WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:06.120 The Chilly Effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like you, 2 00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:15.759 Yeah, now and nowivated in our media tack February seven, twenty twenty 3 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:19.399 four, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar, and this is 4 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:23.000 the O'Kelly effect. So I'm doing this live, but of course most of 5 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:27.839 you will catch the podcast later on, and it's always interesting on a Wolden's 6 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:31.640 Day Wednesday, middle of the week to speak with you. Who do I 7 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:35.679 have with me tonight, Larry Hancock? What are we going to discuss ready? 8 00:00:35.759 --> 00:00:40.439 The JFK assassination. No, it's not a replay, but we have 9 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:46.159 done this quite a few times, and lately Larry's been working on something that 10 00:00:47.240 --> 00:00:53.799 well, I'm extremely interested in because I think an honest and really serious re 11 00:00:53.920 --> 00:01:00.600 evaluation, reframing, reissuance, if you will, of literature which has covered 12 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:03.519 this one individual, you know, in the case that would be the alleged 13 00:01:03.519 --> 00:01:07.519 assassin, right, And I do say alleged because he was never actually convicted 14 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:11.560 and so on and so forth. And no, I don't buy the hsca's 15 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:18.560 conclusion that it's a conspiracy most likely, but Oswald's involved, Nor do I 16 00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:22.560 necessarily buy the conclusion of the Warrant Commission, which is Oswald did it all 17 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.400 by himself, and then Ruby decided to kill him all by himself too, 18 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.319 and all that good stuff. But look, let's put that aside. How 19 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.079 about an honest view, a lens to look at this fascinating character who only 20 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:40.519 lived to be twenty four years of age when he died two days after the 21 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.680 President of the United States, which he allegedly assassinated. He dies in police 22 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:47.959 custody, and all of that. And is that at the beginning of the 23 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:56.040 problem, the end of the problem, or the remarkable unleashing of factoids and 24 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:01.040 representations of a guy who has been represented as everything from the next James Bond 25 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:08.319 to the crazy commy kid that just wanted to make his mark in history. 26 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:14.439 And authors of all stripes have tried to cover this, either in short biographies 27 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:21.199 or in completely dedicated volumes about this kid, Lee Harvey Oswald kid because he 28 00:02:21.240 --> 00:02:24.319 was twenty four years of age. Again, I stress it. Former marine 29 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:30.639 defective to the Soviet Union argued over now for more than half a century as 30 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:34.960 to exactly what his motivations were, what his activities were, etc. Etc. 31 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:39.000 And I've got Larry Hancock with me. Go to Larry Dashncock dot com, 32 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:43.479 Larryhypenhancock dot com. However it is you want to go, take a 33 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.560 look at his blog, take a look at his work. I recommend all 34 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:50.639 of his books, and there are many taking up a lot of space on 35 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.560 my bookshelf, and not just because they take up space, but because they're 36 00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:59.360 extremely valuable. And gee, let's see someone would have talked, yes, 37 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:07.639 indeed, point but a new project, re examining, reevaluating, going after 38 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:14.080 this individual who did exist, who was a person and according to some people 39 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:16.319 was multiple people, according to others, was again, like I said, 40 00:03:16.319 --> 00:03:21.599 a great spy, according to some fan fiction, had a mistress and a 41 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.719 wife, and his Russian wife was of interest, et cetera, et cetera. 42 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:29.120 Man, there's a lot to try and get at when it comes to 43 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:34.319 Lee Harvey Oswald Larry Hancock. First off, how you doing tonight, sir? 44 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.879 I think Jack, it's always good to be back. I appreciate it, 45 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:43.840 I really do. And we're going to tackle other issues throughout the year, 46 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:49.039 and I really appreciate that you're a regular reoccurring person on this this odyssey, 47 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:53.800 this this conversation, this revelation through conversation that we do here on the 48 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:59.680 O'Kelly effect foreshore, and really grateful. Gotta say, though, it's really 49 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:04.400 fat to me that a guy like you is wanting to take another look, 50 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:09.120 a serious look. And again, if we take a look at all the 51 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:12.879 authors who have tackled this subject, who have attempted to present us with a 52 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:18.519 biography, the real story, the guy behind the allegation, the alleged assassin. 53 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:24.279 I mean, whether it's television shows or again authors of I can't even 54 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:29.439 describe the different types of authors. I mean everybody from from Popkin to uh, 55 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:31.639 who was that guy who wrote Oswald's Tale? What was his name? 56 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:41.480 He was Norman Maman. Yeah, so from Norman Mayler to Richard Popkins to 57 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:46.399 God help us, the fan fiction of Judith Farry Baker to you know. 58 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:50.360 I mean, it's it's crazy, the the I mean, how many different 59 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:55.920 guys can you squeeze into one name as far as how he's been represented, 60 00:04:55.959 --> 00:05:00.480 But how about a legitimate look at what it is as we can learn about 61 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:04.920 the character. I mean, I've even seen people displaying the psychological studies, 62 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.279 all these other things. And by the way, look in the show notes 63 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:13.759 because the Lopez Report and links to it and how you can publicly access it 64 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:15.800 are going to be there, along with links to Larry's work, etc. 65 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.240 And again I urge you to follow through on all this stuff. Judge for 66 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:24.959 yourself and learn for yourself. You the listener. But Larry, you know, 67 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.920 I know I talk to you about the motivation behind this, but I 68 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:33.879 mean speak to me for a minute about the wide range of possibilities that have 69 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:42.439 been presented from everyone who is attempting to utilize them as part of a thesis, 70 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:47.759 part of a giant treatise, part of a massive volume of work. 71 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.040 Whether they wrote Oswaldness THEIA, or they wrote Reclaiming History and they wanted to 72 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:57.199 give you a biography on this guy, or they wrote and yeah, I'm 73 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.839 purposely choosing extremely diverse things here, whether they wanted to tell you that he 74 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:04.680 was two different people or three different people, and he had been guided by 75 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:10.120 the Intelligence agency since he was a child, like mister Armstrong wants to tell 76 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:15.279 you all these things. And then, of course people that might have been 77 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.839 advised or been advising the CIA, who are authors who also decided to move 78 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:23.959 in with Marina Oswald and live with her for a while, and I mean 79 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:28.560 it goes all over the place as to people getting in on it, telling 80 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.399 us they have the inside dirt, telling us they know the people who knew 81 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:34.240 him, telling us that they have all the information. And yet we have 82 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:43.319 a character you can't even begin to define with a paragraph or bring down to 83 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.319 a singular description. That makes sense when you take a look at the diverse 84 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:54.839 literature that has all been presented as nonfiction. So tell me about that for 85 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:58.600 a minute, like your thoughts on that. Yeah, one of the things 86 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:01.319 we have to deal with is at this point in time, and certainly it 87 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:05.399 was not true then. At one point in time, Oswell was just an 88 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:10.920 individual. I mean, if you just looked at Oswald's life as an individual 89 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:15.120 and look at him as a person, you know that you have an interesting 90 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.879 view of Oswell as a person with their own agenda, their only beliefs, 91 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:28.040 their own interests, their own evolving personality. You know that he was that 92 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.560 person at one time, but we've kind of thrown that away to some extent, 93 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:38.319 and now he exists in It's like it's multiple dimensions. There's Oswell's personal 94 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:44.439 dimension, there's the dimension of the Warren Commission report. There's the dimension of 95 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:50.720 us skeptics and critics and conspiracy believers. And then quite frankly, there's another 96 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:57.240 dimension entirely in which he existed, and that is the intention of American intelligence, 97 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.759 which which he certainly did exist in he was known to them was So 98 00:08:01.959 --> 00:08:09.680 the point is not getting stuck in any single dimension, because that's what tends 99 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.240 to happen when you tend to you want to write a book and you want 100 00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:18.040 to focus it, you tend to pick one of those dimensions. You tend 101 00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:22.480 to pick one of those views and do a job on it. And the 102 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:28.519 problem is that that kind of sharp lensed focus doesn't really give us the full 103 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.879 view of Oswell, because all it was in all of those different dimensions at 104 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.960 the same time. Something you and I are going to chat about this evening 105 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:45.440 Mexico City. Clearly, one of the things that's confused and made things chaotic 106 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:52.159 force is that Oswald was acting as an individual, he was of interest to 107 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:58.679 the CIA. The CIA was falling all over itself, and then after the 108 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:07.279 fact, Mexico City becomes convoluted even worse because of the obfuscation and obstruction that 109 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:13.799 occurs within the CIA itself in regard to the stumbling here over its own feet, 110 00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:22.120 which makes everything look especially sinister and especially mysterious. And so that's if 111 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:26.960 you want to address Lee Harvey Oswald, you've got to slice it. I 112 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.960 mean, you have to slice it to write about it. But you also 113 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.399 it has to be a linear view as well. You have to go back 114 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.080 and go you know, let's look at Oswald as a person, as an 115 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.639 individuals in history. What do we see him doing right now? Is that 116 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:50.000 consistent? Is it? Anomalists? As you and I have talked off, 117 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:54.039 Then it's like the real question is what are the what is the anomaly at 118 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.960 this point in time? And who owns it? In Mexico City, one 119 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:03.600 of the big anomal the big anomaly is owned by the CIA, not Lee 120 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:07.879 Oswald. If you look at israel story, what he said he was going 121 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:11.440 to do, what he did, and what he came back to Dallas afterwards 122 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:18.840 and did, it's all quite consistent. The ball of twine that we ended 123 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.840 up inheriting all comes from how the CIA responded him to him being there, 124 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:31.240 right And what's fascinating to me is that public exposure of this begins again in 125 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.720 a biographical sense, to me, in nineteen sixty four. Really after the 126 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:41.120 initial rush of you know, the news during the assassination and then during the 127 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:45.720 investigation of the Warrant Commission, you have you know, for instance, Life 128 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:48.919 Magazine in the summer of sixty four printing you know, parts of his so 129 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.080 called historical diary, right, stuff like that, Let's reveal what's really going 130 00:10:54.120 --> 00:11:00.000 on behind this figure, and you sort of can't blame people in sixty four, 131 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:03.000 sixty five, sixty six, Like I said, going through the Mark 132 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:09.720 Laane era, the Popkins era, where you have different exposures of things based 133 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:16.720 on limited information. That information, reliable information one way or another, into 134 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:24.720 various degrees, has been presented over the years in different packages. And indeed, 135 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.159 I think early on, for the first ten years, almost there is 136 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:35.960 a curiosity and a fascination, but there's limited lenses, there's limited abilities to 137 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.159 peer into that box, so to speak. That is that person, that 138 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:46.399 personality, that individual who was clearly involved in this somehow, But what was 139 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.480 his you know, what was his motive, who was in control, who 140 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:56.480 was actually pulling the strings? You know, all those things and the various 141 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:58.919 speculations that come into play. I mean, people a tied Oswald to every 142 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:05.600 thing from the CIA, to you know, various other government agencies, to 143 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:09.840 God help us all again somehow involving him with the mob, putting him in 144 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:15.360 the really bizarre David Ferry universe, which he was part of at one point, 145 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:18.000 but to what degree and what that actually means? Still as he had 146 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:24.360 unknown, all these things evolved over the years, and again the public perception 147 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.519 has been just all over the place. There is almost nowhere where people have 148 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.799 not tried to put him. I mean, and you don't have to be 149 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:37.639 Stephen King trying to write a time traveling essay about this, to create anomalies, 150 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:43.519 oddities, unanswered questions, so on and so forth. But the information 151 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.759 itself has evolved, and I think some people have picked a particular time on 152 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.639 the timeline and decided to stop looking beyond it. You know, once we 153 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.480 get to nineteen seventy five, we've got it all. Once we get to 154 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.080 nineteen ninety three, we've got it all. Once we get to you know, 155 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:03.639 Oliver Stones movie, we got it all. And it continues to evolve 156 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:11.840 as to what is available for somebody to cobble together right from various sources, 157 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:16.960 the different pronouncements, right even TV stations going and trying to interview the girls 158 00:13:16.960 --> 00:13:20.559 that went to middle school with them. I mean, for God's sake, 159 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.639 they went all over the map on this. So what do we do with 160 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:30.559 it and what can realistically be learned at this point in time? Again, 161 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:35.679 now we're sixty years beyond his death as well, it seems like maybe we're 162 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:41.120 further away from the truth because we're further away from that time period, and 163 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:45.519 yet we've been better informed all along the way. So I mean, that's 164 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:50.159 a hell of a thing to try and tackle again, just sticking to the 165 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:56.159 narrow lane here of the character of Lee Harvey Oswald. Who actually was he 166 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.440 on the board? Is he somebody who's being controlled by someone else? Or 167 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:05.840 is he an an independent actor? Is he somebody who just was in the 168 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.440 wrong place at the wrong time. I mean, it's all over the place, 169 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:11.679 right, I mean, where how do we how do we start to 170 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:18.279 boil that down and get to a realistic viewpoint that can be useful for people 171 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:22.879 to go forward. Is that what you're attempting to do? Well? Yeah, 172 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.679 And I will say, you know, the way you describe it is 173 00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:33.120 it is not unusual in writing history. I mean, we shouldn't really picture 174 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:39.240 it as something nobody's ever done before. Almost every major act in history, 175 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:46.080 every major individual in history. You know, that's always a challenge, you 176 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.759 know, because people have, especially any significant feature, they're going to have 177 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.399 different views. If you go back to the original sources, yeah, you 178 00:14:54.440 --> 00:15:03.039 will find six different sources that that offer you different insights and views. You 179 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.639 know, we think this guy was this, We think this guy was that. 180 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.799 He thought this battle, no, he thought that. This is not 181 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:13.200 unusual in history. Historians have to wrestle with this all the time. It's 182 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.519 a matter of looking, you know, looking for your sources, looking for 183 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.600 holes in the sources, where the holes are prejudiced, where they're biased, 184 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:26.600 where they're credible, checking them against other sources. A major point is looking 185 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:33.399 for consistency, you know, looking for consistency over time among different sources. 186 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.600 So I guess, Chuck, you know, I don't see it from the 187 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:46.159 perspective of a historian. It's challenging, but not unusual to face those obstacles. 188 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:50.279 It's just that in the realm that we live in in conspiracy, that's 189 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.879 not generally the way it's approached. It's generally looking at it from one of 190 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.120 the views I talked about, you know, we're we're not looking for history. 191 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:03.480 We're looking to thin the position. We suspect there's already a position, 192 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:08.600 and what can we find to support it. You mentioned something earlier with Life 193 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:15.159 Magazine and Oswell's diary. Okay, if you want the full picture, you 194 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:19.480 have to look at everything Oswell wrote. Okay, the letters he wrote, 195 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:26.840 the correspondence he did. You look at what he read read from his teenage 196 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:30.120 years on the speech. You look at what he read and wrote in Russia, 197 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.759 what he read and wrote in the US. You look at what he 198 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.039 was writing in nineteen sixty three. And it would have been fascinating if Life 199 00:16:37.080 --> 00:16:45.279 Magazine had had printed some of the monographs that he wrote in the spring of 200 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:52.480 nineteen sixty three, or had printed his seminary lecture talking about the problems with 201 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.799 Soviet communism, but that did not have But it's all there for us from 202 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:02.240 a historical perspective, right, And that's that's what's most interest. That's why 203 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:03.519 I said a couple of times when you were talking the speech you gave, 204 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:10.279 because that is fascinating, right, And this is a lot of writing, 205 00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:14.960 again for a kid who joined the Marine Corps, right, you know, 206 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.960 did complete his training went and got an assignment. Interesting part of history there 207 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.559 defects to the Soviet Union. I mean, this is a busy kid and 208 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:27.920 he takes typing classes in the spring of nineteen sixty three. So he wants 209 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:33.720 to be a serious writer, and he starts writing letters to the editor. 210 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:40.000 Nobody ever printed his letter to the editor about political issues of the day. 211 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:45.400 You know, you don't see that, but you know he wants seriously, 212 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.000 he wants to be a writer. That's his goal. He wants to be 213 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:53.559 a to do commentary on social issues. Now, you know, you got 214 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:57.680 to you got to say, that's a tough thing to hold for somebody that's 215 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:06.839 limited to manual labor because of the status of his service discharge. H And 216 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:11.759 we've talked about the fact that whenever he goes into interview, he interviews well 217 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.599 with the placement people and they actually test him and test his IQ and his 218 00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:19.680 skills and want to put him in management jobs. But there's no time for 219 00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:26.200 that because he needs money immediately. So it's a it's a very very complex 220 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:32.440 situation for an individual. But again, the good news is all that's therefore 221 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:37.240 us if we want to see it now, right, that's the the spring 222 00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:44.200 Hill College, the speech he gave, right, right, Uh huh, 223 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:45.599 yeah, okay, No, I'm just trying to I'm thinking through this, 224 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:51.160 and I mean it's interesting that, you know, he's got these public pronouncements, 225 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:52.799 he's got this you know, historical diary. Again, people have gone 226 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:57.640 over that many times for different reasons, and and all of this writing it 227 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:02.759 should provide a whole lot of insights into who the guy was, what he 228 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:04.599 was thinking, and what it was he was trying to present to the world. 229 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:08.240 And at the end of the day, though a lot of people relied 230 00:19:08.319 --> 00:19:12.599 on people like Ruth Payne and individuals that were supposed to be close to him. 231 00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:17.240 Right, what did they used to describe her as on early CBS TV 232 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:22.519 broadcasts and specials The best friend of the Oswald's, Right. I always find 233 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:25.160 that funny when when he, well, one of the Oswalds. I think 234 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.920 that would probably be safe to say at that time, right, but the 235 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.400 best friend of the couple. You know. Uh, it's interesting though, 236 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:34.880 she threw she threw a birth now and I'm going to push backed. She 237 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.839 threw a birthday party for le that fall after, you know, after he's 238 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:42.319 back in Dallas. Right, she threw a birthday party. It's not like 239 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:48.279 they didn't. She didn't treat him reasonably well, you know, she might 240 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:52.559 have whatever she felt. You know, he came to the house virtually every 241 00:19:52.599 --> 00:20:02.000 weekend hung out. You know, obviously who wants that. But reasonably speaking, 242 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:04.119 she didn't do. You know, she was not hostile towards you before 243 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:08.559 the assassination, right, And I mean, you know people have written things 244 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:12.319 about his last forty eight hours. I mean, Carmi did that article about 245 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.400 the last seventy two hours and what it was that he had the ability to 246 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:21.480 do during that time. Of course, Bill Wesley Frasier's written a book because 247 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.200 he's the guy who gave him a ride to work all the time. I 248 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.680 mean, you got Epstein with legend. I mean again, I'm just pointing 249 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:33.119 out the diverse stuff that it will come out here. And I know I 250 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.279 keep repeatedly doing it. It is not easy, There's no doubt about that. 251 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.200 And if somebody asked me how far out on the limb I was prepared 252 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.640 to go, I would go, well, there leaves out here, Yeah, 253 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.599 there you go. And I mean look, even if you go to 254 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:51.400 Robert Grodin's, you know, one of his you know, picture books on 255 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:56.640 the assassination is the search for Lee Harvey Oswald, which again presents a lot 256 00:20:56.680 --> 00:21:00.839 of interesting stuff. There's a lot of photographs of him doing this and that 257 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.519 I mean, you have Marina and Lee. Of course, Priscilla Johnson's you 258 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:10.559 know, was it McMillan was the final last name, Priscilla Johnson McMillan, 259 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:14.720 right, you know, and she moves in that's the one I mentioned before, 260 00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:18.839 moved in with Marina for a while. So there's lots of people that 261 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:26.359 went for the inside story, that had inside information, and I think pieces 262 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.359 of all of it are relevant now as to what they were spun into. 263 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:33.920 And again the fan fiction that's out there where you know, to me, 264 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.400 I see you know, Stephen King and some other people being in the same 265 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:42.920 category there because it's clearly not part of reality, but interesting how people interpret 266 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:48.480 the guy anyway, and even even the work of you know, somebody like 267 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:53.720 Newman Oswald and Cia. You've got this guy all over the place. So 268 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.839 again, how are we going to boil this down to this individual? And 269 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:03.920 I mean, I know you said that everybody in history who is a character 270 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:08.480 of interest gets a sort of treatment, and of course their character, their 271 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:14.640 representation how it is they're going to be preserved ever after. Always evolves and 272 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:18.440 usually settles down. But it seems to me after sixty years we've got nothing 273 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:22.240 settling down here when it comes to hot well, yeah, the best way 274 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.519 to do it, and historically the only way to do it is to do 275 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:33.440 it, is to do what I would call point counterpoint a good history. 276 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.200 We'll talk about taking information from you know, we'll actually say this is the 277 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:41.599 view from this direction, this is how it's supported, this is the view 278 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.839 from that direction. You know, you let the reader make their own choice. 279 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:49.920 And if you think there's you know, a particular source has issues, 280 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:55.839 then you call it out. But you don't. It's not solving something. 281 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:02.200 I think that's I'm talking about offering something which is historical view of Oswald in 282 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:07.799 several dimensions. I'm not talking about solving the issue of who was Oswald inside 283 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.039 his head? I can't go there, historians can't go there. Right, 284 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:18.400 It's just to give the most accurate and comprehensive view as possible, and then 285 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:23.599 the reader makes their call. There's again, I think it's kind of like 286 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:29.440 conspiracy. We would all who have been obsessed with this and interested in we'd 287 00:23:29.559 --> 00:23:33.200 like the final solution, right, Okay, you know, so how do 288 00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:38.279 you write that book? We you can't write that book. It's that we're 289 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:45.480 sixty years too late. Okay, So how can you read without having Oswald 290 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:51.279 around to interview? How can you write that book? You can't write the 291 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:56.799 absolute you know, biography autobiography of Oswald without being able to talk to him 292 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:03.680 and interview them, so as you can. I will say, one of 293 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:07.400 the many things that it does is that it flushes out a lot of assumptions. 294 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:12.519 It flushes just trying to do that flushes out what I what I'm seeing 295 00:24:12.519 --> 00:24:17.799 it is, it flushes out a lot of the assumptions that went with the 296 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.400 different views. You know, when you when you force them to the surface 297 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.480 and say, okay, if if I accept your view that Oswald is this, 298 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.960 what does it mean? Do we see that? Do we see that 299 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:36.720 it consistently yes or no? And it flushes out and raises those two maybe 300 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:41.400 grown words flush it. It raises those issues to the point where you can 301 00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:48.319 deconstruct them. And and I think that I think that's doable. But what 302 00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.960 we're suffering from is just way too much cherry picking. And I think, 303 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:59.880 for example, you cited one example from Grown's book. We have all suffered, 304 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.279 maybe consciously or not, from doing the cherry picking. We wanted to 305 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.559 go down the road. We wanted to go down the Warren Commission. I 306 00:25:07.640 --> 00:25:15.720 found fascinating that the FBI did so much research that you find in the volumes 307 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:21.359 that the Warren Commission report does not use. Here's an example, Okay, 308 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:26.920 one of Oswell's teachers. They quote the teachers saying Oswead was not, at 309 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.920 this point in time, not a social young man. Okay, So I'm 310 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:33.640 going, so what did the lady say. Let's go back and look at 311 00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:38.240 her whole testimony. Back in her whole testimony, she talks about him getting 312 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:44.480 a new dog puppy at Christmas time and bringing it to her house to visit 313 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:48.480 with her so they can all play with it. That did not show up 314 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.480 in the report. So you bounce this stuff against each other. That's the 315 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.839 way it really works. There's certainly more professional ways to say that than what 316 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.920 I just said, but you got to throw against each other and see what 317 00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:07.400 survives, and what survives, for example, is totally a false view that 318 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:14.440 Oswald was antisocial. The most that you could ever say is that under certain 319 00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:19.599 circumstances, he was asocial. Under other circumstances, he was extremely social. 320 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:26.200 In fact, maybe too social. But it's back to your question. No, 321 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.799 I don't think there's any reason to give up thinking that one can do 322 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:41.119 a reasonable objective history of Oswald acknowledging that there are different views that are in 323 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:47.440 contention. See what I think is what hasn't been done. Okay, and 324 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:49.640 this is what I haven't observed. Perhaps I've missed a book here or there, 325 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:55.640 but I haven't seen somebody say, look, here is a complete chronology 326 00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:00.880 of significant events. Basically, let's treat this guy's life as a whole. 327 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.839 Right, here's where he was born, et cetera. I mean, they 328 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.960 sort of start to do that, but it always spins away. Here's where 329 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:10.799 he was born, Here are significant events, so on and so forth, 330 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:12.920 and you only have to go up to twenty four years. Okay, it's 331 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:17.839 not that not that bad. You lay that out and you say, these 332 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.680 are the things of significance, these are formative, these are the things that 333 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.559 create the situations later, et cetera. You boil it down to some very 334 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:33.680 significant stuff and you lay it on a timeline, and then you have to 335 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.880 do that that's that's kind of that's kind of a minimum. Yeah, absolutely, 336 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:40.119 that has to be part of it. Yeah, but you notice none 337 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:44.279 of these books ever quite do that. They always you know, it gets 338 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:48.960 to a certain point and then it spins off into let's cherry pick what we 339 00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:53.759 need to get from this jump off point to he's actually connected to the mob, 340 00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:59.680 He's actually connected to this. He's he's actually training anti Castro Cubans a 341 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:03.880 whole lot more than we know, and he's actually really legitimately involved in that. 342 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:07.319 It's not a fake thing, because even though his chapter of the Fair 343 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:11.279 Play for Cuba Committee was a fake, he wasn't. He was really into 344 00:28:11.279 --> 00:28:15.440 it. You know, like they go into these other things and then they 345 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:21.720 abandon the actual chronology of it. Here's the timeline, here's the things, 346 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:26.480 how they happened, in order, how one thing leads to another, and 347 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:29.920 then that would amen. And I think the worst sin in that regard is 348 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:37.079 to write about something at one point in his life that's out of context. 349 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.240 It's kind of like you're writing about him now as he was three years before 350 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:47.640 with Oswald. In particular, to write about him at different points in a 351 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:52.240 school year, a school life, grade school, in high school life totally 352 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.599 different, which is another sin the Warrant Commission did. They wrote about him 353 00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:00.759 in New York City and not in New Orleans. Totally different young boy, 354 00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:08.240 totally different performance in school, writing about him before his experiences in including his 355 00:29:08.359 --> 00:29:17.200 social experiences in Japan. No, he's a different He changes as any young 356 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:22.039 person will. Most of the change in anybody's life is during those first twenty 357 00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.200 four years. But we don't do that with Oswald. We don't give him 358 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.279 the grace of being a different person at one point in time than he was 359 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:33.559 later. You know, it's okay, we can just we can pick cherry 360 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:38.920 pick things from different points in time and his own development and throw them together, 361 00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.000 you know, take them out of time, as it were, take 362 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:45.839 them out of the right sequence, right, And that that's a gross mistake. 363 00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:51.000 This has always been my contention with these with these attempts to write him 364 00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.599 into a particular you know, to kind of corner him into a character, 365 00:29:53.680 --> 00:30:00.839 right, is that they always go into a certain direction and almost almost inevitably 366 00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:06.240 claim that there is a consistency here. When I dare anybody listening to us 367 00:30:06.279 --> 00:30:11.799 right now to find somebody who is consistently the same person. Okay, during 368 00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:17.119 that part of their life. You are the one thing that is guaranteed in 369 00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:22.440 early adolescents, adolescents to teenage years, to your young manhood so to speak, 370 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.359 Okay, or you know, not not just that he's a man. 371 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.119 Young adulthood, Fine, let's go back to that. Young adulthood is guaranteed. 372 00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:33.319 You're in flux. You are what do they always say, you're finding 373 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:38.240 yourself. I mean, I don't know anybody who is exactly the same going 374 00:30:38.279 --> 00:30:44.119 through that time period, who has consistency. I mean, there may be 375 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.240 some consistent character traits. True, Okay, some things you may you know, 376 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:51.480 grab onto, you love chocolate ice cream from the time you're five, 377 00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.359 Okay, fine, But I mean, honestly, who is not in flux 378 00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:02.960 even without all of this activity, more mundane setting, in a more pedestrian 379 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:06.079 setting, in a more you know, I didn't join the army, I 380 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:07.759 didn't go out, I never left the town I lived in, or whatever. 381 00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:12.960 It doesn't matter the dynamic of that person is. I mean, find 382 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:18.279 me anybody who's exactly the same from the time they're a small child to the 383 00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:22.039 time that they're a teenager to the time that they're a young adult. I 384 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.119 mean, help me here, because I don't think that that's like a person, 385 00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.400 a real person. Now, the best you can find, and for 386 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.759 Oswell, the best I could offer there may be a couple of general behavior 387 00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:38.359 profiles. One thing you can say about Oswell is he was easily bored, 388 00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:45.680 and he was bored even with things that he liked. He could throw him 389 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:52.519 into self into something and six months later it's even want something else. He 390 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:57.880 did become easily bored both as a from I would say from his school years. 391 00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.559 He could be a good student in class up to a certain point, 392 00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.200 and we thought he had gotten everything out of he could be making a's If 393 00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:12.839 he thought he'd gotten everything out of it, he would start cutting class. 394 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:16.359 He was just easily bored. And that that goes all the way through. 395 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:22.960 It's fascinating. It applies to his social life too, right in compand he 396 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:29.359 throws himself into you know, kind of the frat house collegiate behavior, and 397 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:32.839 you know after six months he's bored with that. Okay, so much for 398 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:37.680 sex and bars, you know, okay, let's move on, which is 399 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:44.319 kind of a fascinating character trait, right, And honestly, look, I've 400 00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:47.000 heard that story a million times from different guys who you know, got in 401 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:52.440 the military as young men. Right, they get involved, they get to 402 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.559 travel, they're excited. Everything's great and cool and all that, and they 403 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:58.880 have fun and they're enjoying, you know, drinking beers. They can't read 404 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:00.880 the labels of there. They're in a place where they can't speak the language, 405 00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.839 but they're having fun. Stuff like this they do when they're getting stationed 406 00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:08.799 overseas. And I don't think he's a typical in that way. And that's 407 00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:14.200 the funny thing. The consistency you could see is that he's a guy who 408 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:19.720 is in search of acknowledgment. Right. He wants to be acknowledged. He 409 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.839 wants to be viewed as somebody of significancy. Now this almost sounds like I'm 410 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:27.000 making the warrant commission argument, Right, he wanted to make his place in 411 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.680 history, right, Ruth Payne supporting that. Maybe he did, But was 412 00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:35.880 it the way that they're saying it? Yeah? Good, yeah, but 413 00:33:35.960 --> 00:33:40.079 in a different way. That's where you get back to his writing that if 414 00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:45.920 you look at that statement, he wanted to his writing, he was looking 415 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:52.559 for a solution. He really wanted to be as de Mornshield said, Oswold 416 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:58.079 himself quoted him. It's like I know that I'm looking for something that I'm 417 00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:02.839 never going to find. What he was looking for is some political solutions, 418 00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:09.079 some ideological solution to address the things that had most concerned him throughout his life, 419 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:15.760 which were already social services. You know, that had been a problem 420 00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:20.480 for his mother, had been a problem for him. And if you look 421 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.400 at his writing, that's where he's going. He wanted to his The last 422 00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:30.559 thing he wrote was essentially a thesis on how you could bring two political systems 423 00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:37.159 together and address that problem. It wasn't you know personally, It was recognition 424 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:40.480 for what he was thinking, for his ideas, not for what he was 425 00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:45.159 doing. And I think that's the problem is you can take that same statement 426 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.719 that you just made kind of like he wanted to be known for, okay, 427 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.920 and again you can jerry pick it into where you wanted he wanted to 428 00:34:53.960 --> 00:35:00.280 be famous for. I see no sign he wanted he wanted to solve that 429 00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:05.760 problem. He really did, and he and he knew it was probably unsolvable 430 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.239 with his think about that for a minute. No, but but almost, 431 00:35:10.880 --> 00:35:15.159 you know, he was almost meant to be in the current Congress. Well, 432 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.599 right, because look, you're meant to go out there and say there's 433 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:22.239 a problem here. Uh, And yeah, he was definitely stating that he 434 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.239 could recognize the problem. He wanted to be seen as the clever guy. 435 00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:29.159 And that's in the macro and the micro, right, because the guy who's 436 00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:34.880 giving speeches and also conducting himself the way that he's consistently represented as as a 437 00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.440 young adult in social gatherings, right, he always wants to be seen as 438 00:35:38.599 --> 00:35:45.480 a clever person who has who is well informed. Right. That seems to 439 00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:51.119 be consistent. Again, that's one of those consistent things that does carry over 440 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:55.679 throughout your life. You know, the usually the quiet kid in school is 441 00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:00.159 you know, remains that reserved person later on. That kind of thing. 442 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:05.079 It happens a lot. Some people do change. But I mean that's a 443 00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:07.360 very general thing. A lot of other stuff is in flux though, because 444 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:13.920 again this is still a young person not quite with a handle on who they 445 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:16.960 want to be exactly. You know, if you take it at face value 446 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:22.480 that he goes to the Soviet Union thinking he's going to find much much better 447 00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:29.559 situations there and then seems to become disillusioned with that from what we can tell. 448 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:31.519 You know, Okay, this is not the right way to go now, 449 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:37.079 I want to leave. You know, these are the kind of things 450 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.440 that somebody who is not quite as well informed as they think, they are 451 00:36:43.039 --> 00:36:47.039 searching for that and learning through those experiences, right, So, I mean 452 00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:51.559 that's another way to look at him throughout this. And again we're not getting 453 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:53.320 to the Hey, he wanted to make his mark in history by becoming an 454 00:36:53.360 --> 00:36:59.320 assassin. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the guy wanted 455 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:04.119 to be better informed than others around him, again in the micro and the 456 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:12.440 macro, right, And it's just that's an interesting characteristic good which is really 457 00:37:12.599 --> 00:37:15.280 quite unusual. I mean, he was quite a unique character. Now that 458 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:21.840 doesn't make him make him, you know, easy to deal with sometimes, 459 00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:25.239 because people who are searching for something and thinking, you know, that they're 460 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:29.519 smarter or that they're trying to solve a problem that nobody else. You know, 461 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:35.280 they don't usually fit well into the system, right. You know this, 462 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.519 you don't do well and into the establishment. You don't do well in 463 00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:44.880 academia. You know, you're constantly knocking things over, right, Well, 464 00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:49.599 that would be Oswald. So, uh, you know, he was kind 465 00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:52.159 of destined not to fit in the system, if you will. Unfortunately, 466 00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:59.320 but even from that regard, you know, those people are not you know, 467 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:05.000 they're around us. Uh, they're they're kind of jousting with the system, 468 00:38:05.079 --> 00:38:07.960 which is what he was doing. And and if you if you agreed 469 00:38:08.039 --> 00:38:12.920 with him that there were problems like that that need to be addressed, you 470 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.000 know, you could have people relay having great conversations with him, right, 471 00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:21.400 you know, very high level conversations. If you wouldn't accept that, and 472 00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:23.880 you wouldn't admit it, he was just plain ass I mean, he was 473 00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:30.159 obnoxious, you know, so because you're going to keep accept that. Yeah, 474 00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:35.400 And there's always looked a hierarchy, uh emerges among outsiders as well. 475 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:40.119 Right, So when you have the people that are clearly not establishment friendly and 476 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:45.519 they get together, a hierarchy always does emerge. And he didn't seem to 477 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:51.599 be from what I can tell from his actions. It didn't appear to me 478 00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:55.639 as though he wanted to be the leader, so to speak. There are 479 00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:00.480 people that want to be the leader. I alone have all the great ideas, 480 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:04.360 right, but some people do present him in that way that that was 481 00:39:04.400 --> 00:39:07.679 part of the problem, is that he thought only his ideas counted, et 482 00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:10.440 cetera. And that is the push and pull that you'll get from somebody who 483 00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:15.760 doesn't quite fit with the establishment people. But simultaneously he's going to butt heads 484 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:21.360 with people who really do want to be the leader, you know, who 485 00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:25.440 want to be the seminole figure in a movement, et cetera. If he 486 00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:28.760 was trying for that, he didn't do a very good job of it. 487 00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:30.719 Although some people would argue with me, well, that was what the whole 488 00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:36.400 play was regarding I'm representing the Fair Play for Cuba committee. But he never 489 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:37.679 said he was the head of it. He said he was the treasurer. 490 00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:42.920 You know what I'm saying. He good catch, Yeah, absolutely, I'm 491 00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.000 just a member here. Okay, go talk to that guy right who didn't 492 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:50.679 exist, mister Hydale. He's the one that's running it. And I again, 493 00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:54.679 I've been reading the and Osla was great. He gave all these details. 494 00:39:54.679 --> 00:39:59.800 So Hydeale's running it. He calls people and sets up meetings and does 495 00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:02.679 a it's where the meetings are going to be. And Oswald's giving the FBI 496 00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:08.119 all these details on meetings and people for what you might think of as semi 497 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:14.440 clandestine group, and and he just made it up out of whole cloth, 498 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.280 you know. But he no, he's not. He doesn't show any signs 499 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:23.159 of wanting to be. He wants to be, if anything, known as 500 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:28.519 a good follower. You know, I'm part of it. I want to 501 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:32.400 help move this thing forward. He wants to be part of the movement, 502 00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:40.159 if you will, you know, but not not the leader. He wants 503 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:45.360 to join groups, and interestingly enough, when he can't join groups when he 504 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:49.880 as a as a teenager, when he wrote the Young Socialist, it's kind 505 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:52.519 of like I want to join a group, right, and they're right back. 506 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:54.599 It's kind of like, well there's no group in your area, and 507 00:40:54.599 --> 00:40:58.719 it's like, well, could I start a group? Uh? You know, 508 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:02.440 he just wants to be part of something that fits him, and it's 509 00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:06.760 very hard for him to find that. You know, he thought he was 510 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:09.199 going to find it in Russia, didn't really find it. He thought he 511 00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:15.039 was going to find it in Cuba anyway. Well, right, And that's 512 00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:19.039 the interesting thing about taking a look at what Titibitz writes about him right where, 513 00:41:19.239 --> 00:41:22.679 you know, he gets there and initially it seems like oh okay, 514 00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:25.719 well where are you guys who really believe in the party and the actual you 515 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:30.559 know, communist movement and for the people and the workers United. Where is 516 00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:32.960 everybody? And they kind of go, dude, you know, we got 517 00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:37.239 we got jobs, we got stuff to do. You know, come on, 518 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:39.119 you really think that's the way it works. And he goes, yeah, 519 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:43.440 I thought that's the way it worked. Okay. But again, he 520 00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:45.440 wanted to join, He wanted to be part of He wanted to be, 521 00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:51.079 you know, not necessarily just everybody in the crowd. He wanted to stand 522 00:41:51.079 --> 00:41:55.320 out a little bit, but not so much that I'm the leader with the 523 00:41:55.320 --> 00:42:00.079 great ideas. Again, seeking to be part of something and seeking to be 524 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:02.880 part of a greater whole, a little bit, a little bit better. 525 00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:07.559 You know, how do I put this? I don't want to own the 526 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:10.800 store, but I want to be a manager at least, you know that 527 00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:15.880 kind of thing. Right. It's like that, that's the way he viewed 528 00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:20.480 these groups, these political groups, these social movements. I don't necessarily want 529 00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:23.639 to be in charge, but I want to have a little bit better of 530 00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:30.400 a spot than just your card carrying member. Right. You look at the 531 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:32.400 letters that he writes them. He writes a letter and says, you know, 532 00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:36.920 I have some photography skills. Could I help you work on your newsletter? 533 00:42:37.599 --> 00:42:42.760 I you know, I'd be happy to work in the office, you 534 00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:49.719 know. So he does volunteer his services, not you know, not as 535 00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.960 a not as a like, oh I want to run the place, or 536 00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.199 I want to be but it's kind of like I just want to in some 537 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.960 ways. It's interesting that we're talking about him in guards to him being a 538 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:06.239 joiner, which is to premise that everybody rejects. Right, yeah, well 539 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:09.840 that's why I'm doing it though, because what is the the the primary thing 540 00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:15.320 here, right if you're a Warrant Commission adherent, your your whole idea is 541 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:19.480 he's a lone nut, a lone nut, a guy who couldn't fit in, 542 00:43:19.639 --> 00:43:22.360 couldn't socialize that, and they use a lot of that. See now, 543 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:27.360 now here we go, is this us coloring it the wrong way or 544 00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:30.079 we saying, hey, look he's trying to be a joiner, uh you 545 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:36.199 know, and and and this because we want to be contrary to you know, 546 00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.360 contrary excuse me, I'm not going for the British thing. We want 547 00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:42.519 to be contrary to the idea that he's a lone nut. Is that really 548 00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:47.920 our prejudice pushing it that way, because he does wind up ultimately quite a 549 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:52.599 bit seeming to not have friends because of some of the personality quirks that you 550 00:43:52.719 --> 00:43:57.119 just talked about, where you know, he's kind of a jerk when when 551 00:43:57.159 --> 00:44:01.519 when you can't acknowledge him enough in certain social settings, he can become obnoxious. 552 00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:09.760 Even so, he ends up sort of in a Loane nut position because 553 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:13.320 he doesn't have a lot of friends. He's not making you know, he's 554 00:44:13.320 --> 00:44:19.679 not hooking up with the groups, but he's trying to so. Well. 555 00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:22.199 For example, when he when he goes to New Orleans to look for work, 556 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:28.159 the first thing he does is family networking, and he's serious about it. 557 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:32.360 He starts looking up using the Yellow Pages. He starts contacting cousins and 558 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:37.159 aunts and uncles. He wants to, you know, go talk family history. 559 00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:43.639 You know so. But but again, at another point in time, 560 00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:47.559 like when he's just back in Dallas for Mexico, you know, what are 561 00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:52.000 the priorities. First he needs to find a job. Well, it's fair 562 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:55.719 to say that he doesn't socialize well with guys at work. That's just it's 563 00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:00.320 not the way it is, okay, But you and again, I know, 564 00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:05.880 we don't necessarily want to accept some of this. But he gets along 565 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:09.679 reasonably well with Michael Payne. He goes to meetings with Michael Payne, he 566 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:15.079 meets Michael Payne's friends, right, you know, but at this time his 567 00:45:15.159 --> 00:45:20.280 wife is just having a new baby. She's not living with you know, 568 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:24.639 looking at the circumstances, he's said, he's not in a position to even 569 00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:30.039 if he wanted to. There's nobody around to hang with that he knows, 570 00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:32.760 he's kind of like just back in a new environment. Well, frankly, 571 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:37.480 not for him personally, but given the climate of the time, some of 572 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:43.239 the school book depository workers are I mean, let's just face it, they're 573 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:47.599 black and black and white people being super friendly in certain parts of the South 574 00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:52.599 might not have been acceptable, not necessarily from his end, because he did 575 00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:54.679 seem to, according to what he wrote, and according to things he said, 576 00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:59.239 had a rather progressive view of that. He wasn't all about you know, 577 00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:01.320 hey, I'm a white and I'm separate. He didn't believe in that 578 00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:07.760 crap. But given the climate of the time, maybe black friends wasn't something 579 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.480 that was easily gotten at the school book depository form So he might have been 580 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:15.639 disqualified based on the circumstance, not for his actions. Same time, though 581 00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:20.480 he's in that rooming house and all accounts that I ever got from that, 582 00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.440 I mean, maybe I'm misinformed. He didn't really socialize at the rooming house, 583 00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:28.679 and there's opportunities there, right, people coming and going, the other 584 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:31.599 residents, so on and so forth. He wasn't a bad guy or a 585 00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:36.440 problematic there at all. Yeah, Oh he wasn't. And he wasn't really 586 00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:39.760 a handshaker or whatever. Yeah, but I wanted to get back to a 587 00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:45.079 point that you made just a little bit earlier. Are we putting him when 588 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:47.119 we are we looking at him through a lens? Well, I guess the 589 00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:52.920 point is the way it has to be treated is again its point counterpoint. 590 00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:58.400 You when you're writing history, you call out something, it's kind of like, 591 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.639 this is a view, Okay, this is the warrant commission view. 592 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:07.119 What supports it? What doesn't support it? This is the conspiracy view or 593 00:47:07.239 --> 00:47:12.960 skeptic view. What's the point? There's no The only way to avoid looking 594 00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:16.239 through a lens is to look through different lenses and beat them against each other, 595 00:47:16.840 --> 00:47:23.159 point counterpoint. That's that's the challenge that's the methodology. So I know 596 00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:27.760 in our conversation it might sound that way, but when I write about it, 597 00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:31.800 you can't get away with that. You have to offer up each lens 598 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:36.159 and say, what do we see at this point in time? Does it 599 00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:38.920 support that lens or does it not? Now I use the term view, 600 00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:43.559 you know what, what's the warrant commission view? What's he doing now? 601 00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.000 Does it fit? What's the skeptical view? Does it fit? What's for 602 00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:52.119 that matter, what's the oslole view? You know, what is he doing? 603 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.519 Is it? Is it anomalous? You know? Is this consistent? 604 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:00.320 Is he doing what he has said before it? You know? So that's 605 00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:05.400 the only way to deal with the risk of cherry picking. I think. 606 00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:07.840 Well, I think the other thing to understand is that, you know, 607 00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.480 just because he has a certain desired result for certain things doesn't mean that he 608 00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:17.960 attained that. And you know, and is this an attack on him, 609 00:48:19.039 --> 00:48:20.960 like, look at him, he's a loser. No, I'm not trying 610 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:22.760 to do that. What I'm trying to say is you might try a bunch 611 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:27.800 of things and you might not be successful because why early in life you're not 612 00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.079 exactly informed as to how this works. So well. Like I said, 613 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:35.199 he goes to the Soviet Union with the idea, seemingly based on his actions, 614 00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.000 that he's going to find a whole bunch of people to unite with. 615 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:42.880 And meanwhile, at best he was a curiosity because he's a foreigner, you 616 00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:46.159 know. And that's the way that worked out. He didn't end up with 617 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:50.199 that all of a sudden, I'm going to be famous and have loads of 618 00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:53.960 friends, and it didn't quite work that way. You know. Well, 619 00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:58.719 I think that you brought up on another and this is something else you can 620 00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:04.000 call out as a long time personality characteristic, like I did with boredom, 621 00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:07.360 and I would think of it as a reset mode. One of the things 622 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:15.239 that makes Oswald quite fascinating is he does not get defeated easily. If he 623 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:19.519 tries something and it's not working out or he's not satisfied, it's like he 624 00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:25.079 resets and he can do where lots of people would just get depressed or you 625 00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:29.960 know, lose it, you know, if they fail. Then he just 626 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:35.280 resets and goes back again. It's kind of like before after he came back 627 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:40.159 to the US, he had separated from Marina. By my count, at 628 00:49:40.280 --> 00:49:45.280 least five times before they move to New Orleans. He leaves her an apartment, 629 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:51.199 goes to work somewhere else. Okay, she moves away, goes to 630 00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:58.119 say with friends. You know, they literally separate, and but then he 631 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.719 resets. He goes back into ana family mode and goes and hunts her up 632 00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:07.039 and pleads with her, and they get back together again. Which is one 633 00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:12.239 of the things I find quite fascinating because that's exactly what he did. On 634 00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:17.719 November twenty first, he goes after he's gone to Mexico City, and this 635 00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:23.880 is kind of like this, this attempt, this plan, whatever doesn't work 636 00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:29.519 out for him. He comes comes back to Dallas. Okay, first thing 637 00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:31.400 he starts to do. He starts looking for a job. There is just 638 00:50:31.559 --> 00:50:36.280 no doubt about that. It's in the records. It's in the Texas State 639 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:42.159 Employment Commission records. He starts looking for a job. He's resetting, and 640 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:45.840 then finally he's you know, trying to stay with Marina. She's pregnant, 641 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:52.519 you know, but this recently is the twenty first he goes to her and 642 00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.039 says, you know, desperately pleading with her, which has done before, 643 00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:59.440 move back in with me. I want us to be a family. This 644 00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:02.159 and that, and she says, look, you know, got a brand 645 00:51:02.159 --> 00:51:06.519 new baby and a very young child, and this lady here has is a 646 00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:10.239 washing machine. I will move back in with you and we'll be together again 647 00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:14.920 as soon as you make enough money to get me a washing machine. And 648 00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:19.960 Oswall says, okay. You know, it's a classic reset for Oswald. 649 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:22.039 I'm not saying this is a good, bad, or different, but you 650 00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:29.239 see it again and again and again because he does have he's not defeated easily, 651 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:35.119 and the Warrant Commission view has him defeated, right right, I mean 652 00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:40.760 perpetually defeated with Oswald. It's like Oswald always has a plan B, or 653 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:45.360 he'll come up with a plan B. He's it's just when he learns that 654 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.239 he's made a terrible mistake, like in Russia, it's like, well, 655 00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:53.800 okay, I'll just go back to the US. Okay, that's not going 656 00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:58.480 to be easy to do. And he wrestles with that for two years to 657 00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:01.000 get the US to let him back in. Right. You know, quite 658 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:07.320 frankly, he was better off in Russia financially, in every other respect than 659 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:13.880 he ever would be back in the United States. But nope, but that 660 00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:15.400 didn't get to the goal. See, that's the thing is that, Okay, 661 00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:19.000 I didn't achieve my goal. He doesn't go, well, let me 662 00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.840 change my goal. He goes, all right, let's regroup, try this 663 00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:25.639 again. You know, clearly it seemed to me as though he wanted to 664 00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:30.239 have his family together. And you know, I think that's a real thing 665 00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:34.320 that is demonstrated by his actions and his words. I mean, I think 666 00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:37.360 it's consistent there. He wanted to put it together with her. Now, 667 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:39.880 of course, the warrant commission contention is, once he knew that wasn't going 668 00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:43.599 to happen, he said, to hell with it, I'm gonna go do 669 00:52:43.679 --> 00:52:47.000 this. But he never said to hell with it otherwise. I mean, 670 00:52:47.000 --> 00:52:51.519 that would be the first time, right, that would be a true anomaly, 671 00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:55.039 that would be truly inconsistent. That is the inconsistency. Truthfully, this 672 00:52:55.119 --> 00:52:59.000 whole idea that Okay, so now he left his wedding ring and his money 673 00:52:59.039 --> 00:53:00.519 and this and that, and he gave up. This is his surrender. 674 00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:06.400 That's their proof, right, But it is totally inconsistent with what we've seen 675 00:53:06.440 --> 00:53:10.800 before. And this is a character trait again, not just in the last 676 00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:15.519 couple of years, last couple of days. This is something that seems to 677 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:20.280 have carried over because what happens, things change. I'm gonna roll with him, 678 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.719 I'm gonna go out this a different way, right, I mean that 679 00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:27.360 just seems to me. And even to that extent, how is he defeated. 680 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:30.400 I've wrestled with that. Okay, he can still go visit or anytime 681 00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:34.079 he wants to, or on the weekends. He's still got a job. 682 00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:37.440 He didn't lose his job. He's lost his job before, right and during 683 00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:43.400 one of these resets that would be And has he been depressed before? He 684 00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:47.039 was depressed? Actually, Reen and Ruth Payne said when he lost his job 685 00:53:47.079 --> 00:53:52.519 in New Orleans, he really was depressed. But he just he you know, 686 00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:57.880 so in on November twenty first, all he's really heard is Okay, 687 00:53:58.239 --> 00:54:00.960 we can't move together right now. You just need to keep working and make 688 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:06.039 some money and buy me a orsh machine, get an apartment. How is 689 00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:09.920 that defeated? You know, because I didn't get my way. This like 690 00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:15.800 instant suddenly, this is a defeat like nothing he's ever suffered before. Oswell 691 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:21.679 is defeated over and over again, right, right, and again, that's 692 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:23.559 not the point and that's the other thing, right, he's a continuous loser. 693 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:28.360 He's a continuous loser. Well, he doesn't seem to be, because 694 00:54:29.039 --> 00:54:31.880 you know, he did accomplish parts of his goals as he went. I 695 00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:37.760 mean, it wasn't an easy thing to get himself to in a position where 696 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:40.840 he was going to be able to live in Minsk. Right, that was 697 00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:44.320 something they tried to deny him. And we could go over that too. 698 00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.039 That's a weird sort of thing with the slashing, the wrists and all that, 699 00:54:47.159 --> 00:54:51.360 you know. I mean, but either way, it's like, let 700 00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:54.079 me come up with another solution. It might be a little bit ill advised 701 00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:59.760 on occasion, but he comes up. There is a sense of drama with 702 00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:01.840 off. Well yeah, okay, let's let's get their attention. I mean, 703 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:07.320 even in Mexico City, he shifts from one mode to the other. 704 00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:12.800 He will shift from being pleasant and okay whatever. And if he doesn't get 705 00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:15.679 away, does he does he have a plan B that involves some drama? 706 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:20.599 Yeah? Does it always work? Sometimes it works like in Russia, right, 707 00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:23.679 I mean, you know most I mean it doesn't work when he gets 708 00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:28.800 kicked out of both consulates in Mexico City, and you know, and from 709 00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:30.599 the story when he's getting resistance. I mean, at one point he shows 710 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:34.039 up at one of the consulates and puts a gun on the desk. I 711 00:55:34.039 --> 00:55:38.239 mean, you know, if that is to be believed, you know that 712 00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:43.239 that's kind of consistent with the all right, I gotta step up here and 713 00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:46.880 do something a little outside the box. I'm going to continue to you know. 714 00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:50.559 So this is a continuous push. This isn't like, well they told 715 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:54.159 me, no, I'm going to go away. So no matter where you 716 00:55:55.000 --> 00:55:59.039 meet him in the story here, right, you got a guy who is 717 00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:02.599 see, not easily discouraged, I would say, you know, yeah, 718 00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:07.360 and he never considers himself a loser. You know, Like I said the 719 00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:09.480 quote I gave earlier, it's kind of like I'm looking for it and I 720 00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:14.320 may not find it. I probably won't find it. But there's never any 721 00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:17.760 sign that like I'm going to give up. You know. It's it's me 722 00:56:17.960 --> 00:56:22.400 looking for what I want to find, you know. So there's no sign 723 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:28.440 that he ever considers that he's a loser, right, And how they can 724 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.360 paint him that way, you know, he might be and other you know, 725 00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:37.119 given the criteria and standards for other people. Yeah, you can paint 726 00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:40.280 him that way. But we all know your view of yourself as a loser 727 00:56:40.360 --> 00:56:45.360 is your view, right, you know, unless your other driven. And 728 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.840 there's no sign that Oswea was other driven. Well, and there's many many 729 00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:52.679 guys who have trouble with their you know, especially at that age, with 730 00:56:52.719 --> 00:56:55.559 their marriage, with their jobs, with their you know what I'm saying, 731 00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:59.599 and a lot of them do wind up falling into a pattern of sort of 732 00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:00.920 surrend where it's like, look, I'm just going to get a hold of 733 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:05.280 this one little thing and I'm just going to settle into it whatever it is, 734 00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.840 and they accept it. That is not the dynamic I see here, 735 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:14.360 you know, where he's constantly pushing for Again, I think he wanted to 736 00:57:14.519 --> 00:57:17.079 settle his family down. He did seem to care about that, cared about 737 00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:22.199 their futures, you know, to some degree. Some people would say, 738 00:57:22.199 --> 00:57:23.360 well, he was self centered, he was off on his adventures and this, 739 00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:27.440 okay, fine, But at the end of the day, he thought 740 00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:31.880 that that was a good thing he was doing, even going and involving himself 741 00:57:31.880 --> 00:57:35.880 and all these things, because why, he wanted to make the world a 742 00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:38.000 better place. Even Fraser says this, you know, in some way or 743 00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:43.880 other. He wants to make things better for his children. Right, this 744 00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:45.920 is part of the thought This is not the thought process as somebody who was 745 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:51.920 surrendered, you know what I mean. This is a good way to judge 746 00:57:51.960 --> 00:57:55.079 that, and I hope people will reject it because they don't fit their mode. 747 00:57:55.199 --> 00:58:04.360 Like okay, but one interesting thing to do. May Brussel collected Oswell's 748 00:58:04.440 --> 00:58:07.480 last words in other words, conversations that he had with his brother, with 749 00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:13.320 Marina, his mother, other people after he was in custody, and one 750 00:58:13.360 --> 00:58:17.159 of the fast units search Forard online in may Brussels, Oswell's last words and 751 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:22.679 some of those dialogues are just fascinating and I do not think they are made 752 00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:25.679 up. I mean, yeah, Oswell can do some drama. The fascinating 753 00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:30.960 thing is there's no drama in them. He's talking. In one exchange, 754 00:58:31.000 --> 00:58:36.960 he's talking about you know, you know June needs new shoes. Now you 755 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:39.440 make sure that you get them. This is there's there's not the drama. 756 00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:43.760 You put me in jail after that. I would show you drama, but 757 00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:49.239 he's just like matter of fact, he doesn't believe this. I will all 758 00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:52.800 go out straight out. He does not believe that they're gonna he didn't do 759 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:57.800 this, he didn't kill the president. They're not going to convict him of 760 00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:01.760 it. That this is just not that you might not lie about a few 761 00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:06.880 things. Let's let's make that straightforward. But if you look at those dialogues, 762 00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:09.400 it's kind of like this is not a guy who's is giving up because 763 00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:15.559 he knows he's he's dead meat. That's not the way he's talking. And 764 00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:21.679 it's not dramatic either, right, just very straightforward. Yeah, what is 765 00:59:21.679 --> 00:59:28.159 it? Radical? Yeah, that's it? Got org under Ratville. I'll 766 00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:31.920 give a link in the show notes as well, actually has this compilation of 767 00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:36.719 what what May Brussell came up with the last words of Lee Harvey Oswald. 768 00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:40.599 It's literally called that compiled by May Brussel, and she starts with the assassination 769 00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:45.800 and then yeah, and then goes into it, right, what what happens? 770 00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:51.320 Okay arrest at the Texas Theater and all of that, and begins quoting 771 00:59:51.400 --> 00:59:58.039 him at what eleven? No, wait, excuse me, and goes through 772 00:59:58.079 --> 01:00:00.519 it and it's actually really I remember this. I haven't thought about this in 773 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:05.039 some years. This is way back. You know, May hasn't been with 774 01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:09.360 us in several years, so I don't even remember when this was first like 775 01:00:09.639 --> 01:00:15.800 compiled, but oh it was back to the seventies. Let's irving. Well, 776 01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:20.119 they have a reference here from a book in nineteen seventy eight, so 777 01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:25.679 yeah, but it is it's rather interesting. Oh from the People's Almanac number 778 01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:30.679 two. Yeah, okay, anyway, no fascinating peace and that. That's 779 01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:35.480 some of the things that hippies did in the seventies. You probably wouldn't remember 780 01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:38.519 it, chuck, thank you, Yeah, baby, yeah, the People's 781 01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:42.639 this and that. But uh, okay, well, look, we have 782 01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:45.559 spent almost an hour on this, just batting it back and forth, and 783 01:00:45.960 --> 01:00:49.760 I really appreciate it. I know it's a little bit probably a little bit 784 01:00:50.400 --> 01:00:52.639 tiring for you to have to bat it back and forth with somebody like me. 785 01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:55.800 But I think all of these points of interest that I brought up, 786 01:00:55.880 --> 01:01:02.079 the public perception, how it's been present and uh and and indeed how it's 787 01:01:02.199 --> 01:01:09.159 uh, whether intentionally or not, not been explored. Honestly, to me, 788 01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:15.760 it's always been with these preset agendas. And one thing I know about 789 01:01:15.039 --> 01:01:19.400 the way that you're gonna put this together is it's not about a preset agenda. 790 01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:23.159 Here it's really you know, it's not about let me try and fit 791 01:01:24.000 --> 01:01:31.320 this character into a mold that I've decided already without exploring. I think you're 792 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:37.119 gonna You're gonna finally give us a very unique perspective on this character. Lee 793 01:01:37.239 --> 01:01:42.440 RB. Oswald And uh, you know you mentioned to me that maybe you 794 01:01:42.480 --> 01:01:45.719 know it was gonna be a monograph and all, that it might be book 795 01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:49.079 length. Now, what are your thoughts on that? It is definitely book 796 01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:52.840 length now and it will it will be published in one form or the other. 797 01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:55.519 I think, yeah, it's uh, it's now it's closing out. 798 01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:59.880 The first part of it is closing out at about one hundred and sixty page 799 01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:07.639 is of just the Oswell study, because we're talking about presenting it in two 800 01:02:07.719 --> 01:02:13.000 sets. One is this is the Oswell in three dimensions, and then a 801 01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:16.400 second more speculative part like we just said, Oswald always had a Plan B 802 01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:22.920 in mind, you know, And did Oswell have a working Plan B that 803 01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:27.559 week at that time? Was there something else going through the back of his 804 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:32.000 head that might explain some of his Some of us you've got to got to 805 01:02:32.039 --> 01:02:37.679 accept that there's some strange things that he did on the day of the assassination 806 01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:42.360 regardless, Uh, not that that implied that he was involved with shooting, 807 01:02:42.400 --> 01:02:45.639 but it's just kind of like, why did he do that? Was? 808 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:49.079 Did he have any concerns? You know? Why did he go back and 809 01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:52.880 get his pistol? Was it? Was it as simple as he thought? 810 01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:57.280 You know that I've been in Russia, I worked in the building. They're 811 01:02:57.280 --> 01:02:59.760 going to come after me and they'll kill me. I don't know, but 812 01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:04.480 we may may address that too. But yeah, I think Chuck to kind 813 01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:07.679 of wrap it up. I think, what's what surprised me so far? 814 01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:13.280 And treating it this well, it's it's brought out some several things that I 815 01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:16.440 never thought of it before, and I always enjoy that. It's kind of 816 01:03:16.480 --> 01:03:21.639 like, you know, I've written about this before, I wrote about it. 817 01:03:21.760 --> 01:03:25.119 Now I realized whether it superficially that, but now that I'm doing the 818 01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:32.039 point point counterpoint thing, it's it's suggesting some interpretations and some explanations that frankly, 819 01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:37.239 had not occurred to me at all, not just just not just involving 820 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:42.400 Oswald. You know, why why did Oswell say certain things at certain times? 821 01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:45.639 Why did Marina say certain things at certain times? What? What are 822 01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:50.480 some of the is there a logical explanation for some of the things that we've 823 01:03:50.480 --> 01:03:57.360 always considered either mysterious or conspiratorial And you know, operating at a little deeper 824 01:03:57.480 --> 01:04:00.599 level allows me to say, yeah, this could have been an explanation. 825 01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:06.360 I can't guarantee it, but in context, this might explain this happenings at 826 01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:11.639 this time. All as we talk. All you know, situational context is 827 01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:15.440 always the key. People people do different things at different times because of this 828 01:04:15.559 --> 01:04:19.880 situation they're in right, Well, what you know exactly what is and and 829 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:24.559 you know, like you brought up what was the primary concern at the time, 830 01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:28.159 Like what is the priority at a certain point, like when he's doing 831 01:04:28.199 --> 01:04:30.960 certain things. Obviously he needs a job, he needs to get things rolling, 832 01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:35.480 he needs These are realistic ways of looking at it and necessary. Uh. 833 01:04:35.639 --> 01:04:39.880 We got a little praise from the live chat room about this conversation and 834 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:43.440 how it's a good way to re examine things. In fairness to you, 835 01:04:43.519 --> 01:04:45.360 saying that you had written about this, you know, in a superficial manner 836 01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:49.320 in the past. In total fairness to you, you know, you were 837 01:04:49.360 --> 01:04:55.880 working with less information then you have access to today. When you when you 838 01:04:55.960 --> 01:04:59.559 first wrote this. You know, when you first wrote about Lee Oswald and 839 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:02.880 gave your version of a sort of a pseudobiography at some point, right, 840 01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:08.960 and that wasn't your main focus. And you know what, again, a 841 01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:12.800 little bit of time, a little bit of better information comes around, a 842 01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:16.239 little bit of maybe certain things that were mysterious or not so mysterious now And 843 01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:19.840 we didn't even really get into the Lopez thing too much. But again, 844 01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:26.559 there's a lot of ways to go at this and give an honest view of 845 01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:30.800 this interesting historical character. So I urge you to go to Larry Danshancock dot 846 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:35.840 com. You'll, I'm sure give us updates on when this is coming. 847 01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:41.679 I look forward to it for sure, and I think it's going to be 848 01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:45.519 really interesting no matter how or where it gets published. But I'm sure you'll 849 01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:48.119 inform people as to when it's actually coming. Do you have a target date 850 01:05:48.199 --> 01:05:53.880 for when you might be completing work on this, Well, I think certainly 851 01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:58.239 it needs to do peer it needs peer review, and normally a peer review 852 01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:04.079 process would take a good you know, ninety days to let people look at 853 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:10.000 it and look for holes in the facts or holes in the logic. At 854 01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:14.599 that point in time, it's going to have to go through heavy edit because 855 01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:20.400 quite frankly, I don't write nearly as grammatically as I should. You know, 856 01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:25.960 that kind of edit. So if assuming my friend Rix, who is 857 01:06:26.000 --> 01:06:29.559 one of the most vicious editors in the world, edits it, that could 858 01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:32.159 well be another three months, you know, by the end of the year. 859 01:06:32.360 --> 01:06:36.079 I would hope if we'd go through the whole cycle, so by the 860 01:06:36.159 --> 01:06:42.480 end of twenty twenty four we should see this emerge and look, I look 861 01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:45.400 forward to it. Did you get a working title or are we still working 862 01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:50.039 with the working title or have we settled yet We're still doing the working title, 863 01:06:50.039 --> 01:06:55.239 the working title still Oswald in three Dimensions, Oswald in three Dimensions, 864 01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:59.840 which again you also talked about at Lancer this past year. If people had 865 01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:03.639 seen that, I think that's going to become available shortly online for people that 866 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:08.519 you know didn't sign up for the conference pretty soon. But if not, 867 01:07:08.719 --> 01:07:12.360 I know that you spoke about it there, and you spoke about a great 868 01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:16.639 deal of taking a look back at certain things that were assumed, let's say, 869 01:07:17.119 --> 01:07:20.760 by the research community earlier on. And I really appreciated the stuff that 870 01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:26.519 you discussed at Lancer, But I appreciate all Larry Hancock's work and recommend all 871 01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:30.280 of it, so I can't wait to see how this looks. Obviously, 872 01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:34.719 Also, if you're interested in the Kennedy assassination, recommend Tipping Point as well 873 01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:39.920 as someone would have talked. Again, keep in mind, you know in 874 01:07:40.000 --> 01:07:45.599 context these things are written a little earlier. This Three Dimensions of Oswald could 875 01:07:45.639 --> 01:07:49.719 be well, very very different and new. So I'm looking forward to it, 876 01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:54.039 Larry, and I hope everybody out there is as well. Thanks for 877 01:07:54.079 --> 01:07:58.480 doing this with me. Oh you then enjoy it anyway. Guys, no 878 01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:30.119 matter who you are, where you are, when you are h revelation through 879 01:08:30.199 --> 01:08:32.640 conversation. If you use expressed by callers school, is there anyone else who 880 01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:35.319 happens to get on the air of jelly dot com? Do not necessarily replied 881 01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:39.520 he us jelly dot com or check go chilly, and we are not responsible 882 01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:50.840 for any stupidity which might issue. Thank you. Wallsendo dot dot whoa steward 883 01:08:51.800 --> 01:09:00.560 the stock market, Wall three window dott Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're 884 01:09:00.560 --> 01:09:04.359 not in deep enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall Street, Windows 885 01:09:04.399 --> 01:09:10.039 on com do com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the War State 886 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:15.000 understood these trends professionally for many years, and now he gives you the benefit 887 01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:21.680 of his knowledge. Wall st dot com. Go there, now, go 888 01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:28.279 there, Now, Go there now. In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes 889 01:09:28.319 --> 01:09:33.840 and Tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations 890 01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:40.000 and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In Denial rips the cover off 891 01:09:40.079 --> 01:09:43.600 many of them, using new files. It exposes things about the Bay of 892 01:09:43.680 --> 01:09:46.760 Pigs that no one has ever written about before. It shows why it really 893 01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:50.960 failed and why the United States did not learn from it. It also shows 894 01:09:50.960 --> 01:09:56.840 why other countries today are doing secret operations with more success. This is the 895 01:09:56.840 --> 01:10:00.720 book that puts what some want to deny into the light. In Denial, 896 01:10:01.119 --> 01:10:08.640 Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks Larryhncock. For more information, go to 897 01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:13.760 Larry hyphen Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon 898 01:10:13.840 --> 01:10:18.840 dot com in digital or physical dot Com radio network. Go ahead, call 899 01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:23.880 it about the Jay assassination right, Well, what do you want to know? 900 01:10:23.960 --> 01:10:28.920 Judy Baker's wild claim oswal girlfriends he knew Ruby and Barry answer weapons, 901 01:10:28.920 --> 01:10:30.800 Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make 902 01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:34.760 me a wagon. But okay, I'm the building and trying to prevent the 903 01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:38.880 murder of John Kennedy. Come on now has a real effort on the day 904 01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:45.000 of pay assassination claim. Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her 905 01:10:45.039 --> 01:10:47.760 own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy of a book where 906 01:10:47.920 --> 01:10:54.039 Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case to get 907 01:10:54.119 --> 01:10:58.760 at well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith Barry Baker in 908 01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:02.800 her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting 909 01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:08.720 doctor Brown at k I A s JFK at aol dot com. It's a 910 01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:14.279 fun book and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Juda's very 911 01:11:14.319 --> 01:11:18.359 Baker in her own words information. Uncle. Do you remember that time when 912 01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:25.000 Benjamin Fulford said that an Asian secret society was going to dispatch ninja's to take 913 01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:30.640 down the Illuminati? Oh that's interesting? Yeah? Yeah, did that ever 914 01:11:30.720 --> 01:11:34.279 work out too good? No? It didn't, did it? But here 915 01:11:34.319 --> 01:11:38.840 on o'ceelly dot com radio network, things work out a bit better. Don't 916 01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:45.960 they much better? Much is clear and understanding about the programs, the programs, 917 01:11:45.399 --> 01:11:50.600 how much clear? Getting live people into it. They really have a 918 01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:56.279 good conversation going much better, so much better scene. I say, forget 919 01:11:56.319 --> 01:12:00.039 Benjamin Fulford and his ninjas and listen to the o'ceelly dot com radio network. 920 01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:04.359 I agree, it's straight to the point, straight talk, and I like 921 01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:09.000 that idea. Oh, Cholley dot com. Do you like history? Real 922 01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:14.920 history that you were never taught in schools? Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs 923 01:12:14.960 --> 01:12:20.039 in nation Building in Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never 924 01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:26.079 seen before that'll open your eyes to events that led up to this. Why 925 01:12:26.239 --> 01:12:31.960 the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through 926 01:12:32.119 --> 01:12:39.119 nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot com. Why the 927 01:12:39.199 --> 01:12:44.319 Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson. The War State by Michael Swanson explains the 928 01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:47.840 great national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in the context of 929 01:12:47.880 --> 01:12:54.359 the times and reveals never before published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President 930 01:12:54.439 --> 01:12:58.560 Kennedy would not have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred years ago. 931 01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:02.000 His assassination place in the context of the Cold War and the rise of 932 01:13:02.039 --> 01:13:05.920 the national security state. Before World War II, the United States was a 933 01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:11.479 continental republic. In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower. 934 01:13:11.640 --> 01:13:15.960 Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that 935 01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:19.079 there were short range missiles on the island arn't with nuclear warheads that they could 936 01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:24.079 not destroy because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have led to 937 01:13:24.119 --> 01:13:28.359 a Third World War, and they wanted to go to war anyway. The 938 01:13:28.399 --> 01:13:32.119 War State by Michael Swanson reveals why and will show you what President Kennedy was 939 01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:38.359 up against. For more information, the Warstate dot com, Oh Chili dot 940 01:13:38.399 --> 01:14:54.600 com. Nuclear holocaust. You know what uranium is, right? I think 941 01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:59.119 called nuclear weapons and other things like lots of you know what uranium is right? 942 01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:03.239 Bad things things are done with uranium, including some bad things. Nuclear 943 01:15:03.279 --> 01:15:08.039 holocaust. You know what uranium is, right? I've been a brief nuclear 944 01:15:08.039 --> 01:15:12.239 holocaust. Is nuclear holocaust? You know what uranium is right? Next think 945 01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:15.479 called nuclear weapons and other things like blood. Say you know what uranium is 946 01:15:15.560 --> 01:15:20.840 right? Bad things things are done with uranium, including some bad things Nuclear 947 01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:28.880 Holocaust, nuclear Holoculear Holocaust, Nuclear Holocaust, Nuclear Holocaust, nuclear Hall