1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:49,240 crime, Bill Thomas. Hi, it's Bill Thomas. For this next series 10 00:00:49,359 --> 00:00:52,719 of bonus episodes, we're going to go back to a series of episodes we 11 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,479 did on the Galaine Maxwell case involving the late not so great Jeffrey Epstein. 12 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:03,840 We hope you enjoy these bonus episodes of Mind over Murder and as always, 13 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,760 thanks for listening. Welcome to Mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Deli and I'm 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,719 Bill Thomas, and we're here to bring you some additional reporting on the trial 15 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,840 of Gallaine Maxwell. The sleazy, sort of nasty details that kind of then 16 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,799 shivers up your spine. We're here to report on them. I was saying 17 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,840 to you just before we went on air today that in reading the latest reporting 18 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:33,799 from this trial, if these were consenting adults, I don't think I'd have 19 00:01:33,879 --> 00:01:36,719 a big problem with any of this, and if people want to live their 20 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:40,599 lives and do whatever they do, but the fact that these are fourteen year 21 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:46,200 old girls just filled with revulsion. I don't know how else to put that. 22 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:51,879 The things that have come out here during the Maxwell trial are enough to 23 00:01:52,159 --> 00:01:57,319 engender rage, and I think most any person with a conscience and a heart, 24 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,599 the more that comes out during this trial more that I just have this 25 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,480 sense of rage toward this awful woman. And as you mentioned off air, 26 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:07,800 she's the only one that we can get mad at the moment. Jeffrey Epstein 27 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:12,680 is dead, either by his own hand or some vast conspiracy. We're not 28 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,800 sure which, but I still think he committed suicide. She's the only one 29 00:02:15,879 --> 00:02:17,960 left that we can get mad about. I think that makes me all the 30 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,360 more invested in and pissed off all of these allegations that are coming out about 31 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,919 Colaine Maxwell. I'm not big on predicting the future, but I'd be shocked 32 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,639 if Maxwell gets off. These charges are so serious, there's so many of 33 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:36,599 them. This trial only centers on four of the victims. There could be 34 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,240 dozens, if not hundreds, of victims, and everybody tells the same story. 35 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:44,919 I know there was a serious attempt to discredit these four women, who 36 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,280 I have to credit with their bravery and their willingness to come forward. They 37 00:02:49,319 --> 00:02:53,879 were fourteen year old girls when they were first prafficed by Maxwell and Epstein. 38 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,120 They're now women in their forties for the most part. But I have to 39 00:02:58,159 --> 00:03:02,719 give them a lot of credit for being to step forward using aliases, some 40 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,879 using only their first names. I know. I think one of the four 41 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,840 is actually using her full name. Yes, So tell us what happened in 42 00:03:09,879 --> 00:03:15,919 the trial, which is wrapping up much more quickly than originally anticipated. Yeah, 43 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,879 we were saying off air that this was anticipated to be six weeks long 44 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,039 at least that was certainly what was announced at the top of the trial, 45 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:27,080 but instead they have wrapped it up within a space of two weeks. The 46 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:31,879 testimony against Maxwell lasted twelve days. They have wrapped this up much more quickly 47 00:03:31,879 --> 00:03:37,039 than anybody anticipated. Maybe because, as you were speculating earlier, it's because 48 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,000 we're about to enter a holiday, a long holiday break. Maybe just because 49 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:44,000 they felt that it would be a better idea to wrap it up as quickly 50 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:46,439 as possible. But for whatever reason, this went much more quickly than I 51 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:51,680 think either of us anticipated. I was surprised too, that the defense only 52 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:55,840 called eight witnesses this past Thursday and Friday before resting their case. Based on 53 00:03:55,879 --> 00:04:00,240 the reporting that we've read, it didn't sound like they'd really put to They 54 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,800 are a very strong defense of Maxwell and her behavior, although according to her, 55 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:06,919 on the final day of trial, when asked if she would testify in 56 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,919 her own defense, she basically said no. She said, I'm not taking 57 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,479 the stand because they haven't presented a case beyond a reasonable doubt. So she 58 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:17,120 is quite confident that she's going to get off on all of this, I 59 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,240 would imagine, probably because she's rich and has gotten away with most everything her 60 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,879 entire life. Some of the analysis we'd read a few weeks ago, though, 61 00:04:25,959 --> 00:04:30,079 said that defense attorney has to decide whether his or her client would benefit 62 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,399 from testifying. Remember, of course, if you testify, you open yourself 63 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:39,199 up to cross examination, which we don't think Maxwell would have ever wanted. 64 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:45,920 I also think that her being this incredibly rich, successful woman who seems to 65 00:04:45,959 --> 00:04:51,399 have wasted her life in serving Jeffrey Epstein and basically acting as a procureur, 66 00:04:51,639 --> 00:04:57,720 almost like a him. What a waste of phenomenal opportunity. Here's a woman 67 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:01,279 who is affluent and well educate, aided and well connected, and could have 68 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:06,959 done so many wonderful things, and she's trafficking in teenage girls. Yeah, 69 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:13,439 I think that her testimony would have completely backfired, in my opinion. I 70 00:05:13,439 --> 00:05:17,360 think her arrogance and her sense of entitlement would have offended the jurors and made 71 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:21,040 them even more likely to find her guilty. I agree with that. I 72 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:26,040 think it probably ultimately is a very good thing that she did not testify before 73 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,800 we get it too terribly much. Further, we do want to acknowledge the 74 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,839 enormously wonderful reporting that has been done on this trial from the folks at Daily 75 00:05:33,879 --> 00:05:40,439 Beast. The majority of what we are citing here today comes from an article 76 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,639 from Daily Based reporter Kate Bricolay. I'm so sorry if I'm mispronouncing that name, 77 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,079 but it is very French, and I'm not sure if I'm putting the 78 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,160 emphasis on the right syllables. But this is just tremendous reporting, and so 79 00:05:53,199 --> 00:05:56,240 we thank her very much for the work that she has done. We are 80 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,600 going to use that as the basis for our discussion today. We know some 81 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,480 of the reporters for The Daily Beast, and we hope you don't get an 82 00:06:01,519 --> 00:06:08,360 angry message from Kate saying you've made hash of my beautiful last name. I 83 00:06:08,439 --> 00:06:11,319 know, I'm so sorry, And you would think that because I took French, 84 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,000 I would know how to say it, but I just have no confidence 85 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,240 that I'm saying it right. I'm so glad you took a shot at it 86 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:20,439 because I was looking at her byline and I thought we should absolutely acknowledge her. 87 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,639 And I thought, oh, let's let Kristin do that one. Yeah, 88 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,759 I think it's sprickle. That's the best I can come up with, 89 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,279 Kate. I am so sorry if I've said your name wrong. It's what 90 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,959 I got. Outstanding reporting. And we read a variety of articles, but 91 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:41,000 we thought this latest Daily Beast reporting was some of the best we'd seen. 92 00:06:41,319 --> 00:06:46,680 Absolutely so thank you very much for your excellent work. So at this point 93 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,600 we have reached the end of the Maxwell trial. It's all over. But 94 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,279 the shouting, I think is the actual phrase that I'm trained to use here. 95 00:06:55,439 --> 00:07:00,639 And the jury did begin deliberation on Monday after using arguments, and they 96 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,519 are looking to resume later on today. Today is Tuesday, right, I'm 97 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,800 on winter break. I don't remember the days of the week anymore. The 98 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,519 day we recorded this is a Tuesday, okay. Good to know. When 99 00:07:13,639 --> 00:07:16,600 teachers go on winter break they forget all sense of time, place, date, 100 00:07:16,639 --> 00:07:20,199 and everything else. Is that like brain disengagement? It really is. 101 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,319 Yes, you're going to be wrapping Christmas presents before we know it, So 102 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,959 that's true. We would assume, why haven't heard anything yet today. I 103 00:07:27,959 --> 00:07:30,959 haven't checked the news within the last hour, but I don't think the jury 104 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,040 has come back with a verdict yet. Jurors saw a procession of witnesses from 105 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:42,560 the prosecution, twenty four of them in total over ten days. Four of 106 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,839 those victims that you were referencing earlier are listed in that indictment against Maxwell. 107 00:07:47,399 --> 00:07:51,160 These were women who were, as we mentioned earlier, as young as fourteen 108 00:07:51,279 --> 00:07:57,000 when they were trafficked and molested by Jeffrey Epstein, and several of them charged 109 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:03,040 that Gallaine Maxwell was involved with that molest day and abuse as well. So 110 00:08:03,079 --> 00:08:07,000 what are some of the most important things that came out of the trial. 111 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,279 One of the things that really was emphasized for the jury is the fact that 112 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:16,759 there was this very tight bond between Epstein and Maxwell. This wasn't just a 113 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:24,480 nodding acquaintance that they had, It wasn't just business dealings. They really tried 114 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:31,000 to establish that Maxwell was very deeply entwined in Epstein's life. We had used 115 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,200 the phrase major domo, and I think that still applies. She was his 116 00:08:35,279 --> 00:08:39,679 girlfriend. In any attempt I think by people to say, oh, she 117 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:43,559 was just a nodding acquaintance, No she wasn't. She was his girlfriend. 118 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:48,679 And so they spent a lot of time establishing she was there every step of 119 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,240 the way procuring these girls for him. And so they really spent a lot 120 00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:56,559 of time the prosecution did, trying to lay out the fact that these two 121 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:05,080 are their accomplices and that they had this life of really almost insane luxury while 122 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,600 they were abusing these girls. And it was not girls who came from lifestyles 123 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:13,799 similar to theirs, but it was girls from financially struggling families or girls whose 124 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:20,600 home life was maybe not necessarily the strongest. They also addressed the fact that 125 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:24,720 Epstein imposed the reporting, referred to it as a code of silence to ensure 126 00:09:24,759 --> 00:09:31,639 that their employees, specifically Epstein's housekeeper, would stay silent about what they were 127 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:37,799 seeing at Epstein's various residences. They used a very disturbing expression in the Daily 128 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:46,799 Beast reporting, which is they referred to Epstein and Maxwell as training these fourteen 129 00:09:46,879 --> 00:09:50,080 year old girls sexually. There was something about it. The hair on the 130 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:56,759 back of my neck stood up. They would present these highly unusual sexually charged 131 00:09:56,879 --> 00:10:03,639 situations and then sent those to these young girls who were very impressionable and as 132 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:09,159 you said, vulnerable. I think in previous reporting we've seen significant detail that 133 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,960 they seemed to zero in on these young women from very vulnerable backgrounds. One 134 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,240 girl's father had died recently. Another one confessed that her grandfather had abused her 135 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:26,159 sexually when she was younger. I think they look for young people that had 136 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,960 these areas of vulnerability that could be exploited, and then they pulled them in 137 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:37,200 to this world that was affluent and exciting. Several of them talked about how 138 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:43,039 the then thirty something Maxwell was an exciting new friend for them to have a 139 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:48,840 somewhat older woman who's clearly worldly and cultured express interest in them as people. 140 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:54,000 Exactly we have talked a number of times with our friend and podcast colleague Jim 141 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:00,399 Clemente and Laura Richards, both of them are experts on the concept of sexual 142 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:05,039 abuse and grooming behavior. Is exactly what you saw here with Epstein and Maxwell 143 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,879 teaching these girls and trying to get them accustomed to the sort of abuse that 144 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:15,039 they were inflicting upon them so that it seemed normal to them, so that 145 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,679 it seemed as if this is something that this is just what you do when 146 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,240 you're rich and you're moving in these circles. This is what you're expected to 147 00:11:22,279 --> 00:11:24,960 do, This is how you're expected to behave which is absolutely appalling. Like 148 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,600 you said, it makes the hair on your back of your neck stand up. 149 00:11:28,639 --> 00:11:33,120 It's awful. One of the women testified that she was molested by Epstein 150 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:37,679 from the age of fourteen to eighteen, and then at age eighteen when she 151 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:41,159 was actually crossing over the line of consent. More than likely in Florida. 152 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,080 She was considered too old for Epstein, so he isn't even interested in women 153 00:11:46,159 --> 00:11:50,919 that are old enough to actually consent to this activity. Yes, disgusting. 154 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,480 Let's run down each of the victims now. We talked about Jane during some 155 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,159 of our reporting initially about the trial. We're fairly familiar with Jane. We 156 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:07,519 talked about her in a previous episode. She is testifying under a pseudonym because 157 00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:11,039 she is an actress who does have an acting career spanning twenty years, and 158 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:16,440 so she very understandably, I think, wants to remain anonymous in this circumstance. 159 00:12:16,159 --> 00:12:20,919 Jane was abused by Epstein and Maxwell starting in nineteen ninety four, when 160 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,759 she was fourteen years old. They began to train her I hate that phrase, 161 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:33,080 included her in group sexual encounters with other adult women. She actually named 162 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:41,000 some names here of women who participated in these group activities. She gave the 163 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:46,320 names Eva, Sophie, Michelle, and Emmy, being a British woman the 164 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:52,679 other I'm assuming American. Jane discussed the fact that she had been attending a 165 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:58,440 prestigious summer camp for musicians budding musicians, where Epstein was a donor and he 166 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:07,600 encouraged her musical talent and musical abilities and basically use that fascination that she had 167 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:11,720 with music, that interest in music, to groom her in this role of 168 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:13,240 becoming his I don't even know what you would call it. I don't want 169 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,679 to say paramore because that's too nice a term. I don't know what you 170 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,720 would call it. I'd go with victims. I don't think there's much else 171 00:13:20,799 --> 00:13:26,200 you can say. And it also appears that their financial sponsorship of things like 172 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,639 the music school are actually designed to give them access to a steady flow of 173 00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:37,120 young women girls. I have to always correct myself, so they can look 174 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:46,639 for young girls to groom and pull into their orbit of these disgusting sexual exploits 175 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:52,559 of these girls. Now, I noticed that discussing Jane's testimony, Jeffrey Epstein 176 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,000 paid for a lot of things for her. He paid for voice lessons, 177 00:13:56,039 --> 00:14:00,000 he paid for private school, he paid for bills that her mother couldn't afford. 178 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,039 So I think, to a certain extent with that he is making her 179 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,799 beholden to him. I am sure that there was, at some point or 180 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:11,200 another a conversation in which he basically said to her, I'm doing all this 181 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:13,399 for you. You're going to have to do something for me. I'm almost 182 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,000 certain that conversation, or some iteration of it happened. Agreed. The next 183 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:24,799 victim who testified was Kate Again that is another pseudonym. She is a British 184 00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:30,039 woman currently aged forty four, who said that Jeffrey Epstein and Galen Maxwell began 185 00:14:30,159 --> 00:14:35,240 grooming her when she was seventeen years old in nineteen ninety four. So again 186 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,440 penchant for underage women, although seventeen was hit in the upper limit. I 187 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,080 think of what Epstein would have wanted. I've read a bit more about Kate 188 00:14:43,159 --> 00:14:46,799 in some previous articles, and one of the things they said about Kate was 189 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:52,960 that she appeared younger. So she is on the edge of the sort of 190 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:58,399 girl that appeals to Epstein. But apparently she was seventeen but could have passed 191 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,360 for significantly younger. I was interested in the fact that her boyfriend. Kate's 192 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:09,600 boyfriend was an Oxford classmate of Galaine Maxwell, so the introduction was made in 193 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:13,879 that way. This is my classmate. Galaine Maxwell at that point invited Kate 194 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:20,559 to her fashionable London townhouse a couple of weeks later for tea. Again trying 195 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,840 to facilitate a relationship. Kate said, I was quite excited to be friends 196 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,480 with her. I felt I had found a new connection that could be really 197 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:35,240 meaningful to me. I don't want to move too quickly past the introduction for 198 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:39,240 Kate. Kate was dating a man that was probably twenty years older than she 199 00:15:39,519 --> 00:15:46,679 was. If he is a classmate of Galine Maxwell's, she's already in that 200 00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:52,440 kind of orbit of being involved with a much older man and probably sexually exploited 201 00:15:52,480 --> 00:16:00,000 as well. We keep seeing the term massages here through everything about this testimony, 202 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,879 and Glene Maxwell was approaching that concept with all of these girls by saying, 203 00:16:04,919 --> 00:16:10,559 oh, he needs massages all the time. It's very difficult to keep 204 00:16:10,639 --> 00:16:15,720 up with the massage schedule. I guess Glene Maxwell is making it sound like 205 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,480 she has all this work that she has to do to keep up with it, 206 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:23,240 and she's like outsourcing it to these girls. Apparently Maxwell insisted on three 207 00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:30,480 erotic massages per day, which is how we end up in these exponential numbers 208 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,559 of victims. And then, of course he wants to see different girls all 209 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:40,480 the time, so that there's a massage every few hours during the course of 210 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:45,559 the day. And there are victims one after another, three victims per day. 211 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,639 Kate later testified that when she was eighteen, she was invited to Palm 212 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:57,039 Beach where Glene Maxwell directed her to very schoolgirl costume super creepy, Yeah, 213 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:03,759 creepy and stereotypical. She then handed Kate a tray of tea things and said, 214 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:08,359 please serve him both with the tea, and then it is assumed with 215 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:15,079 things afterward the tea. Kate also testified this quote again made me feel like 216 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,640 I needed a shower. She asked me if I had fun and told me 217 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,160 that I was such a good girl and that I was one of his favorites. 218 00:17:22,079 --> 00:17:26,119 There is a note here in the reporting from Daily Basis says because Kate 219 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:32,119 was of the age of consent in the UK, which is seventeen, during 220 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,480 this pattern of abuse, jurors were instructed that she is not a victim as 221 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:40,319 charged in the indictment. So the age of consent is different in the UK 222 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,079 than the US, and so that caused a little bit of a hiccup here 223 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,440 in proceedings. I'm a little surprised by that because some of the sexual abuse 224 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:56,119 clearly happened at Epstein's home in Florida, where the age of consent is eighteen. 225 00:17:56,599 --> 00:18:00,920 So I'm a little surprised that they were trying to apply Brita law to 226 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:03,960 this young woman who was clearly from the UK. But I don't think all 227 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,480 of the abuse happened on that side of the Atlantic. I'm a little baffled. 228 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:12,039 We might have to ask one of our legal experts why the age of 229 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:17,039 consent in the United Kingdom would have been used as opposed to the United States. 230 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,359 Agreed. I feel like that's a question for Francy Higgs. Perhaps. 231 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:25,400 The third victim then, is Caroline. That is not apparently an alias, 232 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,519 that is a first name, no last name given. She is from Florida. 233 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,039 She testified that she was molested by Jeffrey Epstein between the ages of fourteen 234 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:38,720 and eighteen. And this is what you mentioned earlier about the woman who said 235 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:45,720 that when she turned eighteen she became too old for Jeffrey Epstein. Caroline is 236 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:51,279 the girl who had confided in Epstein and Maxwell that she'd been sexually abused when 237 00:18:51,279 --> 00:18:55,400 she was much younger by her grandfather, and that her mother was addicted to 238 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,759 drugs and alcohol, which created a lot of areas of vulnerability, which Epstein 239 00:19:00,799 --> 00:19:06,160 and Maxwell were perfectly happy to exploit, and evidently when she turned eighteen, 240 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:11,000 she was asked if she had any younger friends. So apparently they were trying 241 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:18,400 to get her to recruit other younger women into this perverted sex ring with Epstein 242 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,119 and Maxwell. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after 243 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:33,640 this word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. In 244 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,640 some of the longer form reporting from the Miami Herald, it was reported that 245 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:44,039 there was a almost a circuit of young girls who would then be asked to 246 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:49,680 recruit other younger girls to participate in the sex acts with Epstein and the three 247 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:55,920 massages per day. These young girls would be paid several hundred dollars for these 248 00:19:56,079 --> 00:20:00,640 quote unquote erotic massages. They would also be paid a commission basically to recruit 249 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:08,960 other young girls from Florida area schools to participate. There was an absolutely infuriating 250 00:20:10,039 --> 00:20:14,799 comment from the defense. The gist of it was that these women couldn't possibly 251 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,240 be considered of victims because they benefited financially from this. I had a couple 252 00:20:19,279 --> 00:20:23,440 of minutes where I couldn't even see straight when I read that's such an awful 253 00:20:23,519 --> 00:20:27,440 thing to say, and it's such a very obvious attempt at victim blaming here. 254 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:33,240 It filled my head with flames and screams. It was awful. In 255 00:20:33,279 --> 00:20:38,759 the documents that were created by Alexander Acosta, which were designed to limit the 256 00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:45,519 liability of Epstein in the sweetheart deal he was given by the then federal prosecutor, 257 00:20:45,759 --> 00:20:52,519 they referred to these young women as prostitutes. When the truth is under 258 00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:55,920 the law, and under Florida law, a woman who's under the age of 259 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,960 eighteen technically can't be a prostitute because she has not even reached the age of 260 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:04,920 consent yet. They insisted on referring to these young girls as prostitutes because they 261 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:11,680 were given money for their participation in these six sexx now. Carolyn also claimed 262 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:18,119 that Glene Maxwell groped and abused her one particular day, which we hadn't heard 263 00:21:18,279 --> 00:21:22,079 up to this point. She said that she was setting up the massage table 264 00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:29,960 for Jeffrey Epstein, Glenn Maxwell came in and groped her and said, quote, 265 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,480 I had a great body from mister Epstein and his friends. So please 266 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:37,559 note this is where we bring in the end his friends. Part One thing 267 00:21:37,599 --> 00:21:42,039 that's not clear at this point is whether any of these friends, which include 268 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:48,000 some very well known men, will ever be charged. There are thousands of 269 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:53,880 hours of secret recordings that were made by Epstein via a hidden camera system in 270 00:21:53,960 --> 00:22:00,079 almost every single one of his homes. Were not clear at this point as 271 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,599 to whether any of those men will ever be charged. We'll get into some 272 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,000 of those names here in a couple of minutes. The fourth victim who testified 273 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:11,680 was Annie Farmer. She testified under her own name instead of an alias. 274 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,880 She is now forty two, and she testified about a weekend as a sixteen 275 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,480 year old when Epstein and Maxwell took her on a solo trip to New Mexico. 276 00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:26,240 They had given her mother the impression that they would be taking her to 277 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:32,119 an academic gathering for twenty to twenty five students. What a shock that must 278 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,319 have been to learn that her sixteen year old daughter was alone with this couple 279 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,359 who were at that point in their thirties and forties, and she was taken 280 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,839 to this beautiful but very isolated ranch that Epstein owned in New Mexico. Here's 281 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:53,519 a young girl being sexually abused at an isolated location where there's only a handful 282 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:59,480 of people there, Epstein, Maxwell, some household staff, and she has 283 00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:04,599 no way to escape. She's basically been kidnapped and taken to this isolated location 284 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:11,119 where she spends a nightmarish weekend being sexually abused. And Annie does give some 285 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:18,200 testimony about giving Epstein his massages and about not wanting to do these things, 286 00:23:18,279 --> 00:23:21,000 but of course they've paid for her to be there, and prior to this, 287 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,920 they took her to the mall. They took her to the movies again, 288 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,599 that sort of quid pro quo scenario. Look what we've done for you, 289 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:32,559 The least you can do is this for Jeffrey Epstein. There is also 290 00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:37,880 reports from Annie Farmer of Galne Maxwell groping and abusing her, and of Jeffrey 291 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:44,599 Epstein watching during that particular process, which again makes me want to throw up 292 00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:48,599 in my mouth a little bit. And then finally, Epstein's former Palm Beach 293 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:56,640 butler, Juan Alessie testified about his responsibilities to Epstein and under the direction of 294 00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:00,519 Glene Maxwell, what he was required to do, and his descriptions of some 295 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:06,640 of the things he saw were highly disturbing. This was crazy stuff. The 296 00:24:06,759 --> 00:24:08,759 more that I read about this guy's testimony, the more I was like, 297 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,799 how did you not realize what kind of a monster you were working for. 298 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:19,960 He described a number of his responsibilities as being things like cleaning the massage room, 299 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:26,799 rinsing off sex toys, and restocking them in Galen Maxwell's bathroom closet. 300 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:32,880 So apparently she has her own separate bathroom and her own closet for all of 301 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,440 these toys. He reported that the bathroom closet also held what he described as 302 00:24:37,559 --> 00:24:45,240 pornographic tapes and either a black vinyl or black leather costume. I'm sure you 303 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:51,880 can use your imagination on that. He also stalked Jeffrey Epstein's various vehicles with 304 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,359 hundred dollars bills, which is interesting because a lot of victims, including Caroline, 305 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:02,240 who testified, said that Jeffrey Epstein would pay them in cash in that 306 00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:07,079 denomination of hundred dollars bills. So he was responsible for, I assume, 307 00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:11,039 going to the ATM possibly pulling out hundreds and stocking his various vehicles with them. 308 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:18,079 He also testified that he saw many females lounging by the pool topless, 309 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,200 and that he knew for a fact that two of them were underage. Many 310 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:26,240 of the others he thought looked young, but he didn't know how old they 311 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,359 were, and he wasn't necessarily carding anybody as they came to the house. 312 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:36,480 But he said there were many young females either nude or topless at Epstein's pool. 313 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,440 And this is interesting too. He said that Glene Maxwell ordered not only 314 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:47,480 himself but other household staff to follow a household manual, which ended up being 315 00:25:47,519 --> 00:25:51,279 fifty eight pages long, so clearly there's a lot here that you have to 316 00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:56,400 do. It's described as having a seemingly endless checklist of tasks for what to 317 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,960 do at Epstein's mansion. Some of these things fluted making sure that a gun 318 00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:07,160 was placed in the bedside table of the master bedroom. Interestingly enough, I'm 319 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,720 going to quote directly from the article here because this is so good I can't 320 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,920 think of a way to phrase it any better than this quote. The bookley 321 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,880 contained directives such as remember that you see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing 322 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,480 except to answer a question directed at you. Asked about this rule unlessie testified, 323 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,599 it means a kind of warning that I was supposed to be blind, 324 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:32,559 deaf, and dumb to say nothing of their lies. One of the other 325 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:37,720 orders in that document was unless instructed, and never disclose mister Epstein's or miss 326 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:45,880 Maxwell's activities or whereabouts to anyone just sick Unlessie had worked for Epstein from nineteen 327 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,000 ninety one to two thousand and two, and he testified that he found the 328 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:55,000 manual very degrading to him and the household staff, and that Maxwell had further 329 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,400 added that he was never to look Epstein in the eyes when addressing him, 330 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,880 always to be looking down or away. His hours were just ridiculous. He'd 331 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:11,200 work from five am to nine or ten pm, and he described the job 332 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:19,000 as quote slavery unquote. Maxwell's lawyer basically said none of the female messuses were 333 00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:23,480 talking victims here, not female missuses. He said none of them complained about 334 00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:27,440 being hurt or cowerse and Lessie acknowledged that, and he said, no, 335 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:30,920 they never did, but I wish they would have, because I would have 336 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,559 done something to stop it. Dight twenty twenty and all of that. Now 337 00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:40,559 we get to the point in this testimony that I'm sure a lot of people 338 00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:45,920 are very eager to hear about, and that is the who's who of Jeffrey 339 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,920 Epstein friends, famous acquaintances, you name it. Some of these, of 340 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:55,319 course, are already widely known, and some of them I was a little 341 00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:57,640 surprised to hear until I thought about it for another minute and then realized, 342 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,200 actually, I'm not surprised to hear this at all. All of these names 343 00:28:02,279 --> 00:28:08,519 run the gamut from politicians, actors, British Royalty, businessmen, people on 344 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,400 both sides of the aisle left hand right. It is quite a list. 345 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,519 Some of them, of course, we are already well familiar with, Donald 346 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:22,359 Trump, Bill Clinton, Prince Andrew of Britain. Some of these I was 347 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,160 not terribly familiar with. Like I was surprised, but not surprised, Etzok 348 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,319 Perlman, violinist Kevin Spacey. I really shouldn't have been surprised by that one. 349 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,039 And yet no, no, not at all. Chris Tucker, former 350 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:40,119 senator, George Mitchell, former astronaut John Glenn. That one took me back. 351 00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:45,480 There was a question as to whether RFK Junior took a jount on Epstein's 352 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:51,640 plane, but the pilot did not recall if he had been there. Other 353 00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:57,119 people that showed up on the plane frequently included for his secret muggul Les Wexner, 354 00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:03,680 who maybe one of the art sources of income for Epstein's money management business. 355 00:29:04,279 --> 00:29:11,799 Manhattan billionaire couple Glenn and Eva Dubin, who testified on Dylanne Maxwell's behalf 356 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:17,720 and then Maxwell's former boyfriend, Gateway founder Ted Wyatt, was also among the 357 00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:21,680 people who were seen to be traveling on that plane. They also mentioned the 358 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,559 TV reporter Mike Wallace, now deceased. That took me a minute too to 359 00:29:26,599 --> 00:29:30,920 digest that one, considering that Wallace was a pretty good age at that point. 360 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,680 Jane testified that during a visit to New York City when she was fifteen 361 00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:41,279 years old, she sang Happy Birthday to Mike Wallace at his eightieth birthday. 362 00:29:41,319 --> 00:29:47,480 It's it really just when you think it can't get any worse in terms of 363 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:51,640 people who end up embroiled in this, it gets worse. I love this 364 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,039 next terminology by Kate. She titles this next section of her reporting Epstein's assistants 365 00:29:57,079 --> 00:30:03,039 were Maxwell fangirls, and that's definitely what they come off as for sure. 366 00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:08,240 Two of the witnesses that the defense called on behalf of Galaine Maxwell, were 367 00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:15,319 former employees of Jeffrey Epstein. Their names are Kimberly spelled with a sea, 368 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,640 so maybe Simberley, I think it's probably Kimberly Espinosa and Michelle Haley it is 369 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:26,839 quote. They shared glowing memories of Maxwell. They did acknowledge that they met 370 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,119 Jane in the nineteen nineties, but both testified that they believed she was an 371 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,279 adult at the time that they met her. She may have looked like an 372 00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:37,960 adult because they mentioned that she was wearing a lot of makeup, that doesn't 373 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:44,920 necessarily mean she was of age. Both of these women share such high opinions 374 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,880 of Galaine Maxwell that I just have to call their credibility into question. We've 375 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,039 got a couple of quotes from them. Quote, I highly respected Gallaine. 376 00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:57,920 I looked up to her very much. You've got both of these women who 377 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,720 keep acknowledging over and over that the girls that they saw looked like a grin 378 00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:06,720 up to me, as you said, because they were wearing a lot of 379 00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:11,480 makeup. But they basically just said, look, Glene Maxwell is fantastic. 380 00:31:11,599 --> 00:31:15,640 She's taught me a lot. I respect her. She's tough but great. 381 00:31:15,359 --> 00:31:23,160 None of that disproves any of the prosecution's extensive testimony from these four young women. 382 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:29,079 Okay, these people that work for Maxwell and were well compensated by Maxwell 383 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,359 admired her. I'm not surprised, but the fact that she was a terrific 384 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,559 boss and tough but fair doesn't preclude the fact that she was procuring and sexually 385 00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:45,160 abusing all of these young girls. Agreed. They did reveal financial records showing 386 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,240 that Glene Maxwell did receive millions of dollars from Epstein, But I do not 387 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:52,400 think that is news to anyone at all. We have a whole set of 388 00:31:52,519 --> 00:32:00,440 numbers basically showing that Epstein wired millions and millions of dollars two accounts for Gallaine 389 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,440 Maxwell, including one there was seven point three five million dollars to an account 390 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:08,759 for Air Gallaine, Inc. What did they do with the seven point three 391 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,279 five million? They bought a helicopter, as one does, apparently when one 392 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,200 has more money than one knows what to do with. Yeah, if I 393 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,440 had seven point three five million dollars, I would do a lot of things 394 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,240 with it. But I don't think my helicopter is on my list. No, 395 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,440 nor mine. But I don't know they're rich are different. If Scott 396 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,319 Fitzgerald said that that's quote the English teacher. I think these two can be 397 00:32:32,359 --> 00:32:37,519 condemned for a lot more than just being rich. Yeah. Absolutely, there 398 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,839 is an alleged co conspirator here by the name of Sarah Kellen, and she 399 00:32:43,039 --> 00:32:49,559 was named over and over in some of this testimony, but she never actually 400 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:55,880 testified. And that is because when Jeffrey Epstein was given that sweetheart deal that 401 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,920 you've mentioned a couple of times now in two thousand and eight document granted immunity 402 00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:07,200 to what they called potential co conspirators. And there is a whole set of 403 00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:13,279 names here of those potential co conspirators, of which Sarah Kelen is one. 404 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,279 Her name continues to come up during the trial, but she did not testify, 405 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,880 and as we said at the top of the podcast, Galain Maxwell ultimately 406 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:29,680 decided that she would not testify in her own defense. She proclaimed her innocence 407 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:34,680 a number of times. Her statement was, quote, your honor, the 408 00:33:34,759 --> 00:33:38,039 government has not proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and so there is 409 00:33:38,079 --> 00:33:43,920 no need for me to testify. Okay, not saying I buy that, 410 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:47,720 not for one minute now. I don't either. Honestly, I think that 411 00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:52,319 there's a mountain of evidence here against her. I think that ultimately she will 412 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:54,839 be found guilty. If there's any sense of justice in this world, she 413 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,720 will be found guilty. Yes, she felt no need to testify in her 414 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,240 own defense, and that's her right. And in fact, the judge did 415 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,119 ask her, do you understand that you can testify even if your attorneys don't 416 00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:10,679 want you to? Do you understand that you can? And she basically said, 417 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,039 yeah, I know it, but I'm not going to. So evidently 418 00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:16,480 she feels that the case is not strong enough, and I'm sure that she 419 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:22,599 thinks that she will be found not guilty. There was mentioned that a number 420 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:27,360 of people showed up to watch the trial, other Epstein victims. They did 421 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,000 mention, in particular Sarah Ransom, who has just published a book or is 422 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:36,760 about to publish a book about her years being abused and trafficked by Epstein and 423 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:42,559 Maxwell looking forward to reading that. They also made note of the fact that 424 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,920 Glenn Maxwell had some support from her siblings. But the person probably most notably 425 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:52,719 who did not show up was her husband, not husband, possibly a secret 426 00:34:52,800 --> 00:35:00,559 husband. Schrodinger's husband did not show up, apparently he's stating a forty nine 427 00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:06,199 year old yoga instructor in Manchester bad to Sea, where they lived, so 428 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,159 apparently it's good riddance to bad rubbish for him. It looks like Scott Borgison 429 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,599 has moved on, then, hasn't he? It sure looks like it. 430 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,920 There was a little bit of a flap, as there should have been with 431 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:22,840 regard to Maxwell's lawyer. Accidentally, I hope you guys can hear the air 432 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:28,239 quotes around that naming some of the victims real names in court. That's a 433 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:34,519 slee's ball move. He said it was completely unintentional. I called bus on 434 00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:37,679 that, But whatever, maybe it was, especially since it happened more than 435 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,960 once, Yes, over the course of two weeks. Yes, and it 436 00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:46,840 wasn't just for one victim, it was multiple victims. So I find that 437 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,679 incredibly disingenuous to say, oh, I was on accident. It was not 438 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,159 on accident, my dude. It was not absolutely awful. So at this 439 00:35:55,199 --> 00:36:00,199 point, the trial has wrapped up and we are awaiting a final verdict. 440 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:05,480 Here, we can only hope that the jury will do the right thing and 441 00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:09,719 we'll find Galine Maxwell guilty on all charges. Once we do have a verdict, 442 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,800 y'all can count on us coming back and doing another episode in which we 443 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,039 unpack the decision and make our own thoughts well known, although I think at 444 00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:22,880 this point it's pretty obvious where we stand on Glene Maxwell, and I still 445 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:27,960 think it's a shame that Jeffrey Epstein's not here to face trial on his own. 446 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:32,599 I did like the fact that her family is apparently filing suit against the 447 00:36:32,639 --> 00:36:37,480 New York prison system for the conditions that she's being held in. Please lady, 448 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:42,519 give me a break. There's a sense of entitlement and then there's off 449 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:45,480 the charts sense of entitlement. You don't want to be treated like a prisoner. 450 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:49,360 Don't break the law. I realize that's a little flip, but it 451 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,280 is what it is. Honestly, that's going to do it for our coverage 452 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,239 on the Galine Maxwell trial. Thank you so much for listening to this episode 453 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:09,079 of mind Over Murder. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 454 00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:15,239 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 455 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:21,639 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme 456 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,880 music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral 457 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,840 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 458 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,280 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway murders on Facebook, and 459 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,800 finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five six. 460 00:37:40,280 --> 00:38:00,559 Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder my