WEBVTT

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This episode may contain content of a
graphic nature, including descriptions of physical and

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sexual violence against adults, children,
and animals. Listener discretion is advised.

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Hi everyone, I'm Talia and I'm
Tanya, and together we are Crimes and

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Consequences, a true crime podcast.
Hi everyone, welcome to Crimes and Consequences.

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My name is Talia and this is
my lovely co host, Tanya.

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Welcome back, everyone, Welcome back. We have a great story and we're

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thrilled to be on True Crime Daily. Thank you for everybody that has supported

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us. This story that we're getting
into is a Michigan story. It's one

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that I dealt with actually, kind
of on the peripheral of when I was

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working at the Attorney General's office a
long time ago, ages ago, not

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that long. If you haven't done
so already, subscribe, follow like us,

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join our patreonpatreon, dot com,
slash tnt Crimes and can get many

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more episodes just like this. But
with that said, are you ready for

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some true crime? I am.
Let's get into it. This one.

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This one's bad, this one's rough, it's it's got some some nasty things.

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And it was a cold case,
which I love cold cases. I

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love the cold cases are salt and
it's solved. Yes, So let's get

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a spoiler alert. It's solved.
This is about the terrifying Duval brothers,

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and I'm going to go through the
whole family because it's pretty scary. There's

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seven of them. It's but the
point, the focus of the story is

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about the victims. And I want
to be clear. There were two David

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Till and Brian Adgen. These were
two best friends. They met each other

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in fourth grade and they were close
ever since. They lived in the Detroit

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area of Michigan. And so you
have in Michigan. I don't know if

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a lot of people know this,
but we have what's called deer hunting season.

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Oh yeah, it's very popular,
very very popular. I mean people

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on average we get eight hundred thousand
people coming over for deer hunting season.

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So in this case, it went
cold for eighteen years as to what happened

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to David and Brian during the hunting
season. And I'm gonna explain to you

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what happened, but I want to
give you some background on them. So

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it takes place in November nineteen eighty
five, and as I said, they

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met in fourth grade, they had
this trip that they would do yearly with

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some family members and they would go
up north because everybody goes up north.

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Michigan's a mitten and they would go
like up north hunting, and up north

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is pretty much to me, anything
north of Detroit, anything, yes,

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and they yeah. So David till
he was a machinist, and he lived

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in Troy, Michigan, which is
not far from where we are right now.

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And Brian Ogden Ogen, Brian Ogen, forgive me, I'm so horrible

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with names. I apologize. Agen. He lived in Saint Clair Shores,

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which isn't It's not that they're not
that far from each other. And he

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was a mechanic. David got married
when he was nineteen, and Brian was

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single, but he was dating a
woman named Janice. And originally these two

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friends were going to go to a
place called White Cloud, Michigan. They

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were going to go there. And
for those that aren't familiar with Michigan,

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it's here, white Cloud's here.
Let's go with it, okay, yeap

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wit. And that's a very touristy
area. The western part of Michigan is

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very touristy because you have like Michigan
and will love to go, you know,

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to the lakes and everything. And
that's where David tills. He had

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a cabin and his family they had
a cabin there too. He had a

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brother named Matt. They were going
to meet up with Matt and David's dad

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and some friends. And what guys
do is they just have a lot of

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drinks, a lot of haunting,
and it's just like probably a lot of

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good food. I would think,
guys time, I've never done. It's

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guy's time. It's guys time.
So we're on the weekend of November twenty

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second, nineteen eighty five, David
went to Brian's house to pick up Brian

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and they were going to drive together
in David's Bronco. He got there around

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two o'clock and Brian was sleeping because
Brian often worked nights, worked late,

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and so Brian wasn't awake. It
took them a little bit of time to

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get ready and they were getting ready
to go to White Cloud. But they

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had this mutual friend named Dennis,
and Dennis he lived if you're looking at

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the Minten Okay, he lived on
the other side of where white Cloud would

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be. And they decided they would
meet up with Matt at David Hill's cabin,

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family cabin maybe the next day in
White Cloud, but they were going

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to go to a place called Mile
and meet their friend Dennis. And Dennis

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this is back in the day when
there were no Google right anything. Yeah,

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and Dennis had written a map to
get there and to give you a

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little idea of Mile. Mile has
a population of two thousand people. Oh,

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very small, very very tiny.
It's in Ascota County. It's got

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one stop light in the whole county
and the whole county city. No,

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the whole county, county, entire
county. Yes, it might know because

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I did this case. One stop
like the whole county, so that tells

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you. And it's very beautiful,
but it's not a touristy area. It's

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more it has more poverty because it's
not the touristy area. I've never been

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there, but I've driven through it
like past. It's it's very beautiful,

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but for some reason, the west
side is where people end up going in

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Michigan. They actually leave about five
o'clock. Right before they leave, David

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calls his brother and they don't have
cell phones, keep in mind, and

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so he calls from Brian's house and
he says, you know what, we

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might not make it there till Saturday, okay, And they decide to go

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see their friend Dennis. And when
they went to do that, I should

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say this, Dennis didn't actually draw
the map. A guy named David Jacob

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did. He made the map and
he out a major highway. Oh no,

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he forgot to put in M thirty
three. But somehow they made it

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to Mio and they found a bar
called Walker's Bar and Bowling Alley, and

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they went and they had some drinks
at Walker's Bowling Alley. They met somebody

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and there's a lot of David's So
they met a guy named David Welch and

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we'll just call him Welch. And
they asked David basically, hey, where

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is a place to have a good
time around here? But they're in Mio.

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I mean it's like, yeah,
that is probably the place the bowling

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at the bowling Alley. They wanted
to maybe just hang out, party,

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flirt with women, you know,
and mister Welch told him the bowling Alley

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is not the place to be.
Oh no, there was a place down

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the road. And Brian went to
the place down the road where David stayed

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and the place was called Northwood Gardens. And while Brian was there, he

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saw some ladies and he was flirting
with them. This is according to the

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people that worked there. And he
wrote something down on a piece of paper

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and handed it to a woman.
We don't know what he wrote down,

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but she didn't like it. Oh
no, yeah, and they got up

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and laughed, and Brian felt pretty
jaded. So he went back to see

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David and mister Welch at the Walker's
Bar and Bowling Alley. By that time,

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David Till was intoxicated. And that's
okay, of course, I mean

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that's what they're up there for.
That's okay, Yes, good guy,

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I am not judging him. And
they're still trying to find their friend Dennis,

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like where does Dennis live? And
they stopped someone they saw and they

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asked him, do you know Dennis
because it's a small town. And the

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guy was like no, but he
said, you'd have a better chance of

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finding him if your map wasn't upside
down. Oh oh no, whoops,

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I've been there. Yeah. I'm
horrible with directions. Actually, I mean

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terrible. I think that GPS was
invented and now and I still get lost

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night occasionally. I mean, I'm
bad. And he this guy did notice

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that they had an empty twelve pack
of beer in the bronco, so they

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were drinking on the way and they're
in mile, they're hanging out. No

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one knows what's on the note.
They ended up being I mean, honestly,

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they end up getting ship faced.
They laughed about the fact that the

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map was upside down. I mean, they are the boondocks. They ended

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up crashing somewhere I don't nowhere,
But when it came Saturday morning, they

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were really hungover. Oh, really
hungover. So they went back to the

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Bowling Alley and they kind of nursed
their hangover at the bowling Alley and they

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made some jokes about how they felt
like grab That was pretty close to the

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last sighting of them, but not
completely. But that's one of the last

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times they interacted with people. They're
nursing their hangover, and I think they're

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doing it. What's the name where
you what is it hair of the dog

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or hair the hair of the dog. They ended up going to a place

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called Linkers, and they were at
Linkers and some people accused them of grabbing

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girls, but her name was Barb. It was actually Brian that allegedly grabbed

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Barbes. But and then there was
accusations that David Till while Barb was playing

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pool, rubbed up against her.
I don't know if any of that is

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true, but I mean, she
claimed she was leaning over the pool table

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playing pool and she didn't like how
he was being so flirty. One of

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the workers at Linkers, it's called
Linkers lost lap Lah, Linkers lost Ladge,

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And that's why we haven't said the
whole the whole name. Her name

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was Cindy, and Cindy said they
came in and that they were kind of

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being a bit obnoxious because they were
intoxicated. At one point, David Till

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tried to pay the bill and Brian
said to Cindy, if you let him

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pay the bill, I'm gonna smack
you. But I'm sure he was just

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joking around. And that's pretty much
one of the last recorded times they were

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seen. David Till's wife, Sunday
Night, became really worried because they were

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supposed to be back. He had
work on Monday, and he was always

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very punctional, punctual, and he
didn't come back, and so she contacted

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the police the next morning on Monday. I mean, she was concerned and

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then she called the family and the
family said, you know, they never

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made it Toy Cloud. Then I
would be like, oh, oh right,

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oh something happened. Oh shit.
And so they started searching for these

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guys. And when I say searching, they hired helicopters to look for them.

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They were concerned that maybe they never
made it, maybe they had a

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car accident on the way, because
they don't even know that they made it

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to Mile because they never found Dunnis. Oh that's right. They have no

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idea, you know, where they're
at. And like I said, Matt's

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like, they never made it to
White Cloud. Then their first assumption was

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a car accident. It's got to
be a car accident because it's a lot

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of backroads, it's winter, it's
November, and so that's what they thought.

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Eventually, with the help of friends
and they contacted the police, they

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realized that they did make it to
Mile. But you have to remember Mile

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and this whole area goes from having
like two thousand people population to eight hundred

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thousand people coming in. So there's
this influx of men. I mean,

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let's be honest, they're mostly men, and it was really hard to pinpoint

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exactly where Brian and David were.
And there were a couple of people that

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thought they saw in there, but
this case ended up being cold for eighteen

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years. They just vanished, disappeared. The bronco that David drove never was

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found. Let me tell you something
I failed to mention to you about the

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town of Mile That is where the
Devale brothers live. Scary scary Dvall brothers,

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and there's a lot of them.
There's seven. So I'm going to

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go from what I described as the
least offensive and kind of work our way

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up into the more interesting characters in
the family. The Devall brothers were the

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proud offspring of Raymond Duvall and his
wife Shirley. She went by Whorli.

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So there were seven Devall brothers and
one daughter named Sissy. The youngest of

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the Dvall brothers, his name was
Kenny. And let me give you a

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little insight into Kenny, because he's
a baby of the family, right,

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you don't want to be the baby
of the brother No. When Kenny was

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little, for fun, the Devall
brothers tied him up with rope and hoisted

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him onto a tree and left him
there just for shits and giggles, you

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know, Yeah, torture your younger
brother, I guess is hilarious. He

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was arrested in nineteen eighty three for
spousal abuse, stocking his wife, breaking

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and entering, and at the time
he was smoking crack. Oh boy,

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Okay. He ended up getting clean
in his defense, and he started a

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company called you call we Haul.
Oh that's a great name, right,

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Yeah, and he enjoyed taking a
power cars. Then there was Tommy.

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He also went by Worm. Do
they all have nicknames? Pretty much?

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A lot of them? A lot
of them do worm? And I don't

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want you to be confused later because
there's another person with a nickname worm.

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Are you kidding me? Swarm the
worm? Hey, it's popular nickname.

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Apparently. I don't have a lot
of information on Tommy, and I don't

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really need a lot. It's fine. Next we have Frank. Frank was

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arrested and convicted for criminal sexual conduct. Oh no, in an incident with

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his friend's fifteen year old daughter.
Yeah, criminal sexual conduct is underaged victims.

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Yeah, he was thirty two and
he was an habitual offender. I

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don't know exactly where all his a
enes were, but he had warns all

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over the place for him, and
he once yelled out, all I did

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was transport the bodies. Oh that's
all just you know. So that's Frank.

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Okay, Now we have Randy.
Randy was able to scrap this is

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what he's known for six and a
half cars from January first to May twenty

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third, like quickly. I don't
know if it's scrap competition, I don't

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know. I just I don't know. If it's bragging rights, I don't

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know. But that was one of
the things he was known for, being

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able to scrap a car really fast. Okay, Well, and he was

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seen driving a Bronco. Uh.
Oh. He helped Kenny start a legitimate

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business, and so some of the
Duval brothers moved to Monroe County. Oh

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that's Southlake Toledo border in Ohio border. Yeah. Yeah, yes, So

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you have some up here and then
some down here trying to make legitimate life.

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I guess you got to get away
from my Oh probably, I'm guessing

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Randy and Kenny ended up putting missing
flyers for the hunters at their business.

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Okay, Okay, now we have
Rex also known as Rexy. Oh Sexy,

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Rexy. No, no, no, no, Rexy had lots of

204
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:41.640
pigs. Oh no, he had
a favorite pig. He had a favorite

205
00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:47.240
pig, and he let that favorite
pig stay in their house. Are we

206
00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:51.960
talking like little tiny pigs? Are
we talking about talking about a pig?

207
00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.039
A pig. He had a a
big, old farm pig. Okay,

208
00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:57.599
those pigs, they're they're huge.
I don't know if you have you seen

209
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.119
one in real life? Yes,
a pig, A pig in real life.

210
00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:04.559
Girl. You know, some people
don't get out to the country and

211
00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.200
they're huge. Okay, Okay,
I had a favorite pig, and that

212
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.960
pig was able to stay in his
house and pretty much run things. Okay,

213
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.319
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Okay, he had the run of the

214
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:25.960
house. It wasn't a little pig
like on Green Acres, right, No,

215
00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.359
little little Arnold. I remember that
show. So anyway, okay,

216
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:34.680
we are digressing. Yeah, I'm
sorry. Rex had a daughter and she

217
00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:42.119
shared some stories later about when her
uncles would come over, they would go

218
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:47.759
to the basement and she would hear
chainsaws, and they would come back from

219
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:52.480
the basement with five gallon buckets filled
with red raw meat, and they would

220
00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:57.039
go feed their pigs because there were
more pigs. Okay. Rex had a

221
00:20:57.039 --> 00:21:06.559
wife named Sharon, and they had
an abandoned bus in their backyard. And

222
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:10.559
do you know what they kept in
the bus? No, thirteen pigs the

223
00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:15.440
bus. The pigs lived in the
bus, yes, thirteen of them.

224
00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.640
Yes, Okay, buses aren't that
big. Okay, Well, I don't

225
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:22.480
know. I don't know. You
can have how many kids? Yeah?

226
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.559
But kids? Okay, you're right, I don't know. Maybe they cleared

227
00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:30.680
out. I am just reporting.
Okay, you're allowing bus. Well,

228
00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:33.880
they got it. I don't know
what they're living. Okay, we just

229
00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.960
moved on. That was a rhetorical
question. I'm sorry, I'm really I'm

230
00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.759
really like stuck on these pigs.
Okay, anyway, back to the story.

231
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:48.920
We're pretty sure Rex had something to
do with the disappearance of the Hunters,

232
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:55.319
just so you know. But Rex
died when he passed away in twenty

233
00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.039
twelve. Okay, I have his
obituary. Oh all right, let's hear

234
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:04.400
it. He was an avid outdoorsman
who appreciated his vacation time. Who doesn't,

235
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.480
girl, I love my vacation time. I think he was unemployed,

236
00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:14.799
I'm not trying to be rude,
but his whole vacation a perpetrator in this

237
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.839
case. And yes, he liked
horseshoes, fishing, boating, hunting,

238
00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:30.480
turtle trapping, and NASCAR. That's
it. And then in their obituary they

239
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:37.759
wrote that he was a bit bullheaded
at times. He must have been real

240
00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.079
stubborn. Please don't write that on
my obituary. Just say nice things.

241
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:47.400
You don't have to be honest.
I think obituary should be honest. Really,

242
00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.799
yes, she was a bit sometimes
she was a real pain in the

243
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:53.559
ass. Well, you know,
if they're writing he was a bit bullheaded,

244
00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:00.279
he was a lot. He was
very bullheaded. Right, So who

245
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:06.519
raised these wonderful boys? Well we'll
get to that, but I do have

246
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:14.319
to mention another particular boy, Jr. When Jr. Was thirteen, you

247
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:18.480
know, he's his dad's namesake,
Raymond Raymond. Oh, I get it,

248
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:29.559
JR. It's kind of sad.
He saw his dad beating early oh,

249
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.440
and he was beating the shit out
of Whirly. So he grabbed a

250
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:40.279
gun twenty two and he shot his
dad at thirteen. Wow. Both his

251
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.519
dad and mom had to go to
the hospital and they both survived and then

252
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.559
he didn't get in trouble because the
police said it was its self defense.

253
00:23:48.279 --> 00:23:53.599
And it kind of was a joke
in the family about Raymond Senior beating Worly.

254
00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.319
In fact, one of the jokes
made was that two of her boys

255
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:03.599
were born with black eyes. Oh, that's hilarious. That's horrible. Yes,

256
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:08.519
it's horrible. It's horrible. That
just gives you like an idea of

257
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.960
what this family is like, right, And that was kind of a trend

258
00:24:11.960 --> 00:24:18.039
with all the brothers. They enjoyed
beating up women. So I'm gonna talk

259
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:22.920
to you a little bit, a
little bit about j R. Raymond Junior.

260
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:26.519
He was born November eleventh, nineteen
fifty. He got married as a

261
00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:32.039
teenager and he went to Vietnam and
he served our country. He was part

262
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:38.039
of the military police. He had
a string of failed marriages and need a

263
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:47.519
bunch of different kids. One he
named Doobie. No, No, I

264
00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:51.160
love Saint Doobey. You know,
I do like St. Doobey. Yeah,

265
00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:57.440
Doobie, Okay, And then he
had Tom. Doobey was later interviewed

266
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:06.440
an investigation to see what he might
know and you know, any involvement with

267
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:11.400
what happened with the Hunters. He
was only seventeen when he was interviewed,

268
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:18.839
and he was in the County Youth
Home being held for criminal sexual assault along

269
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:25.920
with other ties. Wonderful. And
in nineteen ninety eight he became a homicide

270
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:33.880
suspect. There was a body found
on the railroad tracks in Monroe. And

271
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:37.799
as I told you, the Duval
brothers, they hang out in Monroe County

272
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:45.519
and then they're in Mio. A
man was put on his body was put

273
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:53.160
on the railroad tracks and they tried
first thought it was suicide, but then

274
00:25:53.960 --> 00:26:02.279
it appeared to be murder linked to
do be. Doobie talked about his violent

275
00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:07.000
childhood and how he was raped by
some male relatives. No, which is

276
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:11.359
sad. Yeah, that's terrible.
When he was eleven, he started doing

277
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:19.440
drugs probably yeah, to deal with
the trauma, right, And he said,

278
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:26.559
basically, my family is straight out
of a movie. And do you

279
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:30.960
know what movie? He described?
I have a guess what deliverance? Yes?

280
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:37.480
Yes, yeah? Did yikes?
He did. That's very scary.

281
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:44.880
So Doobie was jr. Son and
I haven't completely gotten into JR. And

282
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.240
then he has a son, Tom. Tom would strangle and beat his girlfriend

283
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:56.599
and one time Tom he went by. Tommy thought his girlfriend was getting out

284
00:26:56.640 --> 00:27:00.680
of control. In nineteen ninety seven, and now remember this already took place

285
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:06.119
in nineteen eighty five. He told
his dad, you know, go ahead

286
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:11.200
and tell my girlfriend what we do
to women. And his dad said,

287
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:18.920
we've killed before and we'll kill again. Oh wow, terrifying. Yeah.

288
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:23.640
Jr. Had a girlfriend, her
name was Eileen, for ten years and

289
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:29.160
they had two children. They lived
on a dirt road in a shack with

290
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:37.640
a dirt floor. Wow, in
nineteen eighty five. And it's it's sad

291
00:27:37.640 --> 00:27:41.799
because it was basically a hut and
it got really cold and they would talk

292
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.200
about how cold it was. I
mean, in all the information, and

293
00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.920
I got a lot of my information
from this book called Darker That Darker than

294
00:27:49.079 --> 00:27:55.279
Night by Tom Henderson. He is
a local writer and he wrote a great

295
00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:02.759
book on this. Jr's girl friend, Eileen and him were together for like

296
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:07.440
I said, almost ten years,
and he would beat her all the time.

297
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:15.200
Eileen was with him when the Hunters
died and she moved out on her

298
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:22.240
own. Eventually she's like, I'm
out and she married a guy named Nelson

299
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:34.599
Boltzman. Okay, Eileen didn't do
much better with Nelson. Nelson ended up

300
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:40.160
being charged with her murder. Oh. No, in nineteen eighty five.

301
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:45.559
Wow, he was charged in Mcomb
County, oh which is where we lived.

302
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.319
Yes, And he wrote a letter
to the Macomb County prosecutor. And

303
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:56.640
in his letter he stated that he
was wrongly convicted and that she was murdered

304
00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:02.200
by the Deval brothers because she knew
too much about the unsolved disappearance of David

305
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:06.960
and Brian. Oh, and that
she was murdered because of that information.

306
00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:15.880
And everybody agrees that Eileen probably had
a lot of information, but they don't

307
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:21.799
agree that the Duval brothers killed her. And let me tell you why.

308
00:29:21.920 --> 00:29:26.240
Well, they were probably people you
could easily pin a murder on, right.

309
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:30.799
I mean, they don't sound like
they're angels by any means, and

310
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.440
so it was probably easy for him
to be like, it wasn't me.

311
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.680
Well, I got the court case
for Nelson, his murder case, and

312
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:47.200
here's some evidence to show you kind
of why he he did it. They

313
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:53.759
were on a canoe trip, Nelson
was with Eileen. Witnesses saw them arguing

314
00:29:53.799 --> 00:29:59.680
in the pickup truck. The next
morning, her body was found on the

315
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:03.599
road one block from the home that
they'd been staying at. They were staying

316
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:11.839
at like a friend's house. She
was beaten to strangled with Nelson's shirt wrapped

317
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:17.519
around her neck, and he was
found sleeping passed out drunk one hundred yards

318
00:30:17.559 --> 00:30:22.039
away in his truck from her body. So they were not at their house

319
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.640
usually right, they were off on
a canoe trip. So the Deval brothers

320
00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:30.119
supposedly tracked her down on this canoe
trip, yes, and strangled and somehow

321
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:37.720
got Shelson's yes okay. And he
had threatened earlier that day to kill her,

322
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.920
and he had a history of choking
and beating her, and only a

323
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.279
few hours before her death, in
front of other people, he said he

324
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.000
was going to kill her. I
mean, you can judge for yourself.

325
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:56.640
Yeah, but he's in jail prison. So let's go back to when Jr.

326
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:03.960
Was with Eileen. They had some
between six and thirteen pigs. Okay,

327
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.160
I don't get hung up on them. I'm not. I'm past it.

328
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:10.759
Ti is an alcoholic. He had
lots of outstanding warns for his arrest,

329
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:15.680
and he didn't have a page child
sport. He had some DUIs.

330
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:22.359
There's this very interesting story about JR. He was part of a motorcycle gang.

331
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:27.559
Interesting. I don't only know how
I'm gonna say it all and be

332
00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:33.039
great, but be YouTube friendly,
okay, okay, Yes, So he

333
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:42.240
hung out with these motorcycle buddies and
on a dare he ate pig shit okay,

334
00:31:44.039 --> 00:31:47.759
And he never denied that, just
kind of dare, like not even

335
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:49.200
for money. I mean, not
that I would do it, but I'm

336
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:55.559
just saying, okay, go ahead. It's also believed that he kissed pigs

337
00:31:55.799 --> 00:32:00.440
genitals for five dollars. Oh well, at least he made money there,

338
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:06.279
stop it, sorry, and eventually
not to go to forward. But there's

339
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:12.839
testimony from another brother who said,
my brother had a pet pig and it

340
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.960
came in and now and did whatever
it wanted to do, more or less,

341
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:25.359
and it backed its ass up against
a wood stove and it burned its

342
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:30.279
privates. That's not the word he
used, and that was a direct quote

343
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:38.319
from court testimony. JR. Spoke
about it in court and he said he

344
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:44.079
passed out near the pig pen and
when he woke up, the pig's private

345
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:51.599
parts were in his face. But
others have said that for five dollars he

346
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:57.279
kissed the pig's private parts, and
he was teased about it all the time.

347
00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:04.160
Yeah, sounds it's a gatty great
story. So I've left out one

348
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.960
brother, Coco. Coco. His
name was Donald. You want to say

349
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:13.039
what's but he went by Coco.
Okay. Nineteen fifty two he was born.

350
00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.039
He got married to a woman named
Georgia. The first year they were

351
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.240
married, he broke her jaw,
wow, and he broke her nose.

352
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.279
And when he was asked later on
how he made a living, he said,

353
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.640
firewood and welfare. Oh. Perfect. He got divorced in nineteen seventy

354
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:35.799
six, and he got to keep
the dogs, the pigs, and the

355
00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:40.559
chickens, and he had cows running
around in his backyard. He was an

356
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:46.079
alcoholic, but he did not do
drugs. Uh. There's a story of

357
00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:52.400
Coco and Jr. Oh, I
can't wait for this. One time they

358
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:59.319
went to a party and they decided
at the party to fight each other for

359
00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:01.960
fun. Okay, I'm gonna beat
the shit out of my brother for fun,

360
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:10.199
for fun. During the fight,
Coco breaks Jr's nose and blood squirts

361
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:14.519
everywhere. JR. Says, time
out, time out, time out.

362
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:20.199
We need to reschedule this for tomorrow. Reschedule My nose is all fucked up.

363
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:24.679
Sure, that's how the events were
described. Coco says, okay,

364
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.159
tomorrow at noon, high noon.
They've got it. So they get there

365
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.599
and j R. Says, okay, there's just one rule. You can't

366
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:39.239
punch me in the nose, okay, because you just broke it. So

367
00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:44.920
where's the first place he punches him? Go punches him, of course and

368
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:46.480
none. No, of course,
you want to win the fight, don't

369
00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:52.480
you. You got to take out
your opponent's weakness. I mean, you

370
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:57.760
should have just never said anything.
So every fourth of July, the the

371
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:01.280
balls would have a Fourth of July
pig ro You know, they have beer

372
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:08.320
and guns and they kill a pig
and there'd be lots of fireworks. In

373
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:15.119
fact, some people blew off fingers. Oh are you surprised? But at

374
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.199
one time it ended up there wasn't
going to be enough meat. And this

375
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.639
is a true story. The whole
ass pig and there's not enough meat.

376
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:23.559
I don't know. But they get
a lot of friends. I don't know,

377
00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:31.800
So Rex Jr. And Rex's mom
worly they get into a jeep and

378
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:38.159
they're driving around and they spot a
neighbor's cow. Don't tell me. They

379
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:44.199
stopped the truck. They shoot the
cow in the head, and then Jr.

380
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:49.400
Took a chainsaw what right then and
there and cut the cow in half

381
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.440
on the field, and then they
loaded it up and brought it back to

382
00:35:53.480 --> 00:35:59.719
the party. Wow. If I
was the neighbor, that's a true story.

383
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:06.239
Damn. The Devals had a really
close friend named Schwarm. Sherm,

384
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:08.800
Oh, this is sher the Worm. Sure the worm, Yes, and

385
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:15.480
he was a very scary guy too. A man named David Henry Johnson told

386
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:22.280
investigators that one time Schwarm the Worm
was in a store and David Henry Johnson's

387
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.639
wife was there. Her name was
Kimberly, and he pushed her up against

388
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:34.480
the wall and started mumbling something about
killing pigs at it's just at a grocery

389
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:37.760
store. Yeah, and then he
put his hands on her and said he

390
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.679
could rape her whenever he wanted,
and there was nothing she could do about

391
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:49.119
it. David Henry Johnson confront and
Shehrmed the worm and that's when Sherm the

392
00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.800
Worm said, you know I can
feed you to the pigs. Oh no.

393
00:36:53.840 --> 00:37:00.960
So a woman named Connie Sandberg dated
Cocoa for nine years, madam,

394
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:06.440
when she's sixteen, he's twenty seven. She told the story about how they

395
00:37:06.440 --> 00:37:09.119
had broken up once and she was
on a date with a local sheriff,

396
00:37:09.679 --> 00:37:15.480
the a deputy's son, and when
the deputy's son went to pick her up,

397
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:20.239
the Deval brothers showed up and kicked
his ass with metal pipes. Oh

398
00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:24.239
oh damn. These guys do not
mess around. And nobody did anything about

399
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:30.679
it because everybody, everybody was afraid
of the Dwal brothers. Well they sound

400
00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:36.400
crazy. In Monroe, they silent. They were considered the Monroe mafia.

401
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:42.280
What okay that means? I get
it. Connie once told the story of

402
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:47.400
a time when Coco got really shit
faced, which short sh shirm the worm

403
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:52.760
and Jr. They threw him out
of the door of the truck and he

404
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.800
landed in the dirt and he passed
out in the dirt, and when he

405
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.119
woke up, she was there and
he mumbled something about out how he killed

406
00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:06.440
someone, and she said what,
And then he said the next day.

407
00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:12.199
The next day she asked him about
it and he strangled her. So and

408
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:20.039
Mourner, don't ever fucking ask me
about it again. And she didn't can't

409
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:24.679
blame her j R. He'd been
with lots of different women. He was

410
00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:30.599
with a woman named Donna and she
was pregnant with his baby. He would

411
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:35.880
later beat her and then on labor
day he dragged her around her mobile home

412
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:40.119
by her hair. So she left
him. Good for her, Yeah,

413
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:46.639
but before she left it, she
heard him talking to somebody about pigs and

414
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:53.079
people and hunters being missing, and
she made a joke about how could you

415
00:38:53.159 --> 00:39:01.800
feed someone to a pig. Pigs
don't eat skulls, they don't. Well,

416
00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:05.840
I mean, I looked it up. I'll tell you. Okay.

417
00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:07.599
He beat her up, punched her, and said he was going to feed

418
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:14.559
hurt to the pigs. So a
lot of people are scared. These Duval

419
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:20.920
brothers are talking about pigs. Blah
blah blah. One of the investigators actually

420
00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:24.960
reached out in this case to Michigan
State University swine expert to find out if

421
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:32.039
it's possible for pigs to actually eat
humans. The expert said that you would

422
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:37.679
need five or six pigs to be
hungry for a few days, and then

423
00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:44.440
they would probably eat a person in
about three or four days. Oh wow,

424
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:49.119
unlike what we think about pigs and
how they'll just need anything NonStop.

425
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:55.679
They actually do stop. And he
said eventually about seventy two hours after eating

426
00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:02.480
a human, they would excrete everything
that they eight. This investigator his name

427
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:09.440
was Bronco Leneski. So we have
a Bronco vehicle and we have Bronco Leneski

428
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:15.280
and he is actually the hero of
this story. He worked for the state

429
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:20.760
police and on his spare time,
because this is a cold case, very

430
00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.280
cold case, on a spare time, he would investigate the case, asking

431
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:31.800
questions, stirring things up. He
would knock go door to door and finally

432
00:40:31.840 --> 00:40:37.320
he got a tip from someone who
called in and said he needed to talk

433
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:44.639
to a woman named Barb. But
he didn't Barbe's address, so he went

434
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:49.000
door to door. Well, I
mean, there's two thousand people door to

435
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:53.119
door knocking trying to find Barb.
It took some time, but eventually he

436
00:40:53.199 --> 00:40:58.719
knocked on a door and said are
you Barb? And the woman cracked it

437
00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:04.920
open and said, you're going to
get me killed. And she tried to

438
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:08.960
shut the door, but he kind
of put its foot in and so he

439
00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:15.920
came inside and eventually she bean talking
to him about what she knew about the

440
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:25.000
hunters. She described. What she
described ended up later out later on matching

441
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:32.079
what the Duval brothers shared in nineteen
eighty six in Wickham, Michigan, at

442
00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:39.239
a dinner with the Duval family find
dinner conversation and friends. It took fifteen

443
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:51.679
years for Barb to come forward officially
and discuss what happened. She was too

444
00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:55.679
afraid to go on the record.
I mean during that fifteen years, one

445
00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:00.199
of her dogs got ran over by
the a Duval brother another one was shot

446
00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:07.920
in her front yard by Devall brother. She ran into the Devall brothers once

447
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:13.440
and they said, we know your
granddaughters and they're real pretty oh, in

448
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:19.119
a threatening manner. Yeah. There
was one hundred thousand dollars reward out there

449
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:29.039
for information leading to the you know, finding Brian and David, and Bronco

450
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:32.239
said Barb, now there's a one
hundred thousand because she's telling him things off

451
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:36.639
the record. And she said the
money is no good if I'm dead.

452
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:44.679
Good point, mm hmm. But
eventually, after seventeen years, she agreed

453
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:50.039
to testify against the Daval brothers.
She was probably scared shitless, right,

454
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:54.480
and this is what she said in
court happened she was at Linker's Bar.

455
00:42:55.159 --> 00:43:00.440
She was there with her friend,
Ronnie Emery, who was celebrating his first

456
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:06.960
legal kill of a buck deer.
Okay, and just so you know,

457
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:10.679
Ronnie is now dead. He was
an alcoholic and he died by getting so

458
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:15.440
drunk he passed out on the road
and someone ran over his head. Oh

459
00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:21.679
no, Barr believes he was murdered, but we'll never know. We'll never

460
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:25.440
know. So on the night of
the murders, Connie, who is Coco's

461
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:31.719
girlfriend, was dancing at the bar
Linkers, and a tiff began between the

462
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:39.159
Deval brothers and Brian and David.
Now Ronnie, Barb's friend knew when the

463
00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:47.360
Devall brothers are angry, shots back, so he called the police. And

464
00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:53.599
coincidentally, Barb was dating the police
officer. And there's probably two a mile

465
00:43:53.840 --> 00:44:00.239
I'm guessing, yeah, And he
never showed up. He said he didn't

466
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.800
want to get involved with the bar
fight that night, the police officer,

467
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:07.960
so he didn't show up. Okay, No, it'll sort itself out,

468
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:14.760
right. I guess Barb had been
drinking a lot that night. She had

469
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:19.280
at least nine salty dogs. I
don't know what that is, but Okay,

470
00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:23.079
I don't know. It doesn't sound
good and bloody Mary's Oh. While

471
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:28.719
she was at Linkers, she was
sitting on a chair and there's a payphone

472
00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:34.360
next to her and she overhears Jr. On the phone speaking with someone saying,

473
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:39.920
I'm gonna need your help. About
forty five minutes later, Schworm Firm

474
00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:46.280
Firm. The Worm showed up with
someone else. I think it was Rex,

475
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:52.159
but I'm not for sure. They
gave Bob. They gave Barb a

476
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.440
six pack of beer and told her
she'd better get the hell out of there.

477
00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:00.400
Bob, Barb, and Ronnie left. They went back to Barb's house

478
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:06.840
and it was about a mile away. They sat in Barb's living room and

479
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:12.199
they drank the beer and they watched
Scarface. On a side note, Barb

480
00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:15.559
has watched Scarface over two hundred times. Wow, it's a side note about

481
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:22.320
Barb. Wow. So they're watching
this and they hear some sounds and Barb

482
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:28.199
opens the kids her kitchen window and
the sounds you can hear more, And

483
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:31.280
Ronnie says, oh, I bet
the hunters are getting their ass beat.

484
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.079
So the two go out the front
door. They want to oh, yeah,

485
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:38.400
check it out. There has nothing
to do in this town, so

486
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:44.079
I'm sure watching a fight is interesting. When they go out the front door,

487
00:45:44.119 --> 00:45:50.920
there's a strange car there, and
I believe it's one of the brother's

488
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:54.599
cars. It's a car there,
and so they go back inside. They

489
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:59.599
go out the back door and they
walk down about a quarter mile down this

490
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:04.639
path and there's a clearing. When
they get to the clearing, they see

491
00:46:04.679 --> 00:46:12.199
the Bronco and its lights are on
and David Till is on his knees being

492
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:17.280
hit with a baseball bat. Oh
no, he's trying to stand. He's

493
00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:27.440
urinated himself and he's crying, please
someone help, please stop. At the

494
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:35.039
same time, you have Brian being
held by some men. The next thing

495
00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:43.199
Barb sees is Coco swing a bat
to David's head, and she described it

496
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:51.079
as exploding or disappearing. Oh no, oh, that's brutal. And the

497
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:57.000
Devale brothers told many people that they
hit a man on the head and his

498
00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:01.800
head split like a water moon.
I'm sorry, this is really gruesome and

499
00:47:01.840 --> 00:47:07.519
it's very upsetting. All this time, Brian is, Oh, he's watching

500
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:12.960
his friends best friend, childhood best
friend. They've known each other forever,

501
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:19.400
fourth grade. Brian manages to escape. He does, but the Ball Brothers

502
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:23.199
caught up with him, dragged him
back. They beat him. They beat

503
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:30.719
him even when he wasn't moving anymore. Barb and Ronnie take off down the

504
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:35.119
path and they go back to Barb's
house. About five minutes later, there's

505
00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:38.920
a knock on their door. Oh, it was the Ball brothers and they

506
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:43.679
said, quote, we know,
we know you, we know where you

507
00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:50.079
live. And pigs got to eat
too. That is terrifying, terrifying.

508
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:57.039
Is this fucking horrible? Yeah,
this is so. The Attorney General's office

509
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:01.039
in two thousand and two had taken
on this case and I worked there at

510
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:08.920
the time. It was a huge
breakthrough and they decided to go ahead and

511
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:16.239
prosecute. Even though they had nobody, no DNA, never found the Bronco,

512
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:22.800
they still went ahead and did it. It just had circumstantial evidence right

513
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:31.719
based on mostly yeah testy, basically
good Barb. Donna Panograss was the one

514
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:37.760
that actually prosecuted it, and she's
an amazing She was an amazing assistant in

515
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:44.079
Attorney General. It took the jury
only thirty minutes to find them guilty and

516
00:48:44.199 --> 00:48:52.880
sentence them to life. So what
Donna Penograss believes happened is after the murder,

517
00:48:52.280 --> 00:48:58.440
the men were put in the bronco
and then they were put through a

518
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:06.559
wood chipper, Oh my god,
and then they were fed to the pigs.

519
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:12.480
And you know, I did tell
you that the brothers are really good

520
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:19.960
at taking apart cars and had scrap
bats, right scrapyards. That makes sense

521
00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:29.000
that it that the bronco disappeared.
And so that is the sad story of

522
00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:38.119
David Till and Brian ogin Ougen.
That is terrible. A wood chipper.

523
00:49:38.519 --> 00:49:44.800
Oh, you know, we do
these stories. I mean we're an episode

524
00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:49.519
like two hundred and one billion,
yeah something, and we have just almost

525
00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:55.079
just as money in our Patreon And
I'm not like, I'm still amazed and

526
00:49:55.199 --> 00:50:05.079
shocked and horrified. I just or
what for flirting? M A little obnoxious

527
00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:12.280
flirting maybe, I mean. The
prosecutors believe that the Duval brothers were very

528
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:19.639
aggressive at first with David and Brian, but then lured them out with marijuana.

529
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:23.079
Okay, because David and Brian had
been asking people if you know where

530
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:30.119
any marijuana is, and then the
Daval brothers were heard trying to get some

531
00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:36.239
marijuana. So they believe that they
probably faked being nice and lured them smoke

532
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:39.599
weed and that's how they got them
there. I see that. That makes

533
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:45.760
a lot of sense. It's a
really sad case. They're still alive and

534
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:51.880
in prison, and a lot of
the Deval family is in prison and even

535
00:50:52.920 --> 00:50:58.239
for other crimes, for other crimes, and even one of the females was

536
00:50:58.519 --> 00:51:06.920
in is imprisoned for murder. Oh
wow, crazy. The story is just

537
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:12.079
awful. I'm glad it was solved. I mean for the family, right,

538
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:16.039
Like, yeah, I'm sure my
heart goes out to the families because

539
00:51:16.039 --> 00:51:22.119
this is just a horrible yeah story
and have your loved ones die that way

540
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:28.280
for nothing but to just be with
a rumman. And these men got away

541
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:31.679
with telling everybody. Hey, you're
telling everybody for eighteen years and people to

542
00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:37.360
the pigs. Yeah, well that
was horrible. Thanks to Leah. I

543
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:43.280
want to thank everybody for taking the
time to listen to us, listen to

544
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:47.360
the story. If you haven't done
so already, please hit the subscribes follow

545
00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:52.760
like Latin. You can go to
our website Crimes and Consequences dot com.

546
00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:59.239
We have merchandise there. You can
join us and Patreon at Patreon dot com.

547
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.679
Slash t and T Crimes or on
Apple podcasts and become members where we

548
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:12.719
release episodes that aren't on True Crime
Daily and they're ad free and what else.

549
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:16.679
That's it. I think that's it. So I think you covered most

550
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:22.519
everything, and I'm sorry for the
family. Yeah, my heart goes out

551
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:35.519
to them. So until our next
episode, don't kill each other. Bye bye,