Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and
we have a great one tonight. We have a we have a Canada show,
a truce with Canada. So we have Jordan Bonaparte is filling in for
ala Jandro Rojas, who actually became ill today and he wrote me just a
few minutes ago saying he can't make the show. So I have Jordan Bonaparte
from Canada. Our guest also him Ja Benaias, is also from Canada.
So we'll call this the Canadian Truce Show. And I want to thank everyone
that supports the show. We are over on KGr A Radio and we are
also on YouTube, and we are live on our website which is podcast ufo
dot com and anyone wants to go check that out. There are some blogs
over there. We're looking for a blog writer if anyone's interested in doing that,
and so check out podcast ufo dot com. Also there's a mailing list
there so you can see what our upcoming guest is. We do not abuse
the mailing list. We only send out once a week with the upcoming guests
and also the times that the show is live. And speaking of that next
week, my guest should be if his card doesn't breakdown. Is Chris O'Brien.
He's going to be heading out. It's going to stay at my guest
house. We're going to do a in studio show here next week, so
that should be fun. Chris is a lot of fun. And our guest
tonight is MJ Benaias. We're going to talk a little bit more about him
when we get ready. I want to thank everyone that supports a show.
Anyone can do that and that information is on podcast ufo dot com and Jordan,
welcome to the show. Thanks so much for filling in. Well,
when duty calls Martin, I'm here for you. But no, this like
the Canadian You call it a Canadian truce, but it's me and MJ against
you, so there's more like a takeover. Oh no, I couldn't turn
that opportunity down. Yeah. Yeah, Well we'll talk about tariffs when m
JA gets on. But anyway, thanks so much for filling in. And
I know this is last minute. Did you get a chance to check out
any UFO news to bring us today? Yeah? Well, really what I
see discussed online in terms of UFO news for the last few days, Maybe
this isn't a UFO story, and it's a little political, but there's been
a lot of talk among UFO circles about Trump's reason announcement to form the Space
Force. I've seen, of course, conspiracy theories that his attention to the
space to the Space Force may have undercurrent within the UFO culture. But I
don't know. I would love to sit down and talk to him about about
his thoughts on this, but there's something going on up there that has him
concerned, it seems. Well. Yes, I saw when he was doing
this a little bit about it that it's he wants it as a part of
the armed forces actually, which is pretty interesting. And I know that nothing
can be done without congressional approval, but it still is interesting that he's he
actually has interest in space. So and uh, you know, a little
while ago there was an announcement that we can go back to the Moon,
which I think is awesome. I think that would be great to get back
there and see what's happened in so many years ago. I think it was
nineteen seventy two or seventy three, is the last time we're on the moon.
So yeah, his announcement was to make it the sixth Division of the
Department in National Defense. I think I love the idea of money and attention
and science being directed towards the sky, but I think I would rather it
be spent in a different way than you know, defense and military. I
wish it was more just towards exploration. But I don't know what his plans
are or what his concerns are regarding our safety in the sky. But I
guess any any money spent towards that, I shouldn't say that. I would
like to say any money spent towards that means is a good thing for those
of us who are interested in this. But that said, there's probably some
nasty things you could do by building a space force or earning a space force.
Well, I know there's a there's like the Moon Treaty or something like
that. I know I looked into it quite a while ago, so I'm
not really up on it. But I know that the Moon is not supposed
to be used in any way for any type of military or any other for
anything other than exploration. I think the treaty, there's some type of treaty
that we signed um and I know it's against the stars. The star Wars
thing that came up when Reagan was in um, you know, against against
all that. I mean, if we start like arming ourselves in the uh
in space, I think that's who knows what that will lead to. So
um, I think being prepared is good, but arming in space, I
don't know exactly if that's such a good idea. It's only going to breed
more possible conflict in my opinion. Yeah, I just felt like in our
in our past, there was a bit of of course, there was the
whole Space Wars program, but a lot of there was a lot of competition
among the different world's powers, um to go into space, more so as
in an exploratory fashion, you know, the race to the Moon and these
sorts of things. I love that idea, but the race, the arms
race in the sky is a bit a bit darker of of of something to
think about, and it's maybe something that's better off left in science fiction works.
But that said, you know, safety is important being prepared for something
in the future. You know, there's a lot of different satellites and things
going on up there that I'm sure there's there's a national security concern you know,
behind all this, but I'd be curious to hear a more casual explanation
of what the plans are. And maybe that's something that'll come out in the
future. But I prefer to think that Donald Trump caught wind of an oncoming
UFO invasion or maybe he saw some upcoming Tom DeLong video that Tom hasn't released
us yet, and you know, and this got Trump's Trump's back up against
the wall. So we'll see. Maybe it'll be an exciting month. Yeah,
yeah, well, I know that's your sense of humor. A lot
of people are going to take you serious on that, but I think it's
I think, you know, I mean, there probably should be protocols.
You know, so far, nothing has really, as far as we know,
as attacked us in any type of way, at least in the last
you know, million years. But anyway, um, you know, I
don't think it's a bad idea to have some preparation to address something in case,
you know, we did have hostile incoming. It would be not a
bad idea to have something lined up. Just I don't know what if we
could possibly even protect ourselves, you know, if they could get here,
who knows what they could do, you know, yeah, exactly, it's
it would be it's Tom to prepare for a threat as vague as you know,
um extraterrestrial invasion, it would be it would be a little tricky that
I have a hard time believing that that's what his concern is or the government's
concern is with, you know, but the space for us. But you
know a lot of people if you if you run in some of the same
circles online that I do, and you read kind of some of the thoughts
people have about extra terrestrial life and it's interaction with our world, you know,
there's probably a lot of people who think that we should be prepared and
should be arming to defend ourselves when the time inevitably comes. But I guess
I just haven't seen evidence of that yet, right. Do you have anything
else that you were able to look at before the show? You know,
there wasn't. Yeah, as I browsed through the news, and really I
haven't seen a lot here in Canada. What I'm thinking about is the upcoming
shag Harbor Ufo Festival. The fifty first anniversary is coming up. We had
a great time there together last year. Martin. I don't imagine you plan
to go through that again. Well, I'll tell you one thing, I
would never ever do. And that's I would never ever ever drive again from
me, you know, you know, I don't blame you. That's a
that's a long drive and you had your little dog in the car. So
yeah, yeah, it's I can't remember. It seemed like it was sixteen
hundred miles or maybe maybe it wasn't that long, but it sure felt like
it. No, it's not going to help, but you're going to that,
I assume because it's not too far away from you, right, No,
No, just a couple hours. I'll definitely be there, and they've
got a great lineup this year. Chris Rotkowski, who's a friend of your
upcoming guest MJ's, is going to be speaking there and really looking forward to
that because he's, in my opinion, Canada's top researcher in the of the
UFO phenomenon. He publishes the Canadian UFO surve eh Year where he compiles the
statistics of the year's reports, so I'm really excited to see him speak.
Chris Stiles, who is kind of the man behind the Shag Harbor UFO incident,
will be there again this year, so it's going to be a great
time. But an idea that I had for you. Martin. You often
talk about having people staying in your guest house, and you know, and
you talk about it a lot. I know, you have a beautiful property
there. You should plan a little festival. Rate on your rate and your
property, you had your guest house, she could probably have, you know,
thirty fifty people up there star gazing. Well I do. I actually
do have like the place. Um part of the place was used for conferences
and there's a big ballroom. The only problem is the ceiling fell in,
so that's a little bit of a problem. Yeah that anyway, it is
fixed, but still it still needs a lot of work. But yeah,
it's It's something I thought of a look briefly, but I'm not sure if
I'll ever do something like that, but good thoughts. And you can even
have a journalist version where you have different journalists live streaming, and you could
have it almost like a web conference where people your listeners from around the world
could attend via the internet, and you can have podcasters, journalists, you
can have Alejandro there. Yeah, well you're you're you're the thinker, that's
for sure. So I really appreciate you coming on. I know it was
such short notice, and I really do appreciate you coming on. And when
is that up in Canada? Is another two months? Right? Yeah?
I think it's the first week of August. I believe. I wish I
knew the data, but it's yeah, yeah, yeah, it's I think
they're having it at the beginning of August. It's all online. If you
just got Google Shag Harbor Ufo Festival, you'll find the schedule and whatnot.
So it's it's all there. All right, excellent, okay, Jordan,
Well thanks a lot. I really appreciate it, especially in the last minute.
I mean just a couple of minutes ago. It seems like I called
you. So anyway, thanks, all right, I'll talk to you pleasure,
all right, you take care. I have a great time with m
JA. He's awesome, all right, thank you. All right. So
our guest m Ja Benias. He is a writer, a blogger and who
critically, philosophically examines the weird, the strange, and the anomalous. And
he's got a book he's putting together. We're gonna be talking about that coming
right up. So how are you doing. How are you doing, m
J? I'm doing really well. How are you? Thank you and thanks
so much for thanks so much for joining us. No, it's my pleasure,
I get me honest. This is one of my favorite UFO podcasts,
and I was really surprised when you took the leap and joined kgra A well
done, Mozeltop, Well well, thank you. Yes. I one of
the things I've always wanted to do. It's been important is to try to
get as much of an audience as I can out there, and so I
had thought about it for quite a while. And I can't believe I'm actually
simulcasting. I didn't know that could be done. But on YouTube it's a
great thing. It's not really that much more work, So it's all good.
So for the person, let's see, I think you were on about
ten or about ten months ago last time you were on, and so this
is your second visit. But for the person that is not aware of who
you are, would you mind filling everyone in? Sure? Yeah, I'm
just a humble UFO writer, blogger, journalist. I write for Mysterious Universe.
I have my own blog at tarabsca dot net. And my interest in
UFOs has been sort of is very old, and I've loved it as a
kid, I since I was a kid rather but um, right now,
the big project for me has been my first book. So that's sort of
been where I've been hiding for I think the last year or so. Oh
and can you can you tell us you did tell me a little bit about
it, but go ahead and tell the listener if you would, what that's
about. Sure, my book is is really about the UFO subculture or the
UFO community. That's really what my interest is. I'm all, you know,
the UFOs are fascinating, but for me, I think the people who
make up who make up the community that sort of engages with the UFO phenomenon,
that for me is really sort of the more fascinating thing. Um So
my book is basically, uh, you know, exploring different aspects of the
subculture. Um. I have sort of various interviews and individuals who have spoken
to me and told me their stories, and basically I'm sort of taking on
the sort of trying to develop a bit of a framework for how the UFO
subculture functions and and how it looks and what it is basically hopefully sort of
original and the first of its kind. Well, I think, you know,
there's been a lot of discussion about, say, for instance, pop
culture and UFOs, and so I'm sure it kind of follows along that.
But and people have talked about, you know, kind of almost like a
religious aspect to it and almost a cult following. And I do think you
do actually see that in certain circumstances, that there's you know, like a
cult following. And I'm not you know, I'm not pointing any fingers or
anything. It's just, uh, it does seem like, um, there
is part of that going on out there. No, I agree. I
think there's subcultures. It's incredibly complex, and there's a lot of nuance,
and I think really when we try to define, you know, who's a
member of the subculture or who's a member of the community, it's very difficult
to draw those lines and distinctions, especially since there's really no um there's really
no Ivory Tower, or there's no sort of established um, you know,
uh university, or there's no sort of established I guess paradigm that that sort
of says this is what the UFO subculture is, and it's sort of it's
encapsulated and and that's it. Um that doesn't exist. A colleague of mine
Ryan Sprague, who's UM, a UFO podcaster and author. He sort of
said, if you ever, you know, if you want to become a
youth, if you want to become a ufologist, I would you say,
spin around three times and touch your nose and you are one. Right.
So it's it's one of those it's one of those things where we're sort of
trapped in this weird world where we can't really draw a distinction or a line
as to who's a member and who isn't. And this is sort of what
this book tries to address. I seem to get a lot of people that
contact me that want to be on the show that UM I would consider UM
really far out on the fringe, and you know, and I don't.
I've had a few people on that are kind of out there and I kind
of let you know, the listening the audience take it up. But I've
noticed an upsurge in people contacting me trying to get on the show that you
know, claim that they've been, you know, living among aliens or on
another planet, or they are you know, star children, or you know,
things like that. It just seems like it seems to be growing.
UM. Are you noticing any trends for what's been happening or any upsurge or
anything. You know, I think this sort of always existed. I think
what's become obviously more prevalent is, you know, just the rise of the
Internet has allowed anyone to sort of tell a story. And really parsing through
all of those individuals and trying to figure out, you know, where do
we draw the line of truth and where do we draw the line of just
total nonsense is again really difficult, and a lot of it, like you
know, like you mentioned before, it sort of comes down to two sort
of a more religious or theological sense. You know, a lot of it
boils down to believe, do you you know, as a podcaster m and
a host believe in their story because fundamentally they won't have any evidence really to
present to you that suggests they are star children, or they've been living with
aliens on Mars or you know, with the reptilions or on the other side
of the moon. Ultimately, you don't they're not going to be able to
provide this apart from an anecdote. And and you know, this is sort
of good and bad, right, and this is maybe the beauty of the
UFO subculture in that it's sort of total anarchy. It's it's it's a total
chaotic mess and a total chaotic system. Um where um, you can't really
delineate. UM. I guess sort of truth from from fiction all the time.
I think at you know, common sense often will apply and well like
judgment calls based upon common sense. Um, but man, you know you
can't they can't prove it and you can't disprove it. And it's a it's
sort of strange and weird and beautiful all at the same time. I think,
Yeah, I know you mentioned Ryan earlier, and I know his book
was kind of along those that the line of this, you know, basically
exploring the psychology of the whole phenomena. And you know, I always have
to I have to keep myself in check, you know when I think about
this whole topic as well, and um, you know, I try not
to go out too far on the limb, but I also try to be
open minded. But I I have not like followed anyone. And I that's
the part where I think when people there's a difference between a fan and someone
following someone. I believe and I have seen there are people that kind of
have risen to the top of this field in certain ways, and some of
it being a little bit some of them being a little bit fringe, and
they have people defending them, which is very cult like in a way.
Indeed, I mean I have to be honest, you you know, as
a podcaster and again I've had this conversation with Ryan on his show, but
as a podcaster, as someone who has to you know, generate an audience,
you know, often we have to be careful sort of what we say,
right because ultimately, if you alienate, alienate, if you alienate someone
who has a big following, even though you know we can probably debate,
you know, whether they're committing fraud or not, you take a big risk.
And I have to be honest. I mean, you know, you're
going to have a whole assortment of audience members today. I'm sure that I
will probably say something and I will make someone upset because I said that their
favorite UFO expert or guru or channeler or um who knows is full of it?
Um. I don't want to, but sometimes it comes out UM so
um. Yes, you can't run that risk, right because ultimately the some
culture dictates whether you know, people listen to you or not. And um,
like you said, they have these cult like followings and they can muster
a lot of people to come after you and put you down and create fakebook
Facebook accounts and troll you and all that stuff. Yeah, which is quite
amazing. Yes, um um, anyone that follows my YouTube channel, we'll
see that there's Um. You know, I have a few trolls after me,
have been, and I just I just don't don't let it bother me.
I just have them as long as they're not saying anything racial or like
slandering any of my guests. Um. I usually don't even bother to look
at too many of the comments. Unfortunately, I just feel like it's not
a place I really want to go. Um. No, and you do
not engage, right, don't engage? Yeah right right? So but anyway,
it um, everyone is welcome to their opinion. But sometimes it makes
me wonder why why why someone gets so upset over something minor when they do
well. I think that's that's kind of the That's one thing the UFOs some
culture lends itself very well to is opinion and speculation. And that's fine.
I think speculation is great. I think it's awesome that we can sit here
and have literally philosophical conversations about the nature of the universe or the nature of
anomals, anomalous phenomena, or sort of esoteric concepts. I think that's that's
great. Um. I think when we start making truth claims, though,
and when we start saying, you know, the UFO phenomenon is x or
or this event over here is why without any evidence or without any concrete um
data to back it up, I think we run into problems. And I
think that this is where we sort of see this shift in the subculture.
Like you mentioned earlier, you know, are we noticing this uptick? I
think you're getting a lot of individuals who are saying a lot of things and
making a lot of claims um that they are are suggesting are true. And
unfortunately, people are buying into it. Right. You know, there's there's
snake oil sales salesman, and there's a lot of stupid people who are willing
to buy that snake oil as well. Um. And unfortunately you can have
someone, for example, say I have no evidence to support my claim,
but I was a soldier on Mars and time traveled and um, you know,
all of this stuff and provide no data whatsoever invidence to back it up.
And people believe them, um, and will buy their stuff and support
them and donate to their cause and and you know, give them money up
through Patreon or whatever and watch their show on Gaya and ultimately, UM produce
a lot of noise whereupon the signal such as your show I think gets lost.
Right, there's a lot of crap out there. And UM, that
was you that sent me the email last week, which email, I'm just
saying all this stuff you just said as a joke. I'm just joking with
you. Um. So we're ready to go help. What's that? Ye?
Yeah? Um, so we are ready to go into a break.
So we are on with m J. Benias and we're going to go on
this break and we'll be back in about three minutes and U so, UM
we're on podcast UFO and KGr Radio and again my guest is MJ. Manias
will be right back. All right, gentlemen, we're clear three minutes and
forty seconds in this break. Martin three minutes and forty seven you were real
closet you Oh wow, okay, J, great commentary, man, that
was spot on it's always refreshing to hear good common sense on those airwaves here,
Thanks very much. I can't imagine it's easy. With running kjr A,
you probably get a lot of interesting characters. Well, he's gone,
Well I'm here. I gotta be honest with you. There's times where I'm
ready to just start jamming pencils in my ears. Yeah. But the you
know, the well, I'll just say it. You know, the Corey
Goods, the David Wilcox, the you know the Besagio that none of them
are ever gonna find a place here. No, but there are some of
their like some of their fans might, right, And that's the inherent robin
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, like you still have a business to run.
At the end of the day, You still a business to run, right.
Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to keep everybody happy. It's just
do it, that's true. Yeah. Last week we had we had doctor
Bob gross On who had his theory on on Kexburg and he had a theory
also on Roswell and boy have I got a lot of email about that.
So what was this theory? Basically, his theory is that he thought it
was now there was some type of balloon um of that was coated with aluminum
and like a precursor to miler pet I can't I remember the long name of
it. So that he was basically thinking that it was that that actually crashed,
and actually was pretty convincing. But since that time, there's been a
couple of blogs have come out with you know, punching holes and saying that
he used you know, selective evidence for that. Well it's like this the
Nunited States Air Force, I think it was a ninety ninety six, was
it. Yeah, something out with this big, thick explanation that had nothing
to do with it, right, I mean, you know, developing my
large technology back then might have been a really big thing, which I don't
think it was so much. But you know, why wouldn't they just come
clean with that today when the ship's everywhere? It just didn't make any sense.
I'm back here chewing a hole through my seat, you know what I
mean. I just want to open this mic up and say, look,
man, but I can't do it. You know, I gotta sit back
and just let these guys do their thing. But well, everyone's hearing you
on YouTube. Now just let you annoy in my podcast. Well, good
because keep the conversation clean, safe for work. Yeah, oh okay,
okay, thank you for that, but um, you know, I just
it really it makes me wonder, you know, why the US Air Force
would go through so much trouble to still cover up something that's everywhere. Now
it's not top secret, it's not something that needs to be held back,
or they just don't care, like they're not talking about it because like literally
they just don't care about it, you know, Like does the if if
Roswell was Okay, see, I don't want to upset anyone, but just
for the sake of argument, let's say Roswell is nothing more than my lar
balloon technology that's beyond you know what it was in ninety forty seven. I
think we have only twenty seconds left, right, Okay, Well, they're
not going to come in and they're not gonna be like, hey, well
you know it is actually what it was, and they're gonna try and disprove
because they know that one's going to happen at the end of the day.
If they came out and said it's my arts does advanced technology you had in
forty seven, do you think the uful community would suddenly be like, oh,
yeah, no, they're right, you're right, that's right. Fine,
we accept this answer as the truth. Agreed, But that was an
awful big report that came out to cover up plastic right, true, right,
I'll give you that. So we're going back. We're thirty nine seconds
away. Thirty nine seconds, okay, thirty nine seconds, got it?
Okay, Yeah, Well it was an interesting theory, and you know,
it's another theory and that's I think that's the name of one of the blogs
another theory out there. Oh hey, look Ryan's in the chat room.
Hey, Ryan, Ryan Sprague. I love him rather Ryan. Yep.
Right, so he's uh, we'll have to say hi to him, and
we can take calls. Hopefully the calls will be working. We can take
them at the top of the hour. At the top of the hour.
So before the break, we were you were talking about different aspects of you
know, the we were talking about the different cult like um aspects of this.
Not to really name any names up, I have actually named a name
on this show before, Stephen. Great that that has caused me a lot
of trouble. So uh, but you know, there there are I think
on any aspect, like if you go into different parts of paranormal I'm sure
it's the same thing. You know, what is yours? Your aspect of
this book only focusing on the UFO topic, or is it other aspects as
well? Yeah, you know, it primarily focuses on the UFO community.
The problem is there's so much I guess sort of bleed through in regards to
the paranormal community in general, or some sort of other esoteric concepts that will
often blend into the UFO community. So I've been really struggling to try and
sort of delineate it. But at the end of the day, I just
don't know if you can all the time, and I think that that trying
to is making a lot of work for yourself, or you have to leave
certain ideologies and paradigms out of the UFO debate that you just don't want to
do. If you're doing sort of what I'm doing, which is just a
sort of a framework for the subculture, I can't say, you know,
people who experience poltergeist activity alongside UFO sightings. Um, you know, I
can't keep I can't keep the UFO sighting, but get rid of the polter
geist activity, right, because that's the that's their story. So I have
to be sort of kind of open to the possibility that that the UFO phenomenon
is more than sort of an extraterrestrial sort of physical nuts and bolts, I
guess idea, but it may involve aspects of the mystical or sort of interdimensional
or psychosocial or whatever. So I try to encapsulate sort of all of it.
But the book isn't just the book isn't really trying to map the subculture.
I think that that's that's that's a task that's impossible. I mean,
you can't really, I can't really do any subculture. You can't really sort
of say this is it, because ultimately those subcultures change quite quickly over time
and in a short amount of time. So the book is more about trying
to figure out how the subculture functions. And I think one way to look
at it, in the way I try to look at it in my book,
is that sort of people within the UFO subculture have sort of their feet
in two worlds. On the one hand, we go about our daily lives.
We buy Starbucks, we go to work, we raise our kids,
we cut our grass, and we sort of function like that we shop at
Walmart. UM. And then UM, on the other side, we have
this strange not fascination, but we have this this strange connection. Let's say
to this other world, this other world that that we're told does not exist,
right. Um. We're told that that UFOs are our delusion, UFOs
are our our hoaxes. UM, that UFOs are our total nonsense. UM.
But for some reason, as a community, we don't necessarily listen to
those messages. UM. And we we tend to I don't need the term
believe, but we tend to UM try to engage with that phenomenon in some
way. We talk about it, we debate over it, we speculate,
UM. And sometimes we you know, lecture at UFO conferences, and we
develop cult like environments UM, like your friend doctor Greer. So UM,
we sort of exist in these UM duel in this dualistic kind of world as
a community. UM. And and the book tries to figure out, how
how is that possible? How can we sort of go about our daily lives.
Yeah, at the same time believe in aliens or believe in interdimensional beings
and believe in flying saucers or black triangles or you know, wolves that can
be shot at point blank range and not die from nap and Kelleher's book The
Skinwalker, right, like these sort of odd paranormal phenomena that that show up
that don't make sense, Yet we have no problem going to buy, you
know, grass seeds so we can keep our lawns looking nice and pretty,
right, And I think that this is really the weirdness of the subculture.
It's not the people who believe in extraterrestrials that are weird at all. It's
the fact that we somehow continue to function in our lives with this I guess
awareness or this idea that we are maybe not alone at least in some way
in the cosmos or or interdimensionally, or or mystically or spiritually or whatever.
So, do you find that there is there a difference between a person that
has interest in this phenomena just out of plain interest, perhaps it's started by
science fiction, or someone they know may have had a sighting or something like
that. Is there a difference between that person and the person like myself that
actually had an unexplained sighting. Right, And again, this is another sort
of inherent problem, right, which I sort of aligned them A book is
what what is the UFO community. Can we say someone who just you know,
watches Ancient Aliens is not a member versus someone who's had an experience is
a member? Because the problem is, I would say there's a lot of
experiencers out there who would say they're not members at all. They've experienced something
strange, something animalists, they saw UFO, maybe they had a contact or
abduction experience, but they have chosen to never engage with the discourse. They've
chosen never to engage in the UFO debate, and they've just walked away from
it. Yes, are they members or are they not members? So what
is really the important aspect here versus someone who just watches Ancient Aliens and posts
on Facebook and has forum discussions and engages with that discourse, even though they're
sort of source materials typically flawed. What would they then maybe be part of
that discourse more so, you know, like we sort of dance around these
issues, and I think that it's difficult to delineate who is in and who
is not in. That is really the problem. Well, we have some
questions coming in from the chat, and I'll get to one of them,
But first of all, I just wanted to tell you quickly, and I
have told this story before on this show, but it still kind of blows
my mind. I'm I'm friends with someone that's on the Antiques road Show.
So he doesn't want to talk about it. He doesn't want to talk about
his experience book. When he was in college at Amherst, he was in
that there's some towers the dorms are in like these towers, and he was
like on the twenty third floor something with a bunch of his buddies. He
said, yes, we're drinking, but it wasn't an hallucination. Wasn't that
drunk. He just had a little bit of a buzz on and he said
this, all of a sudden, they noticed out this window, the scene
comes swooping in and they looked at it and it was shaped like a box,
like a perfect box. You know, it wasn't it wasn't you know.
It was like a square, almost like a cube, but rectangular,
and it had lights flashing all around it. And then he said they were
all just staring at it, and then it shot up in the sky and
he said, just then a fighter jet went toward it, but before it
could get anywhere near it the thing burst into five lights, and he said
the lights seemed to be reacting back and forth to each other. And then
by the time the jet got close to it, he said, the lights
just shot off. He said, so fast you couldn't hardly see it.
So I said, my goodness, I said, how do you feel about
that? I mean, that's amazing to change your life, he said,
I could give a you know what, he says, I don't care.
I could care less. And so there are those people, and so I
think that's kind of interesting that you're kind of including those people as well,
whether the subculture or where do they fit? And that's the problem, right,
like we don't know where they fit. I think fundamentally, I would
have to say that, you know, you need to try it because you
need to delineate somewhere, right, You need to have a line somewhere,
but it's tough to find all the time. I think that if if people
communicate about it, right, if there is some sort of discourse or debate
and they're they're engaging with that, then I think that they're part of the
community at least in some way. If they are not engaging at all,
if they've had a strange experience like your friend, and they've chosen to just
say forget it, I don't care, and they never talk about it again,
They never even think about it, you know. Can we say that
they're part of the community. Can we say that they're part of the subculture.
I think they're part of a community for sure, a community that's had
an experience, or a community that or a subculture that has had an almost
experience. But I wouldn't say they're really part of the conversation. Um.
And I think the conversation is really what the UFO subculture is. It's it's
the back and forth. It's the communication over the UFO phenomenon that is really
what shapes the phenomenon in a way. Right, Um, we create our
theories and our hypotheses, and that is really what kind of breeds life into
it because we can talk about it. Um. If we didn't do any
of that, Um, we would have a UFO sub culture at all.
Right, it's all about the communication. Interesting, and um, how does
this fit into like to say, when people the people that go to conferences
or they you know, I mean, is that does that is that all
part of this too? Like someone puts out some money to actually travel and
go and be there at these for sure. I think I think I think
that's a whole separate I think that's a sort of another as a sub as
a sub subculture. I think the the UFO conference culture is a sort of
a separate beast. It's part of the same thing. Like, don't get
me wrong, like it is part of the UFO subculture, but it's definitely
its own kind of little version of it. I think because there's a lot
of things that happened at conferences and there's a lot of um there. I
would say the communication of the UFO topic at a conference is like in hyperdrive
there, right, Like it's it's it's not just um, you know,
over the computer, or it's not just over texting, or it's not just
over messenger, or it's not just over the phone. But you're actually interacting
with individuals who have had an almost experience. So you're interacting with individuals who
are engaged in investigation or or constant discourse. So um, yeah, it's
a total separate thing. I gotta asked, if I was going to write
a second book, I would go to every UFO conference I could and just
write about that, Like, I think that would be like my next project
would be to take the UFO subculture and like, let's compartmentalize even more.
And now I want to do a book on conference culture because I think it
would be unbelievable and it would be crazy and wild. I mean there's the
people those conferences, some of them like they dressed up and they sell crystals
and they yeah, I love it. Yeah, And that's that's one of
the things I mentioned last week about how Roswell has become, you know,
commercialized in a way, you know. I mean it's it's such a you
know, and not only the once a year parade coming up in what a
couple of weeks, but not only that, but you know, the town
itself, you know, restaurants being named after you know, certain things and
you know, uh, spaceships on on signs and stuff like that, and
a lot of people are really really into it. Oh. I mean,
Roswell's the town that it has a vested interest now in maintaining the fact that
something strange happened there, right, Like they cannot if even if there's an
explanation that comes out and it's proven, though, they would have to fight
against it. Right, because ultimately economically that the UFO crash at Roswell is
Roswell. Basically, yeah, yeah, last week's guests would not uh,
it would not fare well in that town walking down the street, I wouldn't
go yeah. Um. So from the chat room, UM, what are
your thoughts on the co creation hypothesis has presented by Greg Bishop? And how
do you feel about the hypothesis that the hypothesis stand up for eh and others
Eh. I think we talked about this. This was this was the top
of our last talk. I think when that when I was on last time
what we talked about co creation a bit. Um. Um. Yeah,
So if if you're a I mean, if you're asking me whether I believe
co creation is the answer, I think it's I think it's a pretty viable
theory or a hypothesis. Um, I don't know if it's an answer.
Um. My interest in UFOs is sort of again more around people and the
culture and the community. UM. But I've written sort of several articles about
Greg Bishop's co creation hypothesis as I think a good sort of good middle ground
GAS. I think the problem with you know, if you sort of zoom
out on on the UFOE narrative and look at it from a bird's eye view.
Unfortunately, the extras the extraterrestrial hypothesis sort of as a nuts and bolts
phenomena of you know, a bunch of meat bodies jumping into a ship and
flying here and doing stuff. Um. I don't think it generally fits all
the time with the entire narrative. Um. Typically, if you want to
go with ETH, you have to start leaving certain aspects out, or you
have to start calling certain people sort of delusional or fakes or hoaxers, or
or they're just too woo woom because ultimately their mythology or their their ideology doesn't
fit into the et H paradigm. However, you know, on the flip
side of that, there are aspects of the UFO phenomenon that are very material
and physical. Right, they tend to show up on radar every once in
a while, they show up on gun camera footage. Now they leave depression
of marks, at least they used to. I haven't had actually good UFO
landing case in a while, you know, like the last my UFO landed
in a field with like legs and stood anyway. Yeah, that's true,
right, you know, like when yeah, um, so you at times
have physical evidence or trace evidence. I guess you call it left behind um
in sort of the uf phone narrative. So I think co creation tries to
to sort of find itself nicely in the middle between something that's more mystical and
not immaterial or or psychosocial UM and something that's more nuts in bolts physical,
And I think it tries to place itself in the middle, which is why
I kind of like it um. But again, one I guess issue that
I've since thought about in regards to co creation is it is it comes off
sometimes as a bit of a uh, sort of like a theory of everything,
sort of hawking asque theory of everything solution, And maybe the UFO phenomenon
is not that, you know, maybe the UFO phenomenon is not one thing
but rather a smorgs board of of a whole bunch of things. Maybe we
are dealing with a few um sort of nuts and bolts extra trustrial ideas.
Maybe we're dealing with some mystical or or sort of interdimensional hypotheses, and maybe
we're dealing with some psychosocial and maybe they're sort of coalescing or working together or
or just totally separate and we're just experiencing it. So I think we also
need to sort of think about whether we spit into the camp of there is
one thing and that is the cause of all ufolk experience, or are we
dealing with a whole smattering of things that are just sort of coincidentally all occurring
simultaneously for us. But yeah, I did co creation, I do interesting.
Yeah, I think I don't think there is if there's an answer out
there to what you know, people are seeing and witnessing. Um, I
don't think it's I don't think it's one thing. It just seems like it's
there's too many variables and what people are experiencing m to be just one thing.
And so we are gonna we have about less than ten minutes to the
break, and then after that we're going to take calls. Um, so
what about the the abductee or experiencers they're mostly called. Now, what about
that aspect of that? Your is your book, and to touch into any
part of that a bit for sure? You know. I tried to tie
in sort of as many different sort of ideas from the UFO narrative as I
could. Um, so I think the I think UFO experiencers or contact he's
abductees. I think they're sort of the most interesting. Um. I think
that really when we when we think about, um, those people who have
their sort of their foot now in two worlds, right, Um, someone
who has had a contact experience or an abduction experience really now dwells in this
weird in between zone. This this this sort of no man's land, if
you will, this gap between their daily lives and this life that has been
totally um I guess, interrupted or disconnected from sort of the normal daily world.
I mean, I can't imagine going about my business and then all of
a sudden being abducted or having this amazing contact experience. UM. I can't
imagine how it would affect me. Um, it would right, UM,
So how do you then pick yourself back up? How do you then,
you know, wake up the next morning and go, well, I'm gonna
get my you know, VENTI latte um from Starbucks. I mean, you
just you probably can't write you you you you sort of you. You you've
been the victim of something or or if it's a contact experience, you've been
sort of enlightened in some way to the point where you sort of don't recognize
the normal world as being real anymore. UM. And and I think that
this is one thing that UFU subculture often sort of engages in, is is
UM realizing that sort of the daily reality you and I live in is not
necessarily sort of true or objective or um. I guess it could be objective,
but it's not really sort of honest in a sense if aliens are real,
or if interdimensional beings are real, or if um, mystical you know,
non human entities are are are roaming around in our you know, universal
consciousness. UM. You know, paying your taxes or or getting a mortgage
seems ridiculous, um, when you know we're potentially one species in a chorus
of others, UM that are intelligent And UM, how do we continue to
live our lives? And when it comes to abduction and contact, I think
this is sort of to the nth degree, right, this is really the
big challenge. UM. Can you go back to your old life and does
your old life seem normal? Or are you sort of like Dorothy um after
the tornado? Right You've gone to OZ and now you're back and life just
seems sort of colorless, right, it doesn't seem real anymore. There's something
wrong with it. And this is I think fundamentally where abduction contact e um
sort of individual experience or sort of fit um. They're they're they're Dorothy,
and they've come back, and you know, they're trying to figure out where
the hell of a color went. I've I've said a number of times in
the show like if um, you know, the abduction experience was happening to
me, I couldn't function. I just don't know how I could possibly,
you know, go on with my life and and you know, by the
way, someone's saying hi from Starbucks on the chat room, But I mean,
how could you go to like Starbucks and just like live the normal life
after something like that. I mean, I don't get it. If these
people are truly being abducted, kudos to them for trying to fit in,
as I certainly would have a hard time doing that myself, right. And
I'm not going to sit here and say every single abduction case or every single
contact case is legitimate, because we can't say that. I think that there's
going to be plenty of frauds and plenty of posers out there. You can't.
You know, you can't believe everybody, I suppose, but I would
say that there's probably a good junk of them that I would say are legitimate
in some way. You know, again, I can't make a claim.
I can't make a truth claim as to the source of the viewfo phenomenon.
So if a person was abducted, or if a person has a contact experience,
I don't know what happened to them. You know, I'm not even
sure if they know what happened to them. But whatever did happen to them,
it's affected them. So to them it's as real as possible because ultimately
they're the ones who have to sort of live their lives with this new understanding
or this sort of new interpretation of the world. And the strange thing is
it happens. You know, people are claiming this all over the world,
and you know, I mean, who do they confide in, you know,
if they don't have anyone to talk to, I mean, it must
be um, you know, possibly it's uh, it could be uh you
know, some of them could be sleep paralysis. I don't want to step
on any toes out there for you know, because I do know that uh.
Um you know. I mean people have they like see images of of
like beings, So that's not uncommon in sleep paralysis. You know. Sure,
but I don't think you can step on any toes. I mean,
ultimately, you know, we have to still remain critical. Um, it's
okay to be to to ask people, you know, are you sure it's
on sleep prolysis, because ultimately, I be honest if I I think,
like I've actually had this conversation with my wife, like if I woke up
one morning convinced I was abducted, Um really wow, no no, no,
no, no, no, no no sorry, no, no,
no, no, what I'm saying if I did, Like, if I
had that experience, I thought for sure you said I did. No,
no, no, if I woke up one morning you heard it here,
folks. Yeah that Um, if if I woke up one morning thinking that
I was abducted, I would hope that I would have sort of the wherewithal
to to sort of sit there and say, you know, maybe I should
go see us like a psychiatrist first. You know, maybe I wasn't actually
abducted, maybe I had some sort of fugue state, or maybe sleep paralysis,
or maybe there's something sort of, Um, maybe there's sort of an
error in my functioning, right, Because ultimately, that I think is a
lot better than the reality that there's a species roaming around that has um that
just kidnaps people randomly for for sort of various reasons, and does so without
any ethical or moral issue, and just simply treats us as test subjects without
our consent. I think that is much more frightening than me just you know,
losing my mind a little bit. So I think it's okay be critical.
I think we have to be critical. I think we can't sit here
and say every single story is true. But again we have to be cautious
because the inherent problem is no one can prove anything in this in this field.
So I have to make a judgment call, I suppose, and we
all have to make judgment calls. Who do we believe and who do we
not believe? Um, And this, this, this becomes problematic because I
may, like you, go to UVOTE convention. Um, you know,
I'm gonna say something here that's gonna maybe hurt some feelings. But half the
speakers up there that go up in lecture are full of nonsense and garbage and
they're there because it's a cottage industry and they like the the the glory and
the well the money quote unquote, um and and just the attention. Um
So, I think it's based more if there If I had to pick between
the two, I would say it's more based on attention than it would be
for the money, because there's no that's a misconception. There's no real money
in this field, only for the you know, for the ones that one
person I mentioned earlier and a few letters. You know, there's not really
a lot of money. And we're about ready to go into break, so,
um so, why don't we Why don't we do that? We're going
to go into the break and so you're listening to podcast UFO on Martin Willis
and my guest is m J. Banias, And we'll be right back right
after this break and just over three and a half minutes in this break gang,
Okay, three and a half minutes, I'll set my timer. Thank
you. Um So, I'm not sure, um where you want to go
when we come back, but we will start taking calls. It's hard to
hard to always guess how many calls we're going to get. Sometimes no one
calls in. Sometimes we do get you know, three or four calls.
So hey, I'm down for whatever. You know, people want to give
them a call, take it. Yeah, I enjoy it. Yeah yeah,
good good. So we we talked a little bit this afternoon. Um,
so we have you know, about three minutes left. Um, and
you were talking about the Nimitz pilot. Um. No, not the pilot
on the radar, that's right, the radio, that's right. Daily's his
name, day Day, Yeah, Kevin Day Ken getting this all wrong?
Yeah, you're doing okay. He was on Phenomenon Radio Thursday night, amazing,
amazing guy. And he was on Coast to Coast two nights ago.
Yeah, Sunday, Sunday Georgian. Yeah, we broke we broke him Thursday
night though on Phenomenon Radio, John Burrows working with some people were successful And
oh I heard about that. Yes, yeah it was It was a very
it was an amazing interview. Um. You know it really it wasn't so
much like a classic interview like you would normally think, guys. It was
more like a couple of old you know, military catch just sitting back,
yeah, talking about stuff. You know. Yeah. I did listen to
it. Um, it's interesting though. I mean, um, there's a
lot sort of there's a lot happening in the background. I think with this
and and especially with maybe to the Stars a little bit and George Knappin.
I don't know, there's there's a whole backstory here that you know, I
don't know what's going on here, but Sea, Well, that's a part
of it. That might be a good part for you to to research for
your book. Yeah, outside of conferences, because you know, people have
a big misconception about conferences. Conferences aren't a place where you know, really
sought after information. It's broke. It's where people get together and they commune,
you know what I mean. That's that's what these conferences are. Um,
a chance for people to get close to the people that they admire and
and see them in person, just like a concert, a musical concert or
you know one of these uh antique road show things that you know, like
Martin does. I mean, they're fans of that. I'm a fan of
antique road show for the love of it. But at the end of the
day, you know, there is a group of pe people that will never
see the light of day. We'll never do media. They'll never come forward.
They they've worked behind the scenes for forty fifty years on this. Yeah,
and they use proxies, if you will, people that they can convey
to and they can can disseminate information when they want it to get out.
But you're very right about, you know, sort of this moving and shaking
behind the scenes. I'm one hundred percent with you. Yeah, Kevin Day
is an interesting story. I mean, ultimately he wrote a book where he
fictionalized this event and about seven years ago he wrote the book because he was
twenty ten, where he tells this story. Yeah. So it's interesting,
you know, I mean, I believe he was there. I believe he's
the real deal. I have, I have no qualms there. It's just
is interesting that sort of there's this whole back story. If you start going
to archives of fit the above top secret website, you can sort of find
all of these old posts from him. And then he had a post thing
in twenty seventeen where he sort of came out and said something about it.
And now he's sort of now, like you said, he broke on Phenomena
Radio a few days ago. So I think we're out of time, are
we? Are we out of time. Yeah, we're ready to go when
you guys are. Okay. So I wanted to tell you just real quickly.
We've there's a friend of the show that had a series going on.
It was called Milgram and the fast Walkers and basically want the He was actually
played a part in this mini series. You can find it online. It's
actually pretty good. And basically it was a girl that was getting abducted and
just had all the signs of it and just you know, went to a
therapist, Like you're talking about a doctor first and then a therapist and all
that. And I think that is like if someone is having this, you
know, in their life and they can't really explain it, but they're just
totally confused. I think you're right. I think starting with a therapist and
maybe get some medical check. But I'm wondering how many therapists out there actually,
and I've heard that there are some that will refer people to someone like
Yvon Smith or something like that, you know, to do some regression,
you know, hypno regression. M What do you think about all that part
of it? Yeah, you know, I think I think hypnotic regression has
very um yeah, I think I think I think we bump into a lot
of problems with it. I think there's a lot of allegations that hypnotic regression
will create false memories, um that often hypnotherapists will um whether on purpose or
by accident, lead the clients or or to certain set of beliefs about what
happened. So I think we need to be cautious. I'm not a doctor,
I'm not an expert in psychology, so I I can't sort of comment
too much, and I want to be careful. But I would say that
if I suffered from sort of an event like this, I probably wouldn't want
someone who's involved in the UFO subculture in any way to check me out.
I wouldn't want to have that sort of set ideology the present in my mind
as I'm you know, being evaluated or or being helped. The bigger problem
those I'm already part of the subculture, right, I'm already engaged in this
this world. So if I have a strange sort of anomalous experience like an
abduction or contact event, you know, am I already going to kind of
pull information that's already in my head about the UFO phenomena or about the UFO
discourse and push it into oh my god, I've been abducted, you know
whatever. I think really the more compelling cases of abduction and contact are people
who are not part of the UFO community, at least not before they get
abducted UM. I think that those are sort of the more interesting ones because
ultimately they have nothing really to draw on. They have no paradigm that they
used to say I was abducted by Grays, or I was abducted by this,
or that they just simply had an experience and they just sort of talk
about it. So I don't know the witness in my book that I that
I sort of use a lot that we talk. I sort of interview a
lot. M. She was never a member of the UFO community before UM.
She was just she's you know, I can't relyveal too much UM.
But she was a former UM flight attendant. UM lives on a farm now
with her husband, UM, just sort of living her daily life, and
all of a sudden, anomalous stuff started happening and she reached out. So
this was sort of a compelling case for me to investigate and look into.
UM. Now, she's never had an abduction at least not that she can
recall. Um. She does have a few moments I would say of maybe
what we could call missing time, um, but she has no recollection of
anything sort of in that in that time. And she's also telling herself you
know, maybe I just screwed up on telling time, or maybe I just
made a mistake versus her, you know, walk going down that rabbit hole
and telling herself, well, you know, I clearly I've been abducted by
something, so um, the sort of where yeah, go ahead and sorry,
I'd really lost my train of thought there. Yeah. You know.
The missing time part of this is always I always find that interesting because people
have talked about, um, you know, situations like that going way back.
I mean, it's not a new thing. It's uh, you know,
people have talked about it all the way back into the you know,
fifties, right, and that was even longer. I mean I think I
think people, you know, you probably have missing time cases of individuals.
Um. I know, I think it was brought up in either Valet's book
um Passport to Mongonia of of. I think individuals who would sort of go
into this sort of fairy land um, and you know, to them they've
been gone for five minutes, parting with you know, these elves or whatever,
and they come back and they've been gone for five years. So I
think you have sort of missing time sort of mythology, that's existence sort of
for a long time in sort of the paranormal world or in the I guess
the mystical sort of monster slash very world. I don't know what you call
that, the sort of the mythological world. Say, ah, that sounds
good. That's that's a good yeah, yeah, blanket. Anyway, we
are taking calls now if anyone wants to call in. That numbers up on
the screen if you're listening to YouTube, and we will take calls if anyone
wants to UM, wants to call in. UM, someone was a little
offended. I don't know if you want to address any part of it,
but they were a little bit offended about the conference. UM. I can't
remember exactly what you said about it, but maybe the fact that they they
think you haven't gone to any conferences or whatever. All right, that's it
for the free part the show. Thank you so much for listening. If
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O'Brien we're going to have an in house in studio guest and I want to
thank the people that help out with the show. First, we'll start out
with Jordan Bonaparte, who filled in for Alejandro Rojas who will be back next
week unfortunately, who was sick this evening. Also I want to thank Evan
for helping in the background our guest m J Benaias, and also I want
to thank Peggy for managing the Facebook page. And that's it, so remember
to keep your eyes to the sky.