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Ask What Up to everybody? Welcome
to another episode of Let's Ask Paul,

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the podcast, where I, Paul
Abernathy, attempt to answer all of your

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pressing electrical questions submitted to me through
our online portal over at Paul Abernathy dot

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com. That's p A U l
A B E r n A t h

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y dot com. Now, feel
free to submit me any electrical question you

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have on the National Electrical Code,
whether it's the twenty seventeen, twenty twenty

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twenty twenty three or any earlier code
cycle if you want. I don't mind

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doing the research and looking up something
for you if it helps get you the

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answer. That's what I'm all about. But thanks for taking the time out

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download any software onto your computer.
All right. So today's episode, I

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wanted to kind of talk about something
that I promised that I would talk about

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that has to do with the single
gang boxes and the exception that applies to

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that. Whereas if you have a
two and a quarter by four inch nail

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up box, for example, and
it has a tab in the back,

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which again we'll talk about whether that's
a knockout or whether or not that's considered

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a securement method by the manufacturer of
the box. We're gonna talk about that

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today because again there's a lot of
stuff out there about this, and I

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have my own opinions of it and
what I believe that most electricians do,

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and so I want to talk about
that and how it would be approached.

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But the importance of this when people
say is this is a petty thing that

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that little tab on the back of
those nail up boxes, whether it's a

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car line or a context, they
go, Paul, what's the big deal?

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Well, the big deal about it
is if you're using nonmetallic sheaf cable

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that you typically if you're following the
rules in three thirty four dot thirty for

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nonmetallic sheaf cable, you're gonna need
to secure that NM cable within twelve inches

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if that has a clamp on the
box. Well, the reason we're talking

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about this is because there is an
exception that's in the code that talks about,

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well, what happens if there is
no clamp on the box and the

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boxes of a certain size, what
do we do with it? And so

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that's kind of the genesis of what
we're talking about today. And I'm going

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to get into some of the nuances. And again, I am totally aware

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that there are two different camps on
this, and there's people that swear it's

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emphatically that it's it's it's simply a
ko a knockout, and others that are

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simply say no, the manufacturer says
it's a clamp or it can be used

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as a clamp. So we're going
to kind of dig into my feelings on

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this, and again, you can
agree to disagree, that's totally up to

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you, but we're going to look
at it from a perspective of what does

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the National Electrical Code say, Because
at the end of the day, when

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I post stuff like this, it's
to make you think, because the HJ

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is the one that has to make
the decision, right, they're the one

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that are going to look at this
and say, okay, well, if

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you're following the allowances, it has
a clamp on it, then you can

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go all the way up to twelve
inches before you secure that cable to the

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frame you member, Whereas if it's
just a knockout, then you have an

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allowance exception if you will that says
okay, well you have to secure it

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as it leaves that ko and goes
up. It has to be within eight

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inches. Now where's that in the
code. So if you've got your code

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books, what you're going to be
looking forward and I'm in the twenty twenty

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edition of the Nationaltrial Code. For
this episode, you're gonna be going to

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three fourteen dot seventeen B and that
is boxes and conduit bodies. And then

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under that you'll notice that there's a
B two and it talks about conductors entering

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through a cable clamp. Now it
talks about where cable assemblies and with nonmetallic

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sheathing are used. And again we're
talking now NMB nonmetallic. It says she

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shall extend not less than a core
of an inch inside the box and beyond

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any cable clamp, except that's provided
in three hundred fifteen C and basically that's

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where the conductors are coming in.
Let's say a cable's coming in through a

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raceway anyway, maybe for her physical
damage protection things like that, then you

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really kind of don't need to secure
any cable to the box because it's literally

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protected by being in the raceway.
Right. It says the wiring method shall

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be secured to the box or condraid
body. So basically cable when brought to

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a box gets secured to the box. How there's an exception to that.

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An exception under three fourteen dot seventeen
B two says where non metallic sheet cable

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is used with single gang non metallic
boxes. Okay, so key, it's

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non metallic, not larger than two
and a quarter by four inches, So

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we're talking a typical single gang nail
up box mounted in walls or ceilings,

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and where the cable is fastened within
eight inches of the box measured along the

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sheath, and where the sheath extends
through the cable knockout not less than a

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quarter an inch, securing the cable
to the box shall not be required.

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Okay, so that's the exception.
So many of the manufacturers out there make

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single gag nail ups, and I
use two of the main manufacturers, car

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Line, which I believe is owned
by dag on It. I'm drawing a

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blank car Line overall, abb I
think. And then Context is zonned by

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Cantex and they both make boxes.
Now, some of the single game,

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most of the ones from from Cantex
had this little V shaped insert where it's

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kind of like has a little gap
in it, and it's V shaped and

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you push the cable in it and
it literally presses against it and that will

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hold and restrict the cable. So
that's a clamp. And it's built into

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the non metallic box, so obviously
that's a clamp. So then the next

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the staple. Let's just say that
you're securing you wouldn't be using this exception

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and you'd just be securing it within
twelve inches now, you could have secured

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it eight ten, eleven, seven
six, it doesn't matter. It just

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can't be more than twelve inches away. Right now, the question comes in

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with the boxes, like the car
Line box, and I've seen them in

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two ways, right I've seen some
of the car Line boxes with the knockout

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in the back, and I'll call
it a knockout because on some of them

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there's no ribs or no, there's
nothing. It's just a flat piece of

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plastic. And the typical thing that
electrician does is they'll take the backside of

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their side cutters or screw driver or
whatever and just pop that out. And

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if it's totally removed, then obviously
it's a KO. And so if that's

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the case, then that's fine.
As long as a quarter of an inch

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of your sheathing goes into the box
and you secure that cable within eight inches,

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you're good to go. That's what
the exception is all about. In

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three fourteen seventeen B two the exception. Now, what we've got is that

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Carlon also and they have multiple boxes, by the way, and if you

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go look at Carlon, they will
actually give you like four or five different

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examples of their nail up boxes and
things like that. And we're looking at

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the single gang box again, the
two and a quarter by four inch box

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that has little grooves on the tab. So if you look at the literature

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from Carlon and again this is where
the reason I bring this up because I

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know the practice of an electrician is
just to pound it out and in that

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the case, it's a knockout,
and that's when this rule is going to

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come into play, and you just
secure it with it eight inches. Okay,

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it's not going to change the world, but it is what it is.

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Now. The manufacturer for those boxes
that have the tabs that are to

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also be used as a clamp actually
states on their literature that it is contains

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clamps. Well, now, some
people say, well, spinning it to

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the side is the intent of that, and I don't believe that is the

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intent of that. I believe that
it is. The intent is to You're

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only supposed to remove one side of
the connecting membrane for that tab. You

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move one side of it, and
then the tab is still there. Even

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though you remove one side, it
just still hangs there because of the tension

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from the other tabs the other connecting
membrane. So what happens is you simply

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break one side of the tab and
the tab will swing in and you simply

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push the cable inside and that will
act as a clamp when you try to

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pull it back out. Now,
I know that people have tried this and

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done this, and some say that
it doesn't restrict the pulling it out and

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I get that, but from the
manufacturer's perspective, they believe that it puts

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enough tension on there that it's not
going to pull out, and thus they're

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going to call it a clamp.
Now, the HJ may come along and

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say, I don't think so,
I think it's a ko and that's in

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their prerogative. But when you provide
them with the information from the manufacturer,

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who again, at the end of
the day, one ten, dot three,

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b Okay, all of this stuff
that tab is part of the manufacturing

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process. If the manufacturer gives you
something. And that's why I always tell

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people, don't be afraid to reach
out to the manufacturer, because the manufacturer

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knows their products better than anybody.
Don't try to outsmart the manufacturer, all

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right. They're the ones that are
going to take the liability if they tell

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you to do something that's wrong.
So they're not going to do that.

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They're going to attempt to give you
the best information they can. So I

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don't know why people find it such
a struggle to simply make a call to

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a manufacturers. It's a simple process. And so if the literature that is

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provided says that these are clamps,
then me as an inspector, and I

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have been an inspect I'm gonna look
at it and i'm gonna go, Okay,

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if you say it's a clamp,
it's a clamp. It's fine.

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Um, and I'm gonna say that's
fine. Go up to twelve inches.

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If you knock it all the way
out, then I'm going to say no,

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I need to have a securement within
eight inches. It's it's pretty straightforward.

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All I have to do is look
at it now. Back in the

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day, when when I installed the
single nail boxes, I'm gonna be be

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honest with you, I just pounded
out that that that that tab and it

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was gone. I'm really, I
mean not just it was gone. And

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in that case, it's a ko
and I'm gonna put these staple within eight

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inches. It's not that big of
deal. But the reason I brought this

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up is because it became a big
deal when a gentleman posted a question about

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it and I tried to explain it
and he went just a yes or no

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answer. Well, all of you
know, you don't come to my forums,

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00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:56,840
you don't come to my websites for
a yes or no answer. You

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get the in depth analysis at the
end. Of the day. The HJ

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is the one that's going to have
to make the call. And if the

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manufacturer, in their literature, remembering
they're the ones that produce the product,

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if they state that it has a
clamp and it is the box you're using,

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then whether you like it or not, it's a clamp. As far

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as in the eyes of the code. It's a one ten three B.

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It's the manufacturer's statement, that's what
it is. If it's all knocked out

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or removed, then it's a KO. Okay. So this really only comes

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into play on a single game box. And as I tell people all the

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time, you do you if you
feel so passionately that it's a tap and

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it's a ko, then make sure
that you're diligently securing that cable within eight

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inches because that's you need to practice
what you preach. Right. If you

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feel it's a clamp and you do
it at twelve inches and an inspector rejects

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you and you give them the document
from the manufacturer that says it is considered

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a clamp on these style of boxes, then he can say, well,

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it doesn't look like a clamp to
me, and then they're gonna start going

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into the code and say, well, it says it has to secure well

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in the eyes of the manufacturer,
and they're testing it does secure. There's

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enough tension on it that they feel
it secures it. I do tell people

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also, we're following the intent of
the code. We're not overanalyzing it,

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and we're not recreating the wheel here. Do you think that in a wall?

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If you have a nail up box
and you remove one connecting edge of

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the clamp so that it's still there
like a swinging door, you push in

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the cable. Okay, you don't
pre push the tab, man, You

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literally cut the tab and then you
push the cable in. It should catch

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it enough to not pull out.
It should have enough resistance on it.

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Do you really think it's going to
move in the wall? I mean really,

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So we can argue the semantics of
eight inches or twelve inches, but

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it's all about the tab. Now
again, if you're move the whole thing,

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okay, there you go, secure
it within eight inches. If you

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leave the tab, you only could
move one side of the tab. This

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two can. Usually it has the
tab is connected on opposite sides with a

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little membrane to the box, and
you simply break that tab on one side.

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Then it acts as a spring retention. And that's what the manufacturers intended,

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00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,759
and that's why they put on their
literature that is considered a clamp,

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whether you agree with it or not, whether you do your own testings,

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and it pulls out again if it's
in the wall or people going to be

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pulling on it. If you're still
securing the cable within eight inches or twelve

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inches, is it going to move
anywhere? No, it's not, and

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we all just be thankful that people
are even securing anything anyway. So because

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I've seen some of the work on
TikTok and Instagram and tradehounds, and it

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shocks me anyway that things don't burn
down every day. So I would not

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sweat the small stuff, but I
would use my golden rule here, as

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if you knock a k out ko
all the way out on a two and

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a quarterby four inch nail up box, then you need to secure that cable.

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What they'd inches if you remove the
tab just one side and the tab

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is still there and it's kind of
like a hinged door and you push the

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cable in and a tab is still
intact, then I'm going to call it

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the clamp as long as the manufacturer
has literature that says it's a clam,

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and Carlins do say it's a clamp. Now, when it comes to contexts,

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they're designed that V shape design makes
it very evident that it's going to

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hold the cable, so it's clamp. The others will say, well,

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the code says it has secure the
cable. Right, So I'm sitting there

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going okay, Well, at the
end of the day, when you're looking

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at the exception, it's it's only
talking about when it's a KO. Other

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than that, as long as that
tab is touching that sheathing and that sheathing

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is against the box, then it's
connected to the box. It's secured to

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the box. Now, how secure
do you want it to be? Okay,

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you know you can get into the
semantics of that. Again, at

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the end of the day, it
ain't going anywhere, so no sense in

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losing any sleep over that, right, So summarize this. I'm gonna giving

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you my opinion that if you go
to this nail up box and you knock

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that knockout out of that two and
a quarterback four inch nail up box,

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then it's a KO. Make sure
you put us strap or staple or whatnot

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within eight inches. If you want
to go in and cut out one side

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of that tab so that still has
the spring retention on it, and you

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push that cable into it to make
sure that you can go all the way

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up to twelve inches. Because the
manufacturer calls that a clamp, then you

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do, you go and you can
secure it to twelve inches. Me personally,

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I'm going to secure the damn thing
within eight inches so that I don't

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have to worry about an inspector saying
it's a knockout or a clamp. What's

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the big deal four inches? Okay, I'm just going to do it at

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eight inches and I'm moving on.
And that's the way I always did it,

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regardless it's about it. I didn't
never went up to twelve inches,

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and most of the time I was
probably closer than eight inches. But anyway,

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that's my thought on it. The
debate can roll on. You can

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call it a tab, you can
call it a ko you can call it

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whatever you want. If the manufacturer
calls it a clamp, and there is

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a specific way, and there are
instructions on the internet how to remove one

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side of that tab with a razor
knife. Then it becomes a clamp based

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on that manufacturer's testing, and that's
part of their listening and that's why they'll

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put in there that it's a clamp. So moral of the story, don't

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be afraid to reach out to your
manufacturer, get some clarification if there's any

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question about it, to make easier
mind, to make you feel better.

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But at the end of the day, it could go either way. It's

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the hj's call. They have that
authority. I would secure it within eight

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inches and you don't have to worry
about it either way. All right,

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all right, folks, that's all
I got for that episode. You can

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00:18:53,079 --> 00:18:56,720
agree to disagree. If you have
any questions that you want covered here at

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00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:00,240
Let's Ask Paul, just go to
Paul Aberne at the TOM I love to

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00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,680
hear the questions from you. We
will be answering a lot of questions also

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00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,799
live on our Fast Tracks Live that
starts June twenty eighth at seven thirty pm

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00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,640
Central Time. Makes You can join
us on all of your favorite social media

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00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:17,839
platforms that we're attached to, so
make sure you check it out. Until

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00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:42,559
next time, folks, Stay safe, God bless Ask