You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now
trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other
victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway
murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media
manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and
I'm Bill Thomas, and we're back with our continuing coverage of a list because
a Long Island serial killer. And this is the third installment of ourtistcussion on
the application for bail obviously denied for Rex he remand the current suspect in the
Long Island serial killing or goil Go Beach four case. Bill, how are
you feeling about this whole document? So far. It's pretty interesting, right,
It is pretty interesting, and I find that if you know what you're
looking for, it is fascinating to see what's contained in the document and then
what is not contained in the document. And as we discussed in our previous
episode, these documents are not designed to be a complete review of all of
the evidence that's available to law enforcement as the investigation is unfolded. They are
merely enough to demonstrate the strength of the case, but will not contain all
of the information. As we talked about in the Brian Coburger example, in
the Idaho four case recently, and in Delphi, these documents contain a substant
ancial amount of information, but are far from complete. They would perhaps be
hundreds of pages in length if they were to contain all of the evidence.
We've seen some very odd comments over the last few months in this and other
cases where people are saying law enforcement doesn't have this piece of evidence or that
piece of evidence. You don't know that, we cannot know that. It's
not until a case is presented in a court of law that you're really going
to get a much more complete picture of what law enforcement has. We have
some information here. It is very interesting. It's also interesting to read from
other sources and to see what's not contained in these documents, charging documents,
or in this case, a presentation of why they think suspect Rex Humans should
be denied bail. So this is really just enough information to assure a judge.
Here's the evidence that we have against and we do not think that he
needs to be out on bail. This is certainly not, as you said,
the whole entire case against him. The last two episodes we have dealt
with the pages of this document. It is a thirty two page document and
it is just regarding bail application. And we've gone through and done what I
think we happen to do best, which is I'm providing information and we're providing
snarky at times color commentary. When we left off last time, we were
talking about the evidence presented by two forensic labs. Now these forensic labs are
unnamed in this bail application. They're only designated as Forensic Laboratory Number one and
Forensic Laboratory number two. But we do have our theories as to who those
labs might be. Bill, would you like to spill our theory on forensic
Lab one and two let's see how the article unfolds, and as we go
through the presentation all offer some thoughts about who the labs might be. The
only lab that's mentioned by name is the Suffolk County Crime Laboratory, but the
two other labs, which are clearly outside labs and are also pretty evidently private
labs, are mentioned. As you said, number one and number two.
I'll chime in here as we go along and offer an educated gas as to
who the labs might be. Okay, so we'll go ahead and start with
forensic Lab number one. In or about July twenty twenty two, Forensic Lab
one was able to determine that each of the aforementioned female hairs recovered on the
three victims each belonged to a female individual in metochondrial haplogroup K one C two,
and that this female was not any of the victims. Honor about July
twenty one, twenty twenty two, and undercover SCPD detective recovered eleven bottles from
a trash receptacle that had been left out for collection in front of the residence
of defendant Rex A. Hureman. The Seffitt County Crime Lab took swabs of
said bottles, which were subsequently sent to Forensic Lab one for DNA profiling.
Based on these new submissions, Honor about February twenty four, twenty twenty three,
Forensic Lab one was able to conclude that one of the DNA profiles generated
from the aforementioned bottles taken from Defendit Human's residence indicated a female individual belonging to
mitochondrial haplogroup K one C two, which is the same mitochondrial haplogroup as the
female hairs recovered from the three victims. So what that means is the hairs
that were recovered from those victims belongs to a person, a female, who
lives in the rex human residence and has the same type of DNA bill.
Based on all of that information, you want to take a guess as to
who Forensic Lab one probably is. I believe that Forensic Lab one is likely.
I'm not going to stake my life on it, but I believe that
this is likely authorm Labs. Here's why I think that. In the description,
it says Forensic Laboratory one applies DNA techniques and here's the key part of
the phrase. Direct genome sequencing in difficult to solve forensic casework and the identification
of human remains. If you read that carefully, that comes very close to
the way AUTHORM describes the work that they do. That's not to say that
there are not other excellent private labs, many of whom are people that we
know that also do this kind of work, but this language is really close
to the kind of language that AUTHRAM uses. We also know that AUTHRAM has
contracts with the FBI, as do other private labs, and with New York
State, as do other private labs. I am fairly certain that this lab
as described is AUTHRAM. Also note that they talk about difficult to solve forensic
cases and the identification of human remains, and those are the two key areas
that AUTHRAM works in and they've excelled in. I'm fairly certain this is AUTHRAM.
It could be BODY or other labs, but my money is on AUTHRAM
in this particular example. Now, I think it's interesting you are reading an
unredacted version of what I'm reading. I'm reading from the New York Times,
and in the New York Times that description that you just quoted from has actually
been redacted, So that's actually the best that's the best indicator and that does
sound to me a lot like Athram as well. Let's move on to Forensic
Lab two, and that actually is a couple of footnotes associated with it.
Once I'm done with that, then you tell me your guest for Forensic Lab
too. Forensic Lab two, Honor. About March twenty three, twenty twenty
three, the SEFIC Kenny Crime Lab requested Forensic Laboratory Number two, a lab
specializing in forensic mitochondrial analysis, to conduct additional independent analysis, Honor. About
June twelve, twenty twenty three, Forensic Lab two issued a report concluding that
the DNA sample from the female recovered from the bottles outside the residence of defendant
hureman I E. Huerman's wife and the female hair on amber Costello indicated that
the mitochondrial DNA profiles are the same at all compared positions common too and between
samples, specifically at a rate that would as per the m POP database.
I'll explain what that is in a minute. Exclude ninety nine point nine eight
percent of the North American population from the female hair on Castello. That's a
heck of a number. Okay, let me explain what the footnote is here
It explains MPOP database. That's empop. M POP is shorthand for the European
DNA Profile Group Mitochondrial DNA Population Database on a mouthfall, that a mouthful.
It is a web based collection of human mitochondrial sequence data from various populations worldwide.
The North American database includes twelve thousand, three hundred eighty six sequences of
North American forensic significance. The second footnote that goes right along with that goes
with that number ninety nine point nine eight percent of the North American population.
This statistical analysis incorporates a ninety five percent confidence level or margin of error,
as the North American database does not include every single DNA sequence of North American
forensic significance, which would require the typing of every individual in the population.
And it says that they do have a further exhibit which talks about the statistical
reporting. I don't think we're going to get into that because we are a
true crime podcast and not a DNA podcast, But basically the gist of that
is they are ninety nine point nine eight percent sure that the person who contributed
the DNA on the bottles also contributed the hair that was found on Amber Costello,
and that is rex Huerman's wife, correct, And I am fairly certain
that Forensic Lab Number two is a stray Out Labs, which was co founded
by PhDs Ed Green and Kelly Harkins Kincaide, both of whom I've spoken to
at some length. They are considered the finest cutting edge lab for hair analysis,
and it's Ed Green who actually developed this new technique of being able to
extract mitochondrial DNA from the shaft of hair. Hair is actually a dead product
that I know. We don't think about it in those terms. For years,
the only way to extract DNA from a hair sample is if we were
lucky enough to have a piece of hair that had a live root on it,
the little bulb that's at the end of the hair that's actually in your
scalp. Otherwise, it was not possible for decades to extract a workable DNA
profile. Ed Green, working at the University of California, was able to
develop a technique which they've now rolled out into this Astraya Labs, which is
a private lab also based in California, has now developed technique where they can
extract DNA which will result in a testable profile from the actual shaft of hair.
So forensic Laboratory number two, which I feel even more strongly than I
did about Forensic Lab number one. I'm willing to bet this is Austraia for
sure, because the cutting edge extraction of DNA from hair is really the province
right now of Austraia. Labs and the FBI and this team are going to
use the best people they can find in the country or even the world,
and that is Austraia in terms of hair analysis of this type. Going back
to this document, we have further explanation on the forensic lab testing. Forensic
Lab two then compared the profile associated with the DNA sample from Hureman's wife to
one of the two aforementioned female hairs recovered on the remains of Miss Waterman,
which also resulted in the conclusion that the mitochondrial DNA profiles are the same at
all compared positions common too and between samples, especially at a rate that would,
as per the MPOP database, exclude ninety nine point six nine percent of
the North American population from the hair recovered on Miss Waterman based on the foregoing
while ninety nine point nine eight percent of the North American population can be excluded
from the female hair on Costello and ninety nine point six nine percent of the
North American population are excluded from the female hair on Waterman. It is significant
that our h's wife cannot be excluded from either. The female hairs were covered
on the remains of Megan Waterman and Amber Costello. As previously noted, defendant
Hereman's wife was out of state at the time of Miss Waterman and Miss Costello's
disappearance and murders. Do you have the last sentence of this as such?
I do not have that. Okay, let me read that. Okay,
there's one sentence that's been redacted from the version that Kristen's looking at, which
is actually very important and I'm not sure why the New York Times is redacting
this. We're going to try to put up the unredacted version of this.
In the show notes for these episodes, it reads as follows. As such,
it is likely that the burlap tape, vehicles or other instrumentalities utilized in
furtherance of these murders came from defendant Human's residence, whereas wife also resides or
was transferred from his clothing. To be clear, the investigators have said,
we don't think that human's wife is involved in these murders. We think this
is a transference issue. If you think about tape, for example, or
other items like that, it's possible that if you placed a roll of tape
on a table or counter, for example, you could easily pick up contaminants
that were on that flat surface. And given the fact that this husband and
wife lived in the same look location, placing that tape or moving that tape
or the burlap or other materials could easily result in transference from an object around
the home from Huerman's clothing, and that may result in his wife's hair ending
up on the victim in this case. Twice in the Costello and Waterman attacks,
there was female hair attached to these women's bodies and they were able to
trace it back. And then, as you mentioned, Kristen, they confirm
with the testing of the water bottles acquired at the human home during the surreptitious
removal of trash from the human home, that then confirms that missus Huerman's hair
matches the DNA on those bottles, and you have one hundred percent confirmation or
close to it. That this is the same person. Very interesting bits of
information, and thank you for providing that information that was redacted. I don't
know why the New York Times would redact that. It's interesting. They've made
some odd choices. Maybe they're trying not to highlight one person's guilt. Maybe.
Anyway, we were able to find an unredacted copy of the document and
we may go with that because it is available to the public. You're listening
to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors.
We're back here at Mind over Murder. The next subsection is male hair
linked to definite Humorman. During the initial examination of Miss Waterman's skeletal remains and
the burlap materials to set that, Kenny Crime Lab was also able to recover
a male hair from the bottom of the burlap used to about Miss Waterman by
her killer Here and after male hair on Waterman as an initial examination of said
hair revealed Caucasian or European characteristics. However, the hair was unsuitable for further
DNA analysis at the time by the Suffolk Canty Crime Lab. This hair was
subsequently submitted for further DNA analysis Honor about July thirty one, twenty twenty,
Forensic Lab one was able to generate a DNA profile for the hair recovered on
the bottom of the waterman burlap. Specifically, Forensic Lab one determined that this
hair belonged to a male in mitochondrial haplogroup V seven A. Following the discovery
of the Chevrolet Avalanche, which was registered to defendit Huerman and the investigation of
Cellular Billion records and other items Honor, about January twenty six, twenty twenty
three, a surveillance team observed and recovered a pizza box thrown by defendant Huerman
into a garbage can located in front of three eighty five Fifth Avenue in Manhattan.
And then there's an accompanying picture to go along with that. They even
get into a great deal of detail with a picture of the trash can and
then a picture of the pizza box with what we used to call when I
was a kid, pizza bones, which are the various remnants of pizza.
I saw a comment on one of the discussion groups with a reminder for those
of us that are involved in the various activities, eat your pizza crests.
I'm trying to figure out what his pizza order is based on this and I
can't figure it out. It's just pretty bare bones there, Okay, So
underneath the photo of the pizza box we have this. The pizza box was
sent to the Sethic Kenny Crime Lab for analysis, where a swab was taken
from the left of the pizza crest Honor. About March twenty third, twenty
twenty three. The sefic Kenny Crime Lab sent the swab from the pizza crest
abandoned by defendant human to Forensic Lab number two, Honor. About April twenty
eight, twenty twenty three. A detective hand delivered from Forensic Lab one a
portion of male hair on Waterman to Forensic Lab two for testing Honor. About
June twelve. Forensic Lab two was able to determine, as to the male
hair on Waterman and the swab from the pizza crest, that the mitochond dana
profiles are the same, specifically at a rate that would, as per the
m POP database, exclude ninety nine point nine six percent of the North American
population from the male hair on waterman based on the foregoing, while ninety nine
point nine six percent of the North American population, it can be excluded from
the male hair on Waterman. It is significant that defendant human cannot be excluded
from the male hair recovered near the bottom of the burlap utilized to restrain and
transport Megan Waterman's naked and deceased body. Just going over a couple of the
details here, you'll note that in the early going of this case, which
is about thirteen years ago, they mentioned that they attempted to do testing at
that point. They'll give you a date, but when they talk about tests
being done at an earlier date, they could be talking about as far back
as twenty ten. Professor ed Green developed these new techniques for extracting usable DNA
profiles from hair in the ensuing thirteen years, and this is where you see
references in articles about the science catching up to the evidence. This advanced hair
testing is one of the things that's absolutely key to identifying Humorman and his wife
in terms of her hair evidence being there, putting them together and connecting them
to the burlap and tape used to restrain the women's bodies. This ties the
two of them, the humans, into these victims in a very significant way.
And then finally we're at the last section of this bail application. The
subhead is arrest in search of Humorman, his residence and other locations Honor.
About the evening of July thirteenth, twenty twenty three, defendant rex A Hureman
was arrested by Suffokenny police officers. Searches of his residence as well as other
locations are currently ongoing. At the time of his arrest, Definite Human had
on his person the burner cell phone number redacted, which was linked to the
redacted email account and used to conduct the online searches described above. Subsection penalties.
If convicted on the current charges, Defendant rex A Hureman faces multiple sentences
of life without parole. Final subhead remand without bail is appropriate based on the
series heinous nature of these offenses, the strength of the people's case, the
life incarceration the defendant faces upon conviction, the extreme measures this defendant took to
attempt to avoid apprehension for an extended period of time, the recent sadistic and
child pornography searches, use of fictitious names, email and cell phone, burner
accounts, online counter surveillance, and his access to and history of possessing firearms.
The people believe that the only means to ensure the defendants return to court
is to remand the defendant without bail. Signed Raymond A Tyrney District Attorney,
July fourteenth, twenty twenty three, Suffolk County, New York. And some
of the articles that I've read recently, people have been wondering why they made
a move on Urroman at the time they did. Now they lay out a
number of reasons why they feel that he should be remanded without bail, and
I think they make a good case here. They also seemed to feel,
and it started to come out in some of the reporting on the case since
the time of his arrest, that he was escalating again. He was in
touch with a number of sex works, he was reaching out to people online.
His activities seemed to be reaching a higher level. They were very concerned
that he might actually kill again. No one said this, but I'm reading
into it a little bit. There was a pattern here where his wife would
leave town. She went to Iceland, her home country, for as long
as six weeks in years past, and then sometimes she went down to New
Jersey, probably to the Jersey Shore, and to Maryland to see family,
usually for about a week or so at a time. Those would be times
when human would make contact with sex workers and set up opportunities, and he
murdered a number of these women, at least three. They think they can
link them to a fourth murder, and then, of course we have the
other unsolved murders in the Long Island serial killer case, and perhaps other locations.
There was a sense that after keeping this guy or surveillance four months and
having him on their radar from about six weeks or so after they started the
new task force in January twenty twenty two, they felt like enough time had
elapsed for them to build a strong case. Remember, they had three hundred
different subpoenas into all sorts of access to humans whereabouts, the use of the
burner, cell phones, the fake email accounts, the Internet searches. There's
so much information here. I think they felt like they had enough, and
they were concerned that he might be escalating to the point where he would be
involved in another murder, and obviously they're trying to prevent him from killing again.
No one said that they knew for certain that the wife was headed out
of town or anything like that, but certainly the pattern has been there for
a number of years for her to go away without her husband interesting on these
vacation trips. There has been so much additional information coming out about the searches
in his home that we will need to cover that aspect of this case a
little bit more detailed as we continue to learn more. I think a lot
of what we have right now is speculation. There's a lot of discussion about
the vault that was found with all the guns, and there just seems to
be more and more that is unfolding about this case. We did want to
take a chance and go through this bail application with all of you so that
you can see where the investigation is heading. As Bill mentioned at the top
of the pod, this is not all of the evidence against Rex Humorman,
by any stretch of the imagination, any more than the probable cause affidavits were
the entire case against Branko Burker. It's just not true. They have a
ton of good information and evidence, and I'm looking forward to seeing what continues
to happen with this case. But we wanted to give you all the information
found in the bail application as soon as we could manage that. We have
a fascinating episode coming up next with Joe jock Alone, a twenty year veteran
and cold case investigative specialist with the NYPD. He's been following this case since
the very beginning and lived on Long Island during the time of Long Island serial
killings and Gilgo Beach killings. Although Joe was not investigating these cases because he
lived on Long Island and worked for the nypdse we're happening immediately adjacent jurisdiction,
and this has been a case that has held a tremendous amount of interest.
We had a fantastic conversation with Joe and that'll be coming up next on mind
Over Murder. We want to thank everybody for continuing to request cases. It
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