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Wah didn't al Pacino play him in a movie? Sure? There wasn't.
Robert didn't there one? It was? That was Elizabeth. He go down
to Georgia and someone Hello, and welcome to this episode of the superhero e
Fics Podcast. Friends. You know that if we're talking about Superman, Jessica
Plumber is going to be our guest. And I've been talking to Riki,
who is also a big Superman fan, and he got me to watch My
Adventures with Superman Animated show that's on Max. As always, animated, DC
is really hitting it out of the park and for once, they've made a
Superman story that I really like, and so I wanted to talk about the
story with both jess and with Riky. So first I'll say to you,
Jessica, Hello, Welcome, how you doing. I'm good, Thanks for
having me back. You know, I love any excuse to talk about Superman.
My pleasure, my pleasure, and as I've just learned, sooner I'll
be up right now, I just call you Superman Superman Extraordinaire. Soon I'll
be able to refer to you as published Superman author Jessica Plumber with a new
book coming out May. We'll have more about that in later episodes. And
Riki Hayashi Mineral co host Ricky, how we doing good. I'm excited for
this because shortly before I started watching the show, we had been talking about
Superman just as part of a conversation, and I think I mentioned it would
be interesting to have the story where Superman was Asian to kind of reflect on
the immigrant experience. And then I started watching this and I was like,
wait a minute, is Lois on this show Asian? And it's finally been
confirmed in season two. It was kind of hinted at in season one and
visually the voice actress, etc. But now it's been confirmed, and it
got me thinking a lot about Lois Lane in Superman, which is why I
wanted to have this episode. So here we are well is what I really
think is interesting because part of what watching this has helped me realize is how
much my view of Superman changes based on the relationships he has with those around
him. And Jessica know that something you and I have talked about a lot,
so so Riggi let me just start by giving you the floor why this
question as the framework you wanted to discuss this idea of not does Superman need
Lois in the story, but as I understand it, does a Superman story
need Lois? Why that question? Well, I started with it because the
name of the show, it's My Adventures with Superman, So it's like,
who is the my and presumably it's Lois. There's like a smaller chance that's
Jimmy Olsen in the show, but I think Lois is supposed to be the
My. And other Superman TV shows that I've watched Lois and Clark the New
Adventures of Superman from back in the nineties, and then more recently on the
CW there's Superman and Lois TV show. So by putting her name in the
title or in this case, making her the POV character of the title,
I feel like there's something going on here with these TV shows where Lois is
very important, and to me, it also contrasts with the movies where I
feel like Lois Lane unfortunately gets downplayed a lot for Superman. So that that's
why I want to, you know, and having Jess here as the Superman
expert to tell us more about all this, especially in the comics. Like,
I'm a fan of the character, but I Superman is probably like my
third or fourth favorite DC comic character, so I don't know as much about
him in the comics. Well, luckily, I had to read eighty six
years of Superman history and a month last year for book research, so I'm
ready. I have so many thoughts from everything you just said, Riki.
First of all, like, yes, Lois Is I think she's hugely important
to the story. Just like to start to answer the initial question, she
was in the very first appearance of Superman. She's right there in action comics
with him. She's the only character who has been there from the beginning.
She is one of the oldest characters. She's older than Batman because he didn't
show up until the next year. To this day, is the female character
with the second longest running comic book in DC history, after Wonder Woman.
Like no Catwoman or Batgirl. Nobody even comes close. Honestly, it was
Superman's girlfriend Lois Lane, which was also a best selling title in the sixties,
outsold Batman. She's a hugely important character with a huge amount of history.
But I agree that she is not always treated that way. And I
think it's really interesting that you pointed out the difference between how she's treated in
television versus movies, because in media studies, there absolutely is this idea that
like the big screen and the small screen are gendered. Like the big screen
is considered much more of like a masculine screen, I guess, and it's
aimed at much more at male audiences and those four quadrant audiences. And there's
something sort of quote unquote feminized about the small screen. It's at home,
it's domestic, it's you know, the little woman watches while she vacuums or
whatever. And I think it's really interesting that you see the female lead in
this story. Is You're absolutely right, so much more prominent in television adaptations
of Superman, going all the way back to the George Reeves version. Well,
one of the first things I noticed is that in granted, Jessica,
you and I have talked about this a lot, and I think one of
the comments you have made that I really most loved because I think it applies
to a number of superhero but especially the Superman lowis Lane dynamic. Is I
hate the gaslighting of the romantic partner in order to keep the secret, and
how sometimes it's played for laughs, as I think can be done in very
kind of patronizing, condescending, sexist ways, for example, or sometimes like
yeah, because like you're driving her crazy and it's being played for laughs,
Aero verse and Wade Wilson's girlfriend, I'm looking directly at you, Nott,
Wade Wilson's Barry Allen, thank you. Yeah. The treatment of his partner
especially, and the fact that in this fairly early on we get to that
issue. But A people are telling Clark directly lying to her is not okay.
You are doing harm to her, You harmed to your relationship with her.
That's not okay. And b figures it out almost instantly. And the
for me, Christopher Reeves Superman the Donner versions was what I grew up with.
So that's what I think of. And so one of the defining parts,
one of the defining ideas of that relationship is in Superman two where she
leaps off the bridge to try to prove that Superman is Superman. In at
Niagara falls on her honeymoon with Clark, and of course though her memory has
changed and like all these terrible things are done, and the fact that they
recreated that exact scene but made it much more not she's being a silly little
woman, but she's an empowered reporter proving a point. And that Clark immediately
recognizes that he screwed up. To me, that that felt like a very
intentional we're gonna we're gonna put a flag right here to say, this is
a different kind of relationship with Lois. So I'm I'm torn on how the
show handles it. I'll be honest, because yes, like I love that
she figures it out. I love that she is not told. She figures
it out because she is smart and the thing is Lois. I mean,
Lois always figures it out, like Margo Kidder figured it out and then Superman
uses alien powers to gaslight her, Like that's what happened. She always figures
it out. She's not stupid. He's just messing with her. This Lois
figures it out. It's the fourth episode. Like, I was flabbergasted that
she got it that quickly. I've screamed when she yells Clark after him.
I screamed when she jumped off the roof, because you're right, like that
is the lowest move it's the go to move, and I love that she
did it. It delighted me. But I don't think that their relationship is
at all comparable to most other versions of the characters, and certainly not to
something like Barryan Iris on The Flash, because Barry and Iris had been friends
since they were small children. They were foster siblings, which it's weird that
they got married, but we've all agreed that we're going to pretend that didn't
happen. And he was actively conspiring with her father and her boyfriend to guesslight
her and not knowing was actively putting her in danger, whereas on My Adventures
at Superman, they've known each other for two weeks and she is mad that
he doesn't tell her the deepest secret that he has that actively endangers him and
his parents, that he has never told a single other person in his entire
life that we know of. Jimmy doesn't know, and they've been friends for
at least four years at this point. I mean, Jimmy does know,
which is the other thing that is amazing. And I screamed that too,
because that is the I've always, in my heart wanted Jimmy to just know,
and he just never mentions it, because as long as he doesn't say
that, he knows he gets two birthday presents every year. Yeah, I
wouldn't tell either, But I just don't think. I don't think Lois and
Clark's relationship is at the point where she's entitled to that information. They're not
dating, they haven't known each other for very long, and she literally begins
the relationship by lying to him and almost getting him fired on his first day
of work, and she ends the season by lying to him again by hiding
the ball of Evil Superman that she gets from the League of Lois Lanes,
and she's like, how dared you lie to me? I hate liars,
And it's like, girl, that's all you do. So that's fair,
that's fair. I love the idea. But for me, I think,
honestly, I think the problem is they didn't have enough episodes. I think
there's a lot of stuff in their relationship and in all the characters' relationships,
including their relationship with the community, that would feel earned if they had twenty
two episodes, and there were like twelve months through the week episodes in this
season, but they don't, and so it's like, why are you mad?
You met three days ago. It's interesting I didn't think of any of
that. I think because maybe I'm just I'm so used to the Lois and
Fark relationship of this is a conversation happening years into their dynamic, or like
after they've actively fallen in love or something like that. But yeah, no,
it's a good point. Yeah, And I think the show often does
a really good job of trading on like what we know and expect from a
Superman show, stuff like the relationship between Lewis and Clark being turned down its
head by her figuring it out so early, stuff like the relationship between Clark
and Jimmy being turned down its head by Jimmy always knowing. Those things land
really well because we expect things to go a certain way, even like the
gradual reveal of who Alex is is such a great like tease for the audience
that's in the know. But then sometimes it doesn't quite work when the characters
are like, we know Metropolis better than anyone, and I'm like, do
you you haven't been outside? Who are you talking about? Yeah? The
Alex thing. I had dismissed it in season one, and I think early
on in season two maybe even the episode where it's revealed to the audience.
I turned to my wife's Sarah, and I was like, wait a minute,
Like, they brought this guy back. His name is Alex, Like,
oh, come on, But yeah, it's good. I think it's
good when you have properties like Superman that have so much history and so many
characters that we know from all media, and you pepper stuff in in the
background. Sometimes sometimes it's just a background characters, like a name drop or
an Easter egg. But even like someone as prominent as Lex Luthor to Superman,
the ability to have him as a character in season one, and I
would say for most people to not realize who that was going to become or
is I call that a triumph? Right? Yeah? Absolutely, Like the
fact that they saved him for so long, and they're throwing out villains like
live Wire and the mist as early villains like the myst isn't even a Superman
villain, but they're really like throwing in some you know, C list villains
in there and taking them seriously, how dare you live Wire? I would
call live Wire b list. I'd say, yeah, I think that's really
true. And I have a lot more to say about the relationship with both
Lois and Jimmy. But Riki to kind of take it back to your question.
I think we're talking about the relationship, but the nature of your question
was more about, like how do these relationships themselves shape Superman? Say more
about that, because I think you're really onto something there in terms of how
I see Superman least, why the dichotomy be between you know, we mentioned
between TV show and movie, right, Like a movie is an hour and
a half to three hours, let's just say a couple of hours, and
if a Superman movie has to have a certain amount of action in it,
like that's just a requirement these days. And I think the issue is that
Lois to Superman is such an important character for like who he is as Clark
Kent in a movie, we just get we just don't have time to have
as much Clark Kent. So I think it is you know, we often
talk about Superman and Clark Kent is different people quote unquote, and I think
the issue is that Lois is an important character for Clark Kent and is less
important for Superman. I would say we see that in the Justice League slash
Justice League Unlimited cartoons where Lois shows up maybe like twice across five seasons,
because there isn't that much Clark Kent on that show. It's mostly Superman because
it's like so much action oriented. So for a TV show, whether you
know it's like a ten episode season or twenty or whatever, you have to
have more Clark Kent. You have to have more of that human interest angle.
And I think that that's why we get more prominent Lois on a TV
show. And that's important because that if it was just like action action action
Superman, like I wouldn't I don't think I would enjoy the show. That's
you know, you mentioned CW Flash and frankly like that's one of the reasons
that show was less interesting because they relied a little too much on the Flash
and having an action sequence in every show, in every episode, and it
didn't play well because the special effects budget was not that great. So yeah,
I I I think for a TV show like Lois, Lane is absolutely
important because Clark Kent is more important. That's that's my thesis I would say,
is that this show has to be about Clark Kent as much as it
as it is about Superman. Yeah, I COO signed that one hundred percent.
I think you're absolutely right. I would go further and say that the
correct genre, or at least the best genre for Superman to be in,
is a workplace romantic comedy, which is what Lois and Clark was the nineties
TV show, which I personally think was the best adaptation of Superman we've ever
gotten. Politics of some of the actors' side side, the show itself is
great, and I I feel like, again it's part of why TV works
for Superman is because they don't have any budget and it's live action, and
so you kind of you have to do stuff with Clark because you can't afford
to do stuff with Superman. And I think that's good for them. I
think it forces them to be creative. And obviously animation doesn't have those limitations,
and I would say that, like you made the point about Justice League
and Jou not really having much Lois or even much Clark, I would go
one further. Superman the Animated series has almost no Clark, and Lois is
used kind of just as a reporter, like that relationship is not very nuanced
in that show, which I love Superman the Animated series, but I do
think that it suffers. One of the reasons it suffers in comparison to Batman
the animated series is because it doesn't dig into the character and his psychology and
his relationships in the same way that the Batman TV show did. But Yeah,
I say workplace, romantic, comedy, and all three of those words
are really important. It should be taking place at the Daily Planet, like
we should see that set a lot. It should be very much revolving around
his relationship with Lois, and it should be funny. And my Adventures with
Superman checks all three of those boxes. Yeah, I think this is really
true. I think part of what this is helping me put my finger on
is that I feel there's a very big difference between Clark Kent shows and Superman
shows and part of the questions that they're asking and that a Clark Kent show,
which is about Clark Kent who occasionally moonlights as this Superman persona, is
mostly about his relationships with other people and how he's defined by those. A
Superman show is about the ethics of being Superman, where I feel like the
main people he plays off of are not necessarily Lois and Jimmy. But now
is Batman or other people who have different approaches to being like the superhero or
wonder Woman or you know, whoever it is, or his his you know,
his anime is primarily such as like Brainiac or lex you know, those
who challenge him in those kind of ways. And especially for this show,
I'm interested in Rinki, particularly since this one you and I have talked about.
I watched some of these episodes with Mary, my spouse, and one
of the first things she said when she was watching is is this an anime?
Because for her, at least somewhat with the animation, but also just
the style of the way the characters were relating to each other. It felt
very much like that. And I don't say i'd put it as anime necessarily,
but this felt to me like a kid's show. Everything was a little
bit overdone. Everything was a little bit like painting in broad strokes. Like
the villains didn't act like I think an actual villain would act. They acted
like someone who's trying to tell you very specifically they were a villain would act.
And some of like the the funny moments around Jimmy and stuff like that,
not in a like I felt as an adult, like I wasn't it
felt kind of like something like Avatar the Last Air, but in that like,
is it clearly aimed at kids but done intelligently enough that adults can also
stortially enjoy it? Does that make it ka? I'm kind of curious your
thoughts on that, both on like it being anime kind of connected but also
just that general like the kids show aspect of it. Well, yeah,
this is the studio I've mentioned several times. Studio Mirror is the South Korean
animation studio that makes the that animates this show, and I mentioned them.
They did The X Men ninety seven Voltron Defender of the Universe, and so
their style is, you know, more anime than a lot of American cartoons.
Of course, this is an American cartoon. But I'm saying, like,
you know the other stuff we watch and I think you know the writing
as well, what what the the the romantic workplace comedy thing like really hit
an nerve in the right way for me, because I agree, and that's
that is a thing like for me Like anime. Yeah, I love the
Mecca anime, but I also love like sports anime, and you got to
have like these relationships kind of on the side of the sports action. So
that's how I view this is like, yes, like we're gonna have the
Superman action. He's gonna have you know, super Villain to fight probably every
episode or every other episode, but gosh darn it, like the human aspect
of it is so important. So what was your other question, Matthew,
I talked about Studio Mirror. Oh no, I I yeah, I think
I think you've kind of really addressed a lot of what I was getting at
there. I will also point out that the first time Clark puts on the
super Suit, he has a magical girl transformation and it made me so happy,
Like I was so delighted by his Yeah, and I don't know who's
who's making those decisions, right, Like is that the animators at Studio Mirror,
Like do the writers who write the script like give some notes on how
they want something to be animated? Because a similar thing the opening credits is
so anime to me, like the use of the song and like the way
that it cuts so quickly, like it just I don't know, it really
appeals to me in that regard. Yeah, Mary, I think I'm remembering.
Mary actually said specifically that it was the opening credits especially that we're like,
oh, so this is like Americans anime. Yeah. Absolutely, I'd
be interested to know like where it's storyboarded, if it's storyboarded here in the
States, or if it's done, because I think that would answer a lot
of questions of those questions of like who makes that decision? Mm hmmm.
I'll also say, and I wonder how many people have the same experience,
because I'm about to talk of how this show is influenced for me by a
very very different show that has a very different age relationship of who should be
watching it. Have either of you seen The Boys? No? I okay,
I don't want to say refuse, but I will not voluntarily watch that
show. Yeah, everybody, It is not for everybody by any means.
It's probably my favorite superhero show out right now, which says a lot about
it. I believe. I believe that. Yeah. Well, here's like
my understanding is that it is a very well made show, like well written,
acted, et cetera. So like, I'm not criticizing the show or
people who like it. It's definitely not my taste. It is a very
well is a very well made version of a very particular kind of dish that
not everyone loves. But the reason I'm bringing it up is to give a
very basic idea of the show. Most of it's about these very cynical,
very powerful people and this one very nebishy guy who is powerless compared to everybody
and always scared all the time, but also incredibly idealistic and always wants to
see the better of things even though everyone around him is so cynical. And
that character is played by Jack Quaid, who's the voice actor who plays and
so I have to imagine that for me at least, that influenced a lot,
because you know, most of the time Superman is being played by people
who have, you know, the lantern jaw and the confidence that goes with
that, and I've always sort of felt like and maybe some of the other
versions I would not feel quite as much like watching Christopher Reeve try to be
awkward like he was decent at it, but it still looks like an NFL
linebacker who people would be throwing themselves at under any circumstances. Glasses are no
glasses, and let alone Henry cavill I think Jessica he once described him as
like just the word handsome, embodiment in human flesh. He looks like drawing
of Superman. Yeah, Like the idea of these people being as socially awkward
as Clark is supposed to be always felt off to me in some way.
Jack Quwaide's voice I sew as I think a I associate with that kind of
character, but also I just think his voice is perfect for that kind of
character, in part because I mean, he's maybe like one hundred and forty
pounds soaking wet, like the man is not the Superman build, and I
think hasn't lived the Superman life because of it. Like he is just the
perfect actor for me, and I think make me feel like Clark Kent is
a much more relatable character than I normally ever would. So I disagree about
Christopher Reeve. And I think back to there's a clip that often goes around
and goes semi viral every year or so where I think it's since Superman two,
where he or Clark is about to tell Lois his secrets Superman. Oh
that's in one, okay, Yeah, and he takes off his glasses and
his posture changes, his voice changes, and he's talking as Superman, saying
Lois I have something to say, and then he changes his mind or something,
puts the glasses back on, shrinks back down, and then turns back
into Clark again, like, oh, I'm coming lois that his acting is
so good in that, Like he is two different people right there, two
different characters. So I I understand what you mean about the size of a
person, Like you can't really get around that, like to have the same
person play both characters. But I think Christopher Reeve did credit to the dual
nature and transformation personally, that's possible. As I've mentioned before in the Building
with a Man, so I saw him in person at three years old,
so he was a literal giant, which made him a man in the world,
and my daddy sued him, which I had a lot of fun with
the nursery school. But that's a whole other story. But anyway, Jessica,
you were gonna say, oh, yeah, I think the versions that
handle that, Like, first of all, I am very much in the
family of or in the camp of That's just how Superman works, Like he
puts on glasses and everybody's schooled and we're just gonna have to believe, like
that's just And also he can fly, like it's just part of the baked
into the concept of Superman, and like you know, pictures will go around
of like Zoe Daschanel with her bangs pushback, and it's like, I've never
seen that woman in my life. So really like he's just seeing someone a
certain way. Yeah, we can be fooled, Like I do think it's
as plausible as anything else, But I also think that the best takes on
Superman are the ones that acknowledge that he is actually like this big beefy,
Like this is a huge slab of Kansas beef who's also really nice and polite.
He just happens to like wear a suit jacket that's a little too big
and he kind of hunches, and maybe he's a little clumsy, and like
I'm thinking of in the in the stage musical It's a Bird, It's a
plane, It's Superman, which is a huge flop and it's terrible. Like
I'm not saying that's a good adaptation, but there's literally a whole makeover song
in which the female character who's not Lois is like it's called You've Got Possibilities,
and she's basically like, look at you. This the problem is not
you. The problem is how you present yourself. Oh cute, which of
course he's doing on purpose, but like it's an acknowledgement that, yeah,
he can have the same body and then just like radiate out, yeah,
a different persona. So she does the she's all that to him, and
like if you just take off your glasses, Yes, it's great. I
mean it's terrible, it's also great and watching and maybe and I'd love to
hear more of the thought process because my guess is that in previous animated Superman's
they have found a voice actor who is who can play Superman. And it
felt like to me, like I don't think anyone would have ever associated Jack
Quaid with Superman before this show, but I think associating Jack Quaid with Clark
Kent makes perfect sense. Like that's kind of what I'm saying. It feels
he feels like a character who fits Clark Kent perfectly. And they can also
pull off Superman in a way that like Henry cavill is Superman and Christah Reeve
and like, yeah, and maybe they are good enough actors to pull off
the other side as well, but quaite at least for me, And and
again maybe it's just because I associate them so much with some of his other
characters, but he just to me is much more Clark Kent forward. Yeah,
I mean, we kind of don't know if Henry Cavill could pull off
Clark Kent because he was only Clark for like thirty seconds in those movies,
and twenty seven of those seconds involved him getting into a bathtub with a shoes
on, So it's all just like ten that didn't happen. It's interesting that
you're talking about specifically like voice actors and how they play Superman and Clark Kent
because this goes all the way back to the forties and the Superman Radio Show
and Bud Collier, who voiced Superman on the radio show, which ran for
like over a decade. It was hugely successful and had hundreds of episodes,
but it was his idea to drop his voice an octave when he switched between
Clark and Superman. And you can literally hear him do it in every single
episode because something will happen and he'll go, this looks like a job for
Superman, and it's it's incredible to hear because you're like, oh, that's
oh, he did it, like it to hear that transformation. You can
really you can see it, you feel it, and it's informed literally every
Superman performance since. But it started on the radio. Yeah, And I
feel like they haven't really gotten there on this show yet because he starts the
show as just Clark Kent and kind of is in the process of developing Superman,
like in front of our eyes. So I think he might have even
had that weird awkward like has to like whoa like what goes way down intentionally
like when he's when he's discovered, So he's not quite there. I think
we'll see more of that, perhaps of him like deliberately changing mm. Yeah,
definitely. And that's one thing that I think is really interesting about this
show, and that I really like the characters are so young, Like they
are so young. This is younger, I mean twenty, Yeah, they're
Lois says she's twenty three and is the first job out of college territory.
It's there, yeah, and she's been there for a year, so she
might be a year older than Clark and Jimmy are. It's also the first
time that Jimmy is the same age as Clark and Lois, so Jimmy is
really that Jimmy is actually the age we usually see him at. But Clark
and Lois are so much younger than we normally see them. Like even in
the Superman movie the Christopher Reeboe, he's thirty. He's canonically thirty in that
movie because he's eighteen when he goes to the Fortress of Solitude and then he's
just hanging out there listening to Jorrel for twelve years, eating a lot of
polar bears. I think, like, there's not much protein up there,
but who knows. Maybe those are the last years where he goes to college
and he dates a mermaid, which is what happens in the comics. But
like in every other take, right, who doesn't date a mermaid in college?
In every other take, you have a Clark who's like he does.
He has like a gap year. He travels the world, he learns how
to do what he does. He doesn't have any of that experience. Lois
doesn't have any journalistic experience what's soever. And it can sometimes be like sometimes
I want to smack all of them and be like, go make copies and
get coffee. You were interns. Stop it when they go to that party
and they're asking questions of all these rich socialites. Oh my god. Oh
no. I will say, just from that perspective, one of my favorite
comedic beats, because again, they could have oversold it but they didn't,
is when Jimmy now has his interns because of the Firebird project and he complains
to Perry about it, and like, I have never seen dead pan and
animation done quite so well, but they animated the perfect dead pan face,
and I was like, yep, that's that's it. It's so good.
But it also goes back to what you were saying that, like this show,
I'm not exactly sure who the audience is, but like they literally have
four to ten year olds. I'm sorry, Flips eleven, but children like
working at the paper were supposed to take it pretty seriously. So I think,
yeah, it's a kid friendly show for sure. But going back to
the idea of Clark and Lewis being so young, I think it also like
it's something that I try to remember when I'm like frustrated with them. It's
like they don't know what they're doing. Their children give them time, like
right. I feel like Lois in particular, like her she's she's kind of
a maniac. She's always a maniac, but she's kind of earned it in
most of the time when we see her, she's like, it's like,
well, okay, being completely unhinged has gotten you several pulletzers, so go
with God. And she's not there yet. And so when she does like
bonker stuff and it's like what what are you? What are you? What
are you doing? Well, I guess it's going to get you a pulletzer
someday, Like she hasn't she hasn't ripened, you know. Yeah, Like
when I think about the Christopher Reeve movies, and I think this is a
little bit in some of the other versions, but especially in like Margot Kidder
Lois Lane. To me, you could put her into a Hallmark Christmas movie
as the career driven city girl who needs a guy in a plaid hat to
teach her the true meaning of Christmas and it would be a perfect fit.
Like that's exactly the dynamic she has, where where Chris Reeve Clark Kent Superman
is the one helping her to like, you know, maybe you can like
open up to people more. I'm very much the Hallmark Christmas movie dynamic.
I want to say more about her his relationship with Lois Lane, but real
quick on the Hallmark thing. It's funny that you said that, because I
have actually seen a post on social media where somebody was like, I want
a reverse Hallmark movie where the corn fed boy next door moves to the city
and falls for a like fast talking, career driven, like driven career woman,
and somebody else is like Superman like it is a reverse Hallmark movie,
and I was like, oh, that's why I like it so much,
because I am pro city and anti leaving it. Ever anyway, sorry,
go ahead, as I look at up my suburban wasteland, I understand.
But though it turns out I like, you know space. But let me
talk about his relationship with Jimmy somewhat, because you're right, it always feels
in a lot of the things I've seen of you know, him and Lois
are contemporaries of each other. She has much Clark and Lowess are contemporaries.
She has much more journalistic experience, so she's kind of his boss and kind
of pushing him around, and that helps feed some the awkwardness. But then
Jimmy is like this kid who they've kind of adopted, who hangs around with
him a lot. I mean, he's twenty one, he's an adult,
but like you know, oh yes, mister you know missus Lowis and stuff
like that. Well, exactly, maybe it's really unclear. That's fair.
That's fair here though, like I already pushed back a bit even on what
you said, Riki, I think it's intentional that My Adventures of the Superman
could be Jimmy just as much as it is Lois, because we've had episodes
that are about like where Jimmy was kind of jealous of you know, you
and I have this relationship that goes all the way back to college. Like
it. There's kind of a trope recently of like the guy, his best
friend and his girl and the three of them form, like, you know,
the Scooby Gang. And that's what this very much feels to me,
and that for Clark, the two relationships are very equal for him, and
that they're they're both dealing with their complexities and their problems and stuff like that,
and we're seeing a whole new set of them now with what role in
season two that we'll get into a different conversation. But what do you guys
think of his relationship with Jimmy because it feels to me like again making them
equals and making them like not even that they meet at the Planet, but
they were like, you know, college roommates and maybe even like friends from
earlier. That again, it really helps to humanize Clark Kent in a way
that we don't normally get. Yeah, I mean, I love it.
Jimmy has always felt a little underutilized. I think in the you know again,
we're like, if we talk about movies, they're often like, isn't
a Jimmy character or there's just a cameo like in one scene with Harry.
So having Jimmy Olsen be a fully formed character is I think secondarily important to
having Lois here. And as Yeah, as for the contemporary like same age
thing, I dig that we do have kind of like younger Jimmy stand ins
in the what were they called again, the Newskid Legion? Yeah, yeah,
have we ever seen have we ever seen the Metropolis version of the Baker
Street Regulars, Because that's what very much felt like to me. Have you
seen those comics? Oh yeah, they're there. They go back to the
forties. I mean, I can I can definitely gush about the news Kid
Legion because I'm so thrilled that they're in the show. But I do want
to talk about Jimmy, but I don't want to cut you off. No
good, I'm good, sorry, Yeah, no, I I mean,
I'm We're still on the same wave length. I absolutely agree. Like Jimmy
has been underutilized that you're right, Like he shows up for a cameo in
every movie and then Perry goes, don't call me chief, and that's it.
That's what he does. Sometimes he has a bigger role in a TV
show, but not always, and sometimes agent. Sometimes he is a CIA
agent, like what Sometimes we have whatever the hell happened in Smallville with him?
Like who even knows when he is. He's been a linkchin of the
Superman universe since well so originally he shows up as like a copy boy for
like one issue in the forties, we don't see him for a million years.
He really became a major character in the radio show, and it took
him a while to sort of establish that presence in comics. But he also
had his own long running comic book, Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, and was
like a huge character for the fifties sixties, seventies and adaptations, like modern
adaptations don't seem to know what to do with him. And I think that
the show like boiling it down to he is Clark's best friend instead of like
he has to be sort of this junior cadet character, but he is Clark's
best friend. Clark needs a best friend. Was really smart. I think
this is the best Jimmy we've ever gotten, Like, there's no comparison,
by far, the best Jimmy we've ever gotten in any adaptation. He is,
like you said, a completely fully realized character. He is the funniest
character on the show. He has all the best lines, he's all the
best gags, but he's also like a three dimensional human being. There's this
moment. I know we're mostly focusing on season one here, but there's a
moment with him and Clark in season two where they're like in that they're at
a Star Labs presentation and they're in this anti gravity pod and they're like floating
around and Clark tells Jimmy. He gives them a little speech of like you
saved me by like the first day we met, because you treated me like
I was normal and you were my friend and you accepted me and you always
have which like guys, I tear it up, like, yeah, that
was really ud. I just love each other so much. Yeah, And
honestly, after growing up seeing years and years of men only like relate to
each other by punching each other in the nuts and telling jokes about each other,
but with your girlfriend you can actually have vulnerability. Like we're about like
five or ten years into this becoming a lot more normal, but still every
time I see a male character have a male best friend and they have genuine
emotions and genuine emotional problems with each other and work through it because their friendship
matters, I love it. It's so powerful. Yeah, Like they talk
to each other, they confide in each other, they hug, and I
know we already talked about it, but the moment where Jenny's like, oh,
so about how youres Superman and Clerk's like, wait, what why didn't
you say anything? Jimmy's like it seemed like something you were sensitive about.
So good, so good, so good, and and I'm glad he got
that moment, yes, like he he deserves it after his decades of just
being yelled at by Perry and not doing anything else. And adaptations, and
like the episode he's kidnapped by Monsieur Mala and the Brain and they're like yeah,
and so appreciate you enough. Like absolutely every Jimmy plotline, the episode
where he's just hanging out with Steve Lombard and he's like, I am not
the Steve of the group. They're all choice, Like they're all so bad.
Yeah, I mean just the like, there's a lot I don't like
about season two that's gonna be a whole other episode, but just the running
ticker of how he is spending his money is both so depressing and so relatable
and so lovable. I will push back just a bit that I think this
is the best Jimmy Olson we've ever gotten in a Superman focused story. Oh,
Nick codd Brooks in Supergirl. It is possible that because in my mind
at least, he is the same like definition of handsome that Henry cavill is,
and I'll watch him on screen and anything. But I also just love
his characters so much. But yees putting that aside, ASTERIX totally with you,
this is the best Jimmy we've gotten. Well, don't call him Jimmy,
call him James James. Well, yeah, that's James. It's different
gods. Okay, that's fair, that's fair. That's fair. Jimmy is
really fun. James also is a smoke show. But we can move on.
I know. I think the actor is wonderful. I think that the
character started out strong and then they veered away from like they decentered him in
a way that I found very frustrating, and I stopped watching the show because
in part because of that. I was going to say, it started really
good, but then is the definition of pretty much everything about the Arrow verse
lit on that show. But again, an actual point for a while,
so go ahead. What I think is very important with Jimmy, especially on
this show, is his job or his hobby, like whichever you want to
call it. Because traditionally Jimmy Olsen has just been like an Aaron boy for
Perry. He's been a photographer, right and in a lot of like the
eighties, nineties stuff, and now like in this one, he is an
intern slash Aaron boy. But like the important part of his character is that
he's a podcaster and that's what gets in the enormous wealth and he becomes like
the head of as all podcasters have is he becomes ahead of like the Daily
Planet's audio division or something like that. It's more a YouTube creator than a
podcast. But that, like photographer Jimmy has played out, I feel like,
especially because like are there still photographers, Yes, there are, but
I feel like a lot of reporters probably take their own pictures because of smartphones
too, Right, So I feel like this traditional Jimmy Olsen photographer kind of
had to go away, and this replacement works for me, And and like
this is the way characters and properties like this have to evolve with the times.
You know, like Matthew and I have talked about what do you do
with Magneto when you know the Holocaust is one hundred years ago at a certain
point, Like the stories and the characters have to evolve to fit whatever is
like more relevant or plausible within your timeline and technology in this case, Yeah,
no, absolutely, It's it's just like how I've always wanted Jimmy to
just have known for a long time that Clark was Superman. I've been saying,
like he should be like at the forefront of whatever the Daily Planet's social
media presence is, Like he is that guy that Perry's like, I don't
understand you do it, and he does because Jimmy is a ridiculous human being
and always has been. But he is also very tapped into metropolis, and
he's very tapped into what is what is trendy and what is like vital and
vibrant and interesting to people, And that's absolutely something. I mean, he's
also conspiracy theorist, or is he Like he was right about aliens and a
lot of the stuff that they have in saying are easter eggs. He's like,
oh, there's mermaids. Yeah, there are clerk dated one in college,
Like, he's right, you guys, everything he says is right.
Oh, I'm convinced they're going to find the sasquatch that he wanted to go
on that camping trip, but quere his friends very rudely, I will say,
ditched himself. Ru. Yeah, he is right about Task Force X,
like he's right to me. The one thing about that that throws me
a bit is because you're I think they've done a good job updating the show,
but also one of the core conceits of the show seems to be because
I think this was very true in the forties and fifties and for a lot
of history, this is what we believed, is that the media is fundamentally
good and a fundamentally a good institution. Here i'm talking about like media can
refer to like any video audio project. I'm talking here specificly about like the
reporter's news. That's a perspective that a lot of people on both sides of
the aisle have very very different views on today, and I appreciate that they're
doing a little bit about the cynicism of some of it. Vicky Vale outside
of a Batman property just feels entirely wrong to me, but that might be
just my own biases. And they have Steve as kind of like the egotistical
reporter, and like I like Perry, so I don't want it to be
from him. But at some point, probably maybe in a later season or
something like that, or in just a different show, I would like to
see more of the like where it's not just I don't believe you, so
I'm not going to publish a story, but our corporate masters have, you
know, what they want the media to say that and what you Lois or
Superman is right, our clerk writing doesn't quite fit that. Like I I
don't want everything to reflect the modern day. But like the image of them,
of the newspaper media that this show is presenting is the one part about
it that still feels very dated to me. Is maybe the best part way
to say that, Yeah, because who reads a newspaper? I mean what
you're saying. But I think, like that's why the Jimmy angle is important,
that they're breaking into new media right online. It is audience right,
like he's doing I Steve does videos, yeah, yeah, yeah, likely
filming stuff yeah okay, yeah. Like I don't think there should ever be
a stop the presses moment in this because like it's it's just unclicking. I
think they should, like somebody should, like Lois should run in and say
stop the presses, and Perry's like, what, it's been online for twenty
minutes. Who cares what we print? Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.
So I think it's a couple of other things we're going to follow up
with in our members only section. I just want to say a quick word
about representation and I know, oh good, did we want to talk about
the news kid legion? Yes, go for it, go for it.
So well, this is this is actually a good segue because the news Kid
Legion originally in the comics was the Newsboy Legion, and they've been around since
the forties. They were all white, so they were created by Jack Kirby
and Joe Simon, and they hung out with a superhero called the Guardian,
who was a square job superhero with a shield, which may sound familiar because
he was a ripoff of Captain America. But Jack Herby and Joe Simon also
created Captain America, so I guess it's not really ripping off, it's just
kind of being lazy. And so the original Newsboys were big words. Who's
a smart one we have in the show, Gabby who loved talk, Scrapper
who loved to fight. That's Patty in the show. And Tommy, whose
personality was that his name was Tommy, like the most useless character. And
then they had like a bunch of adventures. They're really cute comics like throughout
in the early forties. And then Kirby and Simon went off and fought in
World War Two and the characters kind of disappeared. And then in the early
seventies, Kirby came back to d C after having created basically the entire Marvel
universe, and he brought back the Newsboy Legion. But he was like,
well, it's been thirty years. So actually they all grew up and then
they each had a son who looks exactly like them and has the same name
and the same nickname, and they get into hijinks with Jimmy Olsen. But
at that point they added a member because Kirby came over to DC and he
was like, it's looking really white here, uh, And he created like
half a dozen black characters basically within a year, and so he added the
new member of the news By Legion's name is Flip a DipPA f l i
p p A d i Ppa. This is a white man a diversity,
okay, because he's really into scuba diving, which so you have the smart
one, the one who talks a lot, the one who fights a lot,
and the scuba diver, which like every group needs one, not like
every group needs one, and you got to give him credit. It's not
a stereotype for anyone anywhere, and like in that genuinely, like imagine if
you met a ten year old who was really into scuba diving and like wore
a scuba suit everywhere like that would actually be so cute, And so they've
been like they're like kind of minor characters, but they've stuck around in and
out of the DC universe, mostly in the Superman books, most hanging out
with Jimmy in the ensuing fifty years. And when they popped up on the
show, like, I was so excited to see them, and I love
that three of them have been gender bent. I think M's agreeing it,
going, yeah, I think all of them. It seems like I have
been race bent. Like they really use these characters to add more diversity of
the show. Flip is just called Flip now, which is an improvement,
and they're adorable, and it's just like it's such a nice it's a use
of a really deep cut easter egg that also vastly improves the Superman world that
they've like taken from the comics and that they actually used to tell stories with
it, so well, the kind of Superman's story you're going to tell,
whether it's more romantic comedy or it's more of the DEMI God, I think
I just want to create the Flip to Snyder scale, you know, like
how much does it say Flip Superman. How much is this is Zack Snyder
Superman with Flip and Snyder being the two extremes? Yeah, Or like,
if you're going to include a Jack Kirby character in a character that Jack Kirby
created in nineteen seventy one in your Superman project, is it going to be
Flip a DipPA or is it going to be Steppenwolf? And there's a current
answer and it's not Steppenwolf. That's fair, that's fair. Last things I
wanted to bring up. You mentioned Breaky briefly, the Korean character lowest Nan
being Korean. I'd love to hear more about that. Meant to you.
I do want to say for me, like the next episode in season five,
In season two, episode five, there there's sort of like who's the
most eligible bachelor bachelorette And one of the characters is just non binary and present,
Like if you looked at them and didn't know that, I think you
might read them as female. But they're definitely someone androgynists, but not entirely,
which is nice also because non binary does not have to mean androgynists.
But they're just they're just you know, mentioned with that they pronoun and nothing
else is said about it, and that to me was so meaningful because,
like I've talked about other non binary characters who have a really important role,
I forget the character's name, but in Shira being one of my favorites,
but also just having this level of representation of yeah, there's just this one
side character who's not even a part of the big thing, but they have
they then pronouns. We're gonna use their then pronouns and no one's gonna mention
it as anything worth mentioning is just fantastic. Yeah, that is good at
the Asian lowest thing. I mean, what more do I need to say,
but I will say. What I will say is that Superman being a
literal alien, they often tell these stories and especially when he's in conflict with
Lex Lex Luthor is often very anti alien, right, and these stories can
be read in an American context as being anti immigrant, anti you know,
other. So to have Lois now be confirmed as Korean is going to play
very interestingly in season two with the way that they are setting up the Superman
Lex Luthor conflict, and I'm very curious to see how they use her character
and her voice to address this. And I really hope they do. I
hope that it's not just like this token yeah, like she's Korean, because
I feel like she she does have she does need to say something important about
America, like as a concept and as about a place where people aspire to
come to and to be a part of, like even if they don't look
like you know, everyone around them. So I really hope that they handle
this carefully and do that justice with her character, because it's We're at this
time in the real world where we are talking about these issues, and it's,
in my opinion, like it has never been addressed like as directly as
this show could address it because of the whiteness of Lois because Superman is white,
and so to like have this parallel and then to have, you know,
like Jimmy Olsen being black, which we have seen more of. You
mentioned the Supergirl TV show. He was black in that, and so I
don't know when that happened, but it sounds like there's also been Asian Lewis's
in appearing in versions in comics. I'm reading about one called American Alien,
which again, like that just kind of directly draws that line of literal space
alien to you know, alien you know, as as we call them in
in terms of immigration. So I am, like, I'm a little worried,
but I am hopeful and I'm I'm going to put my faith in this
team because of how they have handled this so far, and we'll see how
it goes. And and also like you know what, fans like deal with
it, right, Like I know there are always going to be people who
get upset with something like this, but why tell the same Clark can't Lois
Lane stories over and over right in the same way. And this is a
way that you can have a character that of Lowis Lane that still has a
through line to the lowest Lanes of the past, and to tell a new,
different story because like, yeah, we shouldn't just tell the same stories.
Yeah, now, I very much agree with all of that, and
I think there's so much interesting about the immigration experience there to be talked about,
and just on the like the like you know, fans get over it.
I have to say, I think Asian Lewis Lane Korean Lewis Lane specifically
followed directly in the next episode by the non binary character, is very intentional
of the like, Okay, we're gonna piss off fans already with this and
have some of the idiots out themselves. Let's just, you know, do
it twice, like right in a row. Beca's like like the fact that
neither one of those things had been mentioned at all, Like there'd been a
couple of other I think one or two side characters had mentioned like that.
I don't remember who, but there was some man who talked about his husband.
I think maybe doctor I've not doctor Ivo, but like someone who worked
for him. There was definitely a man making reference to his husband in a
way that was again very very like not sub There's definitely a kid that Clark
Rowski is at one point who has two moms. Yeah, oh yeah,
yeah, that's your true So yeah, no, it's been great. There
was it is that good. I was just gonna say, there's actually there's
a graphic novel that came out last year called Girl taking Over a Lois Lane
story by Sarah Koon and Ariel Joblanos, who are both Asian and Lois is
Asian in that story, and I was actually at like there was a book
launch for it here in the city and they were asked like did d C
pushback on this? I'm making Lois Asian, and apparently d C said,
no, that's fine as long as she has black hair, Like that was
their rule, that was their requirement, which is funny because like that's not
even consistent, like Amy Adams does not have black hair. But I guess
for the comics, that's their only rule. So you know, sorry haters,
but Lois is black hair, so she is DC approved non black hair
for well, I guess they've already done with ab amass say, like,
because I also think of the dark hair, the black hair being essential to
Superman himself. Yeah, you can't have a blonde Superman. That'd be weird.
Yeah, I need to be Rian, which the two Jews creating him.
We're not. We're trying not to make so. And I'm also hopeful
for like future stories because now we have you know, in a lot of
the comics and the TV show, the other TV shows, Well, Lois
and Clark get married, they have kids, and then we get this next
generation. Like I believe there's one comic right now that is Jonathan Kent.
Their son is Superman, right, and so like as we get more stories
with Asian Lois in theory, we get stories where Asian Lewis marries Clark Kent.
They have they have a half Asian, half Kryptonian kid who becomes Superman.
So maybe I finally get my wish Sunday. Well, and I mean
especially because like most of the stories I know about Superman having a son,
it's a clone that's been made for nefarious purposes, who he then adopts to
some extent, not necessarily a biological son of Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
well his his clone Superboy uh con l or Connor Kent. His other biological
parents is Lex Luthor. So yeah, but I don't ship them. I'm
sorry, I think that I staid. Take that back. I shipped them
in Smallville. Small vill Yeah, like they had a moment, but it
didn't well, it didn't work out. Honestly, I feel like in my
adventures at Superman, Lex is clearly way more into Jimmy because he's like Jimmy,
Jimmy such great advice, Let's be best friends forever. I will also
say, we're gonna put you off topic here, so I'm gonna say this
that y'all comment, and then I'm gonna pull us back to wrap up,
and then we'll get to the bonus content of the like, it is also
interesting to me how now there's a couple of different aspects of the story that
other versions had changed pretty dramatically, but now we've just kind of accepted that
that's the change that that we're mostly going with. To me, one of
the most one of the ones that I'm most against is for me, I
want Lex Luthor to be Gene Hackman, not Jesse Eisenberg. I do not
like the young, feisty kid Lex Luthor. And maybe this one will be
better because I actively despise the one in the Snyder version, making you very
similar to most of the Snyder versions. But when I saw that, I
think I had a thought of is this supposed to be Lex? In a
we're doing Jesse Eisenberg again, and I really hoped it wasn't so. And
you're looking at me like, I think Jesse Eisenberg is the wrong name,
but like there's two young male actors who Okay, it is Jesse. So
yeah, I'm just putting that out there that I don't love young Lex.
But we'll see where it goes. I mean, I agree with you that
Jesse Eisenberg's performance is just different. It was different, just wretched. He
made some choices. I don't agree with those choices. I don't want to
watch Lex force feed. But was it a jelly bean to a minion or
what? Just a weird performance? Is like a stone? Yeah, it
was so weird Anyway, Joker is a great character, a great character,
but he tried to do the Joker. I'm like, you're let's see,
it's a different guy. But I'm fine with Lex being roughly the same ANSI
as Clark because that has a super long history, like in the comics,
and it depends on the universe. It's been rebooted back and forth many times,
but there's a long history of them growing up together in Smallville, like
that's that's not that was not invented by Snyder and it wasn't invented by Smallville,
this Smallville TV show. So I don't really have a problem with it.
My thing about Lex is I prefer him as a corrupt businessman who is
a genius scientist, but like that kind of I don't want him in like
a power suit cackling maniacally. I want him to be like chairman of the
board. And again, I think he's a very young Lex moving into that
role. And I always got the impression of him like that. Him and
the Amanda. By the way, Amanda Waller is done so dirty in the
show, and I'll talk about that at a different time, But to me,
he's You're right. He's the corrupt businessman who gets rich helping people like
Amanda Waller who are actually afraid of Superman, and he he sells the fear
of Superman as a way of making money. He's not actually an anti Superman
zealot in in the way that he's portrayed in this which but we'll get We
needed a whole episode on that because, like I said, like, I'll
just say the brief part of it. No, No, I'm gonna hold
off on it, hold off on to say I agree with you. Yeah,
that'll be part two. So I think you're kind of wrapping up to
the actual question you started with, Riky. I feel like we're all saying
yes, right that to something like for a good Superman story, we need
Lois Lane, maybe we need Jimmy as well. We need the characters who
relate to Clark Kent in human ways to make him the character we want to
watch. Yeah, and even for movies, like we talked talked about the
dichotomy and how movies have to have a certain balance of action and that choose
into the time that you can have the human element. But I feel like
the Richard Donner Christopher Reeve version of Superman the movie is well remembered, beloved,
and they have a lot of Lois Lane in it. It is an
important part of that movie in a way that most of the more modern incarnations
just don't do just justice. Aha. So yeah, like I you know,
James Gun, I like his movies, and so I'm going to give
him the benefit of the doubt with his Superman movie and we'll just see what
kind of balance he strikes. I continue to agree with Riky on everything so
good, so that's large in my perspective as well, although not always so
well. I think it's gonna be me against the two of you when we
discussed season two, but we will, in a bonus action have a few
thoughts on two characters who Jessica and myself did not love the inclusion of or
representation of. That we'll discuss, but for now, Jessica, for those
who haven't heard from you in a little while and want to remind themselves other
than a book, coming out in May. Where can people find your stuff
right now? Well, right now, I'm on the site formerly known as
Twitter as well as Blue Sky as Jess Plumber, and you can find my
writing about Superman and other comics and books and such at bookrinot dot com.
Cool cool, And of course you can find all the ways to support this
podcast on our show notes. Give us feedback. We'd love to hear what
you think. We'd love to know what your ideas are. We really want
to hear all that, And of course you become a member. We're trying
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so much. We have spoken