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What's up, everybody? Welcome to
another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the

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podcast where you get to send me
Paul Abernathy any question you want on the

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National Electrical Code. But all you
gotta do is go to Paul Abernathy dot

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com. That's the portal, it's
already paid for, it's sponsored. We

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are here to answer your questions,
no matter what they may be. Just

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let me know the code cycle.
Be very descriptive in your question and I

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will either answer it in an email
or if selected, on a podcast much

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like today's episode, So do me
a favor. Go to Paul Abernathy dot

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com. Submit your questions. Stop
believing what you see on social media or

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stop propagating what other people say that
they can't back it up with code references.

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If you if in your mind you
question what they say, then bring

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the question to me and let me
save the day. Okay, Look,

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today's episode is a question. It
was submitted about calculations, and the question

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that came to me was, Paul, can you explain whether or not an

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EVSE is considered an appliance when it
comes to applying the standard method calculation?

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And if not, what do I
have to use to account for the new

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EVSE requirements in a load COLC.
Okay, very good question. And we

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get this this quite a bit because
most of the people know that in our

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Fasttracks program, we have some forms
that you fill out right, you can

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do a calculation and you basically go
through them and nobody send me an email

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about these forms. If you're a
fast Track student, you have access to

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them. If you're not a Fast
Track student, I don't provide them to

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you, so don't ask. Unless
you're a student, you don't get access

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to these. But what these forms
do is they let you go systematically through

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each one of the stages to do
a load calculation, whether it's a single

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family dwelling, a multifamily dwelling,
a non dwelling application like a store or

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restaurant or something like that. So
these forms really don't have space on there

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for just random stuff, and so
we haven't really incorporated that. So this

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is what makes this question so good
because it allows me to tell you at

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the end of the day, how
you're going to treat these other loads.

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And specifically for today's episode, it's
being asked about an EVSESE, which is

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electric vehicle supply whipment. So this
is the equipment that's going to provide the

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power to the actual EV vehicle,
And so how do you add or account

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for that load in your normal,
let's say, standard calculation using Part three

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of Article two twenty. So that's
what we're going to do to going to

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do today. We're going to kind
of look at it and kind of dig

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a little deeper. Now, obviously
we're going to start this journey by looking

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at the different rules for the different
elements under Part three. And so again

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I'm in the twenty twenty three edition
of the NEC, so this is only

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really Germane with the new rule for
the evs in the twenty twenty three.

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Now I'm going to tell you that
it was still a rule in the twenty

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twenty NEEC. You just had to
know how to apply it. So we'll

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talk about that at the end for
all of you twenty twenty folks who say,

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well, I don't have to account
for evse E because it didn't have

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a specific code section for it when
it came to the load calculation in two

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twenty okay, not six twenty five, but in two twenty Well, in

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twenty twenty three, we do.
But I'm going to show you that it's

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still applied to you in the twenty
twenty Okay, but you're gonna have to

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wait for that because I'm gonna deal
with the twenty twenty three folks first,

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all right, So let's look at
So if you have your code, the

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first question that you ask is,
can you when you're doing your appliances,

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and you know in the standard method, when you have four or more appliances,

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that you get to apply a seventy
five percent demand factor, right,

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it's just already given. But does
and that's for appliances, So that's going

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to pick up your things your dishwasher, your gar end with sink, waste

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disposer, trash compact or all those
things that are appliances. Basically they're factory

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made. They're made in standardized units
and things like that. And you're gonna

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say yourself, okay, well,
if the EVSESE is made in standardized size,

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can I clue them here as an
appliance? Right? Well, in

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order to be able to get to
four more Okay, Well, the twenty

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twenty three edition of the NEC made
this very clear that that was not the

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case. And if you go look
at two twenty dot fifty three, and

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I'll read it for you so that
you can have a better you know,

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I know you're driving or you're on
the job site, so I'm going to

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read it to you. That way, you don't have to crack your codebook

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open right now, but I encourage
you to go look at it at a

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later date. IS two twenty dont
fifty three says applying a demand factor of

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seventy five percent to the name plate
rating load of four or more appliances that

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are rated a quarter horse power or
greater. Okay, so a quarter horse

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power or greater, or five hundred
watts or greater that are fastened in place

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and that are served by this same
feeder or service in a one family,

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two family, or multi family dwelling
shall be permitted. Okay. Now it

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says this demand factor shall not apply
to the following. So this is basically

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saying, okay, these are specific
things that may or may not meet a

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category of being like an appliance,
but they're specifically telling you these specific five

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things cannot be added into this allowance
to be considered for this seventy five percent

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demand. Okay, So these aren't
included. So the first one is household

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cooking electric cooking equipment that is fastened
in place. Okay, cook tops,

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things like that. That is already
taken care of in two twenty fifty five.

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Right, no sense, And you're
gonna already get some abilities to apply

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some demands there saying, so don't
even worry about that. Clothes dryers,

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same thing to twenty fifty four is
already going to have something figured in for

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you, so you can include it
here. Uh, space heating equipment and

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air conditioning equipment. We already have
rules. We're gonna have to deal with

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that. And again we'll we'll look
at the non coincident loads and two twenty

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sixty and all that and determine which
is larger if there actually are non coincident

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loads. By the way, there
are occasions where they may not be like

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a heat pump. So at the
end of the day, you don't consider

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space heating equipment. You don't consider
the air conditioning equipment as part of this

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allowance in two twenty fifty three.
Now, the last one is new for

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the twenty twenty three edition of the
NEC, and that is EVS Electric Vehicle

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Supply Equipment. This is the equipment
that is supplying the power to charge the

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EV vehicle. So it makes it
very clear that this is not to be

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included in that ability to apply a
demand factor of seventy five percent okay doesn't

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apply. It also makes it very
clear by the way in this when we

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changed it, to make sure that
the motors were at least you know,

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when you're looking at it, it
had to be a quarter horsepower greater or

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five hundred wats or greater. This
was to also be honest with you,

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the allow of people to not to
game the system. And what I mean

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by gaming the system is this did
not let people incorporate things like small bathroom

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ventilating fans and try to get to
that that four or more. Like they

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may have only had three appliances,
right, but they can say, oh

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wait a minute, I had four
bathroom fans. I can add those as

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in appliants. No, that was
not the intent. And they're going to

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be less than five hundred watts or
they're going to be a horsepower rating is

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going to be less than a quarter
horsepower. Okay, So at the end

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they might be something like a one
sixth of a horsepower or something like that.

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Anyway, the point of the is
that you have five specific things,

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and you have the small appliances or
small motors for example, that would not

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typically be included in this reduction.
Okay, So that's important part to remember.

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And so the quarter horsepower are greater, or five hundred wats are greater,

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that came in a couple of cycles
ago. So to try to capture

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that and not let people kind of
game the system on those small little quote

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appliances, motors or whatnot. So
all we really saw in the twenty twenty

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three was the ev s E.
Now you still have to count for that

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load. Okay, So just because
you're not able to apply demand here,

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you still have to account for it
now where you want to count for it,

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and you know that's that's that's up
to you. But at the end

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of the day, there are some
specific situations, right, and so look

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for the appliances that are fastening place
other than the ones that we mentioned.

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The feeder capacity must prove for the
sum of these loads. If the total

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load includes again four more appliances,
then I can apply that seventy five percent

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demand factor. Again remembering that the
small motors like ventilating fans and bathrooms and

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things like that are not going to
be an appliance that gets counted when you're

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trying to apply this seventy five percent. We're clear, okay, just want

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to make sure that we're clear on
all that. Now, what in the

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code was added to say? Okay, I get all that, but I

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need you to give me something for
these EVSE loads. Now, this is

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provided that you actually have the intent
to install evsee. If you're not,

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then this doesn't apply. But look
here, let's look at it. In

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the twenty twenty three a new code
section was added, section fifty seven for

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Article two twenty and it's titled Electric
Vehicle Supply Equipment Load, and it says

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the EVSE load shall be calculated at
either seventy two hundred watts. And again

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remember watts is equivalent to VA,
so seventy two hundred watts or the name

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plate rating of the equipment, whichever
is larger. So what that tells me

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is that in my calculation, ultimately
I am going to apply seventy two hundred

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watts if I don't know what my
EVSSE is going to be, and if

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I do know my EVSSE, then
I'm installing. And it has a name

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plate and the value of the rating
of that nameplate value is larger than seventy

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two hundred, then that's what I'm
going to use. I'm going to use

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the the whatever is larger scenario and
work that into my calculation. Okay,

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do that makes sense? So you
have to account for it? Okay?

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Okay, So now what people ask
me, and they say, okay,

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well we get this clear direction in
the twenty twenty three. Now when it

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comes to EVSESE and whether you have
it or not, and if you do,

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any intention is to have it.
And again that's where it seems like

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everybody's going that way, right they
want this evs this push for electric vehicles.

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Okay, So if you're designing the
building or you're designing it and the

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intent is to have an EVSESE,
I know a guy just building a house

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down here, not far from me, and he's putting it in EVSE.

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He's putting it all in, whether
he owns a vehicle or not, he's

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putting the circuit in and so going
he's an example of well, then he's

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going to have to account for it. And it would be seventy two hundred

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watts or whatever the equipment. He
doesn't have any equipment, So in this

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case he's going to put use the
seventy two hundred in his low calculation.

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Okay. Now, one of the
things to remember here is if you were

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going back to the twenty twenty code, people say, well, I get

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that direction in the twenty twenty three, but what direction do I get in

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the twenty twenty for the EVSE Okay, Well, firstly, we're gonna remember

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that inside of part two, which
again Part three says you take values from

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part two to use in part three, and additional demands could be applied in

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part three. But you're taking values
from part two, and in this case

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you would look at two twenty dot
fourteen, and we're gonna look at a

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Specifically A says specific appliances or loads. Now that's important because whether you argue

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it's an appliance or not, it
is a specific load obviously for an EVSESE.

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Now people say, well, if
there's nothing nifty in the code that

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specifically says it like it does in
A twenty twenty three, then you don't

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have to apply it. That's not
true. A load is a load.

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You still got to account for the
load. You just can't add all these

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loads and not account for that.
And you're conductor sizing, you're service sizing.

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You've got to account for these things. So if you know you're putting

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an EVS in, then you go
here and you go say, okay,

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well i'm doing this load, calc. I've got to fit it in here

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somewhere. And so you've got two
twenty dot fourteen A that says an outlet

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for a specific appliance or other load. And remember, don't be one of

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those whack jobs who think an outlet
is only a receptacle that is a device.

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An outlet is the point in the
system where we take power. So

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it could be this ev SSE is
ran to a junction box that is sitting

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there in your garage. That is
the outlet to which you will take power

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from to supply the EVSE equipment.
So that is your outlet. Okay,

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whether it's just a junction box sitting
there or whatnot, that is it.

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That is the outlet. Okay,
now it is going to be. It

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says here clearly, it says an
outlet for specific appliance or other load.

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Not covered into forty dot fourteen B
through M. And these EVS are not

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covered in that, so all the
way down to M they're not covered.

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So that's why you're using a And
then it says shall be calculated based on

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the ampur rating of the appliance or
the load served. So that means that,

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look, what is the load served. It's going to be the rating

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of the specific EVSEE that you're going
to be utilizing, right, and that

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is your load. So it is
already in here. Okay, it's it's

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just been defined and has a minimum
value in the twenty twenty three, whereas

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here in the twenty twenty it's just
saying, you know what, take the

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rating of the actual equipment and you're
going to incorporate that in. Now,

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nothing says that you have to put
an evse E in unless you're in California

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or somewhere where they may write it
into a local rule or a local ordinance

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or you have to account for it
or something anywhere else in the country.

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Yeah. No, But if you
building a house and you know that you're

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going to put an outlet in to
the point where you could connect to an

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EVSESE system, then you're going to
have to account for either seventy two hundred

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minimum VA or you're going to do
the name plate whichever is larger. And

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presumably if you know the type of
charging equipment that you're going to use,

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then you can be a little proactive
and you can go see what the rating

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is on that equipment, could do
that right, Okay, So hopefully that

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answers that question on that. So
it's more important to me that you understand

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that there is loads that do have
to be account for. And even if

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the code or the NEC is not
as nifty as you'd like it to be,

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if you know of these loads,
they then you have to account for

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these loads. You just can't say
they don't exist, all right, especially

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when you're sizing. You want to
make sure that your service as size.

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Right now, with that said,
it's a little easier to do this under

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the optional method, right because if
I was doing a optional method and I

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was just doing the dwelling unit right
and I was doing the optional then it's

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pretty simple to follow to twenty dot
eighty two A and then B and B

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00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,680
gets down to three, which is
nameplate rating, and it says all appliances

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00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:30,720
that are fast into place, permanently
connected, or located on a specific circuit

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which this would be. Then I
just simply take the name plate and again,

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00:17:36,559 --> 00:17:37,480
as you know, you add up
all these name plates, and in

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00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,799
this case you're able to actually apply
the demands to that, that is,

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00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,519
the first ten thousand at one hundred
percent and then the remainder, then the

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00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,160
remainder at forty percent, So this
would be incorporated in there. So you

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get quite a nice lumped in demand
here for this. So nine times out

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00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,279
of ten are probably even close to
ten out of ten. Nobody's going to

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do the standard method anyway, They're
going to do the optional method. And

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remember it just gets the evsese just
gets absorbed into that original general load calculation

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00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:18,640
in two twenty dot eighty two b
okay and specifically B three. All right,

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00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,799
So again don't have to make that
complicated. And that's why so many

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00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,359
people just do the optional method.
But if you're preparing for an electroal exam,

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00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,960
ah, then it's not going to
be that easy, right because chances

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00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:33,559
are they're going to throw a question
in there and it's going to be the

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00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,279
standard method. It's not going to
be the optional because the optional would be

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too easy, right, Okay,
all right, hopefully you got something out

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00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:45,200
of that episode. Learned a little
bit about that. If you have any

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questions, like always again, if
you feel I left something out, or

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00:18:48,279 --> 00:18:49,680
you want me to elaborate on it, or you want to ask a question

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00:18:49,839 --> 00:18:55,279
on it, all you got to
do is note the episode and reply over

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00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,880
on Paul abernathy dot com. Make
sure you let me know the episode,

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00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,559
give me a brief summary of what
you're talking about, because I don't want

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00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:03,960
to go back and listen to my
episode. I've got over a thousand episodes

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00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,559
out there, so give me a
little understanding. Give me the generalization of

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00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:11,200
what you're talking about and your question, give me the code reference to the

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00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:15,480
what year, what cycle you're working
in, and then ask your questions.

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00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,599
If it is about this and it's
a follow up, just be as descriptives

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00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:23,559
as you can about what you want
me to answer, and I'm more than

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00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:26,440
happy to reply back. If you
want to send me a new question again,

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00:19:26,559 --> 00:19:29,799
do that as well. Go to
Paul Abernathy dot com. That's a

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00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:32,759
free service. All you got to
do is put in your name, email,

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00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:36,440
and the question and you'll either get
an answer back in an email or

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00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,519
you could be selected for an upcoming
episode of Let's ask Paul all right,

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00:19:42,079 --> 00:19:47,680
and remember I'll never disclose your name. I'll never disclose your email. It's

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00:19:47,839 --> 00:19:52,240
all confidential. I just use it
for educational purposes. So again, don't

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00:19:52,279 --> 00:19:53,480
worry about that. If you're somebody
that's like, oh, I don't want

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00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:57,000
Paul to blast me, he won't
blast you. Don't worry till next time,

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folks, Stay safe, God bless
the boot both. Taskballing is nothing. Mask nothing