1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,880 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:46,039 --> 00:00:52,880 I'm Bill Thomas. We're back from crime Con. And it was smashing. 11 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,840 Is that a pretty fair adjective or can we come up with something better? 12 00:00:57,159 --> 00:01:00,920 I like smashing, smashing works. I felt like think it was spectacular. 13 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,640 We're going with S words today. Yeah, it was sensational. Absolutely, 14 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,560 there's another S word. Yes, absolutely. I can't think of a better 15 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,400 crime con. And we have been to you've been to all of them, 16 00:01:15,519 --> 00:01:21,519 but the first one, I believe, so yes, I Mass and Indianapolis, 17 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,640 Nashville on forward. That is Nashville number one. This was our second 18 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:32,439 visit in Nashville, and I was at all of them except for Indianapolis, 19 00:01:32,719 --> 00:01:36,840 and then I could not make it to Austin during the pandemic. You went 20 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,719 because you were speaking, but I was not able to make that one due 21 00:01:40,719 --> 00:01:44,879 to I believe it was online school that we were doing at that point, 22 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,519 and I couldn't do online school from a hotel. This is I think that 23 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:53,799 they are raising the bar every single year higher and higher, and they knocked 24 00:01:53,799 --> 00:01:59,760 it out of the park with this one. I am so enthused by the 25 00:01:59,799 --> 00:02:04,159 one wonderful days that we had, but oh my god, I'm so tired 26 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,400 me too, and leave them back for what a week? Yeah, it's 27 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,840 and it was. My journey to crime Gon was a little different than yours. 28 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,599 One was because I ended up having to drive all of our stuff. 29 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,520 I had two days of driving on the front end and then two days of 30 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:24,560 driving on the back end as well, in addition to the three crime Con 31 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:31,800 days. It's a long haul from Virginia to Tennessee. And yet I don't 32 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,120 think it would have made sense for you to try to do it all in 33 00:02:35,159 --> 00:02:39,599 one day, how many hours driving altogether? On Wednesday, I left school 34 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:44,199 and came home, picked up my luggage and all of our stuff, our 35 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,840 banners, our signage, everything else, packed it in the car, and 36 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:53,400 I went from four pm until nine thirty pm, just like going across the 37 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,280 state of Virginia. I stopped in Bristol, Virginia, which is right on 38 00:02:55,319 --> 00:03:00,159 the border with Tennessee. So that was six hours of driving that first day, 39 00:03:00,319 --> 00:03:04,840 right, And that's after a full day at school and teaching and the 40 00:03:04,879 --> 00:03:07,520 whole thing. So yes, I was already reeling. Unless the two of 41 00:03:07,599 --> 00:03:12,520 us were in the car together and we could spell one another or something like 42 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:15,520 that, I can't see how you could have gone much further in one day 43 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:22,080 between work and a six hour drive, Yeah, exactly. And so I 44 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:28,120 stayed overnight in Bristol, Virginia, a just very welcoming, wonderful Marriott. 45 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,759 I did the remaining five hours the next day, and that's five hours with 46 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:36,639 a time change too, and so that was a lot of driving. The 47 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,800 Sunday that we left crime Con, I just reversed it and left right after 48 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,520 crime Cons. I saw you off, and then I packed up my stuff, 49 00:03:44,599 --> 00:03:47,360 packed up the car with the help of the very very nice people at 50 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,240 the Gaylord, and then did the same thing, drove until I got to 51 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,919 Bristol. So that was six hours after crime Con on Sunday. And then 52 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,479 the next day I took a little bit longer to go home. I actually 53 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,919 stopped at a national park and or rather a state park, actually got out 54 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:09,520 in nature because when you're inside the resort you don't get sunshine and fresh air, 55 00:04:10,479 --> 00:04:13,840 and so I hadn't seen the sun for three days, almost four days 56 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,439 actually, since I got there on Thursday, and I was like, I'm 57 00:04:15,439 --> 00:04:20,120 not leaving again until Sunday. So and you scared me a little bit. 58 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:27,319 When we were departing on Sunday, you were making some noises about maybe trying 59 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:32,160 to push through all the way to Williamsburg, which I was not in support 60 00:04:32,199 --> 00:04:38,480 of because I was worried about you. We had three exhausting but amazing days, 61 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,040 which we'll get into in a second, but you were talking about, 62 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:43,399 oh, I may try to just push on through, and I'm like, 63 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,639 please don't do that. No, it would have been a bad idea. 64 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,519 I had originally booked at the gaylord with the thought that, oh, when 65 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,480 crime CON's done on Sunday, I'll just relax the rest of the day and 66 00:04:55,519 --> 00:04:58,959 then I'll do the whole drive all the way straight through on Monday and go 67 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,560 back to school on Tuesday. And I realized by the time I saw you 68 00:05:01,639 --> 00:05:04,920 off, I don't know if you noticed or not, I was so jangled 69 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:10,839 from not enough to eat, too much to do, so much over stimulation. 70 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:14,240 My hands were actually shaking by the time I left, and I was 71 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:15,560 like, Okay, I just need to go ahead and get on the road. 72 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,240 I can't do this all on one day. You're a grown up. 73 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,800 I'm not here to tell you what to do. But that scared me a 74 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,800 little bit. I was glad when you told me that you were going to 75 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:28,439 break it up, just like you had done on the way down there, 76 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,800 because it's a long haul. It really is, especially with a car load 77 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,800 full of stuff, and it's when you don't have someone else in the car. 78 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,800 You either end up talking to yourself a lot, or I called friends 79 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,920 that I knew could keep me entertained for an hour or two at a stretch. 80 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,079 So I called my friend Montice and was like, all right, you're 81 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,439 going to have to entertain me for the next two hours. Now she is 82 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:51,720 going to come to crime con next year? Is she not? Because yes, 83 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:56,920 she is two crime cons in a row. Now, you've connected with 84 00:05:57,079 --> 00:06:00,959 Josh Mankowitz, who was a friend of hers, Yes, and sent these 85 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,160 lovely notes to her video readings. But I thought to myself, we've got 86 00:06:04,199 --> 00:06:10,160 to get her there because he obviously is close with her. He's always very 87 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:15,439 excited when you connect with him. But your purpose is to send Montese a 88 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,560 video greeting, which yes, I thought, We've got to get these people 89 00:06:18,639 --> 00:06:23,360 together live and in person. Where do they even know each other from? 90 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,680 He actually followed her on Twitter. She is a published author and he is 91 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,079 a fan of her books. And so when we reconnected after a couple of 92 00:06:31,199 --> 00:06:34,240 years away from each other, we were talking about true crem She's, yeah, 93 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,319 Josh Minkwitz is my butt. I'm like, how the hell do you 94 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,800 know Josh? Mac I know? Really, she said? She said they're 95 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,959 Twitter friends who became real life friends, that he's obviously very fond of her. 96 00:06:45,079 --> 00:06:48,199 Our very first afternoon there on Friday, I was lucky enough to find 97 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:53,439 Josh in the green room after we were done with our panel and I said, 98 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:55,480 hey, Manti says Hi and he was like, oh, we got 99 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:58,079 to do a video. Let's do it. Let's do it. A very 100 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:00,839 nice guy, super sweet. Oh. Yes, she is going to come 101 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:02,959 to crime Con next year. We're working on getting a hotel room that we 102 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,399 can share and she's going to come hang out and maybe help us out in 103 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:09,680 the booth and stuff like that. It's going to be fun. That would 104 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,519 be great. And of course next year has been set for Denver, Yes, 105 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,160 in September twenty twenty five, which is about fifteen months from now. 106 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:21,759 It was interesting, this was an odd year for crime cons because I did 107 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:27,600 two crime cons in one school year, which means I ended up taking six 108 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,439 days off total for crime con. I won't have a crime con at all 109 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,959 this next school year. Isn't crime con in early September? Or will you 110 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,759 not be at school at that point? No, you're right, I don't 111 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:41,759 know. I might be getting this wrong. I don't think I have a 112 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,160 crime con though this coming up school year. Yeah. I think you're right. 113 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,920 Yeah, I think you're right. And then my travel was a little 114 00:07:47,959 --> 00:07:54,199 different from yours because I flew out of Hartford. It worked out really well. 115 00:07:54,279 --> 00:07:58,399 It was flight of Philadelphia, changed planes fly on to Nashville. It 116 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,199 went very smoothly on the way down. On the way back, there were 117 00:08:01,199 --> 00:08:07,680 these massive storms throughout the southeast, especially in Texas, which had a ripple 118 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:13,800 effect on flights were delayed and there were a lot of planes grounded at various 119 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:20,399 airports around the country, which meant that connecting flights like hours were not able 120 00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:22,920 to take off on time, so there was a three or four hour delay. 121 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:30,040 I ended up actually getting home at four am. Oh my gosh. 122 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:35,480 I snuck in and I was determined not to wake up Pamela, my partner, 123 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:37,600 or our dog Oliver, and I did manage to do that. I 124 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,159 actually slept down the hall so that I wouldn't wake them up in the middle 125 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,200 of the night, because I knew there would be too much excitement and nobody 126 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,039 would get back to sleep. So I snuck in, but it was literally 127 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:56,279 for a when I rash. The drive from Bradley Airport, the closest airport 128 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,559 to US as Hartford, is mostly through these little tiny connetics towns and woods, 129 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,279 so I was trying to be really careful not to meet a deer or 130 00:09:05,759 --> 00:09:11,279 we have moose and bear and all kinds of critters. I was about to 131 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:13,320 say, it is not out of the realm of possibility that there might be 132 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,559 a moose. The thing is, we can hear moose sometimes, especially during 133 00:09:18,639 --> 00:09:24,960 meeting season. They sound like cows, supercharged cows, big cows. We 134 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,879 can hear them. I've still never laid eyes on one, but we know 135 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:33,440 people that have seen them, and we've certainly had bear in our yard and 136 00:09:33,799 --> 00:09:37,120 deer and all kinds of other animals. I was just trying to get home 137 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,600 without a falling asleep or b meeting a critter in the middle of some country 138 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:48,039 roads somewhere, And did you blast heavy metal music to keep you awake or 139 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,559 what do you do to keep you awake? I was listening to NPR and 140 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,960 it was the BBC it was on at that point, and I was just 141 00:09:56,039 --> 00:10:01,519 like, this is too sleepy. So then I was down then satellite radio 142 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,080 and was blessed in the tunes trying to keep myself awake. It all worked 143 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,799 out fine, but was a very long return flight. Fly to Charlotte, 144 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:13,480 run through the Charlotte Airport to make my connection, and then continue on. 145 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:20,519 As it turned out, they actually held all the connecting planes even though everybody 146 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,039 got back to their destinations very late. I think they realized if they didn't 147 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:31,279 put the whole schedule back after the delays in the southeastern part of the United 148 00:10:31,279 --> 00:10:35,039 States, then nobody was going to make their connections. So they held all 149 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,600 the planes as far as I can tell, so that we all made it 150 00:10:39,639 --> 00:10:43,759 home, even though we made it only this is coming on top of three 151 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:48,039 very busy action pack days. And I don't think we can emphasize enough for 152 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,399 anybody who hasn't gone to Crime Con how busy this event actually is. You're 153 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,799 going from the moment that you wake up until the moment that you finally decide 154 00:10:56,879 --> 00:11:01,519 to roll into bed, and for some people that's really late. I stayed 155 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,080 up later than I have for a very long time, especially after the cluelwards. 156 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,159 We were up till almost one in the morning, and I just I 157 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,919 don't do that anymore except during the summer. During the summer, I'll stay 158 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,320 up till one o'clock reading, two o'clock reading. Easy. Yeah, it's 159 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:18,320 a very busy time. It's fun, it's wonderful. But I was talking 160 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,519 to Jess Bettencore, our friend the other day who we spent a lot of 161 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,960 time with this crime con and we were all all of us texting back and 162 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,000 forth to each other. Did you get home safely? Yes? How are 163 00:11:30,039 --> 00:11:33,840 you feeling today? Everybody that I was talking to, Jess Betton, Corla 164 00:11:33,919 --> 00:11:37,240 Richards, Nikki Egan, we were all like, this is exhausting. We're 165 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:39,639 so tired, Jess said, re entry is awful, and it's it is 166 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:46,639 like we're re entering regular society after this adrenaline fueled but still also very emotionally 167 00:11:46,919 --> 00:11:52,000 fraught weekend, and it's it's exhausting. And then I checked my fitbit and 168 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:54,840 I saw that we had walked twenty two miles over the course of the weekend. 169 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,600 And that's just tip of the iceberg right there. Yeah, my step 170 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:03,679 counter was just completely off the charts because the hotel, this is the Gaylord 171 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:09,399 Nashville, is massive. This is our second time being at the hotel, 172 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,399 same deal. By the way, it's only by the third day that I 173 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:20,200 started to really get my bearings because I think there's something like three thousand rooms. 174 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:22,720 It's crazy at the hotel, and it just goes on and on. 175 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:28,480 Like you, I was indoors for three days straight because there are these massive, 176 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:35,159 beautiful gardens, the whole thing is under a bubble. And so you 177 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:41,799 go from one area of the hotel to another, and there's gardens and walkways 178 00:12:41,879 --> 00:12:46,240 and a river boat, and this is all indoors. There's something about it 179 00:12:46,519 --> 00:12:52,720 that these beautiful gardens, which are gigantic, they all look similar, so 180 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:56,919 that if you get turned around, you're like desperately looking for sidage, like 181 00:12:56,039 --> 00:13:01,519 which way do I go next? I got lot at least three or four 182 00:13:01,519 --> 00:13:03,879 times. Oh totally. And even though they have an app that will help 183 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,159 you navigate, if you get far enough into the hotel, the app stops 184 00:13:07,159 --> 00:13:13,039 working. So I was using it one day and it kept telling me turn 185 00:13:13,159 --> 00:13:15,919 left in one hundred and twenty eight feet, and then it just stuck there 186 00:13:15,919 --> 00:13:18,279 and I was like, I turned left already, Besty, what's up? 187 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,200 Now? What happened? Now? What do I do? I turned left 188 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,000 where? Now? It's an absolutely stunning venue. I'm so glad that they 189 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:28,720 went back to it. It was the best possible space. I think so 190 00:13:28,879 --> 00:13:33,360 too. I think it works out really well. They have so many guests 191 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:37,480 now. I think there were six five hundred people in attendance. Now, 192 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:41,200 obviously some of those people are doubling up in their hotel rooms, and then 193 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,559 there are other people that are there for the day or staying at other hotels. 194 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,840 Originally I booked late and I was in the Overflow hotel, which is 195 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:56,399 perfectly nice and not very far away, and they moved me into the main 196 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:00,000 hotel, which I was actually glad of. There's so much going on, 197 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,919 and you see so many people that you mostly have an electronic relationship with. 198 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,720 It's mostly people, including people we interview for Mind over Murder, that are 199 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:15,159 connections that we've made, but we mostly have relationships that are built around phone 200 00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:20,720 calls, zoom calls, texts, email, not as much face to face 201 00:14:20,799 --> 00:14:24,639 contact. So when you actually see these people face to face, it's actually 202 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:30,879 really fun because you feel like you're solidifying relationships and reconnecting with people, and 203 00:14:30,919 --> 00:14:33,600 it's just so much fun. But you're running, honey, we were going 204 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:37,840 over the schedule just now to give your printed schedule for Friday, May thirty, 205 00:14:37,879 --> 00:14:41,879 first Saturday, June first, Sunday, June second. I'm looking at 206 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,559 the panels and thinking, oh, I want to go to that, I 207 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,720 want to go to this, and you can't be everywhere. Well, you 208 00:14:48,759 --> 00:14:54,200 didn't end up at any though. That's the thing. It's and that happens. 209 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,799 That's a function of Okay, we're speaking, which was all things onto 210 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,600 itself. I'm to man this booth, which is a whole other thing, 211 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,919 and then do we also have time to go to panels? And the reason 212 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,840 that I ended up being able to go to panels is my good friend Chris, 213 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,519 who is a listener to the podcast. Hi Chris, thank you for 214 00:15:11,559 --> 00:15:15,919 coming to hang out with me at Crime Con. Chris came in for the 215 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,840 day. We went to a bunch of different panels. But I think that's 216 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:22,919 the only reason I actually got to go to panels is because I told you 217 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:24,840 I'm not going to be in the booth. I'm hanging out with Chris, 218 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,720 and so we got to see a couple of things. But I don't know 219 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,240 that I would have gone otherwise. What was great though for you and Chris 220 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,360 is that it was Chris's first Crime Con. As far as I could tell, 221 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,600 he wanted to plug into what's this thing that you and Bill go to? 222 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:43,720 So you wanted to take him around to a bunch of panels and give 223 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:48,279 him a chance to get a flavor for this massive conference. That meant that 224 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,320 you were going to spin off and you told me that, and so I 225 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:56,919 was doing my best to cover the booth although I saw so many people that 226 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,080 I wanted to have conversation with that there were a number of times where I'd 227 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,519 be swinging back to the booth, You'd be there, or you and Chris 228 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:08,320 would be heading off to yet another panel. What an amazing experience. And 229 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:14,879 for Chris is a first time or anyone, I think Crime Con can be 230 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,399 pretty amazing as an introduction to what's going on in the true crime space. 231 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,759 No, absolutely it was. And the lineup this year was phenomenal. So 232 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,240 I want to make sure that we shout out Kevin and his team because the 233 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:33,639 guests that they put together, and I think we can humbly include ourselves among 234 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:37,519 those guests, those speakers. It was a phenomenal lineup. I never in 235 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:41,720 a million years thought I would be able to actually see John Douglas or John 236 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:45,240 Walsh in person, and yet I got to go to both. I got 237 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,279 to meet John Douglas, which is believe me, it's a lifelong bucket list 238 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,399 item. So many items on the bucket list, like I said, got 239 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:57,240 checked off this weekend and it was wonderful. It was just phenomenal. The 240 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:02,919 fact that we got to hang out in the Platinum Lounge because we were speakers 241 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,960 allowed me to meet some of the people that I didn't get a chance to 242 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:10,119 go to their panels. I did not get a chance to listen to Anthony 243 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,799 Zeicher talk about CSI right because we were getting ready to go to John Douglas's 244 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,920 cocktail Hour. But I did get to meet him, and so that was 245 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,559 really cool. That was an opportunity that I don't think I would have had 246 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:25,079 otherwise. There are definitely perks to being speakers, and I really enjoyed those 247 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,880 perks. Yeah, but even that first day, listen to this lineup. 248 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,160 You've got the three of us. This is you, Me and Cheryl Mack 249 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:37,359 McCollum, who did an incredible job as our MC, presenting on developments in 250 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:42,519 the Colonial Parkway Murders to five hundred plus people in one of the main ballrooms. 251 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:48,200 We actually got moved to a larger room. Because people indicate in advance 252 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,759 what they're interested in attending. That you check a box on an app that 253 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,160 tells you, Okay, here's what's going on. What do you think you're 254 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,640 going to be attending, And that allows the person to have a schedule that 255 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:06,400 they can print out if they want. That first day John Douglas fireside chat 256 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:11,599 with Chris Hansen, which they put into the biggest ballroom they could fit, 257 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,839 probably held two thousand people. The Colonial Parkway Murders is next door The Future 258 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:22,400 of Forensics with David and Kristen Middleman are friends from Athram Finding a Voice Victim 259 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,720 impact Statement readings, which is from a lot of people who have been involved 260 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:32,160 in very well known cases Golden State Killer and others. And then at the 261 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:37,279 same time there was an Aphrodite Jones meet and Greek going on a law and 262 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,279 crime sidebar meet, and Greek and Scamanda meet and greet, all going on 263 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:47,200 at the same time. And that's just one one hour period and it just 264 00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:52,640 goes on from there. So we felt really good. I think about our 265 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:59,160 presentation, how it went over. The questions from the audience were phenomenal. 266 00:18:59,279 --> 00:19:03,200 So we spoke for about forty five minutes. Kristin, you did a fantastic 267 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:07,839 job. You structured the presentation, put together the slides, and then gave 268 00:19:08,039 --> 00:19:14,599 Mac the questions that she was to ask us, and we alternated answers with 269 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,240 the Colonial Parkway Murders. I have a tendency to go a little bit deeper, 270 00:19:18,279 --> 00:19:22,000 but I've got the family connection to the case. The questions from the 271 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:27,319 audience were outstanding. Oh yeah, there's actually a couple of things that we 272 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,920 could spin off and do a whole separate episodes on those. And then a 273 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,519 lot of people came by our booth at what they're now calling Creators Row, 274 00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:41,039 which they used to call Podcast Row because there's podcasters and lots of other creative 275 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:47,000 people who are displaying at tables in this also very large room packed with people. 276 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:51,599 But a lot of people stopped by afterwards over the next two days and 277 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,680 told us how much they'd enjoyed the presentation. They learned more about the Colonial 278 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,839 Parkway murders, they learned more about the three of us, and they were 279 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:03,119 in listening to Mind over Murder if they weren't already listening to it. So 280 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,799 I felt like it was very successful all the way around. Yeah, no, 281 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,400 I agree, And as anybody who listens to the pod knows, I 282 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,720 am not the biggest fan in the world of public speaking. I was petrified 283 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,279 before we did our live shows, but ultimately I feel like those went well, 284 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,359 and I was very nervous about doing this panel in front of a large 285 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,759 audience. I knew it needed to be done, and I knew what it 286 00:20:26,799 --> 00:20:29,240 needed to be done well, so I just I had that one moment of 287 00:20:29,319 --> 00:20:33,119 terror where they actually miked me up with a mic pack, and then I 288 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,720 hear that intro come out booming across the ballroom. Please welcome to the Crime 289 00:20:37,759 --> 00:20:41,640 Con stage, Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilly of the Mind Over Murder podcast and 290 00:20:41,799 --> 00:20:44,759 Cheryl McCollum. I wrote the intro. I know how it went. I 291 00:20:44,799 --> 00:20:47,680 heard it and my mind just froze and was like, oh my god, 292 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:49,079 I'm about to go talk in front of a large group of people. But 293 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,160 it went really well. And honestly, if you'd asked me thirty seconds after 294 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,680 we were done, would you go do it again? I would have said 295 00:20:56,759 --> 00:20:59,200 yes then, and I still say yes now. I would love to go 296 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,519 back and do that again. And it was great and everybody was so wonderful 297 00:21:02,519 --> 00:21:07,279 in response. I worked with a lot of musicians, actors, broadcasters and 298 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,039 other presenters have told me sometimes they get butterflies or stage fright just before they 299 00:21:12,079 --> 00:21:15,279 go on. You told me just before we went on, how nervous you 300 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,799 were, but sitting next to you on stage. I could hear the nervousness 301 00:21:19,799 --> 00:21:23,880 in your voice, but it only lasted for a few seconds. Then you 302 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,920 hit your stride and you started answering the question. I don't remember what the 303 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:33,000 question was. The nervousness went away, and you just kicked it in and 304 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,599 started talking because you have a lot to share with this room. And the 305 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,640 truth is, even though there's five hundred people in the room, with the 306 00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:44,240 very very bright lights in your eyes, you can't really see beyond the first 307 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:47,559 couple of rows. Yeah, you're right, you can only see the first 308 00:21:47,599 --> 00:21:49,799 couple of rows clearly. But I could tell when I actually it was about 309 00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:53,279 five minutes in and I dared to actually turn my head away from you and 310 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,000 Mac and go look and see what else was out there, because I honestly 311 00:21:57,039 --> 00:22:00,160 figured we weren't going to get very many people, though there were a ton 312 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,799 of people there. Yeah, it was when I turned my head and noticed, 313 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,279 oh god, there's a lot of people in this room and it's still 314 00:22:08,319 --> 00:22:11,440 It didn't actually make me nervous, because I'd been talking for about five minutes 315 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,599 at that point, but it did just make me go, oh whoa, 316 00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:18,960 Like I really didn't think we were going to be getting that many people. 317 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,559 We were competing with John Douglas and David and Kristen Middleman. After all, 318 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,359 it was a big sea of people out there. It was I was pleased. 319 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,519 I don't generally think about how many people are in the room or any 320 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,480 of that stuff. I just mostly focus on what it is that we want 321 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:40,480 to say. And of course you're listening to Max's questions and then trying to 322 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:44,400 respond to them in a meaningful way. I had to turn my head back 323 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,319 and forth between you and Mac. I want to engage with the audience. 324 00:22:48,599 --> 00:22:52,240 I don't find myself getting lost in the fact that Jesus five hundred people staring 325 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:56,799 at You've done that far more often, and it's something that I enjoy. 326 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,799 I think it's the difference between being an introvert and an extrovert. You're more 327 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,599 introverted, which you often point out, and I'm more extroverted. We've talked 328 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,680 about this before at Crime Con, where you have said at the end of 329 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,319 the afternoon, I just need to go be quiet for a little while, 330 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,839 and I'm like, let's go to the bar, get a diet coke and 331 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,720 talk to more people. It's funny, I didn't actually need that much downtime 332 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,759 this time, because I've really come to enjoy Crime Con I always have, 333 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,839 but we were able to spend time with such a marvelous group of people this 334 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,400 time. We were able to spend really good quality time with Jess Betton, 335 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:41,000 Core Lindsay Wade, Laura Richards, Nikki Egan Denis, and Aaron Quinn. 336 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:45,079 I didn't at any point feel I'm sick of talking to these people. I'm 337 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,799 overloaded, I'm done. We had great company, and so I don't really 338 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:53,319 feel It wasn't until I actually left on Sunday and was in the car that 339 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,359 I realized, oh good, it's quiet, and actually I needed it to 340 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:02,319 be quiet for a little bit. I really did need it. I think 341 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,599 by the time Sunday rolled around and I noticed that I was starting to get 342 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:10,000 shaky, it was like I've burned out everything that I can possibly burn, 343 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,200 like I have nothing left to give. I'm pretty good now. So I 344 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,920 had no problem being quiet for the remainder of that drive to Bristol, Virginia. 345 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,400 That was it was hard. You're listening to mindover Murder. We'll be 346 00:24:22,519 --> 00:24:33,359 right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. 347 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,559 Before we get back to the podcast, just wanted to remind you that 348 00:24:37,599 --> 00:24:41,599 we have a go fundme effort going on right now. This campaign is designed 349 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:48,359 to help us raise funds to help promote Mind over Murder and specifically to push 350 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,839 the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. We'd love it if you could support us 351 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:57,759 in any way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to whatever you 352 00:24:57,799 --> 00:25:03,319 can afford is very much appreciated and will be incredibly helpful. The link is 353 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,880 in the show notes and in our social media pages. As always, thanks 354 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:14,200 for your support. Now back to mind over Murder. I totally get where 355 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,799 you're coming from. At the same time, you were working it like I've 356 00:25:18,839 --> 00:25:25,559 never seen you do before, partly because you didn't fly to this one and 357 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,640 you drove. You brought this amazing stack of books, and regular listeners know 358 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:38,480 that you are a rabbid reader or should I say avid Maybe not rabbit work, 359 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,480 all right, we'll go with avid reader. You brought so many true 360 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,039 crime books with you, and you wanted to ask the various authors to sign 361 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:53,039 them, which they're always happy to do because I think there's nothing more flattering 362 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,759 I would guess if you're an author, than to have somebody come up with 363 00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:02,680 a book that you wrote and they're thanking you for writing it and they're asking 364 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,759 you to autograph it's that's actually a pretty meaningful moment. I would think for 365 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:14,319 most writers. You were lining up all these people and we won't announce names 366 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,920 yet until we get them all scheduled. You were talking to people that we'd 367 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,480 like to have on mind over murder in the future and getting great response. 368 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:29,119 Man, you just never let up. I was determined that really, literally, 369 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,519 the only person I didn't get that I really wanted to I did not 370 00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:34,839 get a chance to talk to John Walsh, and I wanted to so badly, 371 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,519 but everybody else because he was the man at crime Con Obviously, the 372 00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:47,200 two John's, especially John Douglas and John Walsh, I think were the biggest 373 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:52,000 tickets if at Crime Con this year. Yeah, they're They're not just Crime 374 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:56,039 con Royalty, they're crime. There's something above crime con Royalty. Crime con 375 00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,519 Royalty is Josh Manka WIT's and Nancy Grace and Mac too. Mac is obviously 376 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:03,519 Crime con Royalty. I've never seen so many people at her booth before. 377 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,400 It was insane and I'm so glad we got to be next to her, 378 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,279 but she was working it too for all she was worth. But yeah, 379 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,519 John, somebody online called it the John trifecta. It was John Douglas, 380 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:18,160 John Walsh, and John Ramsay. And yeah, the only person I was 381 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,359 not able to actually nail down was John Walsh. But everyone else I got 382 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:29,720 to meet, including finally Paul Holes. We need to spend a few minutes 383 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:37,319 on the pall Hole story. Now, a wedge had been driven between Kristin 384 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,920 Dilly and Bill Thomas, and it was a sad It was a sad moment. 385 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,599 Kristin had taken great offense at the fact that she had never met Paul 386 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:53,720 Holes, and legendary investigator often credited with helping to break the Golden State killer 387 00:27:53,799 --> 00:28:03,680 case, major star at crime Con, and somehow at the last couple of 388 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,119 crime cons, I've run into Paul several times and ended up chatting with him. 389 00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:12,759 He always asks me about what's going on with the Colonial Parkway murders, 390 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,799 what's going on with your sister's case, how are you that kind of thing. 391 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,000 And Paul keeps a low profile because the last couple of years at crime 392 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:29,640 Con have been the Paul Holes as sex symbol in true crime space thing that's 393 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,599 been He is like all of the Beatles and Elvis Presley rolled into one, 394 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,079 if you'l excuse the dated I guess for the younger folks, it's like he's 395 00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:45,359 Harry Styles. And remember, folks, kN is largely a female audience. 396 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,000 True crime is two thirds women, so a lot more men there this year, 397 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:52,160 I think, But yes, there were still just as many women. 398 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:55,839 I did too, although I was getting the vibe that there were a fair 399 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,000 number of husband's boyfriends, et cetera that looked like they were being dragged along 400 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:03,480 eye. I don't know who else to put that. I think they were 401 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,039 having a good time, but man, their partners, wives, girlfriends, 402 00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:14,480 whatever, were clearly driving the bus and super excited about being a crime con. 403 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:21,160 Yes, but this wedge that I refer to, Kristen began to take 404 00:29:21,319 --> 00:29:26,880 umbrage with the fact that I kept running into Paul at crime Con but never 405 00:29:27,039 --> 00:29:33,039 introducing her to Paul Holes because I was always seeing Paul elsewhere. And I 406 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:37,000 know this may be hard to believe, but we're not actually attached at the 407 00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:41,400 hip at crime Con. So Kristen's going her way and I'm going mine. 408 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,200 Sometimes we're together, but a lot of times we're not. And I kept 409 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,640 running into Paul and chatting with him, and then I'd come back and at 410 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,799 some point I'd say, oh, yeah, I saw Paul, and she'd 411 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:56,759 be like the sour face. I like, you could have texted is pretty 412 00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:59,319 much what I always said. You could have texted. Just send me a 413 00:29:59,359 --> 00:30:03,640 text me, I'm hanging out with Paul Holes. I'm backstage at such and 414 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,640 such and you're going to have to haul yourself over here. Oh, I 415 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:15,000 would have sprinted. So Kristen made it very clear that this enough was enough, 416 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:21,400 and that I needed to make my business to introduce Kristin Dilly to Paul 417 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,680 Holes and vice versa. I also charged several other people with this task, 418 00:30:26,799 --> 00:30:30,640 because there are many of our friends who know Paul Holes, in addition to 419 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,160 Bill Thomas, and I made sure that the folks at authoram knew that I 420 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,440 needed to meet Paul Holes. And I let Mac know, and I let 421 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:40,359 Jane Carson Sandler know, and I told a bunch of people. I was 422 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:41,920 like, this will be the year I meet Paul Holes. It must be, 423 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:47,480 it must be, And it was. I had also enlisted many of 424 00:30:47,519 --> 00:30:55,279 our friends in this mission of introducing Kristen to Paul. So we were working 425 00:30:55,359 --> 00:31:00,519 together as a team to make absolutely certain this happen, and the author and 426 00:31:00,599 --> 00:31:06,759 people took it out all the way. Paul is now a consultant to Authram 427 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,039 and is working with them in their DNA labs and as a spokesperson, outreach 428 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:18,440 person, et cetera for Athram. Even they said to Paul via text that 429 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,519 he needed to meet you, and so Paul was making it his business to 430 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:30,039 meet kristin Bilbey. So tell the story about how it finally happened. Okay, 431 00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:36,599 we had left the John Douglas Cocktail Hour and the John Douglas evening with 432 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,119 the mind Hunter panel, which was beyond amazing. That's a whole separate thing 433 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,839 all into itself, and we decided that we were going to go back toward 434 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,000 the Falls Bar, which is in the main lobby of the Gaylord, because 435 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:53,079 we know that's where a lot of podcasters tend to hang out, and that's 436 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:59,319 also where the authorom folks and Paul tend to hang out. So we're walking 437 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,440 over. I got my eagle eye looking for looking for who all is at 438 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,319 the bar, and I spotted Paul hanging out with the auth room folks, 439 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,119 and for once, for I don't know, thirty seconds, he didn't have 440 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,480 a crowd of women around him. So I went over. I held out 441 00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:20,839 my hand, and keep in mind, Paul is used to people fangirling, 442 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,079 and I figured the best thing I can do is not so whenever I held 443 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:27,000 out my hand, I said, I had been trying to meet you for 444 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:30,519 four years. I'm Kristin and Bill Thomas's podcast partner, Mind Over Murder, 445 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,839 introduced myself. I said, I loved your book. I'd really like to 446 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,039 talk about your writing process. We're having a good conversation and I am not, 447 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,119 in any way, shape or form gushing, which most people do when 448 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:46,799 they see Paul. So we're talking, We're trying to have a conversation, 449 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,359 and the bar is getting more and more crowded, like by the nanosecond because 450 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,200 people are noticing, oh, here's where the podcasters are. But people were 451 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,680 also catching a glimpse of Paul. So I'm trying to talk to Paul. 452 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,839 People or piling it and piling in, and we're trying to have a good 453 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:08,480 conversation about writing, and this woman walks up to us. She's got two 454 00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:13,319 drinks in her hand, and you thought she was a waitress maybe, Yeah, 455 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,400 And she was delivering the drinks from the way. She was walking over 456 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,839 with one in each hand. Yeah, And she just walks over and right 457 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,759 in the middle of my conversation with Paul Holes, she just walks right up 458 00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:30,160 and she looks at him. She goes, will you marry me? And 459 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,519 Paul's given me a WTF look? Yeah, And I'm sure this is not 460 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,960 near to him. No, but I thought she was joking at first. 461 00:33:38,359 --> 00:33:42,480 Yeah, And I look at her and I'm like, I'm trying to have 462 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:46,279 a conversation with Paul Holes. And what did he say when she said will 463 00:33:46,279 --> 00:33:50,240 you marry me? He said, so, she said it a second I 464 00:33:50,279 --> 00:33:52,880 said, I'm trying to have a conversation. She said it a second time, 465 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:58,720 but will you marry me? He goes married already, which everybody seems 466 00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:04,559 to forget that Paul married. And at that point, because she had come 467 00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:07,759 over, I think a bunch of other people took it upon themselves to be 468 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:09,239 like, oh, it's totally fine, now I can come over too. 469 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,639 So I was getting shoved further and further away from Balls. I just extended 470 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:16,880 my hand and said it was great to meet you. I'd love to talk 471 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,079 to you again soon, and he was like, yeah, likewise, and 472 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,519 I jerked my thumb at the couple of people who were like pushing their way 473 00:34:24,559 --> 00:34:28,280 to him, and I said, I'm sorry, this must be really awkward 474 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,239 for you. He goes, yeah, I hate this, and that's got 475 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:36,440 to be rough to be. This has been an issue for Paul Holes. 476 00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:40,760 Paul Holes helped solve the Golden State killer case. He ended up getting a 477 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,639 tremendous amount of media attention, more than he wanted. When I first met 478 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:50,760 him, which was at my first Crime con in Nashville, I was at 479 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,920 a dinner with x G Productions. The first time I met him. We 480 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,320 were chatting and I said, so, Paul, I assume you've heard about 481 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:05,039 this hashtag hot for Holes was all over social media that year. He didn't 482 00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:07,159 know what I was talking about, and I said, apparently you're not aware 483 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:13,440 of this, but people are hashtaging hot for holes all over social media. 484 00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:17,679 Keeping in mind True Crime is a female driven fan base, if you will, 485 00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:23,559 well, what's happened over the last several years is this has gotten increasingly 486 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,519 difficult for him because he is an active participant in the true crime space. 487 00:35:30,599 --> 00:35:35,360 He's written his own book, He's appeared on a number of television shows. 488 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,920 He's now a consultant for Authram. He's very serious about working on cases, 489 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:49,639 consulting on cases, and promoting cases that he feels need more publicity. This 490 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,159 is all against a backdrop where people are going gaga for the guy like a 491 00:35:54,280 --> 00:36:00,719 rock star. So I liken this to it would be like you would go 492 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:06,440 to the bar and you'd be hanging out with like you said, Harry Styles 493 00:36:06,679 --> 00:36:09,920 or name your favorite pop star here. Yeah, it reached the point. 494 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:15,920 Paul told us this. He doesn't stay at the host hotel. He stays 495 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:22,320 elsewhere, and he mostly keeps a super low profile because so many people want 496 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,599 autographs, so they want to take selfies with him, and he's actually trying 497 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:30,079 to get some work done as well. It's not that he isn't friendly. 498 00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:35,159 He's actually very nice and he is willing to engage. But it actually gets 499 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,400 overwhelming because there's such a crush. As you were saying a moment ago, 500 00:36:38,599 --> 00:36:44,840 Kristin, You're in the bar and people are spotting him in the crowd, 501 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,519 and then they just start moving towards him because so many people want to meet 502 00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:53,239 him and say hello, have a photograph taken or whatever, But it's almost 503 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:59,079 too much. There's like a crush of people, yeah, that want to 504 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:05,599 get a piece of and it's got to be a little strange because I think 505 00:37:05,639 --> 00:37:09,800 he's actually a little bit shy when it gets down to his core. Sure 506 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:16,119 prevents him from having easy access and mobility in a place like crime Con because 507 00:37:16,119 --> 00:37:21,440 there's so many people who are true crime fans us included, who want a 508 00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:25,440 moment of his time, and I think that can be a little difficult. 509 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,719 And so one of the reasons why I was seeing him at these previous crime 510 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,360 cons was if I was backstage for one of the events you and I were 511 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,440 working on, or presentations or whatever, that's where I would see him. 512 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:45,440 Would be in mostly in green rooms and places like that that are quieter and 513 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:51,400 a bit more limited access. That's where I would run into him, like 514 00:37:51,559 --> 00:37:54,800 you found with Josh Mankowitz and others, when they're making their way across the 515 00:37:54,920 --> 00:38:00,599 floor at Creator's Row or going from one ballroom to another, there's just a 516 00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:05,599 ton of stuff going on. They keep getting stopped, so it makes it 517 00:38:05,639 --> 00:38:09,159 difficult just to move from point A to point b Yeah, you don't see 518 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,760 Josh Mankowitz at on creator's row because he would get jumped by dateline fans. 519 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,679 We were talking to a friend and they said, I'm sure Paul Holes can 520 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,679 take care of himself. Yeah, undoubtedly Paul Hols can take care of himself, 521 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:29,079 as can Josh Mankowitz. But I still don't think that we necessarily need 522 00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:34,599 to be objectifying him and treating him in this Elvis Beatles, Harry Styles, 523 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,039 take your pick sort of manner. The reason because I know people are going 524 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:39,920 to be like, yeah, but you said you've been wanting to meet him 525 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:44,480 for four years. I really admire Paul for the work that he's done. 526 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,559 Is he cute? Yeah, totally. But I really wanted to thank him 527 00:38:47,639 --> 00:38:51,960 for the work that he's done, the dedication that he shows, the fact 528 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,920 that he's a kick ass writer. He did an amazing job on his book, 529 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,679 and he was very quick to credit his co author with doing the bulk 530 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,880 of that. I wanted to tell Paul because I think he's amazing. He 531 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,280 is hecute and does that help? Sure, But that's not the primary reason. 532 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,679 I was not the person going up to Paul Holes and spontaneously proposing marriage, 533 00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:13,679 and that's got to just be I would not have believed it if I 534 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,639 hadn't seen it with my own eyes. Honestly, it was the most random 535 00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:20,960 thing that I think I've ever seen, just somebody. It feels like people 536 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,480 walking up to Frank Sinatra at the height of Sinatra Mania and something like that. 537 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:29,440 It was weird. It was very off putting. But I am glad 538 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,960 that I finally got to meet him. I no longer have to hold a 539 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:37,239 grudge against you because you saw him more often than I did. I'm perfectly 540 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,480 happy. If there is honestly anything that I would change a little bit about 541 00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:44,480 crime Con, it would just be, like, I get that people are 542 00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:46,079 excited and happy to be there, but at least just be a little bit 543 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:52,239 more respectful of the speakers who were there to do a job and don't necessarily 544 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:58,519 treat them like a product. And the weird thing is, like I said, 545 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:00,840 I thought this woman was joking at first, and then I realized, 546 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,039 oh my gosh, she's not joking. Now. I've chatted with Paul about 547 00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:08,679 this before, all the way back to the first crime con I attended in 548 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:15,719 Nashville. He told me then he was married. He's always been married during 549 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:19,559 the crime con era. Like you said, I admire him, and I 550 00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:22,159 admire the work that he does, and he's also a super nice guy. 551 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:27,760 Some of this has just gotten a little beyond the beyond. Though I'm not 552 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,440 beating up this woman. I honestly thought somebody had put her up to it, 553 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:37,159 and then I realized, no, she's serious, and she was interrupting 554 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:39,760 your conversation. I was standing a few feet away chatting with some other people. 555 00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:45,159 I was certainly aware of what was going on and the fact that you 556 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,400 two were engaged in book talk and writer talk. Yeah, honestly, that's 557 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,719 the part I was madest about. It was, like, I am just 558 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,360 I was able to talk to him for two minutes, maybe three, and 559 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,519 then she came over and interrupted, and after that it was just open season. 560 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,920 Yeah. Total, I need at least another couple of minutes just to 561 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:07,840 talk to him about the work that he did Unmasked. But no, I 562 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,400 hope that, I hope that we will have the opportunity to talk to him 563 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,079 a little bit more at some point or another, either on the air or 564 00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:16,440 off the air, because he does seem like a legitimately good guy and who's 565 00:41:16,559 --> 00:41:22,079 done amazing work and I was at Athram. We're very pleased that they were 566 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:29,480 able to help facilitate this introduction because they knew this was an important thing for 567 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,360 you, and a marriage proposal was not part of the mix. No, 568 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,119 not at all, Not at all, I would say. Another thing that 569 00:41:37,159 --> 00:41:40,480 was probably a highlight for both of us was being able to meet John Douglas, 570 00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:44,719 who we met before we went out on stage for our own panel, 571 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:50,000 but also to go to his session. So next episode we have a little 572 00:41:50,039 --> 00:41:52,599 bit more in terms of great Crime Con stories. We're going to talk a 573 00:41:52,639 --> 00:41:57,760 little bit about meeting John Douglas, about the amazing work that John Walsh has 574 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,760 done, about some of the many wonderful friends and fans that we got to 575 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,960 meet, and also about the fact that we at a crime committed against us 576 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,239 at Crime Con if you can believe that there is a whole entire story there 577 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,119 as well. For now, that is going to do it for this episode 578 00:42:14,159 --> 00:42:17,239 of Mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you 579 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:32,960 next time. Mindover Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 580 00:42:34,519 --> 00:42:38,280 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 581 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:44,760 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder 582 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,199 is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 583 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:53,079 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 584 00:42:53,119 --> 00:42:58,920 Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 585 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,280 at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.