WEBVTT

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Hey, everybody, welcome to Coming
Out Pod. This is Lauren. So

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if you if you did not see
the little mini bonus episode a couple of

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weeks ago, this is going to
be the last episode of the podcast,

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not forever, not doing a big
final episode, but the pod is going

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to be taking a hiatus. I
will almost certainly be back to do at

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least a couple episodes during Pride Month, but this will be the last episode

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for a while. So to that
end, a queer root shout out that

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I have been saving. Queer root
shout out this week to you if your

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queer root is Tatiana Maslani from Orphan
Black. Orphan Black is my favorite TV

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show of all time. It is
very very queer and without giving too much

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away, the actress tatianas it was
a gorgeous, sexy name. The show

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the top. The topic the show
is about clones. So she plays a

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whole bunch of clones. She plays
like eight or ten different characters and they

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all look very different, they have
different accents, different, A lot of

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them are queer, one is lesbian, one's bisexual. She plays a trans

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man clone and I love I love
this as a queer root shout out because

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a lot of folks on this podcast
have talked about when they finally come out

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as queer and then they'll like date
their first person of the gender they've secretly

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always wanted to date, and if
there's no spark, they're like, oh

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my god, what if I'm wrong? What if I wasn't queer? And

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it's like, no, no,
no, You're not going to be attracted

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to every single person of that gender. You have to still find the right

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person. But see Orphan Black is
a great litmus test because you can be

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like, which of these many Tatiana
maslanis am I attracted to? And if

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you're attracted to any of them,
you are in fact gay. I'm sorry,

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that's the rule, So shout out
to you if any one of the

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clones played by Tatiana Maazlani is your
clear root y'all. I am doing my

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first solo Redux episode, which is
one of my favorite things that Nicole and

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I used to do. It's when
we would have a guest back after a

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number of years, So I am
here today with return guest gen Lee.

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Hi Jen. What's up? Jen
is a producer and writer and at the

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time the Jen was first on the
podcast, she was Jen Lee Smith,

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So slight name modification there, I'm
going to give a little recap. So

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Jen was on episode two six back
in July of twenty twenty two, which,

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as we talked about, is less
than two years ago, but feels

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like a lot or to both of
us, it's been a long couple of

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years. Yeah, yeah, a
lot has transpired. But so Jen was

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actually on as part of a dual
guest episode. The other guest sad episode

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was named Carrie Spencer Prey, and
Jen and Carrie were the editors of a

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book that had just come out called
I Spoke to You with Silence, Essays

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from Queer Mormons of Marginalized genders,
And we talked a lot in that episode

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about the intersections of queerness and Mormonism
and being non white and a queer Mormon,

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and how that was the queer Mormon
space was very white, and how

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Jen was trying to do something to
represent all the other people in that space

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who did not have the same sort
of front facing like, I don't know

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publicity as all of the white queer
representation representation, Baby, how do I

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have a queer podcast? And I
couldn't come up with a word representation.

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That's that's why we need to take
a little hiatus. So I always give

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a little recap so in case you
maybe didn't hear that episode originally, or

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it was a very long time ago
you don't remember it. So brief recap

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of Jen and Jen's coming out story. Jen and correct me if I get

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any of this wrong. You went
to BYU Bringham Young University. You were

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married to a man in your early
twenties. At the time that we recorded

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in July of twenty twenty two.
You'd been married for I believe twenty one

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years. You had three kids.
Now. You had gone to grad school

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at UCLA in two thousand and eight, which was when you had come out

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like fully to yourself, and more
importantly, you did come out to your

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husband, to your partner, and
you two were in You and your husband

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were in a monogamous relationship, although
you noted in the podcast you did not

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necessarily think you were intrinsically monogamous,
but that was something that he needed,

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and so that's what you were doing, and you were you had both chosen

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to at the time to stay married
even though you had come out to him,

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and this was not like a secret
or anything. But you described your

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relationship at the time as primarily an
emotional and spiritual relationship that you and your

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husband had. And then during lockdown, as a lot of people did,

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you ended up leaving the LDS church, but you were still you were still

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like attending services back in twenty twenty
two. You were going with your kids

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and your partner, but you had
left kind of the I guess ideology of

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it, if we want to say, so you were in sort of like

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a gray area maybe with it,
but those were kind of the basics.

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Yeah, and most of them.
Did I get it? Did I know?

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You capsulated a lot of complexity in
like ninety seconds. Well, I

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took notes. I listened to the
episode this morning, and I cook notes

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on my phone. And now here's
here's perhaps the most important bit. Uh

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So, when I asked you,
how do you identify at the top of

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that episode, Uh, well,
you you noted Asian American, which has

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always been an important part of your
identity. And then in terms of gender

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sexuality, all of the things pertaining
specifically to coming out, you identified as

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demi queer and homo romantic. Uh
and so, yeah, that is the

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recap You're like, oh, interesting, do you remember using those identifiers at

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that point in time. I'm wondering
if they've changed it. I forgot about

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the demi, but yeah, I
think that I I identify as queer.

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Forget why I added the demi in
front. Well, he's pretty accurate.

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Yeah, you kind of talked about
how, you know, you were struggling

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with what so many folks in hetero
presenting marriages, right struggle with. So

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you were sort of I believe,
if I remembering what you said correctly,

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it was you said demi queer because
like you were, you were queer and

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you use the word queer and stuff
like that. But you identified as demi

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queer because you were in this marriage
to a CIS hetero man with three kids

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that looked very you know, so
you kind of like put the demi there

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because as an acknowledgment I think of
the structure that you were in. But

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it sounds like now you're identifying the
demi has fallen perhaps by the wayside,

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and now you you're using queer.
You know what's interesting, I think post

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that time, and we'll probably get
to this in our conversation, is I

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identify as me? Fine? I
mean this and like this sounds very anti

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clomatic, but I finally get to
be one person, and so I get

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to just show up as me,
do you know what I mean? Like

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yeah, absolutely, Like before I
was it was really many many, many

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decades of like wow, what what
is what? What is? What is

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the glass to contain this water?
You know? And now I get just

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to be the water and I'm less
about the glass. That makes sense.

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That is so beautiful. That's that
should be like on a sampler, like

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embroidered on a that's a beautiful Yeah, I love. Do you want an

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embroider? Yeah, I think we
should do. I can't embroider for it's

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a lot of embroidery because it's a
lot of words. M If you embroider,

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you know, I do make so
much sense though, because I feel

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like and I don't I'm not speak
I don't mean to speak for you,

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but I feel like we were saying
off Mike, you maybe felt like you

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had to add Quali fires to a
lot of your identity for a long time

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because we I had noted that you
identified as Asian American and felt that that

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was important to say because in the
Mormon space, like it was so predominantly

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white, so like you wanted to
like note, even hey, on this

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audio where you can't see me,
I would like people to know, you

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know that I'm Asian American as so
identifying as DEMI queer, being like,

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Okay, I get that maybe this
family doesn't look like but I want you

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like that's important to me that you
know, and using words like homo romantic,

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like yes, I am married to
a man, but I do identify

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as homo romantic and I have these
feelings like so it feels like you your

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whole life have perhaps had to use
a lot of micro labels and qualifiers and

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like be very specific about identity because
it might not seem to people not looking

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that closely that they're there and they're
really important. Yeah. Yeah, this

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is so true. It's so interesting. It does feel like million years ago

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because since then I've I've dated women
only and family identifying as well. So

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I guess that makes me Okay,
does that make me pan Yeah? I

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guess it does pansexual. Yeah this
is huge. Yeah, okay, So

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let's start from like around Sober of
twenty twenty two, and you're like,

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I don't what was it? If
it helps, it was like right when

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your book had come out, right, So yeah, So I guess from

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the time that that book came out, did stuff start to like get shaken

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up or anything, because suddenly you
had this book published that was very front

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facing, like queer, you know
what I mean? Like, did that

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like start anything or was that just
coincidence? Like did that start getting you

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thinking or like, well, I
think I've really I am a very experiential

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person. I need to be in
the field right and doing the thing,

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and that's how I learned best.
I think some people can read a book

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and be like, oh, yeah, I understand, But for me,

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I feel like I need to be
in the space trying to still be the

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you know, you know, Carrie
was married to a woman and not actively

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practicing Mormonism. I was still semi
you know, practicing and in a hetero

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relationship. So I felt like that
was a good pairing for us. Definitely

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not it just happened to be that
way. I didn't do that for marketing

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reasons, but and it actually did. Right, there are folks who are

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like, oh, okay, well
I feel safe with her because she's choosing

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what the church wants her to choose, which is to stay married and not

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you know, act out my my
orientation is still kind of I think the

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standard line to be a good Mormon
who is queer just don't have sex with

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women like you. Yeah, and
you'll be good. And so I was

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playing that role, and in that
role, it didn't quite it kind of

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was that story. Remember that story
I wrote in the book that was kind

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of funny, the one you made
me read out, Yeah, I'm sorry

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that I make When the podcast I
had to go, I can't listen to

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myself read i skip skip skipship.
But yeah, no, of course I

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remember. Yeah, of course.
Well that was like me being experiential,

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like, oh, now I'm in
a space where I get to pretend I'm

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dating a woman and I'm making that
choice. Oh my gosh, I'm feeling

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emotional. I hope I made so
many people women question their sexuality by doing

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that immersive show. That was not
the goal going in, but that is

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retroactively, I hope that happened.
I hope so too. I hope women

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start coming up being like, oh, you were Emily, the one that

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you know, but you're so but
think who remembers the name of the first

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I did? Okay, so you
were that experience, and then I was

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in experience with the room with people
being like, yeah, I'm the and

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then I was like, this doesn't
feel right in my skin. So it

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was that being in that in that
book tour that really and I don't know

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where our podcast was in the middle
of of the you know, the book

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launching, but I really started to
say, this doesn't feel right in my

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body. It started getting itchy,
right, like this is not the stick.

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I'm not and I'm showing up in
the world as this and it doesn't

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feel right and I can't makes a
lot of sense. Yep, yeah,

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and it was and then you know, I'm not going to get into it,

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but I basically then my next step
was to go no contact with my

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parents because I was realizing how much
over time, right as we do it

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was going through life, and how
much of my Mormonism and my hetero forced

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force mormonism force heteronormativity was a result
of being extensions of them, and that

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comes from narcissistic trauma. I'm not
diagnosing them, but they have a lot

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of complex PTSD, which could lead
to a lot of that usually leads to

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a lot of narcissistic traits. Anyway, that being said the like a good

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daughter of people with narcissistic traits,
I went no contact. That's what we

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call it. In my Facebook group
of like two hundred thousand people who are

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the Sisterhood of Daughters of Narcissistic there's
a lot. You're in good company,

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I think, yeah, I think
there's more than two hundred thousand. I

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have to say, it's a very
common thing, and we have to eventually

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realize that the healthiest thing for a
lot of us to do is to divorce

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them or to go and see no
contact. And after that, literally a

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week after that, I I called
it. I told my my husband,

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I can't do this anymore. We
can't, we can't be married anymore.

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So that was that was the order. Then spoke to her no contact with

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parents and separation. Wow okay,
yeah, in that order. It felt

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exactly happened kind of quickly. It
sounds like very quickly. Oh yeah,

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it all happened in the summer.
That was just that was just what like

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that was right after we recorded then, yeah, wow, wow, okay,

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Oh my gosh, how did that
go? How did your husband receive

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that? Because again this was someone
who he knew. You had been out

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to him since like two thousand and
eight, so this was knowledge that he

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had. He knew, Yeah,
but how did it go? How did

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he take it once you were like
for real cities? This is right well

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to his credit and he's I would
say, his personality is such where he

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would have and he even admitted this
recently. He would have kept going because

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of duty and loyalty and his value
quite high up when his value system is

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order and obedience, which is very
high up in the Mormon you know value

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system right of any high demand religion, Order which is in order at all

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costs makes you very good soldiers.
And religions love soldiers, right, and

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so to be a good and I
was. I don't think I was ever

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a very good soldier, just my
personality was not conducive to that. But

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I wanted to be a good Mormon. I wanted to be accepted, I

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wanted belonging. I wanted like all
my people people right. My blood relations

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were in the religion, and I
married into a family that was also very,

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very loyal to Mormonism. But I
think I dared to ask, you

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know, at what cost? And
I think over the years I kept asking

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that question at what costs? And
I think the moment that I said that

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we can't do this anymore, I
think he he had a moment of clarity

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as well around that, like that
the cost is too high for both of

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us. That's what's so interesting is
that he was also sacrificing his happiness and

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his you know, ability to like
have intimacy in his life. So it's

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just like, it's just that grip
is so tight on people, right,

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they'll they put it above their own
happiness. You're both doing that, Like

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it's so sad, and I'm glad
that you. Oh, well he has

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he. I probably won't get too
much into this, but I think there

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was one time he did say,
you know, I've been thinking about this

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and if I was gay and I
needed to be with men, I would

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still be married to you. I
would still try to make it work.

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And I believe him because that is
that he values. And sure, right,

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but it's worth noting you did do
that for over you know, for

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like about like over twenty years.
You did that for over twenty years.

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And he also it is easy to
say that, but he did not have

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the experience of going through that and
know, like we can all say,

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well, I would do this in
that situation, but yeah, so yeah,

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I don't know. We'll never know, we'll never know, we'll never

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know. But he he has now
found a lot of peace with his world,

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happy world of luck, with the
lack of tension. I'm the only

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one that provides attention really, and
also just the disruption that I've caused to

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our children, and that's been kind
of a really hard thing for me since

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then. So that's one of the
major challenges, is, you know,

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like, how do I put my
children through this? And I think many,

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many, many queer parents have asked
themselves this question, right, like,

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am I such a shitty person that
I would mess up? You know?

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And I cannot let you say you're
shitty Perston at this point, even

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if you're speaking hypothetically as if you
are questioning it, just like I do

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just want to be like, don't
say that. It's just not true.

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Like I've seen you put your children
and I don't even know you very well,

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but I have seen you always put
your children as like first and foremost

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in terms of everything that you've been
dealing with. So I just don't think

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that's and you know, what's interesting
is that I have been able to love

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them so much more since, Yeah, feeling right in my own body and

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skin. And yeah, I said
this recently because I was invited to speak

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about the book again in Utah.
This is only a few weeks ago,

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and they did it for February and
like Black History Month, and this was

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another part actually another podcast called breaking
Down Patriarchy, and my friend Amy was

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featuring a lot of her guests who
are not white, and of course this

250
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is a big deal in Sandy,
Utah, in white women land, to

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be like, let's really lean into
like, you know, because there's a

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lot of white Mormon feminists who forget
sometimes that there are also people of color

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within their faith and get to be
reminded once in a while by folks like

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me. I'm okay playing that role
because I think it's needed. I think

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it's needed in a homogeneous community,
especially a high demand and also very powerful.

256
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Let's not forget it's very very powerful
economically and politically politically hugely. Yeah,

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this is a religion that has done
very well for itself, right,

258
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and so we need to remember that
these are the power dynamics that we're working

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with, and they actively choose to
forget people of color because it's almost within

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it's within the doctrine that people don't
talk about anymore. But at one point,

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Mormons really believe that there is a
hierarchy of race. Yeah. I

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remember learning about that. Yeah,
I mean it was literally like a vision

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that a prophet had that you know, before we were born, there we

264
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were, we were ranked by rights, and so then when we were born,

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if you're born a white person,
that ussa mean, you were more

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valiant before you were what we call
the pre existence. You're more valiant because

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you know, you get to be
not a black person in this like it.

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You know, if you're a black
person, I mean, it's like,

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wow, you probably weren't so great
in the predy. I mean,

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and then they don't talk about this
actively anymore, but it's so there.

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It's this assumption that that also aligns
with white supremacist ideals globally. Right,

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So yeah, it isn't alone.
It's not like they're saying the quiet parton

273
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out loud, but they're also not
saying it out loud, but they're saying

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it more out loud than a lot
of people are saying it out loud.

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So it's a weird yeah, yeah, oh yeah, it's it is very

276
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weird. But like here we are
in this like in a you know,

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America, still having the same conversations. So I don't I want to point

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out that Mormonism isn't unique in that
in that No, we're not like I

279
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can, I can be like,
oh jeez all I want, but I'm

280
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still living in a society that very
actively does that. It's just doing it

281
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in perhaps a more insidious way.
Perhaps. Yeah, it's different, it's

282
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it's like and then I still so
there's complexity, and I still feel a

283
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sense of loss. I still grieve
for all the beauty and the joy and

284
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the love. Yeah right that we
were just talking about this pre pre you

285
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know podcast, You and I just
how like religions start. We it really

286
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does feel that part of us that
needs belonging, that needs community, that

287
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needs love, that needs to believe
in something greater than ourselves, and that's

288
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fantastic. And I do think Mormonism
still still tries to do that, right,

289
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And it's the faith part. Yeah, well, it goes back to

290
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the whole Jesus was a hippie,
like he was a dude to war robes,

291
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and had long hair and where sandals
and was like love everybody and then

292
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look and then it became the Crusades. You know, it's like a lot

293
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of these things start. I know
that's simplistic, but do you get what

294
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I'm saying? Oh totally. Yeah. Can I ask in terms of in

295
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terms of your kids, because I
know they're different ages. Did all of

296
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them know how did your queerness?
How did they know about that? Or

297
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:32.440
did any of them not know about
that before the point where you separated from

298
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your husband, because when you came
out to him back in two thousand and

299
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eight, I think at least one
or two of them were too young to

300
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Did you tell all of them at
that point or at what point did they

301
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sort of get told about the situation. We lived in a family culture of

302
00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:59.200
just don't say that things don't cause
any y any conflict or tension, and

303
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I couldn't help myself. I had
to in twenty sixteen produce a film about

304
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lesbian Mormons and come out. That
was the one we talked about. Yeah,

305
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yes, I'm fascinated. So at
that point, at that point they

306
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I didn't talk to my and I
don't think I did this the best way

307
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not at all, not even close. But I just kind of they just

308
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:30.839
found out from by way of my
creative work, right, And then the

309
00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:38.079
first short story I republished was about
you know, queer about queerness, and

310
00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:45.799
so they know me by my work
that I'm very engaged in figuring out these

311
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questions and these intersections of faith and
conservative family and queerness. So I think

312
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they knew as early as I mean, if they as twenty sixteen, I

313
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didn't really talk to them, talk
to them about it until maybe be twenty

314
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eighteen, twenty twenty. I don't
know. It just kind of came out

315
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:10.279
in pieces, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, no, that I feel

316
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like that is coming out in pieces
in terms of children, I feel like

317
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something I have heard before from from
folks on this podcast. But so they

318
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what I guess I was getting at
is this separation was not in any way

319
00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.920
coming out of nowhere to your kids, Like, this was something that they

320
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:37.079
knew, and they knew what the
kind of arrangement was between you and your

321
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:41.119
husband. So yeah, so this
was not like out of the blue for

322
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any of them at the point that. Yeah, to our credit, we

323
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were very very careful about when we
told our children. Yeah, so when

324
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we made that decision, we took
about a month and a half to really

325
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lean into what was happening in all
different status, in all different layers of

326
00:27:03.799 --> 00:27:07.359
our lives. You know, do
we wait until school starts? And at

327
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what point and at which child do
we start with? And I think my

328
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:18.880
ex is very he's a very empathic
I would say, well to an extent,

329
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:23.440
right, So he's very he's very
He's very sensitive to people and their

330
00:27:23.519 --> 00:27:32.160
needs, which makes him he's he's
wonderful that way. And he he he's

331
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:37.680
been such an incredible parent to our
kids. As I've been grappling with my

332
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:42.240
own issues and of trauma, of
my own childhood traumas and and things like

333
00:27:42.279 --> 00:27:48.079
that, I think he has shown
up a lot more than I have for

334
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:52.200
my kids. You showed up for
as well as I could. I feel

335
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:57.519
like three kids like they're yeah,
yeah, yeah, I'm sorry. I'm

336
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:00.240
not meaning to invalidate your feeling.
I'm just like, oh no, I

337
00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:06.039
hate hearing you say, yeah,
I appreciate yourself, but but you have

338
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:11.039
a therapist. You get all that. I have a lot of work to

339
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.279
do. I need a daily therapist
is what I need. I need reminders

340
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:18.759
like that because I don't know what
you know a lot of times, I'll

341
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:21.599
keep doing it. Yeah, I
appreciate it. Thank you. This is

342
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:25.400
like therapy right now, I'll take
it. I'll kill you after all,

343
00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:32.640
Right, sounds good. I'll support
you on Patreon. Everyone for support this

344
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:40.039
podcast anyway. Okay, but yeah, I think I mean you said that

345
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.079
your daughter, your daughter's almost eighteen, you're older. She's eighteen, she

346
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.680
just turned eighteen. She I'm a
daughter of my daughter's eighteen. I'm a

347
00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:51.720
mother of an eighteen year old.
Wow, right, Like I just took

348
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:56.039
her to the bank and we just
started to Yeah, it was crazy,

349
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:00.400
crazy, really intense. But this
is happening in real time that you know,

350
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.720
I am. They're all at the
age though, where they could understand,

351
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:11.680
like even back in twenty twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen, like there there

352
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:18.200
was you could have like conversations with
them about what like, hey, our

353
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:23.759
family might look different from other families
because this is how it works between me

354
00:29:23.799 --> 00:29:29.559
and your dad and that's sort of
maybe not that direct, but like it

355
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.359
was, it was they were at
an age where they could understand the information

356
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:37.279
that was sort of being ruled out
correct. Yes, And I was kind

357
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:44.519
of leading that that part of he
would he leads the more kind of I

358
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.519
would say, traditional strain things,
and I lead the kind of more let's

359
00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:53.960
get curious about what's possible. Oh
I love that ch Yeah, And I

360
00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.480
think that was so between him and
I we I think that was the joy

361
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:06.079
a very joyous part of our of
our of our relationship is that we could

362
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:11.640
create that dynamic for Okay, so
they have they can hold space for multitudes,

363
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:19.359
I think just because of the nature
of their parents. So I think

364
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:23.680
they were able to adjust to that
news. When we finally gave it to

365
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.359
them a month and a half later, the oldest was like, yeah,

366
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:33.680
kind of just kind of like yeah, I mean, I that doesn't surprise

367
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.000
me at all. And then I
think it was the youngest and he was

368
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:47.599
ten or eleven at the top eleven
yeah at the time, and was he

369
00:30:47.720 --> 00:30:52.480
was most thrown, which makes sense
for so many reasons. My second daughter

370
00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:59.799
also felt like this was right.
She's she is very very in tune with

371
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:04.400
her with people's feelings as well,
and so so yeah, I think they

372
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:10.839
they just knew, the daughters,
you know, being older also, and

373
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.599
my son and I have a different
relationship, like he and I really get

374
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:21.759
each other. You know, we're
personality and are just our natural curiosity for

375
00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:26.400
things and our need for expansion.
We're very similar in that way. And

376
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.200
then yeah, and then the need
for order, Like I see this is

377
00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.759
not as a fault at all of
my ex husband, but you know,

378
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:41.319
that need for order shows up in
my second daughter. But she also has

379
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:47.519
that kind of that love of people, that's that's innate in her. So

380
00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:49.559
it's beautiful. I just I love
my kids. They're so amazing. They're

381
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:56.759
so kind, they're compassionate, they're
generous, they're very good humans. And

382
00:31:57.000 --> 00:32:05.000
I have found that I was unable
to really show up for them because of

383
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:09.119
not being able to show up for
me. It's this kind of it's this

384
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:15.079
backwards thinking that we have. I
think in this particular religion, you know,

385
00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.720
when we take Christ, when he
says, you know, the first

386
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.240
and greatest commandment is to love God
and to love neighbors as you love yourself,

387
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.240
I think we forget the part of
loving ourself, you know, because

388
00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:29.519
if you look at this, he's
like, you gotta love yourself first,

389
00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:31.480
you know, hippie Jesus right,
like, gotta love yourself first, or

390
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.599
it's gonna be really hard for you
to love other people. It's like right

391
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:37.720
there in the text and verse,
whatever reason I was, we were never

392
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:42.599
taught this. I still say this
and Mormons are going yeah, but they

393
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:45.039
still go yeah, yeah, wait
what you know, why why don't we

394
00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:49.799
talk about this more? I know
you can't love your kids until you love

395
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.960
yourselves, you know. And it's
not they keep they tell you mothers,

396
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:57.920
you're the nurtures and you're you belong
at home, You're naturally nurturing, which

397
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:00.920
is I don't know who that serves? Oh is it men? Okay,

398
00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:05.319
maybe it does. So the men
are like, yeah, you belong not

399
00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:08.000
in public, you belong in the
private spaces because you're so good at nurturing

400
00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:13.200
children. And so if you're not
like that kind of person like me,

401
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.240
I'm not like natural, I don't. So I had a lot of shame

402
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:21.359
that I'm still working through, which
is as a human, make that gender,

403
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.119
no one would ever call me nurturing. And I think I'm like a

404
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:29.519
good person, you're great human,
but I'm not. I'm not motherly,

405
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:34.319
you know what I mean? Say
that women are automatically endowed with that is

406
00:33:34.519 --> 00:33:43.039
so wildly and a personality yes,
exactly. So many men who are the

407
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.920
yes to embrace curturing. Oh my
god, yes, yeah. And I

408
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:52.680
have friends who are way more matronly
than I am, like male friends,

409
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.640
just my nature of their personality,
and it's so stupid. Yeah, we

410
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:00.160
turn that into a gendered thing.
And the other like what you're saying about

411
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:05.839
being able to love your kids like
so much more expensively. Now. That

412
00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:09.039
is if you are locking not you, the proverbial you, If you are

413
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:14.840
locking up a huge part of yourself
and keeping it behind a dam so that

414
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:19.400
it doesn't like overflow everything, i
e. If you're repressing your sexuality,

415
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.960
your gender, whatever you're repressing,
you are not able to show up fully

416
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:27.719
for anyone in your life. You're
not you're able to show up to the

417
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.679
amount that is not behind the damn
that you're afraid is going to break.

418
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:36.280
And that is not even that's just
a factual statement. If you've locked away,

419
00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:38.800
you know, thirty percent of yourself, then you can only show up

420
00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:43.360
seventy percent. It's not possible to
show up one hundred percent if you're locking

421
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.519
away a percentage of yourself. And
people think that they're like, oh,

422
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:49.599
but I can do and it's like, no, you can't. That's math,

423
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:53.880
Like I'm sorry, like you can't. So I just think no one

424
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:59.840
has ever everyone is like stay together
for or I think people are saying this

425
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:01.679
us, but the idea of staying
together for the kids, and that's in

426
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:05.760
any marriage, not even having to
do a sexuality, but just any Like

427
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.920
I have never in my entire life
heard a grown child be like, I'm

428
00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:13.639
so glad my parents stayed together for
me. That was the right call and

429
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.360
it really worked out and I'm well
adjusted. Like no, like it never

430
00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:22.239
works. It, No, it
never works. So I just we gotta

431
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:28.800
get that out of our lexicon,
that phrasing of staying together for the kids.

432
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.159
No, because ince instead we get
to model what it looks like for

433
00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:37.880
each of us to lean into are
the sect the soft animal of our body?

434
00:35:37.960 --> 00:35:40.719
What is it? Mary Oliver's poem? Right, well, I thought

435
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:43.639
you were making that up. I
was like, oh, I wish I

436
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:45.400
did. No, this is like, no, I don't think. I

437
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:49.280
think I read a lot. So
I think a lot of my ideas come

438
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.960
from just a hodgepotch of a lot
of things. But she says, you

439
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:59.400
know you lean into like uh,
letting your body the soft animal of your

440
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:01.320
body, love what it loves,
and we get to model that for our

441
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:06.360
kids. Yes, because they see
that. I mean, there's no possible

442
00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:12.360
way they can ignore the pain and
suffering. I mean, so whether what

443
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:15.760
they're learning is on them, it
does right that, Yeah, we're modeling

444
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:22.280
suffering and pain as the de facto
way to be human or are we modeling?

445
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:24.920
Yeah? They unconsciously, Yeah,
they're going to seek that out in

446
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:30.800
their relationships somehow, right, unconsciously
because it's like, this is how you

447
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.920
have a marriage. You repress everything
and you're unhappy. I must find this.

448
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:37.320
But like, yeah, your kids, whether it's now or years from

449
00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.719
now, they are going to look
at you as a figure of like such

450
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:47.039
strength and courage and like that's going
to be so inspiring for them when they

451
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:53.800
inevitably hit some point in their life
where they have to make a similarsh decision

452
00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:59.920
like and just having you as that
model is going to be so valuable for

453
00:37:00.199 --> 00:37:06.920
them. Yeah, that's the hope, right, And I think continuing to

454
00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:12.760
work with myself yeah, and I
fully do. Yeah, that they know

455
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:17.800
that it's not and not everything's gonna
always work out exactly the way we can

456
00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:22.719
it. Then that's life and reality, and that's okay. I know they

457
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:25.079
work on binaries their baby brains right
now. We aren't going to be fully

458
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:29.000
developed until what is it, twenty
six, twenty seven? Right now,

459
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:30.639
all they can do is work in
binaries, which is fine. And if

460
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:35.239
they feel safer in church with their
father, which they all three of them

461
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:39.239
are, that's fine. I feel
that they want to have a foundation that's

462
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:47.280
stable and safe and predictable, and
that's that's beautiful, right And whenever they're

463
00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:52.000
ready, they'll remember right that it's
possible to hold space for all of it,

464
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:57.039
to hold space for the pain,
and to not fear it. Don't

465
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.920
fear it'll it may not be all
right, and that's okay, right,

466
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:06.159
And it's okay to feel fear.
That's fine too. Feel it's fine for

467
00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:10.039
them to feel disrupted right now in
this period of transition. I feel disrupted.

468
00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:15.320
I'm leading into that and I'll express
it, but I also express like

469
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:21.159
deep, you know, sense of
solidity and groundedness, because that is what

470
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.679
I feel like. I get to
be in one body right now, living

471
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:30.119
one life that I'm not splitting the
water. I get to be the water,

472
00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:34.159
get to be the water and the
water is safe and it's stable too,

473
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:36.639
it can be you know. I
think the fear is anarchy. The

474
00:38:36.679 --> 00:38:38.280
fear is like, oh great,
mom's gonna go, and you know,

475
00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:43.000
just be wild now. And I
think some people do when they leave Mormonism.

476
00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:45.840
My cousins when they left, you
know, they did all sorts of

477
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:50.719
crazy things and then eventually they found
their own happy medium, right, their

478
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:54.159
own groundedness. And when you've been
locked up in a cage, you just

479
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:57.840
want to be like, Okay,
where are all the corners of the world

480
00:38:57.840 --> 00:39:02.280
that can go And and I think
we're taught to fear that. We're taught

481
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:05.400
to be like, oh yeah,
you're not now going to go and do

482
00:39:05.519 --> 00:39:09.000
fentanyl and like kill yourself and be
homeless, you know, because that's that's

483
00:39:09.000 --> 00:39:12.800
the extreme. That's what we're like. You know, you either do this,

484
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.039
which is extreme, or you do
something else that's extreme. I do

485
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.880
see that the linary too, yeah, right, we tell ourselves that yeah,

486
00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:22.559
yeah, yeah, yeah. I
mean that is religion also, right,

487
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:25.360
right, And that's kind of the
trope of X. Like you know

488
00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:30.519
a lot of Mormons who are just
like want to you know, keep their

489
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.639
kids safe right from that world because
they see that radical swing for a lot

490
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:40.199
of x Mormons. Yeah, and
also they blame that on quote unquote the

491
00:39:40.239 --> 00:39:44.719
world and not in fact, and
maybe that's an expression of all the trauma

492
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:52.360
caused by their religion. It's like
there's a lot of selective thinking in terms

493
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:57.719
of some of the reactionary things that
might happen when people leave religion. Like

494
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.280
I wonder if that had to do
at all what the relife as opposed to

495
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:05.679
just the fact that they left it. But that's a whole exactly, that's

496
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:07.719
a whole nother thing. That's a
lot other thing. It's it's like,

497
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:13.280
what do we need? Fundamentally?
I really enjoy leaving the religion and being

498
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.960
like, okay, what what is
that the root of all this? It's

499
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:19.920
it is safety. We all want
safety, we all want belonging. And

500
00:40:20.039 --> 00:40:22.199
now it's creating a new template.
And I've been very open with my eighteen

501
00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:25.159
year old daughter about this, like, look, I'm I'm still trying to

502
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:30.079
figure it out. I don't have
a template anymore. So what where is

503
00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:34.280
my community? Where where is my
safety? Where's my stability? And then

504
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:37.760
you know, where's the chosen family? Which I you know, I'm loving

505
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:42.960
that this concept exists of the chosen
family, and I think we've done it

506
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:47.039
as humans throughout time. Is you
know, like who I choose you,

507
00:40:46.880 --> 00:40:52.119
you choose me? This is beautiful, this is we're interdependent, as therapy

508
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:55.679
would say, we're not codependent,
oh, which I think that a lot

509
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:00.719
of us in religions are codependent.
We're dependent. Yeah, I like interdependent,

510
00:41:01.119 --> 00:41:05.880
Yeah, because we get to be
individuated. We get to be our

511
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:10.480
own persons and then with each other, right, So yeah, I get

512
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:15.360
to find out who I am as
me and love that perversion of myself.

513
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:19.119
And then I get to be in
a family with someone else who's also doing

514
00:41:19.159 --> 00:41:24.159
the work finding that with people who
are who are with left high demand religions

515
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:29.880
in different pockets and spheres, and
that feels really good. And most,

516
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:34.920
but most of my time right now
is spent kind of repairing this this relationship

517
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:38.320
with my children. That's where I'm
at mostly, and then doing some producing

518
00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:45.480
of films that are no longer about
religion and queerdness in God and goodness interesting

519
00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:50.880
And is that like a direct result
of do you feel like now that you

520
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:52.440
can live the way you want to
live? You're like, I don't not

521
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:57.719
every movie I do has to be
about, like I can express this in

522
00:41:57.719 --> 00:42:00.679
my real life, So now my
movies can be about I don't know,

523
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:07.039
race cars or whatever you're doing exactly. I don't know. It's about basketball.

524
00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:10.559
Yeah, Oh my god, I'm
close. Were really close. I

525
00:42:10.599 --> 00:42:15.519
was in the ballpark. No,
we're premiering in may actually, Sinco de

526
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:20.800
Mayo over premiering a film called Home
Court in Little Tokyo in Los Angeles.

527
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:25.440
Yeah, and it's a documentary about
yeah, the daughter of Cambodian refugees.

528
00:42:25.559 --> 00:42:30.599
Oh my gosh, this is your
first non queer, non religious movie.

529
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:36.519
It's quite possible. Yes, yes, wow that I'm producing. Yes,

530
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:47.079
that's amazing. This is a big
question that I have wanted to ask you.

531
00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:52.679
Uh. And it goes back to
the movie that you produced about the

532
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:59.920
two lesbian Mormons who slept in separate
bedrooms. So the kind of like reveal

533
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:06.039
in the middle of the short film
is that these women do not have a

534
00:43:06.400 --> 00:43:08.719
physically and not that's not true.
They kiss their affectionate, they do not

535
00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:14.199
have a sexual relationship, or that's
what we're led to believe by the fact

536
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:16.239
that we see them say goodny to
each other, kiss each other on the

537
00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:22.519
cheek and then go to separate bedrooms. And we talked about kind of the

538
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:30.239
blowback sort of from that of people
people's different feelings on that. And as

539
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:37.760
somebody who facilitates, I have talked
about facilitating a coming out workshop and just

540
00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.880
my regular group at the center that
I facilitate, there are a number of

541
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:49.480
women in situations like yours was where
they have realized that they're queer. They

542
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.360
are choosing to not act on that
because they are in a marriage, often

543
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:59.400
with kids, but sometimes even though
there aren't kids, they're still choosing to

544
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:05.000
be in the marriage. And that
was at the time that I met you,

545
00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:10.840
what you were choosing to do.
And I my feeling has been and

546
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:15.880
Nicole and I both sort of expressed
this feeling in that episode has been like

547
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:22.519
I don't know other people's lives and
it is not my place to be.

548
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:29.280
Like you're gonna be miserable if you
continue to do that, and you shouldn't

549
00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:31.280
do that, and if you've realized
this thing about yourself, like you owe

550
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:36.119
it to yourself to get out of
the marriage and live your life, and

551
00:44:36.519 --> 00:44:42.440
all of these things that you now
have done since the last time that we

552
00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:46.360
spoke, and I guess my big
question is like, am I wrong?

553
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:52.119
Like where is the line between those
of us who are on the other side

554
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.559
of coming out thinking we potentially should
say that, but at the same time

555
00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.800
being like, I don't know,
there's a marriage and there's kids involved,

556
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:02.960
Like should I let them come to
it in their own time? Should I

557
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:07.039
try to push it a little?
Like I have always aired on the side

558
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:12.559
of not pushing it, because my
feeling is if they are going to come

559
00:45:12.639 --> 00:45:14.960
to it, which a lot of
people do and which you did, they

560
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:16.519
will come to it in their time
and on their own, and then you

561
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:21.400
just be there to support them,
but don't try to crowbar it. But

562
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:25.079
I don't know, is that wrong? Do you wish that somebody had crowbarred

563
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:29.000
it a little so it could have
happened sooner? Or like? This is

564
00:45:29.000 --> 00:45:32.800
obviously just a personal You can't answer
for everybody and it's individual to the individual.

565
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:38.519
But I struggle with that as someone
who facilitates women in these positions.

566
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:44.239
So I was wondering what you're fighting
was, Yeah, it's contextualized by what

567
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:50.880
your relationship was, Like the space
in which you're having these conversations matters a

568
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:54.519
lot. Who are you in relation
to them in that moment, in that

569
00:45:54.679 --> 00:45:58.760
space, and then in that time, I think matters a lot. As

570
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:06.000
as a film maker with participants,
with people we care about deeply, we

571
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:13.800
were upfront about who we are.
I am as someone who's struggling myself with

572
00:46:14.199 --> 00:46:19.800
understanding the different pieces of me and
how they show up in this world and

573
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:23.840
we And I am interested in your
story because it might be something that I

574
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:32.519
that resonates with me right now,
because I want to stay faithful as Yeah,

575
00:46:34.360 --> 00:46:37.920
I want to stay faithful to this
religion that I was raised in that

576
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:45.320
I believe in. And your story, you know, is important I think

577
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:50.400
to share because you're not alone.
I think we always need to show up

578
00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:54.719
right in our as our most authentic
selves in any room. So you showing

579
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.519
up as the version of you that's
listening and going. I have had so

580
00:46:59.639 --> 00:47:02.239
much experienced. Look, I have
this podcast where I've interviewed like hundreds of

581
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:08.599
people at this point, and I've
done reado's and followed up and I'm showing

582
00:47:09.159 --> 00:47:13.239
here's the math, right, here's
the people that I talked to three years

583
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.360
ago, and then where are they
today. I think you could do that

584
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:22.400
sort of you could approach it that
way. Let's say as a social scientist

585
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:24.320
and say, look, I'm going
to collect all the day. This is

586
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:29.639
something I hope someone's doing right now. All the all the Mormons who are

587
00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:32.840
in mixed orientations were interviewed. I
mean there was very clear. It was

588
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:37.360
on a website. There was all
these videos. Look, I am gay,

589
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:45.119
but I'm also choosing to do the
Mormon way. And a word on

590
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:51.079
the street is like none of them
are married anymore? Yeah, right,

591
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:53.559
And word on the street is like, I'm close to one hundred percent of

592
00:47:53.639 --> 00:48:00.039
these people and there might be thirty
forty fifty of them are now you know,

593
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:08.880
are now no longer doing what they
were espousing to do and hoping that

594
00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:19.239
they could continue to do. And
that's math. So so it depends,

595
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:21.960
right, if you know, you
have a dear friend and you're like,

596
00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:25.440
hey, this is I understand that
this is where you are right now.

597
00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.599
What is your greatest fear? And
if they're and you're like, you don't

598
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:36.360
have to answer that, we don't
have to answer anything. First of all,

599
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:43.280
right, that our friends ask us. I have friends who I have

600
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.119
asked these questions of and they're not
ready, and that's okay, right,

601
00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:52.079
And then those friendships tend to fall
away. I have learned over time because

602
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.599
I'm someone who welcomes the hardest questions. Ask me the hardest question you have

603
00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:01.159
ask you know, I welcome it, right and I I welcomed it when

604
00:49:01.159 --> 00:49:05.119
I was in grad school when someone's
like, are you even Asian? Are

605
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:07.960
even? Like? What you just
said was so racist? And I was

606
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.679
like, oh damn, Like I
feel a lot of shame and embarrassment,

607
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:15.000
but I was like, God,
thank you, thank you for asking that

608
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:16.480
question. Who am I as an
Asian? Just recently, there was a

609
00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:20.239
movie called joy Ride and they were
like it was like, but you know,

610
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:22.519
have you seen it? It's like, uh, I needed to be

611
00:49:22.960 --> 00:49:27.760
road Trip. We'll talk about it. Yeah, crass road trip movie about

612
00:49:27.800 --> 00:49:31.119
four Asian Asian American women, like
different types of Asian America, Like this

613
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:35.519
is the first of it's kind.
And then I finally can be the child

614
00:49:35.599 --> 00:49:38.519
that goes, oh, I'm most
like this person. I am most I

615
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:43.280
am most like the whitewashed Asian that's
me. And I'd be like, oh,

616
00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:49.119
yay, you know there is no
stereotypical Asian like I get to see

617
00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.760
my more and more right in the
last like five years. I think all

618
00:49:51.800 --> 00:49:54.280
of a sudden, there's a lot
of these representations. So I am a

619
00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:58.440
whitewashed Asian. I get to be
like, that's who I am because someone

620
00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:04.840
asked me the hard question once,
right, and that's great. Like do

621
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.800
I get to stay want? Not
necessarily, but I really want people to

622
00:50:07.880 --> 00:50:10.400
come up to me and be like, I want them to be real with

623
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:14.760
me. I do. I welcome
it, but not everyone. Not everyone

624
00:50:14.840 --> 00:50:17.000
wants that, So it just depends, right, So if you get to

625
00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:22.360
feel it out for yourself when you're
in the company of someone you think could

626
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:25.039
be happier, and we want that
for each other. We want to connect

627
00:50:25.079 --> 00:50:30.280
better, right, because I mean
we're built to connect and for them to

628
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:36.760
like not want you know, you
see them disconnecting from themselves, from their

629
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:40.679
partners, from their children, from
their world, from you, and it's

630
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:45.920
painful. It's painful to watch.
I know, I know because part of

631
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:51.719
me does wonder if like, back
when I met you in Freakin twenty fifteen

632
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:54.360
or whatever, and then we were
like at the Denver Film Festival. Then

633
00:50:54.400 --> 00:50:58.280
we were like having drinks that little
after party with everybody, and you were

634
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:00.480
like, oh, here's my situation. And part of me is like,

635
00:51:00.519 --> 00:51:06.360
should I just have said, uh, you're gone only of your os,

636
00:51:06.440 --> 00:51:09.840
but like I just met you,
so like I couldn't. Should I have

637
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:15.880
taken back my drink and been like, if you realize that you only like

638
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:21.639
women, let me save you nine
years? Like ye, Like should I

639
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:25.400
have like done that? I don't
know, Like would that have been helpful?

640
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:31.000
Like absolutely, yes, so I
should have. So that's a lesson

641
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:37.800
for me then, is like I
do think because you know, because we

642
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:43.239
get to be so honest, but
yeah, I am so kind of conflict

643
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:47.639
averse and like like let tend to
want to default of people finding things in

644
00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:51.400
their own time and like a gentle
approach and stuff. I think that I

645
00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:57.519
do maybe air too much on the
side of like I support whatever you do,

646
00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:00.519
even if in my mind I'm like
I don't know about it. It's

647
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:04.760
like, yeah, I should maybe
trust people's own strength more and like be

648
00:52:04.960 --> 00:52:07.800
more upfront. I will say,
at the time, I didn't have this

649
00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:14.239
podcast, so I didn't have the
data to backup my feeling true, right,

650
00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:20.039
this is not You're a different person
now, you have different information.

651
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:22.639
You have talked to so many people, and I definitely want to next time

652
00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:27.400
I'm in LA, I definitely want
to definitely want to pick your brain on

653
00:52:27.480 --> 00:52:31.360
what you've learned, you know,
many hundred interviews that you've done. Yeah,

654
00:52:32.280 --> 00:52:36.159
you know, because I think that
that to me is very That's just

655
00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:39.639
that feels my kind of social scientist
need to know, you know. And

656
00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:43.960
part of the creation of that book
was for my need to know, and

657
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:45.960
and I need to know stems from
my need to not feel so alone.

658
00:52:46.519 --> 00:52:51.400
So it comes down to that too. And I want to know myself.

659
00:52:51.480 --> 00:52:52.760
But you didn't know that about me. You didn't know I was someone that

660
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:59.559
welcomes. Look you're not. You're
not the only in that situation I would

661
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.360
have been versus As a facilitator,
though, that is something that I should

662
00:53:02.360 --> 00:53:07.239
think about, you know, like
just maybe maybe asking more questions, like

663
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.320
me, have you thought of things
this way? Have you thought of that?

664
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:13.840
And I think I do it more
as of now now we're talking about

665
00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:15.320
me and my favorite topic. But
yeah, I think I do do it

666
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:20.280
more as a facilitator when I have
that capacity and I know someone better and

667
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:22.639
we have the space and they're in
a space specifically to sort of receipt,

668
00:53:22.760 --> 00:53:27.719
right, But yeah, it just
interesting. I think it's okay if you're

669
00:53:27.719 --> 00:53:30.079
coming from a place of like,
oh my god, I think you're so

670
00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:32.840
dumb that no one's going to be
receptive. And I've had people when I

671
00:53:32.920 --> 00:53:36.559
share my story go like, oh
my gosh, you're so dumb, like

672
00:53:36.679 --> 00:53:39.360
you should be like you know,
you're going to leave yourself eventually. Yeah.

673
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:43.039
So I've met those types and I'm
not going to be receptive to that.

674
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:46.039
I've met people who are genuinely like, oh my gosh, I'm crying

675
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:49.920
for you right now in your situation, and I just want you to know

676
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:54.079
that this is your journey. Also, my experience is that it's this is

677
00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:57.760
not going to work long term.
And I go, thank you very much,

678
00:53:57.880 --> 00:54:00.519
thank you for your feedback. You
know, I'm listening to you,

679
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:04.920
and I am not ready to do
anything about what you just said. And

680
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:07.960
that's okay, and we just wish
each other the best in part ways.

681
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:13.159
Right. So, I was I
was given an opportunity actually to leave earlier,

682
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:19.159
and I said no to that.
I said no to that and to

683
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:22.760
someone I loved a lot, and
I just told her I am not ready.

684
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:27.199
I'm not ready. I knew in
my body I wasn't ready. There

685
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:30.760
was, there's certain things. There's
a lot of complexity and processes you know,

686
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:36.880
that come front that lead to this
decision. And so for people,

687
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:38.559
you know, I love it when
people are like, oh yeah, you're

688
00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:44.840
just another one of those post Mormons, you know, like who are thoughtless

689
00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:49.960
and decide to do what's easy.
Yeah, Like I'm taking the easy path

690
00:54:50.079 --> 00:54:55.079
to leave Mormonism because they're the martyrs, because martyrdom is beautiful and ideal.

691
00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:01.000
The self videlation, you know,
in like Judeo Christianity is is like so

692
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:07.159
revered and honored that the doing that, the that the leaving is somehow making

693
00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:13.000
me less worthy, right of,
like I don't respect or something. I

694
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:17.519
mean, you just laugh at that, because I personally know how freaking difficult

695
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.519
this is. But I've been that
person. I've been on that person on

696
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:23.880
the other side, the Mormon that's
like, oh yeah, the people who

697
00:55:23.960 --> 00:55:30.400
leave there taking the easy route,
sure that they're lazier. Somehow I have

698
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:34.880
I'm trying to give myself kindness and
grace, like for my past self who

699
00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:39.239
used to judge, who used to
judge? Right, the women who left

700
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:44.440
their marriages. Because when the making
of that movie, I was still in

701
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:51.199
that space of like, oh,
the more the more respectful thing to do

702
00:55:51.440 --> 00:55:54.760
is to stick it out with your
husband. And I was that, and

703
00:55:54.880 --> 00:56:00.800
I was judgmental. I was judgmental
of women who though, because if you

704
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:06.760
feel like you can't get out of
a situation, you have to tell yourself

705
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:08.840
and make yourself believe that that is
the noble and best thing to do,

706
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:14.639
because it's like that's what you're locked
in too. So I just think that

707
00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:19.800
makes sense. Yes, it is
safety right we have, but there's that

708
00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:22.880
deep, deep part of our magdalah
and brain stunt that says you need to

709
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:30.079
survive at all costs and that that's
how we've evolved as humans. Is what's

710
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:35.039
the safest situation? Do I stay
with the pack or is the pack I'm

711
00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:37.719
safe now and I have to leave
the pack and go find a different pack.

712
00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:44.880
You know, that's very mammalian.
I'm just I mean, I don't

713
00:56:44.920 --> 00:56:50.400
know. I'm just I am glad
that you, in your own time,

714
00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:55.519
And it sounds like at the right
time, found your way out of it.

715
00:56:55.679 --> 00:56:59.079
But not even just I don't want
to prioritize out of it. It's

716
00:56:59.119 --> 00:57:02.719
more that you found your way to
you like you're saying and I think that

717
00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:09.519
like everything you did, like was
helping you to do, like editing,

718
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:14.199
putting this book out into the world
was a choice. It's not like that

719
00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:19.840
happened to you, like you were
actively and that was a step that led

720
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:22.880
to another step that So it's not
like you're passive, and like you were

721
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:27.639
taking the steps that you needed to
take in the time that you needed to

722
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:30.360
take them the way you needed to
take them to get to this point.

723
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:37.000
And everyone, yes, journey with
that looks different now. I just in

724
00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:40.239
this moment, realized that that was
an act of love for myself. Yes,

725
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:45.679
even electing, even before that,
electing to go on a one person

726
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:49.800
immersive show that you know is a
simulated date with a woman is a choice

727
00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:54.719
and takes courage. But seriously,
like someone at a different point in their

728
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.559
life would not have had the courage
to do that. That would have been

729
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:02.840
like too scary and too real and
too like what if I like this and

730
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:07.280
it makes me regret like not being
able to do this for real, Like

731
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:10.480
I feel like all of the things
that you were doing were like little choices

732
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:15.360
getting you to the big choice.
But you can't just jump to the big

733
00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:20.079
choice like a lot of people might
want you to or like the people who

734
00:58:20.119 --> 00:58:22.519
are going like, oh, you're
so dumb, like they're not seeing all

735
00:58:22.599 --> 00:58:28.039
the little steps that need to happen
to get there. Right, we don't

736
00:58:28.119 --> 00:58:34.559
see the little other things, right
if for someone we don't we don't see

737
00:58:34.599 --> 00:58:38.400
all the complexities that someone has to
grapple with outside of orientation. Like I

738
00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:44.760
think this be proud and be queer. I love that we celebrate in June,

739
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:46.000
but I've always had a hard time
with it because it's like, well,

740
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:50.719
there's more to me than my orientation, Yes, a lot more,

741
00:58:51.960 --> 00:58:54.960
And I love that that's similarly,
yeah, a piece of me. Cool,

742
00:58:55.159 --> 00:58:58.159
this is this is a piece of
me. That's a big piece of

743
00:58:58.239 --> 00:59:00.719
me. And I'm so glad I
get to be that. And I'm so

744
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:06.480
glad I can be so out and
proud and and join my other you know,

745
00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:08.880
because you know, it is it
is a struggle. It is a

746
00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:15.199
real and like and and and it
was a real deprivation and it still continues

747
00:59:15.239 --> 00:59:19.719
to be a deprivation that you know, heteronormative society places on us. And

748
00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:30.119
it's something worth celebrating and and and
right, like our humans are complex and

749
00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:32.760
there's so much that I want to
celebrate. I want to sell celebrate may

750
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:39.440
Api Heritage month. Yeah American,
right, I got may I got you,

751
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.039
you know, Yeah, I want
to I want to celebrate the right

752
00:59:44.119 --> 00:59:46.599
true you know religion. And I'm
glad, you know, because at one

753
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:51.880
point I was religious. And I
mean we get to celebrate at all all

754
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:55.599
those all those aspects of ourselves,
and we get to celebrate my you know,

755
00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:59.920
our our our black friends, you
know, and we get to sell

756
01:00:00.039 --> 01:00:04.320
at each other because when you know, when we do that, that's the

757
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:07.880
celebration of all of all of our
humanity, all the aspects and all the

758
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:15.840
different unique identified intersectionality. Yeah,
it's right. And I'm learning, you

759
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:17.480
know, about folks with Down syndrome
now, and I'm like, you know,

760
01:00:17.599 --> 01:00:21.159
like I never stopped. You know, this is the beauty of life

761
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.440
as we continue to learn about each
other. That's what I love about like

762
01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:29.079
these collections and I you know,
I love to do these collaborations, you

763
01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:31.320
know, in films because I get
to like meet more people who are different

764
01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:36.159
and who are who have different struggles
that I want to hear about. I

765
01:00:36.280 --> 01:00:39.400
want it, like I want to
learn about it because because that just in

766
01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:42.880
the in the sharing of it.
I think we get to love each other

767
01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:45.679
more. You know, share more
of you means I get to love more

768
01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:49.000
of you. I agree. I
mean that's why I have a podcast,

769
01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:52.119
Like I just like I love hearing
people stories. I love telling stories,

770
01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:54.599
and I love hearing people stories like
that's and that's such an old school like

771
01:00:54.719 --> 01:01:00.079
gathered around the fire, pre technology, Like that's just like human instinct that

772
01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:04.800
some of us have really strongly.
I think. I think that's so true,

773
01:01:04.880 --> 01:01:08.039
and it's hard for me to realize
that not everyone loves that. Not

774
01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:13.280
everyone. Yeah, yeah, people
are driven by different things, and I

775
01:01:13.360 --> 01:01:15.760
think you and I are similar in
that. I do think that we especially

776
01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:20.159
have that thing where it's like we
want to hear stories and tell me more.

777
01:01:21.079 --> 01:01:24.000
Like I think you're someone who would
be like like you, you could

778
01:01:24.039 --> 01:01:30.760
hear the hard things too about yourself. I know that ye bring it on,

779
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:34.800
tell me I suck. No.
That is so that's very true,

780
01:01:34.840 --> 01:01:37.559
and like it's so funny because the
way we met that show that I was

781
01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:42.199
doing what I loved about it was
I was just collecting people's stories and hearing

782
01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:47.119
people's really like vulnerable, raw intimate
stories, and I was shocked at how

783
01:01:47.199 --> 01:01:51.599
much they were telling me, just
like a stranger. And then I was

784
01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:53.199
like, oh, that's why they're
telling it to me, because I am

785
01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:58.480
a stranger, and because they we
have this like little artifice and it feels

786
01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:01.880
safe. So like people were telling
me like really sometimes really heavy stuff and

787
01:02:02.000 --> 01:02:06.840
I was like, Wow, what
a cool my character and me I was

788
01:02:06.920 --> 01:02:12.960
like a receptacle like these like stories
and it was really cool. Wow,

789
01:02:13.960 --> 01:02:16.320
have you thought about writing a book
about it? I mean, I've thought

790
01:02:16.360 --> 01:02:20.280
about writing books about a million things. But the thing about books is you

791
01:02:20.360 --> 01:02:25.519
gotta like sit down and write them. That's hard, that's disciplined. Yeah,

792
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:30.400
but yeah, I was wondering before
we rerap up, do you want

793
01:02:30.440 --> 01:02:34.599
to speak at all to what it's
been like? You mentioned that you were

794
01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:39.519
dating women, and it sounds like
you are, you are exploring, or

795
01:02:39.559 --> 01:02:44.119
whatever word you want to use,
So like, what what has it been

796
01:02:44.280 --> 01:02:46.880
like? Because again, you were
monogamous, you and your partner, you

797
01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:52.920
and your ex in the marriage the
entire twenty plus years. Is that?

798
01:02:52.119 --> 01:02:59.199
Am I right? Yeah? Well, towards the end there was an opportunity

799
01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:07.599
for me to be in a romantic
relationship with another woman, and our husbands

800
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:09.719
were both aware that we were gonna
be in a way kind of like best

801
01:03:09.760 --> 01:03:16.199
friends in a romantic way, and
so couple as well. Yeah, yeah,

802
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:22.599
and so that was my ex like
to call it the great experiment.

803
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:27.599
And I think we learned a lot. We learned a lot about ourselves and

804
01:03:27.679 --> 01:03:30.199
about each other. I think that
was a necessary step. I think that's

805
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:34.800
a very important part of this,
this whole story, this whole arc.

806
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:39.000
It gets a little tricky because now
I'm involving like three other people. Sure,

807
01:03:42.239 --> 01:03:44.719
yeah, so now I'm involving three
other people, and this is not

808
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:52.639
necessarily my own story anymore. However, we all you know, I felt

809
01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:58.199
like we were all very responsible and
very ethical. I guess that's what they

810
01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:03.440
call it ethical non anogamy. Yeah, so were probably being helped by it

811
01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:06.800
in ways as well. It's not
just like this is all about you and

812
01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:11.360
you're involving three people. They're probably
also like, whoa, I'm involving three

813
01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:15.880
people. It's like, I assume
everyone was doing it for a reason.

814
01:04:15.639 --> 01:04:19.440
Yes, this is this is true. So that was that was a couple

815
01:04:19.519 --> 01:04:27.239
of years and then then there Yeah, so we learned a lot and everyone's

816
01:04:27.320 --> 01:04:30.920
on their own journey now all four
of us on our own kind of individual

817
01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:35.360
journey. That's a whole episode on
its own. Yeah, what was that

818
01:04:35.480 --> 01:04:42.119
the woman who you had briefly mentioned
where you had the opportunity to eventually Yeah,

819
01:04:42.199 --> 01:04:45.039
okay, but it wasn't the right
time. It wasn't the right time.

820
01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:47.599
Yeah. So here I hear you. I feel like I am the

821
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:51.480
queen of getting myself into situations where
it's like, ah, the timing sound

822
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:59.679
so yeah, yeah, so yes, so there was so just yeah,

823
01:04:59.880 --> 01:05:03.239
just you know, clarify that piece. And yo. I went on her

824
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:08.320
app for a hot minute. I
met on many, many, many dates,

825
01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:13.719
and I learned about myself and then
realized I have no time for this,

826
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:16.719
okay, like in the learning.
In the learning, I'm like,

827
01:05:16.800 --> 01:05:21.559
what do I really want right now? While I want to reimagine my my

828
01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:29.239
relationship with my children and lean into
that more. And and then, miracle

829
01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:33.719
of miracles, my dear friend from
years ago we met in a like a

830
01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:44.440
Mormon feminist retreat, came back into
my life. She was divorced and didn't

831
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:47.000
I didn't, she didn't, and
was leaning into her queerness. And so

832
01:05:47.360 --> 01:05:55.960
we've been dating this past year and
like long long distance and it's amazing.

833
01:05:56.440 --> 01:06:02.159
Yeah, like so no idea.
Yeah, well, you know, my

834
01:06:02.360 --> 01:06:10.480
god, so you have been seeing
someone for like a year ish, right,

835
01:06:10.599 --> 01:06:15.000
we've been we've been seeing each other
and like same experiences post mormon,

836
01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:21.559
right, like with kids and kids
who are older, and yeah, well

837
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:29.880
you know, different human but like
very similar backgrounds and like it's it's been

838
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:34.239
really wonderful, like like little gabies, right, little post mormon gabies,

839
01:06:34.880 --> 01:06:43.960
just kind of figuring out relationship that
is so similar to my cousin's story that

840
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:47.320
you and I talked about very first
time we ever met. Yeah, like

841
01:06:47.800 --> 01:06:51.519
that's just wild. Oh my god, I'm so happy for you. And

842
01:06:51.679 --> 01:06:57.639
so long distance, which also is
very gay. That's like a lesbian trope.

843
01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:02.480
So congratulations for hitting one of the
Yeah, the long distance queer lady

844
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:08.719
relationship is like that's very okay.
I don't know about these tropes. Yeah,

845
01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:11.320
I mean I know about the U
haul trope. I know about U

846
01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:15.000
haul, but also LDR that's a
big one. That's a big Really is

847
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:20.199
that just news that just recent?
Because your cousin and her partner met,

848
01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:24.199
they weren't long Yeah they met,
I think, yes, yes, but

849
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:28.719
no, but for and I don't
mean, it's particular to queer Mormons,

850
01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:35.079
but just queer women in general.
Long distance relationships are huge because we love

851
01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:40.159
pining and we love writing, you
know, writing long letters or in this

852
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:43.679
case, emails. But I feel
like it naturally leans insuf But so many

853
01:07:43.760 --> 01:07:50.079
queer female couples will meet online or
whatever and then have like this rich relationship

854
01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:55.800
online and then like not even meet
each other sometimes until like a year into

855
01:07:55.880 --> 01:08:00.119
the like this is just a very
common experience or meeting like a but you

856
01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:03.639
live on different sides of the world, and then you you have this song

857
01:08:03.719 --> 01:08:06.920
distance relationship for years and then somebody
like moves it, like, yeah,

858
01:08:08.000 --> 01:08:12.639
this is very this is a thing
in the in the queer female community.

859
01:08:12.760 --> 01:08:17.920
So you are in your company,
Okay, yeah, very much. That's

860
01:08:18.039 --> 01:08:21.880
so exciting. I love that.
Yeah, it's it's I you know,

861
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:26.880
it's been morally wonderful for me to
feel what it is to like fall deeply

862
01:08:26.960 --> 01:08:30.479
in love with someone who feels so
safe and who loves me for all of

863
01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:38.079
me, and who is also very
curious and expansive right and so like to

864
01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:42.479
be And this is not even outside
of orientation, like like late in life

865
01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:45.840
like relationships are so beautiful, right, like, because we know we know

866
01:08:45.960 --> 01:08:51.680
so much about ourselves, you know
that we right that there's not we know

867
01:08:53.439 --> 01:09:01.720
we know what we value and how
like how boundaries work, right, and

868
01:09:02.359 --> 01:09:05.600
there's so much ideally, yes,
so we could just lean into the joy

869
01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:09.640
more than the kind of the strug. You know a lot of that struggle

870
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:13.960
that you have earlier, older and
more tired, so you have less tolerance

871
01:09:14.000 --> 01:09:15.880
for like drama and stuff like that. So it tends to be even more

872
01:09:16.239 --> 01:09:21.520
like stable. Oh totally, yeah, yes, exactly. I know.

873
01:09:23.239 --> 01:09:26.279
I don't even want to watch it
on television anymore. It just doesn't interest

874
01:09:26.359 --> 01:09:30.399
me. I know. Yeah,
I don't have time, and neither does

875
01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:34.720
She is so so great. I
had no idea. I love that that

876
01:09:34.960 --> 01:09:40.319
is so that is so so cool. Yeah, yes, it's part.

877
01:09:40.479 --> 01:09:44.920
It's just a part of the I
think, the wonderfulness of Like I did

878
01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:46.560
not expect this at all. It
was like between kids and work. There's

879
01:09:46.680 --> 01:09:50.119
really no say it happens. Yeah, when you get off the apps and

880
01:09:50.199 --> 01:09:55.399
you're like I'm going to focus on
my Cambodian basketball movie and all of a

881
01:09:55.399 --> 01:10:00.520
sudden, this person's like hello,
right, right, right, Yeah,

882
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:05.039
that's amazing, right, Wow,
I really love that. And you got

883
01:10:05.119 --> 01:10:11.159
to have the experience of being on
the goddamn apps, which is such a

884
01:10:11.279 --> 01:10:14.960
rite of passage and like, so
you got to have that weird, weird

885
01:10:15.079 --> 01:10:18.239
experience. Yes, then yeah,
but then you met someone more organic.

886
01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:21.720
It is weird, that's the dream. It is so weird. I've never

887
01:10:23.479 --> 01:10:28.399
updated before, And yes, I
do like the her app. I mean

888
01:10:29.119 --> 01:10:32.560
I thought my friends helped me,
my queer friends help put my profile up

889
01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:35.439
and everything, so that was fun
to do together. And did you say

890
01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:39.520
it? Because I feel like people
always have this question. Did you put

891
01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:46.239
in your profile like that you had
three kids and were recently separated and mom,

892
01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:49.520
so you did the Yeah, You're
like me, I feel like we're

893
01:10:49.560 --> 01:10:53.760
it's putting it all up front.
I want you to know it. Yeah,

894
01:10:54.079 --> 01:10:57.600
right, I was a super overshare. Yeah. Absolutely. Some would

895
01:10:57.640 --> 01:11:01.319
say that's not oversharing and that's just
like necessary information if you're gonna swipe right,

896
01:11:01.439 --> 01:11:03.640
like you should know this going in. Yeah. I think I think

897
01:11:03.680 --> 01:11:08.079
it's totally a matter of comfort.
Like some people are like, I need

898
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:11.039
to wait till I'm sitting face to
face with someone to tell them X y

899
01:11:11.159 --> 01:11:14.520
Z, And some of us are
like I'm putting that in my profile,

900
01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:18.640
so you know it going in.
But yeah, it's a matter, I

901
01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:23.399
know. I just like, no
one's gonna want this, like but no

902
01:11:23.680 --> 01:11:29.079
surprising people did, people did,
people did like they did the whatever direction

903
01:11:29.199 --> 01:11:30.720
it was. Is it right?
Is it right? I think it's right.

904
01:11:30.920 --> 01:11:33.119
It's okay. Long. I don't
know, it's been it's been very

905
01:11:33.239 --> 01:11:36.720
long. I guess it's been over
a year, but a lot has happened.

906
01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:41.800
Oh my god. You know,
we live. We learn the most

907
01:11:41.840 --> 01:11:45.920
about ourselves when we're in relationship with
others, and this is the most intimate

908
01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:48.359
kind of relationship you can possibly have, as with someone who you know,

909
01:11:48.479 --> 01:11:54.000
who is like that close, who
is that like that romantic sexual, all

910
01:11:54.079 --> 01:11:58.920
of the things, and like,
oh and then we read Bell Hooks,

911
01:11:59.079 --> 01:12:01.760
like all about Love is out a
lesbian trope where we read books together about

912
01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:08.159
relationships. Oh yeah, okay,
you totally you got to read some.

913
01:12:08.399 --> 01:12:11.199
I feel like if you were reading
like Glenn and Doyle books, that would

914
01:12:11.239 --> 01:12:16.880
be like the ultimate. I think
we read that separately, many many it

915
01:12:17.000 --> 01:12:20.840
still counts. But yeah, reading
any books together is pretty lesbian. I

916
01:12:20.920 --> 01:12:28.239
feel like I loved Bill Hooks All
About Love. I read that it's not

917
01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:35.199
so I haven't read it. It
was read. I'm going to give you

918
01:12:35.520 --> 01:12:40.600
all about Love by Bell Looks because
you, yes, I am. I'm

919
01:12:40.600 --> 01:12:44.199
going to go to La very soon, so I need to read books again

920
01:12:44.439 --> 01:12:46.760
like an adult. This is an
easy one. It's not very long.

921
01:12:47.640 --> 01:12:55.399
Good because yeah, it's been a
while I cracked open a book. This

922
01:12:55.640 --> 01:13:00.000
is so. I cannot believe how
much you have packed into less than two

923
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:08.159
years since we spoke. That is
unbelievable achievements in personhood, in life and

924
01:13:08.279 --> 01:13:13.319
relationships. Just like, I'm so
impressed. I'm so I'm so happy for

925
01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:18.439
you, and I feel like you
seem happy and you identifies you and you

926
01:13:18.680 --> 01:13:26.520
and you became water. I think
that's that's my water. That was a

927
01:13:26.560 --> 01:13:30.279
good tweet. That was a good
tweet. Recap, Thank you, thank

928
01:13:30.359 --> 01:13:31.840
you. I can't wait. As
soon as we log off, I'll tweet

929
01:13:31.880 --> 01:13:39.600
it. Jed, do you want
to give like social media or anything like

930
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:45.119
that for folks to find you or
the upcoming film and just like anyway that

931
01:13:45.279 --> 01:13:49.920
folks can know what you're up to. Absolutely, I have an Instagram,

932
01:13:50.720 --> 01:13:55.199
I'm on Facebook, like women of
my generation are. You can find me

933
01:13:55.479 --> 01:14:00.520
at jen Lee Smith on Facebook,
I welcome, welcome, you know,

934
01:14:00.840 --> 01:14:05.159
connections, right, I love it. I love hearing from people. I

935
01:14:05.279 --> 01:14:11.600
love getting to know people. That's
my favorite. And on Instagram you can

936
01:14:11.680 --> 01:14:16.159
find me at Bewilder Film. That's
the like be Wilder. You know,

937
01:14:16.680 --> 01:14:20.119
you can say it both ways,
Bewilder and be Wilder. It's from Roomy's

938
01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:27.119
Sell your Cleverness by Bewilderment. That's
the name of my film production company,

939
01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:32.920
Bewildered Film. I was from m
h are well read good God. People

940
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:39.359
on Twitter all right, and I, as you know, for the last

941
01:14:39.399 --> 01:14:44.359
time for a little bit, I
am at Lauren Flanns on Twitter and Blue

942
01:14:44.439 --> 01:14:50.159
Sky I'm Lauren Underscore Flowns on Instagram. The podcast remains at coming Out Pod.

943
01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:56.680
As I mentioned, I will still
be maintaining the podcast Twitter and Instagram

944
01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:01.239
hashtag is coming Out Pod and the
last time for a while. Shout out

945
01:15:01.279 --> 01:15:05.720
to my phenomenal patrons. I am
so grateful to all of you, carmel

946
01:15:06.239 --> 01:15:13.359
Ka Simone, Cayenne, Michelle l
Adri, Tanya Pooh, Tia, Kieran

947
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:16.760
Smiley, Aaron Mitchell, Diego Hernandez
and beyond Clexa dot com. If you

948
01:15:16.920 --> 01:15:20.520
did not hear my little mini episode. One of the things I said is

949
01:15:20.600 --> 01:15:24.720
please, please, please, if
you are a patron, go ahead and

950
01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:29.720
cancel your patronage while I'm doing this
hiatus. I don't want to take your

951
01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:33.039
money while I'm not producing new episodes. That wouldn't be right. So please

952
01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:38.279
go ahead and do that. But
yeah, in the meantime, while I'm

953
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:43.319
on this hiatus, if you've never
rated the podcast five stars, now would

954
01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:45.079
be a great time to do that. And then when I returned to the

955
01:15:45.159 --> 01:15:48.399
pod, I'll be like, look
at all these new ratings and maybe even

956
01:15:48.479 --> 01:15:54.560
reviews on iTunes. Uh so yeah, But folks, like I said,

957
01:15:55.600 --> 01:15:59.600
this is not a final episode,
because the pod will be back at some

958
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:03.479
point when I have more fuel,
both emotionally and financially. But I'm so

959
01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:08.560
glad to be starting this pause on
a Reducs episode. There are one of

960
01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:11.560
my favorite things to do, and
to get to do it with you,

961
01:16:11.800 --> 01:16:16.560
Jed, is just so exciting.
You know my fascination with the Mormon religion

962
01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:19.920
based on my own personal history with
it. I'm just so happy to hear

963
01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:26.600
where your life is at and how
everything is going. And this is truly

964
01:16:27.439 --> 01:16:30.479
yeah, delightful, really and Joy, Thank you so much for having me

965
01:16:30.680 --> 01:16:34.199
back. Thank you. I have
been wanting to have you back ever since

966
01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:40.279
I sort of got a sense that
there had been a shift in things.

967
01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:43.720
I was like, oh my god, I need to help Jen back to

968
01:16:43.800 --> 01:16:45.760
talk about it. And I'm so
grateful to you for just being really open

969
01:16:45.800 --> 01:16:48.279
about all of it. I think
that's sooch Oh. I'm so happy to

970
01:16:48.600 --> 01:16:53.079
yeah, so happy, happy to
share, always to connect, and this

971
01:16:53.159 --> 01:16:57.960
has been a great therapy session for
me as well. Yeah, doctor Laurence,

972
01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:01.800
I will be requesting payment through Venmo, so keep an eye out for

973
01:17:01.840 --> 01:17:09.119
that. Thank you all so so
much for listening, and I will see

974
01:17:09.199 --> 01:17:14.279
you the next time I see you. Bye bye.