Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and
we have a great show for you this evening and we'll be talking about that
in just a second. I want to thank everyone that supports the show.
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The full shows it is so if you head over to podcast ufo dot com.
We have, by a great demand, a new merchandise store. We
just opened it up this morning. It's right there on the menu bar.
We have T shirts, pullovers, tank tops, hoodies, pillows, shower
curtains, even And this was all with a wonderful graphic that Diane Cash made
I think two or three years ago for T shirts. Actually it was she
won the first prize in the T shirt graphics contest that I did. So
it's a great graphics. It's a basically a triangle UFO and a beautiful night
sky looks almost like the Milky Way going through there, and then you see
this triangle UFO. Like I said, with a single person looking down,
I think pointing up or something like that. Wonderful graphics, So check that
out now. If you go into the show notes or under this show,
whether it's on YouTube or on my website or even in your media player,
you will see a link to where the merchandise store is. Also, there
is a code that's good for two weeks, just in time for Christmas.
I'm not going to say the code, it's too long, but the code
is included also in the show notes and in the show itself text, so
it's all right there. It's twenty percent off for two weeks, and the
prices are very reasonable. It's not like these are expensive in any type of
way. They're just regular T shirt price that you see out there. I
forgot to announce last week we had a blog called UFOs and astronauts are very
well written, very informational, and this week we have UFOs over Scotland.
So if you're new to this whole topic, there's a great amount of information
in these weekly blogs, so check that out again over at podcast ufo dot
com. And I want to thank Charles Lear for doing a great job with
those I'll repeat guests tonight. He's also a personal friend and he's going to
be joined in just one minute here Chris Lambright. Chris has worked extensively in
computer technology and Internet services and has a background and graphic arts illustrations CGI and
holds a degree in psychology from Baylor University. He's a former investigator for the
Center of UFO Studies and a contributor to the Computer UFO Network, and he's
also a licensed private investigator. He likes to investigate things, and that's what
we're going to be talking about tonight. He currently lives in Austin, Texas.
What we're going to be talking about tonight is the US Navy, it's
relation to UFOs, including the uf USS Nimitz UFO encounter, Bigelow Airspace,
in the connection between the US government and TTSA, all that good stuff.
Chris has written a paper on this and on my website you will see a
pdf. Currently there is the links in the UH in the pdf are not
active. They will be UM by actually by tomorrow, so maybe by the
time most of the people are listening to the show, those links will be
active. Because he links instead of UM doing like a summary with or footnotes.
UM A lot of things that Chris is talking about is linked live links,
so you can go right to those two reference and welcome to the show.
Chris. Always good talking to Martin. Nice to see you again.
How are you good? Good? Um? You know, I've made a
few friends along the way doing the show, and I consider you a good
one. We've gone. I can't remember the first time you were I think
there's two twelve or I had heard you on Coast to Coast. Um,
I think back in two thou twelve and I contacted you were gracious enough to
come on and when we've been basically in touch ever since. We talked on
the phone a lot and it's it's been it's been good. And we have
a mutual friend, Ray Stanford. Always interesting talking to him and the things
that he has done. We're supporting him and it's an amazing world that he's
in, isn't it. I mean, what he's uncovered in the dinosaur world
is just a I talked to him this morning and he had a close call
last week. It was almost all over. He told me about a car
accident. Somebody who ran a stop sign, took the front end of his
car off with his wife and it and pushed him up against a tree.
It was close. He's okay. So I was like, both of them,
Yeah, well that's good. Wow they got a new here then,
so yeah, a new car out of it. So Chris, for the
person I kind of just gave your background. But for the person that's this
first time hearing you can you give them, you know, kind of a
nutshell of what got you interested in this topic to begin with. That's a
good one. I mean, I can go all the way back to even
and I guess I was in high school or junior high school and being interested
and vaguely remember going to a conference in Kansas City and passing Alan Heinick just
I had no idea who he was and I was a nobody. I grew
up in Indonesia. My parents had an experience when we were over there back
in the late fifties that I didn't even find out about until years later.
But somewhere between that and my college years, and especially by the last year
of college, when I took a really interesting course in parapsychology and led to
other things, got me to read up a lot about how put Off and
always been impressed with him and my friend Tommy Boan and and after that it
just things seemed to snowball, and somewhere along the way through through tom especially,
you know, I got to know Alan Heinick, and for a little
while before he passed away, I did some things with a center. Few
of our studies sent a few reports in, but for the most part,
it seems to be a lot of people. It's kind of independent interests and
trying to step carefully and not make the wrong step and try to follow the
leads where they go, and that seems to be a lot. That's actually
what originated this entire paper, which I wrote a list of questions I began
to have on my own and just started following those and that ended up with
this and then I sent it to you and here we are. Yeah,
it wasn't the plan. I promise you it wasn't the plan. Well,
you know, you do raise some interesting questions. We'll go over them tonight,
whether there'll be answers out there or not. We also are going to
have a call in so you know, during the second hour. So if
people have read the pdf, it's actually right now. If you go on
podcast ufo dot com, it's if people are watching the show there, which
the YouTube is embedded there. You'll see the pdf down below. It's twenty
two pages long and a lot of really good points. What has your feedback
been like? You've passed it around a little bit well, as you know,
month ago, about at the end of October, I had come up
with the first I guess it was about nineteen pages, a little bit less
at the time, and it was just a rough draft. And even at
this point it's not something I wrote with a purpose to publish or whatnot.
It was a rough draft and I sent it to you a handful of others
Joe Mergia and I'm David Batty and basically just said, hey, if I've
got something wrong, tell me, you know that sort of thing, give
me any feedback, And I got some nice response from Dave on it.
I understand there's a point I'll make here in a minute that you brought up
earlier, and not much else. People were nice enough, but I guess
if it's a draft, I didn't. I did send it to Title Rogue
away, and just because the point was the people who have put things out
there that helped me, I would felt at least, you know, I
can obliged to give them the heads up on it and send it to them
and let them take a look at it. But for the most part didn't
get a lot of feedback. There were some questions that I had, and
Dave Baty was helpful that way, and Tim McMillan, who worked with him,
were helpful that way. But then it was the question you raised that
really got me thinking. And it was when you it was this some of
my interests began to revolve around the question of Douglas Kurth and what he saw
and what Dave Fraver saw, and why the two didn't seem to the descriptions
seemed to vary a good bit. And then when you wrote me back and
said, how do we know what Douglas Curse saw is what Dave Fraver saw?
And for some reason that hit me. It just I just realized,
right then, you know, we're all presuming that what we're being told is
the way it is. And wow, that set me off on a whole
different path of looking at facts. I spent a long time. I wrote
to the pilots, asking questions about which aircraft, who flew what. Did
a lot of research when all the way back found some of the early things
that Kevin Day had written, and even all the way back to where the
original Flair video had been posted in two thousand and seven, and not many
people are aware that a little later in that post, there's a what it
basically seems like a page or so out of a log file that describes the
pilots that went out. It's an event summary, and that began to and
especially even in the executive summary, if you look at the times, I
began to realize quite a minute, Douglas Curth was out an hour and a
half or two hours before David Fraverer claims he launched. Fraver is known for
saying all the time they left between twelve and one, somewhere in that time
frame, and even is a wing man or the pivot Alex Dietrich had has
stated that they left some time noon or after. But even in the executive
summary where it talks about Douglas course outing, he was out there initially doing
a post flight maintenance or post its flight check, something to that effect,
which struck me because that's not what David Fraber initial initially says. They were
doing a air defense exercises, a two v two two planes fighting against two
others, And I compare that with the article that was written by Paco Chierici
in twenty fifteen. It seemed to be the main source where a lot of
this got started, and maybe even where Robert Poll got started. And even
he says that Douglas Kurth was doing a post maintenance flight check. But they
both seemed to suggest that Kurth went out there, saw this three hundred foot
disturbance in the water one hundred fiftywo hundred meters, but then they told him
to skip it, and you're like that he was already right there, and
he actually says he flew right over it. Then he says he saw Fraber
coming in, and Fraver claims he saw this cross shaped thing under the water.
But if you'll remember in the original paper, I pretty well stopped fair
because it was Douglas Curth saying he looked back and saw the disturbance had disappeared.
But it didn't disappear in Fravor's story until after Favor had his encounter.
So there was a conflict right there. How could it be gone unless Douglas
Kurth was right on top of it the whole time. Now, I don't
think even that's the case, because I think Kurth must have been out there
earlier, perhaps by himself originally because his flight number, and in the PDF,
I go into all of this, and even at the very end there's
a photograph that I found showing Curse plane with his flight number with a plane
number on it and his name printed. But that's not one of the two
flights that were supposed. We went out when Fravor went out. So the
whole paper began just these conflicts that didn't add up. And one of the
points that you mentioned it earlier that I guess I want to say up front
to kind of hit everybody off at the past, is the comment has been
made. Reading the paper, it's hard to know where where I'm going.
But that wasn't why I started writing. It was just pure analysis. I
was just hit an a domino and following it where it went. So I
understand that if you're looking for me to reach a point and tell you a
given conclusion, this is what the fact is. Well read it in the
sections and understand the questions, because if my aim is to get a lot
more questions raised, and in fact, I have a quote I found this
even this morning that says, we don't know the answers, but we have
plenty of evidence to support the questions. And that's a quote from Harry Reid
when he originally came out and admitted that he had backed the A Tip project,
And that's kind of my point. The point is there's things that don't
add up, and there are questions I have. I hope we have good
answers. I mean, I want to have faith in the paper starts with
the idea that you know, we all are hopeful for what to the Stars
wants and what they professed to be about and what they're claiming they're going to
do. Frankly, I know somebody's going to ask me what I think.
And this whole thing is looking a lot more like an opt to me,
like there's something else what's going on, because we're getting a narrative with Fraver's
one story, and there are aspects of even things Kevin Day wrote back in
twenty ten that don't match Fav's story or even Curth's story that seemed like a
completely third encounter with somebody engaging an object up at twenty thousand feet that shot
right down into the water, and when the pilot flew away, it shot
right back out and went on its merry way. That's practically quote. And
I'm like, so, how many encounters were there? And it's just not
adding up. I mean, things are not adding up the way it was.
Of course this started with me was how Kurth ended up at Big Low
Aerospace in two thousand and seven before any other name seemed to have appeared.
The pilot who was there starts working at Big Low Aerospace, and he wanted
I did, right, I did reach out to Douglas Kurth and he was
nice enough to reply. But of course he's says anything that he had to
say has already been published in Good Luck, so he doesn't want to talk
and which of course is an interesting to me as well. But yeah,
well, you know, there's you know, two two things right off the
bat. I want to say, first of all, Um, I think
Kevin Day is and I do believe you feel the same way as totally credible.
I also feel David Fraver is credible, but they do. There is
a little bit of conflict there. M you know, there was obvious at
a conference, um you know several months back, and UM that there's a
little bit of conflict of uh, you know, what one person is speculating
over another. Mostly I want to say, David Fraverer, has you know
speculated um that uh you know, other people don't know um that actually do
you know? For instance, Kevin Day? But um, you know,
I have some questions I'm going to throw at you to get your opinion as
we go along here, But if you would, and kind of a nutshell,
can you tell us basically what we're going to be covering tonight besides you
know the Nimits. Yeah, sure, you're you're touching on a lot of
the different things I know we're going to talk about. But there were basically,
yeah, there were basically four sections to this paper that I broke it
down into. The First one was just questions on this Nimits narrative because of
the conflicts that even initially I was seeing somehow, you know, the two
things can't seem to be right or they seemed to have big discrepancies. A
second, it's questions on a Navy I think the way I worded it was
a Navy investigation behind os APP and a tip because I think there's undeniable indications,
especially because and I've documented it. Some things. Eric has said some
things. Pacocier Ici has now said that there was an ONI investigation that went
on, and in fact, the person who originally wrote the executive some reary
the classified version or the original investigation was a GS fifteen with O and I.
But if this was long before OSAP and a tip came out, then
there's and that was actually one of the things that started in the set of
questions I wrote to myself was and it's in the beginning of the paper,
is you look at these things, and it's hard not to think that the
Navy is some kind of a silent backer or a silent player in all of
this, because it allowed was Onder to take the videos and resign and immediately
go to work to the stars and use those videos as promotional material no consequences
that always seen. You've got the Navy changing some of their pilot reporting policies,
You've got a lot of these things happening. There's even a comment how
put out and I think in his sc conference where he says that these Navy
pilots were permitted to speak, well, it's a kind of an unusual way
to say it. If they're supposed to be retired citizens. They able to
do what they please and feel like speaking anyway. The third section was kind
of interesting to me as well me personally, because it was the idea of
how did the DeLong situation which started out with kind of in the wiki leaks
and his meeting the people at Lockheed, end up with him with the Two
the Stars, because there's a gap in there which there doesn't seem to be
a connection the people he originally was writing out that he first met and suddenly
now he's co founding Two the Stars with how put Off and Jim Simmivan.
And so that was more of an intriguing little analysis in there, and I
think from what my opinion at this point is that Kick Green played a hand
in that, because I don't know how the connection was made there, but
a description sounds a lot like him. And then, of course, the
final, maybe the shorter section on this was why a Two the Stars after
all of that? Why create a Two the Stars Academy? If you're going
to do a Navy investigation, if you're going to be investigating all of this
sort of thing, why the same kind of many of the same names at
least that were in the big low aerospace the bass kind of arrangement, and
have carried through all of this why a lot. You're right, these are
people that I have had a lot of respect for. I've read about for
years. I mean, oddly enough, I looked a little bit at Stephen
Justice. This is a brilliant guy. I mean, like his designs,
he's visual a heck of a thing. To practically retire from all those years
at Lockheed the month before you suddenly show up on stage with two of the
stars. You know, my impression originally was they've got something. I don't
know what, but they've already got something. And now I think probably the
officer of the Secretary of Defense is helping them because of something stated in that
krada, that Army krada that was put out there about some of the materials
that they've got. But but so it's basically was these four different sections that
the questions I had eventually led me to really be focusing on. And and
it's simply to raise questions to ask you go out and get the answers that
we want. I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not against anybody.
I just I laughed at myself because I may I mention this to you.
This is like somebody wants you to buy a car invest money in it,
Well, you should ask for the carfax, and you should they should expect
you're going to ask for it these days, they should just have it ready,
be upfront about it. So when you begin to get their feeling that
the stories aren't tying together and things you might want to know, they don't
want to talk to you, you know, which sadly after the end of
the first paper you wrote me the question about to the Stars is not being
inclusive of those in the UFO community. And some of the recent comments that
came out on Grant Cameron show them talking to Melinda Leslie about Jim sum Evan
saying nope, they want to talk to You're not interested. Okay, it's
their company, but they're looking for people to invest money, and they're certainly
going on the talk show circuits and going out to the conferences and talking to
the UFO community and wanting input through their Vault app that they're going to be
making. So it seems to me, yeah, you know a little more,
a little more upfront with some of the information and explaining some of these
conflicts. I would like to just have explanations to put my own mind at
ease, right hopefully that everything's okay and everything's on the up and up.
Yeah, yeah we can. We can all hope for that. I had
thought that Tom Delong's sister, who was the publicist for ttsa UM. I
was thinking that she, you know, perhaps maybe she had not had a
background in and uh in this this type of thing, and they researched her.
I think it's carry maybe I believe, I think, but but she
has she has a background in doing what she's doing. So because I've been
kind of surprised that there hasn't been a lot of you know, connectivity when
someone like myself or someone that has a really good show or UM you know
that tries to you know, keep on the up and up, UM contacts
them, you know, they're generally not replying, you know, and but
they use we can be used as a tool when needed. That's kind of
how it feels in some ways. I'm not. It was something something I
read the other day, but I wish I could remember who it was,
because I am it's important to me to give credit to all these other people
who've done all this good work that has helped all of us keep on top
of things. But the comment was something to the effect that, you know,
David Fraver only talks to George and Napp and Jeremy Corbell and somebody else
only talks you know, Jim Simmovan only talks to Wellenda Leslie and whomever.
And it's like, you're right, you want to get them on your show,
and only specific audiences are they seemingly willing to talk to. I mean
I, as I said, I reached out to a couple of the pilots
that I was confined, and generally they were nice, but not talkative,
not wanting to answer questions. You know, Fravers seems to be willing to
say just about everything, but most of the others are pretty tight lipped or
don't want to say anything, or don't want to talk at all. And
I would think, if you're really trying to promote this as an why not
have Kurt on the show with Fever. You think, here's a guy who
went to work at big Ole Aerospace would be a huge proponent to back all
of this information up, could explain his involvement, But I don't know.
For some reason. It seems to be very tailored the way the narrative is
going, and that's my concern. I don't really know why bothers me when
somebody won't tell you things that you want to know, and if if I
get it wrong. I reached out and tried to ask questions and wanted to
send them stuff to see what they have to say. And I'm not saying
I'm going to get everything right, but I don't think I can be held
totally accountable if I've made some errors or some mistakes, because these are just
questions, and I think people should ask, but I think everybody should be
looking at them because something doesn't add up. Well, the thing that you
kind of uncovered or I actually have I believe I've seen it before, or
maybe I followed what you wrote. But is it Paco? Is that how
you say his name? I think it's Poco. I think Paco Chierici.
That's my partna Poco. He was given a classified document and was able to
use it to write his article and they had to turn back to me.
That seems like the biggest question of them all to me. Well, and
that's why it's the first big, main, big type lead at the top
of this thing, because that stunned me back in October when I was doing
all of this research, and this was in the first paper that I sent
to you, and Dave Beatty and toadar rug Away and Joe Mergia and Danny
Silva and a few of those that I laughed when I told you. I
said, it's one of the advantages of being able to sit here all day
and just look for things that I happened to come across another podcast by another
guy. I guess it was a fighter pilot podcast, you know, Alpha
the person, the whole whatever personalities, and he had to Pacucci Reachi on
there, and they spent the longest time talking about all this cool stuff,
you know, pilot stuff. You know, I've always been impressed. It
amazes me. These pilots are a bunch of tall, good looking guys and
they're just an amazing fighter pilot materia. Yeah, and they're amazing. But
you know what, Chris, I'm sorry, I got you leaded and led
you into this question and we have to go into a break. So we're
going to pick it up right here when we come back. So this is
Martin Willis with Chris Lambright and we'll be right back right after these messages.
So for right now, we've got to you know, three minutes on YouTube
only, and so we'll we'll bring up something else. Can you go over
basically your book X to sending for those who may not be aware of it.
Yeah, it'll be a nice kind of a little aside thing, because
if people really do wonder why I cared to dig into all of this,
a lot of it proudly did stem from that episode of Unidentified where they talked
about the Kirtland Air Force space incidents, which was clearly the Paul Benowitz story.
That never mentioned his name or anything. And the point was I knew
a little bit about that and Paul Benowitz. Of course, the whole issue
was he was a man and had a successful company and lived in the nice
part of Albuquerque, and had had an interest in things that were going on
up in the northern New Mexico Dulcie area. This is back in the late
seventy nine to late nineteen seventy nine, and at some point, long story
short, was on the roof of his house and happened to see some things
take coming and taken off from out of the Manzana Weapon stage area. So
he had some good camera equipment hassiblad camera, another one mounted on a telescope,
and over a period of several nights from his roof he got film and
still shots of these objects that would on the mountain nights out and one time
the mountain down lights out in five seconds. So these are very very fast
objects. And even at one point his wife was out there and he said,
get ready, here they go, and they took off and shot down
around the end of the mountains. He had all this on film and somewhere
in around January, I guess when he got the film developed or whatnot,
is when he finally picked up the phone and called down to the base at
Kurtland and got first he got in touch with Ernest Edwards, who then put
him in touch with Richard Doughty. So for anybody who wonders this is where
Richard Doughty's name came into all of this is because he happened to be the
person on the other end of the phone who talked to Paul Benowitz. But
what started at all was these films. It wasn't picking up signals from the
base, which is the whole story. That they tried to sell. The
idea is Paul saw some things. And here's also one point to be made,
why forty years later, almost would they still be trying to push the
issue of none and it was nothing to It was just Russians. It was
whatever else Dody would be out there. I've had that question asked. It's
a fair question. Why still keep piling on to try to keep the story
buried? And I didn't appreciate the way it was presented in that episode of
Undentified and the way they tried to demean Paul. It's all clear. I
wrote a little section at the end of this paper for anyone who wants to
know, you know why it mattered to me that I'll fill in that kind
of information and anyway. So that's the That's the book X Descending, which
actually covers two films, the ones Paul took and two amazing incredible films that
Ray took that both of them tied back into the Air Force research lab.
So the book is about those films. Race, we're ready to go back
in. Well, it's over three minutes. Race you there, We're ready
to go live. I'm here, my brother stand by, and I'll count
you down. All right. I was over here on another computer getting everything
sorted for the phone calls. I had a phone call already coming in.
Oh geez, I gotta get ready for that over here too. Oh good.
Here, let me oops stack, I gotta get the signed in now,
so that I'm ready. Okay, I'm in okay, and we've got
bumper Roland And if you're ready, my brother, I'll go ahead and get
us going. Yeah, we're ready in five four three two. All right,
welcome back. This is Martin Willis and I have Chris Lambright. We're
here on podcast. You a folk. Chris, I made a note of
where we ended, and you know, I looked down. I can't read.
I wrote it with my left hand. I can't read my own writing.
So we're basically talking about I think you're mentioning a pilot. Yeah.
It was po Poco's comments that he made at the tail end of this other
podcast, in which at that point the host of the other podcast said,
Okay, I have to ask you about the article, the twenty fifteen article
or the X Files edition terrific article. If anybody hasn't read it, to
go find that, and he meant he brought it up, and Paco began
talking about it, and that's when he says he talked to Fraver and when
he called him to ask about writing it, and Fraver said, what a
coincidence. They just left my house and they're doing this investigation. And Paco
says he got a copy of this. I believe the way he worded it
was exhaustive classified report, and he said they interviewed everybody. Right. I
don't know how long the report was, but it was several pages. I
mean, I'm not saying fifteen twenty pages long, but I do remember him
explicitly stating it was an exhaustive classified report where they talked to the pilots,
the radar operators, the submarine. I'm like, whoa, and that's when
he says, yeah. And I had it for two weeks before I wrote
my report, and then I had to give it back and I had never
heard that. I'm like, wait a minute, now, there's clear evidence
that somebody has done some kind of investigation. That was a classified one that
he got to and of course I did add it at the very last year.
The other day, he's now actually come out on another podcast and just
addressed this whole thing, talking about how I think Dave Beatty, after I
wrote him and sent him the paper last in October, wrote me and asked
me about that, and he said he's gonna put Poco. And that's when
apparently Poco wrote him back and said, yeah, he doesn't want to tell
him where he got the report, but asked Dave, asked Faver. And
subsequently Poco has come out and said it was an O and I investigation,
although now he kind of says, well, I'm thinking maybe it was an
a tip a tip in twenty thirteen from what we've been told seventeen R Well,
this is twenty fifth. Excuse me, I'm sorry. Twenty fifteen is
when he wrote his article in the March of twenty fifteen, which in fact
was obviously even a little few months, so to speak, before Don DeLong
supposedly had gone to Lockheed, and before anybody had even heard of to the
Stars or anything along that line. But it struck me as odd that wait,
if somebody is willing to loan him a copy of this exhaustive report for
two weeks to help him, I guests write his article. Although he says
in this most recent interview the last few days back. I guess that he
said, through a circuitous route he got his hands or got a copy of
that article that he looked at, but that it was an oh and I
investigation, although now maybe he thinks it was a tip. But I'm like,
he said, oh and I. Arry Davis had apparently mentioned to Linda
Howe that the early rope that the executive summary was drawn from was done by
an OENI investigator who was a GS fifteen, So there was clearly sometimes in
fact, if you go and look at the reports from all the way back
to the newspaper articles. Even Fraverer has stated that he got a call from
his friend Douglas Cheeks Kurth, who's the other pilot who was working at Big
Ole Aerospace that somewhere in the two thousand and eight or timeframe, somebody else
who was already wanting to do an investigation. A weird way to put it,
he said, we have a customer who wants to investigate this. Can
we do it? I'm like, who is the customer? We don't really
know. But that's when I began to realize, clearly there's been an investigation
going on that through two different sources have stated it was an OENI investigation.
But according to what I've heard through Linda Show and Eric and whoever stating that
the executive summary was facilitated, I think the way Linda put it, facilitated
by this manager at the DA to get it to Eric and how for them
to analyze or to look at because it had been classified. So clearly there's
a passified version, a classified report. The executive summary is kind of the
declassified, sanitized version. But somebody's loaning it to Paco Chiericci for him to
write his article, which suggests to me somebody wants this publicized or somebody is
willing to have the information out there. And one of the things that I
noted and that I believe was somewhere in this information this article is that's when
you first heard Douglas Curse's role was first I heard was in Paco's article where
he described having been out there and seen the big, huge circular shape in
the water. He doesn't quote Curse, So if you look at it that
way, it's pretty clear from what I can tell, he must have gotten
the information somewhere, probably in that ONI investigation that he got and even though
the names are blocked out, it's clear that it's Curse description even in the
executive summary. But it doesn't fit with the outing as far as I can
tell. When Faber says he was out there and Curse said saw them coming
in and then he turned around, and you know they told that they called
him off, said skip it, and Fraber makes it out that time.
Believe him right that their new aircraft he was in has a larger fuel capacity
than Curse, so they wanted him to go out and stead. But Churs
already there and he described seeing it's so why would and you don't ever hear
about My first thought was where it was Curse wingman if Fraber said they were
going to do this air defense exercise, but Kurs never mentions having had a
wingman, I'm thinking and this flane later on wasn't the one. So there's
conflicts in here. There's conflicts even down to the naval investigation end of it,
Office of Naval Intelligence, whoever was doing the investigation, that doesn't hold
up. And my thinking now is something was going on from two thousand and
seven, which is where House said this guy started in June, very specific
month, June of two thousand and seven, then Douglas Kurth ends up at
big Low Aerospace. There was a comment I have been people to document where
I saw this, yet a comment that I think was attributed to Jacques Valet
that he supposedly had done the database for BASS and it was then handed over
to a pilot, which is kind of an unusual way to put it,
if my memory is correct, which made me wonder if that wasn't Douglas Curve
for some reason there. But the other thing about this that strikes me as
really strange, which may also tie into Alessando having been with the Office of
the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, not for acquisition and sustainment or acquisition and
technology, but for intelligent Of course, he was at the top of all
of this all along, and for some reason when the money for the Harry
redass At contract, all we've known of that came out of that money seemed
to be a pretty extensive effort to gather other information. I think I think
it's pretty clear that's where the money came to buy into MUFON's database, how
went out and had those thirty eight DRDs written. So for some reason there
was a real effort to gather more information about the UFO phenomenon in general from
many available sources they could get, which struck me, as you would think,
as most of us who've been at this a while, I think,
Okay, somebody up there has all the data on why would you need to
go out and get into a public database and a public UFO groups database.
Why would you be going out? And so I'm not sure how. I
don't really have a clear mindset on how that works yet, but it's obvious
that a lot of what was going on over the last number of years had
to do with going out and gathering extra extra information from other sources, not
like somebody already had that. And I don't know, you know, I
don't know whether I don't know. But at the same time, if an
investigation had been done by O and I, who is Favor talking to in
early twenty fifteen when Paco called him up and Favor says, yeah, they
were just here, who was doing that investigation? And why has Fraver alluded?
That was a big question a lot of people have had. Why has
Fraver made it sound like nobody talked to him until twenty seventeen He even said
in one of the programs that one of the other pilots called him up and
said, hey, have you been talked to yet. No, Well,
I've been talked to you by the Pentagon five times, and Fraber said,
give him my number and I'll talk to him. But somebody was at Fravor's
house in twenty fifteen. Yeah, So I don't know. It's just there
are a lot of these questions that don't seem to add up. One of
the things I just want to make a point, a little side side note
here, and that is that if a lot of people have speculated that the
tic TACs were some type of you know, Air Force or some other type
of you know project, a secret project, and they were just testing to
see how the Navy react, you know, would react to it, that
type of thing. A lot of people have been speculating that. But why
would they have an exhaustive, year long, you know, investigation if that
was a case that, I mean, everyone would be in or know about
it, you know, at that level, at the upper levels that would
initiate an investigation like this. So I'm just kind of making that point.
Well, it's a thought actually that I was talking to someone about this morning,
which started with this idea of why would somebody be talking to em twenty
fifteen and why would Elasando need to be going and interviewing everybody in twenty seventeen
if they'd already done this investigation back, you know, if a tip was
onto it way back. But then the thought occurred to me, it almost
sounds like somebody's trying to retrace the steps and recreate the appearance of doing this
investigation for a tip. But at the same time, it occurred to me,
if you were going to test your equipment and make a point to somebody,
it wouldn't be bad to test it around your own strike group, because
you know there's not going to be anybody else around there, and apparently they
make sure these guys don't have live AMMO and if you can fly around out
there and your special radar seems to be able to pick them up. Although
some other really interesting articles I could credit a lot of credit to title rouge
Away in the Drive and Tim McMillan. They write some good articles on special
projects and the new radar technologies and whatnot, and this whole idea that there's
I think it was called nemesis, some type of ability to shoot drones out
that would like fake the presence of navy carriers and other things out there.
But if you had something like this tic TAC and you tested it out there,
and you showed whoever the dog and pony show to your senators or whomever,
that you've got this stuff nobody has, maybe one of the first things
you'd wanted to do is make sure it looked like you didn't have it,
that you didn't know what it was. You might play it up as UFOs,
And now you're desperately looking for meta materials and you're trying to reverse engineer
it so that any of the other countries, intelligence a just anybody who was
looking at it would be just as confused as you described. Why would we
be doing all of this if we already had this stuff? So I don't
know. I mean, it's I'm not saying it's a perfect theory, but
this did occur to me, the possibility that what we're now trying to do
is to make sure it looks like we don't have it, so nobody's focusing
their tension on us, nobody's All the spies in the world aren't suddenly trying
to saturate, you know, over here looking for the information. But I
don't know. It's a tough call when you, you know, when you
think of some of the And I agree, David Fraber is a very convincingly
just like Kevin Dave. I mean, when I looked at Kevin Day's first
one, just like you can't doubt that something happened out there, that whatever
it was, had a real serious impact on these guys. I don't know
what the rest of the soil story is, but something, something was out
there. I just don't know whose it was, right. Another question I've
asked on this show before, I haven't asked you what you thought about it,
is why do you suppose some people had to sign an NDA and some
people did not, like Faver for instance, I mean, why would you
know being a firsthand witness like that. I know he was debriefed, you
know, right afterwards, but I mean, no NDA. Yeah, that's
a tough call. Now, I do think, of course, keep in
mind people are being told not to talk. It's pretty standard fair in this
thing, going way back, we always hear about I mean, not men
in black, but people being told, you know, you didn't see anything
that's the right answer. Why the pilots, from what we're told, we're
not told, were never told not to talk. I don't know whether that's
because maybe if maybe, if it was something we were testing, you would
know with the advent of the Internet and with the on the supernets and with
people emailing things. Even I think Galax Dietrich, the co pilot Fravers wingman,
had made a statement that when she got back, she wrote some notes
and sent it off mailed up to her aunt at home, saying, hold
on to this at some real X files shipped, you know, So maybe
you just realize at some point these days, you're never going to keep it
all quiet. Why they would tell the radar technicians. That's a good one.
And at the same time time, in all fairness, I made the
comment and I mentioned it to you before. You know, some of the
descriptions of the planes that went out Fravers encounter Kurth being out there an hour,
How can Kevin Day not know that? How can they not know where
these planes were? And then if you were going to investigate frav why wouldn't
you also talk to Kevin Day? He was the main riverman on duty at
the time. But in all fairness, it occurred to me unless you've already
got the radar data which you can use to recreate everything that would have been
seen on the radar systems of the ships, So you might not need to
go back and talk to the technicians anymore because you've got all of that somewhere.
I mean, I don't I don't have a real answer for that.
I mean, not speculation, but I don't know whether. And keep in
mind, as I mentioned earlier to you, I think how put Off in
his SSSE conference stated that these navy pilots were permitted to talk about this.
I have no real good explanation, but my gut feeling right now from everything
that I've looked at with his paper, seems to suggest there's a narrative that
they were willing to use, and they wanted to use the Nimets case.
And why have fifteen different encounters or three different encounters out there if you can
just narrow it down to the one instance which Faber was involved in, to
tell him he can talk about anything he wants, but this is the narrative.
Kurt was out there right before you. We called him off, And
I don't even know why they would mention Kurth if he was at Big Larra
space, except that Paco mentioned him in that twenty fifteen article, so kurse
name was already out there. But maybe they at some point wanted the pilots
to speak or didn't want And I don't know. It's curious because when the
executive summary was Eric Davis apparently, according to what I heard of Linda House
saying one of her shows, had said that the original report was not put
on Navy and DoD stationery specifically, I think to keep it from being classified,
but then later on the d I classified it. Why would you not
want it classified? Or was that an effort to keep it out of the
hands of people who would classify it? Right, you can just leave it
in your drawer, you can take it with you where you want, don't
have to answer questions. Maybe not having the pilots talk about it, or
maybe they were told not to talk, but maybe somebody went back later and
said, Okay, we're going to do this thing now. Now you can
talk about it. You just can't tell us. I can guess all day
long. What if they were told don't speak about it, you need another
connected Initially, Yeah, or they were told don't discuss this. But now
somebody comes back and says, all right, we're going to give you permit
as hal as Hal said, permitted to speak about it now. Well,
you know, I have a real good answer there. You sent me a
link to Paco actually being interviewed and Cherici is that how you see his last
name? I think I think so. So he's being interviewed, and he
said that he was talking about David talking with David in a bar several years
ago, you know, previous to twenty fifteen when he heard that story first.
So um to me, that sounds like David was able to talk about
it whenever he wanted to. That's about yeah, exactly valid point if he
was one talking David. Faber has made the comment they'd sit around the bar
and talk about the strangest things they've seen. And he said, I chase
the UFO and I agree that that's a conflict. Why would the text be
told not to speak of it? Except I don't know accept this. The
texts were apparently told not to speak about it by who whoever came on board
their ships and confiscated the data. I've not heard of anybody coming on board
to favor in his peril off the ready room and going in there and saying
hand over the tapes and don't speak about it. So perhaps it's only the
people who happened to be in a position to have encountered those whoever they were
that flew in and said give us all the data and took it away.
Maybe they were told that by whoever flew in to take the data. But
you couldn't go and talk to everybody and the pilots and everybody else on every
single ship, especially if there was no reason for you to go there.
So it wasn't the ad to my understanding, it wasn't the captains of the
boats. It wasn't the Admiral Sea the Navy contacting everybody and saying don't talk.
It sounds to me like it was just the people who came into the
presence of these guys who supposed we flew in and wanted to confiscate the tapes
and the drives and all of that, who say they were told and had
signed nondisclosure agreements. Maybe it's just favored and hang out with those guys,
And maybe he was not in a location where the men who came in on
their planes were But but you're right, it's something. It's another question that
I don't understand. I can't I don't have an answer for. Yeah.
Another part of what you touch on quite a bit actually is you know,
why the Navy. You know, it's kind of an interesting you know,
the Navy, not other branches, but there there's there's some type of connection
there and also with TTSA as well. Yeah, that was you're right.
That's one of the very very first things that I the questions I had was
why is the Navy one of the prime players. The witnesses are all from
the Navy. The ships were out there, that was all Navy. The
Navy seems to be doing the investigation. The Navy changes, they're reporting things
publicly comes out and says, okay, wasn't the Air Force? And forever
people have generally considered if it's the UFOs, the air forces is in charge.
And I don't know whether I mean just speculating here, but what if
it was the people who came in and took all the radar tapes, who
had picked all this stuff up were part of the old Bastion Air Force of
whomever who had the authority to come in and demand those tapes, and the
Navy didn't like it. The Navy's got pilots out there that are encountering these
things in their new radar systems, and the you know that they've got can
detect these objects, and everybody's seeing these things and then suddenly realize, now
these things are here, and we've been standing behind whoever's been calling the shots
on this before. I don't know. It's curious that in the TV episode,
even at Christopher Mellon makes the comment, you know, we're not trying
to do an end run around our government. Interesting thought to bring up,
you know, if you're doing some kind of run. But yeah, I
mean, and I have had plenty of people and you know as well as
I do in this in the history of this phenomenon, sightings out who in
the ocean, things coming in and going out of the Navy experiences. Some
of those are the most amazing ones for the simple fact that even in the
case of the name its episode of people talk about talking about why would we
be testing things one hundred miles off the coast instead of just doing it at
Area fifty one where it's all safe. Why would you risk flying something way
out there, and if it's flying around out there, it's probably not a
it's not drug runners or something that far out there over the middle of a
Navy carrier stripe group. But you know, the Navy has been at this
for a long time, even back when well, I don't you don't need
me to explain that, but but yeah, that comes up quite a bit
people wonder why is the Navy now seemed to be behind this. You know,
there was a comment from the lady I think it was in some of
the request that people were sending in for information on a tip and who's in
charge and a lady Susan Groff I think was her name, at the Office
of the Secretary of Defense. Had they apparently been getting feedback from the air
from the Air Force as well, and Office of Secretary of Defense finally said,
look, we're going to be the point man on this, so if
you have any information, you need to clear send it to them, which
maybe that's to stop some of the contention between the Air Force and the Navy
over who's saying what. But once again it was OSD involvement at that point,
which is kind of where Elizondo's got into all of this, which is
another thing I think I've fairly well decided that Alisondo was way up there,
not just some guy at the Pentagon that I actually did a search for the
National Program Special Management Staff, which is on his signed his resignation that he
was the director of National Program Special Management Staff. There's practically nothing on them,
at least available on the internet. I found one entry, but it
has to do with eye level place a group of people who are involved with
these special access programs, and looking into that is what pretty well convinced me
that I have a feeling Alisando was a part of this, way up at
the top when whatever started in two thousand and seven was first getting designated as
a special Access program, or at least something that required his input on it.
But I you know, it's kind of the whole idea of a TIP
and all SAP, and if a TIP was just a nickname that special access
programs often get nickname. So maybe, but then how comes out and says,
but all SAT was just one. I mean, I haven't had the
quote right in front of me, but in his ssee conference paper or report,
he mentions that, you know that this was just one program that when
the money ran out of it. It wasn't just the end of everything there
were. Doesn't mean that that funding was all the funding there was for whatever
other programs there were. So once again, it's a lot of questions.
But things just don't seem to be adding up. And I don't know what
that spells. What does it spell out? I mean, does it mean
that it's a bunch of you know, I mean, i'd laugh when I
think of the analogy of people talk about, you know, the Wizard of
Oz and don't look at the man behind the curtain, you know, as
though as though there's something and Machavellian going on. But if you remember the
story, the guy behind the curtain was a good guy, and then the
Wizard of Oz it was an okay guy in the long run. It was
just the way it was being done that makes people suspicious. And that may
be the case here, But I don't know, just when you're not getting
the full story and things seem to you know, even at this point,
it's not holding together perfectly well because if you look closely at it, you
can get all of these discrepancies. But you know, even going down to
the idea of the tic tac having smooth, no features, And in the
recent interview with I think it was Pacuca Ricci's interview where he's going back over
the ownine investigation, and he does, unfortunately kind of convey some of the
same attitude towards some of the other witnesses that no, none of that happened,
It wasn't you know, you know, But then again, what about
the story of we were having claimed that he saw these two extensions a little
lantana or the little tiny thing. Yeah, he saw that was close up.
And even in the SEU report it's got a sketch in there with two
little extensions on them, but I don't think there's any attribution for where the
sketch came from. And Fraber's interview with Jeremy Corbell, he's very clear about
it that you could see it clear as day. And one of the other
witnesses, I apologize, I can't remember his name right now, who's mentioned
standing from back from one of the screens and I guess somewhere on one of
the ships and seeing it very very clearly. Maybe then maybe that's why they
Why would you, why would they be more clear on that? And why
are our videos so fuzzy when they talk about what they saw it. It's
an interesting circumstances. Right. Well, we're right at our break at fifty
five, so thank you so much for listening. Everyone on with Christian Lambright
and we'll be right back right after these messages. That's it for the free
part of the show. Thank so much for listening. And next week we'll
be back with Shane Ryan. He's going to be talking about the Westall UFO
incident. Should be a great one. Don't forget to go over to podcast
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