Uh, today's episode is special. I know right, I'm sitting here with
my good friend Kimberly Anderson. For those of you do who don't know her,
Where the fuck have you been? Where the fuck have you been?
Probably escaping Mormonism? Good? Good, congratulations if that's absolutely the reason we
are recording together today, A Kimberly is awesome. B I just got back
from my mom's Mormon funeral, and I thought it would be a good idea
to unpack this with an actual professional therapist because there's some ship, and also
with an ex Mormon because check and check. So yeah, that's the intro
let's I guess we do a commercial. No, I don't know. Mary's
not here to tell me where every you know when, what house. We're
just gonna fucking wing it, wing it so it might be like a three
hour long podcast. I know I'm fucking with you anyway. Commercial back,
Kimberly. Before we get started, I tell tell the listeners why you are
the best to be in this episode. Well, a thank you for even
considering that that would be the case. I don't like superlatives. I will
say though, that I'm probably qualified to talk to you, mainly because I'm
your friend, that's true. Yeah, and we have a common history both
in escaping and post mormonism, right right. I also am a trained therapist.
So let's make one thing very clear. This is not therapy. No,
no, this is not a therapy session. I am paying Kimberly.
So what it is, though, is you talking to a therapeutically informed friend.
So you are not my client or you've never been my client? That
will you ever be my client? Because that would be unethical. You know
too much. I don't know, way too much, way, way too
much. However, many audience members of LDL are my either current client or
have been a past client. Eh. So if that is you, then
I will say hello and welcome. Oh that's awesome, that's awesome. Oh
wow, Where to begin? I think let's start at the very big Is
there gonna be a lot of singing in this episode? That's from a musical,
isn't it? Yes, it's just the one The Hills Are Alive?
It sounded okay, okay, yeah, great, start at the beginning.
What do you want? I mean? Okay, so I know I posted
on some social media pages about the initial happenings, and I'll just go over
that again really quickly, because it kind of leads into it. So I
got the phone call that my mom probably has had a few weeks left from
the hospice nurse. And there's a lot going on in my life at the
time, but I felt like I should probably get out there. So I
bought a one way ticket and I went to Utah on a Monday morning.
I got there Monday afternoon. I had a recording with me of all my
kids reading books to my mom, like all like the Golden Books, the
Little Red hen Poppy Little Puppy. Yeah, that was my favorite with her.
She reused to read that to me anyway, all of my kids just
reading books to her for like two hours of book reading. I've recorded it
over multiple days. But yeah, so I had that. My mom was
already I don't want to say comatose, but she wasn't responsive at all.
She hadn't been drinking for two days by then, which is definitely a sign
that there's not a lot left, like your body will use up the rest
of your moisture down. She's shutting down, for sure. I mean,
that's that's what happened. So I spent the rest of the day like hours
with my kid's voices playing next to my mom's ear because from what I've been
told, the hearing is the last thing to go as you're dying. And
holding her hand, you know, I did some work on my laptop as
well, and then taking like a sponge with a little bit of water and
you know, putting it on her tongue, uh, coating her mouth with
this, I want to say, lemon stuff. That just helps it not
feel so dried out because she was, you know, dying of thirst,
I guess, and her body was shutting down. So I spent that time
with her. It was quiet, it was nice. All of my brothers
were there. They ended up coming so and my dad. So it was
myself, Mike, Mark, my dad, and then my oldest dick face
brother that we all hate, David, but we pretended to be okay with
him. You know. There were no fighting or anything anyway that happened.
And then the very next morning early my mom passed. So I know people
say sometimes people I sometimes people who are dying, once they have what they
want, like their family together, you know, they go to someone's wedding
or whatever it is, that they kind of let go and I you know,
I like to tell myself that's what happened. I like to tell myself
that my mom finally got to make a choice for herself. H I like
that. Yeah, that's in my heart, that's what happened. So after
she passed, then we had to start making arrangements. If anyone knows my
brother Mark, I know who does listen, But he was a fucking badass.
He took care of everything. A little bit about Mike and Mark.
They are Mormon. They're very Mormon. They're very rulsy and obedient, but
also very nice. So much on point right, right right. We were
staying at my aunt's house and we were kind of talking about what happens next.
I've never been part of a funeral before, like an active participant.
Correct, okay, correct, So no one close to you has died then,
really my grandma, but I was really young. You'd have been a
spectator exactly, exactly, no one that I was a part of them,
So, I you know, I don't know how that works. Talking to
my aunt though, she was telling me, okay, so we need to
dress the body, right, which means you go to the mortuary where they
have your mom's body and you you dress her in clothing ready to be buried
in had the body been washed already? I'm sure the mortician had already done
that, Oh for sure, because I mean we couldn't get it back out
there for the funeral for like three weeks, so they had like keep her
on eyes and pumper full of stuff. Sorry if I feel a little,
if I say a little, I mean it's the truth and also trigger warning
or content warning for death dying and you know, honest talk about how to
prepare a body for burial. Absolutely, yes, So who did her hair?
The people did, which was the the mortuary people, and they did
a great job. Interesting, sometimes the person that's going to die finds a
friend or their hairdresser and asks them to come in and do their hair for
the last time that the mortuary took care of the makeup and hair. Then
they did they did. Look well, yeah, it was amazing. I'll
get to that, but yeah, no, you're good. You're good.
I'm glad that you brought that up because it'll like get my mind going.
So talking to my aunt, she saying, well, we need to go
dress the body, and then she one of my brothers asks, like,
is Shelley allowed to be there. I didn't even thought about that, because
you dress a Mormon body in the Mormon ugly ceremonial temple clothes. If they've
been through the temple endowment, correct, if they're worthy, Let's let's keep
that wording. That's right. So if they've been to the temple and they
died worthy and they paid all their tithing, that would make that makes you
worthy. Yes, I know, I know, I know. You gotta
you got to pay all the way up to the end to get in,
which reminds me my senile dad. He's getting so bad he can't remember jack
shit, but he still calls my brother who's in charge of the estate,
and says, are you sure I'm up to date on my tithing? It's
like, Dad, you're damn near dead. You think you've paid enough already.
And by the way, you're paying tithing on like your retirement, which
means you've already paid taxes on it, or pay tithing on it. You
pay tithing on it when you got paid double tithed. Yes, I can't
imagine that. Saint Peter's up at the pearly gates, you know, with
logging into your account and saying you know your ten cents short? Sorry,
do you have ten cents on you? You're a little ten cents short.
Anybody in lying got a dime they could lend this poor person. I mean,
I guess when you're a spirit, you can't carry shit until you're resurrected.
It doesn't go with you as they can't take it with you, So
then no one would be able to Maybe that person could inspire someone down below
to pay some tithing for of course a spiritual visit visitation that would be a
tender mercy and it'd be fucked up, so you can really and not true.
The reason it would be fucked that would be is it's not that's awesome.
Uh anyway, So when my when when my brother mentioned that, and
my aunt was like, oh, I I don't I don't know, you
know. And I was thinking, I don't know either. I didn't care
at the time, but I just I didn't want to I didn't want to
address it whatever because nobody knew. So a few hours later we go to
the mortuary and we're talking, did your brothers have access to the online version
of the Church Handbook to look at the preparation for deceased bodies. That's the
sure everyone does. I actually looked it up too, And why did you
find out? Well, I looked it up after the fact because I literally
didn't care at the time. I didn't want to fight about it and my
but in my mind I was like, Okay, whatever, this isn't on.
This is a no issue, I you know. So nothing was said
to me, uh in that moment. Then we went to the mortuary to
talk to the funeral director, like we got to make all these plans.
And as we're sitting there, I'm sitting next to Mike and Market. I
love Mike and Mark. I love them, especially Mark. We are so
close. He just I don't know. He's my favorite brother. And I
wish he wasn't a Mormon, a Rusi Mormon, because it would just be
better. Does he drink coke? Yeah, so he's not that. But
but he's like, if the prophet says we do it, that's what it
is. Can I rewind the conversation yet? Five minutes? Yeah, your
mom passed? Yes? Was she alone? Yes? That's right. I
should go back to her passing. Yeah, next to you is the emotions
pillar from my office. Pick that up? Her dying alone? When you
got that news that she had passed. What feelings were you holding in your
body? God? The first feeling because my my my brother Mike came and
knocked on my bedroom door. Were all stick at my aunt's house and it
was five in the morning. Knocks on the door and he's like, just
so you know, Mom just passed away. I was shocked because they'd said
two to three weeks. First I was shocked, Then I was relieved,
and then I was overwhelmed by now what. I was sad, but not
that sad. The sadness came later. I wasn't that sad. I was
grateful that I had been there, and I was like, holy shit,
what if I hadn't come out yesterday, Because it was a you were in
a position where you may or may not have gone. Absolutely. I had
so much shit going on. I was juggling a lot, and I was
debating for an entire day. I was debating, and then finally I was
like, fuck it, I'm just gonna go whatever. So yeah, there
was that Oh my god, I'm so glad I went. There was there
was closeness I felt with my two brothers that were there because I knew we
were going through the same thing, like, now, what this is like
mom died? You know, do you feel you had been grieving your mom's
passing before she passed? Yes, uh hmm, grieving versus disconnecting. Right,
She's been so kind of out of it for so long that the emotional
disconnect. I let that happen. Did I cause it to happen? I
don't know. It felt more comfortable because it was kind of like, she's
not really behaving like my mom anymore, for better or worse whatever. There
were moments of lucidity with her. But you know what's strange. I still
it's like I knew she was dying, but I didn't believe she was dying,
which is why it came as a shock when she did die, because
I don't know if my brain had accepted that, yeah, she's gonna die.
I think in my brain she was just going to be in the memory
care unit forever and I'd go see her every couple months, and which obviously
wasn't going to happen. But that I think that's where my brain was,
Okay, it was okay thinking that was what was happening. Yeah, it's
strange relationship with my mom. We were never really close. But she's like
the kindest, sweetest person in the world who loved everyone, and everyone loved
her, so it's not like we weren't close. And also she was a
bitch, and it's like, eh, well you know, bye bye.
So there's a version of you that's glad that she's gone, relieved that she's
gone. Yes, And there's a version of her that you possibly miss,
yes, version of her that I miss, and me wanting her gone.
That sounds horrible, but she was miserable. She was bedridden, she had
bedswords, She couldn't do anything for herself. She would scream out in pain
a lot. It was not good. She needed to die. She looked
dead for a good couple of weeks. Because we have a camera in there
to monitor my fucking asshole oldest brother David and make sure he's not saying inappropriate
things, which he did. Is like, Mom, they won't let me
feed you. I'm so sorry. I wanted you to have a stomach tube
so you could be with us for six more months and maintain these relationships.
But they won't let me. Mark and Mike and Shelley won't let me.
He's such a Oh I could do four podcasts on that motherfucker. Seriously.
So the morning that she died, got the phone call, so Mike and
Mark and I are like, Okay, I guess we need to go see
her. Mike called back the lady that called and said, please don't take
her body yet, let us all get there and spend some time. So
we went. My dick face brother David was already there, but he was
up with my dad. He had already stopped and visited my mom. I
think because there was I don't know he said, he said he did.
He was upstairs with my dad and Mark and Mike and I just sat with
my mom, held her hand, gave her a kiss. She looked good.
When i'd seen her the day before, she just had her mouth open,
you know, trying to breathe. But after she passed, you know,
the hospice nurse comes in and make sure she's gone, kind of puts
some makeup on the face, got her mouth closed. That sounds really like
that's pretty medical, but yeah, she looked asleep. So we went upstairs.
David was up there. He was already the room with my dad,
and I was thinking, oh, I fucking hope he didn't tell him already.
We do not want David telling anyone anything. Thankfully he had not,
so I took the lead on telling him because I think of all my brothers,
I'm the one who's most don't. I don't know. I just felt
like I should. I don't know why. I just sat next to him
and I told him and told him he had nothing to worry about. We're
taking care of the funeral, because what I know is my dad worries about
everything, every little thing. And so I was like, everything's taken care
of. Would you like to go down to see her? And so we
took him down to see her, and my dad is just so kind of
far gone. He just sat there and held her hand with kind of a
blank stare, and it was it was sad, you know. He took
her her wedding ring off gave it to me, which was powerful. Yeah,
I have that ring. There's a diamond and a wedding band, and
I'm going to get a nice sturdy chain necklace to put the wedding band on
to where and keep the diamonds somewhere else. I don't know. I've processed
that all the way. What I'm going to do, so anyway, he
sat there there with her for a while. Again, that was sad.
It was just sad to see my dad, even though I do have I
mean, everyone who listens knows I have issues with my dad. There's been
things. But still, no matter how I thought he did or didn't treat
my mom, in this moment, my mom was gone and he was sad,
and that made me sad. So then we went to the whole going
back to my aunt's house and finding out that maybe I'm not allowed to do
the thing. And now we're at the funeral home and we're planning the funeral,
and my brother Mark, who I love the most, turned to me
and he says, Shelley, listen, and this is that this is I
don't this has nothing to do with you. I'm sorry I have to bring
this up. And they asked the funeral director. He's like, my sister
is not temple endowed. What are the rules as far as her being able
to dress the body? And I think this The initial reaction was I was
hurt that he would ask that, but then I understood why he would ask
that. But then I was mad that that was even a thing that needed
to be asked, and I had to remind myself this is not about Mark
and Mike. This is about the cult and the brainwashing. Mark and Mike
are good people. Well, it's interesting to think about this. For decades,
the temple clothing, the ceremonial clothing, the robes, sash, the
apron, the whole deal of the slippers, you know, the hat,
the bonnet was all very tightly guarded what it looked like, what are represented.
And then the Internet happened and all those things were leaked and the world
could see what they were. And then the church actually had a big giant
press release and showed the world what they were. So let's not forget that
I have been through the temple. Well you not, notwithstanding the rest of
the world knows what they look like. It's no secret that they're worn,
and it's no secret what they look like. So for you to not be
there, you're not going to the temple, you're not engaging in the complex
handshaking, you're not learning any of the health in the naval bullshit. You're
just there to put clothing on a person. Cause playing a ceremonial Jewish temple
whatever the fuck copied Jewish. Yeah, so the idea that you're seeing things
that you're not supposed to see would be null and void. It was a
moot point. You'd already seen them, you already knew what they were.
The Church has released had information to the world. So I'm very curious,
Actually, what was the hang up with you being there or how did it
resolve? The hang up was it's in the handbook that I shouldn't have and
the handbook rules all depending on your bishop. Of course, it's bishop roulette
every time and again and again, again and again. When Mark brought that
up, the funeral director said, you know, I'm I'm not positive on
that. You're gonna need to check with the bishop. And I just I
stopped everything. I said, listen, Mike and Mark, no offense.
This is not about you at all at all, but this is non negotiable
to me. I will be there. And you know, Mark said,
well, you you know mom was very devout Mormon and we just want to
respect her wishes. And I said, Mom would want me there. Mom
would want me there. Okay, end of discussion. Let's move on,
and my brothers just stopped and we moved on. Good for them for honoring
that. Good for you for you know, making that decision, that holding
that boundary. Yeah, and I've been this super laid back as far as
things went with her dying and all that, but when this hit, it
was like, uh, nope, no, no, no, no,
no boundary. I think Mark and Mike were like, oh shit, Shelley's
mad. Let's let's let's leave this be. So you met or were you
firm? I was firm inside. I was fuming, like this fucking cult.
And my brothers, who are wonderful, feel like they have to ask
someone if their sister is allowed to spend moments with their mom. This is
the deference to authority, This is the difference of the patriarchal order. Totally
so fucked up, so fucked up. So moving on, I did go
with to dress my mom. I went with my two sister in laws and
my two aunts. So not even the men went no, but the men
wanted to keep you out. They're like, we're not going to do it,
but you shouldn't because you're not worthy it, right, So fucked up.
God, it's so fucked up just saying it out loud again and hearing
your response, so fucked up. So I went and my mom looked great.
She was dressed in a temple gown, not all the ceremonial clothing.
And yeah, I've heard that some people have to dress them from like nude.
That would be different. So we get there and I'm there with my
sister in laws, who I love, and my two aunts who I also
love. They're all very liberal, which I'm like, I can you just
leave the fucking church? But they're all strong liberal women, and as we're
standing around, I did have this sense of like female strength in the room.
The funeral director had walked out at that point. He's a nice guy.
And one of the things that hit me is my my aunt Beverly.
She said, well, I think we should probably have a prayer, and
that kind of gave me pause because there's still that thing of like, I
don't know, but I was, you know, whatever, whatever, and
then she said, Shelley, who would you like to say the prayer?
That was beautiful. That was respect from my still Mormon family, who knows
I am so not Mormon, who knows I have an anti Mormon podcast.
The respect of you are your mom's daughter was amazing. I didn't expect that
and it was It kind of made me tear up because I'm not used to
getting that kind of respect within the Mormon world, especially the respect of putting
that sounds horrible, of putting me above others, meaning I was the one
who got to choose who said the prayer. I haven't been broy my whole
fucking life. I haven't been the one who gets to choose ever in Mormonism.
And damn right, it took another woman to recognize that I can an
ex Mormon making that decision X Mormon covered in tattoos. I think I was
wearing it like a pink T shirt that said be happier. So I don't
know, you know, shorts probably had gay vans on. I don't know,
but that was amazing. And so I asked Beverly if she would say
the prayer. She just should. The prayer was beautiful, and then the
funeral director came back in and we put the put the ceremonial clothes on.
Of course, I had to crack a fucking joke as I'm tying the robe.
On one side, I'm like, this is the easiest I've ever had
tying the robe, because you know, it's like anytime we have to tie
in the temple at least when I was through. You have to change all
these Oh you got the ribbon and the bow and the tying, and then
everyone's checking you and you're the scrutiny, and you're like, I don't want
to be last. I don't want to be last. Oh ship, the
ribbon fell out of my hand. I got it. Now there's belcrow.
Yes, I heard too late for me, though, I was always panicking
about the stress we put on each other, the stress on the temple,
remembering the words how does the handshake go? So fucked them? Did I
figure to take my slippers off and put them right back on? God,
you're going to hell if you or no, I'm sorry. The person you're
there by proxy four would be going to hell because you would forget to take
the slippers off. Yeah. So still if you take the left one off
first, so the right one off first, I'm glad you made a joke.
Oh I had to. And the other ladies response absolutely. My sister
in La Heidi, who's my favorite, this Mark's wife, she laughed the
loudest and she's like, I know, oh, so that she broke her
temple covenant loud laughter to avoid loud laughing. You know, it's hard for
people to avoid loud laughter around me. It was a good tension breaker,
good because it is a little I mean, it wasn't weird. I just
had never done it before. I was worried driving there. I didn't know
what she would look like. I just didn't know. I had no idea.
I've never been around a dead body. I've never touched a dead body.
I was worried it would be weird or gross. I don't know.
I had everything. I was scared to see my mom dead so much,
so much so as the way that we did at the funeral director is like,
Okay, I'm going to roll her toward me. You're going to tuck
the apron underneath her whatever. It was all very not awkward. The funeral
director was very kind. It was a beautiful experience to be with the strong
women in the family, because I do consider those ones were there. It's
the strong women, not to diss the others anyway. So we took care
of that. And then I painted my mom's nails because she was always very
loud and bright and colorful, and her favorite color, if you ever asked
her, was sky blue. Pink, sky blue, pink. She was
always saying whacky shit that didn't make sense. What I don't know, that
would be my mom answering in her funky ways. So I had like a
sky blue color and a pink color, and so I just did every other
nail. It's very transgender, right, I should have put her in some
kind of flag. Oh yes, not a queer flag in her casket exactly.
So then I'm just thrilled that she has pink and blue nails. We
all wear wore pink and blue to the funeral, every kid. I know,
I almost wore my pink birket stocks because I'm wearing pink and white or
blue and white right now. You should have. That's really funny pink and
blue mm hm, because that's that. See, And those are the things
about my mom that, despite her being very weak and not kind of standing
up for me, things growing up, things about my mom I love.
So Kimberly, I think it's time we take a short break. Sound good,
cool, be right back, and we're back. So at the end
of dressing her, the funeral director was like, okay, so how this
works is we will have the veil in the coffin kind of like downward it
can't be seen. And then before the casket closes, the daughter look at
me. You will be the one to put the veil on her face.
Oh she said that to you. Yes, wow, that's like the highest
of the things that you can do. But my initial reaction was I'm not
putting a fucking veil on my mom's face. I stopped that thought. I'm
like, this isn't about me. So your mother would have wanted that veil,
she would have wanted to obey everything. Sure, yeah, I almost
No, I didn't almost say it, but man, and that thought crept
up from like my bowels because I hate the veil. I hate that the
women had to cover their faces with the veil in order to do anything like
the high level temple shit. I hated it. I always have, always
will. But I stop myself from saying something because I reminded myself that this
is not about me, like, I will deal with this. I will
emotionally deal with this, but I I want to do for my mom what
she would want. You suspended your ego. Yes, that's a beautiful thing.
Thank you, thank you. And by the way, any listeners,
if you would have made different choices than I did concerning this ex Mormon and
Mormon funeral. I understand. I don't judge anything. This is what I
did, and this is my story. So don't feel like you should have
done something because I did it a certain way or whatever. I don't think
we should judge anyone for what they did in complicated situations like that, because
we all know ex Mormonism, when you have Mormon family, it's so fucking
complicated. It truly is. When you love people who are Mormon and you
hate that they're Mormon, but you love them. I don't know, it's
a mess. You get this right, Kimberly, You have family, right.
My father died two Decembers ago, and I was not told he was
dying until after he was dead. In fact, I didn't know that he
was dying until or that he was dead until one day before the funeral.
So it's pulling some things up in my yeah, emotions and my feelings regarding
my father's death that I was not even involved and in fact, in the
obituary they dead named me. Fuck right. So you so you say that
things with X former Mormons and Mormons and funerals are complicated. That is a
very strong understatement. For sure. For sure, I didn't say yes or
no to the belw was just assumed that I would because the guy was like,
you know, this is what you're gonna do, and just so that
you know, there wouldn't be awkwardness, like how does this? How do
I do this where it's availa blah blah blah. So came back from dressing
the body and then I was sitting next to my brothers, Mike and Mark,
and they were like, how did it go? And I kind of
talked to hunt them and I'm like, okay, so how it works is
before they close the casket, I go up and do the veil thing and
then my brother Mark says, well, you're not allowed to and I go
who said? And he said, well, we had to call the bishop
to find out, you know, what we can and can't do. And
again I want to shake him, be like you're so fucking brainwashed. Mark,
You're such a good guy, and this is making you just do things
that you you wouldn't You wouldn't ever think that your little sister shouldn't be able
to be there for the last moment of the open casket. But the fucking
church, the fucking church. He also said, and we found out you
weren't supposed to go dress the body, and I said, oh, well,
better her and redress her appropriately, right right, go ahead, Tay.
It's clearly my unworthiness destroyed that moment and my mom's fucked, so you
better go redo it with people who are worthy. And I was getting,
you know, those feelings were bubbling up, and I just was like,
I don't care. I don't care. Mark. He goes, well,
I'm just telling you what the bishop said. I said, what's the bishop's
number? So he gave me the bishop's phone number. And I'm pretty ampt
up at this time. So now you are angry. I'm angry. I'm
angry, and I told my brothers, look, I'm not gonna yell at
him. I just need to discuss this with him. And I went outside
and I called him and he wasn't there, and I left a message,
and I'm so glad, so glad that that happened, because about five minutes
later, I'm like, why the fuck am I calling this guy to ask
permission? Why the fuck am I calling this guy to explain why it should
be me? He doesn't know me. He actually doesn't even know my mom.
He's the new bishop in the ward. I am not going to defer
to this motherfucker about a stranger, a stranger to both you and your mother.
Yes, thinking that he needs to call the shots because of a fucking
handbook. This is not my religion. It was my mom's religion. But
I dare fucking tea she would want me to be the one to do that.
She wasn't the type to exclude. She wasn't. And so this time
I'm getting emotional. I'm still kind of hurt that my brothers called to find
out the rules. But again I'm reminding myself their brainwashed, their brainwashed,
don't be mad at them. And I went and grabbed my two sister in
laws, at least in Haidie, and I'm like, can we talk in
the back room. They came back there and I told him what had happened,
and Heidi, my hugest support, goes, oh, you're doing the
veil. I'll go up there with you and like, fight off anyone who
tries to tell you you can't this, this is not no. I will
go tell Mark and Mike right now you need to butt out. This is
gonna happen it'll be messy if something happens there at the funeral. And again,
Ah, the experience to feel the support of a Mormon supporting breaking the
rules because love comes first, and I feel like you just don't get that
a lot, you know. And maybe it was because she was a woman,
and maybe it was because she understands like the relationship of a mother and
daughter, and maybe it was because she understands like, I'm the only daughter.
This is my right, this is my right to do this. I
don't care what religion you are. Don't dismiss me from my right to be
there with my mom at the very very end, just because it's some fucking
man saying the handbook says this thing. You don't this guy doesn't understand emotions,
he doesn't get connections clearly, or he's just so fucking trying to climb
the ladder that he's going to do everything the book. By the way,
this guy is maybe thirty five years old tops tops. When I saw at
the funeral, I'm like, oh, this is the fucker that thinks that
he owns the world. So having that and at least supported me too.
But Heidi was like, I will tackle anyone who tries to get in the
way of this, anyone you're doing the bail and I just cried. I
again, just feeling supported by someone who's on the other side. They're Mormon,
but they're supporting me. I didn't expect that I would need that support.
I didn't know all the fucking rules, but to have that was just
okay, all right, I can do this, you know. So we're
recording this fairly recently after these events. I was there last week. So
what day how many days ago? Was this Friday? On Friday? Is
one week? Seven days ago? Yeah, this is fresh, Oh so
fresh. And I'll probably cry and I'm gonna swear a lot, and you
know this, this is fresh. This was a hugely impactful experience for me.
By the way, I'm a big fan of Heidi never matter, probably
never will. I'm also a big fan of any woman that will push back
against male patriarchy in the church. Yes, because it's not easy, whether
they're in it or whether they're out of it. And I think that you're
going to start to see more and more of that happening. I agree,
I carry help, but wonder five years ago, ten years ago, certainly
twenty years ago. This would never have happened. No, no, no,
Now the ex MOO would not have even been like, it wouldn't even
been a consideration. No, no, I think that's changed. Okay,
so moving on the story. I felt more comfortable at that point. And
then the next morning, Oh, I told my brothers afterwards. I'm like,
hey, I'm doing the bill and they were like, oh, okay,
they didn't want to fuck with me. They didn't want to. And
then the next morning I woke up. This was like the day before the
funeral. I think in Mark and not Heidie Mark, and at least we're
sitting at there. At least is Mike's wife. She's definitely more strict on
the Mormonism. Heidi is Mark's wife, who was like, I love you
before I love any religion. So I'm sitting there with Mark and I said,
listen, I just kind of have to get this off my chest.
This is the problem I have with religion, is that this person that I
don't know is going to tell me that I can't be with my mom,
you know, over things that I don't believe in, over things that I
know she would want me to do. And he's like, of course,
look, I just wanted to respect her wishes, you know, and I
get that, but those weren't her wishes. I'm telling you, as the
daughter and as the conversations that we've had, that was not her wishes for
me to be excluded from anything ever. And then my sister in law,
Atlise, who is more strict, She's like, well, you know,
when I go to Israel or whatever, their mosques and things that I can't
visit because I'm a woman. I said, it's different. It's different.
That is a whole different religion. This is not your family. It's not
the same thing. And she just kind of kept having to come up with
reasons as like why we should respa. It's like, you should respect this,
and I'm like, no, I respect my mom. So she's trying
to pull a very common logical fallacy that we call the false equivalence. Explain
that false equivalent. Oh well, I happen to have my logical fallacies deck
of cards here with shit. Okay, should take a second and find the
one that says the false equivalence and read it on read it for the podcast,
and we should play some strip poker as we do. So, oh,
shirt's coming off, No bras today podcast means no bras. Oh,
well, then I'm going to be naked a whole lot sooner than you.
Kimberly is shuffling the deck and you know, and I hate that shit where
it's like, well, well, it's also it's also a confirmation bias,
oh for sure. And you know, I'm gonna keep talking a while.
You look, I do view this differently than I'm not allowed to go in
the temple for a temple wedding because yeah, that's stupid, right, but
the whole with my mom, and it's not like it's in a sacred place
where you have to have a secret paths to get in. It's just just
different. And some people that I've talked to who don't truly get Mormonism,
you know, they're they're kind of like, well, well, fuck it,
you shouldn't. You shouldn't do any of that stuff. Fuck that religion,
you know, but not understanding the severe juggling that has to happen between
hating the religion and loving some of the people in it. To find the
card, apparently my decad Cards doesn't have it in here. Well, however,
what it does have instead are three other logical fallacies that are that are
important to look at. One is an appeal to emotion, which means manipulating
an emotional response in place of a valid or compelling argument. The appeal to
authority, using the opinion or position of an authority, figure, or institution
of authority in place of an actual argument yep. Also the confirmation bias.
You favor things that confirm your existing beliefs. Yes, so these people are
engaging in all kinds of logical fallacies, including the false equivalence, which means,
basically, in Layman's terms, apples two oranges. I get where she
was coming from saying, but it's no, it's just it's it's designed to
keep perfrom feeling uncomfortable about what's going on. Right about that, she exactly.
I think if Heidi hadn't ha been there first and said, oh,
yeah, you're doing the veil, Hell yeah, that it might have been
a little bit more of a struggle with the lease. She probably would have
said, like, you know, do what you want to do, but
I wouldn't have felt the extreme support like I did from hiding. Anyway,
that conversation ended, I just was like, look, I want to get
this on my chest. I cried, Mark gave me a hug, you
know, because again Mark's a sweetheart. Why does he have to be Mormon?
Fuck? Luck of the draw. Right. So then we spent that
night, me and all the grandkids painting our fingernails. Ever, all the
pink and the blue, all of us, all the bright pink. I
should have left it on for this. My boys had pink and blue ties.
This is like a serious trans feral at some point, Oh, for
sure, for sure. Wow, I know, I know, you know.
It was amazing that we can be clearly, that's not what your mother
is anticipating. Everyone's going to understand. They're going to look at the pink
and blue and think about Grandma, of course, but there's like an under
there's a serious queer undercurrent of trans inclusion in this c My mom was so
inclusive and I'll get to that part. But yeah, yes, that was
my mom, and she was loud, and the whole sky blue pink,
whatever fuck that is. We're gonna do it all up. One thing.
Okay, let's go back to Mark for a second, my brother Mark.
We have in the family, specifically one queer person that goes by they them
and is now named Granite. Oh, I love that great and matching,
the perfect non binary name. I know, they go they say it matches
the darkness of my heart. They're so funny. They're so funny, they're
hilarious. So Granted's mom message you mean was like the ibetuary looks nice.
I'm not surprised that they dead named Granted. It is what it is.
And I said, oh shit, let me talk to Mark. So Mark,
who's the rule follower? I said, Mark, listen. Andrea was
like kind of we're you know, kind of mentioned and Mark go's, oh
crap, I'll change that right now. Oh wow, Right, so this
is who Mark is. I don't think Mike would have changed it. A
right, good job Mark, bravo. Yeah. So he you know,
emailed it and got that change. So, yeah, your family fixed something
that my family fucked up. See, good job family, Yeah, yeah,
good job. My family's better than yours. Truly. Well you have
a relationship with your family, that's true. You didn't. I still still
don't. Yeah, fuck it sucks. So he changed that. That made
me feel good because Mark's come a long way. He used to be very
you know, anti, like that's gross. You know, I'm not going
to call them by their name, but he has come such a long way.
His daughter, Courtney, who is my daughter Jenevie's age, she chose
to wear a bright pink suit to the funeral with one of the boys striped
ties. So when she decided that Mark put it out there for everyone.
He's like, Okay, how many ties do I do I need to get?
You know, I don't care who wants to wear a tie, Whereas
probably two years ago he would have said boys wear ties, girls wear whatever.
Clearing it up. Wearing it up, by the way, Courtney was
just looks so fucking fabulous. It was like it was it who was like
a hot pink suit, shiny like you'd see on soul train. I mean
great, And she wore my mom's sky blue colored crocs with fucking love Courtney
love Courtney, well, Courtney hear this, Probably not, I don't know,
but I fucking love her and she knows I love her. Anyway,
So when we were talking about who's gonna be the pall Bears, right,
I mean, there's just so much tradition that had to be broken down in
this, and Mark says, well, let's you know the grandsons, and
I go, well, why does it just have to be the grandsons.
He goes, uh, I don't know. I know, tradition, tradition,
tradition, bucking the system. And the fact that it was Mark who
was doing this. I think that's why I was able to get in there,
buck the system, because I don't know if Mike would have maybe,
I don't know. So I said, listen, I don't want this to
be a boys do this, girls do this thing. I don't like that.
I don't think mom was like that. And he was like, cool,
great, how do you want to do it? And I said,
well, why don't we just do like the oldest two kids of each family,
just so you know, I don't know, I have to pick something.
But then I said, why can't they all do it? Why can't
we somehow find a way to include all of them? So we talked to
the funeral director and he's like, yeah, half of them can do it
at the funeral. The other half can carry her from the hearse to the
burial site. Fuck yeah. So we picked half boys and half girls for
each movement of her casket. And I'm just feeling better and better about this.
I love that the girls and the women are so inclusive or inclusive and
included in this process. Yes, yes, absolutely, this is how traditions
change. Yes, yes, because I wasn't going to have a traditional The
strong women were not going to have it traditional. The grandkids who were girls,
they were not going to have it traditional. I don't think they even
recognized it. They were breaking them all traditional exactly. They wouldn't have made
sense to them to not be a pallbearer. They're just like, I want
to be on the left side of Grandma on the back. You know,
there was no because kids these days are fucking awesome. They claim they're on
space. Yes, yes, I love me some gen z. I don't
care how much the older generations complain about them. I love gen z.
They will save us. Oh absolutely absolutely. So planned that part. Then
we had to plan who's speaking at the funeral, and one of the big
obstacles was we can't have David, the oldest piece of shit. We can't
have him speaking because he is horrible. He will talk about how much we
didn't let him take care of mind. It's all bullshit, it's all He's
a narcissist, and I will say that out loud. Well, let's be
real the funeral. At this point, once the speaking starts, it's not
so much a funeral for the person, but it's a propaganda and proselytizing effort
by the church exactly. And I didn't want that. So who makes a
decisions about who's going to speak? Again, that thirty five year old rookie
bishop. Nope, who made the decisions? The three of us did together
good. We decided that Mark would speak, We decided that I would speak,
and we decided that we would allow Dick face David to do the prayer
just before they close the coffin because there's less people in there. It's like
damage control, you know. And that Mike, because you have to be
a worthy priestheth holder, will do the dedicatory prayer at the grave. So
on the way to the funeral, I'm realizing that none of my kids have
seen a dead body, and so I was explaining to them, Okay,
so there's there's part of the funeral beforehand where there's a viewing and you were
you can go into the room where Grandma is laying there in an open casket,
and you can see her and you can touch her and say goodbye.
None of you have to do that. If you don't want if that seems
weird, if that seems uncomfortable, you don't have to do that. And
I told them, also, I saw Grandma like two days ago, and
she looks really good. She doesn't look creepy or weird. She doesn't look
like a zombies. We started like cracking jokes about zombie Grandma just to kind
of, you know, I do that when things a little heavy eye joke
and the kids laugh and then we're all good again. So I didn't know
who was going to do what. We get to the funeral and they all
want to go see Grandma. We all go in there. There's lots of
people. My kids were totally fine with seeing her. They cried. My
kids are sweethearts. They adored Grandma Jay. And one thing that I was
so happy about was I saw so much of my fan that I hadn't seen
in probably twenty twenty five years. They were so happy to see me,
and I didn't I didn't know what was gonna be. Like, I'm like,
I don't know. They know I've left the church, they know I
have a podcast, Like, they know I've got tattoos, they know I'm
angry. Or was angry, but they were so happy to see me,
and the hugs they gave me were like for real long hugs, and that
felt good again to be Uh, I felt accepted and I didn't know.
I don't know. Did I need that acceptance? I don't know. I
think I was fine without it, but feeling it felt like it felt good.
And so there's this juggle that's internal, like am I still looking for
approval? Am I still needing this? Or did it just feel good when
it happened? Is that a rhetorical question? Do you need that approval?
I don't know. I don't I don't feel like I do. But it
does feel really good when I get it, you know, I don't know.
Both of those can be true. Okay, I didn't think I needed
it. I don't know. I think if there were some people that didn't
approve of me, I think I just kind of be like, there's they
suck and move on. If everyone didn't improve me, that would probably hurt.
I don't know. I don't know. It was just good that it
was that way. My dad was there. He just kind of sat in
a corner, glazed over eyes sad when people would come in and they'd say,
where's your dad, I'd say, well, he's over there, but
he can't remember people's names. If you could please introduce yourself, because he
hates that he can't remember people's names. I felt bad for him. He
just I mean, I don't like to see anyone sad, but I just
felt for him because he just looked so gone, so checked out. Anyway,
all of that that stuff happened, and then it was time for the
veil. And I'm a little nervous because my idiot brother David. He went
up and said the prayer and it was very weird because he's very weird,
and then he sat back down. I knew it was time, and so
I walked the fuck up there. There's a funeral director and some random dude
and then the bishop next to him. And I walked up there. Didn't
even look. The bishop didn't because I don't care about him him. He's
zero to me, nothing, he says, he's nothing to me. And
I walked up the director and I'm like, I'm ready to do the veil.
He said, okay, so he lifted up her head. I said,
it behind her head right and kind of on the top, and he
said, you can either put it over her face or near the sides.
I don't know if that's new, I don't know, but like my heart
fucking jumped for joy as I put it on the sides of her, on
the fucking sides. Why is that important? She should never have her face
covered ever. She's beautiful, and I know she would have been good with
that. I know she would have because my mom, she didn't hide herself
with her wacky z any crazy like she was an out person. So I
did that and I kind of leaned into the casket to kiss her on the
cheek and hugger, and all of my emotion finally hit. I don't think
it really really had before then, and it was I felt like it was
me and my mom. That's it, empty room, me and my mom.
I did that last, and I know it's fucking religious, but I
didn't care. I did that last, honoring of her in her way.
Doesn't matter if I thought it was bullshit, I don't care. I did
this for her. I was her hands doing this. That's quite a gift
you gave her. I agree, I completely agree. And again some people
won't agree that I even went, and that's fine, but this was my
choice. This was my juggle with my anger, with my trauma, with
my mom. It was my juggle my decisions. We might need to take
one more break here, so let's give it a go. Be right back
and we're back. I cried, like ugly cry for probably two solid minutes,
which doesn't seem like a long time, but when you're a silent room
full of people, it's a long time. I cried and I cried and
I wailed and I sniffed in all of my stress, all of my weird
like disconnect from my mom because she was getting old and it was hard.
Did anyone come up and join you to comfort you? My kids came up
behind me while you were crying. Yeah, my kids are fucking amazing,
Kimberly them you. I just feel like a unit with them, Like,
no matter what happens in my life, I have seven cheerleaders who want me
to be happy, who love me. I have seven kids that there's eight
of us that are will always be bonded together, always support each other.
It was beautiful, But probably the most emotional part after that was I said
my goodbyes. They closed the casket. I'm still crying. My brother Mark
comes up to me and hugs me, and he's like, it's just a
hat. You get that. It's a pretty shitty hat. It's a pretty
shitty hat. But he's just yeah, and he's like to me, that
was him saying you should have done this, this was your right, and
it's just a fucking hat anyway. You know. I don't think my brother
Mark has ever said anything to me where I felt that understood, that accepted,
and that loved by him, because again, he's rulesy as shit,
and he saw and agreed with the importance of me doing this thing that I
wasn't quote unquote worthy to do. Ah. Yeah, what are you feeling
in your body right now? Tension, release, gratefulness for my family,
no matter where they are. Not my brother David, he can fuck off,
but grateful for my family who loves me regardless. And I know we
complain when people are like, well, I still love you, even though
I mean that seems like a diss but I felt that I appreciated. I
love that they still still love me. And I know that sounds awful because
people should love people regardless, but I understand the cult that they're in.
I understand that I should be shunned. I understand that I shouldn't have been
allowed to touch anything wholly according to them. I get it. And my
family looked past those rules and was like, yeah, you're good, you
should be here. Could have been the most impactful thing of the entire funeral
was that it was. I'll take that forever with me. I can still
picture my mom laying there, beautiful with the veil on the sides, not
on her face, and just the silence in there as I'm crying, and
my brother saying what he said, and then my kids hugging me so tight
like we were all in a certain Me and my kids, my fucking kids
who give me life, hugging in a circle and crying over Grandma. It
was. I think it's like a milestone in life. And I'm so lucky
that for me it was beautiful, because it wasn't beautiful for you when your
dad passed. You didn't have that. Well. I don't want to make
it about me, so I apologize for sharing that earlier, but no,
no, I want to make sure pivot back to you and the incredible juxtaposition
of these sacred circles that involved temple robes. Yeah, the one that you
had with your children next to your mother's casket. It sounds to me as
if it was more authentic. It was more inclusive, it was more loving,
it was more genuine than any of the circles you'd been in in the
past. And the temple one hundred percent. One hundred percent because any of
the temple ceremonies who I am now, I wouldn't even be like the fuck
in there so talk about not being inclusive. But with the funeral, because
I stood up for myself, because I stood up against the patriarchy, I
could have just been like, oh, the bishop said no, okay,
well maybe someone else can do it. I don't want to make waves.
Yes, this is their religion. I don't want to make waves. But
it was like you fuck you. And I had to be far enough away
to be like, no, for real, fuck you dude. But I
still called him first. I called him first, and I was gonna explain,
like why I should do this and why do you think I can't?
And I'm so glad he wasn't there to answer the phone because the next thing
was like fuck you, No, you are nothing to me. You're not
going to be between me and my mom. What do you think would have
happened had he answered the phone, Oh god, I would have started nice.
I would have asked why. I'm sure it would have come down to
a conversation about the handbook, because at this point I didn't know it was
there was this strict rule in the handbook. I don't know. I don't
know. In the end, who's an authority? Did you ultimately appeal to
fucking mine right? The authority as the only daughter, the only daughter to
a mother. You know, if there had been more daughters, maybe it
would have been easier to be like, yeah, you should probably do this,
but no, no, no, no, no, no no no.
I am a woman, I'm a strong woman. I'm her daughter.
This is my right. No fucking dude is going to come over and do
this because I'm not worthy. And you know, conversation I had with someone
who was like, I wouldn't even have done the veil. Fuck that.
Why did you just say no, this is stupid, I'm not going to
do it. And I said, and this person didn't understand, but I
said, because I wasn't going to allow someone else to fucking do this.
I don't care if I believed it or not. No, one's taking my
place in this m and hmm. Before I went up to do the casket
and the veil, I took my shirt off. I had a shirt on
underneath. I'm sorry. I had a long sleeved topless veil placement. I
love this might have said something, you know, but to clear it up,
I had a long sleeve shirt on the sky blue and then a pink
shirt underneath. I took the long sleeve shirt off almost as I don't know,
it's weird, just like I wanted to stand out. I wanted to
show my strength, like I'm doing this, I'm with my mom. I'm
putting the veil. I have tattoos everywhere to represent what. So this is
my family right this, The tattoo on my arm is all of my children.
And that was why there's fucking seven of them. That's about your tattoos.
That's why I'm asking, Yeah, this is what matters to me.
And I wasn't trying to make it about me. I was trying to make
it about fuck. How do I word this? What was important to you
in that moment to be said? What message did you want to make sure
you got? Your mom got the people in the audience guy. But when
I take my shirt off, my outer shirt, it was me standing up
against things. It was also me showing just because I have left this fucking
cult doesn't mean I don't want to be part of my mom. Doesn't mean
that I feel like I shouldn't. And I also wanted to show that just
because I left the cult doesn't mean I can't be respectful. I'm putting the
fucking bail on. I just wanted them to know. I wanted them to
see that I was worthy to do this with my mom. Not worthy to
go in the tamp I don't give a fuck about this. Not worthy as
far as church terms, but me as her daughter and her my mother,
I was fucking worthy, tattoos and all to go up there and spend that
time with my mom before they closed the casket, and that felt good.
Yeah, it's in there because the second half will be the actual funeral service
itself, because there's a lot there. Because I spoke way, I guess
to wrap up this episode, kind of cliffhanger, it is will they have
the funeral or not? Of course we have the funeral. His mom still
in the casket at the the church. Did she make it in the ground
yet, did we pull a weekend at Bernie's? Is she strapped the head
of my car? I don't know. Do I have a stick making her
handwaves? So? No, no, she's dead. What do you think
we did? I vote for a weekend at Bernie's? Fuck? Yeah,
And my mom would have too here, Indeed, she would have loved to
travel around the beach. Yes, sunglasses and a hat. Absolutely national Lampoon's
vacation with when grammatized on the roof? Isn't she dond like like a rocking
chair on the roof or some shit? Oh? I love it. I
love give me a combo Bernie's Lampoon, do whatever we want. I'm gonna
start the script now and be short filmed because I don't have a lot of
time these days. But you can just get to the point where she dies,
and then she travels around like an illustrated novel, a children's book,
something like Travel with Dead Grandma or Dead Grandma's Adventures. Dead Grandmas are people
too. Oh, I love it seriousness mixed with some comedic relief. You
have to, And that was how my my talk was at the funeral.
I'm like you, I can't do all serious, because, as my therapist
says I, she says, I mask my sorrow with jokes, but I
feel like it kind of helps me too, right. So, speaking of
that, I happen to bring a book called What's Your Grief? Not What's
Your Beef? No, What's Your Grief? Lists to help you through any
loss. I actually recently purchased this book. I found that it's written by
a therapist here in the DC area. I like to give this to my
clients that have experienced or are experiencing grief, and I don't, you know,
let them read through the whole thing. I just asked them to,
you know, play this game where you open it to a page and see
what comes up. I like that, Do you want to play? Oh
shit, yes, yes, what's your Grief? This is like picking tarot.
It's like grief tarot. Kind of my joking mind says. I want
to open to page sixty nine. Oh okay, why is that an important
number? I don't know, it's funny, but all my kids think it's
funny too, and they don't even know what it is. I mean,
you said sixty nine on my cast a year ten. Uh So this one
says, what's your grief secret? Is that what you want me to read?
Look on those two pages and what are you finding that's resonant with you?
Let's see, when we keep a secret, that secret is actually helping
us, maybe haunting us, maybe inviting us to reconcile with part of our
past we're hiding from, maybe keeping us from having intimate relationships with others or
ourselves. What secrets are being kept in that funeral that you were unwilling to
keep on keeping? You know, I don't think I had any, but
there was definitely didn't have any. But in that room. Yeah, there
are some big secrets that you said. No more right, And that's what
I mean. I wasn't keeping a secret, but I sure shit showed it.
Maybe the secret I was keeping was that I would go along with things.
And even if people know that I'm rebellious, I don't think they thought
that I would go against the bishop in the church and the handbook. No,
I don't know if all of them knew about the handbook. Shit,
I bet some of them did so, sure as shoot and bet all the
men did so. Secrets out. I am not bowing down to authority,
period. Fuck you. End of story. I will do what I want
and what I need to and what my right is according to me, not
some fucking patriarch religion. Things are coming to my ted talk. I'm glad
I'm here. So next time you and I record, we will undoubtedly talk
about the the actually you know, the speech that you gave. Yes,
it's called a talk, Kimberly, Well, the talk that you gave.
That's right, I forgot how quickly I've forgotten. I want to wager that
you swore in it at least one, maybe twice, that you dropped like
a swear word in your speech at least twice. But don't tell me.
Now, let's leave the Let's let the maybe discussion topic for the LDL groups.
How many times does Shelley swear in her talk at her mother's funeral?
My bet is at least twice? Okay. Also, the question is how
many times did Shelley make a comment that no one would understand except for me
and Mike and Mark and David because it was a dig at fucking David.
Very jokes inside jokes, inside jokes that are digs at that motherfucker who has
caused so many problems. So there's two cliffhanger questions, yes, swear count
and dig count. Yes, okay, yes, all right, this has
been awesome. Well there are you going, Kimberly. What have you been
up to? Let's hear it. Oh gosh, well you know what I've
been up to. Because we since move here to DC, you and I
have hung out quite a bit. I know, I love you. I'm
so glad you're here. Well, I am too, and I'm so glad
Jess has kept you in her life because she's fucking amazing. Well she has
to keep me in her life. She has no choice. Good something like
being controlling girlfriend. Oh I love a good girlfriend. I said your room
and she says, oh, okay, coming, And I say, am
I come? Sorry, not yet, give me a minute, go to
your room and clean up for toys. And she's like, oh, okay,
it sounds kind of hot. Which toys? The ones in the top
closet, the bottom closet, the bottom closet. But I love Jess.
She's been great. What am I being up to? So got a place
here in d C with Jess. Our partnership is very committed. We're very
much in love. All of our challenges, you know about our lives.
Notwithstanding you meet someone later on in life with children and with the messy you
know, situation all the way around both her and me. I'm not talking
about her exclusively. We both bring trom to the table. So thank god
we're both therapists, right, and we can work through our challenges together and
recommit to each other almost daily. Actually, it's really really beautiful. Do
you find not to interrupted? Do you find that in your discussions or arguments
whatever you want to call them, that their discussions okay, yeah, loud
discussions now argue of course, in your loud discussions, do you find that
you recognize like, oh my gosh, I'm doing this behavior? This either
I do. You'll call the other one out when they're doing that behavior.
We certainly do. Somehow it stings more for me when Jess calls my behavior
out shit because I don't want to be told what's up? No, because
I certainly have the answers to my life totally figured out. Duh. So
when Jess calls them out like stings even more. Good for you, Jess,
Well, that's right, this is what I need. This is what
a healthy relationship has is caring, committed, you know, support and calling
people out on their bullshit. If you don't call it out festers, and
then their resentment, and then we're keeping secrets, and then we're back to
grief. You're right, you're right. She owns the False Church Wellness Center
and the amazing group of therapists. Here we're in her office actually today,
So thank you Jess for letting us steal it. Yep. And then she
and I have purchased twenty six acres out in the wine country of Loudon County,
so fun out there by the way west of DC about an hour and
we have a wellness retreat that we call wine Very Wellness, and it's called
Wineberry Wellness because we have wineberry vines all over the entire properties, your harptype
property, and wineberries taste better than raspberries. The season is very short,
so there it's like fireworks. They come very quickly. They're good and sweet
when you get them, and then they're all of a sudden they're gone.
You made jam or anything with them, you just make jam, wine,
wine beer. We just put them, you know, eat them out of
the bowl. You can put them on strawberries. They're super super yummy.
I foresee an annual Queer wineberry picking festival. Count me in for DC locals.
Yes, need some wineberries on Queer property, but we have there's a
niche for everything, absolutely, so we do. We do a treats out
there. We do couples counseling, we do groups, small groups, larger
groups, day day things. We're in the middle of amazing wineries. One
of the best benefits of being an ex Mormon now is that my best friends
are our best friends down the road another couple who are lesbians. They own
a winery. Fuck. Yeah, and we've learned how to make wine.
So yes, we've learned. We've learned. We're learning the fermentation process,
the harvesting process, the bottling process, the tasting process. I'm about that
taste. I'm learning about wine in ways that certainly Mormonism would never have allowed
me to. So that's been lovey. We have wine in the sacrament.
When you're a Mormon, you know, when you're drunk off of way,
I would guarantee you there's not a liquor grape juice in this in the church
on any given Sunday except for maybe sippy cups, maybe maybe when someone else
brings in. Yeah. So we have the Wellness Retreat out there, and
she has the Wellness Center here in Falls Church. And I am just thrilled
that my life is full of joy and happiness and love with a lovely partner.
And I'm thrilled that professionally, the things that I'm doing with my clients
is so incredibly rewarding watching them grow and shift and change. Has been different
population that I'm working with here. Okay, lots of queer and trans people,
certainly, but lots of families, lots of couples, seeing lots and
lots and lots of narcissistic abuse, recovery from the narcissist or from the from
the partners victims. Do you have narcissists come in and say I'm a narcissist,
come in with their partner, and through the counseling that I give them,
their partner realizes that their other person is a narcissist. Seeing some ex
Mormons, which is kind of cool. Have some ex Jewish people, have
some X Evangelicals. Nice. So the ven diagram of my life does overlap
tremendously with a lot of my clients, but in some cases not very much,
which is also nice. But life for me. Of course, I
miss Utah, the good parts of Utah. My kids are still there,
whom I love, even though literally don't have a relationship with either of them
or my extended family. But you know that's temporary, at least as far
as I anticipate, you know, still looking forward rejoining with them. But
in the meantime, you know, after picking up the cards of life,
the hand that I've been dealt is still pretty damn good. I love it.
Yeah, I love it. Thank you for asking, of course.
Yeah, I love like I don't know. I love to see all my
people happy. You and I Kimberly, we kind of we we we don't
go back forever, but we go back a lot of years always, and
to just see my friend by the way, he forced it on me,
And that's fine. That those kind of people I love, because then I
feel like I'm in high demand. It kind of feeds the ego love to
be chased. Kidding c h A s ed Yeah, not c h A
S t E. I was that kind of chas for way too long.
Anyway. I love seeing like your life blossoming. Thank you. It's it's
phenomenal. It's fun to be part of is there if people need to get
a hold of the Wellness Center to like talk about therapy or anything. A
website? What do you? Is there? Something? Wow? The wellness
Center. I think it's false. Church Wellness dot Com happened to be actually
looking at a brochure that says false church Wellness dot com. And if they
want to learn more about the Winebery Wellness, they can follow us on Instagram
at Wineberry Wellness. That's the tag. I love it. I love it.
Y'all do good things. We're trying, and we're doing you do right,
like Yoda says, do or not, there's try. I guess we'll
wrap it up right there. I don't know. Steer clear of cults,
we say that, yeah, if you can, if you can, clearly
I couldn't. I mean the cult, but it was just hard to steer
clear of it when you're born into it, yes, and your family's still
in it. But there's a way I have I whatever we're going over time
here, but I have come to a happy spot. After the funeral,
I'm realized I'm at my happy spot. Who what I can do as far
as the cult is concerned. And I wasn't quite there yet because I didn't
know I was. I didn't know this ship was going to go down with
can I. I'm not supposed to touch sacred shit according to them, So
yeah, I'll talk more about that on the next episode we cover with this,
But thank you for listening to me. Sure, all right, folks,
that's it. Today's takeaway from me for this podcast was the following message,
It's just a hat, just a fucking hat, that's all, folks.
See you next time.