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What is a fellow thermonuclear a efforts. I am Dan Vavalley coming at you

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with my certified fantabulous co host Grant
Who's we are joined by the also certified

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fantabulous, the one, the only
legendary, one of the people's favorites,

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Caitlyn Cooper of I'm just gonna call
it the galactic like famous basketball. She

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wrote, I don't know what the
is it a newsletter? I'm gonna cause

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a newsletter. Okay, it's a
blog about the basketball played by the Indiana

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Pacers. That is the sub official
subtitle basketball. She wrote a blog about

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basketball being played by the Indiana Pacers. Please go subscribe to that. The

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links are in the podcast and YouTube
descriptions. You can follow Caitlin on the

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Twitter machine as well at C two
Underscore. Cooper spelled egg zactly as it

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sounds. We were going to talk
about if you didn't guess already, the

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twenty twenty three twenty four Indiana Pacers
one of the most fascinating teams in the

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NBA. Think, and as people
have already started to catch on, there'll

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be a league past favorite, I
think for a lot of basketball fans.

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The first and most important question though, before we begin, Caitlin, how

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the heck are you doing? Doing
well? I'm always excited to get the

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return invite back to this particular podcast. I've told you this before, but

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I think you asked tremendous questions that
are very insightful about all thirty teams,

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and that's not easy to do.
So thank you for inviting me to come

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back. Thank you for coming back. I'm waiting for the year and I've

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said it's to Grant where You're just
gonna be like I'm too famous for the

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podcast, like we just I can't
do it. And I also said to

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Grant yesterday while we were recording,
doing the outline for the Pacers is among

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the hardest because one, I want
to ask questions that are on your level,

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but you've influenced mine, and I'm
sure Grant's opinions so much on the

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Pacers that it's hard to just not
regurgitate, like what we've just consumed from

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Caitlin, Grant, how are you
doing? Nobody cares, Dan, But

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thanks for not thanking me for coming
back, because we did one yesterday and

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I'm back contractually obligated on that piece
of paper you have not signed to return.

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Okay, well, I guess that's
true, but I'm here so contractually

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obligated or otherwise. Yeah, I
would echo what Dan said to Caitlyn.

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If I say something that you wrote
and pretend as if it's my opinion,

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just move past it. So we'll
just try to move past it. We

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are all happy to see, though, Grant, that you're set up is

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back to normal. As a peeple
in the court to editing, some of

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the shorts clips got a little difficult
because of your angle, and I was

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the idiot that kept these little descriptors
on that we needed, so if anyone

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cares about that, But Grant is
fully restored to his typical frame, So

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we're excited. Let's start here.
Caitlyn. Looking at last season, first,

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what was the driving force behind the
pre Haliburton injury success Where they were

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I think they were twenty three and
nineteen when he went out for that extended

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period of time, right, So
I don't know that I would necessarily term

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it as the driving force, but
I think it's important to say that a

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big contributing factor is that they were
catching some injury look early on at the

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season when they kind of stormed into
being the surprise team and the one five

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game stretch that I always kind of
like to look at and explaining that segment

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of the season. They won five
games in a row. So the first

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win, they played the Raptors.
No Siak, I'm no Fred van Vleet.

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And during the first half they're under
size, they're giving up there.

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The Raptors are going to the free
throw line over and over again, making

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a parade there. So after halftime
they start doubling all the bully drives.

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The Raptors go like three of twenty
one from three in the second half,

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which is a fair gamble given what
their roster limitations are as far as shooting,

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and the Pacers win that game.
So then they play the Hornets.

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It gets to be the fourth quarter, very close game. LaMelo Ball and

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Benedic Mathern are kind of exchanging scoring
barbs, going back and forth. The

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Pacers decide we're going to half court
trap LaMelo. The Hornets shoot like one

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of nine fourth quarter from three.
Then they play Houston. Eric Gordon is

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ethering them. They have to make
the adjustment to go switch to blitz No

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Kevin Porter Jr. Then they get
two wins over the Orlando Magic and Palo

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ban Caro and Wendell Carter Junior don't
play in either game, and they also

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went switched to blitz against Brons Wagner. So the story I'm kind of trying

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to paint here is the Pacers deserved
to get all those wins. They made

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smart adjustments that they were having to
go to very extreme defensive tactics in order

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to give themselves a chance to outscore
what was five opponents who didn't end up

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being in the playoff picture. So
that was kind of leading to some of

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the early season's success. And I
was a little bit of a Debbie downer

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because I was like, I think
that they're overachieving at this point in time.

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And then when they got into being
in December and they made the lineup

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change where they switched from Jalen Smith
at the starting power forward and went to

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Aaron E. Smith and we're playing
even smaller. They went eight in two

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right before Tyrese got hurt, and
I believed in that a little bit more

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because they were finally finding like other
ways to win. Tyrese was really finding

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his way and clutched time and in
closing time, he hit the game winner

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against the Miami Heat dealing with the
heat switches. They also beat Portland,

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where they held Portland to like two
points over the last six minutes. They

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played Charlotte again, and when in
the prior game Charlotte had stayed and dropped,

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this game, they showed the Pacers
a lot of different types of coverages

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and the Pacers adjusted, and I
was like, Hey, this is actually

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meaningful because they're showing that they can
win in more than one way. They

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played the Raptors again, they absolutely
crushed their bench, and then Tyrese obviously

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got hurt. So I think my
short answer here and kind of like summarizing

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their season is I don't think they
were quite as good as what they looked

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like during the very early portion of
the season. I think that Tyrese halibert

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and made meaningful strides, and then
by the end of the year when they

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shifted development mode, I also don't
think they were as bad as what they

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showed at the end of the year. So I think they're somewhere right in

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the middle, just based on comparing
themselves to last year. I'm going to

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blow up the outline already because something
you said really piqued my interest about the

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various different, you know, kitchen
sink type of tactics that the Pacers used

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during the stretcher you're talking about earlier
in the year where let's try X,

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Y and Z to get some defensive
success here, and you know, certain

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things worked and maybe those aren't sustainable. How do you see them being equipped

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going into the season, assume everybody's
healthy. I know it's hard to know

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certainly, like what some of the
front court rotation is going to look like.

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Do you see them having more of
like a base set up with the

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personnel they have to defend consistently?
You know, this is not going to

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be a top ten maybe not even
top half of the league defense, But

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what would you look at and point
too, as you know, ways that

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defensively, this could be sort of
a more solid, sustainable, consistent kind

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of outfit. Yeah, that's a
great question, and I think the top

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thing that you can kind of look
at to see where there might be changes

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to look at how they were using
Miles Turner, so like, just to

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give a matchup example, if they're
playing a team like Cleveland with last year's

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starting lineup Andrew Nemhard and aaron Nie
Smith would get a signed to the top

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two options, so one of them
would be assigned at Darius Garland, the

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other would go on Donovan Mitchell.
Then Tyrese Haliburton would typically most games be

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assigned to someone like Isaaca Coro,
where he's not having to defend on ball,

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he can conserve energy, and also
he's he still has a light ways

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to go with a screen navigation and
getting overpowered in those types of situations.

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So then you're also starting Buddy held, So that means the Buddy Heeld is

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going to be defending Jared Allen and
Miles Turner's defending Evan Mobley. So Buddy

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would then be switching on all the
ball screens. They would switch all the

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other screens, keep Miles Turner low
to try to prevent their being lobs.

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And because you have to have this
backstop, you have to have him his

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passive size around the basket all the
time because you're giving up so much size

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everywhere else. Now, like if
you're playing a lineup with Jarress Walker,

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for example, you have an extra
secondary rim protector. So now maybe you

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can put Miles Turner back at the
five spot where he's just swallowing up pick

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and rolls. Again, you can
play Jarress Walker as the lowman, use

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his off ball instincts. And I
think that you'll probably see from the Pacers,

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not in every matchup, because I'm
sure they'll adjust based on who their

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personnel is, because that's what this
coaching staff tends to do, but just

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an overall maybe a relaxation and what
they were able to do, especially just

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having more size at the fourth spot
where you're not having to constantly double the

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post and double other spots on the
floor where they're putting themselves into rotation and

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making it harder to box out into
rebound as well. So I think that's

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the main shift that you'll see.
Does Bruce Brown well, I mean he

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will, Like what type of impact
does Bruce Brown have on that defensive approach

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because he spends? And then is
there a trickle net like are they going

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to use him at the point of
attack as much as Denver did? And

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if they do, what kind of
a trickle down does that have on some

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of the other players on this roster
are gonna be playing alongside him? I

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would imagine to start games that you're
going to have to play Bruce Brown at

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the point of attack, because like
look at that Cleveland matchup again, I

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would anticipate that Andrew Nemhard and aaron
Nie Smith are not going to be starting,

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So you're looking at Tyree's, Benedict
Matherin, Bruce Brown, either Obie

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or Jars Walker, and Miles Turner. So in that arrangement, you're probably

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putting Tyres Haliburton on Max Struss,
which is going to be different than guarding

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Isaac Accorro. You're obviously gonna have
to track Max is a more threatening shooter,

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but Bruce is going to have to
defend either Darius or Donovan Mitchell,

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which means you don't have both Nemhard
and Nie Smith out there. Ben's gonna

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have to take one of those top
options, which they were doing a little

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bit more of that over the final
ten games of the year last year,

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and having him test that, We're
like, okay, Ben, we're putting

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you on Fred van Fleet from the
start of this game, and we're going

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to challenge you to do that,
or okay, Ben, or putting you

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on Jade and Ivy in the final
home game of the season and to see

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what you can do. And I
think that that was a pretty mixed bag.

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There's times where he can be a
stopper, like, oh, Shay,

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Gil just just hunted me in space
and I really held up and I

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gotta stop in a key moment of
a game. And there's other times where

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we're up in Toronto and you put
me on Fred Van Fleet. My screen

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navigation isn't good and I can't lay
switch and veer into the rollers. So

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now we've had to make the adjustment
where Aaron Nie Smith's guarding Purdle so we

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can start switching these ball screens.
And I'm being assigned to somebody else by

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the second half. So I think
that Bruce Brown's trickle down effect is He's

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going to be valuable because you need
to have a point of attack defender out

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there if Tyres and Ben are both
in the starting lineup. But it's gonna

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put more pressure on Benedict Matherin to
take on top assignments as well, because

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you don't have two people being neim
Hard and Nie Smith anymore out there.

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As as I look at this this, well what the roster for this coming

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season. There's a couple of unknowns, and you know Obi Toppin being one,

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but Matherin to me, and I'm
so curious about your opinion on this.

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Seems like such a swing player because
you know, he said and I've

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heard you say that the expectation is
that he's going to start. And just

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looking back at last season, you
know, nim Hard and Haliburton were if

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you're just looking at like who played
the most minutes together in the back court,

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those guys shared the court a lot. It sounds like if Matherin is

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out there, you're not. You're
certainly gonna hope that he can defend,

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and I guess we'll see and hope
that he can do a lot of the

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other things that don't involve, you
know, getting fouled and you know,

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being a shot creator for himself essentially. How do you I just I'm so

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fascinated by the Matherin Haliburton and then
Brown, I guess, and heeled comes

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off the bench. Maybe that's just
the push and pull that that's going to

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create on offense and defense is fascinating
to me. How do you see Matherin,

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you know, taking up some of
these new tasks that he's just gonna

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have to you know, the defensive
responsibility will be bigger, right, I

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assume, and he's going to be
asked to do just more than score.

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I would imagine if he's going to
be a starter and not what I thought

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last year was a really effective,
you know, prototypical six man spark plug

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type of scorer. Yeah, when
you consider swapping Buddy out for Ben,

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it's like if the question was in
the short term that the Pacers just want

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to win games, I think the
clear answer would be you would be starting

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Buddy healed because if you look at
the numbers, like they did narrowly outscore

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opponents with Buddy and Tyree's both on
the floor, When either just one of

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them was on the floor without the
other, they got wrecked. Like both

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cases. If Tyrese was out there
without Buddy, I think they got outscored

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by like seven point ninety nine.
If Buddy was out there without Tyrese,

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I think they got outscored by like
six point three. So the reasons for

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that, Like tyres is the engine
of what they do in transition, but

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Buddy is very much an extension of
it. He led the league and made

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transition threes last year per game.
He led the league in attempts between twenty

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two and eighteen seconds on the shot
clock. His willingness to run off of

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makes and missus and be able to
stop and pop is obviously very valuable.

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And then also in the half court, the tension that he provides as a

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ghost screener, like one of the
main tactics if Tyrese gets a switch,

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as they will use Buddy to go
ghost that switch. He provides tension as

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a stack screener. He just knows
where to move in tandem with Halibert and

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they have a real wavelength. That
was the number one assist combo in the

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NBA on made threes. So I
think that you would still lean Buddy there

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if you were just solely trying to
win games. But in the long term,

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the pacers need to know by the
end of next year. I like

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that you said how critical of a
year this is going to be, because

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they need to know it's a critical
piece of this core. Is he a

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foundational piece or does he top out
as more of a six man? And

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like it's gonna be interesting to watch
because his usage swung pretty wildly, Like

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it was like nineteen percent when he
played with Tyrese versus like twenty six percent

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when he didn't. So the arrangement
made sense last year, I felt to

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bring him off the bench, and
also just the accountability of it, like

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they weren't. They made him earn
those minutes and earned that by the end

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of the season, and like really
held him accountable defensively that if he made

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mistakes on that end of the floor, like it just playing time wasn't unconditional.

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There was an earned element to it, and I think that there was

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value to that. But they need
to know by the end of last year.

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Next year how he fits with Tyrese
and I think that that means starting

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him, So it will be interesting
to watch, like if because of what

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some of the limitations are in his
game, if they're also starting Bruce Brown

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and they're also starting Obie Topp,
and that's going to be a difference than

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when your middle three starters were Buddy
Nemharden Yi Smith. As far as like

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half court spacing, and they already
weren't a great half court offensive team last

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year. I think they were like
twenty second according to Clean the Glass.

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So if Ben sees more defenders loading
up on his drives because of that,

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and he also struggles he already struggles
with passing out of drives. How much

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patients are they going to have rather
than being like, Okay, this isn't

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working, We're gonna go to buddy
heeled like I think you're gonna have to

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exercise patients. Yeah, what what
Matherin? So with Matherin you say,

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and I think this is right that
the Pacers need to know what they have.

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Sort of up and paraphrasing, but
what singular skill do you think the

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Pacers would be most encouraged were they
to see him show it in season two

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because they're you know, he's just
watching him play. He's he's a a

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quirky catch and shoot player, Like
he doesn't seem to like it, but

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he has such other innate skills with
you know, drawing contact and and there's

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there's so much there. What what
do you think the Pacers are you know,

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maybe behind closed doors or is it
obvious like they really need him to

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show this to feel good about going
forward. I actually think it's like three

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main things. If I had to
pick one. I liked that you said

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that he's a quirky catch and shoot
player because he's very wired to catch and

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drive and spot up situations. And
I think he still needs to grow in

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his reed of closeouts because he started
last year shooting the ball at a pretty

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good level and then after you know, about midway through, that really tapered

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off. I think he finished it
around like thirty between thirty one and thirty

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three percent on jump shots. So
he started seeing shorter closeouts. And when

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he sees the shorter closeouts, he
has a tendency he wants to play out

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a triple threat, so his go
to is to jab right and to put

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the ball on the floor of his
left He drives left on like sixty percent

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of his drives, and he'll do
that even when he doesn't see a close

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out. And this is why I
think that he's gonna see change and how

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he gets guarded next year, because
if he's not hitting the three at a

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decent level and then he's automatically driving
to his left. I wrote a piece

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on Patreon where I tracked all of
his passes, skip passes, and passes

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to the right side of the floor
from the left side of the floor.

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He never made one with his left
hand, so at Summer League you can

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see times where they were really loading
up on the drives because he loves to

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rip the ball baseline and go to
his left. If you bring the second

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help defender to him, he ranked
like in the bottom five percent of past

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percentage among players who average at least
five drives per game, So there's already

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reason to do that, and then
if the spacings less, there's going to

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be even more added reason to do
that. So I think just shooting the

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inflow shots that come to him without
double clutching or kind of playing with his

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food would be really big for him
because that all allow him to beat the

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first level of the defense while you're
still waiting for his passing to develop,

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because I think that's going to take
time because I think some of its skill

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based and some of its processing based
in terms of him recognizing where kickout avenues

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are. So I think the shooting
is number one. But if you were

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to ask the Pacers, and I
think Jad Buchanan even touched on this on

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the broadcast at Summer League, they
need to see him his shot go back

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where it was at the beginning of
last season. They want him to pass

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the ball when he gets to the
rim and recognize winning needs to pass the

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ball, and then defensively, they
need him to make stride in most areas.

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There's just not a lot of things
you can list right now where he's

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like really strong defensively, but he's
so special at drawing contact. I do

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want people like, if you didn't
watch the Pacers a lot last year.

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Over the last five seasons, there's
only been five rookies who have averaged over

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five free throw times per game,
and these are high level players. It's

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Zion Palin, Bert, Caro Mathern, Luca and Trey Young. So that's

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the list. So he's very good, He's very flexible in the air.

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He definitely bends into contact. It's
a it's a gift, and it's not

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one that the Pacers have had an
abundant supply for a very long time.

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So you sort of alluded to this
are earlier. But if the continued investment

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in Mathren's development is going to be
so stark, You've now added Bruce Brown,

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you have Tyrese Haliburton, Buddy Healed, and Andrew Nemhard. It seems

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like one of them is gonna,
you know, kind of suffer from this.

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And I think it's easy to say, well, Buddy Heals about to

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be a free agent. He might
not be happy coming off the bench anyway

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will be him that's marginalized. But
also because of his shooting and the way

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this team is built, you wonder
if he might be a little bit more

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important than Nemhard. You see either
one of them seeing their roles be put

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in jeopardy or be diminished significantly because
of how invested the Pacers are, again

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not just in mathin but they did
just pay Bruce Brown a lot of money.

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The one that concerns me the most
is the potential for Andrew Nemhard's role

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to get crunched, because I think
with Buddy it's most logical for him to

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be the first player off the bench
and come into the game because of what

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his wavelength with Haliburton is. I
suspect that he will come in early and

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that Ben might be the first player
out just so that he can have more

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room to stretch his legs, and
because defensively there's going to be more insulation

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for both of them potentially in bench
lineups if you're talking about you know,

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nem or t J. McConnell,
Jariss, and then whoever the five person

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ends up being. But with Andrew, it's interesting because if like obviously two

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game sample sizes of Summer League are
immensely you know, meaningful, and tell

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you everything about how a player is
going to play the next year. But

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Andrew was very impressed in those two
games, And the way you can tell

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how impressive he was is by what
the offense looked like when he was no

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longer playing. It was very rough
them getting into their sets, and I

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just thought he was very comfortable moseying
to his spots. He plays slow and

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like the best possible way when he's
manipulating the pick and roll, and defensively

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he was quite good. And you
could tell this by how often you could

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hear their bench saying good Drew,
good Drew. When he was er switching

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and really navigating out at the point
of attack, I think he adds a

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lot. But then, like what
you just said, at the starting lineup,

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like Andrew's reward for that play at
Summer League might be going from being

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a second round pick who became a
key starter largely because of his defense.

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Too. Now I've shown really good
reads offensively, to the point where I

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felt after one quarter at Summer League
he had shown enough. He played the

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entire first quarter and he didn't need
to play anymore. He did but he

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didn't need to play anymore to potentially, you know, depending upon what they

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do with t J McConnell, you
go from being a starter to maybe an

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off ball guard in the second unit. And Buddy heelds the sixth man,

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so I think he's probably the most
likely can to get crunched. And if

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I were in charge, I would
be finding a way for him to play

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out of ball screens and run the
second unit. That's what I would be

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doing. But we'll see how the
Pacers see that. We've talked a lot

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about the guards, and I think
because some of the give and take of

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the various options, they're so interesting. I don't know that we would be

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having to make so many well what
if this guy or that guy decisions if

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Obie Toppin weren't on the roster.
And that's the other big offseason acquisition,

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and he's part of the reason I
think the Pacers may not be as small

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as they were as often as they
were last year. He's a really interesting

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player topping I think probably the consensus
is he was not set up to succeed

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with the Knicks, just with the
way their roster was and the things he

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was asked to do. I think, what do you think about his fit

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specifically next to Miles Turner and what
he you know, if this works,

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what our X, Y and Z
that will that will happen? And if

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it doesn't work, where did the
hiccups come from? You think with that

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pairing? Yeah, I mean,
I think the biggest shift for Obie will

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obviously be that he's going into playing
in a scheme that ranked you know,

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second in time to shoot after a
made shot. He loves the league out

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He's going to be going to a
team that plays and wants to play in

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transition frequency. He and Tyres have
an existing relationship off the court. I

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think that Tyres is very excited to
play with him. And also just from

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the Knicks standpoint, he's never played
with a big who can step out to

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the perimeter. He's played with Mitchell
Robinson, he's played with Netherlands, He's

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played with Taj Gibson. I looked
up and for his entire career he's attempted

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twenty seven shots as the role man
moving to the basket. So I said

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that on whatever I can't remember which
I think he might have been the dunked

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on podcast you did, and I
was like it was believable, but I

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was just like appalled, Yeah,
because I mean there were times where he

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did roll, but it would be
like you'd be watching he and Mitchell Robinson

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both rolling off a double and like
yeah, and like that might cause some

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confusion, but like he wasn't often
the person touching the ball in those situations.

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So I do think there's definitely a
tyrese halibert in effect. You can

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see the swing and Turner's two point
percentage when he plays with tyrese versus when

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he doesn't. I think that that
will be really good for Obie. Like

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I said, the spacing with Miles, the transition frequency, like I think

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the environment is all set up.
Like last year, Obi set fewer screens

356
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,440
than ever, he attempted more threes
than ever, and had fewer paint touches

357
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than ever. That's not going to
be the case with the Pacers. What

358
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I wonder is is if Obi has
like a quote unquote breakout year, whatever

359
00:22:23,759 --> 00:22:26,319
that means for him in this context, I'm not saying he's going to be

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like an All Star or something for
the Pacers. I do think he could

361
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have a very nice season for them, and that we'll be talking about him

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in a different context than we are
right now. Is what will that mean

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for Miles Turner and what will it
mean for Jaris Walker because and Miles's case,

364
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like, yes, he can space
out to three, but I think

365
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what he showed last year is that
he's better as a five being defended by

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fives. Over the last two years, when he's defended by centers, he

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shoots forty percent from three. When
he's defended by forwards, he shoots like

368
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thirty two percent from three. This
is at a marginalizing effect on him throughout

369
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his career, going back to win
even before Sabonus when it was Thad,

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they'd play games against Philadelphia and Ben
Simmons would guard Miles and Joel Embid would

371
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guard thatd because Dad was around the
basket, and then that would mean,

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oh, we don't want Ben Simmons
to switch on to the ball. So

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Miles is standing in the corner and
he's kind of made it clear that he

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isn't super happy with that type of
a role in the past tense. You

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know the article about I'm just a
glorified role player here, so you know,

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if Obi Toppin isn't just attempting twenty
seven shots is the role man and

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he's the person rolling to the basket. That means Miles is going to be

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doing more of the stuff that he
was doing in the past. So what

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sort of effect that will have?
Like if you're going after somebody at the

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four spot and it's like Pascal Siakam, I think you accept, Okay,

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Miles Turner might take a step back
here, but we're getting an All NBA

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caliber player if it's you know,
because Obie or Jarris's shot isn't falling as

383
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well, and there's cross matching like
what happened with Jalen Smith last year to

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the point where they ended up needing
to change the starting lineup because it was

385
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disrupting their offense. Then I think
it's a little bit different calculus. And

386
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also if Obie breaks out, like
you just drafted Jarress Walker at spot number

387
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,839
eight, so you know, how
does he ascend and move up the food

388
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,759
chain so to speak? But I
think the environment set up for Obie Topping

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to have a good season. What
I've been told by people who are much

390
00:24:12,839 --> 00:24:18,759
martyr than I that I'm too low
on Jarress Walker. I don't understand the

391
00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:23,799
theory of him on offense, and
I've heard you talk about how maybe he

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00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:26,680
could play and you've been very clear
not comparing him to Draymond Green, but

393
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he could play some of that like
facilitator role. What do you envision for

394
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,680
him, what does he want do
well on offense? And to what do

395
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:40,079
you envision for him offensively on this
patience team, whether it's lineups or specific

396
00:24:40,079 --> 00:24:42,119
functions that they're going to try and
apply to him. I will say this,

397
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I don't think that what he was
doing in summer League was a good

398
00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:49,480
reflection of what he does well on
offense. He was taking he did not

399
00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:52,200
shoot the ball well. He had
to have a loose body removed from his

400
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,160
elbow. They announced that a week
after, so I don't know how much

401
00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:57,880
that was affecting his jump shot.
He shot like eight to forty on jump

402
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shots. And then when Andrew and
Ben were no longer playing, they didn't

403
00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:04,039
really have anybody else to run the
offense. So it was a lot of

404
00:25:04,079 --> 00:25:07,119
point jariss and ways that I just
do not think you're going to see during

405
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:11,319
the regular season next year when you
have Tyrese and Andrew and t J McConnell.

406
00:25:11,759 --> 00:25:15,200
And then like you could also hear
during the Dallas game when Jared Dudley

407
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,480
was coaching, he was yelling like
shrink anytime Jars had it on the perimeter,

408
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:22,960
and they were sinking in off of
everybody except for Ben Sheppard. So

409
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,599
that was just making his overall shop
profile a lot more difficult. So his

410
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,519
efficiency looked pretty poor from those four
games. I do think that he has

411
00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,559
more to show there. I don't
know that I necessarily think he's going to

412
00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:37,359
be like a high volume, you
know, floor spacer, and that was

413
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,160
kind of what I wrote in my
piece about him. During the pre draft

414
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:45,000
processes, I watched how teams guarded
him because that's the true measure of spacing,

415
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,759
is how you get guarded when you're
not shooting, and that was showing

416
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,759
up a lot against Virginia's pack line. But I think how you envision him

417
00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:55,640
is like what you mentioned there when
I made the comparisons to Draymond, like

418
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,640
he did get to do on occasion
at Summer League. The sets were like

419
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,440
you're setting us dagger. Maybe Ben
Shepherd's the person who's going to fly off

420
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,920
the stagger. He curls the first
pick with Jared's setting it, and then

421
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,799
Jared's would turn around and fly off
the second, get the ball, fake

422
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,880
a handoff back to that guy,
and then turn the ball downhill. He

423
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:18,119
has a very sneaky keeper. He's
good at the fake handoffs that Draymond likes

424
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,720
to use against switches, which I
think could pair really well with Tyrese Halibert

425
00:26:21,759 --> 00:26:25,160
and as a pull up threat.
And then he also has some short role

426
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,759
chops in his bag and making reads
there. Of course, it helps when

427
00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:32,279
you're playing with somebody like Tyrese who
can shoot off the dribble. That's not

428
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:34,680
going to be super available to him
with TJ McConnell as the point guard when

429
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,960
people are ducking under, but that's
something that he can do. I think

430
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,559
that he processes the game at a
high level. And what I said before

431
00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:47,359
on our other podcast about liking guys
who can keep playing when plays break down,

432
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,279
that's something that Jared's can do.
I think you can use him as

433
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:52,839
a DHO operator and then I'd just
like to see him more as a screener,

434
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,920
like we basically didn't get to see
that at Summer League. I think

435
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,559
he finished one shot as the role
man because Andrew wasn't playing anymore and he

436
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,440
was having to be the pick and
roll ball handler, Like there were times

437
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,960
he was dribbling off a double drag
and assisting Isaiah Thomas at Isaiah Thomas Isaiah

438
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,400
Jackson at the rim. So like
it was just a lot different role that

439
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,440
I don't really think is what's going
to be seen from him a lot during

440
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,480
the regular season. On the other
end, for Walker, you know,

441
00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:21,759
we started out talking about kind of
the different levers the Pacers may need to

442
00:27:21,799 --> 00:27:25,640
pull to kind of figure out what
the defensive matchups need to be with sort

443
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,799
of suboptimal and smallish, you know, guarden wing personnel. Is it unfair

444
00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:33,079
it's a sort of hope that Jared's
is just someone that can kind of come

445
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,680
in and put out the fire,
like because his defensive versatility is a huge,

446
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,599
you know, part of his makeup. And is it unfair to think,

447
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,839
like, well, if we've got
a like a shooting guard that's getting

448
00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:47,720
loose and we just can't do anything, can you throw him at someone like

449
00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:52,400
that? Or is that not quite
you know, realistic. The Pacers,

450
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,000
when they talked about its pre draft
workout, talked about how impressed they were

451
00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:02,559
when he was guarding their assistant coach
Pargo space and in isolations. I think

452
00:28:02,599 --> 00:28:04,759
that I land on the side that
he's better at switching out to like two

453
00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:10,440
threes and fours. So when they
played Oklahoma City, he played some minutes

454
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:12,759
at the five. He was defending
Chet home Grin and they were having him

455
00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:15,759
switch out, and I didn't think
that went very well on either side of

456
00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:21,240
the pick and roll. Chet had
a massive advanced size advantage over their guards

457
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,880
and was basically just dropping the ball
in over the top and on the perimeter.

458
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,759
Jaris was giving up some step back
threes. He wasn't playing as close

459
00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:32,440
to the ball I think as you
would like. But I think in general

460
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:37,400
it's always tough to expect a lot
from rookies on the defensive end right away.

461
00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,200
But I just think it's his instincts
are just really good as a help

462
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:45,079
defender, and his hands are so
quick, Like he gets away with gambles

463
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:48,680
that other people just like it would
be so damaging to your defense, but

464
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:52,680
for him it works like he can
go block shots from the wing and it's

465
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,920
fine an emergency rotation, or he
can shoot passing lanes and it works out

466
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,400
for him. So the Pacers bar
is so low at the fourth spot from

467
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,720
last year that I find it hard
to think that he isn't going to provide

468
00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:11,799
some level of improvement right away.
I'm fascinated by this team's frontline rotation because

469
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,200
you've talked about it, and it
seems like the assumption is Obi Toppin will

470
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,160
start next to Turner. They're clearly
invested in Jars Walker. But when you

471
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,240
mentioned the concern about we saw a
bunch of different stuff for Miles Turner last

472
00:29:23,279 --> 00:29:26,519
year. Like he was able to
set more screens, we saw him get

473
00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:32,200
more interior touches. We saw him
have more slips and cuts to the basket

474
00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:36,880
when you're describing like what his offensive
role was, if you're worried about limiting

475
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:38,160
it, it doesn't feel like it's
a great fit for Jarss Walker. We

476
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,960
don't know if it's a good fit
for Obi Toppin. Does that increase the

477
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,559
importance of Jawn Smith? If you're
still invested in Turner, do we read

478
00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,559
into well, maybe they won't use
Obie topping as the screener so often because

479
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:51,279
he did get up. I think
it was like eight and a half three

480
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:53,880
point attempts per thirty six minutes last
year. How do you sort of just

481
00:29:53,920 --> 00:30:00,200
see that frontline hodgepods after Turner sort
of shaking out. I mean, Obi

482
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,039
Toppin did say that in conversation with
Rick Carlisle that he's been told he's gonna

483
00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:07,599
play around the basket more, which
I mean relative to what he was in

484
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,960
doing in New York. Even if
it split as even he is going to

485
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,759
be playing around the basket more.
And ideally, like you would have two

486
00:30:14,759 --> 00:30:17,920
bigs on the floor who could roll
or who could pop. So if Obie

487
00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:22,119
shot can carry over to a degree, then it's maybe it is that Fors

488
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,079
will continue guarding Obie Topping and then
they can both do a little bit of

489
00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:29,759
everything and it's less predictable about who's
gonna roll or who's gonna pop on a

490
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,599
double drag. With regards to Jalen, I just kind of think about the

491
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:38,559
backup five spot, and it's curious
because a different guy kind of pairs well

492
00:30:38,599 --> 00:30:42,880
with a different person off the bench. So like in Jalen's case, he

493
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,519
did not shoot the ball well.
Like I think of the people there was

494
00:30:45,519 --> 00:30:48,279
like one hundred and sixty nine players
who attempted a one hundred and fifty catch

495
00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,400
and shoot threes last year, and
Jalen's conversion rate was the worst out of

496
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,480
all of them, but at least
he does shoot, like the positioning of

497
00:30:56,519 --> 00:30:59,559
it does matter. You don't have
to tether him to the dunker spot.

498
00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:03,799
So I think that might let Jars
do more things that we weren't getting to

499
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:07,119
see at Summer League when he's playing
with Isaiah Jackson and he's playing with Oscar

500
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,240
Tacibway and those guys are occupying that
space in the middle of the floor,

501
00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,559
So there might be some more versatility
to see what jareds can do offensively.

502
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:22,559
But Andrew Nemhard plays pairs really well
with Isaiah Jackson as a rollman. Andrew

503
00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:26,799
assisted him more at the rim than
anybody on the roster. The numbers pair

504
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,400
this out when you look at them
as a pick and roll combination. They

505
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,519
produce more points per direct pick between
Andrew and Isaiah than Andrew and Jalen.

506
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,680
So it kind of depends on what
your priorities are there. If you want

507
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,920
to base the second unit's offense around
the Andrew Nemhard Isaiah Jackson pick and roll

508
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,720
combination, that I guess JAREDS is
going to have to figure it out.

509
00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:45,000
You're going to be seeing what he
is is more of a stretch. For

510
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,200
if you're more concerned with developing jars, then I think you would lean toward

511
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:52,160
Jalen or maybe you know, even
Daniel Tis. I do think Tys is

512
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,359
better right now as a player than
Isaiah and Jalen. But can he play

513
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,599
in a fast paced scheme? Really
know? Because he only played like seven

514
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,279
games last year, I didn't see
enough to know if he can hold up

515
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:07,960
trying to do that. So fever
World Cup champion, Yeah, gold medalist,

516
00:32:08,039 --> 00:32:15,039
Daniel Tyson. You need that version
of Daniel Tyson next year. We've

517
00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:16,960
gone a long time without really talking
about Tyrese Halibert, and I don't know

518
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:23,640
that we even really make for you, by the way, Grant, I

519
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,759
mean, just because I think we're
all in agreement, and anyone that has

520
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,079
watched much of him agrees it just
offensively, he's you know, special.

521
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:37,240
But for me, having watched probably
more Warriors games than any other team over

522
00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:38,440
the last you know, fifteen,
well of my whole life, if we're

523
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,960
being honest, the one thing that's
really interesting to me is the way that

524
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,279
his rise is sort of paralleling Steph
Curry's in one specific respect, which is

525
00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:52,480
he gets kind of picked on by
defense by opposing offenses and a huge you

526
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,000
know, you're never going to take
him off the floor obviously, because that's

527
00:32:55,039 --> 00:32:59,640
just a non starter. So the
Warriors, you know, years ago,

528
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,440
it's quaint to think about it now, but like, oh, pre switching,

529
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,119
we can pre switch, like that's
a thing, and you know the

530
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,279
things they've done to hide Curry evolved
from there. What can the Pacers do?

531
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:13,680
Do they need to do? They
need to quote unquote hide Tyrese?

532
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:16,759
Do they you know this isn't new
to them. I mean you saw it

533
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:21,160
last year where he was, you
know, attacked quite a bit. How

534
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,759
do you expect that to shake out
this year when you know, maybe they

535
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,599
still don't have great options to just
like stick him on someone non threatening and

536
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:31,920
hope nobody notices. It was curious
early on in the season because I mentioned

537
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:37,640
that game against the Raptors when Fred
and Siakam were available, and everything from

538
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,519
the Raptors was like bully drive after
bully drive, just getting a mismatch in

539
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:43,039
the post, which is kind of
how their offense is a lot of the

540
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:46,319
time when you think about it.
But it was surprising how little they were

541
00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:50,920
going at Tyrese in that particular game, and I was like, I'm surprised

542
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,359
at how infrequently teams are doing this. Then when he came back from injury,

543
00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:59,799
it was like a feeding frenzy.
Like they played Dallas in particular,

544
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:04,720
Luca was going after Tyres frequently and
even it did so much about his defense,

545
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,519
which is certainly a part of it, but like wearing him down as

546
00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:13,280
the transition engine, there's an added
incentive to be doing this, so like

547
00:34:13,519 --> 00:34:16,679
Utah, like Colin Sexton was calling
him up into picks, Lori Markenen was

548
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,239
hunting him in the post. It
was like every possession, it felt like

549
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,559
in the crunch time of that game. And you talk about pre switching,

550
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,840
like this is where we're at.
Buddy healed, gets pre switched into picks

551
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,840
so that Tyrese doesn't have to guard
them, and again, like that's a

552
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,400
part to preserve how important Tyres is. But when you feel more comfortable with

553
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,960
Buddy doing that than you do with
Tyrese, like that kind of says a

554
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,760
lot. That's a bit of a
nine one one call. So the Pacers

555
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,320
were already doing like a lot of
things last year. I feel they would

556
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,960
pre switch him out of actions.
You would see them do scram switches to

557
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,519
get him off of post mismatches.
They did switch to blitz type stuff that

558
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:53,800
was typically more with bigs, but
there were occasions where like, Okay,

559
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,199
we're just gonna get the ball out
of that guy's hands. Maybe we can

560
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,760
dictate who's going to beat us from
there. And then the main thing I

561
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,639
mentioned Luca is that if there was
a favorable switch with Tyrese, it was

562
00:35:04,679 --> 00:35:07,400
almost like the paciers went into a
two three zone because the other person at

563
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,760
the top would immediately be at the
nail providing passive help. And if their

564
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,840
guy cut, they didn't follow the
cutter, So that was another aspect of

565
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,519
it. I think it's just gonna
be like switch and shrink, honestly,

566
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,880
like and just having guys who are
better getting in and out from those types

567
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,559
of situations, having more lateral size
and links to be rotating out of those

568
00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:29,119
situations. And then also like an
area that he could improve that I think

569
00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:31,599
is headgen recover, like just don't
give up that switch. I could just

570
00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:35,599
be more active to prevent it from
even happening in the first place. But

571
00:35:35,639 --> 00:35:38,119
I mean, it's definitely a thing
like there's a reason why it's gotten brought

572
00:35:38,159 --> 00:35:40,400
up, and it's something he's acknowledged, like he's like to be honest,

573
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,119
like I think guys need to get
stronger. Guys overpower me a lot,

574
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,920
and if I'm going to hold people
on this team accountable, like it starts

575
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,320
with me. So Tyres is always
very self reflective and he's probably about as

576
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,639
hard on himself as anybody is.
So we'll see when the season starts if

577
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:58,880
he's made more strides there. I
didn't see a lot of significant ones on

578
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,440
ball at the World Cup. Obviously
we all saw the play where Oaps got

579
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,000
the corner three when he was trying
to trail through the off ball picks.

580
00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:07,960
So some of the screen navigation is
still gonna have to get better. But

581
00:36:07,039 --> 00:36:10,440
I do anticipate that, you know, for a team that was icing a

582
00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:15,440
lot of pick and rolls that was
you know, doing a lot more peel

583
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,960
switching, next thing, kind of
more complex defensive tactics, that there's going

584
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,880
to be more funneling to Miles Turner. So we'll see how that if that

585
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:29,079
helps out Tyres at all. More
viewer switching, those types of tactics,

586
00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:31,800
I think there will be a switch
in what they do. Have you noticed,

587
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,679
as someone that's watched, you know, every possession, does he also

588
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,119
just talking about Haliburton, get the
you know, the second he gets off

589
00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:44,119
the ball, the Curry treatment,
which is we're gonna grab, we're gonna

590
00:36:44,119 --> 00:36:46,280
hold because we're trying to wear you
down because you're so valuable to off the

591
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,840
offense. Does he get some of
that same treatment or I guess it's different

592
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,960
because nobody's off the ball running around
as much as Curry as well. Right,

593
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,239
And that's actually an area where I
wrote when I did a thing about

594
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,519
Team USA and like things that I
had noticed about him during the friendlieses,

595
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:04,920
I still think that's an area where
he could actually improve. Is that in

596
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,599
certain circumstances because he has young growth
against switches offensively, But like one thing

597
00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:14,079
that I like that didn't happen a
lot last year. And the reason I

598
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:16,880
bring this up is because like,
if you play the heat, it's much

599
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,119
better for the pacers not to be
having you know, and most teams not

600
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:22,800
to be trying to attack a switch
head on. It gets bam out of

601
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,639
bio. Right, So like if
Tyrese gets that switch and then gives it

602
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,000
the ball to like Andrew Nemart,
and then Nemard intentionally drives at baym.

603
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:36,480
The natural inclination for most bigs is
to help off and on the drive,

604
00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,239
and then Andrew gives the ball back
to Tyrese, and Tyrese can attack that

605
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,400
switch through a close out then and
get into the defense and make a play

606
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,880
there. So for Tyrese's sake,
I feel like he could still be better

607
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,400
at sliding into passing windows at times. And that's why I was watching those

608
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,760
minutes with him and Jalen Brunson fairly
closely when they were happening in the World

609
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,719
Cup because I feel sometimes like even
just like on a basic like baseline drive,

610
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,480
baseline drift, he'll kind stand behind
his defender. So to answer your

611
00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:06,039
question, I don't think there's quite
as much grabbing because Tyrese is willing to

612
00:38:06,039 --> 00:38:10,000
playoff ball. He doesn't completely deactivate
like Trey Young, but he isn't as

613
00:38:10,119 --> 00:38:15,320
active moving as what Steph Curry is
to be getting grabbed in that type of

614
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:20,639
way. I know you've focused on
this, but in the macro doesn't seem

615
00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:23,039
like there's been a big focus because
their transition attack with such a bear on

616
00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:28,800
offense last year on just how bad
the half court offense was was. They

617
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,440
were consistently in the bottom ten,
like even before the Tyree's injury. Now

618
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:36,599
you look at this roster and it's
okay, they add Bruce Brown's craftiness,

619
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:37,920
but it still feels like they have
a lot of you know, their starting

620
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:43,559
lineup's gonna have three wild card shooters
essentially if you have Obi mathin and Bruce

621
00:38:43,559 --> 00:38:47,400
Brown in. There are there any
aside from shooting or what about the shooting?

622
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,760
Like, what are the swing factors
into this team improving their half court

623
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,440
offense from last season? I think
that some of it from a half court

624
00:38:55,559 --> 00:39:04,239
standpoint last year was that they were
not running super intricate sets like they with

625
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,920
a young roster. They were running
more simplistic things, and they wanted to

626
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,719
teach those guys to play in flow
game and play random and I think that

627
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,800
that naturally comes with some clunk,
and it comes with some clunk when like

628
00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:21,559
Ben isn't the highest field player,
like that's still something he's learning how to

629
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:27,280
do. So if you're not running
more complicated actions and then you're teaching young

630
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,440
guys how to play, for lack
of better term, I think that that

631
00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:31,960
led to some of the inefficiency on
that end of the floor, and then

632
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:37,199
also like they just didn't have a
lot of secondary playmakers. If the first

633
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,360
action didn't work, it would end
up with Tyrese having to pound the ball

634
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,400
and pick and roll, which isn't
the worst gamble. He's a very good

635
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,880
pick and roll creator, as we
all know. But I think that Bruce

636
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,320
Brown will help in that regard,
and that an underrated aspect of his game

637
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,599
is that he can be a connective
passer. He can play out of pick

638
00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:57,280
and roll s, and Andrew Nemarkin
as well. But like, just having

639
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,920
more guys on the floor who are
able to continue advance images and get you

640
00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:04,920
to the next action, I think
will help them in the half court though,

641
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,280
I, as you said, I
do have some concerns about the spacing

642
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:12,639
and what happens if teams are shrinking
in off of that. On the central

643
00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:17,079
aspect of Tyrese and the initial primary
pick and real action, this gets away

644
00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:22,320
from some of the tactical stuff we've
been talking about. But you know,

645
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,920
and we've already mentioned his name,
so Pascal Siakam was someone that was kind

646
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,639
of loosely connected as a let's call
him a person interest. I guess at

647
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:34,199
various points. You know, certainly
we speculated about it last year, and

648
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:36,280
then there was some talk around the
draft. I want to say, I'm

649
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:42,039
terrible remembering that kind of thing,
But do you think the Pacers are because

650
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:46,079
that would be sort of run a
little counter to what you envision this team

651
00:40:46,119 --> 00:40:51,000
being is sort of gradually built and
we're looking for organic growth and that type

652
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,320
of thing. But to go swing
a move for an all NBA type of

653
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:58,239
player, you know, who fits, in my opinion like phenomenally well just

654
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,280
as a hypothetical, but from a
team building perspective, it's kind of incongruous

655
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:06,159
with what and he's doing. Like, do you think a move like that

656
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,159
is what the Pacers you know,
intend to do at some point, whether

657
00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:13,960
it's Siakam or not. Like are
they keeping the powder dry, as we

658
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:15,119
like to say it, to go, you know, make a move like

659
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:20,480
that or is that just a little
too like quick fixie and you know,

660
00:41:20,559 --> 00:41:23,360
risky obviously with free agency being you
know, right around the corner too.

661
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,559
I think the way that I summarize
what they did this offseason is that they're

662
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:32,039
trying to make a push for the
playoffs while also maintaining flexibility to build around

663
00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:37,480
Haliber in long term. And the
Bruce Brown contract is as malleable as he

664
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:40,280
is as a player, So the
fact that they have that team option means

665
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:44,000
that he you know, he might
be included in a trade as early as

666
00:41:44,039 --> 00:41:47,320
this year. That would be counter
to how the Pacers typically operate When they

667
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,480
sign someone to a contract, they
like to keep them through the first year.

668
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,320
They say, like, we don't
sign guys to be trade assets necessarily.

669
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:59,960
But you know, I do think
between Og and and Obi and paths

670
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,920
scal Siakam, I would think that
Og would be your top priority there because

671
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,360
he is younger and because I truly
think he might be the most positionalist defender

672
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,360
in the NBA, and I think
he would solve a lot of things for

673
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,320
them that he would be the top
priority. But Pascal also, like what

674
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,719
I said before, like I don't
have as many concerns about Miles Turner taking

675
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:22,480
a step back if you're adding an
all NBA caliber power forward who you know

676
00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:24,280
you could make those arguments with Sabonis
too, Like there wasn't a lot of

677
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,920
reason to take possessions out of Sabonis's
hands to give them to Miles Turner.

678
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,880
But the difference being is so Bonus
was not going to be able to help

679
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:36,760
Miles Turner defensively the same way that
Pascal Siakam will and just overall on their

680
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,519
defense. So to have somebody who
can create their own shot and create for

681
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:42,800
others at the four spot, I
think would be big for the patients.

682
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,800
But I think it's almost more telling
that there was a quote around the draft

683
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:51,039
where Chad Buchanan and I'm paraphrasing here
effectively said that, like, you know,

684
00:42:51,119 --> 00:42:55,159
they looked at potential opportunities to move
the number seven pick for guys who

685
00:42:55,159 --> 00:43:00,519
were on expiring detail the contracts.
We can connect the dots there, and

686
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:02,320
that you know, without knowing if
those guys were going to want to sign

687
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:07,400
an extension that's too risky for them
as a small market team, which I

688
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:08,840
agree it would be very risky.
And I'm not saying that they need to

689
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,480
do that before the first year of
Tyres Haliburton's contract has even come into play.

690
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,159
But if you're not willing right now
to bet on Tyrese Haliburton and bet

691
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:21,719
on your ability to win games by
getting Pascal Siakam, I think that's somewhat

692
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,119
telling of where you think you are
on your timeline, Like clearly, if

693
00:43:24,159 --> 00:43:27,800
you thought you were closer to contention, I think you might be willing just

694
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,679
to take that risk and bet on
those guys. And I think that a

695
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:31,880
certain point in time, that is
what they're going to have to do,

696
00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:35,920
Like that's the way they're going to
get the second guy to play with Tyrese,

697
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,119
is they're going to have to take
some type of risk like that.

698
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:42,199
I just don't think that they necessarily
think we're that close, that we're just

699
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,800
like one Pascal Siakam away where they'd
be willing to take a risk on like

700
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:52,000
only the second signal digit pick that
they've had in like three years. The

701
00:43:52,039 --> 00:43:54,679
Pacers are, I feel like,
are really effective at delivering and selling their

702
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:59,320
ethos to their fan based relative to
other teams, because when Grant and I

703
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,320
talked about this Yakam Pacers fit like
a couple months ago when it first came

704
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:10,360
out, we were both fitting smitten
excuse me by like the functional benefits Pacers

705
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:15,320
fans were aggressively pushing back against everything
we said about just why they wouldn't do

706
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,360
that, and so I have to
give like a tip of the cap to

707
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:22,199
the organization for really to make a
good job of clearly selling their ethos and

708
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:23,760
the value of it to the fan
base. I think part of it,

709
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:28,039
too, is that people like really
beat against you know, like the whole

710
00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:30,400
car mellowing it then he getting traded
to the Knicks, things like why would

711
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,119
we get give up assets if we
could just sign that guy? Like why

712
00:44:35,199 --> 00:44:37,039
would we give up assets for o
Giana Noby if we could just sign him

713
00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:39,960
next summer? And I'm like,
well, because you get a year of

714
00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:45,920
trying to persuade him to stay here, like and maybe he's not really interested

715
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,480
in going to a small market team. Again, it's very risky, but

716
00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:52,159
like, I do think there's some
value in that and getting the experience of

717
00:44:52,199 --> 00:44:54,719
playing with Tyrese and knowing, you
know, I think Tyrese gets guys paid.

718
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,559
I truthfully do believe that. I
think if you come play with tyres

719
00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:00,400
Aalibert and you're gonna you're gonna play
better than where you did at your last

720
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,440
stop. But I think that that's
some of it is. I think a

721
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,719
lot of fans are like, why
would we give something up if we could

722
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,000
just pitch him in free agency next
year. Yeah, I would just say

723
00:45:10,039 --> 00:45:15,599
when's the last time the Pacers signed? And O g n obre past David

724
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:22,280
West. I wanted to ask you
about Ben Shepherd because I'm basically a child

725
00:45:22,559 --> 00:45:25,280
and all it takes is one play, especially for a player I know minimally

726
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:30,159
about, since I don't cover the
draft, for me to become enamored with

727
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,039
them, And I wasn't a Ben
Shepherd guy before the draft, even coming

728
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:36,000
out of the draft. Then there
was a play in summer League where he's

729
00:45:36,079 --> 00:45:39,320
battling I know, Chet Hogan's not
the strongest dude, but he's he's freaking

730
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,960
huge, and you have Ben Sheppard
just battling with him and then comes and

731
00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:46,920
jumps the pass and takes it away
from him. So I'm officially a Ben

732
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,800
Shepherd believer. Do you have any
initial impressions on on Ben Shepherd? Is

733
00:45:51,800 --> 00:45:54,679
there even like a modicom of a
chance that he does anything for a team

734
00:45:54,679 --> 00:45:59,320
that's like kind of set on guards
right now? I like Ben Shepherd.

735
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,079
I mean, I think it's interesting. Chappy Canon said the first thing that

736
00:46:01,199 --> 00:46:06,679
Rick asks whenever they are evaluating draft
prospects is can't he shoot? And I

737
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,800
do believe that Ben Shephard can shoot
and in a variety of context, whether

738
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,360
it's you know, backpedaling out to
the corner, shooting off a screen,

739
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,119
shooting in transition. I think that
that matters to the way that the Pacers

740
00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:20,159
want to play. That being said, I don't really see a clear path

741
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,400
to him cracking the rotation unless you're
moving both of TJ McConnell and Buddy Healed,

742
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,000
like because I just don't really know
where the spot's going to automatically come

743
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,079
from. And then that does kind
of create an interesting question from like a

744
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:35,760
draft strategy standpoint that Ben kind of
projects. I do think he needs to

745
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,039
get stronger to help his finishing and
to help he had good moments defensively in

746
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:45,280
Summer League, but it's like his
contest wouldn't really do that much because he's

747
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,760
getting pushed under the rim Like he
did what you're saying, like he swammed

748
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:52,199
the post, like he battled,
but like just his overall on ball defense,

749
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:54,039
he would kind of get pushed under
the rim s. So like there

750
00:46:54,119 --> 00:46:57,840
is a strength element to him,
but like he kind of projects as this

751
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,519
plug and play type player. But
if there isn't an opportunity for him to

752
00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:05,519
play, then does it make more
sense for you to have drafted somebody who

753
00:47:05,559 --> 00:47:07,639
maybe needs more development and therefore,
if they do need to stay with the

754
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:13,519
Maddie's for the year, there could
be more like potentially untapped upside from that

755
00:47:13,639 --> 00:47:15,760
pick. Like that's kind of interesting
with the way that the Pacers have been

756
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:20,239
making draft picks, especially with what
just happened with Christy Arte. There's a

757
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,159
lot of reasons why Chris isn't playing
for the Pacers anymore, but like he

758
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,280
looked like, you know, promising
as a rookie and now they just traded

759
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,760
him for two seconds, similar to
what the Knicks did with Obie Toppin.

760
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,480
So I'm not saying that that's what's
necessarily going to happen with Ben. I

761
00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:35,360
like Ben, I just don't see
a clear path at least as a rookie

762
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,679
for him getting into the rotation unless
there's injuries or like a couple of trades.

763
00:47:43,039 --> 00:47:45,239
Is cookie cutter question time, as
Dan likes to say, But this

764
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:47,920
is not a cookie cutter question.
This is a great question that Dan has

765
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,320
prepared here. And you've been as
as is the case at this time of

766
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,960
year, you know, doing the
circuit of you know various interviews and podcasts

767
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,840
and that kind of thing, and
have had the time talk about the Pacers

768
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,159
at great length and have written about
them at great length for a long time.

769
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,239
What is there anything that we didn't
ask you or that you have not

770
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,559
been asked at all or have rarely
been asked that you think is a really

771
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,800
whether it's like a pivot point for
the season, or something really interesting to

772
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:20,079
you that just maybe the normal fan
doesn't know about the Pacers or what should

773
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:22,559
we be watching for this year that
we have not covered today and that maybe

774
00:48:22,639 --> 00:48:25,800
you haven't gotten to talk about as
much as you'd like to. And I

775
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:30,599
think maybe today the only player that
we didn't really touch on is maybe aaron

776
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:34,360
N Smith. And he really did
establish himself. I mean, he plays

777
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,000
really freaking hard, like that's the
one thing that you can always count on

778
00:48:37,079 --> 00:48:39,239
from him. And I commend him
for the fact that he was kind of

779
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,920
the unsung hero that kind of turned
their season when he did step into being

780
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,440
a starting four. That's not what
I would have projected from him last summer.

781
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,760
If you had asked me what role
will aaron Nie Smith have? That's

782
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,360
not what I would have said.
But now it's like you kind of look

783
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,239
at the depth chart and it's again
like the whole TJ McConnell thing, Like,

784
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,760
it feels like the spot in that
second unit is either going to be

785
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,760
TJ's or Aaron's. Going from being
a starter to potentially, you know,

786
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,760
either not being on the rotation or
being on the fringe is kind of an

787
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,000
underdiscussed thing because you know, they
need, I think critically, to be

788
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:13,679
at least a top twenty defense if
they want to get into the playoffs or

789
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,639
be competitive in the play and tournament. And they can build lineups where it's

790
00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:20,239
like, oh wow, like that's
an intriguing lineup. What if they play

791
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,599
Nemhard and Nie Smith and Bruce Brown
and Jaris Walker and Miles Turner all at

792
00:49:23,639 --> 00:49:27,920
the same time. But it's like, how are they getting to that lineup

793
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,760
with how many rotation players they have? So yeah, I mean, I

794
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:35,199
think that maybe people didn't necessarily notice
Aaron's kind of a foul machine. He

795
00:49:35,199 --> 00:49:37,920
struggles to finish some of his defensive
possessions without fouling. But I do think

796
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:40,639
he had a nice season with the
Pacers, and it feels like he isn't

797
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:44,639
necessarily going to get worse. It's
just that there's not necessarily going to be

798
00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:47,679
the same opportunity for him as there
was a year ago. I still get

799
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,519
nervous every time he takes more than
like two dribbles, especially if he's been

800
00:49:52,559 --> 00:49:58,960
doing it with his left hand generally
a little bit dicey. So we've talked

801
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,719
a lot about who's going to play, and it feels like there's probably eight

802
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:07,159
or nine locks for the ten man
rotation. How do you sort of see

803
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,679
just and it could be shorter than
a ten rotation, maybe they branch out

804
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,320
beyond ten men dury a normal night, but like, what would the ten

805
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,239
man rotation and your estimation be for
this team? Yeah, I mean my

806
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:22,960
best guest for the starters Tyres and
Miles or locks. Ben kind of indicated

807
00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:25,280
that on a secondary broadcast with Stephen
A. Smith that he expects to be

808
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,800
the starting three, which he was
already starting the last ten games the last

809
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,320
year. So I don't think that
would exactly be a shock. I think

810
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:35,960
it'll be a camp battle between Obie
Toppen and Jarress Walker, and then because

811
00:50:36,679 --> 00:50:39,039
of how they handled Ben last year, it wouldn't surprise me if they bring

812
00:50:39,119 --> 00:50:42,960
Jariss off the bench as a rookie
and the nod goes to Obi Toppin and

813
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,760
then I don't think you're paying Bruce
Brown twenty two and a half million dollars

814
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:47,719
to come off the bench, So
I think he'll be the last starter there,

815
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:51,400
and then the reserves. I think
you can probably look at Buddy as

816
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,920
sixth man Andrew and then a choice
between TJ and Aaron N. Smith and

817
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:00,199
then Jarress Walker backup four he needs
to be playing, and then you know

818
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,639
rotation Carol still at the five.
I would probably lean toward Jalen right now,

819
00:51:06,039 --> 00:51:07,679
but I don't know where the Pacers
will land on that after training camp.

820
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:12,360
We'll have to wait and see.
Yeah, that's interest. We haven't

821
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,320
really mentioned Isaiah Jackson like at all. It's just he's just a victim of

822
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,079
the squeeze. It seems like upfront
or are there going to be matchups where

823
00:51:20,079 --> 00:51:22,599
maybe he does make more sense than
you know, whoever it is Smith or

824
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,400
Walker or whoever. Yeah, I
mean, I think he pairs well with

825
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,679
Andrew Nemoard, Like I said,
like, I think they were one of

826
00:51:28,679 --> 00:51:30,840
the better lab combinations in the NBA
last year and they didn't even play that

827
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:36,800
many minutes together. But my enduring
question with Isaiah continues to be is he

828
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,719
a small ball five or is he
a five who is small because he doesn't

829
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:44,360
do that many small ball five things. He's just kind of like an undersized

830
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,280
traditional five. And I am in
year two and I still don't know what

831
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:52,400
his ideal pick and roll coverage is. Like Theoretically, he moves really well

832
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:53,880
and can cover a ton of ground, so you think it's going to be

833
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:58,400
switching, but he tends to want
to stand up, he doesn't always take

834
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,679
the best angles. Is dry coverage
still has a long way to go.

835
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,800
Like part of me thinks it's Blitz
because he can be more proactive and force

836
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,920
negative dribbles and then give himself time
to get back, and he does cover

837
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:13,480
ground so well, but they don't
necessarily have the roster to accommodate Pa playing

838
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,679
Blitz because they don't have a lot
of length, or at least they didn't

839
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,440
last year. So like, defensively, their numbers are not good with him

840
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,840
out there as solo five and rebounding
wise, I do think he made a

841
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:27,280
few strides there during Summer League,
especially on the offensive glass, but like,

842
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,400
he's just still a question mark for
me, and I'm not sure he

843
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,119
should be as much of a question
mark entering into his third season. So

844
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,320
that's kind of where I land,
given that the seems like the starters are

845
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:45,079
fairly well established. Do you envision
the closing lineup obviously accounting for like sometimes

846
00:52:45,079 --> 00:52:47,719
matchups, just are you going to
call for different things? Do you envision

847
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,159
the closing lineup on most nights differing
from the starting lineup, and if so,

848
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:53,880
you know who's in and who's out. I think it do. I

849
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,280
think it will, And I think
that could be telling because last year I

850
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,840
think their most used closing lineup was
the same as the starters, the starting

851
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:04,119
lineup with Aaron at the four,
and then their other most used one was

852
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,519
Tyrese, Buddy Miles, with both
rookies being Ben and Andrew. So I

853
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:12,000
think it might depend like are you
in crunch time and you're up by six

854
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:15,360
or you're down by six, But
I would anticipate that both of them will

855
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:20,039
include Tyrese, Buddy and Miles and
then Bruce Brown, and I won't be

856
00:53:20,039 --> 00:53:22,159
surprised if Bruce Brown is out there
at the four and they're playing smaller,

857
00:53:22,639 --> 00:53:28,800
just because I don't know what to
project from Obi toppin defensively quite yet and

858
00:53:29,199 --> 00:53:31,280
expecting to throw Jaris out there as
a rookie feels like a lot. So

859
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,440
like, if you're up by six
and you're trying to maintain a lead,

860
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,800
I could see them playing a lineup
of like Tyrese, Ben, Buddy,

861
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:42,920
Bruce Miles. If you're down by
six and you need to get stops,

862
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:46,440
I could see it being you know, Tyrese, Andrew, maybe aaron N

863
00:53:46,599 --> 00:53:51,360
Smith, Bruce Miles if you really
need to get stops. Otherwise, I

864
00:53:52,199 --> 00:53:54,440
bet that Buddy will be in the
starting lineup or in the closing lineup,

865
00:53:54,440 --> 00:54:00,440
which means you're probably playing smaller to
accomplish doing that. Is there a weirdo,

866
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,679
quirky wonky lineup that you would like
to see them try? Yeah,

867
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,840
give me all the defense, give
me the best defense at every position,

868
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,719
or if Tyrese is still going to
be out there, then give me some

869
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:15,679
combination of Tyres and Miles, and
then pick between Bruce and Jariss and Andrew

870
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,480
and aaron Nie Smith and just put
as many defenders out there so that we

871
00:54:19,519 --> 00:54:22,840
can see a better product than what
we've seen in the last two years for

872
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:27,880
this team. I mean, I
I just put Tyrese out there with four

873
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,639
defenders because I figure he can if
somebody's going to generate shots for guys that

874
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,239
can't do it themselves, I would
just trust him to do it, and

875
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:37,119
then you cover up for him on
the on defense. What you always have

876
00:54:37,159 --> 00:54:39,760
the weirdest ones? Dan, what's
yours? How small is your lineup?

877
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,639
It's small? So I tried to
find a lineup where Jarress Walker was at

878
00:54:44,639 --> 00:54:49,920
the five super charge the defense.
So I settled on because TJ mcconnells just

879
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,239
can't play off the ball, so
I couldn't really put him in this lineup.

880
00:54:52,559 --> 00:54:57,679
I have Bruce Brown, Aaronie Smith, Jarress Walker, Tyrese Halibert is

881
00:54:57,679 --> 00:55:00,280
just gonna be out there because Tyrres
Halibert and then Andrew nem Hard. I

882
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,159
feel like that's pretty tame by my
lineup standards. Yeah, But the thing

883
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:07,360
is is, I don't think it's
outside of the realm of possibility that Jaris

884
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,599
will play minutes at the five,
because I think offensively, like a lot

885
00:55:09,599 --> 00:55:13,880
of his skill set tracks to being
a five, and they played him at

886
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,599
the five minutes in Summer League,
So like, I don't think it's that

887
00:55:15,599 --> 00:55:22,280
outlandish. The real supercharge defense on
either be like just subout Haliburton for McConnell.

888
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,400
I don't know what that torpedoes.
You're spacing an offense, but that

889
00:55:24,519 --> 00:55:29,480
was Supercharger defense. It's like a
seventy five offensive rating team. Right there

890
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,440
we go. You want to do
the over under This is a great over

891
00:55:34,519 --> 00:55:37,079
underline. It made me feel really
smart because when I did my preseason predictions,

892
00:55:37,159 --> 00:55:40,400
I was close to this. Caitlyn, it's thirty eight and a half.

893
00:55:42,039 --> 00:55:45,000
That is the Pacers. I guess
the Vegas line, Dan, this

894
00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:49,039
is where I'm not sure where it
came from exactly. We're not sponsored by

895
00:55:49,079 --> 00:55:52,280
them, so I don't Yeah,
we're not gonna shout out anything anything.

896
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:57,159
How do you feel about that number? And uh, well, if you

897
00:55:57,199 --> 00:56:00,920
want to make an exact record prediction, feel free. But I always hate

898
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:02,159
doing that, so I'm not going
to ask you to do that unless you

899
00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:07,239
want to. Yeah. So,
I mean I underestimated them last year badly,

900
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,760
Like I assumed that they would move
Buddy and Miles before the trade deadline,

901
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,039
so I kind of baked that into
how much I underestimated them, But

902
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:20,719
I was still wrong regardless. Machine
Yeah, I know, and now I

903
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,000
feel like I might be overestimating them
a little bit. But in the games

904
00:56:23,039 --> 00:56:27,199
of Miles Turner and Tyres were both
available, they played at a forty four

905
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,599
win rate, and they had a
slightly negative net rating, which was almost

906
00:56:30,639 --> 00:56:34,000
identical to the Miami Heats last year. So I think the Pacers are going

907
00:56:34,039 --> 00:56:38,360
to the NBA Finals next year.
But yeah, I'm just kidding, but

908
00:56:38,519 --> 00:56:43,679
I would take the over. I
think that last year, when those guys

909
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,239
were available, they had already shown
that they were a little bit better than

910
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,840
what their record ended up being by
the time they had pivoted to development mode.

911
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,960
And I do think that Bruce Brown's
going to help them. I do

912
00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:57,199
think that Jared's Walker will help them
to a degree based on how poor their

913
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,239
defense was last year. So I'll
take the over. This feels and I

914
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:07,199
haven't settled on hours yet because we
haven't done the conference pods, but this

915
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,360
feels very last year Kingsey to me. And I've said this about the Orlando

916
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,840
Magic line in too, where I
see thirty eight and a half, I'm

917
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:15,679
kind of like, I don't know, that feels too low, and if

918
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:19,440
it was like the Magic feels even
lower to me. But I'm looking at

919
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,280
it right now and I'm just like, that feels that feels low. That's

920
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,360
my initial, just like impressions of
the thirty eight and where did you land

921
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,280
with it? Grant? I,
this is just you know, preliminary.

922
00:57:29,599 --> 00:57:32,320
Haven't done any deep dives. I
think like thirty nine felt about right to

923
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,639
me because I think, what did
they I think they played, Oh this

924
00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:38,760
is again the full season, and
it's just based on their differential. Last

925
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,679
year they were like a thirty one
ish win team, you know, based

926
00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:45,440
on their net rating, and I
think they won thirty five. Is that

927
00:57:45,559 --> 00:57:50,679
right? That could be off by
a couple but so I'm kind of pricing

928
00:57:50,719 --> 00:57:52,760
that and like, I think they'll
get a lot better, but I'm assuming

929
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:57,440
they're starting from a lower baseline just
based on the differential as opposed to the

930
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,159
record last year. So that's how
I'm That's how I'm sort of of a

931
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,320
justifying going just slightly over see.
I look at it as like, oh,

932
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,960
thirty five wins, they just need
four more. That's just that's whatever

933
00:58:08,079 --> 00:58:12,199
one in ten or one in nine
and when Haliburton missed that stretch, So

934
00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:15,239
there you go, Caitlin, do
you think the wide openness of the East

935
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,480
benefits or hurts them in that regard, because I think if you really go

936
00:58:19,559 --> 00:58:22,840
through it, because of what's going
on with Damian Lillard and James Harden right

937
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:24,599
now, maybe you want to price
in and say, Okay, we know

938
00:58:24,719 --> 00:58:28,679
that Dame is going to go to
Miami, So then there's like maybe four

939
00:58:28,719 --> 00:58:32,000
teams that I'm prepared to say if
Dame's in Miami are better than like every

940
00:58:32,079 --> 00:58:37,760
other team with Boston, Miami,
Cleveland, and Milwaukee. And then after

941
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:39,199
that, I'm like, if you
told me, I wouldn't predict it,

942
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:43,159
But if you told me the Pacers
were better than the Knicks and the Nets

943
00:58:43,199 --> 00:58:46,920
and the Hawks, like that wouldn't
surprise me. But it could also go

944
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,239
the other way where it's like,
oh, did the Hornets just like sort

945
00:58:50,239 --> 00:58:52,920
of jump the pay did the magic
jump the Pacers? So do you think

946
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,159
the wide openness benefits them in like
sort of that regard or could it potentially

947
00:58:57,239 --> 00:59:00,360
hurt them more? I mean I
think it. I think it if it's

948
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,079
them, And just like health in
general is a very boring topic to talk

949
00:59:02,119 --> 00:59:05,440
about, but like when you just
compare them to the bowls, like the

950
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:09,639
Bowls have a very sustainable defense.
But their top guys all were very healthy

951
00:59:09,719 --> 00:59:14,960
last year. I think the fewest
games any of their top three, including

952
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,960
if you include Patrick in there too, like they all played seventy five or

953
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,880
more games, and they still are
only like one game over five hundred versus

954
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,599
the Pacers. Tyree's played like fifty
six, Miles missed a number. Like

955
00:59:27,639 --> 00:59:30,079
I said, when they were both
available, they were playing at a forty

956
00:59:30,079 --> 00:59:34,599
four win rate. So obviously the
East changes, but I don't think that

957
00:59:34,639 --> 00:59:37,559
I would put them in and solidly
a playoff spot right now. But I

958
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:39,920
think that they could make it into
the play in tournament. And I think

959
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:44,480
that they're also a hard team to
play with, Like Jannis touched on this

960
00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:45,960
when they played the Pacers, and
we're like, when you have to go

961
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:50,960
play at that pace for an entire
game, like that's something that's hard to

962
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,480
do to get up to do,
especially with the way that they run off

963
00:59:53,519 --> 00:59:57,199
of make. So I think that
can be hard to deal with in the

964
00:59:57,239 --> 01:00:00,199
regular season. We'll see how how
it translates in a in tournament situation or

965
01:00:00,239 --> 01:00:02,480
if they were to get into the
playoffs out of the play and tournament.

966
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:07,360
But I'm I'm pegging them in the
seven to ten range is where I see

967
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,239
it playing out a meaning we missed
about this team of these thinks that leads

968
01:00:10,239 --> 01:00:15,519
to be discussed like strong Jordan Wara
takes naming one more lines. I mean,

969
01:00:15,559 --> 01:00:17,519
Jordan Wara wasn't bad for them last
year. I did watch like one

970
01:00:17,559 --> 01:00:21,480
specific play that they ran with them
was almost money all the time because I

971
01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:24,679
don't understand why defenders defended it the
way that they did. But apparently he's

972
01:00:24,719 --> 01:00:29,440
trying to drop weight so that you
can play more positions, So we'll see,

973
01:00:30,679 --> 01:00:32,920
Kaylor, are you just able to
tell our listeners once more where they

974
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,800
can find you and all the fantastic
work that you're putting out right? So

975
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:39,840
my Twitter handles at C two Underscore
Cooper. If you go there, there's

976
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:44,000
a link to the Patreon that's patreon
dot com slash basketball. So she wrote

977
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:45,800
where you can find all my work. A fair amount of it is unlocked.

978
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,519
So if you just want to do
like get to know me and see

979
01:00:49,519 --> 01:00:51,960
what type of work I get to
do, I courage you go over there,

980
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:52,960
read it, check it out,
and then if you want to become

981
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:57,719
a patren, I of course would
be happy to have you whoops my computer

982
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,800
and the links to those will also
be in the pod and YouTube descriptions,

983
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,159
and just just pay for it.
Enough with the freeze or just go pay

984
01:01:02,199 --> 01:01:06,360
for it Grant. Do you want
to take us? Do you want to

985
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,719
take us out? I would love
to thank you Caitlyn so much, really

986
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:13,760
appreciate you. Coming on. Everybody, please, as Dan said, follow

987
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,000
Caitlin, subscribe, join Patreon,
just consume everything she does, especially if

988
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,159
you're interesting, if you're interested in
the Pacers at all, and you're not

989
01:01:20,599 --> 01:01:23,840
all over what Caitlin is producing.
I I'd like to understand how that's possible.

990
01:01:24,639 --> 01:01:29,559
But as an as guys that cover
the NBA from a national perspective,

991
01:01:30,119 --> 01:01:35,239
still invaluable work. Speaking of you
can follow us at GT Underscore, Hughes

992
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:37,840
at Dan's Valley, at Hardwood Knox, rate Review, subscribe, tell your

993
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:40,920
friends and enemies do all that stuff
so we can grow and have more great

994
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,920
guests like Caitlyn. And we will
close, as always with a shout out

995
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,039
to the one and only Frank Milatina
and an apology to caret out