah, 238 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:33.160 so then you search it in GitHub news say is this actually real? Why 239 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.920 did this get recommended? And you're like, oh no, it's something that 240 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:41.400 somebody eln't made to make you happy. I went around with I'm going around 241 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.880 with chat GPT recently trying to solve a problem, and it became clear after 242 00:18:45.960 --> 00:18:51.920 about I don't know, twenty or thirty minutes that it really didn't have the 243 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.119 necessary means to solve the problem, and just a quick search on stack overflow 244 00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:02.160 I found the answer immediately. Yeah, you know, I am surprised, 245 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:06.400 to go with, I'm surprised that the data is not better because there's a 246 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:11.720 lot of WPF questions and answers on stock overflow and they're really high quality and 247 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:15.920 they're really good, and they ask basic questions that you know you're going to 248 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:18.319 run into if you're developing an app, and if you ask the same thing 249 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:23.039 in you know, when FSDK, you're lucky if you get an answer. 250 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:27.119 I mean, for example, I make an app that basically generates icon files 251 00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:33.079 because I needed to make icon files for my other apps, and I couldn't 252 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.960 find an easy way to do it. And so what I wanted I want 253 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.240 to be able to zoom in and see the pixel perfect preview of that with 254 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.359 no anti leasing, no blurring, no smoothing. Yeah it alone, right, 255 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:48.839 I know it's sixteen by sixteen pixels. Show me the sharp lines. 256 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.680 You can see those in visual studio? I think, yep, yeah, 257 00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.799 you can in visual studio that is. But if you it's a little weird. 258 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:02.319 Visual studio previewer for images can be a little funk. But when f 259 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:03.759 SDK, when you zoom in, I was like, I just want to 260 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.680 turn off this thing and all the solutions I found. We're a WPF because 261 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:12.680 there are a lot of solutions out there, but there are a lot of 262 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:17.359 re WVF because it's been around, it's you know, it's battle tested, 263 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:22.480 well you want it's been abstracted from the platform the whole time. There's no 264 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.799 direct platform dependencies. I mean, let's be clear here. Win app SDK 265 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.759 is what the Windows teams use to build parts of Windows. It's C plus 266 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:37.480 plus first and foremost. It supports dot Net C sharp act all. But 267 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.880 does it like I could see where there be you know what their first language 268 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.720 is. Their first language is C plus plus and so every saw you know, 269 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:48.720 sometimes you look at a call inside of when when you I go, 270 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.160 you know, if I was a C plus plus person, that would be 271 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:55.799 awesome, but I'm a C sharp person and ah am I going to do 272 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:02.279 this well exactly And the new the brand new again build announcement. I think 273 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:06.319 it was co pilot run time. Is that the name of it? Which 274 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:11.000 is the new all the models that they're going to bring, the different mL 275 00:21:11.079 --> 00:21:15.039 models to win PSDK. Right. I was looking at these saying, you 276 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.079 know what, I have an Apple context grab that would love to have some 277 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:23.519 really updated OCR capabilities. And they're like, here's how you implement it in 278 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:30.680 C plus plus and I'm right, can I That's this happened with in the 279 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.160 early days of dot net, with C sharp and VB dot net. The 280 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.240 first samples were always written in C sharp right, and the VB dot Net 281 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.480 people were understandably annoyed. It's like, come on, made me switch? 282 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:42.400 Yeah, well, I had the big My problem was that I was so 283 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:45.440 used to writing VB that I kept forgetting it was VB dot net when I 284 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.799 was writing C sharp. You knew you were writing, You really did know, 285 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.960 so your brain made the context switch, but you know you hit on 286 00:21:53.039 --> 00:21:57.480 it. It's a C plus plus first API. As much as they and 287 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:02.119 I appreciate them doing this, try to make it friendly for dot net folks 288 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:06.240 that's not his native language. I think of these two platforms though, as 289 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:11.839 serving different you know, customers. I think of Adobe, you know, 290 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:17.000 using the win app API for their applications, you know, because they're all 291 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:22.240 C plus plus you know, maximum performance kind of things. Whereas business software, 292 00:22:22.839 --> 00:22:26.160 you know, and software that we're writing for ourselves. You don't want 293 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:30.000 to have to do all that, you know, the you need to be 294 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:36.519 productive, and that's where WPF really shines absolutely. And WPF is great for 295 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:40.680 forms over data. It has a visual designer, It has a huge toolbox 296 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.880 of controls. It has a huge supported ecosystem of companies who build controls, 297 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:51.000 who offer contracts, and people who know how to how the system works and 298 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.519 can jump in and fix it and they know the common pitfalls. I'm sorry, 299 00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:57.480 did you just casually say visual designer? Does it? Is that design? 300 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:02.640 I mean, if you're as person like I came to appreciate that the 301 00:23:02.680 --> 00:23:07.319 wind Forms designer was the exception. There's that every other attempted designer couldn't hold 302 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.039 a candle to what wind Forms did. That's true, but WPF has a 303 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:17.680 visual designer and the number one request of ONEPSTK and when UI is a visual 304 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.839 designer and what's going on, the team has not built it yet, it's 305 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:25.359 not as because it's not easy. Look at how long it took the WPF 306 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.319 team to make what is usable like, it's hard. It's hard, you 307 00:23:27.359 --> 00:23:30.799 know. It seems like we have this conversation Richard every once a year or 308 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:34.119 two years or so, and you bring up the same point and I come 309 00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:40.240 back with the same comeback, which is Windows Forms is pixel based, yep, 310 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:45.920 and designers are easy when it's pixel based, but not of the UI 311 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:51.720 isn't flexible like it is in sample and so that just by nature you don't 312 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:55.000 have like, have you ever seen a web designer that was close to Windows 313 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:56.440 Forms, No, because it's not pixel based either. Well, and I 314 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.079 point out that wind Forms isn't pixel based anymore either since three dot one SDK 315 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:06.279 now they're doing interpolation for high resolution, which is why it wasn't pixel perfect 316 00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:10.480 to switch over to it but you know, point well taken. And let's 317 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:17.240 face it, I rarely want to manipulate the designer. I want that continuous 318 00:24:17.319 --> 00:24:19.920 view as i'm editing code. What I mean by pixel based Richard is if 319 00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:23.880 you put a button, you have a location which is pixel based. Whether 320 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.960 it gets scaled it is a different thing. But you start with a grid, 321 00:24:29.559 --> 00:24:32.039 you know, and you have the X and y. Are you know 322 00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:34.680 one hundred and one hundred that that's where it is? Yeah, on the 323 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.960 page a bit more thing might scale and move around depending on the you know, 324 00:24:40.119 --> 00:24:44.720 flow layout or whatever. But it is it's interesting how the tools are 325 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.720 adapting, even design tools. I mean stuff like Pigma. I don't know 326 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.759 how familiar. Oh yeah where yeah I got bit by Figma. Yeah, 327 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.799 Pigma is a really interesting isn't it? And where's a lot of the energy 328 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.279 and wears a lot of the cool stuff built? Is it like auto layout 329 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:04.480 which is not pixel perfect? You know, those controls float and they resize 330 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:08.400 and they you know, they fill the space in weird dynamic ways and it's 331 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:15.559 hard to do, but it's It's also interesting because WPF with the visual designer. 332 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.519 I think initially you might think, oh, I'm going to be looking 333 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:21.960 at the whole app with all of your child components and all of this stuff, 334 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:22.680 and you're like, wow, that's a lot. You know, that's 335 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.680 a lot of stuff to visually display. But really what I find the visual 336 00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.720 designer handy for is I want to look at a small little component because you 337 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:33.640 know, I'm building a little button and I'm building a little screen page, 338 00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:38.599 and I just want to see my little component as I'm updating it and maybe 339 00:25:38.599 --> 00:25:41.279 I forget to put some property on there and it's all the way to the 340 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:45.039 side and not you know, whatever it is. I want to be able 341 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.119 to design these little components and then you bring all the components together, you 342 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:51.519 run the app and you see how it flows, and you see how it 343 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:53.480 you know, works as a running app. But I think that's kind of 344 00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.799 where it is really convenient. Yeah, And to that point, it's like, 345 00:25:56.839 --> 00:26:00.359 we're also no longer in the land. If everybody has a desktop PC, 346 00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.359 you're expected to make this stuff look good on a tablet and on a 347 00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:10.079 phone and everywhere else. And these new design tools are way more capable of 348 00:26:10.119 --> 00:26:15.000 that. There's nothing certain, of course, but you know capable. And 349 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:21.480 when UI has I think UWP introduced it UWP's zambo. But there's like these 350 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:25.880 view states where you can have breakpoints, which it's so nice when you have 351 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.400 a window that you can shrink down, and the UI kind of adapts and 352 00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.519 compacts so that you can have a little column and your you know, navigation 353 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.079 view changes or your UI moves around so that you can still hit the buttons. 354 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:40.960 And some of these old school to WPF apps, you resize that window. 355 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:44.119 Yeah, you can't use the app anymore. You are sav Yeah, 356 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:48.160 buttons are gone, right like, well, I guess I'm not allowed to 357 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:52.160 have it like that. And so I think that's kind of the thinking here 358 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:55.720 is if you want to build more of a modern dynamic app, there are 359 00:26:55.759 --> 00:27:00.240 tools for you. But if you are supporting an old WFPP or a very 360 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:07.559 purpose built utility, WPF is here and Microsoft is doing some big investments to 361 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:12.440 make it better. I'm looking at the contributors for the past few months in 362 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:18.799 on GitHub repository, and the maestro bot has been pushing code constantly. M 363 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:23.759 hm. So you know, just again, you know that proofs in the 364 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.119 pudding. It's like, there's no better example than there is new code going 365 00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:32.720 into WPF right now. Yep, yeah. I think the two big announcements 366 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:37.599 that came out of build was the Windows eleven styling yeah, and hyphen based 367 00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:45.559 ligature support. So get excited. Iphen based what ligatures? I'm sorry, 368 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:51.640 so excited? Yeah, I'm tell me about that. Honestly, it's not 369 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:55.839 a future I use Richard. I don't even know what it means. Sorry, 370 00:27:55.880 --> 00:27:57.319 I'm going to have to that's something Mike in Google, Dang after the 371 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.880 show. It's just a yeah, it's the way that lay out on the 372 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:06.519 page based on Okay, so yeah, but it's been it's been an open 373 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:11.400 issue for since twenty eighteen. Has opened right away, yep, so that's 374 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:12.920 getting fixed. Yeah, No, it's it's this is a yeah. So 375 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.920 this is about the features of This is a C plus plus approach to coding, 376 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:19.160 right, m m. So it's how do you how do you pass 377 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:26.079 these things? All? Right? I mean it's you know that now now 378 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.359 that we talk about this way, I realize, hey, you know this 379 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.839 is all the same problem from working on it for different teams. You need 380 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.759 to think about the origins of UWP was Microsoft was supposed to have a phone 381 00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.160 and a tablet and a PC, and they wanted to make it easy for 382 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.680 us to code for all of them, and the Windows team tried to drive 383 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.759 that that's the original concept of UWP, and it's spun up to become the 384 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:52.440 win FSDK. And the same issue existed with from Zamorin and from Zammal and 385 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:56.319 from silver Light. Like ZAMA was very fragmented for a long time there until 386 00:28:56.680 --> 00:29:02.480 the last few years where they've kind of brought all the zamble back together because 387 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.359 they were in a state. But we were all struggling with the same essential 388 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.920 problem, which is that the age of the thing, the client machine is 389 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.559 the same as the dev machine has been dead for a long time. Did 390 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.960 they really bring all the amals back together for them? Was I sleeping through 391 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:23.000 that? It's essentially if you think about what is MAUI, that's Maui. 392 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:29.839 It's no, it's just another flavor of Sammel. I agree, but it's 393 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.400 the it's supposed to be the dominant flavor. It's supposed to be but not. 394 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.359 I don't think I'm with you. It's definitely that was the mission. 395 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:41.720 There's a few others in the process. I kind of think that's the way 396 00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:45.759 with everything, though. You know, when UI UWP was supposed to be 397 00:29:45.799 --> 00:29:48.039 the one xamal to rule them all. Yeah. I mean, but they 398 00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:52.880 but they they have this thing called backward compatibility that they can't break. So 399 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.359 these ammals are going to last forever. Yeah, yeah, they really are. 400 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:02.400 And I think ultimately when you see Microsoft do these big jumps and turn 401 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.240 around and look at their developers and say all right, follow me, follow 402 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.079 me to UWP, and I think they have a Microsoft. Their biggest problem 403 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:15.920 is that all of their developers and the people working with them are really, 404 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:22.119 really smart. Yeah, so they don't always follow directions and they think, 405 00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:25.000 let me do the math, let me see where that works for me and 406 00:30:25.039 --> 00:30:27.440 my business and my apps. They're not just going to jump. They's too 407 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:32.200 smart for that. And also they've been bit in the past. So you 408 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:37.240 have all these developers who's who look at the UBP and they say, okay, 409 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:40.359 what's my trade off? I spend a bunch of time investing in this, 410 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.960 what do I get? And the answer wasn't super clear. It was 411 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.079 like, oh, you get a different app that's touch friendly for devices that 412 00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:52.279 are not you know, super broad. Yeah, it's not touch. But 413 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.880 when you look at Maui, you say, oh, you can use your 414 00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:00.359 language, your platform that you know, and you can push it on iphonees. 415 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.480 I think people go, okay, yep, I see the trade off. 416 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:07.559 I will learn a new you know, a new flavor of examle because 417 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.000 getting your dot net app on an iPhone is a big deal. That's a 418 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:14.480 big deal and it's really hard to do. And I'm not going to learn 419 00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.400 HTML. Sorry, Carl, I'm not doing CSS. No, No, 420 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.759 that's fine, and I'll reciprocate. I think that once you learn zamal of 421 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.759 any type, you know, doing the other flavors of xamal isn't that big 422 00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:30.160 a deal. They're just keywords, you know, right, once you know 423 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:36.119 the I mean, I don't know really if the I know, the binding 424 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:41.559 syntax in WPF is really sophisticated. I'm not so sure it's as sophisticated in 425 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:47.079 the other flavors of xamal, but I wouldn't know. Yeah, it's it 426 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:49.400 is actually really sophisticated. And some of the things that make that binding and 427 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.599 win APSDK that I've in some of my apps that I've made that's really really 428 00:31:53.680 --> 00:32:01.119 nice is a little tool that Microsoft builds in the community toolkit called MVVM Toolkit. 429 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:05.200 I think it is. Yeah, yeah, and that makes it really 430 00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:08.759 easy to do, like property change and you just add that little attribute to 431 00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.799 the top of your properties and it rights source generates all of the code for 432 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.680 you. And so that makes binding and updating and keeping everything in sync and 433 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.079 binding it to the view model super easy. Like it's not even a problem 434 00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.559 anymore. Everything is up to date, everything is fast and quick. Yeah, 435 00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:30.960 that's an amazing tool. It is no important, like you're seeing a 436 00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:35.240 way forward years just nothing as simple. It's been a while since, say 437 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:38.839 you see MBAVM toolkit. But if there was one of these things that required 438 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:45.960 you to your models to inherit from a base class, maybe it was the 439 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.839 view model that inherits from a base class. But I really don't like model 440 00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:54.839 having to inherit base classes in models. I can't remember which one that was 441 00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.160 though, Yeah, i'ld have to pull it my repounded. Yeah. I 442 00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:01.880 don't know if you have to make it astruct or what, but it is. 443 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:06.839 It's really nice to be able to drop that attribute on things and just 444 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:09.200 say, okay, I agree, can you handle this complexity for me? 445 00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:14.000 I'm focused on solving a business need right now. Yeah, right, It 446 00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:15.920 sures out to be always the truth. Mm hmm. Yeah, Hey guys, 447 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:21.559 hold that thought for just this moment, for these very important messages. 448 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:27.359 We'll be right back. Hey, Carl here, tired of the debugging grind, 449 00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.960 Let's talk about a breakthrough that's here to help. Raygun's AI error resolution 450 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:37.240 isn't just another tool. It's like having a seasoned developer right by your side, 451 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:44.359 suggesting fixes and explaining errors in real time. If you're curious as to 452 00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:47.839 how it can smooth out your debugging day, visit raygun dot com, slash 453 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:52.839 dot net rocks that's raygun, r A y g u n dot com slash 454 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:58.279 d O t n E t r o c ks for your free fourteen day 455 00:33:58.319 --> 00:34:05.359 trial to explore the way ray gun is revolutionizing debugging. 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I'm Carl Franklin, That's Richard Campbell, hey, and that's 464 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.000 Joe Finny, and we're talking WPF. It's getting a facelift or an update, 465 00:34:55.079 --> 00:35:01.119 or an upgrade or something. It give Karen eating caring attention. Definitely 466 00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:06.440 a facelift if you want it. So if you're if you're a WPF developer 467 00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:10.679 and you want your WPF app to look like Windows eleven, then you can 468 00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:15.280 add in a little resource dictionary to your app and the boom, you got 469 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.159 all that UI for you. I'm going to sound like an old man here, 470 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.920 but is there a Is there a tool to make Windows eleven look like 471 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:28.639 Windows ten? That would be cool? It's called Yeah. I'm sure there's 472 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.519 somebody who sells something out there that does that. Great. Can I just 473 00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:37.440 complain a minute here? When you write click on a file and you expect, 474 00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:43.400 like a ZIP file for example, you expect properties and you know on 475 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:47.039 whatever, undo this? You know what am I trying to say on zip. 476 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:51.719 Yeah, not on zip, but you want properties, you have to 477 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:55.960 go to more properties to get the to get the things that you want, 478 00:35:57.079 --> 00:36:01.000 Like they're trying to hide things from you. Hey, yeah, it's the 479 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:06.719 taskbar settings. Why do I have to do three extra clicks now to hide 480 00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:10.639 my taskbar and unhide it? No, that's it's definitely a challenge. And 481 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:17.400 to Richard's point earlier about how fast WPF grew up whenever Visual Studio started taking 482 00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:22.440 it and using net, I think the same thing is happening with win fsdk 483 00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:29.440 because the file Explorer in Windows eleven is built in win fsdk. I believe 484 00:36:30.760 --> 00:36:32.639 that was the word I was looking for. Sorry on block Okay, yeah, 485 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:39.199 it's and it is a definitely there's a lot of attention on the file 486 00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:45.159 Explorer in Windows eleven and the reight click menu and how performant things are and 487 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:47.280 what it can do and how it's different from Windows ten. And I think 488 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.119 the team is getting a lot of feedback and a lot of the challenges that 489 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:55.599 they had with performance, where win fsdk challenges because it's so low level, 490 00:36:55.639 --> 00:37:00.480 it needs to be super performant, and so hopefully in dot Net nine with 491 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:06.159 AOT and all of those fancy things. Hopefully they are listening and building and 492 00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:10.679 responding. But it's yeah, it's hard whenever you have such an ingrained user 493 00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:14.360 base who really knows how to get things done, and then you move their 494 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.800 cheese under a show more button. Does this imply that the win FSDK to 495 00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:22.920 that is the low level library to Windows ends, and that win WPF will 496 00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:27.519 sit over top of that and just give you access to all those capabilities. 497 00:37:27.599 --> 00:37:30.760 I don't. I don't necessarily think so. I think WPF is not. 498 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:32.960 I don't think the role that it's serving is going to change. I think 499 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:36.960 it's still going to sit in its own little like this. You know, 500 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:42.199 you build apps in these vertical stacks. You can already today. I think 501 00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:45.239 they're like giving your WPF a package identity. You can kind of wrap it 502 00:37:45.400 --> 00:37:52.719 in a package, and then you can access those win rt APIs So you 503 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.280 can do that today. You've actually been able to do that for a while 504 00:37:55.320 --> 00:38:00.480 now, and they are that's kind of where they're investing. That's where the 505 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:05.000 team is investing a lot of those interesting models and doing some of that weird 506 00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:07.239 stuff, and so you can do all that well, I mean they're talking 507 00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:12.360 about servicing the Win eleven controls and look not to me sounds like you're just 508 00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.760 putting access to the API into WPF. I think it's styling. I don't 509 00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.360 think that they are sling. Yeah, I think that they're bringing just the 510 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.719 look and feel. I don't think that there's any sort of OS level injection 511 00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:31.280 into WPF. I mean, you just described how the file menu in File 512 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:36.239 Explorer in Windows eleven is different because it's built against the wind app a SDK. 513 00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:39.639 So you know the fact that if I could do that in WPF, 514 00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:44.360 now that would mean okay, there's I have access to win FSDK without using 515 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:49.079 it directly. No, I do think that WPF new UI is mainly just 516 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:53.159 UI. So they're when it. Actually the announcement came in like two steps, 517 00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:59.239 so before build, I think in like February maybe, Yeah, Microsoft 518 00:39:00.039 --> 00:39:07.280 announced that the open source library WPFUI. Yeah, it was collaborating with Win 519 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:12.320 eleven, was collaborating with the team, and Microsoft is going to make this 520 00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:15.639 the UI of WPF officially. Yeah, that was December of twenty three. 521 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:19.639 Okay, it was December well ahead of build, but you know, so 522 00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.719 that's where they announced, Hey, look we are we're going to use this 523 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.079 as the because they were a couple out there. I think it was there 524 00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:32.159 was modern modern WPF, like you're speaking to the same problem though that WPF 525 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:37.920 apps are looking dated, right, And so this developer made a really popular 526 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:43.960 repository. It was being used by the Power Toys team for a couple of 527 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:47.920 their utilities and actually contributing back and I think really gauging the health and the 528 00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.840 vitality of that project. And then Microsoft announced, hey, we're going to 529 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.440 partner with them. And then in build they showed off the WPF gallery preview 530 00:39:57.519 --> 00:40:01.400 app and how easy it is to basically add one line to your app sammele 531 00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:06.760 and boom everything. Your app looks like it's Windows eleven. But I do 532 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.599 believe that that's a big distinction. It looks like it, right, it 533 00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:15.079 is not when UI three. Okay, it looks like when UI three. 534 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:17.679 It is not when UI three from what I understand I would know. I 535 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:22.920 think that's an important distinction too, because that is again a theming thing versus 536 00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:27.679 a functionality thing. Yes, yeah, and stuff like aot you know, 537 00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:31.239 like compiling your app at a time, all of that great stuff. One 538 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:39.079 ap SDK, so right, now there's no trimming, there's no all of 539 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:43.440 that stuff does not exist in WPF. It's just the way that it's built. 540 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:47.199 Trimming support, I think is yeah, is not trim compatible. Very 541 00:40:47.239 --> 00:40:52.840 popular, well requested future in WPF, and the team has not announced that 542 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.239 they are going to make it trim compatible. And so when you make a 543 00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:00.079 self contained WPF app, it it holds the whole framework with that. It's 544 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:04.400 big, it's you know, it's all there, which is good, but 545 00:41:04.480 --> 00:41:08.119 also that's just what you expect when you want to take a dependency on WPF. 546 00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:13.280 That's how it is, right, Okay, I mean, yeah, 547 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:16.960 this is it's very interesting, and I'm stunned to see that that Power Toys 548 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.239 was kind of at the center all of this, right that in a lot 549 00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.320 of ways, I'm looking at the various messages and stuff that they always reference 550 00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:30.679 Power Toys like you're the folks you work with and you contributed to were exemplars 551 00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:36.840 of ways to modernize WPF apps into Win eleven, right, Yeah, to 552 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:39.599 the point where they've actually adopting it. Yeah, this is the how do 553 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:46.239 you actually do agile at a company like Microsoft with a product like Windows, 554 00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:50.719 Right, how do you do that? Without like how do you make these 555 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.239 smaller bets and experiment with these different platforms? And I think the way you 556 00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:58.639 do it is you experiment where you can. And Power Toys was very much 557 00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:04.480 a heavy feedback tool, like if you do something to the Windows team, 558 00:42:04.599 --> 00:42:07.800 very deeply connected to the Windows team, but also to the community. So 559 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:14.840 the open source community is vibrants. There are over five thousand issues open and 560 00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:16.360 I don't even know, I don't even want to know how many have been 561 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:22.039 closed, and so it's a very popular repository. So it is kind of 562 00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:24.320 the like tip of the spear for what are we doing? What? How 563 00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:29.719 can we unblocked developers? How can we make people more productive? And set 564 00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:34.320 with a utility like text extractor and power Toys the only way to do like 565 00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:38.639 a big full screen overlay with transparent windows. That was WPF because you would 566 00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:43.360 have thought it would have been win appasedly k you maybe would think that, 567 00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:47.719 but Nope, Nope, it was WPF. Is there anything Joe in the 568 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:52.159 new WPF that you think they got wrong? No, I don't think so. 569 00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.039 Right now. I think they're they're taking a very cautious approach. I 570 00:42:55.039 --> 00:43:00.400 mean, I think it's anything you don't like not yet. I mean again, 571 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:07.320 it's still in preview, so I think I want to see some of 572 00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.360 the like interactivity stuff come forward, like being able to pinch and zoom and 573 00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:14.079 interact with it in a much like if you have a scroll viewer and you 574 00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:17.559 could just flick it with your finger on your surface laptop or whatever. Right. 575 00:43:17.719 --> 00:43:22.159 Yeah, that's really nice, and it doesn't seem like that is really 576 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.599 on the road map today, so it really is a look and feel. 577 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:29.639 So that is kind of the trickiness there where you can have two apps that 578 00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:34.320 maybe look very similar, but under their hood used two very different technologies and 579 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.920 end up behaving differently from a user standpoint. So part of me thinks, 580 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:42.000 well, it's great they look the same. But also in the same way 581 00:43:42.039 --> 00:43:46.920 that USBC can be challenging because it communicates universal a universal form factor, but 582 00:43:47.079 --> 00:43:52.400 it is not universal. No. Yeah, it's just shape on each end 583 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.519 and the cable all three have us say, right, which would at least 584 00:43:55.519 --> 00:44:00.800 to too many. Yeah, So that's kind of my only has tation is 585 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:06.239 Okay, you've done this, yeah, and now the people doesn't work right, 586 00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:08.119 Yeah, And these little things apps look the same and one flicks and 587 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:12.199 one doesn't hm, and you say, well why is that? And they 588 00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:14.760 go, well, how much time do you have? Sit down? Right 589 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:16.840 here we go, Yeah, it's a nuanced dancer. I'm going to bring 590 00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:23.079 in Windows Vista so back in. Yeah. Yeah, but it also speaks 591 00:44:23.119 --> 00:44:25.920 to a roadmap then too. It's like, you know what it could do 592 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.039 implement flick right, Yeah, And I think that's kind of the again, 593 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:35.679 how do you implement something like this at such a big old product. You 594 00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:37.400 don't just say you have to use it. So if you make a new 595 00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:42.920 VPF deep today, it's going to look you know, it's got that battleship 596 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.239 gray. That's it's not going to look at any different. You have to 597 00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:47.840 opt in. So I think you're still going to see a lot of people 598 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:52.679 who do not use the new UI and a lot of apps that even though 599 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:54.920 this is there, people are not going to use it, they're not going 600 00:44:54.920 --> 00:45:00.679 to opt into it. So mainly I would say I would be interested to 601 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.199 see how big of an EFFECTUS has going forward, because how many new WPF 602 00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:10.159 apps are being created, right, I'm not sure, but yeah, yeah, 603 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:14.679 they demonstrated a conversion of an existing app. I think they went back 604 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:19.360 to the picture viewer sample that was built way back in the day, and 605 00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.039 they added one line and said, hey, look theming support, lightmode, 606 00:45:22.119 --> 00:45:29.960 dark mode support, stuff like that. So hopefully developers are updating their apps. 607 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:34.280 Yeah, I'd be more interested in. I've been using modern WPF and 608 00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:37.239 it's starting to get a little stale. Now how do I roll out modern 609 00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:42.360 WPF and roll in this new capability and add your magic line? Hey, 610 00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:44.639 you know, speaking of upgrades. I got to take him minute here and 611 00:45:44.679 --> 00:45:50.119 thank my buddy Richard, because I have this old ATX case that had a 612 00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:57.280 power supply, like you know, from the Clinton administration, and it was 613 00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:00.000 so noisy. I was using it as an unraid server and I was like, 614 00:46:00.480 --> 00:46:04.159 Richard, this thing is so loud and I have to put it in 615 00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:08.000 the studio. Do you know, find me a quiet ATX power supply. 616 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.920 He's like, this is what you want. I think. I was in 617 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:14.920 an airport too, literally walking and just went, wait a sec, little, 618 00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:19.400 you're so quiet. I can't even hear it. Yeah, it's so 619 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.639 nice. It's a thermal take. Okay, I's going to say say who 620 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:27.679 it is? Yeah, proper pre and I think we deliberately oversize it. 621 00:46:27.719 --> 00:46:30.239 So the fan never even spun up. Yeah, you're burning about five hundred 622 00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:32.559 wats put in the eight hund w the final leave ever even turn on. 623 00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:38.800 Yeah. So now I have a fifty terabyte fifty terabyte RAID server. You 624 00:46:38.840 --> 00:46:43.360 can't even hear ye expect the hard drives to be the loudest thing in it. 625 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.199 Yeah, I know that's right. I was actually sitting having dinner and 626 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.840 I'm like, what is that thumping? Do you hear that? At least? 627 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:53.039 Like that's your computer, you idiot. That's although all those arms start 628 00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:55.559 stroking at the same time, you're going to generate some noise. Yeah, 629 00:46:55.880 --> 00:47:00.519 copying files well anyway, Yeah, it's about making things old new, and 630 00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:06.280 that's that's what we're doing, whether it's hardware software, everybody's got to do 631 00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:08.840 that at some point with their software hopefully. Yeah. I think I feel 632 00:47:08.840 --> 00:47:15.000 like we're boxes problem. They The problem here is that you always want to 633 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:19.000 use the code that people are using and so not on the surface level you 634 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:20.480 say, oh, well, win app SDK is the way to go. 635 00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:23.599 Is lots of people using it, but they're all Microsoft people in C plus 636 00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:30.119 plus. I don't know how many c sharp people are using it in production 637 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:32.159 apps. Well, Joe raised this hand. Yeah, Joe being a strange 638 00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:37.039 alien. Yeah, I've got a few out that it's not so not just 639 00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:39.719 chex scrap Nope. Yeah. So win app SDK is what I use for 640 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:45.800 a simple icon file maker, for some QR code maker, for a few 641 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:50.920 little Windows utility apps that I build because I was like, hmmm, I 642 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:54.039 don't like randomly googling a website and trying to find a QR code that seems 643 00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:57.639 a little sketchy. It's a little sketchy. And I was like, I 644 00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:02.440 will use this as an opportunity to learn and v toolkit and went FSDK and 645 00:48:02.480 --> 00:48:06.719 here we go. Here's a little free utility for the community. But to 646 00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:08.760 your point about you want to use the tool that other people are using, 647 00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:13.159 You want to use the frameworks and the languages that are healthy and supported. 648 00:48:13.960 --> 00:48:19.519 This is we I know, Microsoft is late to the big open source game, 649 00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:24.199 and it is kind of a unique position. The community isn't typically very 650 00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:30.639 open, but you'll see this with like modern WPF and WPFUI, where you 651 00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:37.239 have these communities supported UI frameworks to support WPF and so part of the interesting 652 00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:42.840 thing is Microsoft had abandoned it and it was so popular that the open source 653 00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:46.760 community stepped up and made these awesome tools with all these awesome controls to really, 654 00:48:46.920 --> 00:48:52.920 you know, help developers stay being productive. And now Microsoft's come back 655 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:55.000 to it. Because of that, they have come back. They have identified 656 00:48:55.039 --> 00:49:00.159 hey, there's an audience here, and then they picked a winner. So 657 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:04.679 this is where open source gets weird, because now, if you were building 658 00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:10.760 a moderately popular WPF UI framework, what do you do? How do you 659 00:49:12.559 --> 00:49:15.960 manage that transition? And I think that's to your point Richard, about I 660 00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:20.480 have an app that's using one of those frameworks. How do I drop the 661 00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:25.079 dependency and use the new Microsoft mone I think that's yeah, you know, 662 00:49:25.159 --> 00:49:29.000 you hated it. On one hand, you've got Kenara, the guy who 663 00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:32.679 created modern WPF, but you can make nice with him, and in some 664 00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:36.559 way, I mean, I think about when Ron Eisenberg hung up durandall, 665 00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:38.599 as he said, angler's a better way to go. He changed his mind 666 00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.960 later. That's a separate issue, you know, and so Canara could say 667 00:49:43.039 --> 00:49:45.719 much the same thing. It's like, hey, you know, because you 668 00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:47.480 can also see that he was struggling to keep up, and I'm presuming it's 669 00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:51.840 a he I hate that I did just did that, but you know, 670 00:49:51.880 --> 00:49:55.000 there were a lot of demands on that to try and keep all the features 671 00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:59.840 in there. So and Microsoft picking a winner just by putting fts on it. 672 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:02.559 Yeah, you know, the rest of us are all volunteers contributing over 673 00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:07.239 source once in a while, and Microsoft goes, here's for forty hour a 674 00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:13.719 week, people to contribute to this library. Watch the PR's flow. Yeah, 675 00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:17.679 and watch the preview new get packages pop in every single week and new 676 00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:21.599 preview and you're like, wow, the rate of this really sped up. 677 00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:25.000 But I think it is It's an interesting example there where I don't know what 678 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:30.800 the model is, what the what is the transitionary period there, because unlike 679 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:34.639 people get into dot net to make money, to make tools for companies and 680 00:50:34.760 --> 00:50:40.159 businesses to do things, it's not usually just random fun goofy stuff, right, 681 00:50:40.320 --> 00:50:45.159 And this is the point where if you're building these frameworks and you're doing 682 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:47.480 it for a couple of years, you probably have a lot of users and 683 00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:52.880 there's a lot of dependencies there. So whose responsibility is that, you know? 684 00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:57.400 And that's it. It's tricky now that Microsoft has picked a winner of 685 00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:00.239 Okay, we're going to do our new stuff, don't use those. Third 686 00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:06.079 part of UYS is kind of what they're signaling, use ours. And then 687 00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:09.239 if you're over there, you're like, well, am I on an island? 688 00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:12.800 What's you know? Who builds the bridge? Away? Is the a 689 00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:15.039 bridge? Yeah? Man, who pays to build a bridge? You know? 690 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:17.039 Do you just say, okay, we're gonna well, you're just gonna 691 00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:22.119 build migrations from the top three most popular and help those I think I hope 692 00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:24.280 they would do that, because more likely, I mean, it's also very 693 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:30.000 reasonable as a lead dev who committed to WPFUI or to modern WPF to have 694 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:32.679 to stand up in a scrum one day and go, guys, we have 695 00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:36.760 to add this to the sprint. We have to switch all this code has 696 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:39.639 to change or we're going to be in real trouble longer. We can't keep 697 00:51:39.679 --> 00:51:43.880 adding more code depending on this library that probably won't get a lot of love 698 00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:47.480 anymore when all the action's over here. And that's a tough meeting, because 699 00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.400 that is bumping out a set of features. Largely, if you do it 700 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:57.480 right, nobody will be able to tell, Like, you won't even be 701 00:51:57.519 --> 00:52:00.079 able to see a change right, You'll burn it. Coup several sprints to 702 00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:04.400 do it. It's the sound guy problem. If you don't. Ever, 703 00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:08.320 nobody can tell ye, I've lived as a system administrator. You can never 704 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:13.039 get an A. You can get an F easy, you drop perfectly, 705 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:19.400 you get a C. Wow, that audio doesn't suck. Nobody says that. 706 00:52:19.559 --> 00:52:22.719 Nobody says that, yeah, yeah, true, But yeah it is. 707 00:52:23.599 --> 00:52:28.960 Yeah, it's it's interesting and I think we'll we'll see how it continues 708 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:32.000 to play out, but hopefully Microsoft has a pretty good metered, steady approach. 709 00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:37.440 And there's a pushback on here is is this a better? Is this 710 00:52:37.519 --> 00:52:43.320 better? Is this better? The community has grown up around solving a problem 711 00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:46.480 in a very reasonable way, although you can see the cracks of trying to 712 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:52.119 keep up with the cadence of the new features and especially Win eleven, and 713 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.239 now it's like, are they solving a problem or they hijacking problem? Like 714 00:52:55.360 --> 00:52:58.519 I think depending on what seat you're sitting, and you can see it either 715 00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:04.159 way. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, I it is. It's a 716 00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:07.480 major challenge for open source in general. And I don't I don't think that 717 00:53:07.480 --> 00:53:10.800 that problem has been solved yet, and I don't think it's going to be 718 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:15.719 solved here. No, Well, there's a reason we keep talking about it 719 00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:21.119 on the show. Like I am. I have been drinking with a great 720 00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:27.639 community maintainer who watched two FT show up on his project and just start pushing 721 00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:30.519 prs like lightning. And it was not just that he was getting contributions, 722 00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:34.960 but these people were not in love with the product. This was their job. 723 00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:37.000 They were told by a PM work on this. Here's the feature set 724 00:53:37.039 --> 00:53:44.239 we want. And it feels invasive. Yeah, definitely, No, it's 725 00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:47.280 and you know, did a product get better? Yeah, if you agree 726 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:52.760 with the direction they were going in. If you didn't, then what fork 727 00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:57.840 it? Yeah, And that's something I haven't seen yet, but I wonder 728 00:53:57.880 --> 00:54:00.880 about the day. I don't think stof would ever do this politically, it's 729 00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:06.239 insane to say, you know, the contributor is the maintainer hasn't agreed with 730 00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:07.320 us, We think these are important features show, We're going to do a 731 00:54:07.360 --> 00:54:10.000 fork and here we go. Yeah, Like, I just don't think that. 732 00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:15.599 I think they fall out of that would be disastrous. What the fork 733 00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:21.480 anyway? Yeah? Yeah, it's We're just going to keep seeing people try 734 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:23.639 different ways. But I think I do think one of the main things is 735 00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:28.880 communicating it ahead of time, and I remember I'm listening to a previous episode 736 00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:32.519 of dot net Rocks with a guest, maybe the maintainer of b unit. 737 00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:38.280 What's talking about kind of what do you want? What is the purpose of 738 00:54:38.320 --> 00:54:42.800 this open source? And I almost I've kind of thought about this with some 739 00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:45.880 of my own projects, which is maybe we should have like a goals file 740 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:49.800 or maybe it should be part of our read me, which is, what's 741 00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:53.679 the purpose here? Are you trying to you know, test a market and 742 00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:57.679 then turn this into a money making endeavor? Are you trying to turn this 743 00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:00.559 into a job. Are you trying to turn this into a portfolio piece? 744 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:04.199 Are you trying to hand this off as soon as possible? You know? 745 00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:08.320 Is this a hot potato project or is this a long lasting, long lived 746 00:55:08.360 --> 00:55:13.280 like I want to build this, I want to maintain it. I it 747 00:55:13.320 --> 00:55:16.360 can go on forever. And it's like it would be kind of nice for 748 00:55:16.480 --> 00:55:21.199 people to identify the kind of project that they're doing. And maybe that's what 749 00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:23.199 licenses used to be. And I mean, you bring up b unit and 750 00:55:23.239 --> 00:55:28.119 I literally was with Eagle last week and maybe I'm probably not speaking out of 751 00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.440 turn. He wanted this to exist. He was building Blazer stuff and he 752 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:36.679 needed a testing library, and so he shared it out the idea that maybe 753 00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:39.440 a couple of fd show up and add a whole bunch of features, like 754 00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:45.079 in the end, he wanted a testing framework for Blazer. Like, either 755 00:55:45.079 --> 00:55:49.800 way, that's a good outcome. But you're right, you end up looking 756 00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:53.519 into the souls of maintainers and you're going to see a variety of things in 757 00:55:53.559 --> 00:55:58.119 there. What motivated you? Where are you trying to get to? You 758 00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:00.559 know, what's important to you? Yep? And what is the deal with 759 00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:04.079 this project? Now? If to your point, if someone who goes to 760 00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:07.719 show up, what do you want them to have with them? Yeah, 761 00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:13.519 like resources in the form of time, development resources, money, a check, 762 00:56:14.199 --> 00:56:15.880 yeah, you know, consistent revenue. Like you're trying to build a 763 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:19.280 brand here, you're trying to build a business here. Did you want to 764 00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:22.679 get hired by Microsoft to work on this full time? Right? Sometimes that's 765 00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:28.559 the goal? Yeah, I think about Anthony and oh yeah, Now the 766 00:56:28.599 --> 00:56:30.880 names just jumped out in the head. They who are building the instrumentation on 767 00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:35.159 the client's side, Glimpse, glimpse. You're right, good call BacT dude. 768 00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:39.079 Yeah, and get glimpse was what it was called. And I don't 769 00:56:39.079 --> 00:56:44.400 think they intended that, but it's certainly what happened. And then they got 770 00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:46.000 pulled away from it too, right, like, hey, now you work 771 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:50.639 for the machine. You don't get to work on what you want. Right. 772 00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:52.679 Well, that's the interesting thing is if you're looking to take a dependency 773 00:56:53.280 --> 00:56:58.679 and you see that this is basically a portfolio piece, well you're not going 774 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:00.760 to take that dependency because you're like, as soon as you get a job, 775 00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:06.400 you're you're out, you're gone, and this project is over. Yeah, 776 00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:08.480 totally true. Yeah, it's it's an interesting thing. And I mean 777 00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:12.920 WPF hasn't really had to fight this or like be in the middle of a 778 00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:15.679 of a project like this for a long time because it was kind of dormant. 779 00:57:15.920 --> 00:57:20.760 But now that it's waking up, I think the space kind of the 780 00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.159 it's going to get interesting. Yeah, the code space that we're in now 781 00:57:23.559 --> 00:57:29.199 that WF is waking up into it's a little different than it when it went 782 00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:31.840 to sleep. Yeah, welcome to Welcome to the world. So I think 783 00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:37.199 this conversation is gonna keep getting more interesting. I don't think it's gonna I 784 00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:39.719 don't think the interesting things are gonna stop. No, I agree and I 785 00:57:39.800 --> 00:57:43.679 and again if it was clear, we would say good or bad. I 786 00:57:43.719 --> 00:57:45.880 don't know. Yeah, yeah, All I know is open source is different 787 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:50.480 now and and we're seeing more manifestations of it. Right. So Joe, 788 00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:54.519 what's in your inbox? What's next for you? Building a Maui app, 789 00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:59.960 building a new do it? Yeah, I know, learning how to build 790 00:58:00.079 --> 00:58:04.320 Mali app. That's that's mail a Yeah, use that m VVM framework. 791 00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:08.599 Oh I will I have and the Maui app accelerator. Yeah. Also good, 792 00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:13.079 very good. In fact, I have James Montamagne on speed dial, 793 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:19.360 so that's I highly recommend that although you can't expect him to answer no, 794 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.360 no, no, he's a busy guy. Should leave a lot of voicemail. 795 00:58:22.880 --> 00:58:27.320 Yeah, we missed you. Job well, Joe, thanks very much 796 00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.360 for spending this time with us, and it's great to hear that w p 797 00:58:30.559 --> 00:58:35.519 F is back and keep us posted, will you? I will, all 798 00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:59.760 right, and we'll talk to you next time on dot net rocks. Dot 799 00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:04.760 Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a 800 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:08.920 full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, 801 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:15.559 Connecticut, and of course in the cloud. Online at PWOP dot com. 802 00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:19.000 Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c k S 803 00:59:19.079 --> 00:59:23.599 dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access 804 00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:29.079 to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two 805 00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:31.679 thousand and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep 806 00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:36.400 us in business. Now, go write some code. See you next time. 807 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:52.400 You got javans and