1 00:00:09,199 --> 00:00:37,399 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:38,840 --> 00:01:18,680 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 3 00:01:27,400 --> 00:02:07,479 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:02:10,439 --> 00:03:00,000 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 5 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:59,199 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 6 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:34,240 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 7 00:04:36,439 --> 00:05:45,720 the the the the All right, welcome to another open live stream never gets 8 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:53,959 old. Only in the Escaton will we no longer have to rebut all the 9 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,680 goofy heresies out there, which seemed to be infinitely expanding in their very variations. 10 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,959 There's not actually an infinite number of heresies, but they seem to appear 11 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:14,279 to expand infinitely. But there are always deviations of the same kind of basic 12 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:21,480 assumptions, the basic starting points, which then down the line lead to a 13 00:06:21,519 --> 00:06:29,240 lot of innovations in variations. What's up, Shout out to everybody in the 14 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:41,480 chat, shout out everybody over here on YouTube and on x I want to 15 00:06:41,519 --> 00:06:46,360 start off with this A couple of points here, As Tim correctly noted, 16 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,120 anytime Francis makes a concession to the Trads. And this is something I've said 17 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,759 for many, many years, because it's the move of the Vatican. In 18 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,000 terms of bureaucracy, it's a classic bureaucratic move. Anytime we see a bone 19 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:03,199 thrown to the trads in the Roman Catholic sphere, you can usually expect that 20 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:09,199 Francis is about to drop something heavy, and that is, of course what's 21 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:15,279 going on. We have, as Luigi noted the other day, this upcoming 22 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:23,439 announcement tomorrow, a new preparatory document where the Vatican claims at least this is 23 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,240 the buzz. We don't know exactly what's going to happen. Sometimes these things 24 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:31,800 turn out to be nothing burgers. Sometimes they turn out to be pretty devastating. 25 00:07:32,879 --> 00:07:40,399 This is from mainstream news in Germany Catholic German website. For around one 26 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,079 thousand years, church leaders in the East and West have been arguing about the 27 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,160 role of pope. Now the Vatican has drawn up a proposal of how the 28 00:07:46,199 --> 00:07:49,040 papacy could be seen as acceptable to other churches. This could have far reaching 29 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:58,560 consequences. The document is expected the article is arguing to make a proposal for 30 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,360 a renewed form of the papal office. Why would we need a renewed form. 31 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:07,480 When Vatican One argued that this was always the ancient view of the Church. 32 00:08:09,399 --> 00:08:13,199 Some believe that it is possible the Vatican could meet regularly with the other 33 00:08:13,279 --> 00:08:22,240 patriarchs and be basically meet with him on a quote equal footing in accordance with 34 00:08:22,279 --> 00:08:28,399 this upcoming proposal. Now, this is again a total contradiction from what Vatican 35 00:08:28,399 --> 00:08:33,159 One says. Vatican one says that anyone who rejects the Vatican One definition is 36 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:41,919 excommunicated from the Church and thus loses their salvation. That's the classic traditional teaching, 37 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:46,679 which everyone knows and everyone in the apologetic field has always argued is the 38 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:54,039 case. Thus the idea of revising this is itself a contradiction. Now, 39 00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:03,000 remember we don't actually need another document admitting this, because the document known as 40 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:09,639 the Alexandria Synod document already admitted this. This document that came out June seventh 41 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:16,440 of last year under the Papacy's Eastern Theological Commission already admitted all these points. 42 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,519 But of course, as we know, Roman Catholics don't really care what their 43 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:26,120 documents say. Every document that doesn't work with their system is handwave. They 44 00:09:26,159 --> 00:09:31,759 just handwave it and then when Francis approves yet another document, they'll just appeal 45 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:33,600 to the next level of cope that, well it wasn't acco. Theater doesn't 46 00:09:33,639 --> 00:09:37,639 count. So really, the only things that count are the things that each 47 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:43,759 individual Roman Catholic wants to count. And it doesn't matter how many times this 48 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,879 system contradicts itself over and over and over in its dogmatic pronouncements and its changes, 49 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:58,399 and its catechisms and its liturgical reforms. So called what we see is 50 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,039 the very thing that we saw with the Aryan guy the other night. Did 51 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:05,519 you see that Aryan debate? And we were not sure that he was Joe's 52 00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:09,399 witness. We were trying to decipher that FDA and I, I mean, 53 00:10:09,399 --> 00:10:15,039 he could have very well been Mormon. It just sounded to me like the 54 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,519 first few arguments he went to her classic Joe's witness arguments, but then he 55 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,799 went to you know, well, you're all gods, and that must mean 56 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,720 that God the Father was once a god. And but you know this Mormon 57 00:10:26,799 --> 00:10:31,000 idea of apotheosis stuff. So I don't know what his position was ultimately, 58 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:39,000 but regardless, what that demonstrated and a lot of people who read my comments 59 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:43,200 on this didn't understand what I meant, and it's just really frustrating to, 60 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,120 you know, constantly deal with these arguments about paradigms, and so many people 61 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,039 just cannot get this. And I'm more and more thinking that, unfortunately, 62 00:10:52,039 --> 00:10:56,840 there is there's a kind of an IQ barrier to this argument. Of course, 63 00:10:56,879 --> 00:11:00,759 there's not an IQ barrier to being orthodox or anything like that, but 64 00:11:00,919 --> 00:11:03,200 understanding what we're talking about does seem to have an IQ barrier. And I 65 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:09,080 think that's the biggest challenge of the transcendental argument, is the IQ barrier. 66 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,799 Because I was reading some people's posts a few days ago about you know, 67 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:22,480 certain levels of IQ and the inability to think in abstract and hypothetical ways. 68 00:11:22,519 --> 00:11:28,159 For example, people with one hundred IQ can only abstractly think at a certain 69 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:35,440 level, right In other words, to entertain hypotheticals appears to be very difficult 70 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,679 for people with an IQ under one hundred, and even at one hundred, 71 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,799 they can only entertain a hypothetical or an abstraction to a certain degree. So, 72 00:11:43,879 --> 00:11:46,000 for example, when I was reading the comments underneath the yar on Brook 73 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:52,799 debate, I would say ninety five percent would say that I won the debate, 74 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,519 but the five percent of the atheists that were contending that I lost the 75 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,720 debate. I know, reading through those comments, they seem to be unable 76 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:07,639 to understand what a hypothetical is. In other words, if I use an 77 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,480 argument from David Hume, they assume that I have the David Hume's skeptic position, 78 00:12:13,039 --> 00:12:16,240 which is just absurd to me. I mean, it's just so bizarre 79 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:22,799 to me to think that people can't distinguish between using an argument and having that 80 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:28,559 person's entire worldview. It's very similar to the Dave Smith Andrew Wilson debate from 81 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,919 the other night, which if you noticed a lot of the fans of Dave 82 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:43,519 Smith couldn't understand what Andrew was getting at with the objections about familial relations. 83 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:50,279 We'll say, I mean, obviously Andrew wasn't arguing for that, so dumb, 84 00:12:50,679 --> 00:13:00,600 right, And the purpose of a defeater in an argument doesn't mean that 85 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:09,559 you believe that system. It's just a defeater. That's how argumentation works. 86 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:15,120 But I mean, we're dealing with like masses of people who don't they don't 87 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,120 understand any of this, so that there's just gonna be I guess, this 88 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,279 perpetual, eternal challenge I just don't. There's just I don't know that there 89 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:28,279 is a way to make this kind of stuff easier or more more understandable. 90 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:35,320 It's just it's just I mean, even the intelligent people who are Roman Catholics 91 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,639 and or even Evangelicals who want to defend, for example, evidentialism, I 92 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:46,360 mean, it's just like talking to a brick wall. So we're going to 93 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:54,960 open it up today. The topics are listed. They are Catholicism, Protestantism, 94 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,200 Islam, Hebrew roots, Black heber Is are like Mormons, Gnostics, 95 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:05,480 shows, witnesses, Unitarians, arians, pagans, cults, libertarians. If 96 00:14:05,519 --> 00:14:09,000 libertarians want to call in, you can know the floor. You can make 97 00:14:09,039 --> 00:14:11,799 whatever arguments you want. Remember to make arguments. Arguments is not the same 98 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,200 thing as arguing. Making an argument means that you have a thesis with supporting 99 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:22,840 evidences, arguments, or syllogisms, something to back up what you're claiming or 100 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:28,759 asserting. Merely asserting things is not an argument. Reasserting your position is also 101 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:37,440 not an argument. Justification is not you giving a psychological report. Justification means 102 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:45,440 addressing how your position is quote justified, true belief, and why we ought 103 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,879 to accept your position not do you have the position. See, those are 104 00:14:48,879 --> 00:14:56,120 two different things, you guys understand, And I hope that we get some 105 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,799 Arians, some Unitarians, some Jode's Witnesses, some more men and Muslims, 106 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:09,519 because I again just went through every Theophanic reference, and I did miss four 107 00:15:09,559 --> 00:15:15,279 of them, as we saw in the live stream that followed upon the Theophanes 108 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,840 and the Torah. We went through every theophany, and particularly the one that 109 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:26,080 I missed was very powerful, the one of Leviticus nine, because it actually 110 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:31,039 says the glory of God appeared to all of Israel. And God's glory is 111 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:37,120 not a creature, okay, So that can't be an angel meaning a created 112 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:43,440 angelic being like Michael or Gabriel. So it has to be an actual Theophany. 113 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,960 This means that the entire Romancalolque position is undone by that right there. 114 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:56,879 Because Roman Catholicism eventually adopted a very strict position that the Theophanes are not Divinity 115 00:15:56,879 --> 00:16:03,320 itself. They can't be because it would quote compromise divine simplicity in their view. 116 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:10,039 So because of their metaphysical presuppositions, they sacrificed one of the key principles 117 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:17,840 in the Old Testament that foreshadows the incarnation. If the Theophanes may make it 118 00:16:17,879 --> 00:16:22,600 impossible for Divinity itself to be present in time and space, then it logically 119 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,919 follows that the incarnation is not true, because the incarnation is the hypostasis of 120 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:33,279 the Sun, who is divine in time and space, in a unique mode 121 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,120 of being in a certain place in a certain time. And you notice that 122 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:40,559 text and Philippians too, which is very important. The Kenosis text also refutes 123 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,080 the idea that God is reducible to pure act in a sense of essence and 124 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,519 person being reducible to pure act right, So certain church fathers do say that 125 00:16:48,559 --> 00:16:52,600 God is pure act in contrasted creatures. They do not say that his essence 126 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:57,720 in itself is pure actuality or that the persons are identical to the essence, 127 00:16:57,759 --> 00:17:03,159 which is pure actuality. If the persons are identical to pure actuality, then 128 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,119 the canosis text of Philippians two is not possible because it specifically says that the 129 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:15,559 Son, who is equal to God, limited himself willingly to step into time 130 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,599 and space and to not actualize all of his powers. Well, guess what 131 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,880 that means. He's not pure act The Son is not pure act in that 132 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:33,480 case, in that sense and that example. Otherwise there's no limiting of his 133 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:38,359 powers, there's no canosis. The words cannosis itself refutes their stupid position. 134 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:42,839 It shows their whole system as heterodox. That's why the whole Roman Clic system 135 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:51,519 has devolved into perennialism and a religion that is intent on nothing but demonstrating that 136 00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:56,519 we all worship the same generic, unity, unitarian God, with the Muslims, 137 00:17:56,519 --> 00:18:02,640 with the Jews and everyone else, the Trinitarian revelation of the Bible. 138 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,680 And that's why the easiest rejoinder to that is to stress that Theophany's in the 139 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,680 Old Testament and that Moses and Abraham and David worship the Trinity. And you 140 00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:18,640 notice when we mentioned what's obvious to Orthodox it blows the mind of the Roman 141 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:26,359 Catholics. Trent can't understand how in the world could the Old Testament saints worship 142 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:33,559 the Trinity. And Sam Schmoun, who I love dearly, is going to 143 00:18:33,599 --> 00:18:37,720 have a really hard time when he if he goes into Catholicism and he learns 144 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,279 what Vatican two teaches and he learns he has to throw away all of his 145 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:48,799 Trinitarian arguments to adopt the natural theology of Nostra tat and Lumingentium sixteen. I 146 00:18:48,839 --> 00:18:52,960 mean, this alone is a is a deal breaker. You understand, This 147 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:57,039 alone tells you that you don't get an option to reject Nostre Tati and Lumingentium 148 00:18:57,079 --> 00:19:04,680 sixteen. And they're precisely the basis for why Trent and others would deny that 149 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:15,519 the Old Testament saints worship the Triad and this Torah Theophany Triad thing is so 150 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:21,559 crucial because it destroys the Muslims, the Jewish interpretation, the Rabbinic interpretation, 151 00:19:21,599 --> 00:19:29,359 I should say, and the Tonistic Roman Catholic interpretation. Have you noticed that 152 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:37,400 whether it's Youran Brooks or stuff on Malinu or Trent Horn or shake Azra Rashid 153 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,880 or Jake or any of the goobers that we've debated, have you noticed that 154 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:52,400 they all believe in self evident foundationalist basic doxicality when it comes to their epistemology, 155 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,519 and that none of them have yet addressed or even understand the objections. 156 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,839 Remember when I asked this to Trent, and Trent said, well, the 157 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,440 Kogitos is absolutely a solid argument, like as of no one has ever. 158 00:20:10,079 --> 00:20:15,319 It's like a famously devastated argument in the history of philosophy after Descartes. So 159 00:20:15,799 --> 00:20:21,880 we're dealing with people who have literally never had their epistemology challenged. And that's 160 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,720 why it's going to be very difficult to actually have a debate with doctor Tim. 161 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,480 Is he doctor Tim Gordon? Tim Gordon almost doctor Tim Gordon because I 162 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,519 noticed in the discussions the dms were having that Tim's just going to have his 163 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:47,839 metaphysical dogma. And now I understand even more so why Kant, for example, 164 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,000 And this does not mean cont is right, So don't misunderstand what I'm 165 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:57,599 saying. The Enlightenment philosophers were correct in this point to say, wait a 166 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:04,400 minute, if I grant you all these metaphysical starting points, then you're able 167 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:11,079 to construct an entire system which arbitrarily allows and doesn't allow for X, y 168 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,440 Z. And maybe that is the case. But the problem is, how 169 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,359 do we know that your starting points are correct? And it doesn't work to 170 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,079 just say because they are, And that's literally what these people are doing. 171 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:32,160 Can you imagine notice how vehemos everybody's criticisms were of Yaron brook in the comments, 172 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:40,559 but yar On Brook is no different than atomist or Tim Gordon. I'm 173 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:42,759 not saying they have the same views. Obviously one's theist, one's atheist. 174 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,480 Obviously that's not what I'm saying. They're no different in their epistemological presuppositions. 175 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:57,039 And if all of this was self evident, was there were brute facts, 176 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:03,880 then how come you've got people using the same self evident brute fact starting points 177 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:07,559 to go into atheism, the same brute fact starting points to go into tomism. 178 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:15,119 How did the same brute facts take people into these ridiculous positions? And 179 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,640 why would we not have seen, for example, the Aryan dude the other 180 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:26,960 night after an hour of solid, clear as day evidence from the scriptures, 181 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:32,039 a mountain pile of evidence proving the deity of the sun, and literally every 182 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:34,880 passage is reinterpreted and well it doesn't mean what you say, No, it 183 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:45,720 means this. So do you see that the evidences for the Aryan heretic are 184 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:53,160 all interpreted according to as paradigm? And somebody was trying to get smart with 185 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,880 me the other dark on Twitter. Well, if everybody's evidences are a corner 186 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:03,000 of paradigm, there's no point in debate, were you even beating dummy? 187 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:07,559 It doesn't mean that you can't change people's opinion or views. You can, 188 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,400 but it helps to point out and diagnose, like a doctor, what's actually 189 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:18,640 going on. So, in other words, evidentialism is like treating the symptoms 190 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:27,480 and it's not addressing the actual disease. The disease isn't the intellect. This 191 00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:32,920 came up in the comments when I put it on YouTube the community post, 192 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:37,680 I said, did you notice how every piece of evidence was interpreted by the 193 00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:44,799 Aryan guy to re to basically twist and butcher it to make it fit his 194 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:52,279 Aryan presuppositions? And somebody said, well, maybe you just didn't show him 195 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:56,519 the right amount of evidences. And the problem there is that you know you've 196 00:23:56,519 --> 00:24:02,960 missed the whole point. The point is that man's problem is not his intellect, 197 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:07,359 more evidences. What if I find a thousand pieces of evidence that can 198 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:14,000 help back up the possibility that Jesus resurrected from the dead. Yeah, but 199 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:18,920 have you not noticed that you can pile on a million pieces of evidence and 200 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:26,000 that the tendency is for people to reinterpret evidence is to fit their paradigm. 201 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,680 So how do we get out of this conundrum. Well, one thing that 202 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:33,599 we do is point out that man's problems aren't actually evidences. It's their heart. 203 00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:40,160 What Yeah, romans One says that in their hearts they became idolaters. 204 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:45,839 It doesn't say they had an error in their reasoning process. Their heart turned 205 00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:51,559 away from God, and then their intellect built a wall around their heart to 206 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:59,440 guard against it being wrong the world that they have their idolatry. So all 207 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:06,920 of the inte intellectual gibber jabber is like a wall that's built to shield man's 208 00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:17,519 hardened heart from actually being addressed at a fundamental level, because man wants to 209 00:25:17,559 --> 00:25:22,160 pretend that the problems are all intellectual. Shaw, all the endputs of the 210 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,200 algorithm, and I shall give you the correct algorithm by which I can just 211 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,559 probe the existence of any deity because of my life. And it's like, 212 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:37,400 no, no, all of this is smoking mirrors, dude. So ironically, 213 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,400 while it might appear that tag or something like that is this high IQ 214 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,519 intellectual thing, and it is at a certain level, the actual point of 215 00:25:45,519 --> 00:25:52,519 the argument is that your problems aren't ultimately intellectual in nature. They're spiritual in 216 00:25:52,599 --> 00:25:57,759 nature. They're this other component that's the heartened man. And that's why the 217 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:03,440 Tummus laugh at this, because the Thomas or idolaters who worship their ideas, 218 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:11,440 and that's the root of their problem, not all this intellectual stuff. So 219 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,519 perhaps a better apologetic approach, and I know it's Thomas isn't gonna accept that. 220 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,839 They're just gonna laugh at that, which is they're just laughing at their 221 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,559 own and be like when the doctor says, well, you've actually got terminal 222 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:27,079 cancer, the doctor things, I've got terminal cancer. There's not even a 223 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:38,000 thing called turbinal cancer. That's how they're acting as their entire edifice collapses in 224 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:45,240 on itself. Talking about Francis and the whole superstructure, right this Thomas r 225 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:48,480 over here LARPing like it's the Middle Ages and they're in some sort of you 226 00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:55,400 know, scriptorium, studying of Plato and Aristotle, and dude, the Vatican 227 00:26:55,519 --> 00:27:00,920 is like an organized crime structure based around compromise and you know, blackmail and 228 00:27:02,079 --> 00:27:07,880 money laundering. They don't give one hoot about Tomism, and they haven't for 229 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,119 one hundred years. So that's two different people living in a fantasy world. 230 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:18,039 And the more you try to debate and give Thomas the appearance of being like 231 00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:22,640 these intellectual these important intellectuals. It's actually a disservice to the whole thing because 232 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,519 they don't even deserve that, because their whole system isn't even about that anymore. 233 00:27:26,799 --> 00:27:30,160 The thing that they're defending has moved on from that one hundred years ago. 234 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,480 I don't care about Tomism. You think Francis cares one whit about Thomas 235 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,759 Aquinas's philosophy? Do you think the Cardinals give a damn about medieval gibber jabber 236 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:44,599 disputes? It just shows the idiocy and the naivety of a bunch of online 237 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,799 dorks, which is like their version of magic, the gathering. It's like 238 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:56,640 dungeons and dragons, but with medieval scholastic dictionaries or whatever. Nobody cares about 239 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,960 that. You don't even know. You're not even smart enough to figure out 240 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,759 out that the institution itself is an organized crime structure, as has been well 241 00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:11,200 documented in multiple PhDs. By the way, how come the evidences the PhDs 242 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,920 that have been written about this kind of stuff don't sway your opinion? Roman 243 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,680 Catholics? I thought the evidences is what took you to the truth. Well, 244 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,759 how come when I present countless books and evidences proving that the Vatican, 245 00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:27,079 at least in the last one hundred years, is an organized crime intelligence structure, 246 00:28:27,759 --> 00:28:30,920 you dismiss handwave and don't care about any of those evidences, even though 247 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:37,480 they're from your own trad cat scholars. Ah. You see, the whole 248 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:44,680 point that we've been making is that evidences are chosen and interpreted on the basis 249 00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:52,640 of the paradigm. So we don't know what tomorrow's document from Frank will actually 250 00:28:52,680 --> 00:29:00,839 say, but ultimately doesn't really matter because the Roman Catholics don't They don't care 251 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:08,279 anyway, We've already had countless documents and demonstrable contradictions, and it doesn't matter 252 00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:14,279 if Pope Frank uh, you know, sacrifices and eats zygotes in Saint Peter 253 00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:17,200 Square, it's all gonna be. Well, he didn't do it ex Cathedral. 254 00:29:18,039 --> 00:29:21,759 It wasn't the traditional mola ram right of the thuggie he did. He 255 00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:25,559 did it improperly, so it was invalid. It was an invalid thuggie right, 256 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:32,640 so it doesn't count. Shout out to everybody in a chat. We 257 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,200 got almost up to one thousand live here on YouTube. Glad to see you 258 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,960 guys. Welcome. All right, we're going to open it up. Today's 259 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:45,759 again. Today's acceptable topics are what we've discussed. I'm not really interested in 260 00:29:45,759 --> 00:29:48,039 the whole in the whole tag thing, although Father Deacon is here if he 261 00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:51,759 wants to address TAG questions, I'll let him do it. I'm just kind 262 00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:55,960 of we've did We've done TAG so much for the last six seven years of 263 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:03,599 open debate that I'd like to focus on the other topics that are here listed, 264 00:30:03,519 --> 00:30:08,519 mainly because I've really been focusing so heavily on theophanies in the Old Testament, 265 00:30:11,119 --> 00:30:14,079 and we just completed the three hour talk going through all of those. 266 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:18,799 I hope you guys make use of that, right. So the first half 267 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,480 was free, we got all the way through Genesis. The second half is 268 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:27,599 all of the rest of the Torah references up to Deuteronomy of theophanies, which 269 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:33,720 of which there are many. And that was for members to my website or 270 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,920 to my rock fin So you get access to that by subscribing to Jay's analysis. 271 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,759 We're going to open it up here to questions, answers, debates. 272 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:48,079 I give preference to those who would like to offer opposing positions. If you 273 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:55,480 have a lot of frequently asked questions for beginner orthodox stuff, you can easily 274 00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:59,119 find those elsewhere. So this is not really the show for that. So 275 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:00,680 again, I know most of you guys are one of them, and to 276 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,400 ask me a much of like, you know, where do I go to 277 00:31:02,519 --> 00:31:06,279 church? What's the right jurisdiction? Like, We've answered that many, many, 278 00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:10,039 many times, so I'd like to give a preference to the people who 279 00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:11,960 disagree. If you want to call in, the link is in the show 280 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,559 description here on YouTube. It's the Twitter link. Everybody always says, call 281 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,480 you. It's literally linked for you right there. It's literally linked in the 282 00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:22,000 chat like every ten minutes for you guys. Come on. It's not that 283 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,880 hard. Now when you come on, Twitter automatically mutes you, so that 284 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,759 means you have to unmute yourself. Otherwise I have to sit here and tell 285 00:31:30,759 --> 00:31:37,160 you guys to unmute. So first up today, First up today is from 286 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:42,720 a point of view, even from a what just point of view? What's 287 00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:56,279 up? Dude? Yeah, yes, sir, good, thank you for 288 00:31:56,359 --> 00:32:01,640 letting me speak. I just want to speak with you about a few things 289 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:07,480 related to libertarianism. That's a wherever you that's in the list libertarianism ahead. 290 00:32:09,359 --> 00:32:14,200 Well, the thing is, I'm not a libertarian myself, but I would 291 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:19,880 like to speak with you in a few things pertaining to it. For example, 292 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,200 at least in my youth, I did consider myself a libertarian because I 293 00:32:28,319 --> 00:32:32,960 just figured that it was very just a very like common sense ideology to have 294 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:37,599 you know that. Yeah, myself too, I did as well. Sure, 295 00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:42,119 yeah, that people should have the individual liberty to do what they want 296 00:32:42,279 --> 00:32:46,000 so long as they don't harm anyone. The belief in limited limited government, 297 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:52,279 the belief in the free market, and all that stuff. But as I 298 00:32:52,319 --> 00:33:00,640 grew up and started looking at libertarianism in a more critical lens, I started 299 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,319 seeing a lot of cracks in the ideology, and it was mainly in that 300 00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:13,359 like, when you apply libertarianism to a society, let's take the United States 301 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:19,920 for example, When you apply that kind of ideology with the current culture that 302 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:27,960 the United States essentially represents and encourages, you kind of start seeing where libertarianism 303 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:36,200 just kind of enforces and encourages the same kind of degeneracy and just lack of 304 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:40,079 more ethics. Staff for example, that the left and the elites promote yeah, 305 00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:45,640 and that's why the Libertarian Party always ends up caving and electing these degenerates 306 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,920 to be their representatives. Yeah. Yeah, And if it was and if 307 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,359 we were in a time like back in like the nineteen fifties or sixties, 308 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:59,920 there may be such an ideology could work because back then the majority of people 309 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:06,119 were oh, morally ethical, majority Christian, and the kind of ideas she 310 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:12,239 could have worked. But nowadays, I would label myself as more populist because 311 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,639 I see it as a more effective way of, for example, reaching to 312 00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:23,440 the people, especially to people who not only criticize the current government, but 313 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:30,559 also aren't super obsessed with trying to shrink the government to the point where it's 314 00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:36,760 non existent, but instead utilizing it to to ensure that it benefits the people, 315 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:43,159 the maturity especially and not the elites or the left or any other group 316 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,639 that is against the interests of the maturity of Yeah, exactly, I think 317 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:52,079 that. I mean, you've you really hit at one of the crucial essential 318 00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:57,159 critiques of libertarianism. I'll totally agree with all that. Yeah, But here's 319 00:34:57,199 --> 00:35:00,760 my next question, and I would just like to and this is just my 320 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:09,119 personal, a personal question, what is your opinion of representative of Thomas Messy 321 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,800 because he considers himself a libertarian. I haven't actually followed him much. I 322 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,880 know that he had, didn't he at one time promote skittle stuff? But 323 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,760 now supposedly he's moved away from that, And then, of course that's what 324 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,119 somebody was saying on a stream. I don't know that that's true because I 325 00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,199 don't usually keep up with these people, but I know he's drawn a lot 326 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,480 of criticism for his views of APAC now. So you know, if he's 327 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:42,360 moving in a positive direction, that's good. But if he's somebody who is 328 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,119 still, you know, wanting to push the sort of skittle stuff under the 329 00:35:45,159 --> 00:35:49,920 banner being a quote conservative. I think somebody had a really good point many 330 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,000 years ago as a podcast, and I cannot recall the guy's name. I 331 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,199 apologize, not trying to be unfair to him. I just don't remember his 332 00:35:55,280 --> 00:36:07,159 name calling something. But he did a podcast critiquing the way that Buckley co 333 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:15,719 opted paleo conservativism and kind of destroyed it with bringing in libertarianism, and I 334 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:22,280 thought that was a really good critique of how the actual history of conservativism in 335 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:28,360 America going from more of a paleo composition to the you know, libertarian position, 336 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,119 mainly via CIA operative William F. Buckley. I mean that tells you 337 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,400 right there, that's the whole story right there. And by the way, 338 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,360 most of those libertarian people in the sixties, seventies, eighties, as it 339 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:46,800 was sort of gaining popularity, were pretty closely allied with the CIA. In 340 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:52,800 fact, wasn't it forget that one guy's name, like the libertarian presidential candidate 341 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,199 guy from like ten years ago, was a former CIA operative. Now I'm 342 00:36:57,199 --> 00:37:04,360 not saying that that necessarily Metcalfe. No, he's a guy that Alex Joneses 343 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:10,599 have on all the time, Bob something. But the point is that not 344 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,559 even that, you know, I mean, you could conceivably have somebody who 345 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:17,199 worked in intelligence who's a conservative or a good person. But the problem is 346 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:23,400 that there seems to be this continual footprint of people in the libertarian sphere who 347 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:30,840 are almost always subservient to these sort of Rockefeller style Republican elites. That's why, 348 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,760 for example, Rockefeller wrote his dissertation initially under von Hayek. And if 349 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,440 you read Road to Serfdom, the appendix of Road to Serfdom is about world 350 00:37:38,519 --> 00:37:45,360 government. So libertarianism is another pathway to world government if you look at the 351 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:50,000 funding and the control structure. And I'm not saying that means that every individual 352 00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:54,480 libertarian is a bad person or whatever, but this is the problem with libertarianism 353 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:59,039 is that it doesn't have any fixed principles. Now, if there was intelligence 354 00:37:59,079 --> 00:38:04,360 people who who had solid values and weren't subservient to, you know, the 355 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,920 same oligarchical class, I wouldn't care. But I know the way that they 356 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:13,440 co opt and subvert these things, and it's always through these sort of you 357 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,199 know, shady operative people who pop up. It's just like that Evan McMullen 358 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,280 guy who was like the Mormon CIA guy who was trying to you know, 359 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,280 never Trumper dude. It's the same type of stuff. So it's not accidental 360 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:29,719 that the Libertarian Party just elected some like skittles, you know, putting things 361 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,039 in your butt dude. Yeah. And I would also like to add a 362 00:38:35,159 --> 00:38:40,880 especially when libertarians try and mix like the religious beliefs to sort of like compensate 363 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:49,840 for their lack of lack of being able to give ethical, moral and moral 364 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:55,679 principles for the world view exactly like Adam Windowcraft, for example, who was 365 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,119 a pretty well I mean, did you hear the debate I did with Yarnbrook? 366 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:05,719 Uh? I heard some of it, but enough fully and that was 367 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,760 the whole debate. So mh. By the way, can I point out 368 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:19,400 it's so silly to talk about free market when that's absolutely impossible giving the bank 369 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,159 an elite and like you and the tailtale sign too is that you know, 370 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:29,119 who's funniness? Who are the people kind of arguing and like you know, 371 00:39:29,199 --> 00:39:34,679 Mesa's institute and stuff. They're all funded by and connected to these bankers, 372 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,280 and there's not gonna be any free market within uh, capitalistic banking, elite 373 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:46,519 elitism, world bank kind of stuff. So it's just absurd because they present 374 00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:50,199 it. Libertarians present it like, we'll think about it. We're just on 375 00:39:50,199 --> 00:39:55,159 a small scale and we could just have a trade and uh, you know, 376 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,960 you could have your own small business and you wouldn't have to be interfered 377 00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:06,599 with. But they never have you found one libertarian critique of international banking systems, 378 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:08,960 Ron Paul, I mean, to be fair to some of them, 379 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:12,800 Yeah, I guess you're right, I mean, but I mean that's not 380 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,920 usually what we get with the Libertarian party. Isn't that you end up getting 381 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:28,719 these you know, lost Austin Peterson type idiots that why was thinking Yah Rothbard 382 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,280 and different stuff like I've never I just be ignorant, but I've never seen 383 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:39,519 out of any of them or Hay critiques of international banking systems. I mean 384 00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:44,639 that's well, I mean that that is to be that's actually a pretty fundamental 385 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,159 I mean some of them on Mesa's people do that, like G. R. 386 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,440 Griffin, you know, his whole ethos is that. I mean, 387 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,159 he wasn't a candidate, So I think you'll get these people who are the 388 00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:58,960 thinkers who will write books about that. But then the actual people who step 389 00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:05,280 forward to like you know, be statesmen libertarians, they don't really go with 390 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,119 that. By the way, the guy I was trying to think of as 391 00:41:07,119 --> 00:41:13,280 Bob Barr he was the two thousand and eight Libertarian presidential nominee. I think 392 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,199 he was also other years other than two thousand and eight. Bob Barker, 393 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:28,639 no bar. One other point I make about libertarianism too, This is important 394 00:41:28,639 --> 00:41:31,199 when we're doing in political philosophy. Was teaching it. I wanted the students 395 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,519 to be able to see the difference about how the ancients and those in antiquity 396 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:42,880 saw law in the state and have that fundamentally changed after the Enlightenment. So 397 00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:52,119 the man of antiquity saw the state is a natural organism and that law was 398 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:59,079 there to promote virtue of the citizen. Then you get to the Enlightenment people 399 00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:07,400 like Hobbes, and the state is conceived is kind of a necessary and artificial 400 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:14,000 it's a necessary evil, and it's an artificial construction. And then everything gets 401 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:19,239 cashed out, right because you have this kind of idea of the state of 402 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,519 nature. The man's just absolutely free, and so this becomes an like freedom 403 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:30,440 or what pure license becomes the absolute. So then the law itself has to 404 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:37,000 then be cashed out in terms of negative rights that it's never talked about this 405 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:45,800 and conceived in terms of no law should be there to squash vice and promote 406 00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:52,639 virtue. You won't find it anywhere in libertarianism because it's thoroughly Enlightenment Hobbs. 407 00:42:52,719 --> 00:43:02,800 You and we're so kind of blocking in amalgamation of nonsense. Yeah and yeah, 408 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,679 you can't really divorce that again from the history of this movement in America, 409 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,199 when you had again Buckley basically taking over the conservative movement with Basically Buckley 410 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,760 was constantly promoting Ann Rand, so you also can't divorce this from an Ran. 411 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:28,079 And the idea was that conservatism needs to move away from the traditional paleo 412 00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,480 values that it was connected with and it needs to adopt this more you know, 413 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:38,400 monetary obsessed framework, getting away from any notions of the collective, which 414 00:43:38,639 --> 00:43:43,880 is precisely where we are now and precisely why these libertarians are always contradicting themselves 415 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,079 and can't figure out, can't choose between, you know, somebody who's a 416 00:43:47,079 --> 00:43:52,159 conservative or total degenerate, because it's just a question of who's more or less 417 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,239 consistent. Because if there are no collective identities, as'ron Brooks said in 418 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,679 the debate with me, oh well, then I guess there's not a collective 419 00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:02,519 biological identities or either, is there. Yeah, and the entry really is 420 00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:07,480 exposed that once she debated Dave Smith. Yeah, not too long ago, 421 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,159 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, good questions there. I appreciate that from a 422 00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:17,559 point of view. But you know that a lot of the Libertarians are better 423 00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:21,400 than their system, and I think we can agree to that, you know, 424 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,480 and some of them are really good. Von Mesis books are good you 425 00:44:24,519 --> 00:44:28,920 know, the basics of economics from a lot of those guys is good. 426 00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:35,280 It's just that there's there's shortcomings and sort of like like it can't it can 427 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,760 only go so far right because it doesn't really tell us any of the oughts. 428 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,400 It kind of just lays out the sort of general ideas. And I 429 00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,480 agree with the idea that really to make the basics of libertarian doesn't work. 430 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:52,400 We kind of need Christian presuppositions, and metaphysics is really about the only way 431 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:59,519 to do it. And I think you could theoretically have some kind of some 432 00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:04,440 kind of a freer market system with some kind of a monarchy. Maybe I 433 00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,119 think that makes more sense. Maybe that's something to shoot for, because I 434 00:45:07,119 --> 00:45:13,360 certainly don't want to collectivist, centralized Soviet model. That doesn't seem to work. 435 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:20,960 So, you know, hammering out the specifics of you know, how 436 00:45:21,039 --> 00:45:23,039 much or how little government that's a I don't have any answers to that. 437 00:45:23,079 --> 00:45:27,280 It's a valid question. There's no easy answers to that either, because we 438 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,440 live in a really complex, you know, integrated globalist world, so I 439 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:36,199 don't know how we would even make that work. But I guess those are 440 00:45:36,199 --> 00:45:38,000 the basics that we want to shoot for. So we do have overlap with 441 00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:44,119 libertarians. We do have a lot of positive assessments of some of their positions. 442 00:45:44,639 --> 00:45:47,039 But when you get down to the nitty gritty, the very problems that 443 00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:51,840 the Libertarian Party has, for example, and trying to weed out and suss 444 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,039 out these degenerates, they can't do it because the pre subpositions of their whole 445 00:45:55,039 --> 00:46:01,199 worldview doesn't allow for them to impose the who are you as a libertarian to 446 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:07,719 impose an aunt You're infringing upon my liberty. So we either got to go 447 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,239 this Crollian route or we gotta say, all right, it's time to give 448 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:17,440 up the Enlightenment ideas and ground this in some kind of a Christian metaphysic space. 449 00:46:17,519 --> 00:46:35,559 Cowboy. So people are saying monarchy never works out. No, it's 450 00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:40,000 actually not true. In fact, the Byzantine Imperium is the longest lasting empire 451 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,920 in the history of the world. So what do you mean monarchies never work 452 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,719 out? I mean it's God himself who said that he would establish a monarchy 453 00:46:49,159 --> 00:46:52,159 with the House of David. So it's actually completely wrong. Nick Disert, 454 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:58,559 where that guy go? I guess he dropped off and they should read from 455 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:07,679 aristocracy what the hop haunts? From Hope's article from Aristocracy to Monarchy to Democracy. 456 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,719 Yeah, and every time we mentioned that somebody's like, who doesn't believe 457 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:19,320 in monarchy? Yeah, we're not saying that he believes in monarchy. The 458 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:25,119 point was just that he makes arguments that there was more liberty under some monarchies 459 00:47:25,159 --> 00:47:35,880 than under the present day republican democratic system. Go ahead and it what's something 460 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:42,280 man? You got? Mute? Dude? Sorry? So I had a 461 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:49,039 question in regards to your debate with Pinest. So I noticed that one of 462 00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:53,719 your objections was about the epistemological issues with his worldview and the back to foundationalism. 463 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,000 Can you elaborate a bit on that and how we don't really fall into 464 00:47:58,039 --> 00:48:00,719 that same error because I kind of had trouble following after that, right, 465 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:07,320 because if you notice, we've constantly argued for tag right transaill argument. Yeah, 466 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:13,960 that's connected to a holistic view of epistemology, which denies that there's anything 467 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,440 that's self evident. And the reason I think that is because anytime you try 468 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,840 to drill down into what you think is self evident or what you think is 469 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:27,400 axiomatic, it really falls apart very quickly because anything that you pause it, 470 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:31,000 for example, you're immediately in the dilemma of the criterion problem of Chisholm, 471 00:48:31,039 --> 00:48:35,039 where, on the one hand, if you want to say that you know 472 00:48:35,119 --> 00:48:39,280 something, that requires a criteria of knowledge, but to have a criteria of 473 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,280 knowledge also requires that you know something, so you see, you're caught in 474 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:49,360 an immediate sort of recursive circle there. It also deals with problems of delineation, 475 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,719 like if I think there are certain things that are self evident and certain 476 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:58,920 things that aren't, that actually presupposes a more prior category of sussing those two 477 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:02,760 categories out right, So I'm actually again contradicting myself by saying that, well, 478 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:07,840 there's all these self evident things, and that relies on my criteria of 479 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:13,039 self evident and non self evident things. So at every point, any position 480 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:20,800 that posits something being self evident ends up relying on brute factuality and the assumption 481 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,920 that our beliefs and our knowledge are not theory laden, that they're non theory 482 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,480 laden and therefore self evident brute facts. But the problem is that everything since 483 00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:37,519 the Enlightenment philosophy wise, has really demonstrated over and over and over that there's 484 00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:40,440 not brute facts. There's really no way to assume or accuse me to approve 485 00:49:40,519 --> 00:49:44,840 or demonstrate a brute fact. And every time we ask for the epistemic justification 486 00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:50,840 for brute factuality or self evidence, they immediately collapse and crumble. So when 487 00:49:51,039 --> 00:49:54,719 we have a different position, that's why it's called worldview apologetics, it's holistic. 488 00:49:55,119 --> 00:50:02,159 It's a holistic epistemology that doesn't include any epistemic bootstrapping move that's made. 489 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:07,920 All of their positions are based on epistemic bootstrapping. That's why even Sam Harris 490 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:12,360 right says, well, if I could just find one sort of Archimedean point 491 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,000 by which I can sort of leap off, then I can build an entire 492 00:50:15,079 --> 00:50:20,760 system. And that's the same enterprise. Whether you're a Thomas or whether you're 493 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,159 yar On Brook atheist, or whether your stuff on Malnu or whether you're any 494 00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:29,360 of these people. Have you not noticed even the Muslims, even Azra Rashid 495 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,000 right, his whole position, just like Jake the Muslim metaphysician, it all 496 00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:38,960 starts with self evident docsastic basicality of these starting points. And nobody can tell 497 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,199 me why I'm supposed to start there or why those things are the case. 498 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:51,239 It's just arbitrary. Okay, Uh yeah, I got that. I I 499 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,679 think my main question, and forgive me if I'm being kind of I'm kind 500 00:50:54,679 --> 00:50:59,760 of holding things up, but what do you think would be the papist sort 501 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:04,159 of starting point for that? Because I've been I've been kind of talking with 502 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:10,559 a friend who unfortunately went to Romantholicism instead of Orthodoxy, and he kind of 503 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,719 kind of always makes these same arguments, but he's never really we've never really 504 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:21,079 addressed the epistemological questioning exactly. That's why I'm going to that because just like 505 00:51:21,159 --> 00:51:23,760 I was saying with Tim, like when we were chatting in DMS, He's 506 00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:28,840 like, well, metaphysics doesn't allow you to have the essencenary distinction. I'm 507 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:31,079 like, well, says who. He's like, well, because that's like 508 00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:35,320 the metaphysics man, that's like what it is. And aquinas in Aristotle and 509 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,840 I'm like, are they God? I'm sorry, Like why am I supposed 510 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:44,159 to believe that, like their metaphysics is necessarily true? So you're asking a 511 00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:46,599 more fundamental question of like what are the starting points? Well, for example, 512 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:51,320 the peripatetic axiom is something that Aquinas accepts, and that there's nothing in 513 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,840 the intellect that is not first and sense data. So that's one of those 514 00:51:53,880 --> 00:52:01,440 things. Any of the other basic principles of Aristotilian natural science would be things 515 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,679 that most homists accept. They would just say that, well, how do 516 00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,920 we know that first principles are true? Well, you just have to assume 517 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:13,360 them to do anything, okay, But having to assume them or saying that 518 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,679 I can't see how it's otherwise doesn't actually grant me justification. And there's it's 519 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:21,039 very easy to demonstrate that that's not enough. Father Deacon has a whole paper 520 00:52:21,079 --> 00:52:23,039 on this. It's really good, just showing out showing that well, the 521 00:52:23,079 --> 00:52:27,719 fact that I can't conceive of it other or otherwise that doesn't actually mean that 522 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,039 it's that case the case in the world. Yeah, well, that would 523 00:52:31,039 --> 00:52:35,119 be like an appeal to ignorance, right, Yeah, you could say that. 524 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,280 Yeah, and that's if you have you read the Manion paper, because 525 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:43,360 he actually addresses all these these approaches. No, I haven't. But while 526 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,920 I'm att it, is it okay? Father? If you if you link 527 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,800 that paper so that I can read it, the Manion paper or his paper 528 00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,199 about justification. Both would actually be it. Uh, yeah, he's here 529 00:52:55,239 --> 00:53:01,679 if you can find it. You're putting the YouTube, Yeah yeah, if 530 00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:06,599 he's on YouTube. The Manu paper is called the Contingency of Knowledge and Revelatory 531 00:53:06,599 --> 00:53:09,360 Theism. That's the Manum paper. And he actually addresses this idea of the 532 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:20,480 tonistic notion of self evidence on the section under the deductive problem, and he 533 00:53:20,599 --> 00:53:24,840 says, well, for example, we might think that the world, the 534 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:30,599 external world, is coherent and rational and logical and ordered. But how do 535 00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:35,960 we know that that's not just our mental schema that we have in our minds 536 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:40,960 that we assume maps onto the world. And perhaps we're just schizophrenic or whatever. 537 00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,840 Again, like low IQ, people think that I'm saying that we're all 538 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:49,400 schizophrenic. I'm being a skeptic. These are just arguments that are defeaters for 539 00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,320 self evidence. That's all it is. Okay, I'm not actually arguing that 540 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:57,079 we're schizophrenic and that we don't have a coherent worldview. The point is that 541 00:53:57,559 --> 00:54:02,559 there's no account for these self open it in principles just by saying, well, 542 00:54:02,639 --> 00:54:07,920 they seem to be necessary and I can't conceive of it otherwise. And 543 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:12,119 so therefore I assume that it maps onto the world. Well, remember in 544 00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:19,800 epistemic self evidence or self or basicality or whatever, we're not supposed to be 545 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:25,000 assuming things, right, it's the that's the point of philosophy, I remember 546 00:54:25,039 --> 00:54:29,000 you well. But but I mean even in their own view, like even 547 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:34,119 as a foundationalist, if your self evident maxim assumes other things, then it's 548 00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:38,880 not self evident, right. No, I appreciate those I'm going to go 549 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,159 now, but thank you very much for the answering the questions, and thank 550 00:54:42,199 --> 00:54:45,719 you for the paper during the chat there. Yeah, And the irony is 551 00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:52,159 that anybody who's had like an epistemology class, which is again Thomas basically just 552 00:54:52,159 --> 00:54:55,159 don't I guess like they just sort of default to, oh everything, they 553 00:54:55,159 --> 00:54:58,880 got everything right in the Middle Ages and I don't have to care about anything 554 00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:04,519 or any challenge after the Enlightenment period. Is really just idiotic on their part. 555 00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:08,000 It It just shows that their whole system is based on authority, right, 556 00:55:08,039 --> 00:55:13,000 it's authority worship. Uh well, I don't need to who are you? 557 00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:15,079 Are you better than aristol and aquitas? That's literally what they'll say when 558 00:55:15,119 --> 00:55:17,320 you start drilling into this. So you think you think you're know about an 559 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,960 aquitas. Yeah, actually I do so, not because I'm so smart, 560 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:29,039 but because there's no one dude that I'm supposed to follow. Orthodoxy is not 561 00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:34,159 based around one dude. It's not surprising that Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, because 562 00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:37,039 they're both forms of Protestanism. Yeah, they're always based around one dude. 563 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:44,079 And that's why that guy that came on the Doug Wilson samp that came on 564 00:55:44,159 --> 00:55:47,840 Andrew stream to try to argue me. Why was he asking me, so 565 00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:53,599 you think any of the fathers could be infallible? I'm like, you just 566 00:55:53,679 --> 00:55:58,159 construct a Kamara in your head. Strong me. I'm like, no, 567 00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,800 orthodox believes that, Like, why are you thinking that? Well, it's 568 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:07,239 because that's the program they're running. One man is. Let's just call it 569 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,480 for what it is. It's one man is. And so they're attacking the 570 00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:21,880 kimara a stromium not right here in stromium that doesn't exist, we don't put 571 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,800 So if the Roman catholic is doing the protests, doing that in their own 572 00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:30,320 way, I think is what you're saying, right, Yeah, I mean 573 00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:37,480 there it's a tendency that I noticed that the attitude is not to think in 574 00:56:37,559 --> 00:56:42,559 terms of the universal mind of the church. For them, the universal might 575 00:56:42,639 --> 00:56:45,400 of the church is the pope. Right. For them, the universal might 576 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,760 of the church is that guy over there, Aquinas. You know what I 577 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:54,239 mean. It's just ironic because in a system that's supposed to be quote universal, 578 00:56:55,000 --> 00:57:00,639 it's always almost always as cultic as the product stint that follows Martin Driscoll 579 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:05,239 or John Calvin or Martin Luther. Oh, we follow that dude over there 580 00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,199 like he's the final say so. And remember, in the ancient medieval world 581 00:57:09,679 --> 00:57:14,599 they didn't really consider it typically a fallacy to cite authorities, Like citing an 582 00:57:14,639 --> 00:57:20,599 authority was a pretty strong argument. That's why this assume that Theologica is like 583 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,360 constantly just citing authorities. I mean, he does make logical arguments there, 584 00:57:24,559 --> 00:57:31,360 but in the Middle Ages it wasn't usually seen as immediately sort of fallacious to 585 00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:36,639 quote site authorities. But we don't think that way anymore. And this there's 586 00:57:36,639 --> 00:57:39,440 a reason for that, right, We don't automatically just all in the world 587 00:57:39,519 --> 00:57:45,320 assume that Aristotle's metaphysics were one hundred percent correct, so we can just well, 588 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,079 rocks have the essence of going down or whatever, and that's what makes 589 00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:52,760 a rock. It's going it's falling down essence. Okay, we don't think 590 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:57,559 that way anymore. Now. Whether it's true or not is not the point. 591 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,800 The point is that after the Enlightenment people start to say, well, 592 00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:06,239 wait a minute. This whole system that you have is constructed on the assumption 593 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,760 that you know the metaphysics. But before you can say, you know all 594 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:14,320 these grand metaphysical principles and truths, which again maybe they're true, how do 595 00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,440 you know that. I mean, I need an account of your knowledge before 596 00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:22,159 you. Before you do that, you're putting your You're putting your metaphysical cart 597 00:58:22,239 --> 00:58:28,920 before your epistemic horse. And so the Enlightenment philosophers correctly began to ask questions 598 00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:34,599 about epistemology which never were asked before, or at least never in that type 599 00:58:34,599 --> 00:58:40,320 of a way. Does that make sense what I'm saying? And the typical 600 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:45,159 sort of tone misresponse is to say something like, well, I just handwave 601 00:58:45,199 --> 00:58:47,239 all those questions. Okay, Well, but the rest of the world doesn't 602 00:58:47,239 --> 00:58:52,079 handwave that. Because the rest of the world is basically atheist and has adopted 603 00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:57,079 this this kind of view can't bring up a logical point when you were talking 604 00:58:57,119 --> 00:59:02,199 about because you get this with Thomas, not just Thomas too, but it 605 00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:08,360 comes out of kind of Cartesian is immediately that well I can't and this kind 606 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:15,360 of epistemic project of indubitability, Well, I can't doubt these things because self 607 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,199 evident has that kind of builty to day well, as soon as you understand 608 00:59:19,199 --> 00:59:25,079 the words and what they mean, to doubt it would mean that you contradict 609 00:59:25,079 --> 00:59:30,039 yourself. Now, I think it's important to point out, as Russ and 610 00:59:30,639 --> 00:59:35,320 myself have in the paper, all you've done is given me a description and 611 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:46,920 rights or this will happen, you contradict yourself. But the epistemologies and epistemic 612 00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:52,239 questions always link to the normative question because of justification. And justification is do 613 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:58,280 I hold this? Ought I to hold this for the right reasons, so 614 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,400 that, as I point out us that doesn't tell me anything that yes, 615 01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:08,599 should I not ought I not to contradict myself. All you've given me is 616 01:00:08,639 --> 01:00:14,440 a description, So you've never even got into the domain of justification. I 617 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:17,519 think it's really important to point out, and all of the people in natural 618 01:00:17,559 --> 01:00:22,159 theology and those that appeal the self evidence hold that so all you've gotten to 619 01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:30,119 is a descriptive level. You're just describing. Whicheh question itself of, well, 620 01:00:30,119 --> 01:00:32,320 how do you know that you're describing even that? Correct? Yes, 621 01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:37,679 that's exactly what. Well, I have to assume what I want to prove 622 01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:43,039 that I can know before I actually know. Yeah, and that's circular, 623 01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:52,760 and all epistemological self evidence promoters don't believe in circular. Yeah. Yeah, 624 01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:58,039 I mean the section in Manion's paper specifically, it's called the deductive problem, 625 01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:00,760 and in the section under that called logic, because he says, well, 626 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,559 if we were to look at things that we think are self evident, like 627 01:01:04,639 --> 01:01:07,199 say, the law of identity. While it might be true that I assume 628 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:12,599 the law of identity to reason about anything in the world, my assumption of 629 01:01:12,639 --> 01:01:16,920 that and my necessity of using that to reason doesn't itself make it true. 630 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:22,719 That's not enough for justification, because how do I know that it actually is 631 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,960 valid? In other words, it actually assumes a bunch of other things too. 632 01:01:27,039 --> 01:01:32,679 For example, he argues, induction presupposes deduction. Deduction presupposes induction. 633 01:01:34,119 --> 01:01:37,599 So if logic is circular, how do we know that it's actually the case 634 01:01:37,639 --> 01:01:40,880 that it works or applies to things in the world in terms of being self 635 01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:45,559 evident. Well, we don't know that other than just simply assuming it. 636 01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:52,079 And then also it's a circular sense. Well, I know because I did 637 01:01:52,119 --> 01:01:55,280 induction. It's worked in the Yeah, exactly, it's another appeal to circularity 638 01:01:55,519 --> 01:02:00,599 exactly. And that's the whole point that Hume make and will not point out. 639 01:02:00,719 --> 01:02:06,360 Human's critique doesn't mean I'm a Humian, just pointing out that now Human 640 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:12,960 is correct, that your appeal is fallacious on your own grounds. And that's 641 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:15,039 why this is so devastating, and that's why, really, you know, 642 01:02:15,159 --> 01:02:19,400 to end Tomism, all we really need to do is just point this out 643 01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,719 and then go to the Theophanes the three hours worth of the often these in 644 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:29,320 the Torah. Because that end, I'd like to debate you a bit on 645 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:39,000 uh Islamic perennialism. If you don't mind Islamic perennialism. Yeah, okay, 646 01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:44,679 well well one, so why Islamic perennialism or not some other form? No, 647 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:47,239 no, because that's the position in which I'm coming from. I don't 648 01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,039 mind. I just want to speak about what I'm certain grounds, you know, 649 01:02:53,039 --> 01:02:59,119 mainly the idea that perennialism necessitates you've expresses a couple of times, I 650 01:02:59,199 --> 01:03:06,360 think universalism and natural theology rather than revelation based metaphysics. I think that's a 651 01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:13,559 completely wrong position. Okay, Well, I mean you might appeal to like 652 01:03:13,599 --> 01:03:16,880 a self evidence notion of revelation or some sort of intuitive thing like maybe you're 653 01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:23,920 influenced by neoplatonism or something like that. Why should I think that Islamic perennialism 654 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:30,800 is true. The Again, I'm arguing generally for perennialism, not specifically slavi 655 01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:35,559 parianalism. I understand that. Okay, what is general perennialism, Like, 656 01:03:36,039 --> 01:03:40,599 how do I know what that is? Well, it's not. What that 657 01:03:40,719 --> 01:03:50,159 is essentially is the idea that there is cycles of revelation and that God reveals 658 01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:54,760 these revelations to the right people at the right time for the salvation of the 659 01:03:54,800 --> 01:04:00,880 human right and who is God? And how do you know that those revelations 660 01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:04,239 just like which revelations? Because that's going to exclude some others that claim to 661 01:04:04,239 --> 01:04:10,320 be revelation. Right, So what we're talking about in perennialism, I know 662 01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,840 what I know. I know I've read enough perennials to know that you believe 663 01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,719 that. But I want to know how you know that? Not just what 664 01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:26,719 is the position? Uh, it doesn't in a sort of I'd say economy 665 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:32,000 of God, in the sense that God preserves these traditions rather than Crolean. 666 01:04:32,039 --> 01:04:35,119 But six, let's say, okay, but wait a minute, why do 667 01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:42,440 you exclude the Kroleian sex element and say no, it's this other stuff on 668 01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:46,960 what what's the epistemic principle for that? Well, the epistemic principle is that 669 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:53,760 the from the beginning of the cycle of revelation. So let's say, if 670 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,360 we start a cycle of revelation most bareally started at let's say the Hindu cycle, 671 01:04:59,159 --> 01:05:04,800 none of that is ound in it, so and it reverse. So 672 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:09,719 you that's not You didn't give me an episomic principle. You stated your position 673 01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:13,360 again, How do I know that from the beginning of the cycle of revelation 674 01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:18,559 because there's not this sex element there in the ancient aeons ages ago, that 675 01:05:18,639 --> 01:05:24,800 there is not a new revelation that's part of the perennial tradition. Well, 676 01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:30,400 but a perennial is worth your soul by definition? Does not? Who decides 677 01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:36,760 those definitions? The traditions within themselves, and how do I know that tradition? 678 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:41,000 That's what I'm asking. So it's a circle here. No, no, 679 01:05:40,719 --> 01:05:44,880 no, the perennialism doesn't refer to a tradition. There's no perennialist religion. 680 01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,199 Where we go to perennialism. You just said, there's a preservation of 681 01:05:47,239 --> 01:05:54,440 the tradition, of the traditions, the old traditions Christians. So now all 682 01:05:54,480 --> 01:06:00,320 the traditions, but some of those traditions do include sex in the ancient world. 683 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:06,000 I would contest that point. So the ancient world never had sex. 684 01:06:06,039 --> 01:06:13,000 I mean, have you read the Old Testament for example, of course, 685 01:06:13,039 --> 01:06:16,360 but I don't think that we would attribute to that to the revelation of God. 686 01:06:16,519 --> 01:06:18,800 Again, that's what that's the point. So it's arbitrary. So you're 687 01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,159 saying I cut it off there, even though it's in the ancient text, 688 01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:28,480 I cut that off. It's not arbitrary because it's based on heart based revelation 689 01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:31,079 of God. You're begging the question now because I asked you, how do 690 01:06:31,119 --> 01:06:32,920 I know what it is? And you're just saying that, well, it's 691 01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,880 the position that I hold, that's what it is. How do you know 692 01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:44,039 that you have the right delineator between the true and the false tradition? Could 693 01:06:44,119 --> 01:06:47,079 I not turn that question to your specific tradition? Well, you can do 694 01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:49,800 a two quote way. That's a fallacy. I'm happy to address that through 695 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:56,079 tag, but I'm asking you for your position. No, I don't want 696 01:06:56,119 --> 01:07:00,159 to do that. Of course you don't want to do that. Right up, 697 01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:08,440 other world, Moving on, Maximos, what's up? So we just 698 01:07:08,519 --> 01:07:12,199 lost like three hundred people over that. So, hey, what's up? 699 01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:18,039 Yes, sir question it might be related to the other guy. But so 700 01:07:18,239 --> 01:07:25,960 I run into two pieces and they were proponents of what they call process philoscopy. 701 01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,079 And I don't know if you have put any critiques on process philosophy slash 702 01:07:29,119 --> 01:07:32,480 theology. I mean we've had those people call in in twenty eighteen nineteen, 703 01:07:32,639 --> 01:07:36,519 and I mean it's all usually again very low level argumentation. They just say, 704 01:07:36,599 --> 01:07:41,000 well, it's just again, most of these people just assert this stuff. 705 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:43,440 They never get a justification for why we're supposed to think that it's true. 706 01:07:45,639 --> 01:07:48,199 Right, So, like, what would be like a quick reputation for 707 01:07:48,719 --> 01:07:54,840 this position, Well, why are we supposed to think that God is? 708 01:07:56,119 --> 01:07:58,400 That is God? Why are we supposed to think that's about that's that's an 709 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:03,559 accurate descripture of description of God. Uh right, right, And if I'm 710 01:08:03,559 --> 01:08:08,079 not mistaken, right, there's like what's the guy Whitehead or something like that, 711 01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:13,760 that he was Alfred North Whitehead? Yah, right exactly. I mean 712 01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,640 they're usually just sort of asserting a lot of things out of hegel and this 713 01:08:15,720 --> 01:08:19,159 kind of stuff. So all right, yeah, I just thought, I 714 01:08:19,159 --> 01:08:24,159 don't know, maybe a had some like like an essay or refutation on this 715 01:08:24,239 --> 01:08:28,439 precision, but that's all I just I wanted, Yeah, I mean it 716 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:32,039 just I'm just gonna immediately go to pre sup. So so I don't know 717 01:08:32,039 --> 01:08:34,079 what people are thinking of that. I mean if the if the stream or 718 01:08:34,119 --> 01:08:36,800 the internet cuts out for a second, doesn't mean the streams ended, nothing 719 01:08:36,880 --> 01:08:41,560 ended. We're still here. So I don't know what you guys are talking 720 01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:46,960 about. I mean my on my end it says excellent connection. So I 721 01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:53,880 don't know. Aracoda five dollars, Jam, I'm not wanting to annoy you. 722 01:08:54,199 --> 01:08:57,359 Did you accidentally block me? Uh No? I saw you just spouting 723 01:08:57,359 --> 01:09:00,079 a bunch of gibberish. So I usually block people that spout at me gibberish 724 01:09:00,079 --> 01:09:05,159 and don't actually make any kind of argument, and they repeatedly spelled gibberish. 725 01:09:05,199 --> 01:09:10,319 Would you unblock me? Perhaps I'll think about it. Glocktavius twenty five dollars 726 01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:15,000 question mark? What is your question mark about? Gloctavius. I don't know 727 01:09:15,199 --> 01:09:18,960 how to answer that, but I appreciate that twenty five dollars very much. 728 01:09:19,079 --> 01:09:24,119 Octario's ten dollars. Have you considered doing in person discussions and debates on college 729 01:09:24,119 --> 01:09:30,680 campuses? I don't know. It would be fun and bring viewers. Yeah, 730 01:09:30,760 --> 01:09:34,840 I guess so, nor ten dollars. Can you respond to the argument 731 01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:40,920 that Muslims make that Jesus didn't know the day or the hour? We've responded 732 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,279 to it probably one hundred times. If you go to the Preacher's Institute article, 733 01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:48,119 there's a great discussion from Saint Basil addressing those passages. It's an Orthodox 734 01:09:48,600 --> 01:10:09,680 website, Preachers Institute. Did Jesus know the day in the hour? Was 735 01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:35,079 Jesus ignorant? Of course it never comes up. It's this website here, 736 01:10:39,079 --> 01:10:42,359 and there was an article just citing Basil, was Jesus anger at the time 737 01:10:42,359 --> 01:10:45,920 of the Second Coming. It's probably the best article on this. It's been 738 01:10:45,800 --> 01:11:06,680 here for how many years? This article was written in twenty eleven. Mark 739 01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:13,479 Carney one dollar. Libertarian economics is based their morality is lacking an Arco christendom. 740 01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:16,039 Yeah, I don't think there's anything about anarchy that's Christian. I mean, 741 01:11:16,359 --> 01:11:19,560 I don't know where people get this. I mean, very clearly, 742 01:11:20,039 --> 01:11:25,880 the Bible teaches monarchy and teaches the institution of the state as a divine entity. 743 01:11:26,319 --> 01:11:30,880 It's not a bottom up human social construct. But pretty much all libertarianism 744 01:11:30,960 --> 01:11:35,760 is based on that assumption. Low pen ten dollars. Just read My Godfather's 745 01:11:36,039 --> 01:11:40,840 Essay by Dean Arnold on Biblical monarchy. Low pen ten dollars, Thank you 746 01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:45,119 so much. J quo three dollars. My friends and I are Roman Catholic 747 01:11:45,199 --> 01:11:55,399 because their girlfriend are Catholic, Well, then your friends are basically cucking to 748 01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:59,840 But JJ, I mean, if they're going to make their religious decisions on 749 01:11:59,840 --> 01:12:04,279 the basis of their girlfriend, then your friends have much bigger problems. Then 750 01:12:04,319 --> 01:12:08,560 you probably think it's awkward whenever we talk about God. They have it all 751 01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:13,479 wrong. Any tips on friends like this, I mean, they're already doomed 752 01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:18,000 from the outset because if they were masculine and doing things properly, they would 753 01:12:18,039 --> 01:12:21,840 have converted their girlfriends to their religion, not the other way around. So 754 01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:30,279 they're gonna have much bigger problems down the road than that, unfortunately. All 755 01:12:30,399 --> 01:12:34,920 right, let's see he's next again. If you guys are just calling in 756 01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:39,359 with Orthodox questions, I appreciate that. But today we're going to people who 757 01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:57,600 disagree atheism. Go ahead, Atheism, go ahead. I like this guy 758 01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,920 just named atheism unite to just trade up. Go ahead? Man. What's 759 01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:09,680 up? Well, you don't hear anything? If you want to turn your 760 01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:23,479 mic on space cowboy? What's up? Hey, Jay? Can you hear 761 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:29,720 me? Okay? First, I want to thank you. You've been a 762 01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:34,119 good influence on my orthodox journey so far. Second, my question is on 763 01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:45,000 narcissism. A good friend of mine we went on a narcissist journey, you 764 01:13:45,039 --> 01:13:49,239 know, for a while, and I deviated, went back to Christianity and 765 01:13:49,399 --> 01:14:00,800 have pursued orthodoxy. My question is simply, what would be your primarily fortitude 766 01:14:00,800 --> 01:14:04,760 against naism? Are you drunk right now? Bro? No? Sorry, 767 01:14:05,399 --> 01:14:12,279 I got a speech compairment, Soka, But yeah, I mean gnosticism first 768 01:14:12,319 --> 01:14:15,239 of all, is relativistic. I mean, it doesn't actually give us any 769 01:14:15,319 --> 01:14:18,279 kind of objective ethic. That's an easy critique to make. And uh, 770 01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:23,039 you know, gnoscissism is also kind of incoherent. There's not one gnosticism. 771 01:14:23,039 --> 01:14:28,359 It's kind of a patch work typically of like a bunch of weird, contradicting 772 01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:31,479 ancient systems. So there's not one gnosticism that you can choose from. There's 773 01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:36,960 all these conflicting you know, gnostic gospels and texts and esoteric you know, 774 01:14:38,119 --> 01:14:42,520 sort of platonic or neo platonic things going on. So it's kind of all 775 01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:46,399 over the place and usually kind of falls over into like far Eastern mysticism of 776 01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,359 maya or denying reality or reality is an illusion, this kind of stuff. 777 01:14:50,359 --> 01:14:54,600 I mean, it's it's just kind of it's not a real system. It's 778 01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:58,520 just kind of an arbitrary thing that people say, you have a nasty dude, 779 01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:00,279 And then when you ask what they what they believe and how they know 780 01:15:00,279 --> 01:15:05,880 it's true, they just reassert whatever nonsense they think. So I would start 781 01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:11,479 asking questions like, Okay, well why should I believe narcissism. Why do 782 01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:14,920 you think nacissm is for? How did you come to know this? Right? 783 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:19,399 Just again, just just pre sell it, bro sir, Yes, 784 01:15:19,479 --> 01:15:31,800 sir, sir, what's up, dude? Yes? Can you hear me? 785 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:36,800 Yes, ma'am? All right, Yeah, So I love your stuff. 786 01:15:38,079 --> 01:15:41,920 I don't have any debate points personally, but I got some questions on 787 01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:48,560 how to debate Pentecostalism. Right, as you probably know, it's like growing 788 01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:54,479 incredibly in Iran. So my question is like, how do we as Orthodox 789 01:15:54,560 --> 01:16:00,159 Christians debate pentecostal specifically? And I guess, like in my head, the 790 01:16:00,159 --> 01:16:03,479 the first debate point would be, you know, explaining, you know how 791 01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:09,319 Pentecostalism was founded in the nineteen hundreds by this guy named Charles Fox Parham, 792 01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:13,279 right, and this guy was expelled from the Methodist Church. He did in 793 01:16:13,399 --> 01:16:18,439 complete Bible school training. And the thing that no pentecostal knows is the fact 794 01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:23,720 that this guy was caught in a hotel room with a young Jewish boy in 795 01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:27,560 nineteen oh seven. So, like he was literally arrested for sodomy. Yeah, 796 01:16:28,119 --> 01:16:31,119 I'll ease up, bro, we're on YouTube. Oh sorry, right, 797 01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:33,920 I know what you're saying. Yeah, so he was he was a 798 01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:41,239 creeper. He was a creeper. Yeah. So, like I'm trying to 799 01:16:41,319 --> 01:16:45,680 understand how like such a movement is growing, and how we as Orthodox Christians 800 01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:54,399 can debate and disprove this would would be would we essentially try to prove an 801 01:16:54,560 --> 01:17:00,279 orthodox position by explaining orthodoxy? And then also, yeah, so just to 802 01:17:00,319 --> 01:17:03,760 make this right, So to make this really clear, we literally just did 803 01:17:03,920 --> 01:17:11,039 like a three hour live stream rebutting all forms of Pentecostalism and charismaticism a few 804 01:17:11,119 --> 01:17:13,920 days ago. So if you go back to my stream like a week or 805 01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,760 two ago, we went into all the texts, all the proofs of the 806 01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:23,159 fact that revelation is not ongoing. It ended with the death of the apostles, 807 01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:27,079 so none of these people will actually are actually prophesying anything. They're diluted 808 01:17:27,960 --> 01:17:32,079 Isaiah twenty eight, the text in Zechariah about the end of prophecy in the 809 01:17:32,239 --> 01:17:35,399 Messianic age. I mean, all of these really contribute to this, as 810 01:17:35,399 --> 01:17:41,680 well as Paul's pointing Galatians one that there are no new revelations. This cuts 811 01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:46,079 off by the way Islam too, so we automatically know. And the stream 812 01:17:46,159 --> 01:17:56,399 that we did was let me find it. So guys, remember, and 813 01:17:56,399 --> 01:17:59,640 I'm not trying to be mean to you guys, but I always get every 814 01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:01,720 time people call in I get these questions. And again I'm not complaining because 815 01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,560 I understand people can't follow all these streams. But if you just go and 816 01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:10,640 look at my channel, and if you click on live streams and you click 817 01:18:10,960 --> 01:18:15,560 all of these open debates, I typically retitle them based on who called in 818 01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:19,239 and what the majority of the debates were. So we literally just had a 819 01:18:19,279 --> 01:18:29,479 gigantic charismatic evangelical discussion not too long ago. If I can find it right 820 01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:33,760 here, Protestant and Catholic charismatics open debate right here, four weeks ago, 821 01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:41,600 right here. See this. So remember I usually title the streams based on 822 01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:44,800 the things that we talked about, and when we do these streams, the 823 01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:48,600 reason that they're so long is because we usually address each of these issues with 824 01:18:48,680 --> 01:18:54,640 a lot of sufficient time and attention. So if your questions are these kinds 825 01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:59,119 of like FAQ basic type questions, remember guys, you can always go look 826 01:18:59,159 --> 01:19:03,239 on my channel at these streams where we typically have covered these things. And 827 01:19:03,239 --> 01:19:10,039 it's not just this time. I actually covered charismatic type stuff probably ten times 828 01:19:10,039 --> 01:19:15,439 in the last six years, going back to twenty eighteen, so that just 829 01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:30,199 kind of helps us, you know, keep the topics current Thomas. You 830 01:19:30,279 --> 01:19:43,800 gotta a mute braw got an arm you know. Roh Thomas, you have 831 01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:46,880 to unmute man. Hello, Sorry I didn't then come through. Yeah, 832 01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:51,319 I just had a question in regards to I get those letter. I a 833 01:19:51,520 --> 01:19:55,680 Roman Catholic guy. I keep going on about that, basically saying that it 834 01:19:55,760 --> 01:20:00,560 proves the papacy, you know, supremacy and infallibility because of the way Agatha 835 01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,520 use a certain text in scripture. So I'm just curious to your response to 836 01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:06,479 that. Yeah, we've already done, right, We've done multiple Yeah, 837 01:20:06,479 --> 01:20:10,159 I understand. I'm not gonna be rude. So we just covered this not 838 01:20:10,199 --> 01:20:14,079 too long ago. If you go to my clips channel right here, I 839 01:20:14,119 --> 01:20:17,720 did a whole not this one, my clips channel, not not Kyle. 840 01:20:19,319 --> 01:20:24,800 So there's a whole ten minute video, fifteen minute video addressing Agatho's letter right 841 01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:29,720 here. I'll put in the chat for you guys. Let's see, it's 842 01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:34,720 called does the letter of Agatho teach prove the papacy? Right? Eleven minutes 843 01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:40,720 and I go through all the reasons why it's kind of really silly to think 844 01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:57,199 that. Al Right, next up atheism, I'm gonna try again. Hello, 845 01:20:57,239 --> 01:21:00,600 can you show me. Yeah, man, what's up? Does the 846 01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:04,560 work? Now? Yeah? All right? So Jay, I've been on 847 01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:10,439 the show one month ago or something, and I'm an ultimatius. I'm a 848 01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:15,239 Christian orthodox. I was talking with this guy was an acquaintance of mine, 849 01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:24,159 and he's kind of like, how would I classify he? He is agnostic, 850 01:21:25,119 --> 01:21:29,560 right, and he posts some questions that I want to address to you. 851 01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,840 So if you're willing to hear him, right, so I mean I'm 852 01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,600 not, I'll do it. But like every time I put the topics up, 853 01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:41,199 nobody calls in about the topics. So there's nothing about atheism and tag 854 01:21:41,279 --> 01:21:45,159 today and that's when everybody calls in about atheism atag which is fine, But 855 01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:49,279 I mean I literally put the topics in the show description, so there's no 856 01:21:49,399 --> 01:21:54,279 tag or atheism in there. But go ahead. Yeah, to be honest, 857 01:21:54,359 --> 01:21:59,359 I told him to today that he was a pagan, but unfortunately he 858 01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:01,960 is. Yeah. Well, I mean we just we just dealt with, 859 01:22:02,039 --> 01:22:06,920 for example, the agnostic guy right here, Like this was a whole twenty 860 01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:11,960 six minute funny conversation with an agnostic. But go ahead, what's the question. 861 01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,720 So it's a conversation between me and him this guy particular right, and 862 01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:21,600 he says, I don't believe your God is real because the evidence is just 863 01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:28,840 a book full of myths ripped from other existing religions. Chio Shant, who 864 01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:36,279 is from mentioned from the zoro Astrianism. Do you have any I mean, 865 01:22:36,319 --> 01:22:40,640 I have no idea why we would think that. First of all, it's 866 01:22:40,680 --> 01:22:45,000 a fallacy that because something supposedly comes earlier, it's necessarily true. Also, 867 01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:50,439 the people will sort of do this fallacy of similarity equates to ripping off. 868 01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:58,079 But actually the Messianic prophecies are prior to Zoroastrianism, So even secular scholars would 869 01:22:58,159 --> 01:23:01,000 date the Torah prior to Orsism, so there's no reason, you know what 870 01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:06,640 also doesn't fallow from the zoroastrian I've seen this argument before the Babylonian captivity. 871 01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:14,800 They were close to the Zoriaastrians, and therefore they must have been infected by 872 01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:18,039 some of their theology. You have to understand what Zoroastrianism. You can't convert 873 01:23:18,039 --> 01:23:24,359 to Zoroastrianism. To be even a priest and Zoroasteran you have to be and 874 01:23:25,359 --> 01:23:30,800 the priestly lineage, and they're extremely esoteric. In other words, they're not 875 01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:34,560 interested in converting people. They didn't tell anybody about their theology. We didn't 876 01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:41,800 come to find out more about until much later. But there's no way at 877 01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:47,239 that time that they want to say that the Israelites or Christians were influenced by 878 01:23:47,319 --> 01:23:53,359 Zoroastrism. That would be impossible. They would never have talked about their theology. 879 01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:56,359 So it's another just kind of made up ad hoc. We'll see if 880 01:23:56,399 --> 01:24:00,640 I make up this story, how I can find similar Yeah, what's the 881 01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:05,640 actual demonstration, By the way, what's the actual proof that Zoroastrianism that Jews 882 01:24:05,720 --> 01:24:09,760 ripped offs rations? I mean, that's an that's an assertion, But what's 883 01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:14,159 the actual proof of that? So remember your atheist friends and your agnostic friends, 884 01:24:14,159 --> 01:24:16,439 they love these sort of Zeitgeist level arguments of sort of patch work. 885 01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:19,800 Oh well, look at this is similar Like the pope wears a hat and 886 01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:25,720 it looks like the ancient Egyptian pharaoh. Therefore the pope is the ancient Egyptian. 887 01:24:26,079 --> 01:24:30,479 It's just silly, like that's an assertion based on like just the appearance 888 01:24:30,520 --> 01:24:35,359 of similarity. Well that's a fallacy, so, I mean it represents a 889 01:24:35,399 --> 01:24:42,319 mental illness, right, Remember the same sort of kind of like this conspiratorial 890 01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:45,079 thinking. Well, look at this numbers here, and you see if you 891 01:24:45,119 --> 01:24:46,439 turn it this way, then it makes it his sign. Yeah, it's 892 01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:49,319 a lot of non sequitors, the same as the Gomatria weirdos, which is 893 01:24:49,359 --> 01:24:54,760 ironic because the agnostic would want to be a skeptic when it comes to like 894 01:24:54,800 --> 01:24:59,479 the you know, Gamatria quash, and then he's actually using the same type 895 01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:04,439 of filation. This argumentation based on superficial similarity to say that therefore, uh, 896 01:25:04,479 --> 01:25:09,159 you know, Christianity ripped off Zoroastrianism or something like that. But what's 897 01:25:09,199 --> 01:25:11,800 the actual argument for that being the case, rather than just asserting it, 898 01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:15,760 Peter, by the way, or Astrianism is a dualistic religion. Christianity is 899 01:25:15,760 --> 01:25:27,680 not a dualistic religion. Yo. Jay, Hey, how's it going, 900 01:25:28,760 --> 01:25:31,159 man? I really appreciate what you do. Uh. Before I ask my 901 01:25:31,319 --> 01:25:34,479 question, just want to let you know you're always talking about your like sinus 902 01:25:34,520 --> 01:25:40,119 issues and stuff for allergies. One thing that's helped me with similar issues is 903 01:25:40,199 --> 01:25:42,600 mullin. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. M U L 904 01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:45,039 L E I N. It's like a It's like a plant and it always 905 01:25:45,079 --> 01:25:48,359 helps me breathe a little clear, So maybe that might help you. I 906 01:25:48,399 --> 01:25:51,920 just want to appreciate that. What's your what's your question or topic? So 907 01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:59,560 I got really interested in Carl Jung and I've studied some of his stuff, 908 01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:01,359 done research, and I wanted to see what you have to say. I 909 01:26:01,399 --> 01:26:05,039 went back and watched some of your videos and you mentioned that kind of at 910 01:26:05,079 --> 01:26:10,239 the end, is you know his Red Book he kind of comes out with 911 01:26:10,319 --> 01:26:14,840 this gnostic type. Well it's not just the Red Book. He also has 912 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:17,920 an a thing, a treatise called aon where he says Jesus and Antichrist are 913 01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:24,159 the same. M hm. So could you explain that a little more in 914 01:26:24,199 --> 01:26:29,039 detail for me? I want to understand that, like it's crazy. What 915 01:26:29,039 --> 01:26:31,840 do you mean explain how Like it's total quackery. Why would we think Jesus 916 01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:35,159 an Antichrist or flip sides at the same coin. That's that's Charles Manson level 917 01:26:35,159 --> 01:26:41,119 theology most definitely right. But what about what about some of his other concepts, 918 01:26:41,159 --> 01:26:44,960 like the archetypes or well, I mean that's just stuff that we would 919 01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:49,079 get from Plato. So archetypes and patterns in reality is not new to Carl 920 01:26:49,159 --> 01:26:53,039 Young, and uh, you know, I've read Carl Young books over the 921 01:26:53,119 --> 01:26:55,640 years here and there, and I think he's insightful. He's useful for like 922 01:26:55,760 --> 01:27:00,319 literary analysis. Uh there's a there's a famous literary scholar in the Northrop Fry 923 01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:06,600 and he bases his literary analysis on archetypes. So it's there's nothing inherently wrong 924 01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:11,920 with that because it's just pattern recognition and this kind of stuff. But Carl 925 01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:15,279 Young kind of takes Plato and this kind of stuff and makes it like a 926 01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:20,520 it's almost a kind of a new religion where you know, psychology psychoanalysis is 927 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:26,720 like another version of gnosticism. And the Red Book makes that very explicitly clear, 928 01:27:26,720 --> 01:27:31,079 where Carl Jung's like thinking that this you know, mystical old man being 929 01:27:31,199 --> 01:27:35,920 is appearing to him and giving him revelations. So he's basically I'm serious, 930 01:27:36,079 --> 01:27:39,359 Yeah, yeah, that is it. Okay, So I wanted to get 931 01:27:39,399 --> 01:27:43,720 to that kind of right like, because there's at he's definitely like some type 932 01:27:43,720 --> 01:27:48,680 of mystical figure. And I really appreciated his his trying to kind of revive 933 01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:54,039 modern mysticism. That's kind of how I saw it, And you know, 934 01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,720 it's it was helpful for me, especially once I started looking into Orthodoxy. 935 01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:01,960 Then I started to see that actually, whether like Orthodox priests know it or 936 01:28:02,000 --> 01:28:06,880 not, they're acting in a type of psychological way as they should be, 937 01:28:08,039 --> 01:28:11,600 right, because psychology is the study of the soul. So you know, 938 01:28:13,359 --> 01:28:15,680 a true you know, you know, you might say Christians should be a 939 01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:19,560 true psychologist as well, someone who knows the soul. Because yeah, but 940 01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:26,239 it's not an intellectual endeavor. It's what priests do when they diagnose the virtues 941 01:28:26,279 --> 01:28:30,199 and the biases. And Carl Jung's approach approach to being a you know, 942 01:28:30,239 --> 01:28:34,199 analysis of the soul is a bunch of repackaged gnosticism. That's not what Orthodox 943 01:28:34,239 --> 01:28:40,960 priests do, Father Deacon, could you speak to analysis. Well, first 944 01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:47,640 of all, they ideally have acquired the virtues, the spiritual virtues, to 945 01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:57,279 be able to diagnose how when second they're given a divine charisma from God. 946 01:28:58,880 --> 01:29:01,720 So the city of man versus city a man versus city of God. It's 947 01:29:01,760 --> 01:29:10,800 not the priest and any kind of man made philosophy or medicine that he's creating 948 01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:15,880 to the heals. It's God that heals, and the divine offices and sacraments 949 01:29:16,039 --> 01:29:21,239 of the church, and the more that the priest participates in acquiring the virtues, 950 01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:27,279 the more he participates in the divine energies, and the more he brings 951 01:29:27,279 --> 01:29:34,600 about healing. So a secular philosophy or a secular therapist or they can do 952 01:29:34,680 --> 01:29:39,960 that. They don't. They don't have the divine power. They're apostolos. 953 01:29:40,399 --> 01:29:46,079 Yeah. And also let's keep in mind that I mean the the process of 954 01:29:46,199 --> 01:29:53,680 what is happening to heal you in union psychoanalysis includes things like integrating the demonic 955 01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:57,119 or the shade into your personality. That's the opposite of what we teach. 956 01:29:57,159 --> 01:30:00,119 We teach that you have to purb yourself of the vices, not in to 957 01:30:00,119 --> 01:30:02,720 grate them into your psyche. That's precisely why Carl Jung says that Jesus and 958 01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:06,479 Antichrist or flip sides of the same coin, and that you need to integrate 959 01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:12,600 them both into you. Right. That's that this is totally like totally demonic 960 01:30:12,680 --> 01:30:15,800 satanic philosophy. And I've read aon. I don't know what people in the 961 01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:19,800 chat are saying, Yes I do, I've read aon and it's you that's 962 01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:24,079 in delusion, not you, Peter asking the question the guy in the chat 963 01:30:24,720 --> 01:30:28,560 who's like, you don't understand it. No, you're in delusion and thinking 964 01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,079 that you have some sort of like deep super mystical insight, which is uh 965 01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:40,079 like just delusion. Yeah. So look, sometimes the Internet is not the 966 01:30:40,119 --> 01:30:42,520 best. You know, well, I don't know what to tell you. 967 01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,920 By the way, it's weird because the notifications aren't telling me that there's anything 968 01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:53,119 going on. So sometimes it just cuts out. I don't know, and 969 01:30:53,119 --> 01:31:00,079 then it comes back just just welcome to welcome to exfinity com whatever. Man, 970 01:31:01,159 --> 01:31:03,039 it doesn't matter how many times I call and have him out here. 971 01:31:03,159 --> 01:31:27,319 Nothing doesn't do anything. All right, who's next? So today is for 972 01:31:27,319 --> 01:31:30,000 people who disagree, and please keep it to the topics. And that guy 973 01:31:30,319 --> 01:31:38,520 was on topic because it does say gnosticism, so I appreciate that. At 974 01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:43,800 ev. What's up, mandaji h? What's a good response to Jesus was 975 01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,119 a Muslim? I mean, if you read the Gospel of John, Jesus 976 01:31:46,199 --> 01:31:51,159 was a Trinitarian. He identifies himself in every chapter as the son of God. 977 01:31:53,399 --> 01:31:58,039 Islam is very clear that God Allah has no sons, So literally every 978 01:31:58,079 --> 01:32:00,760 reference to Jesus saying he was the son of God is a refutation of Islam. 979 01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:05,199 Allah does not have a son explicitly in the Koran. So this idea 980 01:32:05,199 --> 01:32:09,600 that Jesus was a Muslim is just like literally the dumbest argument of all time. 981 01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:14,199 Noah Am two dollars. Is there a tryad of body, soul, 982 01:32:14,279 --> 01:32:18,720 spirit that's different from spirit? I don't know what that means. Spirit is 983 01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:23,840 the news, it's the heart, it's not the intellect. So that might 984 01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:28,000 answer your question, Patrick, five dollars. How would you prove orthodoxy to 985 01:32:28,039 --> 01:32:33,119 refute Mormonism if somebody is well learned and entrenched in Mormonism. Well, I 986 01:32:33,119 --> 01:32:39,600 mean Mormonism again falls in many ways, like the idea that the Church died 987 01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:44,600 out and was restored by this quack in the eighteen hundred's the idea. I 988 01:32:44,600 --> 01:32:46,399 mean, that's Matthew against Matthew eighteen. The gates of Hell not prevailing against 989 01:32:46,399 --> 01:32:51,239 the Church. The idea that God is that God, the Father was once 990 01:32:51,279 --> 01:32:57,880 a man with a physical body is a preposterous. God is spirit. Jesus 991 01:32:57,920 --> 01:33:00,640 says very clearly, no one is seeing God at any time. No one 992 01:33:00,680 --> 01:33:04,520 has ever seen the Father. John one, John four, John five. 993 01:33:04,640 --> 01:33:10,479 I mean, how would we can at all come from that to think that 994 01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:14,439 God the Father was a man with a body who became God. It's just 995 01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:19,079 it's idiotic idolatry. So it's anti trinitarian. So I go to all the 996 01:33:19,079 --> 01:33:23,600 theophanies in the Old Testament. That guy that called in the other night actually 997 01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:26,680 might have been a Mormon, not a Joe's Witness, so it could be 998 01:33:26,680 --> 01:33:30,000 either one, but he was probably Mormon. So you could go watch that 999 01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:35,800 interview or that debate with that guy, Addie, what's up, hey, 1000 01:33:35,880 --> 01:33:40,760 j how's it going good? What's up hey? So that last chat, 1001 01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:44,159 I mean, that's that's kind of the the question that I'm going to be 1002 01:33:44,199 --> 01:33:46,920 talking about. So I'm an ex Mormon and I just started looking into the 1003 01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:51,560 Eastern Orthodox Church, so I haven't been Mormon in a long time. So 1004 01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:55,840 I kind of hope that my argument is good faith. I'm sure I'll get 1005 01:33:55,880 --> 01:33:59,560 a lot of flak for it. But okay, so Mormons that so we 1006 01:33:59,640 --> 01:34:03,680 they are that the church went into apocessy after the death of Christ and his 1007 01:34:03,840 --> 01:34:08,239 apostles. Okay, well, so let's start with Matthew sixteen. Right, 1008 01:34:08,279 --> 01:34:11,840 what does it say? Right? Honestly, off the top of my head, 1009 01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:14,279 I don't know. I haven't been Mormon or religious and very long. 1010 01:34:14,359 --> 01:34:18,319 Do you have any idea what they might say about that passage? What is 1011 01:34:18,359 --> 01:34:21,319 it Matthew sixteen? Yeah, the gates of Hell would not prevail against the 1012 01:34:21,399 --> 01:34:25,319 church. Like, how are we going to have a blackout theory? If 1013 01:34:25,399 --> 01:34:30,319 that's If that's the case, Well, in Mormonism there's a concept of what 1014 01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:32,039 is it. It's a modern revelation, right, so it's kind of like 1015 01:34:32,359 --> 01:34:39,000 right, papal supremacy, where the prophet can what they say can supersede the 1016 01:34:39,039 --> 01:34:42,479 previous one. So when you look into the scripture, it may not actually 1017 01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:46,000 like be one for one with how the Mormons really believe. So in other 1018 01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:49,880 words, okay, so in other words, the scriptures are actually subservient to 1019 01:34:50,199 --> 01:34:54,960 the new revelation. So basically like the way the Talmud trump's the Bible, 1020 01:34:55,399 --> 01:34:59,239 or the way that the papacy trump's whatever came before you're saying that, So 1021 01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:01,239 you're not going to a lot a whole lot of like a solo script era 1022 01:35:01,439 --> 01:35:05,640 from a Mormons. Well it's not does, but it's not sol just like 1023 01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:11,680 well, it's not sold scripture to refer to the Bible. Okay, right, 1024 01:35:11,760 --> 01:35:14,239 to go ahead, Yeah, sorry, I don't. I don't know 1025 01:35:14,239 --> 01:35:16,840 all the terms yet, so that's okay. But yeah, so they would 1026 01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:19,880 probably just say, like, oh, well, it's been revealed now by 1027 01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:25,319 Joseph Smith or like by a later prophet that the church did with like maybe 1028 01:35:25,319 --> 01:35:30,000 the original twelve, well after the twelve, like the seventy. Yeah, 1029 01:35:30,239 --> 01:35:33,119 over a period of time, like them being normal men, like maybe they 1030 01:35:33,159 --> 01:35:35,720 just kind of like diluted over along. Okay, well let's start with that, 1031 01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:41,239 because are you aware of like Deuteronomy thirteen and Deuteronomy eighteen or familiar with 1032 01:35:41,239 --> 01:35:46,079 those passages kind of what their point is Deuteronomy was it thirteen, thirteen and 1033 01:35:46,159 --> 01:35:50,359 eighteen? Yeah, no, I'm not so, I'll just summarize it really 1034 01:35:50,399 --> 01:35:53,359 quick. You can go look it up later. But both of those passages 1035 01:35:53,399 --> 01:35:58,720 basically tell us that any future coming revelation has to be consistent with what came 1036 01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:02,399 before. So all cults, whether Islam or Mormonism, they reverse that and 1037 01:36:02,439 --> 01:36:06,600 they make the new revelation be the standard which judges what came before. But 1038 01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:13,359 those passages, being historically prior to any new revelations, require us to judge 1039 01:36:13,399 --> 01:36:16,560 everything that comes on the basis of the prior. So this is why it 1040 01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:23,439 was so crucial for Jesus and the New Testament authors to make sure that what 1041 01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:29,479 they were teaching was constant or consistent and coherent with the Torah and the prophets. 1042 01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:32,279 That's why they're always referring to it. So the New has to be 1043 01:36:32,319 --> 01:36:36,039 consistent with the Old. Also, we are told, for example, in 1044 01:36:36,119 --> 01:36:43,840 Zechariah thirteen, that there are no new revelations or prophets when the Messianic era 1045 01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:45,960 comes, and if you look at a lot of exegutes, they will typically 1046 01:36:46,039 --> 01:36:51,039 execute Zakariah thirteen as a passage about the time of the Messiah. One of 1047 01:36:51,039 --> 01:36:56,520 the key indicators of that time will be that when people begin to say, 1048 01:36:56,600 --> 01:37:00,800 oh, I'm a prophet, I have new prophecies, they will say to 1049 01:37:00,880 --> 01:37:03,520 him, you are no prophet, you are a farmer. And anyone who 1050 01:37:03,560 --> 01:37:09,840 tries to prophesy will be excommunicated or quote put to spiritual death. So we 1051 01:37:10,159 --> 01:37:15,159 reject the notion in the Messianic era that there will be the continuation of the 1052 01:37:15,159 --> 01:37:18,399 prophetic office like we saw with the time of the Apostles. So when we 1053 01:37:18,439 --> 01:37:21,880 come to the New Testament, we see that. In Galatians one, Paul 1054 01:37:23,199 --> 01:37:30,760 reaffirms this principle of if anyone comes to you with a new gospel or a 1055 01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:38,279 new revelation, and even if it's an angel, does Paul say that one 1056 01:37:38,319 --> 01:37:42,520 Trump's No, he says, anyone who comes with that new angelic revelation is 1057 01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:48,680 automatically discounted. Whether it's Jibriel speaking to Mohammed or whether it's Moron speaking to 1058 01:37:49,039 --> 01:37:54,680 Joseph Smith. It says, as clear as day, no new revelations. 1059 01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:59,479 They're accursed from the outset automatically. That's why if you go watch the debate 1060 01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:04,680 with Danielay Kikachu, the famous Muslim, he continually messes up by saying that 1061 01:38:05,039 --> 01:38:09,960 no, no, the Quran judges everything that came before, even though the 1062 01:38:10,359 --> 01:38:14,079 read the Koran to learn that the Koran is true. And then yeah, 1063 01:38:14,119 --> 01:38:16,000 and then even though the Quran says to judge the Quran the basis of prior 1064 01:38:16,079 --> 01:38:19,119 revelation, when I go to prior revelation, they say no, no, 1065 01:38:19,159 --> 01:38:24,319 that's all corrupt, even though Koran doesn't actually say that the prior revelations corrupt. 1066 01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:29,159 So a lot of similarities with Muslims and Mormonism, I see with the 1067 01:38:29,399 --> 01:38:33,199 debates that you've been in. Yeah, so yeah, that's that's really helpful. 1068 01:38:33,239 --> 01:38:35,119 Now. Also, by the way, I mean, let me make 1069 01:38:35,159 --> 01:38:38,880 a couple more points and then I'll let you speak. The next point I 1070 01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:42,479 would make is if we go to Revelation twenty two. Even though this is 1071 01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:46,800 not immediately talking about the canonical scriptures, there is there is an application to 1072 01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:53,920 the canonical scriptures because the Final Text, which providentially became the final text in 1073 01:38:54,359 --> 01:38:58,640 the Bible canon, it specifically says that you can't add to or take away 1074 01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:01,279 from the book. So technically, yes, it is talking about the Book 1075 01:39:01,319 --> 01:39:08,640 of Revelation, but since providentially it becomes the final book in our canonical text, 1076 01:39:09,359 --> 01:39:13,119 it still applies that the principles there that you can't add new revelations, 1077 01:39:13,239 --> 01:39:16,079 right, because Revelation twenty to eighteen makes this point that if you add to 1078 01:39:16,199 --> 01:39:20,039 this or you take away from it, you remove yourself from the Holy City 1079 01:39:20,079 --> 01:39:24,560 and from the Book of Life. So there is a specific warning here about 1080 01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:30,119 being removed by adding to the Divine Revelation. I think that principle applies even 1081 01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:33,439 though there's not yet a bound up, fixed canon at the time of John 1082 01:39:33,479 --> 01:39:38,520 writing this. So the last final point that would make is that most of 1083 01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:43,079 the time when we get heresies like Muhammad and Islam, or Joseph Smith or 1084 01:39:44,279 --> 01:39:47,079 Charles Parham, the Pentecostal guy we mentioned a few minutes ago, or when 1085 01:39:47,119 --> 01:39:54,359 we get Ellen White right, the founder of Seven day Adventism, like the 1086 01:39:54,399 --> 01:39:59,479 commonality between all those groups say is we are a new revelation and everybody before 1087 01:39:59,520 --> 01:40:03,239 got it wrong and there was some kind of blackout. Well again just out 1088 01:40:03,319 --> 01:40:08,520 of hand. Those are all canceled by the text that we've looked at so 1089 01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:13,479 far, and by the fact that as an Orthodox person, the condemnation of 1090 01:40:13,960 --> 01:40:18,359 the Montanists in the Early Church also helps me know this, because the Montanists 1091 01:40:18,359 --> 01:40:24,960 taught that there was new, ongoing revelation, and they were automatically discounted and 1092 01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:30,359 considered heretics. Now, the famous Early Church theologian Tertullian famously became a Montanist 1093 01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:34,840 and is considered a heretic and outside of the Church, precisely because he adopted 1094 01:40:34,840 --> 01:40:42,439 this heretical position of new ongoing public revelations. In one last caveat, we 1095 01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:45,760 do believe in miracles. So this is not to say that there's no you 1096 01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:49,760 know, saint or elder who lacks you know, the gift of clairvoyance or 1097 01:40:49,760 --> 01:40:54,279 something like that. But a saint or an elder having clairvoyance is not the 1098 01:40:54,319 --> 01:40:59,199 equivalent of public divine revelation. Okay, So for example, we're not going 1099 01:40:59,279 --> 01:41:02,920 to like adjust the Nicene creed because you know, elder so and so amount 1100 01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:08,640 Athos had a vision or something like that. There's nothing wrong with those things, 1101 01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:15,239 but they're never equated to or accounted equal to the statement that Jude gives 1102 01:41:15,319 --> 01:41:24,520 us. Remember that the very one but Jude says early on, Jude says 1103 01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:32,439 the earnestly contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 1104 01:41:32,920 --> 01:41:36,000 And this is very important for our position because it lets us know that 1105 01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:43,239 everything necessary was given to the apostles in the Apostolic deposit. That's why, 1106 01:41:43,279 --> 01:41:47,520 for example, Orthodox don't accept the Roman Catholic view that icons evolved. Right 1107 01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:51,520 if you read the seventh that Chemical Council, it argues that icons were the 1108 01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:59,399 Apostolic practice by tradition. So we are never conceding. And again you're absolutely 1109 01:41:59,439 --> 01:42:03,640 right in pursuit, I think to recognize the similarity between the papacy as well 1110 01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:10,119 and Joseph Smith or Mohammad. Yeah, and I mean even with like the 1111 01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:13,399 first vision, I mean with the Mormons, like Muhammad, I think, 1112 01:42:13,600 --> 01:42:16,199 and I don't. I don't really know too much about Islam either, but 1113 01:42:16,439 --> 01:42:21,159 from what I understand, like Mohammed's pretty consistent with even like his his encounter 1114 01:42:21,399 --> 01:42:28,199 with the Angel. But I know Joseph Smith, he has four different accounts 1115 01:42:28,199 --> 01:42:30,760 of it. So, I mean he says that he sees God and Jesus 1116 01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:33,000 in a garden or a pillar of fire or a thousand Well, I would 1117 01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:36,039 actually argue that when you get into the hot deaths and all that, and 1118 01:42:36,319 --> 01:42:41,600 even in the Kurrn itself, Mohammad's account is not consistent. Well there you 1119 01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:47,319 go. Well that's because actually Islam is a patchwork of pseudopographical text Talmud, 1120 01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:55,560 Bible, Christian traditions, stories, myths. It's like all kind of compacted 1121 01:42:55,600 --> 01:43:01,119 into one book. So it's not going to be consistent. Well cool, 1122 01:43:01,159 --> 01:43:04,479 I mean that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. The Apostolic what is 1123 01:43:04,520 --> 01:43:11,000 it, Apostolic succession? Like that's a really When I learned that there were 1124 01:43:11,039 --> 01:43:15,199 like first century saints that we have the writings of, like that just kind 1125 01:43:15,199 --> 01:43:17,840 of blew my mind. I never heard of that concept growing up as a 1126 01:43:17,880 --> 01:43:20,520 Mormon. So but yeah, so, I mean, that's that's my argument. 1127 01:43:21,279 --> 01:43:28,399 We actually even have the Apostolic Canons, which were go back even to 1128 01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:32,439 the Apostles. Uh, it's the first collection of church law. Yeah, 1129 01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:38,319 weren't actually written down during the first couple of centuries because of the persecutions, 1130 01:43:38,319 --> 01:43:43,520 and then we're being to be written down. That gives you a real good 1131 01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:50,039 idea of confirming orthodoxy. And I also have made this argument against Mormons too, 1132 01:43:50,199 --> 01:43:59,319 because they believe in continuing revelation, that that it's an epistemic defeater. 1133 01:43:59,560 --> 01:44:06,199 If that were true, if Jay quoted Jude that if we did not receive 1134 01:44:06,279 --> 01:44:18,399 the fullness of the teachings from Christ and didn't allow for new public revelations, 1135 01:44:18,439 --> 01:44:26,239 then we'd never actually know what Christ actually taught because you could just constantly appeal 1136 01:44:26,279 --> 01:44:30,880 to Yeah, yeah, well that's something. It was a missing tech. 1137 01:44:30,960 --> 01:44:34,079 You didn't know it was missing, you see, or God. I mean, 1138 01:44:34,079 --> 01:44:39,840 how would you determine, right, Nolan understood the actual original meaning meaning 1139 01:44:39,880 --> 01:44:43,960 of Christ's words. It was all everybody interpreting it differently, and then each 1140 01:44:44,000 --> 01:44:46,880 subsequent prophet is having the more correct interpretation. Is that kind of what you're 1141 01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:54,239 saying well, I'm saying that the reason why we know that certain books and 1142 01:44:54,359 --> 01:45:00,279 teachings are not Christian is because we have the whole right and we that it 1143 01:45:00,319 --> 01:45:04,079 doesn't match the whole. Now, you can't have your cake and eat too. 1144 01:45:04,159 --> 01:45:10,720 You can't say you have a whole theology that nothing's missing and then say, 1145 01:45:10,760 --> 01:45:13,880 but we have open public revelation, we have new revelations that come. 1146 01:45:14,079 --> 01:45:16,560 How can you have new when it's complete and whole, right, And if 1147 01:45:16,560 --> 01:45:20,760 it's not complete and whole, then I have no way of determining whether maybe 1148 01:45:20,760 --> 01:45:24,880 that was what Christ is taught. Maybe I don't know, Like how would 1149 01:45:24,960 --> 01:45:28,760 you you have to have the whole teaching presented in order to be able to 1150 01:45:28,800 --> 01:45:31,520 identify heresy and be like, that's not part of it, because anybody can 1151 01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:38,359 just say that it is point And Mormonism you run into like examples of the 1152 01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:43,960 contradicting to like the temple, their temple ritual rights, where I think in 1153 01:45:43,960 --> 01:45:46,479 the scripture says these are fulfilled, these are whole, they will not leave 1154 01:45:47,119 --> 01:45:51,520 or be changed ever again. But I mean every decade or so that the 1155 01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:58,000 actual ritual changes. Like they used to motion that to their throat that they 1156 01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:00,439 cut up in their throat or something, and they don't do that anymore, 1157 01:46:00,640 --> 01:46:03,840 or they would go in in and be naked. But ever since the sixties, 1158 01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:06,359 like, there wasn't really good flavor in people's mouth about that. So 1159 01:46:06,439 --> 01:46:12,239 the church changed something that previous revelation said was whole or complete or anything. 1160 01:46:12,319 --> 01:46:17,319 So yeah, I can see how that now. Real quick, I want 1161 01:46:17,319 --> 01:46:20,840 to address because there was another comment from a guy who I think maybe was 1162 01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:25,720 a Mormon or former Mormon. Patrick for three dollars says, Mormons will say 1163 01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:30,039 that the church was restored, and it's consistent with Matthew sixteen because they'll say 1164 01:46:30,079 --> 01:46:32,840 that the gates of Hell didn't quote permanently prevail against the Church, but only 1165 01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:36,119 for a time. Well, the problem with this interpretation is that if you 1166 01:46:36,159 --> 01:46:41,079 look at Jesus' promises in John fourteen, he says, if you love me 1167 01:46:41,159 --> 01:46:43,720 keep my commandments, I will pray to the Father he will give you another 1168 01:46:43,840 --> 01:46:48,800 helper that he might abide with you forever. So we're actually promised in what 1169 01:46:48,920 --> 01:46:53,960 happens at Pentecost, which, by the way, if people aren't aware, 1170 01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:57,279 if you read Acts too, Pentecost is the pouring out of the spirit on 1171 01:46:57,319 --> 01:47:01,039 the collective Church at its very foundation. Okay, so it's not an individual 1172 01:47:01,159 --> 01:47:05,039 just personal sort of subjective thing. I mean, the Holy Spirit does relate 1173 01:47:05,079 --> 01:47:11,600 to the individual. But the essence of Pentecost is the reversal of the Tower 1174 01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:14,760 of Babel, of the confusion of the nations, and the Church being united 1175 01:47:14,800 --> 01:47:17,760 as a reversal of that. That's in the Orthodox liturgy on the Day of 1176 01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:23,520 Pentecost. It all refers back to Babel and how Babbel's reversed and the collective 1177 01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:27,119 pouring out of the spirit means that the possession of the Holy Spirit is the 1178 01:47:27,159 --> 01:47:30,239 possession of the collective body of the apostles and their successors. That's why Paul 1179 01:47:30,279 --> 01:47:34,960 says in Timothy that when you lay hands on people who you choose to be 1180 01:47:35,039 --> 01:47:40,000 your successor, Timothy, don't do it hastily, because in the laying on 1181 01:47:40,079 --> 01:47:44,359 of hands is the passing on of the gift of the Holy Spirit. So 1182 01:47:44,520 --> 01:47:48,119 notice John fourteen says that the gift the Holy Spirit never leaves the church. 1183 01:47:48,880 --> 01:47:54,079 If it's passed on by the successors Allah what Paul says to Timothy, then 1184 01:47:54,199 --> 01:48:00,840 it abides with the Apostolic succession in history, and thus we can't interpret Matthew 1185 01:48:00,880 --> 01:48:04,520 sixteen to be a blackout that is quote restored, So it's just completely missing 1186 01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:13,720 the whole point of absolute succession. Uh in in that rereading. Well that's 1187 01:48:14,119 --> 01:48:15,199 perfect for me. Yeah. Again, this is all new to me, 1188 01:48:15,319 --> 01:48:18,479 so I appreciate all these arguments. Now, those are great points, Father 1189 01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:20,399 Diacon. Could you speak a little bit to this. I got to use 1190 01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:26,279 the restroom. I gotta go t T Are you there? Yeah? Are 1191 01:48:26,359 --> 01:48:28,760 you? Are you able to or do you have any other points? Maybe 1192 01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:31,920 because I know you had recently talked to a woman in that in your region 1193 01:48:31,920 --> 01:48:35,399 who was Mormon and was sort of trying to argue against you know what, 1194 01:48:35,439 --> 01:48:40,800 did you see any other commonalities of like responses to these kinds of Mormon critiques 1195 01:48:40,800 --> 01:48:45,680 of orthodoxy? And well, what I did see is that and I talked 1196 01:48:45,680 --> 01:48:53,159 to we have a Mormon family at one of our sister parishes up here that 1197 01:48:54,000 --> 01:49:00,680 I mean their family that were Mormon and converted. And I wanted to kind 1198 01:49:00,680 --> 01:49:09,359 of get the psychology of what's kind of going on with Mormons and you know, 1199 01:49:10,439 --> 01:49:13,319 why they're not responding to certain kind of arguments or why do they do 1200 01:49:14,079 --> 01:49:18,439 And the person told me, they said, there's no amount of arguments that 1201 01:49:18,439 --> 01:49:25,920 you could give one of them that if they're a regular attending Mormon, they're 1202 01:49:26,079 --> 01:49:30,960 taught basically never to question this stuff, doesn't matter what kind of evidence, 1203 01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:35,960 and so it's really kind of grounded emotionally, and which is often the case 1204 01:49:36,039 --> 01:49:43,640 that we see with stuff that And then I myself or somebody else might ronest 1205 01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:46,479 the approach me and think that, well, if I just give them this 1206 01:49:46,560 --> 01:49:49,359 argument, they're going to have to respond to this, and they'll have to 1207 01:49:49,359 --> 01:49:56,520 see it. And why aren't they. Well, the mistake lam Vegas because 1208 01:49:57,479 --> 01:50:00,880 that they're actually open that they would consider evidence, or maybe I misinterpreted that 1209 01:50:01,079 --> 01:50:05,720 verse, or yeah, maybe it doesn't mean that. And he had said, 1210 01:50:05,760 --> 01:50:09,079 there's nothing you can do, he says, the only people that you 1211 01:50:09,079 --> 01:50:13,239 could actually reach in the Mormon community somebody who just had a bad experience of 1212 01:50:13,279 --> 01:50:17,720 some sort there or is already starting to doubt, he says, But for 1213 01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:26,520 like regular pledging attending Mormon, there's literally nothing you can say to them. 1214 01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:33,520 They have such a tight control and community that they keep you in that it's 1215 01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:40,800 so emotionally and psychologically grounded that like it's a waste of time to actually bring 1216 01:50:40,960 --> 01:50:45,920 up So the reason that being said is with this individual and some others, 1217 01:50:46,199 --> 01:50:53,239 they'll have this. They train him to do this. Oh I'm interested in 1218 01:50:53,920 --> 01:50:59,600 what did the Orthodox believe? Oh that's interesting. We have something similar if 1219 01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:01,840 you ever have them come to the door to door, right, I mean 1220 01:51:02,039 --> 01:51:06,640 door to door to your door. I was found it interesting in that. 1221 01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:10,479 Why are we all focusing on the sam We we have that too, you 1222 01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:15,079 see we Why don't we just nail it, nail it down and ask it 1223 01:51:15,119 --> 01:51:19,439 out on the differences. Why don't they start with that? And they said 1224 01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:25,600 they trained in that way kind of psychologically to get you like, oh, 1225 01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:29,319 hey, they're interested, right, So that ultimately what they're trying to do. 1226 01:51:29,359 --> 01:51:32,600 They have no interest in the Orthodox Church or anything outside of the faith 1227 01:51:33,760 --> 01:51:39,399 if they're a regular attending Mormon or if they're an elder doing missionary or going 1228 01:51:39,399 --> 01:51:45,000 door to door. So's it's a ploy to basically gets you to think that 1229 01:51:45,239 --> 01:51:50,359 they're interested and they're going to lure you and invite you to some of the 1230 01:51:50,399 --> 01:51:59,119 Mormon events. So keep that in mind. Don't throw your pearls before swine. 1231 01:51:59,159 --> 01:52:01,600 If like, if it is somebody and he used to just ask what's 1232 01:52:01,600 --> 01:52:06,279 your attendance on them. What's your experience in the Mormon faith? Well, 1233 01:52:06,319 --> 01:52:11,279 I think too, like you know, and being Mormon, like the missionaries 1234 01:52:11,279 --> 01:52:15,000 are a little different because there is a lot of social shaming if you don't 1235 01:52:15,039 --> 01:52:17,680 go on a mission or if you don't fulfill a complete one. So you 1236 01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:20,479 know, trying to fight with them may not be like the best thing because 1237 01:52:20,479 --> 01:52:27,680 they have like familial consequences, even though you know, Jesus said I come 1238 01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:30,560 as a sword, you know, between families and stuff, like the right 1239 01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:34,039 thing is the right thing. But also you're just kind of some guy in 1240 01:52:34,119 --> 01:52:41,399 there in their perspective, you don't have any authority or or or freestood knowledge. 1241 01:52:41,479 --> 01:52:44,279 Well, let's let's just be honest too, Like I mean, I'm 1242 01:52:44,279 --> 01:52:48,239 playing an image here that somebody had recorded of one of the moremon temple ceremonies 1243 01:52:48,279 --> 01:52:53,720 on YouTube. I mean, this is all quite obviously borrowed from freemasonry, 1244 01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:56,920 right, I mean, yeah, that's to me, that's just obvious. 1245 01:52:57,039 --> 01:53:00,960 Like even you mentioned the spitting a throat, that's a Freemason. Yeah, 1246 01:53:01,119 --> 01:53:05,079 and Joseph Smith kind of came up with that stuff when he first got inducted 1247 01:53:05,119 --> 01:53:09,520 into freemasonry. And you still have a lot of Mormons that are Freemasons. 1248 01:53:10,880 --> 01:53:13,760 But yeah, I mean, one thing though about Mormonism that I find, 1249 01:53:13,880 --> 01:53:18,199 like, even when arguing my own family, consequentialism seems to be a pretty 1250 01:53:18,199 --> 01:53:19,840 big thing. And I know I'll get a lot of flack about this, 1251 01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:26,319 but Mormonisms has something called the Plan of Happiness, that God's ultimate goal for 1252 01:53:26,359 --> 01:53:30,119 you is to be happy, and a lot of them will start questioning their 1253 01:53:30,159 --> 01:53:33,479 belief when they start feeling like like you were saying, the experience is not 1254 01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:36,720 lining up with their happiness. So they'll be like, oh, well, 1255 01:53:36,720 --> 01:53:40,960 going to church or being in a family, or not being able to do 1256 01:53:41,119 --> 01:53:44,479 hard drugs or whatever, those aren't making me happy. So a lot of 1257 01:53:44,479 --> 01:53:47,239 the time when they leave the church, they still are primed for that way 1258 01:53:47,239 --> 01:53:50,680 of thinking. So they'll, you know, they'll go off the deep end, 1259 01:53:50,760 --> 01:53:55,319 drink as much as they can, you know, engage in risky sexual 1260 01:53:55,319 --> 01:53:57,640 behavior and all that. So, I mean, I don't know if there's 1261 01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:00,760 like a way to really argue about that. Maybe start looking holes of like, 1262 01:54:00,800 --> 01:54:01,960 oh, are you really happy? But I don't even know if that's 1263 01:54:02,000 --> 01:54:05,079 like that might just be an effective strategy, but may not be like the 1264 01:54:05,079 --> 01:54:09,600 way to get like a right Christian follower, you know what I mean. 1265 01:54:10,520 --> 01:54:15,800 Yeah, Well, I think this guy was just saying that whether to know 1266 01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:23,000 if it's somebody that that's actually genuinely interested in orthodox here or not, Like, 1267 01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:27,479 what's the how would I tell among a Mormon? This is, well, 1268 01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:30,640 if it's somebody who's a regular tithing, regular attempt Mormon, like, 1269 01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:35,600 you're not gonna get interested. No, No, we have a guy who 1270 01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:40,159 wants to come and discuss he might be a Mormon. And I've got up 1271 01:54:40,159 --> 01:54:44,000 here on the screen the you'll notice the handshake here from behind the veil. 1272 01:54:44,119 --> 01:54:48,600 This is obviously borrowed straight from Freemasonry, with the Masonic handshake between the guy 1273 01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:51,680 in front of the veil and the guy behind the veil. Uh. And 1274 01:54:51,920 --> 01:54:58,520 this is hidden camera footage of Mormon temple ritual recently. Winner I think it 1275 01:54:58,520 --> 01:55:00,439 was going viral everywhere, So got we'll go watch this. You can watch. 1276 01:55:00,720 --> 01:55:04,760 It's not that exciting. It's just kind of like a boring Masonic thing. 1277 01:55:05,239 --> 01:55:11,199 But the interesting too, is that talking to some Mormons, I knew 1278 01:55:11,199 --> 01:55:15,000 that they weren't being truthful about their own Mormonism. Like one thing they were 1279 01:55:15,039 --> 01:55:21,239 saying, it's we have no heart hierarchy whatsoever. It's it's all kind of 1280 01:55:21,279 --> 01:55:26,560 democratic. Children have just as much authority, and I might I just know 1281 01:55:26,640 --> 01:55:30,760 that's false. Be some more changes over the more recent years. I know 1282 01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:34,600 that the church has kind of started de emphasizing some of that hierarchical stuff. 1283 01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:40,239 They've kind of removed, like we used to have classes for men and women. 1284 01:55:40,680 --> 01:55:45,079 Now they've kind of combined that into a single power together. They've kind 1285 01:55:45,119 --> 01:55:48,079 of de emphasized some of like the differences between men and women, and like 1286 01:55:48,119 --> 01:55:53,159 if you ask, like if you have you're suppose it's supposed to be like 1287 01:55:53,239 --> 01:55:59,000 profit president down to like your bishop, to like your your actual dad. 1288 01:55:59,279 --> 01:56:00,800 But if you have con in flicks between that, it's the same thing as 1289 01:56:00,840 --> 01:56:04,479 like Protestantism. It's like I also get personal revelations. So let's say my 1290 01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:09,439 bishop, my dad, and I have personal revelation. That all differs. 1291 01:56:09,199 --> 01:56:13,840 There hasn't been a big push by the church leadership to really kind of clarify 1292 01:56:13,880 --> 01:56:16,680 who you're supposed to follow, So kind of right now we're seeing Mormonism. 1293 01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:19,880 It is kind of like every man for himself. But again, I've been 1294 01:56:19,880 --> 01:56:24,479 Mormon for a long time, just observing as an outsider. I appreciate that, 1295 01:56:24,520 --> 01:56:27,119 and we're going to go on to the really good questions. For the 1296 01:56:27,119 --> 01:56:29,279 people that are saying that they have a hard time searching, Yes, I 1297 01:56:29,319 --> 01:56:34,720 understand it's not really feasible to search Google for my videos. The best way 1298 01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:38,119 to do it is to go to my channel. And a lot of people 1299 01:56:38,159 --> 01:56:41,560 don't know this, but where those tabs are listed, you can actually search 1300 01:56:41,560 --> 01:56:45,319 the channel. So a lot of people don't know that that's the best bet. 1301 01:56:45,880 --> 01:56:49,079 But even that doesn't typically work that well because the algorithm is just it 1302 01:56:49,159 --> 01:56:53,640 is just weird, like it doesn't pull up stuff like you would think the 1303 01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:56,920 way it's titled. Also, I don't even remember all the stuff that I 1304 01:56:56,960 --> 01:56:59,680 titled the videos, so then I have to try to remember how I titled 1305 01:56:59,680 --> 01:57:03,920 it. Wi Is. It's hard. So but it's open for him. 1306 01:57:04,000 --> 01:57:08,000 So we're opening it up. Now. This guy, I don't know if 1307 01:57:08,039 --> 01:57:11,319 it's the same guy that put the super chat up, Hank says, tell 1308 01:57:11,399 --> 01:57:15,359 Jim Bob now, today Jim Bob said that new agers are all syllipsis. 1309 01:57:15,439 --> 01:57:18,840 Yeah, I think so, I would say syllipsism is true for the root 1310 01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:24,800 of mind only. Well, syllpicism isn't true. So why would you think 1311 01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:31,319 syllipsism is true at all? The mind of God? Well, again, 1312 01:57:32,000 --> 01:57:35,399 our world is based on divine revelation, so it's not based on any kind 1313 01:57:35,399 --> 01:57:42,760 of like sillipsis philosophical speculation. So I don't know where you're where you're getting 1314 01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:59,079 that? Uh? Uh? Oh, Adam King wants to debate? Go 1315 01:57:59,119 --> 01:58:08,279 ahead, dude, Get I'm mute. Man. Oh hey, I love 1316 01:58:08,399 --> 01:58:11,560 to touch here. Jay. Oh, you're not the Adam King. I 1317 01:58:11,560 --> 01:58:14,880 thought you were thought to the other guy. Oh, I've not been up 1318 01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,760 before. Bro. Well there's another dude named Adam King that's always wanted debate. 1319 01:58:17,800 --> 01:58:19,600 I thought you were him. Never mind, go ahead. No, 1320 01:58:19,640 --> 01:58:23,800 I've not been up before. I've just got I've got quite a few questions, 1321 01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:28,359 but I'd love to ask you a few. Do you study Hebrew and 1322 01:58:28,399 --> 01:58:32,039 Greek? Uh? No, I'm a philosophy student. I'm not a linguistic 1323 01:58:32,079 --> 01:58:36,239 guy. Okay, neither of my I Are you aware that it's spoken in 1324 01:58:36,479 --> 01:58:42,920 three languages like the letter the number in the picture? Yes, okay, 1325 01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:45,960 do you know why that is done? Well? I know that the ancient 1326 01:58:46,039 --> 01:58:51,560 world just typically used the letters for their number system as well. Okay, 1327 01:58:51,800 --> 01:58:57,880 And the pictures. Well, some ancient world views, you know, like 1328 01:58:57,960 --> 01:59:02,079 ancient Chinese and Japanese, like they had an iconographic connection to their language as 1329 01:59:02,119 --> 01:59:08,359 well. Okay, okay, I'm trying to learn Orthodoxy because I've got quite 1330 01:59:08,399 --> 01:59:11,640 a few people who follow me or orthodox I've got quite a few new orthodox 1331 01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:17,039 mates. How many books in your Bible? Uh? Well, we have 1332 01:59:17,159 --> 01:59:24,239 the Duro canon, so whatever that is the sixty six Protestant books plus the 1333 01:59:24,319 --> 01:59:26,399 Dudo Canon. I don't know. I forget how many that is off the 1334 01:59:26,399 --> 01:59:30,560 top of my head, because a couple of the books aren't actually books. 1335 01:59:30,840 --> 01:59:43,119 They are like additional chapters, like chapters to Daniel, So I don't even 1336 01:59:43,159 --> 01:59:46,439 know what the actual member of books is. Let's see, it's like it's 1337 01:59:46,479 --> 01:59:51,960 between seventy five and seventy nine because of the differing whether the extra chapters are 1338 01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:55,960 considered books or not. Thank you. It is that in different for us 1339 01:59:56,079 --> 02:00:00,920 Orthodoxy. Well, it's more so different collections of books, not forms of 1340 02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:10,800 Orthodoxy. So like the ancient Slavonic books or Bible collected more books than some 1341 02:00:10,840 --> 02:00:16,119 of the others did. Okay, someone told me that there's only salvation inside 1342 02:00:16,119 --> 02:00:25,159 of the Orthodoxy church. Well, if God has extra normative ways to unite 1343 02:00:25,159 --> 02:00:29,359 people to the church. It's still salvation only in Christ and in the Church. 1344 02:00:29,479 --> 02:00:33,119 So ultimately that is correct. So what is the church by definition? 1345 02:00:34,239 --> 02:00:39,039 By definition, it is the body of Christ. It is the canonical Orthodox 1346 02:00:39,720 --> 02:00:46,079 Church spread out throughout the world based on the apostolic succession of the church that 1347 02:00:46,159 --> 02:00:53,319 Christ set up in Matthew sixteen eighteen and x two. Okay, you know 1348 02:00:53,359 --> 02:00:57,920 when Paul wrote the Seven Letters to the Churches. Yeah, and they all 1349 02:00:58,039 --> 02:01:02,920 kind of get different report cards. Are you talking about John writing to the 1350 02:01:02,960 --> 02:01:12,439 seven churches in the Asian mina? Right, But usually when this analogy is 1351 02:01:12,520 --> 02:01:15,800 used, it's used for the Letters to the Seven Churches, and in Revelation 1352 02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:17,560 wanted to but anyway, go ahead, what about it? So he writes 1353 02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:21,960 to seven epistles and to the different churches, getting wrong, they say some 1354 02:01:23,000 --> 02:01:25,960 good things, to say some bad things, right, And then I think 1355 02:01:25,960 --> 02:01:29,000 you can kind of tie this to the seven Spirits of the Church as well. 1356 02:01:29,039 --> 02:01:33,279 In Revelation, Well, there's the seventh spirits of God. I don't 1357 02:01:33,279 --> 02:01:38,840 know about the seventh spirits of Church. Okay, Okay, that's that's from 1358 02:01:39,520 --> 02:01:43,000 Isaiah. So anyway, but yeah, I appreciate that. I'm gonna move 1359 02:01:43,039 --> 02:01:45,760 on. I appreciate these questions, but it's not like, uh, we're 1360 02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:53,399 not doing ethic ues today, Hank, what's up? Hank wanted to come 1361 02:01:53,439 --> 02:01:57,199 discuss, So go ahead, Hank. Are you the guy asking the question 1362 02:01:57,279 --> 02:02:03,359 about syllipsism? You get an I'm mute? There you go? Can you 1363 02:02:03,359 --> 02:02:09,079 hear me? Excellent? But yeah, you read my question, but I'll 1364 02:02:09,119 --> 02:02:13,640 just ask it again for to let snow that I'm here reading it. Yeah, 1365 02:02:13,680 --> 02:02:16,800 today, Jimbop said new Atres. And so I always say solism is 1366 02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:23,119 true for the root mind only the mind of God, and for ust rest 1367 02:02:23,119 --> 02:02:28,399 it's idealism. Am I wrong? What do you mean the root mind of 1368 02:02:28,399 --> 02:02:30,159 God? I don't even know what that means. Yes, So the route 1369 02:02:30,159 --> 02:02:33,760 it's pretty much like a compure term. The root account is account that controls 1370 02:02:33,760 --> 02:02:41,079 everything on the computer and relation to us, God is the root of the 1371 02:02:41,199 --> 02:02:44,720 universe. Okay, how do you know this? Sounds like like where are 1372 02:02:44,720 --> 02:02:53,920 you getting this from? So if we assume God is omniponed omniscient, it 1373 02:02:54,039 --> 02:02:57,560 just it just falls. If you seem God's omniscient omni But how do you 1374 02:02:57,600 --> 02:02:59,319 know that's who God is? And how he is. We know that as 1375 02:02:59,399 --> 02:03:02,199 Christians because sinivine revelation. But what's your source for this? I am a 1376 02:03:02,840 --> 02:03:08,560 universitis, that's a Christians right for religion. So you're not okay, So 1377 02:03:08,560 --> 02:03:13,000 so you're not part of our revelation because revelation says that he's triadic and not 1378 02:03:13,159 --> 02:03:17,920 just a Unitarian being. Okay, Well, well I can't make sense of 1379 02:03:18,000 --> 02:03:24,399 triaticism, so so God has to. So God has to submit to what 1380 02:03:24,439 --> 02:03:28,119 you think makes sense or what he doesn't have to. But it doesn't mean 1381 02:03:28,199 --> 02:03:30,960 that, you know, I do does the Does the Old Testament teach that 1382 02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:36,199 he's a triad No? Okay, So what about all the three hours that 1383 02:03:36,239 --> 02:03:40,119 I just did the other night of going through all the texts in the Old 1384 02:03:40,119 --> 02:03:46,520 Testament to teacher triad What are all those texts? I had to go back 1385 02:03:46,520 --> 02:03:49,279 and watch it for my owners day. It does not pitch a triad, 1386 02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:55,359 which is why that Jewish people don't say that that's a fallacy. So what 1387 02:03:56,000 --> 02:03:59,760 so the so so the fact that Jews don't accept it means that it's not 1388 02:03:59,800 --> 02:04:08,039 true. Our Jews unitary, our Jews dig dig Did you just teach unitarian 1389 02:04:08,119 --> 02:04:13,640 universalists syllipsism. Okay, so then so it's so it has nothing to do 1390 02:04:13,920 --> 02:04:19,039 so it's a relevant So that's a fallacy, okay, faacious. No, 1391 02:04:19,159 --> 02:04:25,279 it just means that your arguments fallacious. Doesn't mean I'm fallacious. No, 1392 02:04:25,319 --> 02:04:28,279 they're not. I mean I just appealed to the Old Testament. The often 1393 02:04:28,479 --> 02:04:30,960 is what are those I mean it says the glory of God appeared as the 1394 02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:38,840 Angel. Yahweh, Who's that is it? Michael? No, you can't 1395 02:04:38,840 --> 02:04:45,680 worship Michael. Michael's not uncreated worshiped U created things. So I mean you 1396 02:04:46,119 --> 02:04:51,600 don't believe that you can't. I'm sorry, man, this is like this 1397 02:04:51,760 --> 02:04:56,399 is it's not even I can't even understand what you're saying. Mark, what's 1398 02:04:56,439 --> 02:05:12,039 up? Go watch the theophany is actually that we just did. Unmute Mark, 1399 02:05:13,079 --> 02:05:20,479 he's a Unitarian universalist, he's not Jewish. I'm mute, man, 1400 02:05:20,720 --> 02:05:30,960 Go ahead, did you turn your mic on? It's like people will never 1401 02:05:30,079 --> 02:05:33,199 use the internet suddenly, Like when they come to my chat, nobody knows 1402 02:05:33,239 --> 02:05:35,680 what Twitter is. They don't know what a space is, they don't know 1403 02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:40,439 how to it's like what's a live stream? Right? Remember boomers were saying 1404 02:05:40,439 --> 02:05:43,319 that like last year. What's a live stream? Why do you have music 1405 02:05:43,319 --> 02:05:45,800 at the beginning? What is this? You gotta turn your mic on? 1406 02:05:45,880 --> 02:05:51,359 Man, pop out, pop back in with your mic permissions on Nick? 1407 02:05:51,399 --> 02:06:03,920 What's up? Dude? Hey? Can you hear me? Yes, ma'am? 1408 02:06:03,960 --> 02:06:10,840 Well, yes, sir, excuse me my mania. Listen. I 1409 02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:15,079 hope my voice is clear. I'm talking from the form I wanted to ask 1410 02:06:15,119 --> 02:06:20,079 you about. It's kind of related to the previous guy, but mostly about 1411 02:06:20,119 --> 02:06:26,039 Theophanies. And recently I heard you talking about how, you know, Catholics, 1412 02:06:26,239 --> 02:06:30,079 I think it's okay to pray in mosques because they think like they're praying 1413 02:06:30,159 --> 02:06:38,840 to the same God in a way. So previously you mentioned that effectively like 1414 02:06:39,359 --> 02:06:45,399 Old Testament period of believers in some sense believed in Trinity and that in Old 1415 02:06:45,399 --> 02:06:48,840 Testament. Yes, we just did a three hour lecture through all the references 1416 02:06:48,880 --> 02:06:57,079 in the Torah alone correctly. And I'm just curious, like I fully understand 1417 02:06:57,159 --> 02:07:01,520 that you know what you explained about Theophanies, like I get it. I'm 1418 02:07:01,600 --> 02:07:09,239 just wondering, are you also saying that they were like fully aware of it 1419 02:07:09,720 --> 02:07:15,199 or like, let's say, like some rabbio that period was he actually aware 1420 02:07:15,239 --> 02:07:18,520 of the mystery of trinity or was it implicit but they didn't fully understand it. 1421 02:07:19,239 --> 02:07:23,520 So if you read John five through nine, Jesus answers this question. 1422 02:07:23,880 --> 02:07:28,159 They don't have to know the terms homo usius, hypostasis. Those are all 1423 02:07:28,199 --> 02:07:33,000 Greek terms that are much later that described the same reality that the terms Yahweh, 1424 02:07:33,279 --> 02:07:36,680 Angel of the Lord, Angel of his Presence, Messenger of the Covenant, 1425 02:07:38,239 --> 02:07:41,479 Face of God, Glory of God. All of those are the terms 1426 02:07:41,479 --> 02:07:46,520 the Old Testament uses for the Son, and then the Spirit is often identified 1427 02:07:46,560 --> 02:07:51,880 just as the Spirit. So all they need to know is that the Shamah, 1428 02:07:53,119 --> 02:07:56,000 the Lord, our God, the Lord is one, and that he 1429 02:07:56,079 --> 02:08:01,319 has three persons Yahweh, his Angel, son, and his Spirit. And 1430 02:08:01,359 --> 02:08:07,000 that's revealed all throughout the Old Testament. So the fact that modern rabbinical Judaism 1431 02:08:07,039 --> 02:08:11,800 is unitarian and struggles to explain all these passages has nothing to do with or 1432 02:08:11,640 --> 02:08:22,000 bears no relevance to what ancient Hebrew thought was. Okay, yeah, I 1433 02:08:22,520 --> 02:08:28,600 give it that. I'm just curious. And by the way, the condemnation 1434 02:08:28,680 --> 02:08:33,039 of praying with other religious groups, even really in mortalimanimos, is just talking 1435 02:08:33,039 --> 02:08:37,199 about other So called Christian groups like that was as late as nineteen twenty eight 1436 02:08:37,239 --> 02:08:43,880 the papacy condemned those actions as apostasy. And so we've gone so far down 1437 02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:46,439 the road. And by the way, the Romancats don't even care. They 1438 02:08:46,439 --> 02:08:48,239 don't read mortality animals and when they read it, they just handwave it. 1439 02:08:48,279 --> 02:08:50,880 I don't care what in cyclicals say. Well, Vatican one doesn't say you 1440 02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:56,199 get to handwave in cyclicals, because this clearly shows the contradiction between praying with 1441 02:08:56,920 --> 02:09:05,720 Christians as apostasy and indifferentism. And we're so far down the rabbit hole of 1442 02:09:05,760 --> 02:09:11,880 this nonsense that now it's praying with other religions, you see. Yeah, 1443 02:09:11,880 --> 02:09:16,520 it's like it's a complete relativism, where just the concept of God, I 1444 02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:20,560 guess, like the general, the most like general concept of God is enough 1445 02:09:20,760 --> 02:09:24,680 or something. Well, but it's not even I mean, the medieval Roman 1446 02:09:24,720 --> 02:09:30,159 Catholic councils and popes Callixtus the third and others. They called it the abominable 1447 02:09:30,199 --> 02:09:35,920 sect of Mohamet. They called it demonic, they called crusades against them. 1448 02:09:35,039 --> 02:09:41,199 It's unthinkable that imagine what they would think about praying together towards Mecca in the 1449 02:09:41,199 --> 02:09:50,039 mosque. It's crazy, I assume that. I mean, yeah, a 1450 02:09:50,079 --> 02:09:54,000 week ago Francis was chanting with Buddhists praying with him in a Buddhist temple, 1451 02:09:54,119 --> 02:10:01,119 that that probably would have caused violence. In medieval if someone so you're doing 1452 02:10:01,239 --> 02:10:03,600 that, well, they would have automatically said that's this pope is anti crisis 1453 02:10:03,600 --> 02:10:09,840 apostates. Even the popes would have said that. I'm also just curious about 1454 02:10:09,840 --> 02:10:13,439 the like one more question about the tranty huh, So would you just explain 1455 02:10:13,600 --> 02:10:18,520 is is it makes sense to me, like the general sense of it. 1456 02:10:18,600 --> 02:10:24,039 Is there any truth to like the idea that after incarnation the understanding of the 1457 02:10:24,039 --> 02:10:28,119 Trinity at least became deeper, or would you say that the Trnity specifically, 1458 02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:33,640 like essentially just you know, it was fully understand prior and after incarnation. 1459 02:10:33,760 --> 02:10:37,199 Now, if you read the Theophanes, all the Theophanes are triadic, and 1460 02:10:37,279 --> 02:10:43,960 so it's implicit in the Old Testament. But Jesus makes it very clear that 1461 02:10:43,119 --> 02:10:46,840 Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it was lat John five through nine 1462 02:10:48,680 --> 02:10:52,359 enrages the Pharisees because Jesus is saying that I'm the one that ate with Moses 1463 02:10:52,359 --> 02:10:56,520 on the mountain. I'm the one that ate with Abraham in the meal in 1464 02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:00,600 Genesis eighteen. Yeah, yeah, so are we so were or we're gonna 1465 02:11:00,600 --> 02:11:03,720 think that they ate with him but they didn't know him. That's retarded, 1466 02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:05,319 And that's actually what Trent says, by the way, So this is that's 1467 02:11:05,319 --> 02:11:07,680 how stupid this position is. And it's, by the way, not the 1468 02:11:07,800 --> 02:11:13,560 argument or the approach of the church fathers. They don't argue Unitarian you know, 1469 02:11:13,680 --> 02:11:16,159 well, we all believe in wan God, the Old Testaments of unity. 1470 02:11:16,239 --> 02:11:20,119 Now when j Justin Marter argues against Tripho, he goes to that Theophanies 1471 02:11:20,319 --> 02:11:26,560 to prove that you were always worshiping the logos. Now, what's the principle 1472 02:11:26,600 --> 02:11:31,439 is the same in terms of deeper revelation even in the Old Testament. So 1473 02:11:31,560 --> 02:11:35,159 for example, Isaiah, he knew way more than what's revealed in Genesis to 1474 02:11:35,199 --> 02:11:41,199 Abraham. But it's still the son that's revealed to Abraham. It's just that 1475 02:11:41,439 --> 02:11:45,880 there's more content, more revelation by the time of Isaiah, because Isaiah is 1476 02:11:45,920 --> 02:11:52,000 able to basically write the Fifth Gospel. All right, thanks, And that 1477 02:11:52,119 --> 02:11:54,720 is, by the way, what the Orthodox church. He just read say 1478 02:11:54,840 --> 02:11:58,600 Maximus's quote. This is what it was enraging all the Roman Catholics, and 1479 02:11:58,600 --> 02:12:01,359 they're just denying Maximus and saying, well, we don't we don't accept his 1480 02:12:01,479 --> 02:12:05,399 view. Yeah, because Maximus says Abraham works with the Trinity. So this 1481 02:12:05,479 --> 02:12:09,079 is this is the link that they go to, denying the very thing that 1482 02:12:09,119 --> 02:12:13,279 would prove their religion. That's how stupid these people are. They would rather 1483 02:12:13,359 --> 02:12:18,199 deny the things that prove their religion to maintain their stupid antichrist papacy position, 1484 02:12:20,560 --> 02:12:26,960 to worship this idiot in Rome who runs a giant money luner in operation crime 1485 02:12:26,000 --> 02:12:37,880 syndicate, what's up? Sober or silent? Right since or whatever I could 1486 02:12:37,960 --> 02:12:41,359 see. Yeah, I'm a little new of this space. I haven't heard 1487 02:12:41,359 --> 02:12:43,920 any of your lectures before. I kind of just wanted to bring up Romans 1488 02:12:45,000 --> 02:12:48,159 thirteen. I've kind of been struggling with my faith a little bit lately, 1489 02:12:50,159 --> 02:12:54,119 and it's kind of just where I keep going back to about authority and can 1490 02:12:54,159 --> 02:12:58,039 we apply this to profits and pharisees. And then when we're speaking, obviously 1491 02:12:58,039 --> 02:13:01,600 you said you went over the Trinidad. Miss. Are we talking about the 1492 02:13:01,640 --> 02:13:07,880 Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit or are Trinidad. What do 1493 02:13:07,880 --> 02:13:11,880 you mean? You said, yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead, 1494 02:13:13,079 --> 02:13:16,319 and you guys were saying some trend work. Yeah, that's called it's called 1495 02:13:16,359 --> 02:13:20,840 Trinidad. James, have you heard of that? Gold all over my chain? 1496 02:13:20,279 --> 02:13:24,039 Gold all over my watch? Don't believe me? What's just watch? 1497 02:13:24,119 --> 02:13:31,560 You never heard of Trinidad? Mm hmmm uh secret dev in the chat? 1498 02:13:31,600 --> 02:13:35,880 I want you to hop on and debate since you were talking smack secret. 1499 02:13:35,920 --> 02:13:39,119 Oh he's got secret nosis. Okay, so I got Ruins thirteen pulled up. 1500 02:13:39,159 --> 02:13:41,560 So this is talking about the authority that the civil state has. What's 1501 02:13:41,600 --> 02:13:48,199 the problem. I'm just curious, how you know, I heard you guys 1502 02:13:48,239 --> 02:13:52,920 kind of mentioned some some hierarchies and like ropets and then state maybe right, 1503 02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:56,279 I'm just curious, you know, what kind of stock, what kind of 1504 02:13:56,359 --> 02:14:00,680 faith to put in the state. Obviously, you know ken we have that 1505 02:14:00,720 --> 02:14:05,720 God has a pointed these people here, or you know, should we shouldn't 1506 02:14:05,920 --> 02:14:09,520 follow Christ? Or maybe walk with Christ and flip tables and and fight the 1507 02:14:09,600 --> 02:14:15,279 taxman. So again, like all of this really has nothing to do with 1508 02:14:15,399 --> 02:14:18,720 historic Christianity. So it sounds like you have them maybe a Protestant, evangelical 1509 02:14:18,760 --> 02:14:22,720 background, which which sort of assumes that like authority is something that is anti 1510 02:14:22,840 --> 02:14:26,279 God. I mean no, the Bible is full of monarchy, full of 1511 02:14:26,279 --> 02:14:35,960 notions of authority. No what go ahead, No, not prison or evangelical 1512 02:14:37,000 --> 02:14:43,159 background. Okay. So Christianity is a historic religion with a historic like ethos 1513 02:14:43,159 --> 02:14:46,079 and a body of doctrines that's passed down. So there's no hippie Jesus. 1514 02:14:46,119 --> 02:14:50,039 There's no such thing as anarchy Jesus. Jesus is the Jesus who's king of 1515 02:14:50,119 --> 02:14:54,239 kings. Okay, yeah, and we've looked at its words, right, 1516 02:14:54,159 --> 02:15:00,199 what do you mean we were? We've looked at Jesus's words throughout you know 1517 02:15:00,279 --> 02:15:05,560 what Jesus actually spoke, not just what his apostles and whatnot broke. Well, 1518 02:15:05,600 --> 02:15:09,720 I don't think there's any discontinuity between those. So the apostles teach the 1519 02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:13,439 very thing that he led them to teach via giving the Holy Spirit to them, 1520 02:15:13,479 --> 02:15:16,079 So they don't teach anything that I don't think either. So you what 1521 02:15:18,359 --> 02:15:22,079 I said, I don't think either. Okay. But my point, I 1522 02:15:22,079 --> 02:15:26,159 guess is just that there is no end cap Jesus like that doesn't exist, 1523 02:15:26,479 --> 02:15:31,359 that's made up. There's no what cap Jesus? All right, uh look 1524 02:15:31,640 --> 02:15:37,199 just uh go check out something like the uh you know, the the Icon 1525 02:15:37,319 --> 02:15:41,560 documentary. I would say start there and then come back and we can get 1526 02:15:41,600 --> 02:15:48,960 on with some of the issues. Noah, what's up, Secret dev