WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.360 Thank you all for joining me on a special episode of The Rojas Report slash 2 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:13.240 Open Mind UFO Radio. We are fortunate enough to have doctor Avi Lobe, 3 00:00:13.400 --> 00:00:21.199 somebody who's been in the news quite a bit regarding extraterrestrial intelligent civilizations and the 4 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:30.359 possibility that perhaps and a recent interstellar visitor might have been et technology. So 5 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:34.200 he's created a stir, he's been in the media a lot. Thank you 6 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:38.840 for joining me, and I hope you enjoyed this interview with doctor Avi Lobe. 7 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:43.159 Okay, so it's live. Yes, we are live, and hello. 8 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:47.240 Thank you very much for joining me, doctor Lobe. This is a 9 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:50.280 great pleasure to be able to talk to you. Thank you for having me. 10 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:55.439 So I got your book from your publicists very early on, and I 11 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.159 was so excited because I thought great, and they were like, read the 12 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:03.039 book, we'll try to set up an interview soon. So I was rushing 13 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:06.000 through to make sure I could finish it before I got to talk to you. 14 00:01:06.359 --> 00:01:08.280 And time went on and I thought I was going to be able to 15 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.519 get my interview at the beginning of your interview cycle. It's ended up being 16 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:15.840 at the end. But that's kind of neat though, because I'm I'm interested 17 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:22.239 in how this kind of media frenzy has maybe changed your perspective and views as 18 00:01:22.319 --> 00:01:26.680 well. But first let me do a little introduction. This is, of 19 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.560 course many of you recognize or are aware because I've been talking about doctor Avi 20 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:37.719 Loobe's book for quite some time. But a astrophysicist from Harvard, and I 21 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:41.799 do want to mention some of your other affiliations, such as a fellow at 22 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:47.239 the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the American Physical Society, the International 23 00:01:47.319 --> 00:01:52.400 Academy of Astronautics. You know, you have been a chair for the Physics 24 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:57.040 and Astronomy for a national academy. And the reason I want to mention all 25 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:02.239 that is that you're not like some fringe guy coming out of nowhere. You 26 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:09.240 are truly embedded and kind of a thought leader in the community. So it 27 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:15.960 had to have been pretty risky doing this. I mean, were you was 28 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:22.560 there hesitancy on your part to say that you were feeling really confident about this 29 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:28.919 controversial theory or were you really you know, motivated where you're like, no, 30 00:02:29.080 --> 00:02:31.879 this is what the data is showing me. And did you have any 31 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:37.599 you know, trouble going there? Not at all. I applied the same 32 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:42.840 approach that they did to previous anomalies that I saw in other areas that I 33 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:49.039 studied for many decades. I worked on the early universe, the first stars, 34 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.960 and on black holes. And you know, there are anomalies in various 35 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:54.479 context. For example, we don't know what most of the matter in the 36 00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:00.479 universe is. It's called dark matter. And there wasn't anomally reported about the 37 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:05.159 hydrogen being very cold, much colder than we expect in the early universe. 38 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:07.960 And a suggestion that I made in a paper that was published in a prestigious 39 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:14.719 journal was perhaps the dark metal particles have a small charge electric charge, so 40 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:20.199 they cooled the ordinary metal, the hydrogen, And that was rather speculative, 41 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:23.560 but there wasn't much a pushback on that, because you know, it's part 42 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.879 of the scientific process. When you see something unusual, something that doesn't quite 43 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:30.759 line up with what you expect, then you have to put possibilities on the 44 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:38.319 table. And then of course that would motivate observers or experimentalists to try and 45 00:03:38.439 --> 00:03:43.360 search for more clues, more evidence, and rule out the possibilities that do 46 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:46.360 not stand up to the scrutiny. And that is the scientific process. You 47 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:51.080 know, there is nothing unusual about it, and that's the way we discovered 48 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:55.800 new things in the past. You know, nobody a century ago expected quantum 49 00:03:55.800 --> 00:04:00.520 mechanics to be a description of reality. It was for experiments, and then 50 00:04:00.719 --> 00:04:05.080 the theorists try to figure out what the interpretation of the experiments is. And 51 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:10.360 it put a lot of people out of their comfort zone, including Albert Einstein, 52 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:15.040 who argued that quantum mechanics shouldn't have a spooky action at the distance. 53 00:04:15.079 --> 00:04:20.519 But he was wrong. And so the process of the scientific learning about nature 54 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:27.240 is involves, you know, unusual evidence that you try to explain, and 55 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.199 you put possibilities on the table, and then you rule out by additional evidence 56 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:34.319 those that do not stand up to the new evidence that you find, and 57 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:40.519 that's the centers. There is nothing wrong about it. There is nothing problematic 58 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:46.240 about it, except when people have prejudice. So when Galileo suggested maybe the 59 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.839 Earth moves around the Sun, the philosophers at the time argued, no, 60 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:57.480 we know that the Sun moves around the Earth, and they refuse to look 61 00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:01.399 for his telescope. Now that's a DVA from the scientific process. And Galileo 62 00:05:01.600 --> 00:05:09.079 was one of the fathers of the current scientific process, and you know, 63 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:13.800 we're talking about evidence and not about speculations that come out of the blue. 64 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:20.279 So when this object that we will talk about had some unusual properties that do 65 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:25.079 not line up with what we expected, that's when I came about, you 66 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.199 know, and suggested maybe it's a artificial origin because of the evidence, because 67 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:33.639 of the clues. And I didn't I didn't have any concerns about it because 68 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:38.800 you know, it's just the same approachect I used for many years before. 69 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.920 And the fact that there was a lot of pushback has to do with my 70 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:48.720 colleagues more than with me. I didn't change much. Yeah, and you 71 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:57.560 know, definitely some of the criticism of your theory has left kind of the 72 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:03.199 realm of scientists as well, and it's gotten pretty personal. Even some very 73 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:09.120 well known you know, writers, science writers have gotten you know, they're 74 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:15.040 very away from the scientific argument, but gotten very personal. Are you surprised 75 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:18.800 by that or were you expected? I'm disappointed by that, because you know, 76 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:24.040 we should all be focusing on the ball rather than the audience. Okay, 77 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:29.040 we should be focusing on the evidence. And I highly respect those scientists 78 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.439 that the road scientific papers trying to explain the anomalies of more and on this 79 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:38.800 object in terms of a natural origin, and they came up with specific suggestions 80 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:43.839 that they analyzed th equations and you know, suggested putting something else, another 81 00:06:43.879 --> 00:06:46.399 alternative on the table. Now, all of these possibilities, that are three 82 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:55.079 of them have major flows. Okay, so I wrote a rebuttal paper about 83 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:58.839 one of them that explains why it doesn't work, for example, And you 84 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:02.000 know that's that's again out of the scientific process. But what is not part 85 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:08.079 of the scientific process is going on Twitter attacking personally, you know, and 86 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:14.040 that is not relevant because you know, first of all, if you think 87 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:17.600 about the big picture, you know, nature doesn't care about whether we say 88 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:21.160 one thing or another. Nature is whatever it is, and we are all 89 00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:25.759 supposed to try and figure out what it is. And all I was saying 90 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:30.879 is, perhaps there is a relic of a technological equipment that passed near Earth. 91 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.399 And the way to find out is, of course, next time we 92 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.079 see something like that, you know, and we should see within a few 93 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:41.160 years another one or many more. Next time we see we should take a 94 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:45.360 photograph. What's the big deal? You know, like there is nothing more 95 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:49.360 common sensical than that trying to get more evidence next time around, and instead 96 00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:55.399 you get people extremely upset that this possibility was even mentioned, contemplated, or 97 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:59.720 suggested in a scientific paper. By the way, I didn't just make up 98 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:03.560 the suggestion in the blue, you know, like, or write a blog 99 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:07.000 about it or put it in a book. There was that. There are 100 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.439 many papers that I wrote about that can all be found on my website, 101 00:08:11.720 --> 00:08:16.639 and these are scientific papers. So I don't see why people should complain that 102 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:24.199 the scientific discourse includes in it the possibility of interpreting anomali is of an object 103 00:08:24.399 --> 00:08:28.120 in terms of technological artifact. Why is that offensive to so many people. 104 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:33.279 The only way I can understand that is either that there are you know, 105 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.559 not willing to discuss this possibility because they want to preserve their image, and 106 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:45.240 they put themselves on a pedestal relative to the public that is interested in others, 107 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:50.320 you know, like unidentified flying objects. But again this is irrelevant because 108 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.399 you know, if you go to ancient history, there was a popular view 109 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.600 that the human body has a soul and therefore anatomy should be forbidden. But 110 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.120 imagine if science would say, oh, this is a controversial subject. There 111 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:07.240 are lots of claims out there about the human body. We don't want to 112 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.519 dissect it at all. Where would modern medicine be. You know, that's 113 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:16.240 inappropriate for science to ignore a subject just because there is some controversy about it. 114 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.279 We should apply the best scientific tools we have. We should be And 115 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.960 by the way, a billion dollars was invested before we detected gravitational waves, 116 00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.080 a bill one point one billion dollars by the National Science Foundation. Without that 117 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.399 investment, we would never discover gravitational waves, and the Nobel Price in physics 118 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:39.360 was avoided for that. And moreover, gravitation waves have zero influence on our 119 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:43.799 daily lives. Okay that you know they passed through our body, nothing happens. 120 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.879 So I'm asking why is the funding in the context of the search for 121 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:54.720 technological signatures relics? You know, more than a thousand times smaller than that. 122 00:09:56.600 --> 00:10:00.679 If the problem is so important to the public, and the public fund 123 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.240 science, wouldn't you think that there should be at least a billion dollars invested 124 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.320 in the search for technological rights rather than people ridiculing me and attacking me personally. 125 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.480 How wrong? More wrong than that could it be? You know, 126 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.840 funding it in an extremely low level and then anyone that brings this possibility to 127 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:24.120 the table is immediately attacked personal you know, like what are we are we 128 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.440 in the dark ages here? I thought it was really interesting when the report 129 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:35.200 on Tabby's Star came out because they had gone there. They had suggested in 130 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.840 their scientific paper that one possibility could be something like the Dyson sphere, and 131 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.919 I was shocked that it was fairly well accepted. However, you know, 132 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:52.279 when there was a couple of years ago at a SETI conference, there was 133 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.159 one of the scientists who did a lecture on techno signatures and kind of around 134 00:10:56.159 --> 00:11:01.919 the xeno archaeology or exoarchaeology, some of the different terms being used for that, 135 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:07.399 and he got a lot of media attention. It wasn't accurate, and 136 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.120 he really shied away from it. He was really terrified by the feedback because 137 00:11:11.639 --> 00:11:18.279 unfortunately they were misrepresenting the strength. That is a very important insight that you 138 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:22.600 just brought up, because I think the public is starved by the science community 139 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:26.559 on this subject. The public cares about it a lot. And you know 140 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:30.879 the success of my book, it became a best seller shortly after it appeared 141 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:35.480 in many countries. The success is a result of the public being starved on 142 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:41.320 this subject by the scientific community, and I think it's completely inappropriate because you 143 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:46.320 know, it's not as if the scientific community is supposed to censor the public's 144 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:48.879 interest. Instead, it should respond to the public interest. And if we 145 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:54.840 have the instrumentation, you know, the telescopes to search for technological relics, 146 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:58.720 we should use them for that purpose, because we're supposed to echo the public's 147 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:05.279 interest rather than worry about you know, how many angels can sit on the 148 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.799 tip of a pin. You know, like all kinds of questions that show 149 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:13.080 that we are smart, but do not necessarily echo an interest from the public. 150 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.960 You know, there are many such questions, you know, working and 151 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.759 on the mathematics of antide sitter space, you know, what effect does it 152 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:26.240 have on people's lives? Or arguing that the dark matter is an axiom, 153 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.879 you know, which is a mainstream discussion in the scientific community. Again, 154 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:35.360 what the dark matter has zero impact on our daily lives? You know, 155 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:37.840 there are lots of such questions, and the scientific community, the mainstream is 156 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.559 occupied just with those questions. And when you deal with a question that the 157 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:46.519 public is extremely curious about, no, we should shy away from that. 158 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:48.679 We should shy away from the limelight. It's as if you go to the 159 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:54.000 darkness so the public cannot see what you're doing. I don't understand that if 160 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.480 the public cares about it, you know, I don't feel the time on 161 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:01.279 a pedestal relative to I don't think that sign is an occupation of the elite. 162 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:05.279 It's a way of life. You know. Every person should be able 163 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:09.440 to understand what the scientists are doing, and in fact, the scientists should 164 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:15.279 do things that people care about. Okay, obviously, you know, climate 165 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.440 change is something that the people care about. Pandemics is something people care about. 166 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.360 That's you know, that is part of mainstream. But for some reason, 167 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:28.120 the search for extraterreaction, the question are we alone? The question is 168 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:33.080 there anyone else in our neighborhood that is being pushed to the fringes of science? 169 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.960 And why would that be the case? And this is basically the message 170 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.440 of my book. This is the reason I appeared on three hundred interviews over 171 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:45.559 the past eight weeks. You know, that's quite remarkable. I'm trying to 172 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:48.440 use it as a platform, you know, and my publicist, the publicist 173 00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:52.960 of my book in the UK, was telling me, great job, you 174 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.320 are making your communicating very well with the public, and the book is selling 175 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:03.039 quite well. I told him, look, I'm not trying to sell the 176 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.399 book. You have to understand that I'm trying to convey a message. And 177 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.240 if the public didn't like my message and wouldn't buy the book, I wouldn't 178 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:13.679 care less. I would not change my message just so that the book will 179 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.960 sell. The book and my appearances are trying to convey a message, and 180 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:20.480 the fact that the public likes it is a good thing. But it's a 181 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:26.399 byproduct, you know. And I think you bring up something really important, 182 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:31.559 especially for now because as a science writer, I fortunately get it to some 183 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:37.000 science writing and the scientific community, especially a lot of the Astrontes I've spoken 184 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:43.360 with and other NASA personnel are extremely concerned with this anti science kind of movement 185 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:48.559 that we've had. And you mentioned that the public is very interested and well 186 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.000 the topic you wrote about, but also the pandemic and climate change. But 187 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:58.639 that's an area where there's a large anti science kind of group out there fighting 188 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:03.039 against it. Scientists don't seem to, but they blame the journalists a lot 189 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.320 of times, you guys are just sensationalizing our work. But on our end. 190 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:11.519 I've tried to. I was even in a group with these Nobel scientists 191 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:16.559 talking about the same topic and they were self frustrated. It's like, well, 192 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.679 what we're trying to do is make what you do appealing, trying to 193 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.399 apply it to people's lives, and I think, you know, unfortunately there 194 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.919 is no pr for science, and maybe there needs to be, because I 195 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.120 think that's where we've got to break down. Yeah, So currently science is 196 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:35.399 mostly communicated to the public by people that do not practice science, you see, 197 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:41.240 that's it, and I find that unfortunate because many of my colleagues, 198 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.480 you know, avoid the limelight, and as a result, the way that 199 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.159 the sausages are made is not communicated. You know, most of the time 200 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:56.200 science is uncertain because we don't have enough evidence, and scientists prefer the public 201 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.159 not to know about it. They want to show the public only the final 202 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:03.159 product, the sausage, without telling them how it's made. And you know, 203 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:07.720 the reality of the matter is, most of the time we are uncertain. 204 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.279 There are multiple interpretations for the data. We don't know which one is 205 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.720 the correct one. And only when we have enough evidence we are in agreement 206 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:19.639 and we come out with a consensus view, and that is you know, 207 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.759 that is something the public should know. The public should see the stages. 208 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:26.639 You know, there are early stages where you don't know what you're talking about, 209 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.840 and the public should be aware of that because scientists don't always know what 210 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.799 they're talking So I feel as if, you know, I'm the kid that 211 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:38.320 says the emperor has no clues in a way, but you know, I'm 212 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.559 the kid that says that, and that's the truth. You know that science 213 00:16:42.679 --> 00:16:47.440 is working progress, and I think the public should be engaged. And by 214 00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.120 the way, I told my publisher that I will be happy, satisfied if 215 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:56.840 there is one person around the globe that, after reading my book, will 216 00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:02.080 become a scientist. And a couple of weeks ago, I got an email 217 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:07.680 from Malawi in Africa from a woman that said that your book is great and 218 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.039 I'm thinking about becoming an astronomer. So I told her the story about the 219 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.000 publisher that changed ahead and asked her are you the one? Are you that 220 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:21.960 one assigned it? And she said maybe either me or my daughter. I 221 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.640 would not be surprised, but that's what I wanted to say. I'm sure 222 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.720 your book has inspired quite a few people. But I guess let's get into 223 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:33.720 kind of a little bit of the meat of the situation. A muamu an 224 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:40.000 object the first we detected that is interstellar to come into our solar system and 225 00:17:40.039 --> 00:17:42.720 then exit, and of course we saw we didn't catch glimpse of it till 226 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:48.480 it was on its way out, and you know, it had some strange 227 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.599 properties. You said it could be three things. Two of those the conventional 228 00:17:52.920 --> 00:18:00.240 you know, the assumption, a comment or an asteroid, and but you've 229 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:04.440 made the argument that those don't fit. A comment. It's obvious comment looks 230 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:10.440 like a comment. You know, it's got a halo of debris. So 231 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:15.839 the other possibility could be asteroids because they do tumble. But this was definitely 232 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.079 very different than an asteroid. And like you mentioned, it deviated. And 233 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:23.160 I think that's the big theme that you mentioned, and I agree with you 234 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:29.759 that I haven't seen any scientists really tackling your argument for the deviation and how 235 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:33.279 that might have happened in a manner that addresses all of the things that you've 236 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:41.079 brought up. But I guess analyzing that so, for instance, one possibility 237 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:47.839 for the movement that you have highlighted was outgassing, so maybe a pocket of 238 00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:52.160 ice or something that dissolved and pushed the object. But as you noted, 239 00:18:53.440 --> 00:19:02.400 the tumble didn't change after this deviation, which is it seems like any outgassing 240 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:07.119 it would be impossible for the tumble night to change, right. Well, 241 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:14.039 that's one thing, but also the force that was pushing it changed smoothly inversely 242 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:19.079 with unsqualled and usually what happens without gassing. If you have water ice on 243 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.799 the surface, there is a certain distance from the sun where the ice doesn't 244 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.079 really evaporate anymore and you get a cutoff in the push. And in fact, 245 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.920 on more and more reached that distance and no cutoff was observed. So 246 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.759 it was a smooth dependence inversely with distance square, just like you expect by 247 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:42.400 reflection of sunlight giving the push. I should say there was one suggestion that 248 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:48.440 perhaps it's made of pure hydrogen. This object is a hydrogen iceberg. That 249 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:53.359 was one of the models proposed by astronomers that I value because they try to 250 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:57.599 come up with an explanation. And if it's made purely of hydrogen, then 251 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.720 hydrogen is transparent. You could have a cometary tale without seeing it. The 252 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:07.559 only problem with this idea we're talking about an object raphic the size of a 253 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.799 football field a few hundred feet and such an object made of pure hydrogen would 254 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:18.559 get evaporated very quickly by absorbing starlite along its journey, and it wouldn't survive 255 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.880 that the trip from its origin. We've never seen hydrogen ized bergs, So 256 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:27.119 that's an example of a scientific idea that was put forward rather than attacking me 257 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:33.440 personally, just coming up with an alternative explanation of this anomaly. But we 258 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.920 wrote a scientific paper showing that it doesn't work because the hydrogenized bag would get 259 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.559 evaporated. There was another suggestion more recently, maybe it's not hydrogen, maybe 260 00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:47.880 it's nitrogen, pure nitrogen. For that, you need to separate nitrogen from 261 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.680 carbon. I mean, usually nitrogen and carbon come together that are produced by 262 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.599 the same process in stars, in stellar interiors and the space of space. 263 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:02.519 Telescope put very tight limits on any carbon based molecules around this object. So 264 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:08.279 really this doesn't hold together, you know, this interpretation. There was another 265 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:14.319 suggestion, maybe it is a cloud of dust particles that are very loosely bound, 266 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:17.960 you know, sort of like a dust bunny that you find at home, 267 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:22.039 and then it's very light to eight, So the reflection of sunlight would 268 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.839 give it the push that you need. The problem with that is when UMM 269 00:21:26.039 --> 00:21:30.759 got close to the sun, it was heated by hundreds of degrees and such 270 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:36.559 a fluffy dust cloud that is one hundred times less dense than air that's what 271 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:41.160 you need, would not have the material strength to hold together, to have 272 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:48.640 the integrity of maintaining a rigid structure. And so you know, these alternatives, 273 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.839 and there was another one that it's a piece of another bigger object that 274 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:57.039 was ripped apart as it was passing close to a star. And the problem 275 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:03.039 with that is usually you get elongated the pieces from the tidal force of a 276 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:08.319 star. And the best model for was pancake shape the ninety percent confidence. 277 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:15.079 So all of these alternative interpretations had major flows. And that led me to 278 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:19.680 conclude in my book that you know, the possibility of an artificial origin should 279 00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:22.920 be put on the table. What's the problem with that, you know, 280 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.039 and we should. What it implies is that even though more and Moire left 281 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:30.079 and we didn't get enough data on it, you know, it's now a 282 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:34.440 million times fainted than it was, There would be more like it that we 283 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.799 will find because you know, we just observed the sky for a few years 284 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.880 and we found this one. So if you observe for another few years, 285 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.799 we'll find another one. When I go to the kitchen and I find an 286 00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.920 aunt, I get alarmed because there must be many more out there. And 287 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.440 so all we need to do is next time around, when we detect something 288 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.240 in advance, you know, we should send the spacecraft with the camera that 289 00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:00.920 would intercept its trajectory and take the close up photo. And you know, 290 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.480 a picture is worth a thousand words. In my case, a picture is 291 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:11.319 worth sixty six thousand words, the number of words in my book. I 292 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:15.319 think that's a really important point. And when I've talked to people, a 293 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.880 lot of them have a miscon perception, and I'll bring up this picture. 294 00:23:19.240 --> 00:23:23.039 A lot of them have seen this image and this is an image from Nazi's 295 00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.640 website and uma, and they're like, well, I thought it was a 296 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.559 rock. It looks like a rock, And I explain that, you know, 297 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:33.680 like you you talked about it could have been a photo. Is important 298 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:41.559 because it could have been obvious from observation that it was if it was something 299 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:48.200 manufactured. Well, let me explain. So this this artist's illustration came about 300 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:53.039 because you know, as the object was stumbling, the brightness of the object 301 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:56.440 changed by a factor of ten. So projected on the sky, it was 302 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.480 at least ten times longer than it is white. But you know this is 303 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:06.480 true also of a piece of paper tumbling in the wind. You knows as 304 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:11.240 you get it to tumble, you know, projected on the sky, would 305 00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:15.759 you could see it as if it looks like this elongated object, you know, 306 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.920 like something very elongated, but in reality it is a flat object. 307 00:24:19.000 --> 00:24:25.400 And that was the best fit to the variation in the light reflected from the 308 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:29.759 object at the ninety percent confidence. And this is a paper published in December 309 00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:34.880 twenty nineteen by Sergei Maschenko showing that the best fee to the light curve is 310 00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:41.279 that of a flat object. So pancake shape, not a cigar shape, 311 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.279 but projected on the sky, of course, when it's tumbling, you know, 312 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:49.319 it looks very long compared to how wide it is. So that is 313 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.720 what we know about this object, that the ninety percent confidence it was flat, 314 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:56.880 not cigar shaped. And then the question is, you know, can 315 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:02.519 you imagine a flat rock that is at least ten times longer than it is 316 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:07.279 wide? And you know that is pushed by reflecting sunlight. Now, in 317 00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:11.079 September twenty twenty, just you know, less than half a year ago, 318 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:17.359 there was another object discovered that is pushed by reflection of sunlight and doesn't show 319 00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:21.279 any commentary tail. And this object was also discovered by pun Stars, the 320 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.640 same telescope that discovered of MUAA. And then the astronomers that found it realized 321 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:30.079 that if you go back in time, it was actually launched from Earth in 322 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:36.559 nineteen sixty six. It's a rocket booster that was part of the Lunar Landers 323 00:25:36.559 --> 00:25:41.759 severyor two mission. And we know that we produced it artificially. I mean 324 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:45.839 it had thin walls and was hollow, and that's why sunlight reflecting off it 325 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.400 gave it a push in the case of a mum. We don't know who 326 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:55.960 produced it. And I do want to mention two and thank you for that. 327 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.720 I think that that clears apple lot. I think for people that it 328 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:03.319 was cycly flat, so it could have been shaped just like that object or 329 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.240 similar to the object. If you demonstrate, we just don't know, and 330 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:10.480 with a photograph we would have known exactly. And a photograph has offers the 331 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:14.119 advantage First of all, you can tell if it's natural or not, you 332 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.359 know, from the way it looks, the structure. But second you can 333 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:22.039 decide at that point whether it's worth, you know, landing on such an 334 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.480 object, because if it's a piece of equipment, you know, that may 335 00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:29.519 be more advanced than anything we developed because we had our technologies only for one 336 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:32.960 hundred years. You know, we can decide to land on something like that 337 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:40.200 and imagine, you know, getting our hands around an advanced technology that is 338 00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:44.119 that represents something that we might develop in our future, you know, like 339 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:48.720 a millionaires from now. We can shortcut history and get a glimpse at something 340 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:52.440 that we will potentially develop in a millionaeres. You know, that could be 341 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:59.039 amazing. And I talk about it in my book that there is this omo 342 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.279 Amua's wage, which basically says, you know, if it is a piece 343 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:08.200 of technology, the implications are so great that we just cannot ignore that possibility. 344 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.799 So not only that I should not be ridiculed on a personal level, 345 00:27:14.559 --> 00:27:21.920 but we should consider that possibility and invest funds in searching for more objects of 346 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:25.920 the same and looking at them closely, you know, so we should do 347 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:30.759 much more, not much less. And that is my point. And you 348 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.440 know, I just don't understand why people would avoid that. It's as if 349 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:41.440 they say, let's remain ignorant. You know, having done these three hundred 350 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:48.640 interviews, what has changed about your perception of the public, perception of your 351 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:53.799 work and your theory. Well, the public is extremely interested and excited. 352 00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:59.480 And I had a very intelligent dialogue with the public with people that have asked 353 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:03.079 questions, both people with scientific and technological expertise and people that do not have 354 00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:11.000 that, and and in both camps, I received very insightful questions and comments, 355 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.440 and that inspired me to write a number of Scientific American articles, some 356 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:21.240 of which already appeared and some are in the pipeline over the you know, 357 00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:26.119 over the past couple of months, I wrote maybe about six of them, 358 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:30.799 and some of them are not yet published, but all of them are listed 359 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:37.039 on my website. And the point is that, you know, it's inspiring 360 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:42.039 for me to speak with everyone, especially the public, because the public is 361 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:48.480 curious without a prejudice, and as part of the dialogue, I get new 362 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.680 ideas. And if you block your options, if you basically say I don't 363 00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:57.599 want to discuss it, and you really you bully anyone that discusses it. 364 00:28:57.720 --> 00:29:02.880 You know, I find that really surprising because it keeps you ignorant, just 365 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:06.960 like the philosopher's at the time of Galideo. And of course you know people 366 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:12.039 say, oh, we extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That's exactly what I'm 367 00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.240 saying. Let's get more evidence. But if you say you know in advance 368 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.839 that it's never aliens, then you will not get that evidence. My point 369 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:26.839 is, extraordinary conservatism leads to extraordinary ignorance. I love that saying that's a 370 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:32.279 great one, and that is novel. Certainly. I was going to say 371 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.000 one observation I had from reading your book. A couple of things, but 372 00:29:36.079 --> 00:29:40.400 one thing that I enjoyed about it there was a familiarity in some of it 373 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:45.079 in that, of course I do cover the UFO topic and the scientists in 374 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:49.759 the past. I do this lecture about how astronomers started modern UFO research. 375 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.960 They really did, including with this doctor Alan Heinik who had this television show 376 00:29:55.000 --> 00:30:00.559 which distorted his life, but that they made similar argument to the the astronomical 377 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:07.400 and scientific community that you know about being close minded, and not just what 378 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.240 you had just said about the ignorant that happened. And certainly it's interesting that 379 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:15.279 many of the books I'm talking about are decade old. Yours is brand new, 380 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:18.400 But you're still having to make this argument and still having to fight this 381 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:26.720 fight with the academia. Yeah, I find that really unfortunate because right now, 382 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.599 well, we know more facts about the universe. We know that roughly 383 00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.839 half of the sun like stars have a planet the size of the Earth, 384 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.400 roughly at the same separation. So you know, if you arrange for similar 385 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.480 circumstances, you might as well get similar outcomes. So not only that we 386 00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:45.960 are not at the center of the universe, as advocated by Aristotle, the 387 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:51.599 ancient Greek philosopher, but also our backyard is quite common the Earth's sun system, 388 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:56.000 and that to me is very encouraging news. You know. It teaches 389 00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.759 us once again modesty, that we shouldn't think that we are privileged and you 390 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:04.279 need special because conditions that we find around us are common, and why would 391 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:07.359 we believe that we are the only ones? Now, of course, there 392 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:14.160 may not be living civilizations with which we can communicate because they are short lived. 393 00:31:14.279 --> 00:31:18.519 That's that's possible. If they developed technologies, they also develop the means 394 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.839 for their own destruction. You know, we cannot have a phone conversation with 395 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.960 the Mayans. The Mane culture is not around anymore, but we can find 396 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:32.079 relics that they left behind in archaeological digs and the say in much the same 397 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:37.799 way, we can do space archaeology instead of going out and listening to radio 398 00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:41.119 signals as we have been doing for seven years. You know, there is 399 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.519 this Drake equation which is fundamental for this search, but there are lots of 400 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.240 coefficients there that are highly uncertain. And if those civilizations are short lived, 401 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.440 most of them are dead by now, and we can't have a conversation. 402 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:59.440 We can't get radio signals, and instead what gives us is a wake up 403 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:04.839 call. You know, there are interstellar objects visiting the Solar System, and 404 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:07.839 by looking at them, you know, it's just like looking at objects that 405 00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:13.079 arrived from the street into your backyard. You know they make they made the 406 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:15.119 trip. You don't need to make the trip. It takes a long time 407 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:20.359 to visit stars, but they already made that trip and they arrived at your 408 00:32:20.400 --> 00:32:24.200 doorstep. So the natural thing is to examine them, take photographs, and 409 00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:29.359 whenever you see a plastic bottle instead of a rock, you say, well, 410 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.160 that's interesting, let's check it out. But you can't say it's always 411 00:32:32.319 --> 00:32:37.519 rocks, because then you would resemble this caveman that says, you know, 412 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:39.480 when presented with a cell phone, says, oh, it's a shiny rock. 413 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.599 One of the people in the chat is asking that this object was probably 414 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:52.759 out there for tens of thousands of years, and so he thinks that the 415 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:57.000 Solar say, a hypothesis from an advanced civilization, seems kind of strange, 416 00:32:57.440 --> 00:33:00.559 But I think you're arguing it doesn't. Necessarily they had to have been sent 417 00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:05.599 directly to us. It could be space junk, right exactly. I mean, 418 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.920 we launched the Voyager, one, Voyager, two new Horizons and other 419 00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:13.200 probes out of the Solar System, and imagine what would be their fate in 420 00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:16.759 a billionaires or a few billionaires. You know, they wouldn't be functional anymore. 421 00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:22.319 And most stars formed billions of years before the Sun. And as a 422 00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:27.720 result, you know, they predated us, and they sent out equipment into 423 00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:30.519 space, and we shouldn't take Most of these equipment would be just like plastic 424 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:34.759 bottles on a beach. You know, they have their puncture, they have 425 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:39.559 hors, they're not functional anymore. Because they suffered a lot of damage during 426 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:45.079 their trajectory, during their lifetime, and that's what we should expect from most 427 00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:50.640 of the stuff we find in space, and therefore arguing that it was tumbling 428 00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:55.200 and therefore not in control. You know, that's quite expected, because I 429 00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:00.000 wouldn't expect it to be spying on us. By the way, I don't 430 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:04.519 that we are sufficiently interesting for anyone to spy on us. And of course, 431 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.199 you know, ten thousand years ago, we were even less interesting. 432 00:34:07.320 --> 00:34:12.280 So when the object started its journey into the solocity, it was more than 433 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.920 ten thousand years ago. But I believe that most of the objects we find 434 00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:21.079 will be billions of years old because they traveled throughout the galaxy and sort of 435 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.239 there is a population of them, sort of like the space debris that we 436 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.840 live around the Earth. You know, there is a lot of the brick 437 00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:30.559 going there, or like plastic bottles in the oceans. You know, they 438 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:36.400 keep accumulating over time, and we just don't know what is out there unless 439 00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:40.800 we search so without the prejudice, without always saying it must be a rock. 440 00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:46.239 It's never aliens. Let's just check what is more natural than looking for 441 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:52.320 evidence? You know, you got very personal in the book too, getting 442 00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:57.079 back into your childhood and how it's kind of always been an interest and inspiration 443 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:01.320 for you to look for potential life out there. That's right. I don't 444 00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:07.000 separate my science from my life. For me, science is a way of 445 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:12.480 life. And you know, when I have a problem with a pipe at 446 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.639 home and I try to figure it out with a plumber, you know, 447 00:35:15.679 --> 00:35:17.239 I approach it exactly as a scientist. You know, we look for the 448 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:21.880 clues and then try to figure out what's the problem and solve it. And 449 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:28.440 I don't see science any different than applying common sense and looking at being guided 450 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.920 by the evidence. Of course, it has some mathematical aspect to it that 451 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:37.960 makes it a little more sophisticated and daily activities, but you know, it's 452 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:43.679 not really essential if you understand what nature is doing. You know, you're 453 00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.360 trying to figure out how to explain the evidence based on the clues that we 454 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:51.519 have that we have, and that's the way I approach my life, you 455 00:35:51.559 --> 00:35:54.920 know, on a daily basis. So for me, you know, everything 456 00:35:54.920 --> 00:36:00.159 that I went through during my life is contributing to my scientific work. And 457 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:05.239 in particular when I was young, you know, I was very much connected 458 00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:08.679 to nature because I grew up on a farm, so I developed a special 459 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:14.840 connection to nature to more than two people, you know, more than to 460 00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:19.400 social interactions. And that's why nowadays I don't really care how many likes I 461 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:22.800 have on Twitter, and I joke every morning at five am in the company 462 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:27.719 of rabbits, ducks and birds, and I enjoy that and irrespectful whether it 463 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:30.639 snows or rains. You know, I take whatever nature gives me, and 464 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:36.079 that's my attitude also towards the scientific exploration. You know, whatever, if 465 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.280 nature gives us anomalist, we should be delighted about it because we can learn 466 00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:44.159 something new. You know. There was a seminar at Havad about a muamua, 467 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.639 and when I left the room with a colleague of mine, he said 468 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:52.159 that this object is so weird, I wish it never existed. And after 469 00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:55.519 world by this, because it should be exactly the opposite attitude. You're not 470 00:36:55.559 --> 00:37:00.039 supposed to always relax and assume that what you know is what you will find. 471 00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:04.599 In fact, when you see something unexpected, it should be thrilling. 472 00:37:04.679 --> 00:37:07.519 You know, it's exciting. Why should science be boring? By the way, 473 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:12.280 I never understood that and you know, if there is something new coming 474 00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:15.599 along that is you didn't expect, that is an opportunity to learn something new, 475 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:21.719 and it makes science worth doing. I don't care about science as a 476 00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:25.360 vehicle to promote our egos as a way to convince other people that we are 477 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:30.599 smart, or that we deserve an honor or an award or a label. 478 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:36.639 You know, that is completely irrelevant. What we need to care about is 479 00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:39.280 understanding nature, and by the way, that's also what the public cares about. 480 00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:43.960 So I think we are all in it together. You know, if 481 00:37:43.960 --> 00:37:47.719 we develop a vaccine to COVID nineteen, you know, it's to be shared 482 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:51.599 by all of us. And the way I see science. You know, 483 00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.920 in economics, there is this idea of a zero sum game where if someone 484 00:37:55.559 --> 00:38:00.840 gains a profit, then someone else loses. But I think of science as 485 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:06.679 an infinite sum game in the sense that if you produce some new knowledge, 486 00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.079 everyone benefits, so it can go to infinity. You know, the more 487 00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:15.320 you add, the better everyone is. So it's we are all in it 488 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.480 together. In the context of science, it involves collaborations, and it should 489 00:38:19.800 --> 00:38:22.360 it should feel as if we are fighting each other and saying no, you're 490 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:24.920 not allowed to say that, you're not allowed to say. Okay, well, 491 00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:29.920 if you have another interpretation for the NORMALI is, write a scientific paper, 492 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:34.159 don't write it on Twitter. Write a scientific paper that explains the normalies 493 00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.840 in terms of something natural, and we will be done with that. You 494 00:38:37.880 --> 00:38:43.400 know, why get personally, why ridicule, why get so emotional about it? 495 00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:46.039 It's it's you know, we're just trying to figure out what this unusual 496 00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:52.280 object is. Mm hm. So you must have been excited at such as 497 00:38:52.920 --> 00:38:57.119 I was, certainly and many interested in these sort of topics when you're a 498 00:38:57.159 --> 00:39:00.880 Mailner decided to start his breakthrough programs, and of course you got to be 499 00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:04.960 involved with that, and when great part of the book is how you had 500 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.920 this limited amount of time to come up with the StarShop project, something I 501 00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:14.880 had been really excited about and I'm excited to talk to you about updates on 502 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.800 that project. But essentially using these little solar sales, which is what you 503 00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:23.760 feel might have been, which is essentially just actually they even had it on 504 00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:30.719 Star Trek, but you know, this little sale that's being pushed by the 505 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.280 by photons, either by laser or by the sun or something like that, 506 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:38.280 a reflection of light. Yes, So this is a technology that can either 507 00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:45.280 use the sun, but then the speed that you can reach is not very 508 00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.320 high. By the way, in my book, I talk about the possibility 509 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:52.480 that it can use also the flash of light from an exploding star supernova. 510 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:57.599 If you park light sales in the vicinity of a massive star that is about 511 00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:02.480 to explode, then the flyush of light can push those light cells close to 512 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:07.639 the speed of light. And that's quite remarkable. It's just like those surfers 513 00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:13.280 that are waiting for a giant wave on the beaches of Hawaii and then they 514 00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:17.000 surf on it. So you can do that from a natural source of light 515 00:40:17.320 --> 00:40:21.400 and exploding star and reach close to the speed of light, and then you 516 00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.760 will just like dandeli on seats you know that are carried by the wind, 517 00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:30.320 these sails will be carried by the flash of light into the galaxy as a 518 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:36.519 whole. But this is what we proposed to your mill leern. That's the 519 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:44.159 project Starshot that I'm leading, is to use a laser beam in pushing a 520 00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:47.719 light sale roughly the size of a person that weighs only a gram or so, 521 00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.079 and within a few minutes with the laser beam of one hundred jigobat. 522 00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:57.719 It can reach a fifth of the speed of light over a distance that is 523 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:00.480 five times a distance to the Moon. And then if you send it in 524 00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:06.199 the direction of the nearest star, for example, proximas Entaweri, it could 525 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:10.400 get there within twenty years. So that's within our lifetime. If we were 526 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:16.079 to use a rocket technology of the type that NASA employed in all the missions 527 00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:21.400 until now, then it would take fifty thousand years to reach the nearest star. 528 00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:25.400 And obviously we're not that patient, because we should have sent it when 529 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:30.360 the first humans left Africa in order for it to reach proximas Inaweri right now. 530 00:41:30.840 --> 00:41:37.000 So obviously, you know, this technology allows us to learn more about 531 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:42.639 our environment faster, and hopefully you know, we're now working on developing the 532 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:49.079 or overcoming the challenges that it poses. And I would deny that my imagination 533 00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:54.039 is limited to what I'm experiencing, you know, So in a way that 534 00:41:54.239 --> 00:42:00.320 was preparation for me. Working on this project allowed me to imagine that perhaps 535 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:05.880 one is being pushed by somebody. Mm hmm. I like the surfing analogy, 536 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.679 and there's actually Saturday and just down the street from here, I mean 537 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:15.920 and to there's tons of surfers fighting for waves right now. But I think 538 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:21.599 that the solar sale question actually somebody asked the question and the chat chat. 539 00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:25.039 Would it be possible to create a solar sale to send to catch up to 540 00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:30.199 uh? Yeah, And principle, if we had the technology, that would 541 00:42:30.199 --> 00:42:37.679 be an ideal use of of of of a light sale uh for example, 542 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:44.280 pushed by a laser beam, a powerful laser beam. But unfortunately we don't 543 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:49.880 have it yet. But what we should do, I think is you know, 544 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:53.039 hav an advanced warning for future objects that belong to the same class. 545 00:42:53.079 --> 00:42:59.440 And there will be the very Rubin observatory that will become operational in less than 546 00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:05.599 three years, and it would be much more sensitive to objects of the size 547 00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:08.760 of when we're reflecting sunlight, and could alert us of such objects a year 548 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:13.960 in advance when they are still approaching us rather than moving away from us. 549 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:17.159 And if that's the case, if we have a year of a warning time, 550 00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:22.639 we could contemplate sending a mission that will intercept their trajectory. And if 551 00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:28.440 you come with a four inch camera, if you come within roughly a distance 552 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:34.440 comparable to the diameter of the Earth from such an object which is roughly the 553 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:38.519 size of a football field a few hundred feet, then you should be able 554 00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:42.599 to resolve it with that camera. You should be able to get an image 555 00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:47.480 with multiple pixels, and that should be our goal, because you know, 556 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:53.960 that is the kind of information that will conclusively demonstrate that it's not a natural 557 00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:59.039 object. If it is not a natural and there should be many out there, 558 00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:01.840 and we should just go in search, you know, for more, 559 00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:07.079 and every time we see an unusual one, we should examine it and get 560 00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:12.199 as much information about it as possible. So I'm really guided by evidence and 561 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.079 I want to get more evidence, more information. The only way we will 562 00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:20.039 not get that information is if people know the answer in advance, if they 563 00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:23.239 say it's always rocks and we don't want to discuss it only then we will 564 00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:29.079 remain ignorant about it. M hmm. I know that you've got to go, 565 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:30.960 so we've got to wrap up. So I guess I'll kind of get 566 00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:36.000 to a UFO question, just because I'm sure you've gotten a lot of these 567 00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:38.960 sort of questions. But my question is, you know, there's been a 568 00:44:38.960 --> 00:44:45.840 lot of news about the Pentagon actually spending some money looking into some of these 569 00:44:45.880 --> 00:44:52.199 incidents that have happened. There is a group I work with the scientific community 570 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:57.639 of UAP studies that has gotten scientists who have come out of the woodwork because 571 00:44:57.639 --> 00:45:00.880 of that and gotten interested in looking more into these kind of things. Do 572 00:45:00.960 --> 00:45:06.320 you think that is appropriate and do you think you know, there should be 573 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:09.599 these sort of organizations to look into not just like a moo a more but 574 00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:16.280 also some of these alleged you know, more closer encourageents to our airspace. 575 00:45:16.920 --> 00:45:23.679 Well, definitely, I think that rather than obsessed with Pentagon reports that were 576 00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:31.760 based on testimonial evidence and on equipment that was not optimized for the purpose of 577 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:37.199 finding unusual phenomena, and also equipment that is decades old, you know, 578 00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:43.559 and by now we have much better cameras, much better audio sen source And 579 00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:46.719 my approach to this is, rather than worry about what the document said, 580 00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:53.039 we should just for anyone that cares about this question, we should deploy state 581 00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:58.960 of the art instrumentation, including the best cameras we have right now and a 582 00:45:59.000 --> 00:46:02.119 lot of them, and the audio sensors in the same locations where the reports 583 00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:07.559 came from, and see if we detect anything unusual and you know, rather 584 00:46:07.639 --> 00:46:15.079 than rely on testimonial evidence because of you know this example that I often like 585 00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:22.320 to give about the biblical story of Abraham that heard the voice of God and 586 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:27.719 the voice of God told him to sacrifice his only son, Isaac. And 587 00:46:28.320 --> 00:46:32.320 if Abraham had a cell phone with a voice memo up, he could have 588 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:37.360 pressed the button and recorded the voice of God and we would all know if 589 00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:40.480 that story really happened. But instead, he didn't have a cell phone, 590 00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:45.880 so we have to decide whether to believe his testimony. And that's the analogy 591 00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:52.639 I make with reports that are based on people's impressions or people's people using equipment 592 00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:55.920 that was not optimized for the purpose. And I think rather than do that, 593 00:46:57.000 --> 00:47:00.840 we should actually use the best equipment we have and go to the same 594 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.280 locations. And you know, science is about to reproduce ability. You have 595 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:09.320 to get You have to be able to reproduce results, because otherwise you don't 596 00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:14.760 know whether to believe them, And by going to these locations where the reports 597 00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.000 came from and using the best instrumentation, we should be able to find out. 598 00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:22.519 And you know, why not just do that in a purely scientific method 599 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:25.960 way. I love your answer, and that's what I love about science. 600 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:30.039 It's proactive. We don't need to rely. We need to gather our own 601 00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:35.599 data to analyze. And it's similar to conversations with the scientists. It's it's 602 00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:39.760 more government documents aren't scientific data. We need to figure out how to go 603 00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:45.559 get that data. So I think that's definitely and you said the same thing. 604 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:49.440 How we have to deal with potential moods in the future, right, 605 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:51.880 And it should all be in the open, you see. There shouldn't be 606 00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:55.440 any concerns about conspiracy of the government hiding things. No, it should be 607 00:47:55.480 --> 00:47:59.719 all in the open because science is in the open, you know. And 608 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:05.360 the only issue here is funding to get the best instrumentation deployed in those locations. 609 00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:07.559 And what's the big deal, you know. I think it can be 610 00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:12.199 done if the right people are providing the funds and the right people are doing 611 00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:15.800 the experiment. So I'm all in favor of getting more evidence to guide us 612 00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:21.519 rather than arguing forever about whether something that someone said is correct or not. 613 00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:24.760 Well, I'm sorry I kept you over a couple of minutes. This has 614 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:30.920 been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for taking the 615 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.880 time to talk to us this morning. It was a great pleasure. Thank 616 00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:37.760 you, good luck with the book. Excellent book. I loved it. 617 00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:42.639 The cover is beautiful too, but excellent book. Thank you so much. 618 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:47.199 Thanks for having me all right, Thanks everybody for joining, and of course 619 00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.719 we will talk with you all later