WEBVTT 1 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:33.159 So welcome to this week's episode of The Path Went Chili. Ashley is quite 2 00:00:33.159 --> 00:00:36.439 busy this week, so she is off, But instead we're going to change 3 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:40.799 our format a little bit and do an episode where I tell Jules all about 4 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:44.439 a case that she's not familiar with. And this one is a little different 5 00:00:44.439 --> 00:00:48.759 than the norm because it's technically a solved case, a case that got solved 6 00:00:48.920 --> 00:00:53.640 very recently, so the Path is no longer Chili. Well, I'm excited 7 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.119 to hear about this case. You had written it in an email, and 8 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:00.119 I went out of my way to not look at it again and to not 9 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:04.519 google it because the curiosity will get the best of me sometimes. But anytime 10 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:08.000 you're about to tell me about a case, I want it to be a 11 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.480 situation where I go in totally blind. So I'm excited to hear all the 12 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.439 details. Yeah, and this is not a very well known case. It's 13 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:19.840 only been played on a couple of YouTube channels on podcasts, but it hasn't 14 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:25.120 got a lot of mainstream publicity. I covered it on The Trail Went Cold 15 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:27.200 about three and a half years ago, and like I said, it has 16 00:01:27.239 --> 00:01:30.920 recently been solved and we kind of hit a milestone because the trail went cold. 17 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:34.280 Actually got a shout out at the police press conference, which is a 18 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:38.359 first for us. It was a really exciting moment. That's exciting. Do 19 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:44.239 you know how many cases that you've covered over the years, Like how many 20 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:47.879 years has it been now, like six or seven years? Eight years out? 21 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.239 Oh my god, eight years? That is crazy. But do you 22 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:57.879 know how many have been solved? Slash ones that indirectly or directly you might 23 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:00.680 have had a hand in something. Well, this is the only one I 24 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:05.879 think that I had a hand in where we've gotten acknowledged by the police that 25 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.919 they listened to it and kind of used it as an investigative tool. But 26 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:13.520 it's been a lot of cases, like we've released four update episodes talking about 27 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.199 all the cases we've solved and had major developments. And of course the most 28 00:02:17.199 --> 00:02:21.800 infamous example is the Janelle Matthews case where we found out that the killer was 29 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:28.039 one but I talked about that on a previous episode. Yeah, that's crazy. 30 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:31.639 And then I remember our Keith Warren episodes. We got some traction on 31 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:36.800 that one, and it seemed to be some involvement from the police resulted from 32 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:40.000 what was it a city council person hearing our recording, Yes it was. 33 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:46.240 I can't remember his exact position, but the Discovery Plus released a documentary series 34 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.080 about the Keith Warren case where the person in question actually said on camera I 35 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.560 was listening to a podcast about the case. He didn't say which name it 36 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:57.919 was, but I knew he was referring to us. And just recently, 37 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:02.000 Keith's sister, Sherry Warren, announced that they've officially changed his cause of death 38 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:07.599 from suicide to undetermined, which doesn't mean it's solved, but that is a 39 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:10.719 big deal because they've been fighting for that for thirty eight years. That made 40 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:15.520 me so happy because I just I love Sherry. I think she's such a 41 00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:20.039 brave person and to fight against such adversity and like, really, at the 42 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:23.479 end of the day, that was all she wanted was to say that you 43 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:29.120 don't definitively know that my brother ended his own life, so you can't say 44 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.560 that it was suicide. So to have a switch to undetermined was her end 45 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:37.439 goal. And to know that she reached that and to think that, like, 46 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:40.039 maybe we had some small part in it, because I know the guy 47 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:44.759 who's the he was the fire captain, but he was the EMT on the 48 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:46.520 scene at the time. He was the one who reached out to me and 49 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:52.280 told me that somebody had heard like within those circles and that it was our 50 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:57.120 podcast that was listened to. So that was a really cool feeling right when 51 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:01.120 we were starting out. Amazing. Yeah, and Sherry just posted the letter 52 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.199 she received confirming that they were changing the cause of death. She put it 53 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.840 on Twitter, so that's how we know it's official. But it was a 54 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:13.080 very momentous occasion. So this one here took place all the way back in 55 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:15.800 nineteen forty five, so you wouldn't put this high on the list of cases 56 00:04:15.839 --> 00:04:20.519 that I would expect to see solved. And what had happened is the granddaughter 57 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:24.519 of this woman, Mary Jane van Gilder. She had been reaching out to 58 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:29.439 a lot of podcasts and YouTube channels asking if they would cover her grandmother's case. 59 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:32.600 Obviously, she wasn't alive and never got to know her grandmother before she 60 00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.000 went missing, but she still wanted to find out answers about what happened to 61 00:04:36.040 --> 00:04:42.439 her, and she posted in my Facebook discussion group in the fall of twenty 62 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:45.879 twenty asking if I would cover it, and needless to say, I get 63 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.560 to reached out to by families of missing and murdered people all the time, 64 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.720 but this was the first time I had heard from someone who had a missing 65 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:56.639 relative go missing in the nineteen forties, so I was quite surprised by it, 66 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:00.000 but I decided to do it and to smile. Also to my surprise, 67 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.240 she put me in touch with a detective who was working on the case. 68 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:06.879 His name was Adam Turner. He works for the police department in Shelby, 69 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:10.879 Ohio, and need list to say, I did not expect to be 70 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:15.279 contacting a police officer who was working a missing person's case that was seventy five 71 00:05:15.360 --> 00:05:17.680 years old at this point, but he is one of the most passionate police 72 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:21.279 officers I've ever seen, and he pretty much had the attitude that even though 73 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:26.639 this is seventy five years old, you should always work unsolved cold cases. 74 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.319 It's never too late. So he was trying to get the word out to 75 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:34.040 see if he could solve this one. The landscape of investigating crimes has changed 76 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:38.959 so much, like I think now you've got a lot of police departments who 77 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:43.160 are willing to reach out to podcasters, even if they do so on the 78 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:45.680 DL and they don't put it out there, like, hey, we've reached 79 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.560 out to podcasters and we're hoping to get this story out. I think back 80 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:53.000 in the eighties, the nineties, the early two thousands, it was like 81 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:57.120 they would use psychics and not talk about it, right, It was like 82 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.759 that was their investigative tool. And I feel like now it's podcasters. And 83 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:05.519 so it's really cool that you got to work in tandem with the investigator and 84 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:11.480 to see something like this solved, and to know that the granddaughter has that 85 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:15.240 kind of resolution to truly know what happened to her grandmother, like that's a 86 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.399 really beautiful thing. Oh exactly. And this was a case where no missing 87 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:26.480 person's report was ever officially filed until twenty eighteen, and that's when Adam Turner 88 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:30.920 took over the investigation, and he had the mentality that we have to get 89 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.040 every piece of information we have about this case out there because maybe the right 90 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:38.879 person will hear it and they'll come forward. Because he's got nothing to work 91 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:42.360 with. I mean, we don't even we can't even pinpoint an exact moment 92 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:45.720 when the victim went missing. We have no evidence, no suspects, no 93 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:48.959 eyewitnesses. So he's pretty much working with nothing, but that did not deter 94 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:54.519 him. And I know that some police investigators are very defensive. They do 95 00:06:54.600 --> 00:06:57.480 not want to help podcasts. They kind of have the mentality, oh, 96 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.600 they're trying to tell us how to do our jobs. They're kind of saying 97 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:02.800 that we can't solve this on ro own. But he had the opposite approach, 98 00:07:02.839 --> 00:07:08.079 saying that podcasts and YouTube shows can be a very helpful medium and they 99 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.439 have made a difference in a lot of cases. Oh, I think it's 100 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.319 inarguable at this point, especially like the larger the reach that a podcast has, 101 00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:19.639 the greater the difference that they can make. You've got a huge listener 102 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:24.519 base, and then you see lots of other podcasts like I hate to use 103 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:28.439 the example of Crime Junkie because it's such an obvious one, but what they've 104 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.959 been able to do with their platform to help victims and to help victims' families 105 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:41.839 is pretty inspiring. And even like people like Meggie Freelan who cover wrongful conviction 106 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:46.240 cases and to be able to get people to listen to these cases, which 107 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.240 are often those of racial minorities, and it makes a huge difference, and 108 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:56.439 that is like just an invaluable tool in the toolbox of investigators if they're willing 109 00:07:56.519 --> 00:08:01.519 to utilize podcasters. Oh yeah, and another example of wrongful convictions. We 110 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:05.680 did an episode a while back of the murders of Harold and Thelma Swain where 111 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:11.079 a man named Dennis Perry was wrongfully convicted of the crime, and Undisclosed covered 112 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:15.040 it and even invited me to be a guest on it. And back in 113 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:20.480 twenty twenty, they finally did do DNA testing and had Dennis exonerated and he 114 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:22.759 was released, but he was pretty much in a hopeless situation. And I 115 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.920 don't think this ever would have happened if Undisclosed hadn't to have covered the case 116 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.960 and uncovered a lot of new information. So let's start talking about Mary Jane 117 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.679 van Gilder. She originally hailed from mary In County, West Virginia. She 118 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.279 got married at a very young age she was only seventeen years old to her 119 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:46.120 husband, James Van Gilder, and they had a total of five children. 120 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.039 Badly, they also had two stillborn children because Mary Jane gave birth to a 121 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.159 pair of twins in nineteen thirty five but wound up losing them. From what 122 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.720 everyone has heard, Mary Jane's marriage to James was not a happy one because 123 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:03.440 he was alleged to be an alcoholic and was supposedly abusive towards her. We 124 00:09:03.480 --> 00:09:07.559 really don't know this for sure. It's a lot of hearsay because there are 125 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.879 just so few firsthand witnesses who are actually around and are still alive to share 126 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:16.480 the story. So these are just kind of allegations we don't know they are 127 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.879 true. But by the end of nineteen forty three, when Mary Jane was 128 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.240 thirty two years old, she finally decided to separate from James. They've been 129 00:09:24.279 --> 00:09:28.759 living in a rural area in Marion County, but she decided to move into 130 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.919 an apartment in the town of Fairmont and got a job at a local restaurant. 131 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:37.639 And as you can imagine, this was a pretty big deal because women 132 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.679 were a lot more reluctant to separate from their husbands back in nineteen forty three. 133 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:45.720 Well, I think that speaks to the fact that her marriage must have 134 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:50.840 been truly, truly unhappy, and if there was domestic violence in the marriage, 135 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:54.519 and you also have to think that this is a woman who was contending 136 00:09:54.600 --> 00:10:01.480 with a major, major trauma of having birth two babies that died like those 137 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.720 twins died, and the thing, now we understand the psychology of that's so 138 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:11.240 much better. But back in those days, it would just be like you 139 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:13.360 better move on, right. And I don't know what they would do in 140 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.159 hospitals for the grieving process, if they would give them the bodies or they 141 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.399 let them have time. I know now they do, but back then they 142 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:24.960 may have just taken them away and been like, we'll never speak of them, 143 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.240 or we won't name them. And I think that that could weigh so 144 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.159 heavily. And when you don't have that support system and you have a partner 145 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:37.679 who is an alcoholic, who is potentially violent, I can't even imagine the 146 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.559 toll that that would take, especially when you're raising five children. That's a 147 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:46.480 lot of mouths to feed. So for her to walk away and say I'm 148 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:50.120 done, I would rather support myself and my babies than have you in my 149 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.440 life, I think that is a bold move and it truly speaks to the 150 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:58.360 state of their marriage exactly. And I mentioned that she got married at age 151 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:03.159 seventeen, which might seem mind blowing today, but it was far more common 152 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:07.600 back then for women to get married before they even left thirteen years But here's 153 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:11.120 kind of another strange story. I don't know exactly when they found this out, 154 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.399 but it turned out that one of Mary Jane's children, I think the 155 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:18.080 youngest one, was not actually James's, because she had an extramarial affair with 156 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.519 a man named Delbert Calgar, who had I think done work on the family's 157 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.919 property. And James apparently found out about this, and to his credit, 158 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:31.399 he still wound up raising the child even though he found out it wasn't his. 159 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:37.039 Well, what makes the story even crazier is that after Mary Jane went 160 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.799 missing and they got divorced, James wound up getting remarried to Delbert's sister, 161 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:45.639 Virginia Calgar, and they went on to have more children. So it's kind 162 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.919 of a weird thing that you would get married to the sister of a man 163 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:52.480 who was like the unofficial father of one of your children and had an affair 164 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.679 with your wife, you married your adopted son's aunt. Like it's a little 165 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:03.320 it is, yeah, I mean, we don't know many specific details about 166 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.720 what this was like because there are very few firsthand witnesses, but as far 167 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.480 as you know, James and Virginia did stay married I think for as long 168 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.399 as they both were alive, so I guess it was a happier marriage than 169 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:18.600 his one to Mary Jane in the long run. Even though Mary Jane was 170 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.919 living in an apartment in town, all the five children still stayed on the 171 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:26.759 property with James and she still kept in touch. But at some point in 172 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.320 early nineteen forty four, she decided to travel over two hundred and fifty miles 173 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:37.000 to the town of Shelby, Ohio, and surprisingly, she did not tell 174 00:12:37.080 --> 00:12:39.320 anyone she was going to do this beforehand. She did not even tell her 175 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.320 children, and they only found out about it when she started sending letters to 176 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.440 them saying that, Hey, I'm now moving in another state. I've got 177 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:52.679 a job with the Shelby Army Air Force Depot manufacturing aircraft supplies because World War 178 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:56.440 Two was still going on. But I know that everyone was taken by complete 179 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:01.960 surprise because she just decided to relocate and start living on her own without telling 180 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.480 it anyone. Do we know if she was an impulsive person, if this 181 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:09.919 would be typical or atypical type of behavior. I mean, it seems at 182 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:15.519 the time, and I don't want to characterize somebody leaving their husband as being 183 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:20.240 impulsive, but at that time period, it could be described as such because 184 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.240 it would be like, what are you going to do and how are you 185 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.120 going to support your children? And from the sounds of it, she was 186 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.960 walking away not being able to have her children living with her, and for 187 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:33.639 a mother, that would be really difficult, especially knowing you're leaving your children 188 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.240 with an alcoholic. If we're to believe that he truly was an alcoholic, 189 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:41.399 somebody with a substance use disorder, we would say nowadays it is something that 190 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.320 would be really difficult to grapple with because you're doing what's best for you, 191 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:50.559 because you're trying to protect yourself, but you will then have to worry about 192 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:52.919 your children being in that environment and not being with you. So it's a 193 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:58.039 really complex situation. It is, yeah, because we don't really know her 194 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:01.600 mindset when she did that. As you know that, even though James was 195 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.039 alleged to be abusive towards Mary Jane, I haven't heard any stories about him 196 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.440 being abusive towards his children. I mean, as possible he was, and 197 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.279 we just don't know that information, but I haven't heard anything about him being 198 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.679 so bad that his children wanted to estrange from them. So maybe Mary Jane 199 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:20.639 thought that things would be okay if he left the children for him to raise. 200 00:14:20.440 --> 00:14:24.000 But she stayed in Shelby, Ohio for about a year, and she 201 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:28.600 did start staying in contact with her children, particularly your oldest daughter Anime, 202 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:33.320 who was thirteen years old at the time. She would send them letters, 203 00:14:33.440 --> 00:14:37.440 clothing, and war bonds. But by the time nineteen forty five year old 204 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:41.759 around, things got a bit unusual where Mary Jane suddenly wrote to Anime and 205 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:45.360 said, could you please send me back the war bonds, which kind of 206 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.799 implies that maybe she needed money badly at that point, and I think a 207 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.240 couple weeks later she did mail one war bond worth twenty five dollars back to 208 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:56.919 Anime, but this would turn out to be the last contact they ever had. 209 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.919 In February of nineteen forty five, Mayor Jane officially filed a petition for 210 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:07.720 divorce, accusing her husband of extreme cruelty and gross neglect of duty. And 211 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:13.000 we know that that same month she requested a transfer into the labor equipment pool 212 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.399 at the Shelby Army Air Force Depot to get a job as a high lift 213 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.360 and fork operator. But then on March the eighth, she just abruptly quit 214 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.639 her job, and we didn't know the reasons because they just kind of looked 215 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.840 at her original personnel file and all she wrote for reasons was added household duties. 216 00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:33.519 And this was the last time she was confirmed to be alive because after 217 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:35.720 she quit her job, she caught off all contact with her husband and her 218 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:41.240 children and they never heard from her again. And I know that in November 219 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.320 of that year, James filed for divorce. He responded to the divorce petition, 220 00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:48.840 but because Mary Jane and her lawyer never responded the petition, the divorce 221 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.279 was granted and he was awarded full custody of all five of their children. 222 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:58.559 Wow, I mean everything pre Internet seems like it was so much easier for 223 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:04.120 people to just disappear and to have there be not like its accountability on the 224 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.919 part of law enforcement, because nobody's going in and being like, hey, 225 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.840 this person is missing. But it's just people can slip through the cracks so 226 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.639 much easier. And I've got to say, I think it's so interesting that 227 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.840 she was going to have a job as like a forklift operator. I love 228 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:23.159 that Mary Jane was challenging gender norms at the time. Because that would be 229 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.159 a job that would be like an atypical job for a woman, would it 230 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:30.799 not at that time? Oh, definitely not no, And she it sounded 231 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.000 like she had a good performance there while working at the depot, and it 232 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:38.039 was just a very unusual situation. She was a single woman living on her 233 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:42.120 own in a town she was not familiar with working a man's job. And 234 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:47.720 that's the thing is that because there were so few people who by the time 235 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.720 this case got publicity, who were still alive to share their experiences with Mary 236 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.639 Jane while she was living in Shelby, we really don't know all that much 237 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.120 about her life there, but it sounds like she was doing pretty well for 238 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.799 herself. But they all knew that because the war was coming to an end, 239 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:06.599 that the depot was probably going to start laying off people eventually. So 240 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:10.000 they had theories at the time that maybe she just knew that her days were 241 00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:15.079 numbered so she decided to quit anyway. But she pretty much just disappeared after 242 00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.519 that, and they could not find any paper trail for her. And when 243 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.319 you say laying off people, you really mean laying off women. Yeah, 244 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.119 probably, Yeah, they would probably even the first people to be laid off 245 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.160 because the men were all out there fighting the war, so they hired a 246 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.640 lot of women. But once they returned home, then those jobs would go 247 00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:36.240 to them. Probably. Yeah. So by the time the nineteen fifties rolled 248 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.519 around, Anime was in her twenty she became an adult, so she started 249 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:44.519 wanting to find out what happened to her missing mother. But the problem is 250 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.920 that, as you know, a lot of the time, many decades ago, 251 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:52.119 the police were reluctant to file missing persons reports if there was no hard 252 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.440 evidence of foul play. They would often give off the excuse that they just 253 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.519 decided to run away on their own, and they were an adult, so 254 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.920 they had a right to do so if they wanted to cut off all contact. 255 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.960 But another night may here was just jurisdictional issues because she was a resident 256 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:11.599 of West Virginia, she was living in Ohio, and who was going to 257 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.799 handle the missing person's report? I mean, she presumably left Ohio, but 258 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.160 nobody really knew for certain. They couldn't track that down, and Anime even 259 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:22.200 at one point wrote to the FBI seeing if they could assist him, but 260 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:27.079 they said, we do not have the jurisdiction to over an open investigation because 261 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.559 this is not a federal crime. We don't know if she was kidnapped and 262 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:33.839 brought over state lines, so there was pretty much nothing they could do. 263 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:40.039 They could not get an official investigation launched, so everyone just kind of moved 264 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.960 on with their lives, where James got remarried and had more children, and 265 00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:47.799 all the children grew up, and I know that this was one of those 266 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:52.839 things that the family just never spoke about, where James was reluctant to talk 267 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.440 about his missing ex wife. They knew it was a bad sign though. 268 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:59.359 When Mary Jane's mother passed away in nineteen sixty three, when she didn't show 269 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:00.960 up to attend the funeral, they thought, Okay, this is bad. 270 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.200 She's either dead or she wants nothing to do with her family at all. 271 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:08.680 If she's not going to resurface to attend her own mother's funeral, what a 272 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:14.000 nightmare for the family. It sounds like a real legal game of hot potato. 273 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:17.519 It's like not it not it not it Like we're not going to take 274 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.440 the case, and we're not going to and the jurisdictional issues end up happening 275 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.160 where nobody takes it. Nobody's looking into it rather than deciding Okay, well 276 00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.279 maybe we should look at Ohio and see who was she associated with, who 277 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.519 was she close to, did she have a significant other, was she dating 278 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.079 anyone? Any entanglements? Could they not have looked into that? And then 279 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.920 if they had an idea of maybe where she went from there, then they 280 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.559 could figure out who would then investigate from there. But it feels like the 281 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:51.519 family was failed here in that somebody should have looked into it somewhere along the 282 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:56.880 way. And then I'm sure everybody at her mother's funeral were probably expecting that 283 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.599 she would stroll up and that you'd see her and it would be like this 284 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.119 big reunion, like, oh, we've gone so long without seeing you, 285 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:08.200 where have you been? And everyone's tearful but so happy to be reunited. 286 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:12.680 And then when she doesn't show up, it's like the hard reality hits. 287 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.599 She's probably never coming back. Yeah, And that's pretty much how they felt. 288 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.559 And I know that James died in nineteen eighty five, he never got 289 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:26.680 to find out what happened to Mary Jane. And shortly thereafter the family's home 290 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.680 burned down because of a chimney fire. And what was sad is that this 291 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:33.480 destroyed all the letters that Mary Jane had sent to Anime over the years, 292 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:38.359 so they literally had no documentation for and we're pretty much just going by Anime's 293 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:44.200 memories about what she said. So when they opened an investigation like decades later, 294 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:45.960 it's not like they could look at any of the old letters for clues 295 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.079 and stuff to try to figure out what might have happened to her. It's 296 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:53.960 just really unfortunate when it comes to house fires. Back before, you know, 297 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:59.160 we could scan documents or put pictures online and they'd be stored in the 298 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:03.519 cloud. Nowadays, we've got copies of everything. Like if you've got a 299 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:07.039 hard copy of something like you might have it in like a file cabinet. 300 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:11.279 But for the most part, we've got everything online digitally. So I mean, 301 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:15.599 if like the Internet crashes were all screwed, yeah, but when it 302 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.359 comes down to those things like pictures and stuff, we're pretty much covered. 303 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:22.599 If there's a fire, we've got a backup. But back then, if 304 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.640 your house burned down, all of your memories could burn down with it. 305 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:32.640 And when your mother's she's gone, she's disappeared, and it seems like the 306 00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:37.200 probability is she's most likely to cease because she hasn't shown back up. To 307 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:40.759 think that all of her letters are then gone, like that little bit of 308 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:45.160 your mother that you can hold onto and you can actually touch, it's something 309 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:49.200 tangible, and then to have that just turned to dust, I can't even 310 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:53.839 imagine how Anime felt. Oh yeah, it was very tragic for and thankfully 311 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:57.680 they did preserve a few old photos so they were able to use them when 312 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:02.519 they launched the missing persons and investigation decades later. But I have heard a 313 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:07.880 missing person's investigations where literally there are no surviving photos or maybe one faded out 314 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.960 photo of the victim. It's kind of sad when you go to the Charlie 315 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.640 Project and see a profile for someone who went missing like several decades ago, 316 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:18.160 and you can barely make out their face on the photograph and you realize that's 317 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.519 literally all that exists of them now. That's just so sad as you can 318 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:26.599 imagine. Because there was not an official missing person's investigation, this didn't get 319 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.519 any newspaper coverage at all. But it was not until two thousand and four 320 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:34.000 when one of Mary Jane's granddaughters was able to get an article published about her 321 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:38.480 disappearance in the Plymouth Journal in Ohio, and they said, if there was 322 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:44.440 anyone who remembers my grandmother from their time living in Shelby, please come forward. 323 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.000 And sure enough, she actually received a letter from a guy named William 324 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:52.839 King, who had lived in Shelby in nineteen forties and was only thirteen years 325 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.519 old at the time, and he said that his father and two brothers had 326 00:22:56.559 --> 00:23:00.880 worked with Mary Jane at the Army Air Force Stepo and their family were friends 327 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.759 with her. She often come over to have dinner with them and stuff. 328 00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:10.039 He didn't really have any insights about why she went missing. But it's pretty 329 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:14.319 crazy to think that William King is the only person who has ever shared his 330 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:18.319 story of his first hand experiences with Mary Jane during her one year living in 331 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:22.319 Shelby, because that's because he was a kid at the time. But pretty 332 00:23:22.359 --> 00:23:26.119 much by that point everyone else who had interacted with her had passed on, 333 00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:29.279 so there was just no one who could offer any insight into stuff like did 334 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:33.119 she have any relationships, was she dating anyone? How is her mood? 335 00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:36.759 And because William was so young, he didn't really have much insight into that. 336 00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:40.359 But it's just so crazy to think that he is pretty much the sole 337 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:45.319 account of Mary Jane's time living in Shelby. It's eerie, almost right to 338 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:51.480 think that she was there and all of these people interacted with her, But 339 00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:56.000 then all of these people are gone, they're most likely deceased, and the 340 00:23:56.039 --> 00:23:59.960 only person that remembers her is someone who was literally a child at the time, 341 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.400 and she came over to their house, like thank god that he actually 342 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:07.480 read this article and was like, okay, I'm going to write a letter 343 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:11.960 to her daughter. It was to Anime, right, it was actually a 344 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:18.119 granddaughter named Misty to Missy, and luckily the Misty had that connection to know 345 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:22.759 that somebody knew your grandmother and to know that she was there and she touched 346 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:29.640 people's lives. I think that there's there's something the concrete about that, right, 347 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.839 there's something real, Like she turns from being this ghost into being like 348 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.519 a person that's tangible that you can like reach out and touch, and you 349 00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.039 in essence, he's like fleshed her out. I'm sure for Misty exactly, 350 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.720 yeah, because it would have been crazy to think, you're wondering yourself, 351 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.000 what was she even in Shelby that entire time, Like we have no witnesses 352 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:52.480 to confirm that. But and this was another lucky break because I know that 353 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:56.440 when they launched a missing person's investigation, they wanted to find her military records 354 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.680 from this time period. But you may have heard, like during the nineteen 355 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:03.440 seventies that a lot of the military records for World War Two were kept at 356 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:07.920 the National Personnel Records Center in Over in Missouri. But then there was like 357 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:15.640 a huge fire which destroyed approximately sixteen to eighteen million military personnel records. So 358 00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:18.440 there was a big fear that they were never going to find Mary Jane's record. 359 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:23.160 But during his investigation, Adam Turner learned that even though a lot of 360 00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.359 the military records were at this facility, the civilian personnel records for World War 361 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.839 Two were actually kept the National Archives in Saint Louis, and he was able 362 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:36.839 to retrieve it. And this is the only reason we have this information about 363 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:41.359 her time at the depot and her promotion to a forklift operator and a decision 364 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.480 to leave in March of nineteen forty five, because when he started the investigation, 365 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.160 he had nothing but a bunch of photographs. But as I'm going to 366 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.480 say later on, this military record would contain a clue that eventually led to 367 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:57.079 the case being resolved. Adam Turner like, let me just give credit where 368 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.920 credits due. He sounds like, are real bad at Yes he is, 369 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.359 Yes, he is amazing, Like he is the ultimate example of a police 370 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:08.039 officer who gives one hundred ten percent to every case he covers, no matter 371 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.359 how old it is. And he finally got assigned to the case in April 372 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:18.599 of twenty eighteen, because that's when Mary James's granddaughter, Mindy Wilson finally decided, 373 00:26:18.039 --> 00:26:21.960 let's try to get a missing person's report file. Let's see if we 374 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:25.000 can find out what happened to her. And I also got to give a 375 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.119 lot of credit to Lance Combs, who is the chief of the Shelby Police 376 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.559 Department, because he allowed it. He pretty much decided some police chiefs would 377 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.960 probably say, we're not going to waste time and resources on a missing person's 378 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.119 case that's over seventy years old, but he gave permission for Adam Turner to 379 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.759 take it on and use whatever resources he had to kind of look at it. 380 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.880 And Adam like, of course, because he's an active detective, he 381 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.519 had a lot of other work to do, so he often did a lot 382 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:56.039 of investigating for Mary Jane's case on his own time and used his own money 383 00:26:56.480 --> 00:27:00.279 to create his own travel expenses to do stuff to work on the case, 384 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.680 but because he knew that it would be very difficult to balance this with his 385 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:07.240 other work while he was on the job, but he said he became very 386 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:11.640 passionate about it and says that if there's any evidence out there, I'll find 387 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:14.920 it and I'll try to get this case solved. I just love to hear 388 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:22.079 it because we cover so many cases where law enforcement just everything is a mess, 389 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:27.039 whether it's the coroner or the police or the prosecutors. We're often dealing 390 00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:32.799 with unsolved cases, and a lot of times that can be things like the 391 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:37.200 police just not doing their jobs, some kind of misconduct. There can be 392 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.319 allegations of conspiracies. We run the full gamut. So to actually hear that 393 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:47.559 we've got investigators, we've got a chief of police, we've got we've got 394 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:51.200 Adam Turner, and we've got Lance Combs, the chief of police, who 395 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:56.880 actually really seem to care about Misty and her plight and really want to get 396 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.599 Mary Jane's case solved. I just love to see it because we don't see 397 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:03.759 it that often when we cover cases. Yeah, I was about to say 398 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:06.839 that though we've done so many cases on this podcast where one of the main 399 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:11.200 reasons they are still unsolved is because of bad police work or lazy police work, 400 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:14.400 or a corruption. But it just kind of blew my mind to see 401 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:18.200 this guy get so passionate about solving a case that most other officers would be 402 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:19.920 like, I'm not touching this one because I've got nothing to work with. 403 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:25.000 Yeah, I'm sure a lot of police chiefs would look at it and be 404 00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:26.640 like, well, what's our payout for this? Right, this isn't a 405 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.599 recent case, so you're not going to have public pressure in the way that 406 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:36.240 you would if it was a murder or disappearance of somebody that had happened recently. 407 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:38.279 So to go, Okay, we're going to do this solely for the 408 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:41.839 fact that, sure, you get to close a case if you solve it, 409 00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:45.680 but they had to know the probability was low going into it. You're 410 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.319 really and truly doing it for the family. So that just speaks so highly 411 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:53.559 of this whole police department. Oh exactly. And also, even if they 412 00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:57.000 don't solve it, they're just ensuring that Mary Jane has not been lost to 413 00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:03.160 history because since he took on the investigation, her profile page was finally being 414 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:06.839 added to websites like the Charlie Project, the Dough Network, and NamUs. 415 00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:11.880 Because if you did a Google search on Mary Jane van Gilder pre twenty eighteen, 416 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:14.839 you probably would have gotten nothing, but at least now when you do 417 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.319 a search for you were seeing her photograph and all her statistics on the missing 418 00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:22.880 Person's website, so you knew that people remembered her. Of course, because 419 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.119 Adam Turner did not have a lot to work with, he tried looking through 420 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:30.880 any leads that he could, and that involved going through the find Grave website 421 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.759 to see could there be any candidates here who were buried anywhere or any Jane 422 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:40.279 does who have a potential to possibly be Mary Jane, And he came across 423 00:29:40.359 --> 00:29:44.079 this Jane Doe, who was found dead in Preble County, Ohio on May 424 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:47.359 the twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight. Her skull had been found in a 425 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:52.400 wooded area by a group of children and they eventually found her decomposed body nearby, 426 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.880 but the coroner cannot determine the exact cause of death, but the victim 427 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.160 was estimated to be between thirty to fifty years old, and the victim they 428 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:03.279 thought that she had been dead for about ten to fifteen years, and they 429 00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:08.079 have theorized that maybe she was buried in a shallow grave because before they discovered 430 00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:11.920 the remains, there had been a heavy rainstorm, so it could have caused 431 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.079 the remains to surface and wash up, and that's how she was finally found. 432 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.799 But because she cannot be identified, the victim was buried as a Jane 433 00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:25.160 Doe in the town of Eton, and because Eaton is not all that far 434 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:29.799 from Shelby, and there were some compelling similarities between the Jane Doe and Mary 435 00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:33.480 Jane, Officer Turner contacted the Preble County Coroner's office to see if they can 436 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:38.440 make arrangements to exhume the remains and extract DNA, and he pretty much, 437 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:42.119 Adam pretty much had the mindset that it's a long shot. It may not 438 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:45.680 be Mary Jane. But even if if this lea turns out to go nowhere, 439 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:51.000 we're going to exume a Jane Doe and potentially identify her and offer a 440 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:55.720 potential resolution for another family. So this is totally worthwhile. I'd love to 441 00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.599 see it. It's nice to see that. Adam Turner is like, okay, 442 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.960 well, if we get the resolution that we want, that we can 443 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:06.519 tell Misty, this is what happened to your grandmother, then great. But 444 00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:10.279 if not, there's another family out there who doesn't know where their loved one 445 00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:14.359 went. And if we can find DNA that matches and we can let them 446 00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.759 know, then we get to give closure or resolution to someone. And I 447 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:22.400 think after so many years, because it's been so many years, you're going 448 00:31:22.440 --> 00:31:26.480 to be giving it to like grandchildren, and there would always be that lore 449 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.200 within a family of what happened to Grandma, you know, like everybody would 450 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.440 talk about it, and whether or not it would be like a secret that 451 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.039 we aren't supposed to bring it up because it upsets people, or it's something 452 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:41.960 that's talked about openly. No matter the way the family communicates it, it's 453 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:45.440 something that's going to hang really heavy over a family. So to be able 454 00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.640 to actually have some answers, it would be such a powerful thing, oh 455 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.640 exactly. And in this case it would eventually turn out that there were answers 456 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:59.720 for two families, which is quite amazing. So the exit mation took place 457 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.920 in August of twenty nineteen, and what was crazy is that when they opened 458 00:32:02.960 --> 00:32:07.680 the casket, they found some remains, but the skull and the mandible were 459 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:10.400 missing, and no one knew what they were. But it was theorized that 460 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:14.799 they had been donated to a local public school, as apparently this was a 461 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:19.400 common practice for remains found back during that time period. But I don't know 462 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.279 if they ever did find the skull, but they were hoping that they would 463 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.759 take DNA and compare it from the DNA from Mary Jane's surviving relatives. But 464 00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:31.680 unfortunately, because the remains were so degraded after all this time, the DNA 465 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:37.440 strand was broken. So when I released my Trail Went Cold episode back in 466 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.200 September of twenty twenty, this was still in a holding pattern because they didn't 467 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:45.079 have enough viable DNA evidence, so we didn't know if they were getting able 468 00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:50.599 to be able to determine if this Jane Doe was Mary Jane. And spoiler 469 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.480 alert, it did not turn out to be Mary Jane. But we have 470 00:32:52.559 --> 00:33:00.119 a two for one special here because this victim was also eventually identified. Well, 471 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.000 at least you've got some closure here and to be able to get a 472 00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:07.079 resolution on who this person is to be able to let them rest in peace 473 00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:14.880 and let their family know what happened. That is a huge, huge accomplishment. 474 00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:17.400 So Adam Turner must have been really happy. Although it's not the case 475 00:33:17.400 --> 00:33:22.359 that he wanted to solve with Mary Jane, I'm sure that he was elated 476 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.720 that somebody's getting a resolution. Oh yeah, because from my conversations with him, 477 00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:30.440 he is very passionate about identifying decendents John and Jane does. He just 478 00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:35.519 thinks it's so sad that there can be people buried and you don't know who 479 00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.200 they are, and their families out there may not have been able to figure 480 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:42.599 out what happened to him. And he even told me that this cemetery where 481 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.160 the Preble County Jane Doe is buried, he thinks that there might be some 482 00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:50.519 decedents buried under there who don't have any grave markers or tombstones and have just 483 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.319 been lost to history. And that just made me think, like, how 484 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:58.039 many unidentified people are buried throughout the United States that we don't even know about 485 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:01.480 because they have no grave marker? Oh yeah, and like Popper's graves, 486 00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:07.720 and would they stack people in certain places we just don't know And I think 487 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.119 it's such a beautiful thing to be able to give somebody back their identity after 488 00:34:12.159 --> 00:34:16.480 it's been lost and nobody knows for sure what happens, you know, after 489 00:34:16.519 --> 00:34:21.760 we die. But if somebody is sticking around and wondering, like am I 490 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:23.320 ever going to be discovered? Are they ever going to know? It's me? 491 00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:27.760 Well, my family ever know what happened to me? At least then 492 00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:31.280 their spirit can rest easy, exactly. And as we're going to find out 493 00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:36.159 here, somebody was identified who had been lost to history for a really long 494 00:34:36.199 --> 00:34:39.079 time, but now their memory has finally been preserved. Well, it was 495 00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:44.639 not until twenty twenty two when the Shelby Police Department got in contact with an 496 00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:52.400 organization called Moxie Forensic Investigations, who specialize in providing investigative genetic genealogy services. 497 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:57.000 And as you know, genetic genealogy has led to the identification of so many 498 00:34:57.199 --> 00:35:00.320 John and Jane does over the past six years. And it was sent to 499 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:07.000 a place called inter Mountain Forensics, a DNA testing laboratory located in Salt Lake 500 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:09.880 City, Utah. And they pretty much were the type of people where even 501 00:35:09.920 --> 00:35:15.079 though the DNA strand had been broken on these remains, they said, we 502 00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:17.639 can't do it. If there's anyone who can still manage to extract a DNA 503 00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:22.519 sample from degraded remains, it would be them, and the procedure would cost 504 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:28.440 five thousand dollars. But the full funding was actually provided by business called Criminal 505 00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:32.800 Coffee Company, which is run by Stephanie Harlow and Derek Lavassar from the Crime 506 00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.159 Weekly podcast and YouTube show. And I know you've listened to them, right, 507 00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:43.000 Oh yeah, I've heard them talk about Preble County dough To on their 508 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:45.280 podcast. But I think this is a different person. Where they thought it 509 00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:49.280 was a woman, that it was actually a man. Yep, that would 510 00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.719 be correct. It's the same one, the same one. Yep. Okay, 511 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:55.559 okay, yep. They were able to finally extract some usable DNA and 512 00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:00.199 build a DNA profile, and early on they had found some male DNA on 513 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:04.280 the remains and they figured, well, it might have been there through cross 514 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.639 contamination, or it might have belonged to Jane Doe's killer, But nope, 515 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.719 that was because the Jane Doe was actually a John Doe, as gender had 516 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.800 been misidentified because this was the late nineteen sixties and forensics were not as advanced, 517 00:36:17.280 --> 00:36:22.239 and I guess the coroner mistakenly thought that this victim was a female because 518 00:36:22.280 --> 00:36:27.360 of its small stature and it even the corner even said that we believe the 519 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.639 victim might have been pregnant and given birth to a child at one point. 520 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.599 But as we're about to find out, they could not have been more wrong. 521 00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.719 Wow, that is crazy because I wasn't really aware of the details of 522 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:44.559 the case, but I've heard Derek and Stephanie talk about it in different episodes 523 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.440 and how it used to be called she was called Preble Penny. Yes, 524 00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:52.000 well they formally thought was as she he was called Preble Penny, but is 525 00:36:52.039 --> 00:36:55.960 now called Preble p and that through Criminal Coffee they were able to fund that. 526 00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:01.679 So just again talking about podcasts are able to make a difference through their 527 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:06.719 outreach and through their fundraising. It's just it's so incredible. Good for Derek 528 00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:08.880 and Stephanie. Yeah, this was excellent. This is one of their crowning 529 00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:14.440 achievements. So was officially announced. They had a press conference in November of 530 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:19.679 twenty twenty three where the Preble County Penny or Preble County John Doe was officially 531 00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:23.960 identified as a young man named Albert Alan Frost, and as you can imagine, 532 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.719 Albert was completely lost to history. He had never been reported missing. 533 00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:30.519 He had just one of those people that just vanished off the face of the 534 00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:36.400 earth. But here's his backstory. He was originally born in Hamilton, Ohio, 535 00:37:36.440 --> 00:37:39.239 in nineteen thirty five and was the youngest of eight children. He was 536 00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:44.559 a veteran who served in the military. He was apparently very proud of it 537 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:49.039 because he would wear his army jacket around virtually all the time. But he 538 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:52.480 was also known as a shy but very rebellious individual who was kind of a 539 00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:55.880 drifter. He would just kind of jump from place to place where he would 540 00:37:55.880 --> 00:37:59.480 go and stay with the relative for a while and crash with them, and 541 00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:02.280 then he would just move on his way. So he pretty much lived a 542 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:07.480 transient lifestyle. And one of his relatives, let me just see here, 543 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.400 his grand niece, said that in retrospect, she thinks that Albert might have 544 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:15.079 been on the autism spectrum because he was so shy and socially awkward with people. 545 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:20.079 But back in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, nobody knew what autism 546 00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:22.400 was. So he went diagnosed and they just kind of thought, well, 547 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.480 here's a odd little Albert, kind of the black sheep of the family, 548 00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:30.679 just doing his own thing. Well, we think of like mental health where 549 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:35.599 we're at now versus the way people were treated back then. There was little 550 00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:40.000 empathy and little understanding for medical professionals. I mean, unless you were fortunate 551 00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:44.760 enough to have access to like the greatest psychological care at the time. But 552 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:50.360 even if you're going to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, chances are good that 553 00:38:50.559 --> 00:38:53.320 you aren't going to be properly diagnosed, nor are you going to get the 554 00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:58.559 support that you need. But where we're at now is such a different place. 555 00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:01.159 So to be able to look back and to think how people must have 556 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:07.639 suffered if they were dealing with autism, spec and disorder or any other diagnosis, 557 00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:13.880 to be able to to not have that ability to have people understand you 558 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.719 in that way, and to have that sense of community that people have access 559 00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:22.000 to now. There's plenty of different groups. You can talk to people that 560 00:39:22.239 --> 00:39:25.199 are very similar to you in that they are dealing with the same types of 561 00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:30.760 disorders and they just didn't have that back then. So to be labeled as 562 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:34.679 you know, odd Albert, which I think a lot of family members were 563 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.639 back then. They are just quote unquote crazy or like the unhinged one. 564 00:39:38.119 --> 00:39:43.559 And I think that that was typical, like every family had a quote unquote 565 00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:47.280 crazy person, and they were just people with likely dealing with mental illness. 566 00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:52.840 It just weren't properly diagnosed. So this is a good time to bring an 567 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:54.920 in to part one. Join us again next week when we release part two 568 00:39:54.960 --> 00:40:00.559 about the unexplained disappearance of Mary Jane van Gilder Vin, do you want to 569 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:02.920 tell us a little bit about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes. The 570 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.480 Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three years now, and we offer these 571 00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:13.199 standard bonus features like early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers 572 00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.039 and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon. 573 00:40:16.280 --> 00:40:22.159 If you join our five dollars tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus 574 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:25.639 episodes in which I talk about cases which are not featured on the Trail Went 575 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:30.559 Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon. And if you join our 576 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:34.400 highest tier tier three, the ten dollar tier, one of the features we 577 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:39.199 offer is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries where you can 578 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:45.480 download an audio file and then boot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon 579 00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:50.000 Prime or YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background, 580 00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:53.559 where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. 581 00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:58.880 And incidentally, the very first episode that I did a commentary track over was 582 00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:01.880 the episode featuring in this case. So if you want to download a commentary 583 00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:06.760 track at which I make more smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be 584 00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:08.840 sure to join Tier three. So I want to let you know a little 585 00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:13.840 bit about the jeweles and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of 586 00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.159 The Path Went Chili. We've got our Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always 587 00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.960 over an hour, so they're not very mini, but they're just too short 588 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:23.599 to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those, So we 589 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:27.760 hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link them in the show notes. 590 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:30.119 So I want to thank you all for listening, and any chance you have 591 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.639 to share us on social media with a friend or to rate and review is 592 00:41:34.679 --> 00:41:38.159 greatly appreciated. You can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com You 593 00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:42.760 can reach us on Twitter at the pathwin. So until next time, be 594 00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.000 sure to bundle up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. 595 00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:50.360 Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy