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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.

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I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now

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trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other

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victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway

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murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin
Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,

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a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media

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manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in

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crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to
mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and

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I'm Bill Thomas, and we're back
with our continuing coverage of a list because

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a Long Island serial killer. And
this is the third installment of ourtistcussion on

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the application for bail obviously denied for
Rex he remand the current suspect in the

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Long Island serial killing or goil Go
Beach four case. Bill, how are

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you feeling about this whole document?
So far. It's pretty interesting, right,

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It is pretty interesting, and I
find that if you know what you're

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looking for, it is fascinating to
see what's contained in the document and then

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what is not contained in the document. And as we discussed in our previous

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episode, these documents are not designed
to be a complete review of all of

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the evidence that's available to law enforcement
as the investigation is unfolded. They are

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merely enough to demonstrate the strength of
the case, but will not contain all

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of the information. As we talked
about in the Brian Coburger example, in

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the Idaho four case recently, and
in Delphi, these documents contain a substant

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ancial amount of information, but are
far from complete. They would perhaps be

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hundreds of pages in length if they
were to contain all of the evidence.

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We've seen some very odd comments over
the last few months in this and other

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cases where people are saying law enforcement
doesn't have this piece of evidence or that

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piece of evidence. You don't know
that, we cannot know that. It's

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not until a case is presented in
a court of law that you're really going

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to get a much more complete picture
of what law enforcement has. We have

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some information here. It is very
interesting. It's also interesting to read from

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other sources and to see what's not
contained in these documents, charging documents,

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or in this case, a presentation
of why they think suspect Rex Humans should

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be denied bail. So this is
really just enough information to assure a judge.

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Here's the evidence that we have against
and we do not think that he

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needs to be out on bail.
This is certainly not, as you said,

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the whole entire case against him.
The last two episodes we have dealt

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with the pages of this document.
It is a thirty two page document and

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it is just regarding bail application.
And we've gone through and done what I

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think we happen to do best,
which is I'm providing information and we're providing

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snarky at times color commentary. When
we left off last time, we were

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talking about the evidence presented by two
forensic labs. Now these forensic labs are

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unnamed in this bail application. They're
only designated as Forensic Laboratory Number one and

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Forensic Laboratory number two. But we
do have our theories as to who those

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labs might be. Bill, would
you like to spill our theory on forensic

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Lab one and two let's see how
the article unfolds, and as we go

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through the presentation all offer some thoughts
about who the labs might be. The

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only lab that's mentioned by name is
the Suffolk County Crime Laboratory, but the

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two other labs, which are clearly
outside labs and are also pretty evidently private

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labs, are mentioned. As you
said, number one and number two.

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I'll chime in here as we go
along and offer an educated gas as to

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who the labs might be. Okay, so we'll go ahead and start with

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forensic Lab number one. In or
about July twenty twenty two, Forensic Lab

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one was able to determine that each
of the aforementioned female hairs recovered on the

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three victims each belonged to a female
individual in metochondrial haplogroup K one C two,

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and that this female was not any
of the victims. Honor about July

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twenty one, twenty twenty two,
and undercover SCPD detective recovered eleven bottles from

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a trash receptacle that had been left
out for collection in front of the residence

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of defendant Rex A. Hureman.
The Seffitt County Crime Lab took swabs of

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said bottles, which were subsequently sent
to Forensic Lab one for DNA profiling.

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Based on these new submissions, Honor
about February twenty four, twenty twenty three,

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Forensic Lab one was able to conclude
that one of the DNA profiles generated

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from the aforementioned bottles taken from Defendit
Human's residence indicated a female individual belonging to

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mitochondrial haplogroup K one C two,
which is the same mitochondrial haplogroup as the

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female hairs recovered from the three victims. So what that means is the hairs

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that were recovered from those victims belongs
to a person, a female, who

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lives in the rex human residence and
has the same type of DNA bill.

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Based on all of that information,
you want to take a guess as to

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who Forensic Lab one probably is.
I believe that Forensic Lab one is likely.

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I'm not going to stake my life
on it, but I believe that

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this is likely authorm Labs. Here's
why I think that. In the description,

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it says Forensic Laboratory one applies DNA
techniques and here's the key part of

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the phrase. Direct genome sequencing in
difficult to solve forensic casework and the identification

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of human remains. If you read
that carefully, that comes very close to

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the way AUTHORM describes the work that
they do. That's not to say that

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there are not other excellent private labs, many of whom are people that we

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know that also do this kind of
work, but this language is really close

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to the kind of language that AUTHRAM
uses. We also know that AUTHRAM has

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contracts with the FBI, as do
other private labs, and with New York

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State, as do other private labs. I am fairly certain that this lab

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as described is AUTHRAM. Also note
that they talk about difficult to solve forensic

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cases and the identification of human remains, and those are the two key areas

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that AUTHRAM works in and they've excelled
in. I'm fairly certain this is AUTHRAM.

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It could be BODY or other labs, but my money is on AUTHRAM

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in this particular example. Now,
I think it's interesting you are reading an

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unredacted version of what I'm reading.
I'm reading from the New York Times,

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and in the New York Times that
description that you just quoted from has actually

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been redacted, So that's actually the
best that's the best indicator and that does

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sound to me a lot like Athram
as well. Let's move on to Forensic

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Lab two, and that actually is
a couple of footnotes associated with it.

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Once I'm done with that, then
you tell me your guest for Forensic Lab

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too. Forensic Lab two, Honor. About March twenty three, twenty twenty

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three, the SEFIC Kenny Crime Lab
requested Forensic Laboratory Number two, a lab

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specializing in forensic mitochondrial analysis, to
conduct additional independent analysis, Honor. About

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June twelve, twenty twenty three,
Forensic Lab two issued a report concluding that

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the DNA sample from the female recovered
from the bottles outside the residence of defendant

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hureman I E. Huerman's wife and
the female hair on amber Costello indicated that

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the mitochondrial DNA profiles are the same
at all compared positions common too and between

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samples, specifically at a rate that
would as per the m POP database.

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I'll explain what that is in a
minute. Exclude ninety nine point nine eight

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percent of the North American population from
the female hair on Castello. That's a

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heck of a number. Okay,
let me explain what the footnote is here

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It explains MPOP database. That's empop. M POP is shorthand for the European

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DNA Profile Group Mitochondrial DNA Population Database
on a mouthfall, that a mouthful.

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It is a web based collection of
human mitochondrial sequence data from various populations worldwide.

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The North American database includes twelve thousand, three hundred eighty six sequences of

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North American forensic significance. The second
footnote that goes right along with that goes

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with that number ninety nine point nine
eight percent of the North American population.

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This statistical analysis incorporates a ninety five
percent confidence level or margin of error,

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as the North American database does not
include every single DNA sequence of North American

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forensic significance, which would require the
typing of every individual in the population.

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And it says that they do have
a further exhibit which talks about the statistical

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reporting. I don't think we're going
to get into that because we are a

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true crime podcast and not a DNA
podcast, But basically the gist of that

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is they are ninety nine point nine
eight percent sure that the person who contributed

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the DNA on the bottles also contributed
the hair that was found on Amber Costello,

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and that is rex Huerman's wife,
correct, And I am fairly certain

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that Forensic Lab Number two is a
stray Out Labs, which was co founded

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by PhDs Ed Green and Kelly Harkins
Kincaide, both of whom I've spoken to

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at some length. They are considered
the finest cutting edge lab for hair analysis,

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and it's Ed Green who actually developed
this new technique of being able to

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extract mitochondrial DNA from the shaft of
hair. Hair is actually a dead product

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that I know. We don't think
about it in those terms. For years,

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the only way to extract DNA from
a hair sample is if we were

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lucky enough to have a piece of
hair that had a live root on it,

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the little bulb that's at the end
of the hair that's actually in your

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scalp. Otherwise, it was not
possible for decades to extract a workable DNA

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profile. Ed Green, working at
the University of California, was able to

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develop a technique which they've now rolled
out into this Astraya Labs, which is

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a private lab also based in California, has now developed technique where they can

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extract DNA which will result in a
testable profile from the actual shaft of hair.

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So forensic Laboratory number two, which
I feel even more strongly than I

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did about Forensic Lab number one.
I'm willing to bet this is Austraia for

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sure, because the cutting edge extraction
of DNA from hair is really the province

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right now of Austraia. Labs and
the FBI and this team are going to

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use the best people they can find
in the country or even the world,

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and that is Austraia in terms of
hair analysis of this type. Going back

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to this document, we have further
explanation on the forensic lab testing. Forensic

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Lab two then compared the profile associated
with the DNA sample from Hureman's wife to

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one of the two aforementioned female hairs
recovered on the remains of Miss Waterman,

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which also resulted in the conclusion that
the mitochondrial DNA profiles are the same at

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all compared positions common too and between
samples, especially at a rate that would,

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as per the MPOP database, exclude
ninety nine point six nine percent of

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the North American population from the hair
recovered on Miss Waterman based on the foregoing

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while ninety nine point nine eight percent
of the North American population can be excluded

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from the female hair on Costello and
ninety nine point six nine percent of the

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North American population are excluded from the
female hair on Waterman. It is significant

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that our h's wife cannot be excluded
from either. The female hairs were covered

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on the remains of Megan Waterman and
Amber Costello. As previously noted, defendant

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Hereman's wife was out of state at
the time of Miss Waterman and Miss Costello's

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disappearance and murders. Do you have
the last sentence of this as such?

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I do not have that. Okay, let me read that. Okay,

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there's one sentence that's been redacted from
the version that Kristen's looking at, which

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is actually very important and I'm not
sure why the New York Times is redacting

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this. We're going to try to
put up the unredacted version of this.

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In the show notes for these episodes, it reads as follows. As such,

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it is likely that the burlap tape, vehicles or other instrumentalities utilized in

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furtherance of these murders came from defendant
Human's residence, whereas wife also resides or

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was transferred from his clothing. To
be clear, the investigators have said,

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we don't think that human's wife is
involved in these murders. We think this

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is a transference issue. If you
think about tape, for example, or

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other items like that, it's possible
that if you placed a roll of tape

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on a table or counter, for
example, you could easily pick up contaminants

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that were on that flat surface.
And given the fact that this husband and

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wife lived in the same look location, placing that tape or moving that tape

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or the burlap or other materials could
easily result in transference from an object around

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the home from Huerman's clothing, and
that may result in his wife's hair ending

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up on the victim in this case. Twice in the Costello and Waterman attacks,

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there was female hair attached to these
women's bodies and they were able to

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trace it back. And then,
as you mentioned, Kristen, they confirm

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with the testing of the water bottles
acquired at the human home during the surreptitious

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removal of trash from the human home, that then confirms that missus Huerman's hair

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matches the DNA on those bottles,
and you have one hundred percent confirmation or

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close to it. That this is
the same person. Very interesting bits of

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information, and thank you for providing
that information that was redacted. I don't

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know why the New York Times would
redact that. It's interesting. They've made

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some odd choices. Maybe they're trying
not to highlight one person's guilt. Maybe.

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Anyway, we were able to find
an unredacted copy of the document and

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we may go with that because it
is available to the public. You're listening

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to Mind over Murder. We'll be
right back after this word from our sponsors.

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We're back here at Mind over Murder. The next subsection is male hair

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linked to definite Humorman. During the
initial examination of Miss Waterman's skeletal remains and

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the burlap materials to set that,
Kenny Crime Lab was also able to recover

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a male hair from the bottom of
the burlap used to about Miss Waterman by

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her killer Here and after male hair
on Waterman as an initial examination of said

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hair revealed Caucasian or European characteristics.
However, the hair was unsuitable for further

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DNA analysis at the time by the
Suffolk Canty Crime Lab. This hair was

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subsequently submitted for further DNA analysis Honor
about July thirty one, twenty twenty,

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Forensic Lab one was able to generate
a DNA profile for the hair recovered on

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the bottom of the waterman burlap.
Specifically, Forensic Lab one determined that this

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hair belonged to a male in mitochondrial
haplogroup V seven A. Following the discovery

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of the Chevrolet Avalanche, which was
registered to defendit Huerman and the investigation of

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Cellular Billion records and other items Honor, about January twenty six, twenty twenty

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three, a surveillance team observed and
recovered a pizza box thrown by defendant Huerman

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into a garbage can located in front
of three eighty five Fifth Avenue in Manhattan.

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And then there's an accompanying picture to
go along with that. They even

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get into a great deal of detail
with a picture of the trash can and

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then a picture of the pizza box
with what we used to call when I

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was a kid, pizza bones,
which are the various remnants of pizza.

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I saw a comment on one of
the discussion groups with a reminder for those

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of us that are involved in the
various activities, eat your pizza crests.

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I'm trying to figure out what his
pizza order is based on this and I

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can't figure it out. It's just
pretty bare bones there, Okay, So

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underneath the photo of the pizza box
we have this. The pizza box was

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sent to the Sethic Kenny Crime Lab
for analysis, where a swab was taken

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from the left of the pizza crest
Honor. About March twenty third, twenty

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twenty three. The sefic Kenny Crime
Lab sent the swab from the pizza crest

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abandoned by defendant human to Forensic Lab
number two, Honor. About April twenty

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eight, twenty twenty three. A
detective hand delivered from Forensic Lab one a

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portion of male hair on Waterman to
Forensic Lab two for testing Honor. About

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June twelve. Forensic Lab two was
able to determine, as to the male

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hair on Waterman and the swab from
the pizza crest, that the mitochond dana

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profiles are the same, specifically at
a rate that would, as per the

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00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:11,039
m POP database, exclude ninety nine
point nine six percent of the North American

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population from the male hair on waterman
based on the foregoing, while ninety nine

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point nine six percent of the North
American population, it can be excluded from

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the male hair on Waterman. It
is significant that defendant human cannot be excluded

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from the male hair recovered near the
bottom of the burlap utilized to restrain and

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transport Megan Waterman's naked and deceased body. Just going over a couple of the

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details here, you'll note that in
the early going of this case, which

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is about thirteen years ago, they
mentioned that they attempted to do testing at

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that point. They'll give you a
date, but when they talk about tests

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00:19:56,599 --> 00:19:59,799
being done at an earlier date,
they could be talking about as far back

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00:19:59,799 --> 00:20:07,519
as twenty ten. Professor ed Green
developed these new techniques for extracting usable DNA

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00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,920
profiles from hair in the ensuing thirteen
years, and this is where you see

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references in articles about the science catching
up to the evidence. This advanced hair

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testing is one of the things that's
absolutely key to identifying Humorman and his wife

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00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:37,400
in terms of her hair evidence being
there, putting them together and connecting them

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to the burlap and tape used to
restrain the women's bodies. This ties the

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two of them, the humans,
into these victims in a very significant way.

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And then finally we're at the last
section of this bail application. The

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subhead is arrest in search of Humorman, his residence and other locations Honor.

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About the evening of July thirteenth,
twenty twenty three, defendant rex A Hureman

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00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:08,720
was arrested by Suffokenny police officers.
Searches of his residence as well as other

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locations are currently ongoing. At the
time of his arrest, Definite Human had

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on his person the burner cell phone
number redacted, which was linked to the

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redacted email account and used to conduct
the online searches described above. Subsection penalties.

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00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:32,079
If convicted on the current charges,
Defendant rex A Hureman faces multiple sentences

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of life without parole. Final subhead
remand without bail is appropriate based on the

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series heinous nature of these offenses,
the strength of the people's case, the

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life incarceration the defendant faces upon conviction, the extreme measures this defendant took to

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00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,599
attempt to avoid apprehension for an extended
period of time, the recent sadistic and

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00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:03,000
child pornography searches, use of fictitious
names, email and cell phone, burner

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00:22:03,039 --> 00:22:08,839
accounts, online counter surveillance, and
his access to and history of possessing firearms.

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00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:14,039
The people believe that the only means
to ensure the defendants return to court

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00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,880
is to remand the defendant without bail. Signed Raymond A Tyrney District Attorney,

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00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:25,839
July fourteenth, twenty twenty three,
Suffolk County, New York. And some

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00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,759
of the articles that I've read recently, people have been wondering why they made

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00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:36,680
a move on Urroman at the time
they did. Now they lay out a

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number of reasons why they feel that
he should be remanded without bail, and

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00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:47,240
I think they make a good case
here. They also seemed to feel,

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00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,240
and it started to come out in
some of the reporting on the case since

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the time of his arrest, that
he was escalating again. He was in

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00:22:56,839 --> 00:23:03,200
touch with a number of sex works, he was reaching out to people online.

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00:23:03,559 --> 00:23:07,759
His activities seemed to be reaching a
higher level. They were very concerned

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00:23:07,799 --> 00:23:14,559
that he might actually kill again.
No one said this, but I'm reading

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00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:18,440
into it a little bit. There
was a pattern here where his wife would

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00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,400
leave town. She went to Iceland, her home country, for as long

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00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,160
as six weeks in years past,
and then sometimes she went down to New

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00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,960
Jersey, probably to the Jersey Shore, and to Maryland to see family,

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00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,640
usually for about a week or so
at a time. Those would be times

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when human would make contact with sex
workers and set up opportunities, and he

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00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,680
murdered a number of these women,
at least three. They think they can

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00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,599
link them to a fourth murder,
and then, of course we have the

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other unsolved murders in the Long Island
serial killer case, and perhaps other locations.

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00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:00,720
There was a sense that after keeping
this guy or surveillance four months and

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00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:07,440
having him on their radar from about
six weeks or so after they started the

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00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:14,079
new task force in January twenty twenty
two, they felt like enough time had

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00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,960
elapsed for them to build a strong
case. Remember, they had three hundred

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00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:26,359
different subpoenas into all sorts of access
to humans whereabouts, the use of the

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00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:32,160
burner, cell phones, the fake
email accounts, the Internet searches. There's

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00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:37,000
so much information here. I think
they felt like they had enough, and

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00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:41,200
they were concerned that he might be
escalating to the point where he would be

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involved in another murder, and obviously
they're trying to prevent him from killing again.

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No one said that they knew for
certain that the wife was headed out

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00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,119
of town or anything like that,
but certainly the pattern has been there for

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00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,720
a number of years for her to
go away without her husband interesting on these

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00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:07,599
vacation trips. There has been so
much additional information coming out about the searches

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00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:14,440
in his home that we will need
to cover that aspect of this case a

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00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,559
little bit more detailed as we continue
to learn more. I think a lot

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00:25:18,599 --> 00:25:21,920
of what we have right now is
speculation. There's a lot of discussion about

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00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,720
the vault that was found with all
the guns, and there just seems to

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00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,319
be more and more that is unfolding
about this case. We did want to

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00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,559
take a chance and go through this
bail application with all of you so that

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you can see where the investigation is
heading. As Bill mentioned at the top

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00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,400
of the pod, this is not
all of the evidence against Rex Humorman,

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00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:48,599
by any stretch of the imagination,
any more than the probable cause affidavits were

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00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,680
the entire case against Branko Burker.
It's just not true. They have a

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00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:59,000
ton of good information and evidence,
and I'm looking forward to seeing what continues

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00:25:59,039 --> 00:26:02,480
to happen with this case. But
we wanted to give you all the information

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00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:07,519
found in the bail application as soon
as we could manage that. We have

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00:26:07,559 --> 00:26:12,759
a fascinating episode coming up next with
Joe jock Alone, a twenty year veteran

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00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,920
and cold case investigative specialist with the
NYPD. He's been following this case since

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00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:26,720
the very beginning and lived on Long
Island during the time of Long Island serial

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00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:33,680
killings and Gilgo Beach killings. Although
Joe was not investigating these cases because he

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00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:41,319
lived on Long Island and worked for
the nypdse we're happening immediately adjacent jurisdiction,

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00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,079
and this has been a case that
has held a tremendous amount of interest.

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00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,880
We had a fantastic conversation with Joe
and that'll be coming up next on mind

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00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:55,160
Over Murder. We want to thank
everybody for continuing to request cases. It

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00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,400
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do it for this episode of mind
Over Murder. Thank you so much for

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listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of

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Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions.
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and christ

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00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,960
Dilly. Our logo art is by
Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by

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Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is
distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media.

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