1 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:19,800 Welcome to episode three of Get Out Alive, a podcast where me, your 2 00:00:19,839 --> 00:00:23,320 host Ashley, and my best pal Nick tell you an animal tech story every 3 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,760 Wednesday. But before we get into it, Nick, you have some Patreon 4 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,719 shoutouts to do. Damn rad I do cue the music. So our first 5 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,200 patron of the day l thank you. We're going to shout out our boy, 6 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,359 Sebastian Bizzara, the same one that was here last week. Appreciate you, 7 00:00:40,359 --> 00:00:43,119 Sebastian. We love you. SUPPI Sebastian, which was the written on 8 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:46,000 the paper. We will address him properly. Thank you. And we'd also 9 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:52,359 like to shout out a new patron, Jeremy Montoya. That is a great 10 00:00:52,439 --> 00:00:54,960 name. I would love to have a name like that. We appreciate you. 11 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,159 Don't know you personally, but we love you undyingly. Yeah, and 12 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,479 we will also give you our on dying love and affection. If you haven't 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,439 joined yet, you can join for as little as twenty five cents an episode, 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,159 which is like nothing, and the more people that join, the more 15 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,799 content we can bring you in, the better content that we can bring you. 16 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:12,680 So join us. It's a fun time and again we'll love you. 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,560 So today's a very special episode. Hell yea, it is so Nick. 18 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,040 You and I have been friends since high school. Yeah, and we have 19 00:01:22,159 --> 00:01:26,159 talked almost every day since high school. Yeah, basically, Yeah, if 20 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,640 you had to guess, what do you think my favorite animal is? Oh 21 00:01:29,719 --> 00:01:32,840 that's after a while dog. Oh yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, 22 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:34,799 okay, all right, I mean, yeah, I guess I have 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,959 an African wild dog tattooed on my body. But the animal that made me 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,239 want to become like a biologist was the gray wolf. They are amazing. 25 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,239 I was able to see it and when I went to Yellowstone, unbelievable experience. 26 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,120 Yeah, I'm finally going in September. It is going to be the 27 00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:52,959 trip of a lifetime. It's all I've ever wanted to see since I was 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,640 a child. So wolves are really what got me interested in being a wildlife 29 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:00,200 biologist. And it was so cool to talk to you our guest today and 30 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,719 hear about his experience, and it gave me a whole new respect for them. 31 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,080 So, Nick, who are we talking to today? We are talking 32 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,199 to Oliver Starr, a man who not only works with wolves on a daily 33 00:02:12,199 --> 00:02:15,680 basis, but was actually attacked by one and almost died. Almost died, 34 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:19,199 but yet a bad ass gro for helping out. Yeah. Once again whole 35 00:02:19,199 --> 00:02:22,560 new respect for wolf. So thanks for tuning in and we hope you enjoy 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:29,080 our interview with Oliver. I was studying wildlife biology at See You at the 37 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,840 time, and one of my professors is a guy by the name of Mark 38 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:38,800 Beckoff, who's a world famous carnivore expert specializing in coyotes and other carnivores. 39 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:45,520 And Colorado Parks and Wildlife reached out to him and said, Hey, we've 40 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,319 got this wolf that's been seized from this project that was trying to do an 41 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,879 introduction without the right permits, and we need a place to park h And 42 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:00,800 Mark said, I've got this crazy student. And they literally, Colorado Parks 43 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,680 and Wildlife literally met me in North Boulder Park there and Boulder with one of 44 00:03:04,719 --> 00:03:07,000 their green trucks with a metal box in the back, and I backed my 45 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,280 pickup up to theirs and they slid it across and said good luck kid. 46 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,680 Wow, And I got Jake. So you said that you have wolf dogs. 47 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,520 So did you have them as pets or were you the kind of person 48 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,680 where like people had them as pets they were too overwhelming for them and then 49 00:03:21,719 --> 00:03:25,280 they dumped them on you. So my very first wolf dog was an animal 50 00:03:25,319 --> 00:03:30,319 that had been running at large near my home in Boulder. I lived up 51 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,840 above Boulder in a place called Boulder Heights at about seventy five hundred feet above 52 00:03:35,919 --> 00:03:38,479 town. It's kind of a rural urban you know, there's roads there, 53 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:43,280 but you need four wheel drive in the winter. My mom would always panic. 54 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,319 She called me, what do you live on Cliffhanger Road? So, 55 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,120 yeah, I had some land up there, and she was roaming around up 56 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,319 there and AC got her and I had seen her, and I called AC 57 00:03:54,479 --> 00:03:57,639 and they said, well, we're not going to adopt her to any normal 58 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,879 person, but you're apparently not a normal person, so you can have her. 59 00:04:00,599 --> 00:04:04,039 And that was my first kind of a mid content well actually I had 60 00:04:03,759 --> 00:04:08,520 a very low content maladue wolfdog mixed before that. But I got her, 61 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:14,120 And so several of the animals that I started with animals that I rescued from 62 00:04:15,159 --> 00:04:21,839 either at large or humane And then after a Galfian on a story with Jake, 63 00:04:21,879 --> 00:04:26,920 and then I ended up with a pop out of Jake later that was 64 00:04:26,959 --> 00:04:28,879 a pure also a pure wolf. Well, I mean, it's a pretty 65 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:30,279 good place to start Wayne to tell us about the Sword of Jake, and 66 00:04:30,439 --> 00:04:34,319 you know how the whole day went. So I'd had Jake for some time 67 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,560 and I really made remarkable progress. In fact, it's because I made such 68 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,040 good progress that I made the mistake that I made. So by the time 69 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,399 the incident occurred, I could take Jake in the car, I could take 70 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,000 him on walks. You know, he was very social to me, and 71 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:55,319 he'd never indicated to me in any way that he was potentially dangerous. He 72 00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,079 was not neutered. I had him with a spade female high content wolf dog 73 00:05:00,199 --> 00:05:03,319 that I'd had from the day she was born. I owned her mother as 74 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,720 well, and so he was in a habitat just with her, and they 75 00:05:08,759 --> 00:05:11,560 were kind of a bonded pair, even though he couldn't breed her. And 76 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,319 on this particular day we were doing I had a girlfriend at the time named 77 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:18,439 Leah, who was a rodeo. She was a roper and grew up on 78 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,680 a farm and was also a pro mountain biker at the time, and so 79 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,279 we would hike way up into the mountains to do photo shoots. She was 80 00:05:26,319 --> 00:05:29,920 a good photographer and so we were like selling photos of the animals to magazines 81 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:31,920 or whatever. So we'd hiked up into the back country to do this photo 82 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:34,879 shoot, and we had been taking it was very cold. It was probably 83 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,920 between ten and twenty below. So we were wearing a ton of clothes, 84 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:42,920 I mean, and that's important because if I had not been wearing so many 85 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,279 layers, I would have been even more seriously hurt. So I was wearing 86 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:48,240 on the day, like a thermal shirt, a flannel shirt, a wool 87 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:54,920 sweater, and one of those car hard shirple line denim jackets, big heavy 88 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,279 leather gloves, just the normal stuff for being out in that kind of weather 89 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,560 all day. So we'd had this photo shoot, I'd had both animals off 90 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,920 leads. He was that socialized to me that I could let him off a 91 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,120 leash and get him back on one. And sun was starting to set, 92 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,199 and so we were going to get off the mountain. It was like a 93 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,560 probably a twenty minute hike down to a road where we were parked, and 94 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,639 I had Jake on his leash and Jessa, his bonded female, was darting 95 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,639 all around and having a real good time playing keep away, and I was 96 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,839 trying to get her and she would just run past and she thought it was 97 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,399 really funny, and I was getting frustrated because the sun was going down and 98 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,680 I was kind of afraid she was going to because she was being unruly run 99 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:36,439 down to this little mountain highway and get run over. I mean, it's 100 00:06:36,439 --> 00:06:40,040 not like there was a ton of traffic, but I'm just overly paranoid about 101 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:44,160 that stuff. And so when she raced by me this one particular time, 102 00:06:44,439 --> 00:06:46,639 I just pounced on her. I just grabbed her by the scruff to get 103 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:50,199 a hold of her, and she kind of squeaked. And because I'd been 104 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,160 so focused on her, I wasn't really paying attention to Jake, who I 105 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,600 had on a leash and I was holding I was holding his leash with my 106 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:00,600 left hand, and I grabbed Jessa with my right hand. And he had 107 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,639 become agitated and thought that I was attacking his bonded pair mate, and so 108 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:12,639 he attacked my arm that I had grabbed Jesso with. It was just a 109 00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:16,720 bone crunching attack. I mean, just he had decided at that point that 110 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:20,879 I was no longer his buddy. The animal clearly felt like he had crossed 111 00:07:20,879 --> 00:07:26,079 a bridge, and the attack was unrelenting, and so he grabbed a hold 112 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,720 of my right arm and immediately broke it. I mean, it just felt 113 00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:34,639 like my head exploded. It was so fast and so surprising, and the 114 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,279 way he grabbed it. Then he started to sort of you know, they'll 115 00:07:38,319 --> 00:07:42,079 shake something real hard to get a better purchase and also to inflict more damage. 116 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,720 And so he started shaking my arm and dragging me around by my arm, 117 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,439 and so I took my other arm and I reached kind of around his 118 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:53,199 head and stuck my fist with the glove on in his mouth. So my 119 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,920 arm was still in his mouth, and now my fist was in the front 120 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,040 of his mouth, and he just bit down harder, which broke all my 121 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,079 fingers my already broken arm. I mean, you just can't imagine that. 122 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:07,480 I mean, he had completely compressed my arm to the point where he could 123 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,439 break my fingers in the front of his mouth with my arm in the back 124 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:15,920 of his mouth. Wow. And I still kind of was retaining my grip 125 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,639 around his head, and I sort of wrestled him to the ground, and 126 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:22,879 so we were both rolling around on the ground and he was just continuing to 127 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:26,839 try to twist his head and get loose for me and biting on me. 128 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:31,639 And I know this sounds crazy, but it was this really interesting moment because 129 00:08:31,759 --> 00:08:35,639 my consciousness was in like three places at the same time. Like there was 130 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:39,440 part of me that was watching this from a third person perspective, like completely 131 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:43,679 out of my body, just like a drone surveying the scene. And then 132 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,080 there was a part of me that was fighting for my life. And then 133 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,000 there was this part of me that was like this cool scientist kind of talking 134 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:54,320 in the back of my head saying, Wow, he's really a lot stronger 135 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:58,159 than you expected. Had just sort of given me this narrative, and I 136 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,759 could hear Lis screaming, what do I do? What do I do? 137 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:07,039 I don't know who advised me, Which of the three split consciousness has advised 138 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,559 me to scream out grab his nuts? I don't even know where that came 139 00:09:11,639 --> 00:09:16,039 from because it's just such an atypical thing, but she did. She was 140 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:22,639 an amazingly quick, agile, brilliant athlete, and she grabbed his nuts really 141 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,639 hard and he let go of me, and I was able to like jump 142 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:31,639 backwards to my feet to get some distance. And I say this without reservation. 143 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:37,720 If it had been any other human being than Leah, who I used 144 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,720 to call Frankie because her nickname was a conjunction of feisty and cranky. If 145 00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:45,600 Frankie had not been there, I would have been dead because she had the 146 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,399 only instinct. The only kind of person that would have this instinct is a 147 00:09:48,519 --> 00:09:54,799 ranch hand. She grabbed his loose line, and that saved my life because 148 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:01,440 I jumped back. He jumped to his feet and immediate lunged from my face 149 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:07,559 and throat. And only because she had the leash, he came up short 150 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:11,799 and he got my left bicep again. Remember I'm wearing a ridiculous clothing, 151 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,159 and just the very front of his teeth tagged my bicep, kind of in 152 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:20,840 a glancing blow, but just that glancing blow severed my bicep. Wow. 153 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,799 She retained control of him, and luckily for us, he was only interested 154 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,840 in aggression towards me, not to her, so she was able to tie 155 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:33,960 him. You know, it's called a dally, like you wrap a line 156 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,840 around something really fast, and she dallied him up to a tree and you 157 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:41,120 know, started in with them. I need to get a gun. I'm 158 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,600 gonna shoot Jake. And I didn't even know how badly hurt I was at 159 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:48,080 the time, but I knew I was seriously hurt. Because of the temperature, 160 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,879 and now the distance to the road and the nature of my injuries, 161 00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:52,720 I didn't really have time to argue with her. So I just said, 162 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:56,679 no, you're not You're gonna get Jessa and give me ten minutes and you'll 163 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,360 either find me in the trail or in the truck at the bottom of the 164 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:03,480 trail. I didn't give her any time to argue with me. I just 165 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,840 started stumbling. You know, I had both my arms, kind of my 166 00:11:07,279 --> 00:11:11,000 really injured right arm. I was holding to my chest with my left arm, 167 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,279 my left forearm because my left hand had been destroyed, and I just 168 00:11:13,399 --> 00:11:18,000 stumbled down in the dark, and you know, I'd fall and I'd somehow 169 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:20,279 get back to my feet, and I was just kind of in this autonomous 170 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,720 mode of getting to the car. And I did, but then, of 171 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:28,159 course I was too injured to unlock the damn thing because I come with my 172 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:31,879 hands, and so then I had to wait, and she had to manage 173 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,200 two animals and get them in the back before I could get near the truck, 174 00:11:35,279 --> 00:11:39,000 because when he saw me, he started bristling again, so she loaded 175 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,279 him in the back. We had a camper shell. She led him in 176 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:43,200 the back of the truck and got me in the truck, and she wanted 177 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,480 to take me to the hospital, but I needed her to get the animals 178 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,600 out of the truck, and so we went back to our place and unloaded 179 00:11:48,639 --> 00:11:52,159 the animals. So by the time that I got to the emergency room, 180 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,879 I think it was probably an hour and a half to two hours something after 181 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,559 the actual injury, and you're just sitting there bleeding out in the The fascinating 182 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:07,120 thing was there was no blood. The injuries were all crush injuries. There 183 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,159 was a lot of internal bleeding, of course, but there was no I 184 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,879 mean there was, I say no, but very very minor, I mean 185 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,759 incredibly minor tears in the skin, mostly just from the friction of the clothing. 186 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,679 They cut everything off me at the hospital and they looked at my forearm 187 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:26,120 and they just said, where do you want us to amputate? Wow, 188 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:31,679 my forearm looked like a bag of blood. It was just so it was 189 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:33,679 like four times the size of a normal forearm, and it was just red 190 00:12:33,799 --> 00:12:37,519 from the inside because there had been so much damage to He had torn all 191 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,799 the muscle sheaths and severed the tendants, and they said we on an X 192 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:46,720 ray they could no longer tell where the ulna and the radius that the bones 193 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:50,360 had been so twisted around and shattered that they didn't know which pieces belong to 194 00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:54,120 which bone. Wow geez. They wanted to amputate my arm at the elbow. 195 00:12:54,919 --> 00:12:58,840 I wasn't really interested in them doing that. And because I'd been an 196 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:03,559 athlete. I was an athlete at the time, I knew if Steedman Hawkins 197 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,679 and veiled because that's where everybody went to get their knees fixed. And so 198 00:13:05,799 --> 00:13:09,600 I called Stedman Hawkins and they said, well, if you can get up 199 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:11,519 here by the morning, we'll take a look and see if there's anything we 200 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,919 can do for you. And I didn't even have insurance. I mean I 201 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,159 was two years old and uninsure, you know, just a typical young person. 202 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,440 So then I got up to Steedman Hawkins. I slept with my arm 203 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:24,679 packed in ice because they were they told me what to do, because they 204 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,159 were afraid that I get all kinds of compression damage from all the pressure and 205 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240 the bleeding and everything. So we got up there and I was waiting there 206 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:33,960 and they arrived in the morning and they they were when I told them what 207 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:37,919 happened. I didn't. I was afraid if I told the er and Boulder 208 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,320 what had occurred, that the animal would be seized or euthanized and involved. 209 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:46,600 Yeah, even with the severity of the injuries, I knew it was my 210 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:48,480 fault. I did not blame him at all. It was totally me. 211 00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:52,960 I made a mistake. I was over confident, and I wasn't going to 212 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:56,600 let him pay the price for my mistake. And so Boulder I told him 213 00:13:56,639 --> 00:14:00,840 I had an injury with a snow blower. They didn't believe me, but 214 00:14:00,919 --> 00:14:05,039 they weren't going to get anything else. And I told Stedman Hawkins, and 215 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,480 they were really you know, they'd never seen such injuries, and so they 216 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,919 were willing to do everything pro bono, which was a miracle because I'm sure 217 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:16,279 one hundred thousand dollars or more of work. And they said, well, 218 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,080 we can't promise you're going to keep your hand or your arm or you're going 219 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:22,000 to regain function, but we're going to give it our best shot. And 220 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:26,399 they did. They opened me up, and they used one of those halos 221 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,200 and put my arm back together with a whole bunch of pins and an external 222 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,679 halo and they put pins in my fingers to fix my broken hand, and 223 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,039 I was amazingly lucky. I've always been pretty resilient with respect to healing, 224 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:45,399 so I have full use of everything. There's still obvious bulges in my forearm 225 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:50,639 where the muscle sheaves are open, and I have some like chronic discomfort when 226 00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:54,440 the weather changes or whatever. But I didn't. Yeah, I regained full 227 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,279 function my hand that got broken, same kind of deal. It hurts little 228 00:14:58,279 --> 00:15:01,240 bit when the weather changes, but it's fine. And actually the worst of 229 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:05,639 the injuries was the severed bicep because it was about an eighty percent tear of 230 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,279 the bicep all the way through and basically the tendon was holding the bicep to 231 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,919 the shoulder still and so I have a big divot in the bicep and it 232 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:16,519 the arm is definitely a little weaker than my other arm. I worked real 233 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:20,240 hard to recover the strength, but it's probably ten percent weaker than my right 234 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,399 arm. Wow. And I mean, how long was the attack because it 235 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,559 seems like the amount of damage you have the attack would have gone on for 236 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,320 minutes, but it's yeah, it seemed like it went on forever, and 237 00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:33,919 it also seemed like it happened in an instant. I think it was somewhere 238 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,519 between forty five and ninety seconds of rolling, you know, contact and then 239 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:43,000 rolling on the ground. I think most of the damage to the forearm occurred 240 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:46,919 in the first the first shot. He wasn't messing around and he bit me, 241 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:50,600 probably as hard as he could. And you know, they estimated it's 242 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:52,600 really hard to get reliable estimates. They say that a German shepherd, a 243 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,919 full grown German shepherd who's really motivated a bite can generate around seven hundred and 244 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,159 fifty pounds per square inch, and they believe that wolves generate around twelve hundred 245 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,519 to fifteen hundred PSI. But we really don't know because it's hard to get 246 00:16:06,559 --> 00:16:08,600 them to do what you want. But it was, you know, just 247 00:16:08,639 --> 00:16:12,919 a complete crush injury the width of his jaws, and then the twisting around 248 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,799 and the biting and everything else, probably you know, did the rest of 249 00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:19,759 the damage. Wow, it's actually impressive about animal in a certain way. 250 00:16:19,919 --> 00:16:22,120 You know. I get a lot of comments because I wrote it. I 251 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,519 wrote this up on Korra, and I get a lot of comments about if 252 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:30,519 you had stuck your finger in his eye, or it wasn't your animal you 253 00:16:30,559 --> 00:16:36,279 would People just they just can't conceive of how strong and how fast he was, 254 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,080 how quick it happened. I mean, I wasn't thinking about not hurting 255 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,080 Jake. I was thinking about saving my life. I mean, it was 256 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,279 just a life or death. There was no conscious anything other than I want 257 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,840 to live. And if I don't somehow get away that you had, you 258 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:53,120 know, the awareness to tell lead a ground by the balls is amazing its 259 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,440 own, right. Yeah. I don't know where that, Like I said, 260 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,879 I don't know what angels were on my shoulder that put that message in 261 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,119 my ear because I don't know. I mean I honestly I can remember it 262 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,519 like it was yesterday, and I don't know how that came out of me, 263 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,839 but it's what I said. Amazing. Yeah, And like I said 264 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,640 again, I'd be dead if it wasn't for having the right person at the 265 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,960 right time. I mean, one of the questions that we had was if 266 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,599 you had been alone, what would you have done differently? But I guess 267 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:19,960 nothing. It seems if I had been alone, I would have died. 268 00:17:21,519 --> 00:17:22,799 Wow. If I had been alone, I would have died. I mean, 269 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,279 so I wouldn't have been alone only because I would never work two animals 270 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,200 by myself off leash. And of course I wouldn't have been able to take 271 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,920 the pictures then, because I was handling the animals and doing the things that 272 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,839 would que them and she was the one taking pictures. But yeah, I 273 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,640 mean that if Jake had attacked me in the habitat and I was by myself, 274 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,839 he would have killed me. There was no way I would have defeated 275 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,880 him. He was too much faster, too much stronger, and I wouldn't 276 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,880 have been able to get away. I mean, especially after he'd damaged one 277 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,480 hand and broken the other, I wouldn't have been able to open the gate 278 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:55,599 to escape. So true, Yeah, so I was really fortunate that I 279 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,599 had the right person at the right time. Seriously, so after you get 280 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,039 Jake, what do you do with him? Like, do you have to 281 00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:07,160 rebuild a relationship or what happens? Oh? It was so after that there 282 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:11,920 was no way that I could interact to him safely. I mean especially right 283 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,920 after, because I was so seriously injured that the vulnerabilities that I had would 284 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,799 it would have made me an easy target. I did go in the habitat 285 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,400 a few times to kind of see what happened, and he immediately started bristling 286 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,920 and getting ready to challenge me, and I didn't want to end up in 287 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,000 another altercation or hit him with a pipe or something, and so I realized 288 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,519 that this was an animal that could not safely be managed under normal circumstances. 289 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,960 And I was pretty lucky and that I knew a guy who had a facility 290 00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:41,319 that still exists, but it's kind of he's passed away since then, and 291 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,680 it's a sort of a different incarnation. But it was called Prairie Wind Animal 292 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:48,400 Refuge, and he had like bears and lions and tigers, and so he 293 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:52,119 had the ability to accommodate an animal that could have been handled by people. 294 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:57,440 So Jake ended up going there for a while with j I put Jessa with 295 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:02,559 him just to make the transition easy, and then we took Jessa back and 296 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,319 he was paired with a female wolf named Indigo, who was spectacular, and 297 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:11,559 she and Jake ultimately bred, and I ended up getting a puppy from Jake 298 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:15,839 and Indigo that I named Tahoe, who was a remarkable successful animal. I 299 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,000 bottle fed him and I was dad, and he'd never showed any indication that 300 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,480 he would be dangerous to me, and he never was. He was terrific. 301 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,640 Oh, full circle, full circle. Yeah. I got two animals 302 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,839 out of them. I made a match pair, one from Jake and Indigo 303 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:33,480 and another female from another paria named Phantom in Montana. Wow. So how 304 00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:37,599 do you think the attack affected your life personally, even away from the wolves, 305 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,880 just you and your everyday life. Well, you know, I had 306 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,279 a recovery period. Of course that was interesting and challenging since my income was 307 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:49,839 as an athlete and I truncated that for some time, so it was kind 308 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,079 of lean times. But I mean, other than that, I think it 309 00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:59,960 just it really enhanced my respect for these animals and my appreciation for the different 310 00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:03,640 it's between wolves and dogs. They look so similar and they're so closely related, 311 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,599 but they're just not the same. I learned that in a very intense 312 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,559 and personal way, and I mean I wouldn't trade it. It was a 313 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:14,839 bad experience, for sure, but it also brought me to a different level 314 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,039 and understanding what stewardship of these animals really looks like and what you need to 315 00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:22,039 be focused on when you're working with these animals. Yeah. You know, 316 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:26,240 when I first was talking to Nick about starting this podcast. We're making a 317 00:20:26,279 --> 00:20:27,400 list of different animals we wanted to cover, and I was like, oh, 318 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:30,839 let's put down wolves. In my head, I was like, I 319 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,960 could take a wolf like if they don't scare me in the slightest And then 320 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,720 I read your story and I was like, man, maybe I'm vastly underestimating 321 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:42,480 them. Yeah, maybe a little bit. Everybody. Everybody underestimates wolves. 322 00:20:42,519 --> 00:20:47,559 And I mean, on my core answer, I have hundreds of comments of 323 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,200 people who for whatever reason, think that they know better, and they share 324 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:56,799 stories of people who've killed, you know, like old women who've killed wolves 325 00:20:56,839 --> 00:21:00,759 with an axe or whatever. But almost without exception, those are European wolves, 326 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:07,319 which are somewhat smaller and just particularly in a scenario where an animal takes 327 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,559 you by surprise that's as powerful as a wolf and also has the capability to 328 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,400 move so quickly. I just my experience now and my handling experience now. 329 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,720 I've had to deal with aggressive animals where I've had to get control of them 330 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,519 on a number of occasions, and I do that very differently. But I 331 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,599 know full well that if I make a single mistake in an emergency situation, 332 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,599 I'm going to be badly, badly hurt. Gotcha, If I'm someone that's 333 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,359 just out hiking, say in Yellowstone or something, and I come upon a 334 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,359 pack of wolves or a single wolf that's aggressive towards me, what are things 335 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,680 that you can do to prevent an attack from happening, if anything. First 336 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,039 of all, this would never have happened with a wild wolf, only because 337 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,960 wild wolves are terrified. If people, we are death to wild wolves. 338 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,279 I mean, so I like people to understand that the chances of you being 339 00:21:56,319 --> 00:21:57,400 attacked by a wolf. I mean, I would, you know, not 340 00:21:57,559 --> 00:22:02,359 so concerned at all about about wolves. I worry much more about bears. 341 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:04,400 If it weren't for grizzlies, I wouldn't be afraid to sleep in wearing a 342 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,960 meat suit in Yellowstone. A wolf isn't going to attack me. A grizzly 343 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,799 will eat me for lunch, of course. But wolves are just tremendously timid 344 00:22:11,839 --> 00:22:15,680 animals, like the animal in the photo that I shared with you, Icknick. 345 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,240 When he's out of habitat and he just catches the scent of an unfamiliar 346 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:25,400 person somewhere in proximity, he wants no part of it. He'll drag me 347 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:29,440 off the trail, he'll take me off my feet in his terrified efforts to 348 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,400 get away from dangerous, unfamiliar human. And he has never had a bad 349 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:37,359 second with a human being. Every moment of his life with humans has been 350 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,440 positive, but deep within his DNA. And I believe that Lamark is correct 351 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,880 that there are certain behavioral characteristics that get shaped to the point where they're inherited. 352 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:52,359 The timidity of wolves from persecuted populations runs deep, and so you just 353 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,920 see that. What you'll see is that in the very few instances in North 354 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:03,440 America and modern history where they have reliable reports of wolves interacting negatively with humans, 355 00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:07,240 there's almost always some kind of proximate cause, like the wolves were habituated 356 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:12,039 because they'd been fed by people, or the wolf is unwell in some way 357 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:17,039 and is desperate and is you know, exploring a food source, not really 358 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:22,880 intending to attack an unfamiliar human. There's really two deaths in North America in 359 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,799 like the last hundred years that they attribute to wolves. Both of them are 360 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,640 unusual circumstances. One of them was a guy named Kent Joel Carnegie, who 361 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:36,400 was pretty clearly killed by wolves. But wolves had been accustomed to humans because 362 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,640 they'd been feeding at a dump site and they'd been around to near people, 363 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,400 and we don't really know what happened because they just found his remains. And 364 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:48,160 the other one was a woman named Candace who was killed at Lake Chignik, 365 00:23:48,319 --> 00:23:52,920 Alaska. There's some doubtst whether wolves really killed her. A friend of mine 366 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:57,039 named Paul Piquette was the only wolf biologists who investigated the incident felt like she 367 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,920 was killed by bears and then her he remains were fed on by wolves. 368 00:24:02,519 --> 00:24:04,640 But in any case, that was kind of an interesting Karmen twist of fate 369 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,759 because she'd been learning how to trap, and she was planning on going wolf 370 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:12,079 trapping with some people in the following days. And she was a diminutive woman. 371 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:17,759 She was like four foot nine, she's quite small, and she had 372 00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:22,279 gone jogging around the lake wearing headphones at dusk, and so she had taken 373 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:30,319 every conceivable means of being properly prepared in the woods and eliminated them and just 374 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,200 put herself on the menu. And so whatever happened to her, I attribute 375 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,599 that to her own bad luck and lack of forethought. When you're in Alaska, 376 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,680 you don't do stuff like that, but you know there's I mean, 377 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,559 wolves see people all day in Yellowstone, and then the interactions are quite unusual 378 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,079 that where anybody would feel threatened. And since that day, I've never once 379 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,319 felt threatened by you know, even the animals that I work with every day, 380 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,279 or which are You're by far more likely to be attacked by a captive 381 00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:59,279 wolf than you are by a wild animal. I mean, if this animal 382 00:24:59,319 --> 00:25:02,319 had been Jak, been a free running wolf, he would have been anywhere 383 00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:04,519 near me, matchab. So that kind of leads into our next question. 384 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:07,359 You know, we've seen these wolf sanctuaries around that people can go to and 385 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,640 interact with wolves. Do you feel that those are safe? Do you think 386 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,119 that's a safe business for people to be in. And so I have mixed 387 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,039 feelings about it, and not because I feel like it's unsafe, but more 388 00:25:19,079 --> 00:25:25,519 because I sometimes feel like and it's a difficult conversation in some respects because I 389 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,880 believe that ambassador wolves play a critical role in building tolerance. It's why I 390 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,240 have these animals. I think most people have these animals for wrong reasons, 391 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,480 which is more ego and to say I've got a wolf. All my animals 392 00:25:36,519 --> 00:25:40,599 are educational. We spend and we never charge for any of this. We'll 393 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,160 bring photographers here. We help fund charity events for NGOs that work with wildlife. 394 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:51,240 I'll volunteer to do exhibits and fundraising or either from zoom in the habitat, 395 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:53,200 or sometimes I'll even bring a wolf. We do talks at national parks 396 00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:56,359 in the summer so people can learn about wolves, and I think that having 397 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,039 that chance to see a wolf up close and even to touch a wolf can 398 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,160 be transformative to people and make them from somebody who is maybe mildly curious into 399 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:10,640 somebody who will advocate hard. And these species really needs hard advocacy to be 400 00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:15,000 able to recover, especially with the turning of the tide with the Trump administration 401 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,599 allowing for a nationwide delisting, and there's been a wholesale wolf slaughter since that 402 00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:22,799 happened, and it's only prime to get worse unless the Biden administration will reverse 403 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:27,079 that decision and relist wolves under the Endangered Species Act. So I think that 404 00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:32,440 wolves need all the positive PR they can get, and positive PR can come 405 00:26:32,519 --> 00:26:36,839 from those first person interactions. The only objection to it that I have is 406 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,559 not related to risk, because I think that most at least when we're talking 407 00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:45,119 about like AZYA accredited top tier facilities with professional handlers. Those are places like 408 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,079 Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary, Mission Wolf, the California Wolf Center. There's there 409 00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:56,599 are relatively few that are really skilled and been fully equipped to work these animals 410 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,680 correctly and in those circumstances. I think that they do great. My only 411 00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:03,319 objection to that is that it sometimes gives the wrong idea and then people decide 412 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,559 they want a pet wolf. Yeah, and that's the scenario that I try 413 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:11,079 to avoid it. Of course, there's a delicate dance there because people say, 414 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,279 well, you do it, and yes, I do, and so 415 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,480 I don't say no, you can have a wolf. I say, come 416 00:27:15,559 --> 00:27:18,759 see me, come see how I live to do this in a way that 417 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,519 is appropriate. And when people take you up on that, a lot of 418 00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:26,079 times they're like, Okay, I don't want that because it's a you know, 419 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,160 I say, dogs are pets having wolves as a lifestyle and it's not 420 00:27:30,519 --> 00:27:33,440 a lifestyle. Most people like, yeah, you know, it's funny you 421 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,279 talk about the delisting of wolves too. I mean, there's such a controversial 422 00:27:38,319 --> 00:27:42,559 species. If not, I mean maybe besides coyotes, like the most controversial 423 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,920 species in America, in my opinion, when it comes to predators especially, 424 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,480 are there any other misconceptions about wolves that you can think of that you want 425 00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:53,920 to talk about, Like, I know here in New Hampshire people constantly say, 426 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,839 oh, well, coyotes are always killing our deer, which is just 427 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,720 inherently not true. Is there anything like that, like, oh, wolves 428 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,440 are always killing my cattle and it's just not true or something like that. 429 00:28:04,319 --> 00:28:07,640 All, yeah, all of the above. I mean, so, yeah, 430 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,400 let's tackle a couple of them here. Yeah. So almost every bit 431 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,599 of the wolf myth is untrue. Wolves are tremendously timid. They don't kill 432 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:22,240 for fun. Killing big animals is a dangerous business. They're not one and 433 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240 done hunters. They have to work very hard. Est of its are that 434 00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:30,480 are about only one and seven serious attempts at taking down prey are successful. 435 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,319 Lots of wolves get injured in the pursuit of their food sources, because, 436 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,359 I mean, a typical elk outweighs a wolf by hundreds of pounds. Wolves 437 00:28:38,519 --> 00:28:44,079 like the Icnic that come from Alberta that specialize in bison or dealing with animals 438 00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:48,960 that are some cases twenty times their size by weight. Yeah, so the 439 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:52,599 way they kill is definitely not for the faint of heart. It's not one 440 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,480 and done like a big cat that can jump on the back and grab an 441 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,680 animal and suffocate it right away. It's a typically, especially the larger prey. 442 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,640 It's a slow, painful death. But that's how they do what they 443 00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:08,799 do. Wolves are opportunistic hunters. They're focused on the easy options on their 444 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,960 menu. As I said, they don't kill for sport. When wolves kill 445 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,160 a bunch of animals at one time, it's a behavior called surplus killing, 446 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,759 and it's because those animals are vulnerable. It's not because it's fun. It's 447 00:29:18,839 --> 00:29:23,400 because it's like going to Costco and discovering that filats are a dollar ninety nine 448 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,000 a pounds, So you fill your whole cart and you're not going to throw 449 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:29,319 those away in the parking lot. You're going to pack them in the freezer 450 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,519 in need them later. Wolves are the same. Wolves don't represent a threat 451 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:37,160 to people. Their impact on livestock is minuscule in spite of what ranchers say, 452 00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:41,319 and my family was one of the largest beef producers in Colorado history. 453 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,960 I don't consider most of these ranchers that whine and cry about wolves to even 454 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160 be ranchers. They're hobbyists with the herd. I mean to put it in 455 00:29:48,279 --> 00:29:53,079 perspective. We had fifty four thousand head at the typical peak operation, and 456 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:59,119 these guys have a couple hundred head. Maybe they're grazing these animals on public 457 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,319 lands where wolf, wolves and wild things belong and not cattle. And even 458 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,000 so, even though they're just turning their cattle loose on public lands and for 459 00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:10,440 the most part just neglecting them for an entire summer and rounding them up in 460 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,759 the fall, wolves kill a very small number of those animals, and in 461 00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:18,920 many cases kills attributed to wolves, we're actually the animals dying from something else 462 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,519 and wolves feeding on the carcass. And then the rancher screams wolf and tries 463 00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:27,319 to get compensated for the loss, because there in many states there's compensation programs 464 00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:32,039 that will pay a rancher for their losses. Yep. But of course they 465 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:34,240 have, you know, one hundred stories about how bad wolves are, and 466 00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:40,440 they want the woods cleansed of anything that represents even the most minuscule threat to 467 00:30:40,519 --> 00:30:44,039 their herds. They'd probably prefer that there's not elk or deer in those woods. 468 00:30:44,079 --> 00:30:45,759 Either, so there's more forage for their cattle, which I think is 469 00:30:45,839 --> 00:30:49,599 an atrocity. I don't think that cattle belong on public lands. I didn't 470 00:30:49,599 --> 00:30:52,640 even know that was an issue that cattle were on public lands to begin with. 471 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:59,000 It's a massive issue. A cowcaf pair costs a dollar thirty five per 472 00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:03,240 month to graze on our land, which doesn't even cover the cost to rehabilitate 473 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:08,720 the land. Because cattle are a truly invasive species that result in huge damage 474 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:15,200 to water courses. They foul water courses, they trample down grasses, They're 475 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,880 tremendously damaging to the environment. You can see here in Tahoe where I live, 476 00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:23,359 there are some decommissioned allotments that have now been vacated for two decades, 477 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,000 and you can still see the damage the cattle did to these high mountain meadows. 478 00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:32,279 And so they really don't belong. The public doesn't realize that we're paying 479 00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:37,039 for private business to use our public lands for private industry. The irony is 480 00:31:37,119 --> 00:31:41,440 that these guys, these ranchers, claim they're feeding America, but the percentage 481 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,799 of cattle that's actually graysed like that is minuscule in comparison to the feed yards 482 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:49,640 where most of our beef comes from. So it's an industry that really should 483 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,799 go away. And I know ranchers aren't going to like hearing me say that. 484 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,599 And when I go to federal hearings, the ranchers hate me more than 485 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,240 anybody because they can't discredit me by calling me the snow because I'll just say, 486 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:04,119 oh, really, we had more We had more cattle in a calving 487 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,000 barn than you have in your entire herd. Go away. You know. 488 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:12,039 I feel like in New Hampshire we have the same but slightly different struggle, 489 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,160 where so many people have backyard chickens that they just let free range and then 490 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,640 call me and say, well a bear or a fox ate my free ranging 491 00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:24,359 chicken, can I kill it? And it's like you can't protect your cattle 492 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,480 that you just let loose into the woods, and no one's responsible for that 493 00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,559 death but you. It's the only industry I know where you can exhibit wilful 494 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,519 neglect and still get compensated for it and have the government fly helicopters to shoot 495 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:42,319 wolves when they take out your livestock. Yeah, were there any other misconceptions 496 00:32:42,359 --> 00:32:45,359 about wolves you could think of? I mean, we covered cattle. There's 497 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,559 one that always there's so many, but there's one that always gets me, 498 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:55,519 which is lone wolf. Oh yeah, it's just such an unfortunate phrase because 499 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:00,839 the irony is that when a wolf is alone, it's at its most vulnerable, 500 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,039 it's at its least likely to be doing anything wrong. Because when wolves 501 00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:08,119 are lone wolves, it's what's called a disperser, and that's an animal that's 502 00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:12,839 set out from its natal group. You know, wolf packs are just families. 503 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,240 There isn't any bunch of wolves that got together and decided, okay, 504 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:19,559 we're going marauding. Now. That happens with feral dogs. It does not 505 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,039 happen with wolves. Packs are family groups. Those animals are all related. 506 00:33:23,079 --> 00:33:27,440 It's mom and dad and maybe some brothers or sisters of mom and dad, 507 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,799 and then offspring of one or more generations. Because wolves take a long time 508 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,279 to get mature, some of them never disperse, and when they do, 509 00:33:35,759 --> 00:33:38,559 it's the most risky and dangerous time in their lives. Because they're now they're 510 00:33:38,599 --> 00:33:43,799 forced to contend with feeding themselves and they can't kill the same stuff they normally 511 00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:47,000 would as easily, so they're forced to, you know, look for carrion 512 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,839 or kill small game, and they have to contend with being in the territory 513 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,000 potentially of other wolves which might find them to be a trespasser and subject them 514 00:33:58,039 --> 00:34:00,720 to aggression. And all they're trying to do is find the place where they 515 00:34:00,759 --> 00:34:05,759 can find a girlfriend and set up a family. And so when we see 516 00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:08,639 all the lone wolf sniper, it just makes my head explode because it's such 517 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:15,360 an unfortunate and loaded term that is so biologically inaccurate. And then, of 518 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,039 course, as I mentioned, you know that wolf pack that I don't even 519 00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:22,599 use the term wolf pack. You'll see I always use family group because I 520 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,360 want people to understand that even a named pack is still just a family. 521 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,000 In wolf packs, it's not like they're fighting for status and the top dog 522 00:34:30,119 --> 00:34:32,280 gets to breed. It's mom and dad. Like, you don't fight your 523 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:37,519 dad for breeding rights with mom. Yeah, and neither do wolves. That's 524 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:40,079 not how it works. If there's any kind of of a dominant hierarchy, 525 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:45,280 it's more just ritualized behaviors, and it's parents disciplining the young and saying you 526 00:34:45,519 --> 00:34:49,679 have bad manners, shape up, And a lot of what we see is 527 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,320 display. It's not aggression, And so I would say that those are the 528 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,360 two big ones. There is no alpha wolf, it's mom and dad, 529 00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:00,360 and that there is no lone you know, marauding lone wolf if it's a 530 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,719 disperser looking for love. Have you ever seen that picture that was going around 531 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,280 Facebook, if you even have one, where it was a big wolf pack 532 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,559 and there was a few hanging out in the back and somebody wrote the description, 533 00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:15,679 Yeah, the description of the old ones go in the front and the 534 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,480 blood. Yeah, that's there's a great actually a great analysis of that on 535 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:22,079 Snopes, Believe it or not, but yeah, that's completely bumped. Yeah, 536 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:29,159 there have been some incredibly large wolf family groups where particularly at the earliest 537 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:35,440 years of Yellowstone's reintroduction, where there was such plentiful populations of prey that had 538 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,559 been so weakened because they hadn't had proper controls from predators. When food is 539 00:35:39,559 --> 00:35:45,000 abundant, wolves will reproduce more successfully. And now we know that when there's 540 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,840 enough abundance of prey that a very large family group can feed everybody, that 541 00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:52,360 they'll stay together. And so they had a pack I think the largest was 542 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:57,400 maybe thirty seven animals, and that might have been the druids, and that 543 00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:01,519 was a very unusual circumstance because there were multi breeding pairs, wow, and 544 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,559 so they were very efficient. But this whole idea that the old ones going 545 00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:12,000 front, that just, yeah, that's exactly what I kind of organization. 546 00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:15,480 There's definitely altruism among wolves. I mean, for sure, you know, 547 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:19,360 when a female is got pups in a den and isn't really well positioned to 548 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,760 go hunting because she'd be leaving pups behind, they provision her with food. 549 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:28,039 I think there's plenty of evidence that an injured wolf will sometimes be provisioned by 550 00:36:28,119 --> 00:36:30,559 family members to the point where they can make a recovery if they can. 551 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,719 And nobody starves to death in a wolf family group if there's enough food. 552 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,239 It's not like one Bogart's all the food and everybody else has to fight for 553 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,639 scraps. It doesn't work like that. It's just been so great to talk 554 00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:46,199 to you, because whenever I go to a dog trainer, that's what they 555 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,639 spew to me, like, oh, well, you know it's all about 556 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,679 dominance, which I just inherently know is not true. It drives me insane. 557 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,840 Funny story, and you might want to clip this part for when you 558 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,360 publish as I don't want to get you in trouble. But Caesar Milan came 559 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,920 to a friend of mine's facility and tried to be dominant almost ended up dead. 560 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,360 I believe it. I make no secret of the fact that I think 561 00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:13,719 Caesar Milan is a joke who is a serial animal abuser and is not a 562 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:19,920 dog trainer. Dog trainers work under positive reinforcement only. That's exactly how I 563 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,880 work with my animals. When I say work with my animals, you know, 564 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,320 they're my teammates. They're not my inmates. If they don't want to 565 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,079 do something, they're not doing it. It's as simple as that. I 566 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:31,840 thought. The only thing that I will ever make an animal do they don't 567 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,480 want to do is get in a vehicle when we're done with something that we 568 00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:38,159 need to go. Sometimes I have to give a little shove. But aside 569 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:42,559 from that, there's no you know, there's no forcing these animals. And 570 00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:45,400 I don't force my dogs either. Everybody works with me and we're a team. 571 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:49,360 So you also have dogs on top of the wolves. So I have 572 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,199 a malamute, I would a giant Willie malamut named Bixby, who I credit 573 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,480 with a lot of my success. I would say that almost everybody that's experienced 574 00:37:58,519 --> 00:38:04,639 to doing this, who's working with these animals and exhibiting these animals professionally invariably. 575 00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:07,000 And I think if you look at like the Wolf Conservation Center in New 576 00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:10,599 York, almost all of us use they call them nanny dogs. I think 577 00:38:10,639 --> 00:38:15,480 that's a little bit demeaning, particularly when the mal meat is a giant, 578 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,519 intact male. So I call them mentor dogs. And I love workings. 579 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:22,239 I love malod meats. Anyway, They're my favorite breed of domestic dog. 580 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,320 They're just so wolf like without without any of the negatives. They have all 581 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,760 the positives the wolves out the negatives. They're a great translator. They speak 582 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:37,000 wolf incredibly well because they're very primitive dogs, and they also speak human perfectly. 583 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,760 And so they're my internally, you know, my intercessor, my interpreter 584 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,280 between me and my animals, and especially when out in public, they look 585 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,400 to him to see how he's interpreting a situation and take cues from his behavior. 586 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,679 So if you've got a great, steady, well adjusted, calm mentor 587 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,039 dog, it makes a huge difference. And also people ask what's the difference 588 00:38:57,159 --> 00:38:59,840 in a wolf and a dog? And so bringing out a giant malomi, 589 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:01,519 which is a really wolfy dog, and then bring it out a wolf. 590 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,760 People can still see there's all these differences, and I think that's great for 591 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,039 educating, especially young people. Well. Also, what a great tool to 592 00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:13,639 say instead of saying to me that you want a pet wolf, here is 593 00:39:13,679 --> 00:39:17,480 a domesticated option, a malamute. And I do that all the time and 594 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,840 pray that people make that choice and don't. If they go out and they 595 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,559 get themselves some wolf dog of any content, appreciable content, the chances are 596 00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:29,960 they're going to be calling me or somebody like me in a year when they 597 00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:32,599 realize that they don't want this life. They don't want the restrictions. I 598 00:39:32,639 --> 00:39:36,920 mean, I give you some examples. Now, very few people do what 599 00:39:37,039 --> 00:39:38,679 I do. People that do it at the level I do it are mostly 600 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,119 facilities that have full staffs. It's not a man and his wife. But 601 00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:46,519 I don't like that some of the restrictions associated with that. For example, 602 00:39:46,639 --> 00:39:50,320 my home is in the center of my habitat, so my animals are in 603 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,199 and out of my house. They live, I live with them. I 604 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,320 don't like that separation of habitat is here, houses here, they or other. 605 00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,400 We are family, and family lives together. But my wife and I 606 00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:04,639 have been married twenty years. We've never been on an airplane together because one 607 00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:07,559 of us is always on the ground. Wow. When we travel, if 608 00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:09,159 we're going to go on a vacation, it's you know, when we just 609 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:14,360 had Bixby and a que toc our arctic animal, we go and travel and 610 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,199 stay at Motel six. But with a third animal, that's just too much. 611 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,119 And so our travel is now restricted to you know, backcountry backpacking or 612 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,719 distributed camping where we can go way far away. That's a vacation. Wow. 613 00:40:28,599 --> 00:40:30,039 Damn. Yeah, there's no kennel right when you roll up and say 614 00:40:30,039 --> 00:40:36,039 all right here take it Nick and Aku, good luck guys. Is there 615 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:39,599 any way people can get involved? Where can people find you? Give us 616 00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:43,960 everything? So I'm pretty easy. I mean, all you got to do 617 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,119 if you want to find me is type in the wolf guy, and I 618 00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:47,840 think Oliver is the first thing that comes up. And even though you got 619 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,960 the right guy, and as far as what can people do right now is 620 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:59,840 a critical time for wolves. The Biden administration is Joe Biden actually just mentioned 621 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,599 that his grandkids are quite upset about what's happening, and he's looking into what 622 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:07,639 they can do to reverse this delisting. As far as involvement, I would 623 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:14,320 urge the Biden administration to restore protections. I would sign any any petitions. 624 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,159 It's better if you make your own comment rather than just hitting here's my name, 625 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,280 send personal comments, especially changing the subject line in an email really helps, 626 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:27,360 and just staying informed about it. If you're curious about what it's like 627 00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,599 to have these animals, before you go out and get yourself a wolf dog, 628 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:35,119 I really recommend you spend some time visiting a sanctuary and ce a what 629 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,480 kind of care these animals really require and be the consequences of failure which are 630 00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:44,679 high and negative for the animals, in particular because they never recover from losing 631 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,480 their natal family. They're never the same. Wolves are family creatures, and 632 00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:51,840 if you kick them out of your family, their behavior changes for sure. 633 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,800 I highly recommend if you want to support any facilities. My two favorite, 634 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,039 and I known the people that founded them and run these things for decades. 635 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,119 Mission Wolf, which is run by a fellow named Kent Weber that's in Colorado, 636 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,960 and Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary, which is in Candy Kitchen, New Mexico 637 00:42:09,039 --> 00:42:14,039 and the Zuni Pueblo. They both allow people to interact with animals and they 638 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:19,480 have amazing facilities and top tier care. And then there's organizations that are not 639 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,360 so they don't allow, for example, contact with the animals or anything. 640 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:28,000 But the International Wolf Center is remarkable. That's an ely Minnesota, beautiful facility. 641 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:30,800 Also run by friend of mine. The Wolf Conservation Center in New York 642 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,800 is a fantastic, remarkable place. Wolf Park in Indiana also amazing, and 643 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,039 they do these exhibits where they allow they have bison also and they allow the 644 00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:44,639 wolves to test the bison. And so if you can find a day when 645 00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:47,360 they're doing that and get to see how they won't kill these bison. They're 646 00:42:47,599 --> 00:42:52,159 far too robust. But it's fascinating to watch how the wolves sort of faint 647 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:53,960 and try to get them to move and figure out, you know, are 648 00:42:54,039 --> 00:42:58,119 there any vulnerabilities, and of course they realize no, these animals are in 649 00:42:58,199 --> 00:43:00,519 vulnerable, so we're not going to go buy them. But it's fascinating and 650 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,280 those people are amazing as well. These are all top tier, you know, 651 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:09,480 AZA accredited, and I will tell you that my facility meets and exceeds 652 00:43:09,679 --> 00:43:15,519 every standard for AZA credation even though it's a private property. Thank you so 653 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,239 much, Oliver. So it's my pleasure. I'm excited for you guys. 654 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,840 I hope you have great success. All right, Episode three, Nick, 655 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,880 how did you feel about our interview with Oliver? Oh? It was amazing. 656 00:43:27,119 --> 00:43:29,760 So we're according to this a couple weeks after the interview. That was 657 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,760 our first interview experience, and it was awesome. We came out of that 658 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,719 like jittery, yeah, like so pumped. Oh yeah, I mean it 659 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,079 was amazing to talk to Oliver and he was great. Afterwards. He actually 660 00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:43,400 put us on FaceTime and showed us around the enclosure for the wolves he has, 661 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,920 which was just awesome. We got to meet the wolves, got to 662 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,199 see him. He is a real great dude. He does the right things 663 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,039 with his animals. He's not one of these guys like Joe exotic who's just 664 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,400 trying to show off his animals. Like he is and a biologist and a 665 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,840 biologist. Yeah, I mean, he is just great. So it was 666 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,440 really interesting just to him talking about his experience with them, talk about how 667 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,840 how difficult it is to live with the wolves, because yeah, you know 668 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,599 that I personally would love to have a wolf, but no freaking way I 669 00:44:09,639 --> 00:44:12,800 could do it. Yeah, And you know, I thought it was great 670 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,639 that he talked about and the fact that he owns a malamw and he talks 671 00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:17,079 about the fact that, like, if you're just a run of the mill 672 00:44:17,159 --> 00:44:21,039 person and you think that you want a wolf dog or a wolf dog hybrid, 673 00:44:21,199 --> 00:44:22,360 which you should not get. We will talk about it later, to 674 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,920 get a malamu, because they're as close as you can get. And you 675 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,960 know, as I was saying at the beginning of the episode, I've always 676 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,159 wanted to work with wolves, and the closest have gotten so far is working 677 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:37,840 with a team of sled dogs, like twenty plus Siberian huskies. And let 678 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:42,840 me tell you, they are plenty of dog enough for people who want wolves. 679 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,280 They are their third of the size. Yeah, dude, they're brutal. 680 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,880 They legitimately would try to kill each other sometimes, and it's no joke. 681 00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:52,679 They're badass. Yeah. So I thought that was a great point that, 682 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,840 you know, people should just get domesticated dogs instead of wolves, because 683 00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,039 that's why we did that thousands of years ago. Don't be stupid, I 684 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:02,119 have a wild animal in your house. How about that? Yeah, And 685 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,639 you know it's so ironic to me the more I thought about this interview. 686 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,280 You know the fact that wolves there's such a controversial species, maybe the most 687 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,199 controversial species besides like coyotes in America. And we love our dogs, but 688 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:20,400 we hate the two canines that we live with. Like why they are They 689 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,000 are wild animals and people want them to be dogs. Yeah, it's like, 690 00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:27,599 why not just just appreciate them outside for what they are, which is 691 00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:30,519 like a wild thing. And like Oliver was saying, they're skittish, they 692 00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:34,800 don't want to come near you, so give them their space and watch them 693 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,920 from afar. Absolutely, do you have anything else to say? Nick? 694 00:45:37,199 --> 00:45:42,159 No, I'm not sure if I got into my experience in Yellowstone at all 695 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,239 this episode. But if I did, let's cut this out. If not, 696 00:45:45,079 --> 00:45:49,440 I was. Yeah, I was lucky enough to go up there in 697 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,079 November of twenty nineteen before the world went to shit, and from a very 698 00:45:53,159 --> 00:45:58,800 far distance we will see the junction Butte Pack, which is mentioned in this 699 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:00,599 episode. They just had fresh kill. They're all hanging out. I guess 700 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:04,840 some amazing pictures of them so far away. It was an amazing day, 701 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,400 but it was just unbelievable experience. They are amazing animals and I really hope 702 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:13,920 they come back strong. If I see them in the wild for the first 703 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,039 time, I will record myself crying and if you join our Patreon you can 704 00:46:17,119 --> 00:46:22,559 see it. That's what the people pay money for, exactly, Ashley crying 705 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,159 because she can't handle herself around wild animals. Thank you so much for listening 706 00:46:27,199 --> 00:46:30,800 to episode three of Get Out Alive. To see more information and links for 707 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,239 this episode, check out the episode description below, or check out our website 708 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:38,199 get Out Alive podcast dot com. Please please please rate us on Apple Podcasts 709 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:43,559 and subscribe wherever you're listening. We are now on Google Podcasts. You're welcome. 710 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,559 What's up? Join us on Patreon, Like I was saying, you 711 00:46:45,639 --> 00:46:49,559 can subscribe for as little as twenty five cents an episode. It really helps 712 00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:52,559 Nick and I out because we're the ones doing all the editing and everything for 713 00:46:52,639 --> 00:46:55,079 this, Like it's just the two of us, so we're able to put 714 00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:59,760 more time into it and you know, invest in better equipment essentially to give 715 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,039 you that content, so we would appreciate it so so much. You can 716 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:06,360 follow us on Instagram at get out a Live pod. And follow me on 717 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:10,599 Twitter at the Angry Ologist. Nick I would like to remain silent. You 718 00:47:10,679 --> 00:47:15,239 plead the fifth PA cool. Thank you to my good friend and second grade 719 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,639 husband Josh Walsh for making our intro music, and we will be back with 720 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,360 a new animal attack story next Wednesday