Hey, everybody, welcome to Coming Out Pod. This is Lauren. So
if you if you did not see the little mini bonus episode a couple of
weeks ago, this is going to be the last episode of the podcast,
not forever, not doing a big final episode, but the pod is going
to be taking a hiatus. I will almost certainly be back to do at
least a couple episodes during Pride Month, but this will be the last episode
for a while. So to that end, a queer root shout out that
I have been saving. Queer root shout out this week to you if your
queer root is Tatiana Maslani from Orphan Black. Orphan Black is my favorite TV
show of all time. It is very very queer and without giving too much
away, the actress tatianas it was a gorgeous, sexy name. The show
the top. The topic the show is about clones. So she plays a
whole bunch of clones. She plays like eight or ten different characters and they
all look very different, they have different accents, different, A lot of
them are queer, one is lesbian, one's bisexual. She plays a trans
man clone and I love I love this as a queer root shout out because
a lot of folks on this podcast have talked about when they finally come out
as queer and then they'll like date their first person of the gender they've secretly
always wanted to date, and if there's no spark, they're like, oh
my god, what if I'm wrong? What if I wasn't queer? And
it's like, no, no, no, You're not going to be attracted
to every single person of that gender. You have to still find the right
person. But see Orphan Black is a great litmus test because you can be
like, which of these many Tatiana maslanis am I attracted to? And if
you're attracted to any of them, you are in fact gay. I'm sorry,
that's the rule, So shout out to you if any one of the
clones played by Tatiana Maazlani is your clear root y'all. I am doing my
first solo Redux episode, which is one of my favorite things that Nicole and
I used to do. It's when we would have a guest back after a
number of years, So I am here today with return guest gen Lee.
Hi Jen. What's up? Jen is a producer and writer and at the
time the Jen was first on the podcast, she was Jen Lee Smith,
So slight name modification there, I'm going to give a little recap. So
Jen was on episode two six back in July of twenty twenty two, which,
as we talked about, is less than two years ago, but feels
like a lot or to both of us, it's been a long couple of
years. Yeah, yeah, a lot has transpired. But so Jen was
actually on as part of a dual guest episode. The other guest sad episode
was named Carrie Spencer Prey, and Jen and Carrie were the editors of a
book that had just come out called I Spoke to You with Silence, Essays
from Queer Mormons of Marginalized genders, And we talked a lot in that episode
about the intersections of queerness and Mormonism and being non white and a queer Mormon,
and how that was the queer Mormon space was very white, and how
Jen was trying to do something to represent all the other people in that space
who did not have the same sort of front facing like, I don't know
publicity as all of the white queer representation representation, Baby, how do I
have a queer podcast? And I couldn't come up with a word representation.
That's that's why we need to take a little hiatus. So I always give
a little recap so in case you maybe didn't hear that episode originally, or
it was a very long time ago you don't remember it. So brief recap
of Jen and Jen's coming out story. Jen and correct me if I get
any of this wrong. You went to BYU Bringham Young University. You were
married to a man in your early twenties. At the time that we recorded
in July of twenty twenty two. You'd been married for I believe twenty one
years. You had three kids. Now. You had gone to grad school
at UCLA in two thousand and eight, which was when you had come out
like fully to yourself, and more importantly, you did come out to your
husband, to your partner, and you two were in You and your husband
were in a monogamous relationship, although you noted in the podcast you did not
necessarily think you were intrinsically monogamous, but that was something that he needed,
and so that's what you were doing, and you were you had both chosen
to at the time to stay married even though you had come out to him,
and this was not like a secret or anything. But you described your
relationship at the time as primarily an emotional and spiritual relationship that you and your
husband had. And then during lockdown, as a lot of people did,
you ended up leaving the LDS church, but you were still you were still
like attending services back in twenty twenty two. You were going with your kids
and your partner, but you had left kind of the I guess ideology of
it, if we want to say, so you were in sort of like
a gray area maybe with it, but those were kind of the basics.
Yeah, and most of them. Did I get it? Did I know?
You capsulated a lot of complexity in like ninety seconds. Well, I
took notes. I listened to the episode this morning, and I cook notes
on my phone. And now here's here's perhaps the most important bit. Uh
So, when I asked you, how do you identify at the top of
that episode, Uh, well, you you noted Asian American, which has
always been an important part of your identity. And then in terms of gender
sexuality, all of the things pertaining specifically to coming out, you identified as
demi queer and homo romantic. Uh and so, yeah, that is the
recap You're like, oh, interesting, do you remember using those identifiers at
that point in time. I'm wondering if they've changed it. I forgot about
the demi, but yeah, I think that I I identify as queer.
Forget why I added the demi in front. Well, he's pretty accurate.
Yeah, you kind of talked about how, you know, you were struggling
with what so many folks in hetero presenting marriages, right struggle with. So
you were sort of I believe, if I remembering what you said correctly,
it was you said demi queer because like you were, you were queer and
you use the word queer and stuff like that. But you identified as demi
queer because you were in this marriage to a CIS hetero man with three kids
that looked very you know, so you kind of like put the demi there
because as an acknowledgment I think of the structure that you were in. But
it sounds like now you're identifying the demi has fallen perhaps by the wayside,
and now you you're using queer. You know what's interesting, I think post
that time, and we'll probably get to this in our conversation, is I
identify as me? Fine? I mean this and like this sounds very anti
clomatic, but I finally get to be one person, and so I get
to just show up as me, do you know what I mean? Like
yeah, absolutely, Like before I was it was really many many, many
decades of like wow, what what is what? What is? What is
the glass to contain this water? You know? And now I get just
to be the water and I'm less about the glass. That makes sense.
That is so beautiful. That's that should be like on a sampler, like
embroidered on a that's a beautiful Yeah, I love. Do you want an
embroider? Yeah, I think we should do. I can't embroider for it's
a lot of embroidery because it's a lot of words. M If you embroider,
you know, I do make so much sense though, because I feel
like and I don't I'm not speak I don't mean to speak for you,
but I feel like we were saying off Mike, you maybe felt like you
had to add Quali fires to a lot of your identity for a long time
because we I had noted that you identified as Asian American and felt that that
was important to say because in the Mormon space, like it was so predominantly
white, so like you wanted to like note, even hey, on this
audio where you can't see me, I would like people to know, you
know that I'm Asian American as so identifying as DEMI queer, being like,
Okay, I get that maybe this family doesn't look like but I want you
like that's important to me that you know, and using words like homo romantic,
like yes, I am married to a man, but I do identify
as homo romantic and I have these feelings like so it feels like you your
whole life have perhaps had to use a lot of micro labels and qualifiers and
like be very specific about identity because it might not seem to people not looking
that closely that they're there and they're really important. Yeah. Yeah, this
is so true. It's so interesting. It does feel like million years ago
because since then I've I've dated women only and family identifying as well. So
I guess that makes me Okay, does that make me pan Yeah? I
guess it does pansexual. Yeah this is huge. Yeah, okay, So
let's start from like around Sober of twenty twenty two, and you're like,
I don't what was it? If it helps, it was like right when
your book had come out, right, So yeah, So I guess from
the time that that book came out, did stuff start to like get shaken
up or anything, because suddenly you had this book published that was very front
facing, like queer, you know what I mean? Like, did that
like start anything or was that just coincidence? Like did that start getting you
thinking or like, well, I think I've really I am a very experiential
person. I need to be in the field right and doing the thing,
and that's how I learned best. I think some people can read a book
and be like, oh, yeah, I understand, But for me,
I feel like I need to be in the space trying to still be the
you know, you know, Carrie was married to a woman and not actively
practicing Mormonism. I was still semi you know, practicing and in a hetero
relationship. So I felt like that was a good pairing for us. Definitely
not it just happened to be that way. I didn't do that for marketing
reasons, but and it actually did. Right, there are folks who are
like, oh, okay, well I feel safe with her because she's choosing
what the church wants her to choose, which is to stay married and not
you know, act out my my orientation is still kind of I think the
standard line to be a good Mormon who is queer just don't have sex with
women like you. Yeah, and you'll be good. And so I was
playing that role, and in that role, it didn't quite it kind of
was that story. Remember that story I wrote in the book that was kind
of funny, the one you made me read out, Yeah, I'm sorry
that I make When the podcast I had to go, I can't listen to
myself read i skip skip skipship. But yeah, no, of course I
remember. Yeah, of course. Well that was like me being experiential,
like, oh, now I'm in a space where I get to pretend I'm
dating a woman and I'm making that choice. Oh my gosh, I'm feeling
emotional. I hope I made so many people women question their sexuality by doing
that immersive show. That was not the goal going in, but that is
retroactively, I hope that happened. I hope so too. I hope women
start coming up being like, oh, you were Emily, the one that
you know, but you're so but think who remembers the name of the first
I did? Okay, so you were that experience, and then I was
in experience with the room with people being like, yeah, I'm the and
then I was like, this doesn't feel right in my skin. So it
was that being in that in that book tour that really and I don't know
where our podcast was in the middle of of the you know, the book
launching, but I really started to say, this doesn't feel right in my
body. It started getting itchy, right, like this is not the stick.
I'm not and I'm showing up in the world as this and it doesn't
feel right and I can't makes a lot of sense. Yep, yeah,
and it was and then you know, I'm not going to get into it,
but I basically then my next step was to go no contact with my
parents because I was realizing how much over time, right as we do it
was going through life, and how much of my Mormonism and my hetero forced
force mormonism force heteronormativity was a result of being extensions of them, and that
comes from narcissistic trauma. I'm not diagnosing them, but they have a lot
of complex PTSD, which could lead to a lot of that usually leads to
a lot of narcissistic traits. Anyway, that being said the like a good
daughter of people with narcissistic traits, I went no contact. That's what we
call it. In my Facebook group of like two hundred thousand people who are
the Sisterhood of Daughters of Narcissistic there's a lot. You're in good company,
I think, yeah, I think there's more than two hundred thousand. I
have to say, it's a very common thing, and we have to eventually
realize that the healthiest thing for a lot of us to do is to divorce
them or to go and see no contact. And after that, literally a
week after that, I I called it. I told my my husband,
I can't do this anymore. We can't, we can't be married anymore.
So that was that was the order. Then spoke to her no contact with
parents and separation. Wow okay, yeah, in that order. It felt
exactly happened kind of quickly. It sounds like very quickly. Oh yeah,
it all happened in the summer. That was just that was just what like
that was right after we recorded then, yeah, wow, wow, okay,
Oh my gosh, how did that go? How did your husband receive
that? Because again this was someone who he knew. You had been out
to him since like two thousand and eight, so this was knowledge that he
had. He knew, Yeah, but how did it go? How did
he take it once you were like for real cities? This is right well
to his credit and he's I would say, his personality is such where he
would have and he even admitted this recently. He would have kept going because
of duty and loyalty and his value quite high up when his value system is
order and obedience, which is very high up in the Mormon you know value
system right of any high demand religion, Order which is in order at all
costs makes you very good soldiers. And religions love soldiers, right, and
so to be a good and I was. I don't think I was ever
a very good soldier, just my personality was not conducive to that. But
I wanted to be a good Mormon. I wanted to be accepted, I
wanted belonging. I wanted like all my people people right. My blood relations
were in the religion, and I married into a family that was also very,
very loyal to Mormonism. But I think I dared to ask, you
know, at what cost? And I think over the years I kept asking
that question at what costs? And I think the moment that I said that
we can't do this anymore, I think he he had a moment of clarity
as well around that, like that the cost is too high for both of
us. That's what's so interesting is that he was also sacrificing his happiness and
his you know, ability to like have intimacy in his life. So it's
just like, it's just that grip is so tight on people, right,
they'll they put it above their own happiness. You're both doing that, Like
it's so sad, and I'm glad that you. Oh, well he has
he. I probably won't get too much into this, but I think there
was one time he did say, you know, I've been thinking about this
and if I was gay and I needed to be with men, I would
still be married to you. I would still try to make it work.
And I believe him because that is that he values. And sure, right,
but it's worth noting you did do that for over you know, for
like about like over twenty years. You did that for over twenty years.
And he also it is easy to say that, but he did not have
the experience of going through that and know, like we can all say,
well, I would do this in that situation, but yeah, so yeah,
I don't know. We'll never know, we'll never know, we'll never
know. But he he has now found a lot of peace with his world,
happy world of luck, with the lack of tension. I'm the only
one that provides attention really, and also just the disruption that I've caused to
our children, and that's been kind of a really hard thing for me since
then. So that's one of the major challenges, is, you know,
like, how do I put my children through this? And I think many,
many, many queer parents have asked themselves this question, right, like,
am I such a shitty person that I would mess up? You know?
And I cannot let you say you're shitty Perston at this point, even
if you're speaking hypothetically as if you are questioning it, just like I do
just want to be like, don't say that. It's just not true.
Like I've seen you put your children and I don't even know you very well,
but I have seen you always put your children as like first and foremost
in terms of everything that you've been dealing with. So I just don't think
that's and you know, what's interesting is that I have been able to love
them so much more since, Yeah, feeling right in my own body and
skin. And yeah, I said this recently because I was invited to speak
about the book again in Utah. This is only a few weeks ago,
and they did it for February and like Black History Month, and this was
another part actually another podcast called breaking Down Patriarchy, and my friend Amy was
featuring a lot of her guests who are not white, and of course this
is a big deal in Sandy, Utah, in white women land, to
be like, let's really lean into like, you know, because there's a
lot of white Mormon feminists who forget sometimes that there are also people of color
within their faith and get to be reminded once in a while by folks like
me. I'm okay playing that role because I think it's needed. I think
it's needed in a homogeneous community, especially a high demand and also very powerful.
Let's not forget it's very very powerful economically and politically politically hugely. Yeah,
this is a religion that has done very well for itself, right,
and so we need to remember that these are the power dynamics that we're working
with, and they actively choose to forget people of color because it's almost within
it's within the doctrine that people don't talk about anymore. But at one point,
Mormons really believe that there is a hierarchy of race. Yeah. I
remember learning about that. Yeah, I mean it was literally like a vision
that a prophet had that you know, before we were born, there we
were, we were ranked by rights, and so then when we were born,
if you're born a white person, that ussa mean, you were more
valiant before you were what we call the pre existence. You're more valiant because
you know, you get to be not a black person in this like it.
You know, if you're a black person, I mean, it's like,
wow, you probably weren't so great in the predy. I mean,
and then they don't talk about this actively anymore, but it's so there.
It's this assumption that that also aligns with white supremacist ideals globally. Right,
So yeah, it isn't alone. It's not like they're saying the quiet parton
out loud, but they're also not saying it out loud, but they're saying
it more out loud than a lot of people are saying it out loud.
So it's a weird yeah, yeah, oh yeah, it's it is very
weird. But like here we are in this like in a you know,
America, still having the same conversations. So I don't I want to point
out that Mormonism isn't unique in that in that No, we're not like I
can, I can be like, oh jeez all I want, but I'm
still living in a society that very actively does that. It's just doing it
in perhaps a more insidious way. Perhaps. Yeah, it's different, it's
it's like and then I still so there's complexity, and I still feel a
sense of loss. I still grieve for all the beauty and the joy and
the love. Yeah right that we were just talking about this pre pre you
know podcast, You and I just how like religions start. We it really
does feel that part of us that needs belonging, that needs community, that
needs love, that needs to believe in something greater than ourselves, and that's
fantastic. And I do think Mormonism still still tries to do that, right,
And it's the faith part. Yeah, well, it goes back to
the whole Jesus was a hippie, like he was a dude to war robes,
and had long hair and where sandals and was like love everybody and then
look and then it became the Crusades. You know, it's like a lot
of these things start. I know that's simplistic, but do you get what
I'm saying? Oh totally. Yeah. Can I ask in terms of in
terms of your kids, because I know they're different ages. Did all of
them know how did your queerness? How did they know about that? Or
did any of them not know about that before the point where you separated from
your husband, because when you came out to him back in two thousand and
eight, I think at least one or two of them were too young to
Did you tell all of them at that point or at what point did they
sort of get told about the situation. We lived in a family culture of
just don't say that things don't cause any y any conflict or tension, and
I couldn't help myself. I had to in twenty sixteen produce a film about
lesbian Mormons and come out. That was the one we talked about. Yeah,
yes, I'm fascinated. So at that point, at that point they
I didn't talk to my and I don't think I did this the best way
not at all, not even close. But I just kind of they just
found out from by way of my creative work, right, And then the
first short story I republished was about you know, queer about queerness, and
so they know me by my work that I'm very engaged in figuring out these
questions and these intersections of faith and conservative family and queerness. So I think
they knew as early as I mean, if they as twenty sixteen, I
didn't really talk to them, talk to them about it until maybe be twenty
eighteen, twenty twenty. I don't know. It just kind of came out
in pieces, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, no, that I feel
like that is coming out in pieces in terms of children, I feel like
something I have heard before from from folks on this podcast. But so they
what I guess I was getting at is this separation was not in any way
coming out of nowhere to your kids, Like, this was something that they
knew, and they knew what the kind of arrangement was between you and your
husband. So yeah, so this was not like out of the blue for
any of them at the point that. Yeah, to our credit, we
were very very careful about when we told our children. Yeah, so when
we made that decision, we took about a month and a half to really
lean into what was happening in all different status, in all different layers of
our lives. You know, do we wait until school starts? And at
what point and at which child do we start with? And I think my
ex is very he's a very empathic I would say, well to an extent,
right, So he's very he's very He's very sensitive to people and their
needs, which makes him he's he's wonderful that way. And he he he's
been such an incredible parent to our kids. As I've been grappling with my
own issues and of trauma, of my own childhood traumas and and things like
that, I think he has shown up a lot more than I have for
my kids. You showed up for as well as I could. I feel
like three kids like they're yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm
not meaning to invalidate your feeling. I'm just like, oh no, I
hate hearing you say, yeah, I appreciate yourself, but but you have
a therapist. You get all that. I have a lot of work to
do. I need a daily therapist is what I need. I need reminders
like that because I don't know what you know a lot of times, I'll
keep doing it. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you. This is
like therapy right now, I'll take it. I'll kill you after all,
Right, sounds good. I'll support you on Patreon. Everyone for support this
podcast anyway. Okay, but yeah, I think I mean you said that
your daughter, your daughter's almost eighteen, you're older. She's eighteen, she
just turned eighteen. She I'm a daughter of my daughter's eighteen. I'm a
mother of an eighteen year old. Wow, right, Like I just took
her to the bank and we just started to Yeah, it was crazy,
crazy, really intense. But this is happening in real time that you know,
I am. They're all at the age though, where they could understand,
like even back in twenty twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen, like there there
was you could have like conversations with them about what like, hey, our
family might look different from other families because this is how it works between me
and your dad and that's sort of maybe not that direct, but like it
was, it was they were at an age where they could understand the information
that was sort of being ruled out correct. Yes, And I was kind
of leading that that part of he would he leads the more kind of I
would say, traditional strain things, and I lead the kind of more let's
get curious about what's possible. Oh I love that ch Yeah, And I
think that was so between him and I we I think that was the joy
a very joyous part of our of our of our relationship is that we could
create that dynamic for Okay, so they have they can hold space for multitudes,
I think just because of the nature of their parents. So I think
they were able to adjust to that news. When we finally gave it to
them a month and a half later, the oldest was like, yeah,
kind of just kind of like yeah, I mean, I that doesn't surprise
me at all. And then I think it was the youngest and he was
ten or eleven at the top eleven yeah at the time, and was he
was most thrown, which makes sense for so many reasons. My second daughter
also felt like this was right. She's she is very very in tune with
her with people's feelings as well, and so so yeah, I think they
they just knew, the daughters, you know, being older also, and
my son and I have a different relationship, like he and I really get
each other. You know, we're personality and are just our natural curiosity for
things and our need for expansion. We're very similar in that way. And
then yeah, and then the need for order, Like I see this is
not as a fault at all of my ex husband, but you know,
that need for order shows up in my second daughter. But she also has
that kind of that love of people, that's that's innate in her. So
it's beautiful. I just I love my kids. They're so amazing. They're
so kind, they're compassionate, they're generous, they're very good humans. And
I have found that I was unable to really show up for them because of
not being able to show up for me. It's this kind of it's this
backwards thinking that we have. I think in this particular religion, you know,
when we take Christ, when he says, you know, the first
and greatest commandment is to love God and to love neighbors as you love yourself,
I think we forget the part of loving ourself, you know, because
if you look at this, he's like, you gotta love yourself first,
you know, hippie Jesus right, like, gotta love yourself first, or
it's gonna be really hard for you to love other people. It's like right
there in the text and verse, whatever reason I was, we were never
taught this. I still say this and Mormons are going yeah, but they
still go yeah, yeah, wait what you know, why why don't we
talk about this more? I know you can't love your kids until you love
yourselves, you know. And it's not they keep they tell you mothers,
you're the nurtures and you're you belong at home, You're naturally nurturing, which
is I don't know who that serves? Oh is it men? Okay,
maybe it does. So the men are like, yeah, you belong not
in public, you belong in the private spaces because you're so good at nurturing
children. And so if you're not like that kind of person like me,
I'm not like natural, I don't. So I had a lot of shame
that I'm still working through, which is as a human, make that gender,
no one would ever call me nurturing. And I think I'm like a
good person, you're great human, but I'm not. I'm not motherly,
you know what I mean? Say that women are automatically endowed with that is
so wildly and a personality yes, exactly. So many men who are the
yes to embrace curturing. Oh my god, yes, yeah. And I
have friends who are way more matronly than I am, like male friends,
just my nature of their personality, and it's so stupid. Yeah, we
turn that into a gendered thing. And the other like what you're saying about
being able to love your kids like so much more expensively. Now. That
is if you are locking not you, the proverbial you, If you are
locking up a huge part of yourself and keeping it behind a dam so that
it doesn't like overflow everything, i e. If you're repressing your sexuality,
your gender, whatever you're repressing, you are not able to show up fully
for anyone in your life. You're not you're able to show up to the
amount that is not behind the damn that you're afraid is going to break.
And that is not even that's just a factual statement. If you've locked away,
you know, thirty percent of yourself, then you can only show up
seventy percent. It's not possible to show up one hundred percent if you're locking
away a percentage of yourself. And people think that they're like, oh,
but I can do and it's like, no, you can't. That's math,
Like I'm sorry, like you can't. So I just think no one
has ever everyone is like stay together for or I think people are saying this
us, but the idea of staying together for the kids, and that's in
any marriage, not even having to do a sexuality, but just any Like
I have never in my entire life heard a grown child be like, I'm
so glad my parents stayed together for me. That was the right call and
it really worked out and I'm well adjusted. Like no, like it never
works. It, No, it never works. So I just we gotta
get that out of our lexicon, that phrasing of staying together for the kids.
No, because ince instead we get to model what it looks like for
each of us to lean into are the sect the soft animal of our body?
What is it? Mary Oliver's poem? Right, well, I thought
you were making that up. I was like, oh, I wish I
did. No, this is like, no, I don't think. I
think I read a lot. So I think a lot of my ideas come
from just a hodgepotch of a lot of things. But she says, you
know you lean into like uh, letting your body the soft animal of your
body, love what it loves, and we get to model that for our
kids. Yes, because they see that. I mean, there's no possible
way they can ignore the pain and suffering. I mean, so whether what
they're learning is on them, it does right that, Yeah, we're modeling
suffering and pain as the de facto way to be human or are we modeling?
Yeah? They unconsciously, Yeah, they're going to seek that out in
their relationships somehow, right, unconsciously because it's like, this is how you
have a marriage. You repress everything and you're unhappy. I must find this.
But like, yeah, your kids, whether it's now or years from
now, they are going to look at you as a figure of like such
strength and courage and like that's going to be so inspiring for them when they
inevitably hit some point in their life where they have to make a similarsh decision
like and just having you as that model is going to be so valuable for
them. Yeah, that's the hope, right, And I think continuing to
work with myself yeah, and I fully do. Yeah, that they know
that it's not and not everything's gonna always work out exactly the way we can
it. Then that's life and reality, and that's okay. I know they
work on binaries their baby brains right now. We aren't going to be fully
developed until what is it, twenty six, twenty seven? Right now,
all they can do is work in binaries, which is fine. And if
they feel safer in church with their father, which they all three of them
are, that's fine. I feel that they want to have a foundation that's
stable and safe and predictable, and that's that's beautiful, right And whenever they're
ready, they'll remember right that it's possible to hold space for all of it,
to hold space for the pain, and to not fear it. Don't
fear it'll it may not be all right, and that's okay, right,
And it's okay to feel fear. That's fine too. Feel it's fine for
them to feel disrupted right now in this period of transition. I feel disrupted.
I'm leading into that and I'll express it, but I also express like
deep, you know, sense of solidity and groundedness, because that is what
I feel like. I get to be in one body right now, living
one life that I'm not splitting the water. I get to be the water,
get to be the water and the water is safe and it's stable too,
it can be you know. I think the fear is anarchy. The
fear is like, oh great, mom's gonna go, and you know,
just be wild now. And I think some people do when they leave Mormonism.
My cousins when they left, you know, they did all sorts of
crazy things and then eventually they found their own happy medium, right, their
own groundedness. And when you've been locked up in a cage, you just
want to be like, Okay, where are all the corners of the world
that can go And and I think we're taught to fear that. We're taught
to be like, oh yeah, you're not now going to go and do
fentanyl and like kill yourself and be homeless, you know, because that's that's
the extreme. That's what we're like. You know, you either do this,
which is extreme, or you do something else that's extreme. I do
see that the linary too, yeah, right, we tell ourselves that yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that is religion also, right,
right, And that's kind of the trope of X. Like you know
a lot of Mormons who are just like want to you know, keep their
kids safe right from that world because they see that radical swing for a lot
of x Mormons. Yeah, and also they blame that on quote unquote the
world and not in fact, and maybe that's an expression of all the trauma
caused by their religion. It's like there's a lot of selective thinking in terms
of some of the reactionary things that might happen when people leave religion. Like
I wonder if that had to do at all what the relife as opposed to
just the fact that they left it. But that's a whole exactly, that's
a whole nother thing. That's a lot other thing. It's it's like,
what do we need? Fundamentally? I really enjoy leaving the religion and being
like, okay, what what is that the root of all this? It's
it is safety. We all want safety, we all want belonging. And
now it's creating a new template. And I've been very open with my eighteen
year old daughter about this, like, look, I'm I'm still trying to
figure it out. I don't have a template anymore. So what where is
my community? Where where is my safety? Where's my stability? And then
you know, where's the chosen family? Which I you know, I'm loving
that this concept exists of the chosen family, and I think we've done it
as humans throughout time. Is you know, like who I choose you,
you choose me? This is beautiful, this is we're interdependent, as therapy
would say, we're not codependent, oh, which I think that a lot
of us in religions are codependent. We're dependent. Yeah, I like interdependent,
Yeah, because we get to be individuated. We get to be our
own persons and then with each other, right, So yeah, I get
to find out who I am as me and love that perversion of myself.
And then I get to be in a family with someone else who's also doing
the work finding that with people who are who are with left high demand religions
in different pockets and spheres, and that feels really good. And most,
but most of my time right now is spent kind of repairing this this relationship
with my children. That's where I'm at mostly, and then doing some producing
of films that are no longer about religion and queerdness in God and goodness interesting
And is that like a direct result of do you feel like now that you
can live the way you want to live? You're like, I don't not
every movie I do has to be about, like I can express this in
my real life, So now my movies can be about I don't know,
race cars or whatever you're doing exactly. I don't know. It's about basketball.
Yeah, Oh my god, I'm close. Were really close. I
was in the ballpark. No, we're premiering in may actually, Sinco de
Mayo over premiering a film called Home Court in Little Tokyo in Los Angeles.
Yeah, and it's a documentary about yeah, the daughter of Cambodian refugees.
Oh my gosh, this is your first non queer, non religious movie.
It's quite possible. Yes, yes, wow that I'm producing. Yes,
that's amazing. This is a big question that I have wanted to ask you.
Uh. And it goes back to the movie that you produced about the
two lesbian Mormons who slept in separate bedrooms. So the kind of like reveal
in the middle of the short film is that these women do not have a
physically and not that's not true. They kiss their affectionate, they do not
have a sexual relationship, or that's what we're led to believe by the fact
that we see them say goodny to each other, kiss each other on the
cheek and then go to separate bedrooms. And we talked about kind of the
blowback sort of from that of people people's different feelings on that. And as
somebody who facilitates, I have talked about facilitating a coming out workshop and just
my regular group at the center that I facilitate, there are a number of
women in situations like yours was where they have realized that they're queer. They
are choosing to not act on that because they are in a marriage, often
with kids, but sometimes even though there aren't kids, they're still choosing to
be in the marriage. And that was at the time that I met you,
what you were choosing to do. And I my feeling has been and
Nicole and I both sort of expressed this feeling in that episode has been like
I don't know other people's lives and it is not my place to be.
Like you're gonna be miserable if you continue to do that, and you shouldn't
do that, and if you've realized this thing about yourself, like you owe
it to yourself to get out of the marriage and live your life, and
all of these things that you now have done since the last time that we
spoke, and I guess my big question is like, am I wrong?
Like where is the line between those of us who are on the other side
of coming out thinking we potentially should say that, but at the same time
being like, I don't know, there's a marriage and there's kids involved,
Like should I let them come to it in their own time? Should I
try to push it a little? Like I have always aired on the side
of not pushing it, because my feeling is if they are going to come
to it, which a lot of people do and which you did, they
will come to it in their time and on their own, and then you
just be there to support them, but don't try to crowbar it. But
I don't know, is that wrong? Do you wish that somebody had crowbarred
it a little so it could have happened sooner? Or like? This is
obviously just a personal You can't answer for everybody and it's individual to the individual.
But I struggle with that as someone who facilitates women in these positions.
So I was wondering what you're fighting was, Yeah, it's contextualized by what
your relationship was, Like the space in which you're having these conversations matters a
lot. Who are you in relation to them in that moment, in that
space, and then in that time, I think matters a lot. As
as a film maker with participants, with people we care about deeply, we
were upfront about who we are. I am as someone who's struggling myself with
understanding the different pieces of me and how they show up in this world and
we And I am interested in your story because it might be something that I
that resonates with me right now, because I want to stay faithful as Yeah,
I want to stay faithful to this religion that I was raised in that
I believe in. And your story, you know, is important I think
to share because you're not alone. I think we always need to show up
right in our as our most authentic selves in any room. So you showing
up as the version of you that's listening and going. I have had so
much experienced. Look, I have this podcast where I've interviewed like hundreds of
people at this point, and I've done reado's and followed up and I'm showing
here's the math, right, here's the people that I talked to three years
ago, and then where are they today. I think you could do that
sort of you could approach it that way. Let's say as a social scientist
and say, look, I'm going to collect all the day. This is
something I hope someone's doing right now. All the all the Mormons who are
in mixed orientations were interviewed. I mean there was very clear. It was
on a website. There was all these videos. Look, I am gay,
but I'm also choosing to do the Mormon way. And a word on
the street is like none of them are married anymore? Yeah, right,
And word on the street is like, I'm close to one hundred percent of
these people and there might be thirty forty fifty of them are now you know,
are now no longer doing what they were espousing to do and hoping that
they could continue to do. And that's math. So so it depends,
right, if you know, you have a dear friend and you're like,
hey, this is I understand that this is where you are right now.
What is your greatest fear? And if they're and you're like, you don't
have to answer that, we don't have to answer anything. First of all,
right, that our friends ask us. I have friends who I have
asked these questions of and they're not ready, and that's okay, right,
And then those friendships tend to fall away. I have learned over time because
I'm someone who welcomes the hardest questions. Ask me the hardest question you have
ask you know, I welcome it, right and I I welcomed it when
I was in grad school when someone's like, are you even Asian? Are
even? Like? What you just said was so racist? And I was
like, oh damn, Like I feel a lot of shame and embarrassment,
but I was like, God, thank you, thank you for asking that
question. Who am I as an Asian? Just recently, there was a
movie called joy Ride and they were like it was like, but you know,
have you seen it? It's like, uh, I needed to be
road Trip. We'll talk about it. Yeah, crass road trip movie about
four Asian Asian American women, like different types of Asian America, Like this
is the first of it's kind. And then I finally can be the child
that goes, oh, I'm most like this person. I am most I
am most like the whitewashed Asian that's me. And I'd be like, oh,
yay, you know there is no stereotypical Asian like I get to see
my more and more right in the last like five years. I think all
of a sudden, there's a lot of these representations. So I am a
whitewashed Asian. I get to be like, that's who I am because someone
asked me the hard question once, right, and that's great. Like do
I get to stay want? Not necessarily, but I really want people to
come up to me and be like, I want them to be real with
me. I do. I welcome it, but not everyone. Not everyone
wants that, So it just depends, right, So if you get to
feel it out for yourself when you're in the company of someone you think could
be happier, and we want that for each other. We want to connect
better, right, because I mean we're built to connect and for them to
like not want you know, you see them disconnecting from themselves, from their
partners, from their children, from their world, from you, and it's
painful. It's painful to watch. I know, I know because part of
me does wonder if like, back when I met you in Freakin twenty fifteen
or whatever, and then we were like at the Denver Film Festival. Then
we were like having drinks that little after party with everybody, and you were
like, oh, here's my situation. And part of me is like,
should I just have said, uh, you're gone only of your os,
but like I just met you, so like I couldn't. Should I have
taken back my drink and been like, if you realize that you only like
women, let me save you nine years? Like ye, Like should I
have like done that? I don't know, Like would that have been helpful?
Like absolutely, yes, so I should have. So that's a lesson
for me then, is like I do think because you know, because we
get to be so honest, but yeah, I am so kind of conflict
averse and like like let tend to want to default of people finding things in
their own time and like a gentle approach and stuff. I think that I
do maybe air too much on the side of like I support whatever you do,
even if in my mind I'm like I don't know about it. It's
like, yeah, I should maybe trust people's own strength more and like be
more upfront. I will say, at the time, I didn't have this
podcast, so I didn't have the data to backup my feeling true, right,
this is not You're a different person now, you have different information.
You have talked to so many people, and I definitely want to next time
I'm in LA, I definitely want to definitely want to pick your brain on
what you've learned, you know, many hundred interviews that you've done. Yeah,
you know, because I think that that to me is very That's just
that feels my kind of social scientist need to know, you know. And
part of the creation of that book was for my need to know, and
and I need to know stems from my need to not feel so alone.
So it comes down to that too. And I want to know myself.
But you didn't know that about me. You didn't know I was someone that
welcomes. Look you're not. You're not the only in that situation I would
have been versus As a facilitator, though, that is something that I should
think about, you know, like just maybe maybe asking more questions, like
me, have you thought of things this way? Have you thought of that?
And I think I do it more as of now now we're talking about
me and my favorite topic. But yeah, I think I do do it
more as a facilitator when I have that capacity and I know someone better and
we have the space and they're in a space specifically to sort of receipt,
right, But yeah, it just interesting. I think it's okay if you're
coming from a place of like, oh my god, I think you're so
dumb that no one's going to be receptive. And I've had people when I
share my story go like, oh my gosh, you're so dumb, like
you should be like you know, you're going to leave yourself eventually. Yeah.
So I've met those types and I'm not going to be receptive to that.
I've met people who are genuinely like, oh my gosh, I'm crying
for you right now in your situation, and I just want you to know
that this is your journey. Also, my experience is that it's this is
not going to work long term. And I go, thank you very much,
thank you for your feedback. You know, I'm listening to you,
and I am not ready to do anything about what you just said. And
that's okay, and we just wish each other the best in part ways.
Right. So, I was I was given an opportunity actually to leave earlier,
and I said no to that. I said no to that and to
someone I loved a lot, and I just told her I am not ready.
I'm not ready. I knew in my body I wasn't ready. There
was, there's certain things. There's a lot of complexity and processes you know,
that come front that lead to this decision. And so for people,
you know, I love it when people are like, oh yeah, you're
just another one of those post Mormons, you know, like who are thoughtless
and decide to do what's easy. Yeah, Like I'm taking the easy path
to leave Mormonism because they're the martyrs, because martyrdom is beautiful and ideal.
The self videlation, you know, in like Judeo Christianity is is like so
revered and honored that the doing that, the that the leaving is somehow making
me less worthy, right of, like I don't respect or something. I
mean, you just laugh at that, because I personally know how freaking difficult
this is. But I've been that person. I've been on that person on
the other side, the Mormon that's like, oh yeah, the people who
leave there taking the easy route, sure that they're lazier. Somehow I have
I'm trying to give myself kindness and grace, like for my past self who
used to judge, who used to judge? Right, the women who left
their marriages. Because when the making of that movie, I was still in
that space of like, oh, the more the more respectful thing to do
is to stick it out with your husband. And I was that, and
I was judgmental. I was judgmental of women who though, because if you
feel like you can't get out of a situation, you have to tell yourself
and make yourself believe that that is the noble and best thing to do,
because it's like that's what you're locked in too. So I just think that
makes sense. Yes, it is safety right we have, but there's that
deep, deep part of our magdalah and brain stunt that says you need to
survive at all costs and that that's how we've evolved as humans. Is what's
the safest situation? Do I stay with the pack or is the pack I'm
safe now and I have to leave the pack and go find a different pack.
You know, that's very mammalian. I'm just I mean, I don't
know. I'm just I am glad that you, in your own time,
And it sounds like at the right time, found your way out of it.
But not even just I don't want to prioritize out of it. It's
more that you found your way to you like you're saying and I think that
like everything you did, like was helping you to do, like editing,
putting this book out into the world was a choice. It's not like that
happened to you, like you were actively and that was a step that led
to another step that So it's not like you're passive, and like you were
taking the steps that you needed to take in the time that you needed to
take them the way you needed to take them to get to this point.
And everyone, yes, journey with that looks different now. I just in
this moment, realized that that was an act of love for myself. Yes,
even electing, even before that, electing to go on a one person
immersive show that you know is a simulated date with a woman is a choice
and takes courage. But seriously, like someone at a different point in their
life would not have had the courage to do that. That would have been
like too scary and too real and too like what if I like this and
it makes me regret like not being able to do this for real, Like
I feel like all of the things that you were doing were like little choices
getting you to the big choice. But you can't just jump to the big
choice like a lot of people might want you to or like the people who
are going like, oh, you're so dumb, like they're not seeing all
the little steps that need to happen to get there. Right, we don't
see the little other things, right if for someone we don't we don't see
all the complexities that someone has to grapple with outside of orientation. Like I
think this be proud and be queer. I love that we celebrate in June,
but I've always had a hard time with it because it's like, well,
there's more to me than my orientation, Yes, a lot more,
And I love that that's similarly, yeah, a piece of me. Cool,
this is this is a piece of me. That's a big piece of
me. And I'm so glad I get to be that. And I'm so
glad I can be so out and proud and and join my other you know,
because you know, it is it is a struggle. It is a
real and like and and and it was a real deprivation and it still continues
to be a deprivation that you know, heteronormative society places on us. And
it's something worth celebrating and and and right, like our humans are complex and
there's so much that I want to celebrate. I want to sell celebrate may
Api Heritage month. Yeah American, right, I got may I got you,
you know, Yeah, I want to I want to celebrate the right
true you know religion. And I'm glad, you know, because at one
point I was religious. And I mean we get to celebrate at all all
those all those aspects of ourselves, and we get to celebrate my you know,
our our our black friends, you know, and we get to sell
at each other because when you know, when we do that, that's the
celebration of all of all of our humanity, all the aspects and all the
different unique identified intersectionality. Yeah, it's right. And I'm learning, you
know, about folks with Down syndrome now, and I'm like, you know,
like I never stopped. You know, this is the beauty of life
as we continue to learn about each other. That's what I love about like
these collections and I you know, I love to do these collaborations, you
know, in films because I get to like meet more people who are different
and who are who have different struggles that I want to hear about. I
want it, like I want to learn about it because because that just in
the in the sharing of it. I think we get to love each other
more. You know, share more of you means I get to love more
of you. I agree. I mean that's why I have a podcast,
Like I just like I love hearing people stories. I love telling stories,
and I love hearing people stories like that's and that's such an old school like
gathered around the fire, pre technology, Like that's just like human instinct that
some of us have really strongly. I think. I think that's so true,
and it's hard for me to realize that not everyone loves that. Not
everyone. Yeah, yeah, people are driven by different things, and I
think you and I are similar in that. I do think that we especially
have that thing where it's like we want to hear stories and tell me more.
Like I think you're someone who would be like like you, you could
hear the hard things too about yourself. I know that ye bring it on,
tell me I suck. No. That is so that's very true,
and like it's so funny because the way we met that show that I was
doing what I loved about it was I was just collecting people's stories and hearing
people's really like vulnerable, raw intimate stories, and I was shocked at how
much they were telling me, just like a stranger. And then I was
like, oh, that's why they're telling it to me, because I am
a stranger, and because they we have this like little artifice and it feels
safe. So like people were telling me like really sometimes really heavy stuff and
I was like, Wow, what a cool my character and me I was
like a receptacle like these like stories and it was really cool. Wow,
have you thought about writing a book about it? I mean, I've thought
about writing books about a million things. But the thing about books is you
gotta like sit down and write them. That's hard, that's disciplined. Yeah,
but yeah, I was wondering before we rerap up, do you want
to speak at all to what it's been like? You mentioned that you were
dating women, and it sounds like you are, you are exploring, or
whatever word you want to use, So like, what what has it been
like? Because again, you were monogamous, you and your partner, you
and your ex in the marriage the entire twenty plus years. Is that?
Am I right? Yeah? Well, towards the end there was an opportunity
for me to be in a romantic relationship with another woman, and our husbands
were both aware that we were gonna be in a way kind of like best
friends in a romantic way, and so couple as well. Yeah, yeah,
and so that was my ex like to call it the great experiment.
And I think we learned a lot. We learned a lot about ourselves and
about each other. I think that was a necessary step. I think that's
a very important part of this, this whole story, this whole arc.
It gets a little tricky because now I'm involving like three other people. Sure,
yeah, so now I'm involving three other people, and this is not
necessarily my own story anymore. However, we all you know, I felt
like we were all very responsible and very ethical. I guess that's what they
call it ethical non anogamy. Yeah, so were probably being helped by it
in ways as well. It's not just like this is all about you and
you're involving three people. They're probably also like, whoa, I'm involving three
people. It's like, I assume everyone was doing it for a reason.
Yes, this is this is true. So that was that was a couple
of years and then then there Yeah, so we learned a lot and everyone's
on their own journey now all four of us on our own kind of individual
journey. That's a whole episode on its own. Yeah, what was that
the woman who you had briefly mentioned where you had the opportunity to eventually Yeah,
okay, but it wasn't the right time. It wasn't the right time.
Yeah. So here I hear you. I feel like I am the
queen of getting myself into situations where it's like, ah, the timing sound
so yeah, yeah, so yes, so there was so just yeah,
just you know, clarify that piece. And yo. I went on her
app for a hot minute. I met on many, many, many dates,
and I learned about myself and then realized I have no time for this,
okay, like in the learning. In the learning, I'm like,
what do I really want right now? While I want to reimagine my my
relationship with my children and lean into that more. And and then, miracle
of miracles, my dear friend from years ago we met in a like a
Mormon feminist retreat, came back into my life. She was divorced and didn't
I didn't, she didn't, and was leaning into her queerness. And so
we've been dating this past year and like long long distance and it's amazing.
Yeah, like so no idea. Yeah, well, you know, my
god, so you have been seeing someone for like a year ish, right,
we've been we've been seeing each other and like same experiences post mormon,
right, like with kids and kids who are older, and yeah, well
you know, different human but like very similar backgrounds and like it's it's been
really wonderful, like like little gabies, right, little post mormon gabies,
just kind of figuring out relationship that is so similar to my cousin's story that
you and I talked about very first time we ever met. Yeah, like
that's just wild. Oh my god, I'm so happy for you. And
so long distance, which also is very gay. That's like a lesbian trope.
So congratulations for hitting one of the Yeah, the long distance queer lady
relationship is like that's very okay. I don't know about these tropes. Yeah,
I mean I know about the U haul trope. I know about U
haul, but also LDR that's a big one. That's a big Really is
that just news that just recent? Because your cousin and her partner met,
they weren't long Yeah they met, I think, yes, yes, but
no, but for and I don't mean, it's particular to queer Mormons,
but just queer women in general. Long distance relationships are huge because we love
pining and we love writing, you know, writing long letters or in this
case, emails. But I feel like it naturally leans insuf But so many
queer female couples will meet online or whatever and then have like this rich relationship
online and then like not even meet each other sometimes until like a year into
the like this is just a very common experience or meeting like a but you
live on different sides of the world, and then you you have this song
distance relationship for years and then somebody like moves it, like, yeah,
this is very this is a thing in the in the queer female community.
So you are in your company, Okay, yeah, very much. That's
so exciting. I love that. Yeah, it's it's I you know,
it's been morally wonderful for me to feel what it is to like fall deeply
in love with someone who feels so safe and who loves me for all of
me, and who is also very curious and expansive right and so like to
be And this is not even outside of orientation, like like late in life
like relationships are so beautiful, right, like, because we know we know
so much about ourselves, you know that we right that there's not we know
we know what we value and how like how boundaries work, right, and
there's so much ideally, yes, so we could just lean into the joy
more than the kind of the strug. You know a lot of that struggle
that you have earlier, older and more tired, so you have less tolerance
for like drama and stuff like that. So it tends to be even more
like stable. Oh totally, yeah, yes, exactly. I know.
I don't even want to watch it on television anymore. It just doesn't interest
me. I know. Yeah, I don't have time, and neither does
She is so so great. I had no idea. I love that that
is so that is so so cool. Yeah, yes, it's part.
It's just a part of the I think, the wonderfulness of Like I did
not expect this at all. It was like between kids and work. There's
really no say it happens. Yeah, when you get off the apps and
you're like I'm going to focus on my Cambodian basketball movie and all of a
sudden, this person's like hello, right, right, right, Yeah,
that's amazing, right, Wow, I really love that. And you got
to have the experience of being on the goddamn apps, which is such a
rite of passage and like, so you got to have that weird, weird
experience. Yes, then yeah, but then you met someone more organic.
It is weird, that's the dream. It is so weird. I've never
updated before, And yes, I do like the her app. I mean
I thought my friends helped me, my queer friends help put my profile up
and everything, so that was fun to do together. And did you say
it? Because I feel like people always have this question. Did you put
in your profile like that you had three kids and were recently separated and mom,
so you did the Yeah, You're like me, I feel like we're
it's putting it all up front. I want you to know it. Yeah,
right, I was a super overshare. Yeah. Absolutely. Some would
say that's not oversharing and that's just like necessary information if you're gonna swipe right,
like you should know this going in. Yeah. I think I think
it's totally a matter of comfort. Like some people are like, I need
to wait till I'm sitting face to face with someone to tell them X y
Z, And some of us are like I'm putting that in my profile,
so you know it going in. But yeah, it's a matter, I
know. I just like, no one's gonna want this, like but no
surprising people did, people did, people did like they did the whatever direction
it was. Is it right? Is it right? I think it's right.
It's okay. Long. I don't know, it's been it's been very
long. I guess it's been over a year, but a lot has happened.
Oh my god. You know, we live. We learn the most
about ourselves when we're in relationship with others, and this is the most intimate
kind of relationship you can possibly have, as with someone who you know,
who is like that close, who is that like that romantic sexual, all
of the things, and like, oh and then we read Bell Hooks,
like all about Love is out a lesbian trope where we read books together about
relationships. Oh yeah, okay, you totally you got to read some.
I feel like if you were reading like Glenn and Doyle books, that would
be like the ultimate. I think we read that separately, many many it
still counts. But yeah, reading any books together is pretty lesbian. I
feel like I loved Bill Hooks All About Love. I read that it's not
so I haven't read it. It was read. I'm going to give you
all about Love by Bell Looks because you, yes, I am. I'm
going to go to La very soon, so I need to read books again
like an adult. This is an easy one. It's not very long.
Good because yeah, it's been a while I cracked open a book. This
is so. I cannot believe how much you have packed into less than two
years since we spoke. That is unbelievable achievements in personhood, in life and
relationships. Just like, I'm so impressed. I'm so I'm so happy for
you, and I feel like you seem happy and you identifies you and you
and you became water. I think that's that's my water. That was a
good tweet. That was a good tweet. Recap, Thank you, thank
you. I can't wait. As soon as we log off, I'll tweet
it. Jed, do you want to give like social media or anything like
that for folks to find you or the upcoming film and just like anyway that
folks can know what you're up to. Absolutely, I have an Instagram,
I'm on Facebook, like women of my generation are. You can find me
at jen Lee Smith on Facebook, I welcome, welcome, you know,
connections, right, I love it. I love hearing from people. I
love getting to know people. That's my favorite. And on Instagram you can
find me at Bewilder Film. That's the like be Wilder. You know,
you can say it both ways, Bewilder and be Wilder. It's from Roomy's
Sell your Cleverness by Bewilderment. That's the name of my film production company,
Bewildered Film. I was from m h are well read good God. People
on Twitter all right, and I, as you know, for the last
time for a little bit, I am at Lauren Flanns on Twitter and Blue
Sky I'm Lauren Underscore Flowns on Instagram. The podcast remains at coming Out Pod.
As I mentioned, I will still be maintaining the podcast Twitter and Instagram
hashtag is coming Out Pod and the last time for a while. Shout out
to my phenomenal patrons. I am so grateful to all of you, carmel
Ka Simone, Cayenne, Michelle l Adri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran
Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Hernandez and beyond Clexa dot com. If you
did not hear my little mini episode. One of the things I said is
please, please, please, if you are a patron, go ahead and
cancel your patronage while I'm doing this hiatus. I don't want to take your
money while I'm not producing new episodes. That wouldn't be right. So please
go ahead and do that. But yeah, in the meantime, while I'm
on this hiatus, if you've never rated the podcast five stars, now would
be a great time to do that. And then when I returned to the
pod, I'll be like, look at all these new ratings and maybe even
reviews on iTunes. Uh so yeah, But folks, like I said,
this is not a final episode, because the pod will be back at some
point when I have more fuel, both emotionally and financially. But I'm so
glad to be starting this pause on a Reducs episode. There are one of
my favorite things to do, and to get to do it with you,
Jed, is just so exciting. You know my fascination with the Mormon religion
based on my own personal history with it. I'm just so happy to hear
where your life is at and how everything is going. And this is truly
yeah, delightful, really and Joy, Thank you so much for having me
back. Thank you. I have been wanting to have you back ever since
I sort of got a sense that there had been a shift in things.
I was like, oh my god, I need to help Jen back to
talk about it. And I'm so grateful to you for just being really open
about all of it. I think that's sooch Oh. I'm so happy to
yeah, so happy, happy to share, always to connect, and this
has been a great therapy session for me as well. Yeah, doctor Laurence,
I will be requesting payment through Venmo, so keep an eye out for
that. Thank you all so so much for listening, and I will see
you the next time I see you. Bye bye.