WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.839 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:18.719 Episode number three forty one. Cinema is a matter of what's in the 4 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:23.359 frame and what's out. Now, more than ever, we need to talk 5 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.120 to each other, to listen to each other and understand how we see the 6 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:33.079 world, and cinema is the best medium for doing this. Martin Scorsese broadcasting 7 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:36.920 from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on 8 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:42.039 that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and 9 00:00:42.119 --> 00:00:46.799 business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's 10 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:52.039 your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof 11 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:56.479 Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari. Now, today's 12 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:02.799 show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now, unlike other script coverage services, 13 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:07.079 Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the 14 00:01:07.120 --> 00:01:11.640 goals of the project you are, So we actually break it down by three 15 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.799 categories. Micro budget, indie, film market and studio film. There's no 16 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:19.599 reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading temp pole movies when 17 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:22.719 your movie is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we 18 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.560 wanted to focus on that. At Bulletproof script coverage, our readers have worked 19 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:30.959 with Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott 20 00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:34.359 Free, Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if 21 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:41.439 you need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over 22 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:49.480 to covermiscreenplay dot Com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Dave Bullets. This 23 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.319 week's guest is one of the most sought after coaches in comedy. His first 24 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.359 book, The Hitting Tools of Comedy, was one of the one of my 25 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.879 favorite books that came out in the past couple of years, and it's been 26 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.000 an international bestseller. At His new book, which we're going to talk all 27 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:07.240 about, The Comic Hero's Journey, is out now everywhere. So, without 28 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:12.319 further ado, was Steve Kaplan. So, Steve, you've been on twice 29 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.280 before and this is your third time on the podcast. How does it feel. 30 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:21.719 It feels good. I'm still waiting for my third time jacket, you 31 00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:25.599 know, like they do on SNL. But I'll just wait. I'm sure 32 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:30.159 that's in the mail. It is, and if it gets lost, well, 33 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:31.719 you know what, there's been a lot of cutbacks at the post office, 34 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:38.439 Steve, so oh boy, okay, well I'll continue nevertheless, By 35 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:39.599 the way, here's a funny story for you, Steve, really quickly. 36 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:46.120 I used to work at the post office. So that explains it. They 37 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:51.520 were so desperate they hired me. Can you believe that? So did you 38 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.199 experience what it meant to go postal? Well, see, I have an 39 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:58.599 unfair advantage, and that part of it because I've always been like, you 40 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.439 know, that unhinged guy. So I kind of walked in with a chiple 41 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:07.360 by shoulder. So okay, and what what were you? What were your 42 00:03:07.400 --> 00:03:09.680 duties at the post office? Were you walking around or were you behind the 43 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:15.199 desk or uh? Neither. I actually was the guy who was in like 44 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:17.599 the in the like the warehouse, and we would like sort mail. We'd 45 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:22.599 move like tons of mail from here to there. We would like stock up, 46 00:03:22.599 --> 00:03:24.879 we would help like the actual postal workers. We actually like, you 47 00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:28.280 know, here's all the mail for your route today, and here's what you 48 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:31.719 gotta do. Yeah, it was. It was not a very glamorous job. 49 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:36.000 So if you think, tell me, tell me one thing that you 50 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:45.919 hoped your supervisors never found out that I probably took the only thing I could 51 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.120 do say is I took longer breaks than I should have. I didn't like 52 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:53.280 steal any mail or hide in wins mail, nothing like that. I never 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.000 I would never do anything like that, So so sorry, I don't have 54 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.719 any like crazy stories like I didn't. I didn't help a bag of mail 55 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:02.719 down like a sewer or something. But uh, did you ever did you 56 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:06.639 ever know anybody who did oh oh stuff would go like I mean, Steve, 57 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:11.639 Like they used to like throw stuff across the the entire floor, so 58 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:14.439 like you know, they would take a box that says fragile and they would 59 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:17.240 just boot it all the way across the whole ruin. Oh I knew it. 60 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:23.600 Oh yeah, that happens on the regular. Okay, Well, this 61 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:28.319 is the basis of a new Sun Dance comedy. I can I can see 62 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.519 it now going stolen. I thought you were going to say, like a 63 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.480 new lawsuit against the Post Office. I got this guy. Oh No, 64 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:41.199 everything is story. Everything is a something to generate story. That's that. 65 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:44.600 That's very true. And you know, I've seen a lot of the interviews 66 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:46.319 you've done, Steve, and not just the ones that you've done here. 67 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:50.240 You know you've been on twice before, but you know you've been on Film 68 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:55.199 Courage. Uh. You know, you've done a ton of interviews, and 69 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:59.920 you know you're you're you're very good at you know, sort of putting comedy 70 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.439 in perspective, which and what I mean by that is putting putting you. 71 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:04.839 It has to be a story. There has to be a reason it's funny, 72 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.199 because if it's just a series of events, it really doesn't mean a 73 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.079 lot. Right, Well, it's it's not that it doesn't mean I've been 74 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.519 thinking about that a lot in the new book that I wrote, Comic Hero's 75 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:21.240 Journey. I was thinking today that I didn't give enough props to totally silly 76 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:28.079 comedies that that have nothing on their mind other than to be totally silly. 77 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.439 And I was thinking about the fact that one of the reasons that I don't 78 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:40.120 have a section on that is because it's so hard to do because you're not 79 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:45.360 you have nothing to hang hang the narrative on, don't you You kind of 80 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:49.439 have characters, but they're not fully dimensionalized characters. I'm thinking of things like 81 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:56.959 like The Jerk that I just recently rescreened. You you don't have a story 82 00:05:57.000 --> 00:06:00.360 that you really care about because you know that the character are just there for 83 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:06.480 laughs. And when it works, it's it's it's amazing, but it's it's 84 00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:11.839 very hard to work. I can think of a lot more instances where it 85 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:17.560 doesn't work, like Scary Movie four or or you know, Naked Gun the 86 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:25.480 seventh sequel, because while it's possible to do, it's it's a very hard 87 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:30.439 trick to pull off because what it means is that you are entertaining the audience 88 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:36.920 in one particular way for ninety five minutes or one hundred or one hundred and 89 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:45.560 five minutes, and and that's extremely difficult because you don't have a love story 90 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:48.879 to fall back on. You don't have you don't have any real tension to 91 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:54.519 fall back on. There's no suspense, there's no drama, there's no there's 92 00:06:54.600 --> 00:07:00.120 nothing thematic that hooks in. And what I found. What I find is 93 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.560 that when I go back and watch these movies like The Jerk, they don't 94 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:08.199 hold up that well. I mean, for me at least that, you, 95 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:11.959 you know, having being familiar with the comedy of it, the jokes 96 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:17.120 of it, I'm not as as I'm not taking for a ride anymore, 97 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:23.240 and I kind of see the shallowness of it. Although at the time I 98 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:27.920 loved it, I was a big fan. One movie that's like that that 99 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.399 still works for me is Airplane, And I think the reason for that is 100 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:35.519 because, even though it is as silly as the day is long, you 101 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:42.079 care about that Robert Hayes character. You care about him somehow. They make 102 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:49.240 you, you know, they make you concerned, They have a not It's 103 00:07:49.399 --> 00:07:53.319 kind of the reverse of a save the cat in drama, you have a 104 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:58.519 saved the cat moment. In comedy, you often have the cat scratches your 105 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.879 hero's face and then you know, then peece on his leg and then walks 106 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.720 away. You you're made to feel sympathetic, You're made to feel bad for 107 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:11.279 the for the character, and and that that makes you care. And if 108 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.319 you care about the character, then no matter how silly the circumstances are, 109 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.560 you're you kind of fall into the narrative. You're hooked in the narrative. 110 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:24.279 So so that's what I've been thinking about that's a that's a long answer to 111 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:28.720 a question you didn't even ask. And those are the best ones, Steve, 112 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:33.240 trust me, because you know, people tewn it into you always hear 113 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.600 the guests, like I always say, and it's always good to you know 114 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:37.600 when the guests you know, uh, you know, talks more than I 115 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.039 do. And uh, I look good too, because I didn't have to 116 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:43.200 ask a question. You already gave me an answer. So thank you, 117 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.120 Thank you for that, Steve. Well there you go. So, but 118 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:48.600 you know what, I I watched The Jerk again recently. You know, 119 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:52.399 I still love the movie. I absolutely think it's hilarious. But I and 120 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:56.399 I see what you mean. Uh, but you know, and when I 121 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:58.600 watch movies like The Jerk and then you kind of compare it to today, 122 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:05.159 you know, I still think The Jerk has more character development because some movies 123 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.519 today maybe you know, maybe there's not so much character development, or maybe 124 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:11.279 there are too many you know, there are too many jokes that really don't 125 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:13.039 kind of tie in with it. So, you know, and then that 126 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.159 kind of ties with one of the questions I want to ask you, is, 127 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:18.399 you know, what, what are some of the recent movies that you've 128 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:22.720 seen where that have that have not only been funny, but you also thought 129 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.159 they were good because they actually told a story, you know, that actually 130 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:31.279 focused on a character. Oh well, I would say, you know, 131 00:09:31.399 --> 00:09:37.000 I would say, Lady Bird, if you're gonna go on the on the 132 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.600 spectrum of of amusing too hilarious, Lady Bird might not be on the hilarious 133 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:46.080 side of that spectrum. But it's moving, it's funny, it's true, 134 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:56.480 it's authentic. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and 135 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:03.720 now back to the show. Uh, I like I liked the Grand Budapest 136 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:09.639 Hotel. Again, it's it's just this perfect little fairy tale that has very 137 00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:18.000 exaggerated characters. But ultimately it's it's about Uh, it's about honor and integrity 138 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.879 in a strange way because it's about this matre d who you know, who 139 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:28.720 screws all the all the elder guests the hotel. But in a strange way, 140 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:33.080 it's it's about holding on to something that's valuable from the past and and 141 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:39.320 mourning the things that are lost. Uh. In terms of movies that I 142 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.240 thought I thought were just funny, uh, I thought Spy was very successful. 143 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:50.240 In terms of parodying that James Bond formula and yet finding its own comedy 144 00:10:50.840 --> 00:10:58.240 in in what Melissa McCarthy does. So, uh So, I think let 145 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.480 me see, was there something? Uh? You know, most of the 146 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.240 comedy that I see today aren't aren't movie. You know, successful comedies aren't 147 00:11:05.320 --> 00:11:11.519 movies as much as as what you see on television and and especially on this 148 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:20.120 on the streaming channels. Brockmeyer, uh is uh is a binge worthy favorite 149 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:26.159 of mine. Uh It's because I love baseball and I love hankas area and 150 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:33.720 he just takes this dissolute character to its ultimate illogical, logical conclusion, and 151 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:39.399 it makes sense. It's him, Hank's area. Amanda Pete great stuff, 152 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:48.360 very funny, and the marvelous missus Mazel? Did I pronounce that right? 153 00:11:48.679 --> 00:11:52.799 I can never figure that out. I'm just starting to watch season two. 154 00:11:54.519 --> 00:12:00.600 Uh So, that that's very good. I I think it's hard to it's 155 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:11.559 hard to do feature comedy because the marketplace kind of demands them to dumb down 156 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:16.960 their material. So you have something like have you seen Tag? Right? 157 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.720 I've seen Tag? So I don't know what you thought of Tag, but 158 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:28.960 I thought that that it's kind of an odd quirky story that I couldn't see 159 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.960 the reason why they made it into a movie, because even though there were 160 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.840 some funny things that happened, it kind of eluded me. Maybe you had 161 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:48.440 a different experience. But I find that a lot of what gets into the 162 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:54.600 theaters is something that they're condescending to the audience. They're thinking, well, 163 00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:58.200 this is funny, they'll like it, as opposed to what's the best story 164 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.159 we can tell, and it's the most comic way we can tell it. 165 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.879 Yeah, I saw tag and I again, I kind of felt that way 166 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:11.159 too. It's kind of like, you know, how did this, you 167 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.279 know, get made into a movie. It's kind of like one of those 168 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.600 things where you're like they made you kind of see the poster and you're like, 169 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:18.879 well, maybe it could be good, you know, and then and 170 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.679 then it's kind of like, you know, they made this into a movie. 171 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.159 I'm sure there was a market for it. I don't know how well 172 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:30.720 it did, I really, I don't have the numbers, but I don't 173 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:33.919 know what. I don't think there's gonna be a sequel, No, I 174 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.519 don't think so. You know, in a way, sometimes the best comedies 175 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:46.480 nowadays are the animated comedies because they're they they're creating, especially the Pixar comedies, 176 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.000 they're creating material that has to be four quadrant, that has to appeal 177 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.399 towards everybody. So it can't just be silly jokes that the kids like. 178 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.879 There has to be something for the parents. They want something for the parents. 179 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:05.320 And those Pixar movies are all driven thematically as opposed to driven by plot 180 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:13.759 and gag. So Incredibles to Coco, is that was that the one with 181 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.480 the Day of the Dead. I think that's I think I'm getting that right. 182 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.399 Yeah, I think that was Coco. Yeah, I mean those are 183 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:28.679 those are wonderful, inventive, imaginative and and and moving, moving pieces of 184 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:37.159 comic film. And I guess, I guess there's the sense because it's not 185 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:41.440 R rated, that they can just tell a story and they're not beholden to 186 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:48.879 do something outrageous or gross every ten minutes to keep this imaginary audience of thirteen 187 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.200 year old boys happy. So, you know, you mentioned Brockmeyer. I've 188 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.360 never seen an episode, but I have a friend who swears by it because 189 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.639 he just like Hacker's area as well. But you know, speaking of baseball 190 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.679 shows, have you ever seen east bound and down. I do like Eastbounding 191 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:11.759 Down. And the thing is is that I like Eastbounding Down, I like 192 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:16.240 Danny McBride, And if you put the two of them together, the thing 193 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:24.240 that I like more about Brockmeier is that it it expands the the the envelope 194 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.080 of what's, what could be, what could actually have have happened, and 195 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:33.000 it doesn't break the envelope, whereas with Eastbounding Down you often have to just 196 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.440 leave your your good sense off to one side and just to just enjoy Danny 197 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:45.399 McBride, is this outrageous? Uh? Not too bright? Ex baseball player? 198 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.759 So those are actually two similar projects, which I think one is is 199 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:54.080 done better, but both both have both have amusing things. I mean, 200 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.240 you know for me, you you start with the hardest question for me, 201 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:02.840 Dave, which is what have you seen that you like? Which makes me 202 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:07.519 feel obligated to well, what's what did I like? That's good? But 203 00:16:08.279 --> 00:16:14.600 the taste is subjective. That's one of the things that I I I teach 204 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:18.399 strongly in my workshops and my books, is that is that funny is subjective. 205 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.559 I mean, what I find funny you might not find funny. It 206 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.159 doesn't make me right and you wrong, or vice versa. So you so, 207 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.480 if you're not going to try to create funny what's going to make me 208 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.960 laugh as opposed to what's going to make you laugh, then you then you 209 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:38.480 want to try to create comedy, which is telling the truth about people, 210 00:16:40.200 --> 00:16:45.440 what's true about people, and telling the truth about that using you know, 211 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.720 a variety of methods that that make it, that bring it out of the 212 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:55.440 mundane and the ordinary, and and elevate it to to common kind of comic 213 00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.799 art and comic truth. So uh so, if you ask me, what 214 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:07.880 what have I seen that I really like? I'm really drawn to movies that 215 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:15.920 I've seen years ago that still stay with me, like About a Boy or 216 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:19.559 five Hundred Days of Summer. Movies that are funny, but they have something 217 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:26.480 on their mind and they move me. They move me in three ways. 218 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.960 They move me kinetically I laugh, they move me emotionally I feel, and 219 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.799 they move me intellectually I think. And to me, those are the best 220 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:41.759 movies. And to me, I still I still go to my favorite, 221 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:47.440 which is Groundhog Day. And I guess my second favorite might be forty year 222 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:53.039 Old Virgin, which I just spent a day screening for a class in Milan, 223 00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:59.880 trying to teach them how it works in terms of the comic hero's journey. 224 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.039 So when you screen that, by the way, those are two very 225 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:08.400 good choices. By the way, so because you know Groundhog's Day, you 226 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:14.960 know, we could we could dissect that right now. But I mean, 227 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.759 it's it's such a great movie because you know, repeating the same day over 228 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.440 and over and eventually you're right. I think you touched upon this in an 229 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.400 interview before, maybe you and I talked about this, But where he kind 230 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:27.279 of assumes that he's God and he kind of assumes these things, that's how 231 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.200 people would have really, you know, that's how if that happened to you 232 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:34.200 or me, you would assume that same thing, right, I mean, 233 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:41.799 And that's that's really the brilliance of the Herald Ramus revision of the originally of 234 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:48.039 the original Danny Rubin's script is that in at least in the final shooting version, 235 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:56.839 they he kind of holds very closely to Okay, this impossible thing happened, 236 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.839 that he's waking up and it's the same day over and over again. 237 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:07.599 But having having admitted that, having just got along and said, okay, 238 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.799 this impossible thing happened, What would happen then if this were true, what 239 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:15.279 would really happen out of that? And I think one of the things that 240 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:22.960 makes Groundhog Day work so well is that is that even though incredible, weird, 241 00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:27.640 funny things happen, it stays within the reality of the impossible situation that 242 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:33.079 they created. He wakes up the same day, he remembers everything. Nobody 243 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.759 remembers anything. So he can go to a girl and try to pick her 244 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.359 up. And if he makes if he says something wrong and turns her off, 245 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.640 he can come back the next day and make it better. So she'll 246 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:51.039 say, what should we toast too? And he'll know he's at a bar, 247 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.920 and he'll say, let's toast to the groundhog and she kind of gets 248 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:57.359 turned off by that. So he comes back the very next day. We'll 249 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:04.240 be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the 250 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.839 show. And she says, what should we toast? Two? And he 251 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:14.319 turns all solemn, and he says, I'd like to say a word for 252 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.000 you know, a prayer for world peace. And and of course, because 253 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.279 he figures, having gone through trial and error, he knows that that will 254 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:27.720 that will endear himself to her. So I, you know, I like 255 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:36.279 the fact that it takes an impossible or improbable situation, which in in in 256 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:41.599 my book I call the WTF moment though, what the fuck moment, And 257 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:48.759 and after that, everything that happens after that evolves organically and an honestly out 258 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:56.240 of character guided by theme. Yeah, it's uh, it's kind of like 259 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.400 every guy's dream, right, Yeah, the unlimited chances to actually pick up 260 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:03.680 a girl. Right. So but uh, but no, it's it's it's 261 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:06.799 like those days, you know, And at the heart of Groundhog's day was 262 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:08.759 you know, it's basically, you know, he had to find out what 263 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.640 was missing in his life and and basically, you know, find out all 264 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.559 the mistakes that he was making. And you know, even when he thought 265 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.960 he had the perfect day, he would he wherever he woke up again and 266 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:19.799 he goes, what the hell I thought? I did? You know, 267 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:23.440 I got, I did all this right, and he he still didn't wake 268 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.200 up. And then finally, as it had progressed, it was he had 269 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.160 to, uh, I forget the uh the female character's name in there that 270 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.480 he ended up with at the end, Yeah, right, right right, 271 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.400 and read it played by Andy McDowell. Right, Well, I remember his 272 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.519 name was Phil because I remember that guy was like, hey Phil at the 273 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:45.200 Groundhog. See it stuck with me. It's like an a mock device. 274 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.279 But and then you have four year old version, which you know, I 275 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.000 think, you know again, that's brilliant, especially you know, I mean, 276 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:55.960 it's probably even more true today than it was what it was made even 277 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.759 a few years ago, because you got a lot of millennials still living at 278 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.519 you know, they know what I mean that you're still living at home. 279 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.599 And that's true, that's true. But I think for me, the thing 280 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:15.519 the brilliance of the Appatoe film is the brilliant combination and and and uh and 281 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:26.599 the balance between gross out humor and real heart uh where Whereas before you had 282 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:32.160 lots of films, you know, like those uh Rob Schneider films, which 283 00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:37.680 were just basically, how can we be grosser than the Farrely Brothers and and 284 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.720 get away with it and get some laps. But what Judd Apatow did is 285 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:48.480 he he kind of hit the sweet spot between uh, you know, a 286 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:56.119 conservative sentimental story and uh, you know, balls to the wall gross out 287 00:22:56.200 --> 00:23:02.160 humor. Uh and and in fact, in talking about the film. He 288 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:06.160 he, He often talks about the fact that there were things he cut out 289 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:11.920 because they lost the audience. They might have gotten some laughs from some from 290 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.079 some people, but if he when he showed it to the audience, for 291 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:22.240 instance, there were there was much more pornography, uh literal pornography, uh 292 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.240 that that they were looking at on the screens because they were in this uh 293 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:32.160 you know, the True Tech or whatever the name smart Tech was the electronics 294 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:36.559 store. And there was a sequence in which they lock Andy, which is 295 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:41.480 played by Steve Carrell in the in the booths where you could test out, 296 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.359 you know, sound systems, and they locked him in there with a pornographic 297 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.920 film to get him, you know, out of his I don't know, 298 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.920 virgin dumb and in the in one of the original cuts, uh, there 299 00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:59.359 was a lot more uh porno film in it. And in fact, I 300 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.039 this is a very this is a very uh I think, uh odd point. 301 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:10.279 But the actress in the porno film I think is Stormy Daniels. You 302 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:12.279 could check me on that, but I think that that's Stormy Daniels in there. 303 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:19.759 Uh. And And what they founded at a test screening was that it 304 00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:26.640 was funny. It got a laugh. But it lost the audience because you 305 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:30.319 know, maybe they were a little uncomfortable, or maybe they just thought, 306 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.359 oh, is this the movie we're gonna watch now, it's it's gonna be 307 00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:37.839 as you know, more gross than more gross and more gross grosser and grosser, 308 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:44.160 as supposed to dumber and dumber. And so he he edited that out, 309 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.240 and he trimmed it, and he took out the part that that pushed 310 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:51.799 the audience away, not offended the audience, but pushed them out of the 311 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:56.039 narrative, push them out of the caring about the character. Uh and and 312 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.799 and so to me, one of the one of the one wonderful things about 313 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.200 the movie is that right when you think, oh, now they're going to 314 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:10.759 really make fun of this character and they're going to mock him, you empathize 315 00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:15.200 with him. You sympathize with him, you feel bad for him. After 316 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:19.680 it's revealed that he's a virgin at the poker game, there's not a sequence 317 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:26.279 where he's like doing something dumb. He's riding his bike home in pain, 318 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:30.519 in agony. The first thing you see when he gets to his apartment is 319 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:37.240 a shot of him screaming, like this primal scream of pain. And humiliation, 320 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.640 And the result of that is that you're thinking, oh my god, 321 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:51.839 this isn't just a joke that's supposed to last for ninety minutes. This is 322 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:59.000 a human being who's you know, has this improbable I go back to impossible 323 00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:03.440 or improbable, improbable thing. He's forty years old, he's still a virgin. 324 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.680 It's not impossible, but it's improbable. And what would happened? What 325 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:14.279 would he do? And and the guys at the at the at smart Tech, 326 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.839 they don't just make they don't make fun of him. Some of them 327 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:21.000 do, some minor characters who we see for a second, but the main 328 00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:25.519 three buddies seth Rogen, Paul Rudd, and Rominy Malco. They're out to 329 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:33.880 help him. It's actually a very heartwarming and an inclusive movie about about growing 330 00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:38.240 up and transformation. So so to me, those those are movies. When 331 00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:48.680 I go to the movies and I see something that's not not really a transcendent 332 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:53.240 experience, I often have to go and watch something else that I think I 333 00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:00.799 think is. And it could be something as as classic as Shop around the 334 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:06.160 Corner, or You've Got Mail, which is the same story but updated, 335 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:12.359 or it's a wonderful life or Meet Me in Saint Louis. These stories that 336 00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:18.640 combine comedy with heart and and a point of view and an idea in their 337 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:23.160 head. You know, you mentioned The Fairly Brothers. One of my favorite 338 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:26.400 movies of all time, by the way, is Dumb and Dumber. And 339 00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.240 you know, because you also mentioned Dumb and Dumber. I don't know if 340 00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:33.559 you met that on purpose, but you know what I mean, And so 341 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:34.559 I just wanted to say, what do you what do you think of Dumb 342 00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:38.920 and Dumber? I think it's one of the things that when I when I 343 00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:45.200 talked about movies that are just kind of designed to make you laugh and not 344 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:52.279 not a lot else. That's one of the movies that succeeds wonderfully because they 345 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.440 they have this silly premise where these two dumb guys are going to go on 346 00:27:57.599 --> 00:28:03.279 this road trip and they just keep on finding inventive ways to keep it fresh. 347 00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:07.240 And one of the ways that they do it is by uh, at 348 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:11.519 any one point one of them, one of the dumb guys is slightly more 349 00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:17.440 aware and smarter than the others. So it's this wonderful Abbot and Costello, 350 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:22.720 Laurel and Hardy routine all the way throughout. But they but they switch it 351 00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:29.279 enough so that it doesn't become repetitive or predictable. So I I I love 352 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.319 I Love Dumb and Dumber and uh, and I think it's it's it's one 353 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:40.000 of the it's one of the few movies that I think tries to be funny 354 00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:45.559 from beginning to end and then succeeds. But it's really really hard. And 355 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.880 if and if you want proof of how hard it is, take a look 356 00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:55.079 at The Fairly Brothers Three Stooges, which is you know, listen, these 357 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:59.799 are the same guys. They're talented guys. Bobby read my book and wrote 358 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:00.799 me in nice note about it, which I love, you know, which 359 00:29:00.839 --> 00:29:07.839 I liked. But the Three Stooges, it only works sporadically because there's not 360 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:11.720 you know, because there's really no story other than hey, we're doing the 361 00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:18.200 Three Stooges and and it's got some silly plot, but you don't really care 362 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.960 about them the way you care about the characters in Dumb and Dumber or or 363 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:30.359 more, uh, even more the characters and there's something about Mary. Yeah, 364 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.920 and you know, that's kind of one of the hardest things to do 365 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.559 for writers, right, is to create empathy for a character, so so 366 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.160 the audience, you know, they they not only they don't sympathize, but 367 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.839 you know, sympathy is feeling sorry for somebody, but empathy is putting yourself 368 00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:51.799 into their shoes so you can see things from their point of view. And 369 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:55.039 that's kind of one of the hardest things that I think for writers to do, 370 00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:00.440 because it's what Pixar does so well. Will be right back after a 371 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:08.599 word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, which is, 372 00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:11.920 you know, right off the bat, caring about characters getting involved in their 373 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:15.160 story so you actually give it damn if they succeed, if they succeed or 374 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.400 not. Well, in a way, it's actually the easiest thing to do 375 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:22.640 because all you have to do is tell your own story. One of the 376 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:29.839 things that Pixar does so well is they spend so much time on story and 377 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:36.640 they're willing to throw out years of work, hundreds and thousands of dollars worth 378 00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:41.400 of work, in order to get the story right in inside out. For 379 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:47.079 instance, at first it was going to be Joy, the character of Joy 380 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:51.400 and Fear going on that journey, and then they spend a lot of time 381 00:30:51.759 --> 00:30:55.720 trying to make that work, and it didn't work, and ultimately they had 382 00:30:55.799 --> 00:31:00.519 to go. They had to realize that what Joy needs is her opposite. 383 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:07.480 Joy needs sadness. And the way you get there is not by intellectualizing, 384 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:11.640 by going you know what, I think joy should be what you do, 385 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:15.559 what you get. How you get there is by sharing your own feelings, 386 00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:22.559 sharing your own sense of what's happened to you as a person. I can't 387 00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.680 remember exactly who on the creative team it was, but somebody had the experience 388 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:33.160 of leaving Minnesota and going to a new city as a kid, and that 389 00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:37.599 became the movie. So it's not a matter of how can you make a 390 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:44.240 character empathetic, Tell your own story, be honest in the fictional in that 391 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:51.880 fictional world, tell your own story. Somebody once said that all fiction is 392 00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:59.079 autobiography. Every piece of fiction is back as actually telling you more about the 393 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:02.319 person who's writing it then about the characters who are in it. And I 394 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:08.759 think that's true. So in There's Something about Mary, there's this wonderful moment. 395 00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.000 It's not the first moment in the film, but it's one of the 396 00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:20.400 flashback moments when we see Ben Stiller as a teenager with really terrible graces. 397 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:24.799 Go to pick Mary up for the prom, and he rings the doorbell and 398 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.960 this the door opens, and I forget the name of the actor, but 399 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:37.079 the actor is Africdavid. Keith David, Right, Keith David opens the door, 400 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:39.960 and you know, Mary's not African Americans. So he's confused for a 401 00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.799 second, so he kind of peeks up at the door number for a second, 402 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:46.480 and then the guy says, what are you here for? And he 403 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:51.000 says, I'm here to pick up Mary for the prom. And Keith David, 404 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:52.759 because Keith David's this practical joke, he says, all Mary went to 405 00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:58.880 the prom twenty minutes ago with a boy friend Woogie. And there's this moment 406 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:06.680 where you see Ben Stiller's face just just you know, fall apart. You 407 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:09.000 know, he's and he's trying, you know, he's trying to hold it 408 00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:13.720 together and just goes kind of okay, and he's about to walk away, 409 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.799 and yes, then the mom comes in and says, oh, he's kidding, 410 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:23.119 come on in. But in that moment, we confronted all our disappointments 411 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:29.799 from adolescence. Everybody who's ever stood up or or didn't have a dat or 412 00:33:29.920 --> 00:33:35.359 had a bad date or or or was passed over for being picked for volleyball. 413 00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:38.240 You know, we we all empathize with that moment. And it's not 414 00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:45.079 saved the cat. It's basically the cat scratched me, and and and and 415 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:51.039 it's a universal feeling. So what happens, what happens in the comedy is 416 00:33:51.079 --> 00:34:00.160 you want to make sure that the more the more exaggerated and ridiculous event that's 417 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:04.960 going to happen later on in the movie. That means that you have to 418 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:08.320 be more honest and real earlier in the movie to make us care, make 419 00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:15.840 us care, because eventually later on in that scene, Ben Stiller finds himself 420 00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.440 in a bathroom and he zips up too quickly and he catches a very important 421 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.840 appendage in a zipper, which is ridiculous. I mean, it's it's just, 422 00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:29.000 you know, flat out silly. But if we don't care about the 423 00:34:29.079 --> 00:34:31.519 character, that's all it is. It's just silly as opposed to us, 424 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:37.800 us kind of putting ourselves in his shoes and going, man, what else 425 00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:43.559 what else wrong could happen today? And and basically, you know, well 426 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.880 you always said Steve the the in like an action movie, the hero has 427 00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:52.840 all the tools. But but in a comedy, the hero has no tools 428 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:57.679 whatsoever. Well, not not no tools, but the hero lacks some, 429 00:34:58.079 --> 00:35:01.440 if not most, of the tools. I mean, Woody Allen's very very 430 00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:06.960 witty and very bright, but he's a physical coward. So you can't it 431 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:12.719 can't be a total normally, it can't be a total loser. But but 432 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:15.559 somebody who lacks some, if not, if not all, the skills. 433 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:19.719 I mean. One of the in working on the comic Hero's Journey, which 434 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.119 was taking a look at the hero's journey from a comedy point of view, 435 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:27.519 one of the things that we that we came to in the beginning was the 436 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:32.800 fact that in a in a drama, in an action film, the hero 437 00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:39.239 has all the skills necessary. Sometimes they're hidden within. They have greatness hidden 438 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:44.400 within, only they don't know it, perhaps like Luke Skywalker. But in 439 00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.119 a comedy, your character shots the movie off with, well, there's no 440 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:53.119 greatness within there as far from greatness within as is humanly possible. And basically 441 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:58.920 the story of a comedy is a story of a character who is comfortable. 442 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:06.159 Youse too, has has resigned themselves to being this imperfect person. In fact, 443 00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.280 most of the times they don't even know that they're imperfect, and something, 444 00:36:09.519 --> 00:36:15.559 some impossible or improbable thing happens to push them out of their comfort zone 445 00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:22.440 and they're forced to transform. And they do transform because they because like in 446 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:25.800 Big where he wakes up, he's thirty years old. In Groundhog Day, 447 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:30.079 he's waking up, it's the same day over and over again. There's no 448 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:37.639 choice but to transform because their circumstances have changed so that they're our characters in 449 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:45.760 a comedy, become somebody who is a more actualized human being. It has 450 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:51.199 more skills, but they start off as big zeros what we call you know, 451 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:53.559 take you know, taking your zero and making him into a hero. 452 00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:58.519 Right, And to go along with where you just said, you know, 453 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:01.719 you're right, I misspoke when I said lack of lack of skills, right, 454 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.480 No, or sorry, it has zero skills because you have to have 455 00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.159 at least one trait for the audience to be like, maybe this guy has 456 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:14.239 a shot at something. Yeah yeah, so so you know, you see 457 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:15.239 that's where my head's at. Steve. I'm always like, look, just 458 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:19.119 so let's just give them nothing and go from let's go for no, no, 459 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.880 give give them something. I mean, uh, In Bride's Maids, 460 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:28.880 Christian wig is Is is totally messed up, but at least she has a 461 00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:34.400 good best friend in Maya Rudolph, even even though she doesn't have a job 462 00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.239 and she doesn't have a boyfriend and John Hamm is terrible to her. So 463 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:43.000 so so our our heroes, our comic heroes start off with something, but 464 00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:50.000 most of the time that they're they're they're not aware of how of how bad 465 00:37:50.119 --> 00:37:55.400 their predicament is, or how uh what what their what their minus is, 466 00:37:55.480 --> 00:38:01.360 their negative is, and and most of the time times our comic heroes start 467 00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:10.199 off with a short sighted goal. You know, uh, Bill Murray and 468 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:15.679 Groundhog Day only wants to get a job at a at a bigger station where 469 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:22.360 it can be newscaster. Uh. Steve Carrell in The fourty year Old Virgin 470 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:27.599 Only he just wants to continue what he thinks is a great life. You 471 00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:30.599 know. He makes an omelet every morning by himself, and he plays with 472 00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:37.519 his dolls, and he he has all his h his his merchandise still in 473 00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:42.599 their original packaging, and he watches Survivor with the elderly couple upstairs. He's 474 00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.800 to him, that's okay, I'm not he's not. He doesn't complain, 475 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:51.239 and he's not even totally conscious that he's that he's unhappy. But what happens 476 00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:55.480 as our characters transform is they get what we call the discovered goal. That 477 00:38:55.639 --> 00:39:01.239 in comedies, our characters discover a goal halfway through midway through that that that 478 00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:07.519 then becomes their ultimate goal, their their outer goal in order to accomplish whatever 479 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:10.840 they're trying to accomplish in the in the movie. Because like in four year 480 00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:14.880 Old Virgin, you know, if if it were to be like let's just 481 00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.079 say, you know, real life, and and you know that main character 482 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:22.559 never ever realized how unhappy he was. You know, he was always forty 483 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:27.239 uh, he was always just going to do the same old thing essentially. 484 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.360 You could see that he would never change his routine and he would just kind 485 00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:35.400 of you know die so to speak, physically, and it was just surrounded 486 00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:38.320 by that stuff and he would never there was an issue. Yeah. So, 487 00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:40.760 and then again when when you're just going back to the four ye old 488 00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:45.199 Virgin, when when his whole goal was just to get laid at first, 489 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:49.679 and then he realizes he's found somebody he actually loves. By the by the 490 00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:57.920 yeah, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now 491 00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:02.400 back to the show. So the first thing he says is I respect I 492 00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:07.280 totally respect women. I respect them so much I stay the hell away from 493 00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:12.320 them. And then later on it's like, no, I don't want to 494 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.239 go to bed with the girl from the bookstore. I I I love Trish 495 00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:22.679 played by Catherine Keener. And and he he does something which is way outside 496 00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:28.119 his comfort zone. He races after her on his bike, uh to you 497 00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:30.639 know, to get the girl of his dreams. So so there there are 498 00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:35.840 a lot of there are some similarities between the hero's journey and the comic hero's 499 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:38.599 journey. You know. You often at the end of an action film, 500 00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:43.800 you have the race to the finish. Uh. In a comedy, you're 501 00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:52.920 you're seeing character transform go from uh, you know, uh a zero to 502 00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:59.559 a mensh and a mention's Yiddish word that means like a good man, uh, 503 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:07.039 a complete person. And so in an action film, Bruce Willis is 504 00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.039 going to kick ass from the minute he shows up on screen screen to the 505 00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:15.280 end. But our heroes in a comedy, uh, they're not going to 506 00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:19.559 kick ass in the beginning. They have to learn, they have to gain 507 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:27.360 skills. They have to gather allies, and they have to become better, 508 00:41:28.440 --> 00:41:35.960 better human beings in the world, more more comfortable, more integrated into the 509 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:39.559 world that they live in. And you know, we've kind of been, 510 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:44.000 you know, talking sort of in a round about way about the comic hero's 511 00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:47.320 Journey. So let's look about your new books, my new books. Funny, 512 00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:51.119 you should mention that that's my new book, The Comic Hero's Journey, 513 00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:57.559 Serious story structure for Fabulously Funny Films, now published by Michael We see productions 514 00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:00.280 now available in your local Amazon. Well, you know it's funny. I 515 00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:04.960 look down by my foot and there it was, just sitting there. I 516 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:07.559 was like, hey, wait a minute, here did this get here? 517 00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:10.960 But you know, we would you know, talking you know in a right 518 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.800 about way about you know, creating characters and you know, finding out their 519 00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.239 their sort of wants and needs and goals, and you know, so what 520 00:42:20.440 --> 00:42:22.480 was sort of the impetus for you to sort of write this book, uh, 521 00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:27.400 you know, for for the Comic Here's Journey. Well, I had 522 00:42:27.480 --> 00:42:31.159 been I had written my previous book, They Hidden Tools of Comedy, which 523 00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:37.440 was which were specific tools and principles that you could apply towards film or television, 524 00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:42.800 and I would be teaching these workshops and people would say would say, 525 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.760 well, how would this happen at this part in the movie. And it 526 00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:52.159 just made me think, Okay, there are all these books and and and 527 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.360 about story structure, and and a lot of my friends have written books about 528 00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:04.440 story structure, like Michael hay and and and John Truby and Chris Boebler, 529 00:43:04.719 --> 00:43:07.880 And I thought, well, well, is that how the how is that 530 00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:15.119 story structure that the three act format or the sixth uh you know, plot 531 00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:21.400 point turning format. How does that work for comedy? So I started to 532 00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:24.719 explore that, and I realized some of it is similar, but there are 533 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:32.239 important elements that are completely different and that that are different in a comedy than 534 00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:37.960 than in h than in a dramatic or or action film. And so I 535 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:43.760 started working on it. I started, uh, and I pitched into my 536 00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:49.079 publisher and I I mentioned it to Chris Foebler, who's written the you know, 537 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.239 the Writer's Journey, which is based on the Joseph Campbell work The Mono 538 00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:57.679 Myth and The Hero of a Thousand Faces, And I said, uh, 539 00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:02.079 Chris, do you mind? I'm going to steal your title and and your 540 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:06.800 idea. I'm going to use it for comedy and and after a moment he 541 00:44:06.920 --> 00:44:12.800 said, okay, only only only mention me as you're doing it. So 542 00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:20.480 I did, and so I and so this is a template for writing a 543 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:24.400 comic feature. It's not it's not the only way to write a comic feature. 544 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:31.880 It's not uh the uh, the end all and be all of how 545 00:44:31.960 --> 00:44:35.960 to structure a story. But it's one way of taking a look at the 546 00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:43.679 hero's journey and seeing how that that mono myth works for comedy and and the 547 00:44:44.559 --> 00:44:51.840 the I think one of the big differences is understanding that your hero starts off 548 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:55.760 at a loss, and you know that we talked about, and understanding that 549 00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:02.000 the funny thing that happens to them at that what we call the comic premise, 550 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:10.000 the impossible or improbable thing is the only time in the story that you 551 00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:15.840 can make ship up, that you can lie that. After you impose that 552 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:23.239 impossible or improbable event or or happenstance, then you have to play honestly, 553 00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:32.000 develop the develop the narrative, honestly true character and truth theme. We talk 554 00:45:32.079 --> 00:45:37.800 about the fact that that characters are transforming, they have a discovered goal uh, 555 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:43.800 and then we talk about the fact that and this is uh to me, 556 00:45:44.000 --> 00:45:50.559 this is almost uh. It goes without saying, but I found out 557 00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:55.679 that that it was a little bit of a revelation to people that I was 558 00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:01.679 working with or talking to in workshops, is that in order for the comic 559 00:46:01.719 --> 00:46:06.360 hero's journey to work, there has to be real pain and real loss. 560 00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:10.920 There has to be there has to be honest moments where where you where you 561 00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:17.719 drop into drop into drama. Otherwise it doesn't it doesn't mean anything, it 562 00:46:17.800 --> 00:46:25.039 doesn't matter. So so that's that's a part of the of the comic hero's 563 00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:30.960 journey that's essential for comedies. And I can think of a good comedy in 564 00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:35.960 which there isn't some moment where we're all where the healer, where all is 565 00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:39.760 lost, you know, the the the hero seems that they've given up, 566 00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:44.320 that they're not going to achieve their goals, that that the story is not 567 00:46:44.440 --> 00:46:46.400 going to end end happily. And it doesn't mean you have to have a 568 00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:51.920 happy ending, but it does mean that you have to allow your character to 569 00:46:52.039 --> 00:46:59.840 experience not funny loss and pain, but real loss and pain. Right, 570 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.239 So there actually has to be some real stakes, some actual losses, so 571 00:47:04.360 --> 00:47:07.679 you know what I mean. So it has to feel like you feel real 572 00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:09.880 and feel that there's actually something at stake here rather than just kind of like 573 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:14.079 going, oh, you know, it'll it'll work out, or or it's 574 00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:16.880 all silly, so don't worry about it. You can't be It can't be 575 00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:22.199 a bugs Bunny cartoon where where you shoot bugs in the face with a shotgun 576 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:25.199 and and hey there's when the smoke clears. He just has, you know, 577 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:30.199 a bad complexion, but everything else is okay. So so one of 578 00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:36.000 the one of the things that I've noticed in examining a lot of movies to 579 00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:43.400 write the book is not only are there moments of loss and pain near three 580 00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.199 quarters of the way through, but a lot of movies start off with the 581 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:53.559 characters having having dealt with loss and pain, or dealing with loss and pain, 582 00:47:54.199 --> 00:47:59.800 starting with you know, Sleepless in Seattle, where it starts off following 583 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:05.599 the death of Tom Hanks's wife and now he's a widower or spy with Melissa 584 00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:12.519 McCarthy, where in the first ten minutes, uh the hero of the movie 585 00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:17.039 her the person she idolizes, Jude Law, who's this very James Bondian kind 586 00:48:17.079 --> 00:48:25.519 of spy is is killed spoiler spoiler alert, seemingly killed right right in front 587 00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:32.239 of her ears because she's she's monitoring everything back back in Langley, Virginia. 588 00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:39.639 That that a lot of the comedy comes out of real loss and pain as 589 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:44.239 opposed to, well, it's a comedy, so nothing serious can really happen, 590 00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:47.280 you know, and there's a you know. It was a great example 591 00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:52.719 was the Hangover because you kind of felt and as some actual pressure there, 592 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:54.599 and you know what I mean, because because hey, look there's a groom 593 00:48:54.639 --> 00:48:58.119 that we have to find because you know, and we're the guys that lost 594 00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:04.199 them. Right. Actually I like parts of The Hangover, but I wasn't 595 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:09.599 crazy about the Hangover precisely because, uh, those the you know, especially 596 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:15.679 the Bradley Cooper character, was so a moral is like this teacher is drinking 597 00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:20.880 and let's just go off and do this thing and let's just party. And 598 00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:25.360 their relation, none of their relationships, I mean, certainly the who's the 599 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.639 guy who lost the tooth at Holmes right, the Aed Helms character, his 600 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:35.039 his relationship is horrible. You don't want him to end up with her. 601 00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:40.079 So so so one of the things that that that I was not crazy about 602 00:49:40.119 --> 00:49:47.920 in The Hangover was the lack of of empathetic characters and and and and thematic 603 00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:54.320 uh, thematic development and resolution. We'll be right back after a word from 604 00:49:54.360 --> 00:50:04.440 our sponsor, and now back to the show. But what was brilliant about 605 00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:10.519 The Hangover was how it melded a frat boy Las Vegas movie with a mystery. 606 00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.159 And to me, that was that was what what made it very special 607 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:21.039 is that once you woke up and there's a baby and a tiger, and 608 00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:24.960 how the hell did those things get there? Everything else worked because they had 609 00:50:25.039 --> 00:50:29.679 to They had to go on this this mystery, you know, had to 610 00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:35.639 solve this this impossible mystery. And the way that they did that, you 611 00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:39.039 know, led them into funnier and funnier situations. For me, the funniest 612 00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:44.800 moment is when the I think it's Ken Young, the naked Asian guy jumps 613 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:49.119 out of the trunk of the car. That was funny. But the most 614 00:50:49.159 --> 00:50:53.280 satisfying moment of the movie was the was the credits where you see the night, 615 00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:57.400 you know, in all those photographs, you see the night that they 616 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:01.719 went through. And and because at the heart of the Hangover is a gag. 617 00:51:05.079 --> 00:51:07.239 That's why Hangovers two and three, while they might have made money, 618 00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:15.880 were aesthetically not very satisfying for me at least because there's nothing there. You 619 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:20.480 know, I don't really care about those guys. Uh and and the only 620 00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:25.760 guy I might want to care about, uh was in Hangover was basically on 621 00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:31.960 a roof lost for for most of the movie. So so so I I 622 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:40.480 I have to be ah, somebody who is on the don't love Hangover side. 623 00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:45.360 Well, I'm still a great guy, Dave, You're still a wonderful 624 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.280 guy. Nevertheless, oh, thank you, thank you. I'm gonna hold 625 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:52.119 you to that. Steve by the way, Okay, well, I agree 626 00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:58.079 that the Hangover sequels I I I and you know this too. When whenever 627 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:00.840 there's a hit movie, you know, there's an inclination in Hollywood to say, 628 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:04.079 hey, you know, let's start churning out those sequels. You know, 629 00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:08.480 let's hang Over seventeen. Sounds good to me, right, But then 630 00:52:08.480 --> 00:52:10.559 again, you know, if I was in a position where somebody was like, 631 00:52:10.599 --> 00:52:13.719 hey, look, davey, if you if you make a hit movie, 632 00:52:13.880 --> 00:52:15.719 we'll give you a couple of million to write the sequel, I'd be 633 00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:16.800 like, you know what, I'm going to write to my handfalls off. 634 00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:21.920 You know, I think I think I'm with you there, but yeah, 635 00:52:22.119 --> 00:52:25.039 I'm like, I'll be in my grave writing sequels to that movie as well 636 00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:30.000 as you're writing checks. But hey, there's there's a comedy idea right there, 637 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:34.519 Steve. There's a comedy story somewhere in there. There's a comedy story 638 00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:39.159 everywhere. That's that's the whole point. Our lives are comedies, and we 639 00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:44.480 just have to be brave enough to tell them. Yeah, and you know 640 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.679 that's a very good point, Steve. And you know, you know, 641 00:52:46.920 --> 00:52:51.000 and that's why I made sure to pick up your book, your you know, 642 00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:53.679 your other book, The Hidden Tools of Comedy. By the way, 643 00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:57.880 just as a quick side note, the other two episodes of the of the 644 00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:01.880 podcast where you're on Steve, they do phenomenal numbers still to this day. 645 00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.119 Wow. Yeah, so a year and a year and a hair perspectively, 646 00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:09.599 are still doing great numbers, Like you know, when I when I pulled 647 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:14.360 like a three month kind of window of the past downloads, you're always in 648 00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:16.599 there. Wow, that's great. Well, then we should let people know 649 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:20.679 how to get in touch with me. Where can people find you at? 650 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:24.159 Steve? People can find me at my website, which is www. Kaplan 651 00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:30.000 with a K Kaplan Comedy Comedy with the C Caplincomedy or one word Kaplincomedy dot 652 00:53:30.119 --> 00:53:36.320 com. Or they can email me at Steve at Kaplincomedy dot com. Or 653 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:45.559 they can frame me on Facebook at Caplincomedy and or or they can follow me 654 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:51.159 on Twitter at sk Comedy. And I'm going to link to all that in 655 00:53:51.239 --> 00:53:54.880 the show notes everyone, including a link to Amazon to buy Steve's new book, 656 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:59.079 The Comic Heroes Journey and his other book By the Way, they Hidden 657 00:53:59.119 --> 00:54:02.239 Cool hit they Hidden Tools of Tomedy. Did I say the Hidden Tools of 658 00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:06.599 comedy? Set the Hidden Cool of Comedy? Which I like even better? 659 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:09.039 I was like, wait, it didn't sound right. Wait next printing, 660 00:54:09.239 --> 00:54:13.880 that's that's going to be the new title. Wow, I think I think 661 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:15.239 I just gave you your next your next book, Steve. The hint. 662 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:22.239 I'm working on that right now. And I'm gonna link to everything we talked 663 00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:25.559 about in this show notes everyone at Dave Bullis dot com. Twitter, It's 664 00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:30.679 at DV podcast Steve Kaplan as always, man, thank you so much for 665 00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:32.920 coming on. Thank you Dave, and be able to look out for that 666 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:37.159 jacket in the mail. By the way, okay, third time jacket. 667 00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:39.679 You know they're aren't a lot of us here, There's not. It's a 668 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:45.039 rare club, Steve. Okay, I feel honored. I have a going 669 00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:49.800 buddy you too, Thanks Dave. I want to thank Dave so much for 670 00:54:49.880 --> 00:54:52.159 doing such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links 671 00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:53.880 to anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes 672 00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:59.159 at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three forty one. Thank you so 673 00:54:59.280 --> 00:55:01.599 much for listening to guys. As always, keep on writing no matter what. 674 00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:07.000 I'll talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast 675 00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:08.440 at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.