Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Rojas. Open Minds Radio is a UFO
news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your
host, Alejandro Roja. Thank you, mister Bob Dean. This is Alejandro
Rojas with Open Minds Radio, the fourth most popular radio program out of all
of them on blog Talk. That's what we used to broadcast our podcast,
fourth out of something like over forty thousand shows. And I know I make
up large numbers all the time, but it is really forty thousand. If
I was being silly and making it up, I would have said we were
fourced out of sixteen trillion. And if blog Talk had sixteen trillion radio programs,
we probably still would be for us because we are that good. Thank
you for joining us. And we're only that good because of all of our
wonderful listeners, because they're so inspiring, all the nice notes that you guys
send us and everything. I'm very very happy that you guys like the show
and we do this for you to get the information out. And we have
an incredible guest today with just a ton of information, and that is James
Mostly maybe some of you haven't heard of him, but he's actually been into
UFOs for decades and decades and decades. At the beginning of our interview,
I asked him about nineteen forty seven, he was around then when all of
this started, and he says, well, I'm not what's a new upologist,
and which he wasn't, but he was around and to hear the stories,
and that in itself is pretty astonishing. I think, you know,
there's not many people who can tell you. Oh yeah, I remember when
Kenneth Arnold saw thoseos. So very interesting guy. He started a magazine in
the fifties with some friends called Saucer News, which is kind of was kind
of more along the lines of open Minds, very serious and everything. But
we'll talk about his evolution and how he evolved into in the late seventies to
start up his own kind of newsletter called Saucer Smeir and Saucer Smir. He's
one of these guys. There's only like one other person, well, no,
there's a couple other people. Nancy Talbot's kind of like this. She's
more online. But doctor Leo Sprinkle, who we've had on the show,
one of the original he's been around for decades, one of the original abduction
researchers, a psychologist. He isn't online at all. You know, they
never made the switch to the Internet and to computers. And that's the same
with James Moseley. So if you want to get Saucer Smeir, you actually
have to send him, you know, a check or a love donation.
He calls sarcastically. He'll see. He's kind of a funny guy, and
he'll send you his newsletter that's printed out. He types it out, prints
it and sends it to you. So it is old school. So we'll
talk to Mosley about the years and years of UFOs and mostly around the fifties,
and what it was like back then and how he got started and how
he got started with Saucer Schmir. So that's coming up very exciting. He's
a great guy, and it's invaluable to be able to talk to these people
who are around back then because there's not many left and they unfortunately, lots
of the people he refers to that he works with his colleagues, for instance,
are not around anymore. A couple of notes. Our last guest,
mister Greg Bishop from UFO mystic dot Com a great interview, and it's really
fun talking about Benawitz and Dolce and all of that stuff. He's going to
be at a conference that is actually being held put on by Ohaio Kawa,
who used to run a conference in Dolce, but now he's moved it to
Albertquerque, which is a wise move because Albuquerque's a bigger place and I love
New Mexico. I like talking about Albuquerque because I miss it. Incredible food
if you like Mexican food, Amazing stuff at all the restaurants here. Anyways,
his conference is called wake Up Now. It's kind of more of a
conspiracy UFO type thing, but Greg Bishop is going to be there and you
can find out more about that at wakeupnowconference dot com. And I don't think,
yeah, we don't have any open minds people speaking there. Forget what
I just said, just kidding. It should be good. We're going to
have people actually there selling some stuff if you want to buy some T shirts
and stuff, and you're going to be there also some bad news Contact in
the Desert. I was going to be out there talking about contact ease and
giant Rock, which is some of what James Mosley is going to be talking
about some of the stuff from the fifties. That was kind of fun.
But unfortunately, alas the Contact in the Desert is no longer. Unfortunately,
some of the people organizing it had some personal things coming up and they're not
going to be able to put that on anymore. That was going to be
held by mouf on La. However, we still have in Fresno the Mofon
Symposium coming up in July, so that'll be a lot of fun. Irvine,
Irvine, Oh, I said, Fresno, Irvine. And then finally,
who was that? Did you hear that? Noise? I said,
Irvine. We'll see if we can figure that out in a little bit.
The third conference, the conference that I was going to go talk at,
gets canceled, but the conference that Antonio and Michael are going to go talk
at, it has not been canceled yet hopefully it won't be. But that
is the Arizona UFO Sidings first annual Kingman Conference. So we haven't talked a
whole lot about that, but there are rumors. We've talked about the Frank
Scully book quite a bit, and in fact, James Mosley here again we
talked about Frank Scully because a lot of the crashes that supposedly have it happened
came from Frank Scully's book and including the Kingmen crash, so supposedly there's a
UFO crash back then. And now they've started up the first annual Kingman Conference
that's gonna be May sixth through the ninth, and choni Ol Khuneas and Michael
Shratt of Open Minds will be there and you can find out more about that
at Arizona ufosidings dot com Arizona UFO sidings dot com. You know another thing
that you're gonna find. You'll find some information on some of this stuff at
our website, but more importantly and more exciting, you're gonna find news the
daily UFO headlines, because there are UFOs in the news all over the world
all the time, and we have a specialist who stays on top of this
stuff every day. This guy is a flipin' genius. That is the little
voice that we heard a little while ago, which is Jason McClellan. Jason,
are you here? I am mister Alejandro. Greetings and hello everyone.
This is your Open Minds news brief from Monday, April twenty fifth, twenty
eleven, a recent video shows what appeared to be a dead extraterrestrial partially buried
in the Siberian snow. Two people walking near Riku, Russia, allegedly noticed
the body and recorded it with a video camera. According to The Daily Mail,
one of the witnesses stated, we couldn't believe it when we saw it.
The Daily Mail also pointed out that the area surrounding the location of this
body is a UFO hotspot where dozens of sightings are reported every year. The
Telegraph, the Daily Mail and other media outlets were sure to point out that
many had dismissed the dead alien video as an elaborate hoax from the very start.
But in response to the video, the Los Angeles Times and I have
to give the Times credit here. They don't usually respond most of the mainstream
media jumps on these videos in they're not very careful with the with holding back
their excitement. But the Los Angeles Times actually carefully and wisely stated we cannot
confirm any of these claims that this is real. It may very well be
a hoax. However, it is important to note that more than one million
people have watched the video on YouTube, real or not people are watching.
That's what the Los Angeles Times said. But last week news reports submerged,
announcing that two team boys did in fact create the alien in the video.
A spokesman from the Russian Interior Ministry confirmed that they had found the body in
the house of one of the boys, and, as the spokesman described,
it was lying under his bed and examination of it revealed it had been made
of breadcrumbs, which are covered in chicken skin. Oh and you have a
picture there. I've never nasty seen that picture. Nasty. Yeah, that's
gross. Somebody's left over dinner. Well, I think I heard a story
where the cops to someone said they thought it might be a baby, right,
dead baby. So the cops went over and said, hey, you
guys got a dead baby here in the They freaked. They're like, no,
no, it's not a baby, it's a chicken. Yeah, that's
why the cops were even looking into it. And they were sort of door
to door and found these teen boys hoaxters. It looks kind of weird,
and you could you see that not frequently, but the chicken skin has been
used before SKINNEVENI and Scabby Engross and the whole cryptozoological realm. Lots of dead
animal parts and bones are used to say that they're cryptozoological animals, right,
yeah, and who knows why people do this. I don't know why these
boys did it, but to get a million hits, well yeah, but
I don't know what that's going to do for them in Siberia. There's not
a whole lot going on in Siberia. But can tell people how cool you
are you got a million hits? Well, and it does Actually with their
channel, anything they're going to post is going to get hundreds of thousands of
hits probably from here on out. Yeah, when they they are really stupid
and then it'll die. Ah, but at least they've got some YouTube power
right now. I hope they use it wisely. Well, shame on them.
Shame on them for shame you little suns again to like those hoaxters.
Yeah, come on, you know the news. A professor from the University
of Missouri, Columbia wants Congress to look into the UFO issue. According to
AOL News, Bill Wickersham has called for open secrecy free US congressional hearings on
the ufoet matter to support his request. The adjunct professor of Peace Studies cites
the nineteen ninety nine Cometa Report. A thirteen member committee in France made up
of retired generals, scientists and space experts created this report which studied five hundred
UFO sidings from around the world, and this report concluded that some of the
UFO cases possibly had other worldly sources. But given the current political climate,
Wickersham told AOL News that he does not think a congressional hearing on UFOs has
much of a chance of happening right now. He went on to say,
and what's more, look at what happened to Dennis Kassinich. The giggle factor,
the ridicule, the ignorance, the apathy, denial, all these things
that's around this issue. It takes a lot of guts for a politician to
speak out on UFOs. Most politicians run from it, yep, and they
do. They run far and fast. So I don't I don't know how
much of a chance we have of a US congressional hearing on UFOs anytime soon.
But just s if something big happens, who was it? Oh?
It is just looking at stuff and dan akroy down, OK. It's like,
you know, one of these days a UFO is going to buy over
a stadium or something, and then these guys will not be able to ignore
it. And I think he's right, right, and we are having bigger
stories. I mean, they're not necessarily any bigger than what happened, that's
what has happened in the past, but they're getting a lot more attension.
Yeah, the mainstream media is covering a lot of these stories that come out
and it spreads like wild, ignoring them. So who knows, You're we
were onto something there. We might have one of these issueses that's considered to
be a bigger issue that forces people to pay attention. Yep, it's going
to happen, hope. So you know the news lots of different stories have
been circulating through the media in the past weeks. Is the result of the
FBI launching the Vault on their website. I like saying the vault. It
sounds menacing, but the vault makes it easy for people to browse through select
FBI files. One story that seemed to be popular last week was John F.
Kennedy and his supposed interest in UFOs. A history teacher named William Lester
recently wrote a book on the subject called a Celebration of Freedom JFK and the
New Frontier for the book Lester reference previously classified documents he obtained through Freedom of
Information Act requests. Two of these documents were allegedly written by Kennedy just ten
days before his assassination, one of which asked the CIA for UFO information.
Yeah, this has got big, big buzz last week, but it's nothing
new. Yeah, these files were not new, and the people said they
were new when they were not. And they were actually released in the seventies
from the hard work of Bruce mcabee who was an optical physicist for the Navy,
actually doctor Bruce mcabee who got these out in the late seventies or mid
seventies. And so they've been out for a while there. They're not anything
new, that is correct. But now they're out again, and now people
are saying that, you know, NSA has new documents out, which is
not the case either. They're referring to old files. But I don't give
a flip about the FBI. I don't give a flip about the NSA.
I don't give a flip about anything or near their name. The band Alejandro
Rojas, the Butthole Surfers that song. Sorry, but they said the bad
word. They didn't say flip. That's okay, as you know, I
don't say bad words, and you changed it for radio. Yeah, and
that's how I sing it too, because I like to sing that song sometimes
for fun and I use flip. Good work. But it is interesting since
the vault, you know, And it seems lately the media is Yeah,
though they seem to get excited by conspiracy and you would think that reputable media
outlets wouldn't, but they're launching onto a lot of these stories that are total
conspiracy. And it might be a trend in media because these sensational stories are
growing. You have papers like The Sun, which is a complete tabloid over
sensationalizes everything is often not accurate, but they're the biggest paper in the UK.
So as American media starting to do that to sensationalize and become more tabloid
to get more ratings, I think, So, what are the biggest stories
these days, Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohan. You know, it's all of
this kind of stuff. The royal wedding. The royal wedding, that's the
big news right now. When you mentioned the Sun, so I'm thinking about
the royal wedding. Yeah, that reminds me of White wedding, Billy Idol.
All right, we'll move on. Alejandro. Here's a story, and
and I don't know what to take from this story. My emotions are being
played with here. But we talked about this week after week about how we
feel we should go back to the Moon. We want to get back to
the Moon, but all these missions that are brought up are either going to
asteroids or trying to get to Mars, putting the Moon aside. Well,
apparently we are going back to the Moon, right, The National Journal reported
last week the Congress passed a twenty eleven spending bill that will allow NASA's Constellation
program to move forward with plans for a manned lunar mission. The Orion space
castle that NASA plans to use for the man lunar mission was unveiled last month,
so we'll see. I mean, this is just one report, but
supposedly the manned Moon mission is back on the charts at least, well I
know they were kind of working on it where they're using essentially old stuff though,
So if we go to the Moon, what we're going to see is
rocket taking up capsules, the same capsules we went to the Moon with,
or well not the same shape, the same look, the same They're gonna
parachute down in the sky and land in the ocean, just like before.
So we're going old school, which I guess is in two bad because we
weren't done with that and it's cheap or whatever. But yeah, total old
school. So they're they're really doing all of this stuff and hopefully going back
to the Moon, which makes it just makes sense to make a base on
the Moon, right then go to Mars. But it is kind of embarrassing
for us, and it gives us a bad face to the extraterrestrials on the
Moon. Yeah, because they're going to see us rolling up in our nineteen
fifties car and they're gonna laugh at us. Well, because you guys haven't
progressed at all. Yeah, and you know you were here, you left,
now you're back. We're messing with our emotions. Yeah, and we're
not showing up in anything new and fancy. It's the same old stuff.
Hopefully they've got something new up their sleeve. Yeah, but you know what,
we didn't use that old stuff that was really cool that much, Right,
because I mean the rover, the moon rover, and that was cool
stuff, right, So maybe we'll pull my fingers across it. We do
go back to the moon. That makes so much sense, and maybe that
makes it even closer to people being able to go to the Moon, you
know, recreational wise. Right. Is that a company that NASA is most
likely going to use for that is SpaceX in the SpaceX rockets, and SpaceX
is working to help propel space tourism as well. So we can go there,
to you, my friend, and we'll go there and see what these
NaSTA guys are doing. In other NASA news, NASA scientists recently discovered an
underground dry ice lake containing more carbon dioxide than was originally thought to exist.
The underground dry ice deposit is roughly the size of Lake Superior. Scientists suspect
that some of this carbon dioxide was once in Mars' atmosphere, making it denser.
Scientists were able to locate the dry ice lake by using ground penetrating radar
from the Mars Reconnaissance orbiter. Wow, so they found these dry ice lakes
before on Mars, but this one's the biggest. This is just like the
the movie that made the guy Governor Schwarzenheger. I think it was because of
this this movie. That's why he's the one where he goes to Mars and
well, you don't know if you put those heaters. Oh yeah, that's
in question. They put those heaters in the carbon dioxide lake, which go
into the atmosphere and which changes the atmosphere when his face, he's all in
his face is gonna explode, and luckily the carbon dioxi I had gotten the
sky enough and he saved his life. I think they're actually remaking that movie
too, which is a shame, is making a lot of his movies.
I always forget the name of that movie. It's actually total recall, Yes,
total recall. They're they're remaking some of the The Conan, the Barbarian,
You're going back. I don't think you could remake a Ernold swartzneg Yeah,
there's lots of If you do something new, people come on, people
are out of ida. Nobody has an rid thought. I could come up
with some good ideas. I always do drive into work. I'm always thinking
that'd be a great movie and be crazy and fun and iom too. But
it's a prerequisite to be in Hollywood, you can't have an original idea.
Yeah, I think you're right. But you know, this whole terror forming
the Moon type of stuff, it's kind of it's interesting that, you know,
these sci fi type of things come up in real life. More chances
for life in Mars. Well, we'll see more of that. Yep.
Because we are the future, Alejandro, I think we've reached the future that
was portrayed in those movies. Whitney Houston said the children are of the future,
and where the children that have now grown up? Then she was right.
Yep, excellent. Here's something I wanted to bring up. Susanne Taylor,
who've had as a guest on the show before. She has a movie
called What on Earth, received a nice little write up in The New York
Times last week. The movie that explores the crop circle phenomenon premiered on Friday
at New York's Squad Cinema and it's running through this week till Thursday. I
believe. Yeah, pretty cool, New York Times. I was so shocked.
That was wonderful to see that. Yeah, it's good to see she
got it. And it was a you know, they were cool about it
too. They weren't making fun of her the movie, right, Yeah,
those ride ups are they're supposed to be informational, but most of the time
they go into opinion too, and they kind of especially with UFOs. Absolutely,
but they actually did a very nice job with it, and it's cool
to see that she's got it running in a theater in New York for a
week, so hopefully has received Well, it's a good movie. So we
talked about the movie in our Crop Circle issue and in our last one until
I did a review. That's right, But that Crop Circle issue we had
was phenomenal. It was great. I liked it. Pretty big visual and
Irish astronomer claims to have successfully tracked UFOs as they fly around the Earth.
Amon Asbro has researched UFOs for the past twenty years, and not only has
he seen UFOs, but through his observations Andsbrow has concluded that they follow to
find flight paths around the Earth. He has a camera array consisting of eleven
different cameras set up in his hometown of Boil that have enabled him to conduct
his research. This array monitors the entire sky all day and all night,
recording anything that moves. The compilation of data from these cameras is what led
Andsbro to his conclusion that UFOs are circling the Earth. According to IrishCentral dot
Com, Asbro explains, when you take all that data and apply it to
this theory, we have found that it fits within the computerized time graphs and
that we can predict when future sightings will occur. We have found that it
has happened in Boyle. Andsbro, who is a member of a group called
O SETI, which is the Optical Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, wants to establish
a UFO center in his hometown of boil citing the potential for tourism. I
feel derelict in my duties because I've seen this headline, but I hadn't read
this story and checked up on it, and it sounds so interesting, and
now that you're talking about it, I feel bad I didn't research it some
more. So, what do you think since you've looked into it. I'm
not sure you know he's got this camera array. I haven't seen the data,
his actual data. But the first thing that pops into my mind would
be satellites. Yeah, something following a defined path that's always coming around at
the same time. And the hard part is is there's no doubt. Well,
you know, our country doesn't like to follow established rules, so we're
going to have satellites wherever we want to have satellites, and nobody's going to
stop us. Not that I agree that we don't follow with these groups,
but that's kind of the American way, right. So yeah, he would
not know about secret satellites. Not only that are our secret Air Force space
plane that was flying around the own manned thing that we just found out about.
As far as the public, so there's a lot of stuff up there,
true that could be ours or Earth. However, somebody who's got this
huge array and I don't know what a situation is, but I've seen pictures
with him having acts. I don't know if they're his, but he has
access to some pretty powerful telescopes. He's an astronomer. I would think an
astronomer would know the difference between, you know, what a satellite looks like
and what something unknown he providing this footage, is any of it? I
wonder if he's seeing any Zingen and Zagen and Zooman and right, I don't
know. I like to contact him and find out more information, because there
wasn't any information provided other than the fact that he's charted all this and been
able to figure it out. How to contact him. Yeah, I think
so, because again, an astronomer should know what a satellite. We'll try
to get him on. So you know, he is an astronomer, and
he's pretty confident that what he's saying is UFOs and he's able to track them
and predict them, right, So cool stuff. Yeah. In other news
related to the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, the SETI Institute has been scanning the
skuys for more than fifty years, searching for evidence of extraterrestrial life by using
radio telescopes, but funding issues have put their on hold. According to Discovery
News, budget cutbacks by two of seti's key donors, the State of California
and the National Science Foundation, have forced the institute to suspend the operations of
its Allan telescope array in California. The Allen telescope arrays operations have been suspended
since April fifteenth, and its future is uncertain. Well, I think I
mentioned and this is fun because I hope that they printed that. San Jose
Mercury called and I got to have some input, and she was shocked.
By what I said, and disappoint it because you know, and I think
you might feel the same way. I love the SET, you guys,
it's great that they're searching for extraterrestrial intelligence. It's wonderful, but the method
they're doing it seems to be so silly to me, using technology we use
to listen to signals of the type of technology we use, when these civilizations
probably are, I mean, they're alien by definition using things that we could
conceive. So I think it's just. And plus with the evidence of of
course, as being UFO investigators, there's evidence that they there is visitation or
something flying around, and they could be doing like this astronomer helping him out
right his telescopes to take pictures of these things flying around. That's a better
use of the money than these telescopes. So to be honest, when I
first saw this headline that said that, I forget the headline I read it
was something like SETI I don't remember, but what I thought the article was
going to be is that they were stopping or putting a hold on their using
radio telescopes and they were going to focus on something else, on some other
method. And I was excited. Yeah, but yeah, right, and
you know they do other things and they don't just use this Allen telescope array
as far as as far as I know, they do other things. So
I don't think SETI is completely on hold. It's just this array of radio
telescopes. Well, now they have time. Because one thing, I really
like Shasak. He's really funny and witty and he's great to inspire people to
get into science. But he's debunking gets a little too far, and especially
even recently, I read him say read him saying UFOs do this, and
UFO people who see UFOs always say they're doing this or that he doesn't research
that. How would he know? And it's very it's unprofessional of him to
make those sorts of claims when he doesn't research. He should research it,
and then you know he would be able to say something. I know,
for instance, Peter Sturck, a doctor of an astronomy, who he should
have read his book. But I've talked to him, he says he hasn't
read that book. Come on, that's where you begin as an astronomer researching
UFOs. If you're going to talk about UFOs, research him first. So
that debunking I hope his radio show gets taken off the air. It's a
good thing to research. Yeah, come on, well, hopefully things come
through for SETI and they use this opportunity to come up with something. So
this is really funny. Dan Oky, longtime listener, cool dude. I
refort him. He's a funny guy. He says. I wonder if ants
have a SETI program too, But we just don't get it. I like
that. Yeah, we're not getting the ant signal. Excellent. Well,
Allehundra. That is it for the news for today. Okay, thank you.
Sure to check out these stories and more at openminds dot tv, your
source for UFO related news. I'm your Open Minds News correspondent Jason McClellan,
and you've been briefed back to you, Alejandro. Thank you, Jason.
You know what the ant should try. The ants should try Twitter. I
gotta mention my Twitter because I've been Twitter crazy lately. Uh. If you
want to get my personal Twitter, it's Paranormal rpt R, Paranormal Reporter Paranormal
rpt R And of course open Minds has Twitter also, so if you're a
Twitter dude, you got lots of couple of people to add there if you
haven't already, a couple of other stories that we have on the website before
we get to mister Mosley in two minutes. Here is oh, look,
somebody posted the link. Thank you. We have some more UFOK spiles revealed.
So those are Michael Schratt doing his taking some UFO sidings from popular references
to UFO sidings and then making some graphics of those so you can see what
they're like. So that's really cool. And we do have another story on
a pub. It's they consider themselves crop Circle Headquarters and they developed an alien
abduction ale. They also have a crappy ale about crop circles. So essentially
they tell people when you're in town researching crop circles, you know, and
you're out all night or you're out in the fields checking them out, to
come have a brew at their pubs. So their site is really funny and
I have a story all about that. It's kind of cool and it makes
you think, wow, how awesome would that be to go visit and see
some crop circles and then go hang out at this pub? And funny enough,
I recognized a picture of it because it was they shot there a TV
show called Inspector Morris on PBS, which I had watched, so it was
kind of funny when I saw that it was someplace I recognized. Anyway,
check out this story and hopefully one day we'll all be able to check out
some crop circles at the pub out there. The barge in is what it's
called. But our interview, without further interruption, let's get to James Mosley
because it's kind of a long interview and I'm really excited about having this interview
with him, and let's go ahead and bring on James Moseley of saussersmar Thank
you so much for being on the show again. So and unfortunately, yeah,
we had a did this interview, we had a glitch, so we're
doing a second time. But thank you so much. We've got James mostly
on the phone. Who does that the saucersmer and you have been in euphology
essentially since the get go, since nineteen forty seven, when kind of the
modern age of upology began. Well, I wasn't really in it that early,
but I heard about the Kenneth Arnold siding in nineteen forty seven. I
was in high school at the time, and I remember reading about it,
and that was when officially, at least the modern flying saucer era began.
Kenneth Arnold was a private pilot flying in the vicinity of Mount Rainier and he
saw at some distance over the mountains a group of nine leaming objects. I'll
always remember that phrase. And they were going along in this out of a
loose formation and moving quite rapidly. I can't remember all the details now,
but anyway, the interesting thing is that when he landed his plane and was
eventually interviewed by the press, they asked him what these ougouists look like,
and he said they looked like saucers skimming over water, and that's how the
term saucer began. But the interesting thing was they were not what we call
saucer shaped, the familiar shape that we know about now. They were shaped
more like the heel of a shoe or something. So they were acting like
saucers spinning or floating over water, but they were not shaped that way.
So anyway, that's how the era began. I didn't really get into it
in any significant way until lengthen fifty three, the era of the groups studying
saucers as a group activity and the era of the UFO zines and all that
kind of thing didn't begin until about nineteen fifty two, so I considered that
I got in about a year late, which is too bad, right,
Yeah, And it's still right in the heat of it, right when things
started. Now, another siding that hit the press really big, that you
were around to at least see the press was the Mantel case. Yeah.
That was in I think February of nineteen forty eight. That's what really I
got my attention. That was a military pilot flying I think there were a
group of three small aircraft that were more or less chasing a very large,
somewhat stationary object that was at a great altitude of something like eighty thousand feet,
which was tremendously high in those days. And two of the three planes
broke off the chase. But this captain Mantel, I can't remember his first
name right now, but he was determined to get closer to the things,
so he flew higher than the others did before they broke off, and eventually
he must have blanked out from lack of oxygen because those planes at that time
did not carry oxygen, and he went too high for his equipment and whatever
happened is still a matter of controversy, but it's known as a fact that
his plane fell to the ground, disintegrated into many pieces over a large area,
and his body was mutilated in a grotesque way, and that was all
it was to him. There were, of course, the people that took
the alarmist review. You might say that he was apped by space people and
put out a commission that way. But the more likely answer, and less
exciting one, is that he was chasing a skyhook balloon. That project was
a government project that was classified at that time and was declassified later on.
Well, so they never mentioned that as an explored the nation at the time,
but certainly would be reasonable because those things did go to a great height,
and the thing that he was chasing was not as many other UFOs have
been through the years. Was not moving quickly or radically or acting strange in
any way. It was just sort of fitting there. So I would personally
give the nod to the skyhookd balloon theory. But that was a big deal
to a lot of people and I when I read that, and at that
time, as a kid, I believed the zepp by Martians SCENARIOO, and
I thought, my god, there really is something very strange and exciting going
on here. Coming to get it, They're coming to get at Yeah.
Well, so I sort of intensified my interest in the subject after that,
and I was watching the papers, I guess for more stories about flying saufics.
Now with the Kenneth Arnold case, I think the prevailing idea for our
answer for the skeptics is that, I think, what reflections off of his
canopy watching the research over the years, do you think there's been a prosaic
answer proposal. I never heard the answer that you just gave. I heard
it's not probably as crazy as it sounds off. And but birds walk a
bird. They would have to have been at a different distance than what he
was estimating these craft to be. But I mean there is some possibility there.
I in my view, I'm not a professional person that can classify a
UFO case is being solved, unsolved, or whatever other categories there might be.
But I would say the probability is that it's an unknown, of which
there are many. Some cases can be solved, as you very well know,
and some cannot. Now nineteen forty eight, you've got really interested with
the mantel case. And what though, prompted you to actually get active in
the field in the early fifties. Well, what happened was in nineteen fifty
three I met a professional writer. His name was Ken Kirpene long forgotten now,
but he was an adventure writer. What was your name again, Krippine
k r i Ppe. Okay, have you heard of him? No?
I don't think so now, Well, he's long gone and forgotten. He
used to write for the true magazines, such as True That was the name
of a magazine that was very big at that time in Pargasy. And he
was a sort of exciting sort of guy. And I met him. Long
story as to how I met him, but he was interested in my interest
in flying saucers, and he agreed that he was a published writer and I
was still just a kid. He agreed that he would co author a book
with me on the subjects of flying saucers if I basically would do all the
work, which was a good deal for him, I guess. So I
took that as a gung ho sort of situation. I was out of school
by then, and I had some time and money, and I had a
car, so I took a trip for a period of i'd say seven or
eight weeks, and I drove from where I lived near New York City all
the way out to California, through a southern route through Texas and New Mexico
and so on, and then out to Los Angeles, where I stayed for
a few days, and then came back in a different route through the middle
of the country. More and what I did before I started, I got
file cards from the books, the early books that I had read on flying
sauces, and there were several that had come out by then. I took
the more interesting cases and put them on filecards, with of course the name
of the person and the address and whatever else I could think of. And
my purpose was to see as many as possible as I made this trip,
and I don't know just how many I saw, but I took detailed notes.
Every night. I'd type up a whole bunch of stuff when it was
still fresh in my mind as to what I had learned that day from whoever
I had talked to, And there was probably about fifty people. Some were
scientists, some were primates who had been in the papers for having seen UFOs,
and some were scientists, all kinds of any kind of person that would
contribute something of interest or importance to the subject. And I ended up with
over one hundred pages of single space typewritten notes, which I still have,
and the idea to write a book with this Ken Crapine never worked out.
Turned out he was completely cynical about the whole thing. I went to all
this trouble to get this authentic information and it really was something that nobody else
had done, and the stuff I got there is still of interest, or
at least parts of it are, But anyway, that really didn't impress him.
And what he wanted to do was to make up a crazy contact each
sort of story as the headline thing for the book and then just use these
true stories as stiller as a background. And I can see that I would
be starting my literary career as well as my ethological career if there is such
a thing in a very negative way. I'd have to live this down if
I ever could. So I just gave up the whole idea and did nothing
with Kencorpeene on this book. And I'll just end this statement by saying it
took me forty eight years after that before I finally got the book out.
That was in two thousand and two, when I finally met a co author
that was far more rational, and I had a lot more experience, and
things fell into place, and I did get a book out by Prometheus Press
in two thousand and two. What's a book called Shockingly Close to the Truth,
Confessions of a Grave Robbing Ufologist. Did you rate Rob Graves on your
tour there? Well, you see now most of the grave robbing stuff is
not in the book because it's mainly about flying sauces. But it's a hard
thing to explain. During the late nineteen fifties, I did have a lot
of time and money to burn, you might say. And not only was
I starting as of nineteen fifty four a flying saucer magazine, but I was
also spending about half of my time a treasure hunting in Peru, which is
quite a different thing. But my interests were sort of equally divided between the
two quite different things. And my purpose, or my hope in recent years
was to write the one Saucier book, which I did write, and then
follow it up with a book that would only be about trager hunting, which
is equally interesting to me. And to a lot of other people but totally
different subjects. While again, to make a lot of story short, my
co author died. His name was Carl Flock. I'm sure you know who
Lee is or was, And we lost our agent, our literary agent,
and the book market changed, and a whole lot of things went wrong,
and I just don't think that book will ever come out. But there is
some references to trigger hunting in the Saucer book that did come out, and
I guess that's going to be about the best I can do. It is
tragic that your interviews didn't get printed back in the fifties. That would have
been something pretty groundbreaking for this period of time. Yeah, well, some
of that material was could I say it was dated, of course, but
I mean material that would be of any interest at any time. I had
interviews with Georgia Danski, who was the leading contactee of those early days,
and with Frank Scully, who wrote Behind the Flying Sauces, which was the
first widely circulated pocketbook on the subject of sauces, which came out in nineteen
fifty and I interviewed him in nineteen fifty three on my tour. One of
the other people I interviewed, and I kid you not was Harry S.
Truman. He was no longer president. That's another interesting story. He had
a little office in Independence, Missouri where he, as an ex president,
would just go, I guess, and do correspondence or whatever he might have
done there. And I called him, I think on a Friday or Saturday,
and he answered the phone himself, and I made a sort of an
appointment to see him on Monday. It wasn't a precise time. He just
said, well, I'll be here, he can come by Monday morning,
and I did, and he probably had somebody else that he was talking to
in another room at the time. I came to the door, and he
seemed to be in a hurry. He didn't seem as pleasant about the hopefully
as he had on the phone a couple of days earlier. But he talked
to me briefly, and there were just the two of us there as far
as I know. There was no secret service or anything like that in those
ways. He was alone in the office except for whoever else he might have
been talking to. But his quotable quote, which of course I used in
my book when I finally brought it out, so many years later was I've
never seen a purple cow. I never hoped to see one. That was
his way of saying that he did not believe in flying sauces. And I
thought that was kind of cud. Yeah, that is really funny, and
it's interesting because of course you have so many rumors. And in fact,
someone I talked to the other day was talking as if it was well known
that Truman was believed in UFOs and stuff, and I was thinking, well,
I don't know that that is known at all. Well, that is
very controversial. You know, there is supposed to be this briefing document first,
I guess of the MJ twelve documents, which would have been Truman sort
of passing on the torture of UFO College to the next president. And so
if we believe all that kind of thing, Truman knew about buying sauces and
Eisenhower and everybody after him. But I happened to personally believe all those documents
are a fraudulent in one way or another. They're not authentic at all,
And I think the more likely situation is that Truman was more or less telling
me the truth. I did meet Truman one time, probably about ten years
later, he came down to Clarksburg, West Virginia one weekend when I was
visiting my friend Greg Barker, who was another UFO publisher, and it just
happened. Truman was there campaigning for a Democrat who he supported, and he
was there to back him, you might say, to make his campaign more
successful, nothing whatever to do with flying sauces. Well, again, to
make a long story short, Gray Barker and I got a photographic equipment and
we crashed the press conference for Truman. I had phony press credentials, which
passed in those days, nothing like that would pass because everything is more precise
and you can't get away with it as much as you used to. But
anyway, we joined the real press for this press conference, and when my
turn came, I spoke to Truman. And this was in a room with
maybe thirty other people, so it wasn't alone like the first time. And
I said, well, mister Truman, I met you several years ago.
You probably wouldn't remember it, but I did ask you at that time about
flying sauces, and you indicated that you did not believe in them. I
didn't both the exact words that he had used, because he might have thought
I made it up long after, and he might certainly not remember the exact
words that he used, But anyway, he gave a facetious answer. Oh,
I'm not telling this right. My turn didn't exactly come up. What
happened was the Truman was getting bored with this press covererence, and he was
an outspoken man. He was a very interesting guy, I'm sure. And
he said, you know, everywhere I go people asked me the same kind
of questions over and over. Doesn't doesn't somebody here have an interesting question?
And that was because my question was one that would never come up otherwise,
and he was delighted to hear it, and so was everybody in the room.
It just the question itself brought the house down, and Truman gave a
facetious answer, which also got a last and I repraised the question a couple
of times and more laughter, and finally I figured, well I've done enough
of this, and I said, well, thank you, miss the true
and I sat down and that was the height of the press corpace. Everybody
enjoyed it. Oh, I'm sure that was the perfect perfect timing. Yeah,
yeah, I was very lucky. Yeah, I've had some experiences in
my life that are very interesting and unusual in a lot of different ways.
Speaking of interesting and unusual, one of the people you brought up, and
I have the book right in front of me, went a really old copy
too, because I use it a lot for research is the Frank Scully one.
Because a lot of the crash ufo crash stuff these days that people followed
come from the book. What did you think of him and the cases he
covered? Well, there again, it's very complicated. He either believed or
pretended to believe information that he had received from a man named Silas Newton,
and Simus Newton also had a friend and partner named I think it was Leo
Jibbauer, very close to that, and it turned out as a different topic.
I suppose these two men were rather fraudulently promoting oil exploration. In other
words, they were getting money from people under false pretenses. But somewhere along
the way they also got involved in the flying saucer myths or whatever, and
they had a story that they had given to Scully about a flying saucer crash
in nineteen forty eight or near the town of Aztec, New Mexico. Now
that is not the Roswell crash, And that's interesting the crash in Aztec by
all accounts, and there is one serious fellow who just in recent years has
been trying to dredge up information to prove it really happened. But in the
opinion of most serious researchers, that just was made up out of whole cloth
by Scully and his friend. So it's interesting that one year previous to that,
it was this supposed crash at Roswell nineteen forty seven, and the Roswell
crash, if it did occur as an interplanetary event, occurred just a couple
of weeks after the Arnold Saucer, So the public was all excited at that
time, and that might have contributed to the fact that people ended up thinking
that that was a crash of something from another planet. But anyway, Scully
was the proponent of these stories. I think the only one mentioned by name
as to the location was Aztec, but he also referred to a couple of
others, one of which might have been Roswell, but it wasn't named.
And so this was a sensational book by all means, and it sold very
well in pocketbook and Scully had been a writer for gossip about the movie business
and so forth. He had a column in a variety which was, I
think it still is, the weekly newspaper of all kinds of show bis news.
So he was in the that type of work and was well known for
that, but he had never had anything to do with anything like sauces.
So we got him into a new type of enterprise and got him quite a
lot of fame and I supposed quite a lot of money. Well, anyway,
I interviewed him, and I didn't get a very very good feeling that
he was terribly serious about all that. And I also interviewed Silas Newton,
and that also was interesting because Silas Newton was from Colorado, and I think
he lived in Denver, and by this time he had been indicted for fraud
on this oil type of controversy that I mentioned a moment ago nothing to do
with flying sauces. But the day that it was just a coincidence. But
the day that I got to Denver on my way back from California was just
the very same day that the headline in the Denver newspaper, and actually was
the banner headline, this man had been indicted for oil fraud or however they're
worrying was. In other words, it was just the worst or the best
day to run him. And he was in the phone book and I found
his name, and I figured, well, you know this kind of thing,
he's going to be very unhappy and certainly wouldn't want to see me.
But he was very nice about it. He said, yeah, well,
you know, this will get my mind off this newspaper story that you've been
reading, and I'd be very glad to talk to you about flying sauces.
So I went out that evening and spent a few hours with him, and
he told me all of his stories. But I certainly didn't take him terribly
serious either, because, after all, if he was plug and the oil
business, why not assume that he might also have been the same way in
the least saucier business. Yeah, gotcha. Well that's really interesting now.
And then the other person you said you interviewed, which is of course a
big chapter in this area in the fifties, is Shortia dan Ski. Yeah,
who you don't also didn't get a good feeling about. Well, A
Dansky was a different kind of person. He was likable. I mean,
that might have been one of the good things about him. I saw him.
Let's see, he lived I can't think of the name of it now,
but in a rural area you might say of southern California. And I
don't remember now if I made it an appointment or anything like that, but
I knew somehow that he lived in a rural trailer or something behind this restaurant,
which was on the road up to Mount Palomar, which was amusing because
a dance k he called himself Professor Danski, and a lot of people got
confused. They thought he worked at the observatory up at the top of the
mountain. He had absolutely nothing to do with that at all. Anyway,
he was known, but he was sort of whole court at this restaurant every
afternoon, and I went and interviewed him. I had a bunch of questions,
of course, written out before I got there, and he was very
pleasant and very kind and patient answering these questions. I'm sure he'd been asked
all of it before, but for a whole bunch of long winded reasons,
his story just didn't hold true. The main story that I was involved with
talking to him about was the story that occurred in his first book, which
was his meeting on the desert somewhere else near there in southern California, in
which he and a group of six witnesses drove out to a given point and
parks I guess it was a mile or two away, and saw supposedly a
scout ship a small flying saucer land on the desert, and a being came
out, a humanoid looking being. Well, Dansky left the other six people
behind at the parking lot or whatever and walked alone on the desert to go
and have a private meeting with this spaceman whose name I believe was Ashtar.
And he was just a very handsome, human looking person. I guess you
if you met him on the street, you wouldn't know he was a spaceman.
And Adansky got all kinds of information about Venus, which was the home
planet of this Ashtar, and all kinds of messages of sweetness and light and
band the bomb and save the environment and learning to get along with each other
and all that kind of thing. No specific information that we couldn't think of
on our own, but still very interesting. And that first book of A
Dansky sold very very well. I met A Dansky too, or three times
after that, but I had no reason to believe his story, and of
course we know through scientific research the team about I guess years after that that
the story had to be totally absurd because the surface temperature of Venus is I
believe, seven hundred degrees and that makes it hard for an ordinary human to
live. There is difficult enough here in Arizona. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
so that in itself made the story very unlikely. I would think.
I remember something about after the information came out about the surface temperature of Venus,
a dance exclaimed that it was Venus Etheria. You see, that is
the esteric double somehow of the planet Venus. And of course Venus Etheria is
a beautiful planet, sort of like Aras and certainly not anything like Venus itself.
So you know, the story held up. It didn't matter. Now
in the fifties, Adamski and a lot of people have kind of forgotten this.
It's kind of a forgotten chapter. I think he wasn't the only contact.
There were a lot of people claiming to be speaking to spacemen. Yeah,
well, there was Truman, Bedroom Orfeo, Angelousi, Daniel and several
others. Oh, Gabriel Greene was one of my favorite. I can't really
remember all of their stories, but I met all of those and others because
I didn't do this on my first trip out to California in nineteen fifty three,
but through the years I went at least two or three times to these
annual conventions that they had on the desert, and they were run by another
contact he whose name was George vent Tassel, and Ventassel lived with his wife
out of the desert and he wanted attention. I guess he had a little
newsletter that he put out, but once a year he hosted a giant outdoor
convention. It was a natural thing called Giant Rock, which was an actual
huge rock on the desert. I don't know how it got there. There
was nothing else like it nearby, but certainly a landmark. And people would
come out by the thousands to enjoy the desert. And he built a platform
on top of the rock with steps going up to it and a microphone and
all, and he would have people speak to the masses from giant Rock itself,
and it was quite an interesting scenario. And Van Tassel was another guy
I liked. He was very kind and gentle, and he knew very well
from my reputation, because by that time I was already putting out my saucer
magazine, Sauter News, which took a partially skeptical view at least about the
Cartextes. Was very nice to me and let me speak from the rock also,
and I think I didn't speak too long. I didn't have that much
to say to a crowd of this sort, but any anything like that was
very genial on the part of the Van Tassel. He also built, supposedly
from plans or knowledge given to him by the space Peel, he built a
thing called the Integratron. I'm just struggling to remember these things after early years.
The other time was a circular building. It was a dome. It
looked like a astronomical observatory of some sort, and it was never finished.
Really, the dome was finished, but there was supposed to be some equipment,
some machinery inside it that would sort of juvenate people, makes them feel
younger and maybe even look younger. It didn't give you eternal life, but
it did certain very good things for you through some kind of vibrations that came
from these machines. Well, the money, I think the information might have
come with the money didn't to complete all these machines that were supposed to go
inside the integratron, so it became a point of interest of course for tourists.
Anyhow, it was usually locked up. One time, I forget how,
but I was with somebody that had a key and I did get inside
and it was just a big building. I forget what the diameter was,
maybe fifty or seventy feet and just empty. But it was an interesting experience
to see you see the inside of the thing. Well, finally, Fan
Tassel died these conventions going through the fifties and sixties and then died sometime in
the seventies. He never did finish the integratron, but it's still there.
It's passed through different hands over the years, and I forget what it's being
used for right now, but it's always had some New Age connotation all through
these years. Yeah, I think people do two words and they talk about
man task, and they also do meditations and things like that. Yeah,
Well, they've had marriages there and they've had meditations there, and actually i'd
forgotten it may have died out now, but just in very recent years.
As recently as a year or two ago, they started having annual conventions at
the Integratron, but they didn't catch on. Oh what is his name,
Paul Kimball, you know who he is, was out there a couple of
years ago. I guess she spoke there and it was only about fifty people,
which was a very disappointing crowd. And I don't remember if that was
the last one or whether they went on with it, but it just didn't
catch on for some reason. I don't know. It's amazing that they were
able to get thousands of people in the middle of the desert in the summer,
you know, and the heat and everything, and it looks like from
the pictures it's not like people had much cover out there. Well some did,
some didn't. People came in their cars and the trailers and so forth.
I mean, you know, you could bring anything that you wanted.
There was no accommodations, actually there there was. I think the nearest real
town was twenty nine Palms, which was about twenty miles away, and there
were a few motels there. I stayed there at least once. I think
I never slept actually out on the desert, but it was a thrill.
It was something interesting and and different. And yeah, I might add that
there were some drugs involved in those days. Now do you out of all
those people claiming to speak to extraterrestrials, do you believe any of them?
People like Fantassel, who you said seem like a nice, genuine person.
Well, you know, I was reading something I guess by Nick Redfern just
the other day. There might have been somebody else, you know the Yeah,
he wrote about it recently. Yeah, the contact these are getting like
a second look. And now the whole sety of youthology, I think is
getting more complicated. And I'm glad that it is, because it's not just
spacemen from another planet anymore or other theories. But people are saying, maybe
these contact these did have experiences of some kind, or at least some of
them did, might have been not physical, but the goal or whatever you
want to call it, and so they may have had some truth and some
validity and what they were doing, and that they shouldn't be written off completely.
And I think there's something to that, and I think it's worth exploring.
I don't know how we could ever get to the bottom of it.
But it's very interesting now you kind of that leads to your overall views.
And I like this quote. I mentioned it before because it kind of is
Jerome's clerk take on your views that you've entertained just about every view possible to
hold about UFOs without ever managing to say anything especially interesting or memorable about any
of them. And of course, yeah, at the time, he didn't
mean that to be a compliment. Now he didn't. Are you reciting that
from memory or do you have the actual quotes? No, actually I have
the quote. Did he say seeing or memorable? Is that what he said?
Yeah? Yeah, I didn't manage to say anything especially interesting or memorable.
Well, Jerry Clark has a sharp tongue in a sharp pen, and
I won't begrudge him as a particular remark, because there's a lot of truth
that there was a period of time I said that I believe that the sauces
were all earth made by our government and other governments, and then I went
in a planetary and then I went specifically to the idea that they come from
Mars, because I forget just what it was. At that time, it
seemed Mars was terribly likely to have intelligent life, and indeed it may still
turn out to have some kind of life even if there's just micros. Oh
yeah. And people still were influenced by the canals on Mars, which had
been discovered by what's his name, Precival Lowell back around the turn of the
century. And you can see pictures of what is seen through the telescope,
and there are these markings that look very much like straight lines. Where the
trouble is, as we've got better telescopes later on, you can see that
that's just an optical illusion. There are no straight lines on Mars. But
if you think that there are, and if you tie that in with the
big wave sightings of little men landing on this planet, especially in Europe and
South America in the early nineteen fifties, if you put all that together,
you can start believing in Martians. And so I got onto that, and
then I guess back to the general interplanetary feeling of it now in the last
teen or twenty years at least, I'm interdimensional or whatever you want to call
it. I think that it's something far more complex than simple spaceships coming from
physical planets are away in the universe now Stanton Friedman insists that that is the
case, and I suppose theoretically it could be. I mean, there's no
limit to the amount of advancement that some other civilization might have, and these
tremendous distances might be no problem for them at all. But there are a
lot of reasons to think that that probably isn't the answer. And it's a
long story here, but I think you and I talked about it last time.
The behavior of the sources themselves makes you feel immediately that this is not
the way intelligent creatures from somewhere else would behave. Among other things, they
lie, I mean, not only did the contact ease learn somewhat different messages
from each space person that they've met, but there are another instances of creatures
or little men or whatever saying things in more recent years which have also not
been true. And the whole methodology of what they do they just don't have
any coherent pattern to it. But I think the most telling thing, and
there's no explanation for this at all, when you get down to the UFO
cases that probably are genuine and weed out all the ones that are errors or
hoaxes or whatever else might be wrong. When you get just to the genuine
ones, and especially the ones where there's enough detail where you can tell exactly
what we're seeing. All these things different. There's no two that are exactly
alike. Now, you know, to take a simple analogy, I mean
with automobiles. If you're seeing automobiles from a distance, or you're on another
planet trying to figure out what an automobile is, and you're looking at these
things, well, they're all slightly different, but they are basically, in
most ways almost the same, and you can reach a conclusion there is something
here. It's an automobile, and it looks approximately like this, this and
this, and that's what it will always look like. But that isn't the
way. With the sources. They are as if deliberately different. There is
no coherent pattern. The light patterns are different, the shapes are different.
When creatures come out, they always look different. They don't come out looking
like idealized humans like they did in contact the days. Now they either look
like these grays who are not particularly handsome, or there are little men that's
gone out of style now, but in the fifties that was very big little
men that looked just about like us. I guess dwarfs. We don't see
them much any anymore, and there's no consistency in the way they look in
the messages or the way the craft looks. So yeah, somebody is playing
with us, you see. That's what I think it is. Yeah,
well, that's why I was going to mention. I think that a lot
of conventional scientists has a problem with this field and it's difficult to study,
and a lot of researchers have but get frustrated that it's so enigmatic, and
I get to feeling, like you mentioned it enigmatic by design. Yes,
I think that is the pattern, that there is no pattern. There's one
thing I hadn't thought of when I talked to you the other time, and
that is you're familiar with the Project Blue Books in the fifties. That was
the program that the Air Force had to study UFO cases and try to figure
out what they were. Well, there was Project blue Book reports I guess
number one through twelve, and it's a different story, but I was able
to get to the Pentagon one time and actually see those Blue Book volumes,
which no other researcher I don't think ever, was able to do. It
was again just blind look on my part. But after twelve, for some
reason, they skipped thirteen. Although there are rumors that there was a thirteen
that was totally different from any of the others, but I think that's more
garbage. But that's again another story. There was a fourteen which was supposed
to be a recap of the other twelve. And what they did they actually
tried. They went to a statistition or a outfit I ford get the name
of it, a well known military outset that would crunch the numbers, so
to speak, and try to get to the bottom of the whole thing.
Well, for one thing, they found that the number of unknowns was a
lot larger than the Air Force had ever admitted, and that was one thing
that was very interesting and important. But another thing was, and I just
happened to think about this a couple of days ago for the first time in
years, the best thing that they did in this project blue book before at
fourteen, which was quite large and had all kinds of statistics in it.
But what they did they took the six cases that had the most detail and
tried to well, First they put in a drawing of each of the six,
and then the purpose was to see if they looked like each other,
and all six looked completely different. And that's where that idea came up,
I think the first time, that they are all different. And furthermore,
scientists seeing that, or anyone else that goes by old fashioned logic would say,
well, it's nonsense, because if it was real, they don all
tend to look alike, as in the analogy of the automobile. So that's
where it became obvious that this was a phenomenon that was not subject to normal
interpretation. Yeah, you know, along those lines of scientific inquiry which kind
of came to those sorts of conclusions was the Hunt for the Skinwalkers the ranch
in Utah by Bigelows Group NID and I talked to Coombe Tellahar and the skin
Walker. I kind of got that idea right when I saw the title,
because although the Skinwalkers, you know, this kind of which a legend in
Native American history, I've always got it akin to the Trickster, because you
know, I've been I've got a background in Native American history, and I've
always been interested in that idea, and come they kind of said they felt
that way that with all their science, with all their technology and their resources.
This phenomenon seemed to have an intelligence that was always one step ahead of
them, where they really couldn't figure anything out. Yeah, there was a
book that by George Knapp and somebody else co Walter did ahone member Colla lead
scientists within. Oh yeah, I wish I had read that, because that
must be very interesting. And as you say, I think for a period
of several months, a group of real scientists with real equipment. This was
all paid for by what is a bigelow right old bought the ranch and because
it was haunted, so to speak, and spent his money to send these
people out in a scientific expedition. And actually my understanding is they were never
actually able to prove anything. As you say, it is the proof always
escapes them, as if something was working intelligently against them so that there would
be no proof. And that may be very true in the UFO field also,
in which case we have extremely little chance of ever solving this in the
foreseeable future. Now, the enigmatic nature in some cases gets people really frustrated.
Another thing that causes a lot of frustration is a lot of the infighting
and the egos. And I was wondering, you know, which was it
or was it a combination or was it either of these? Kind of had
you evolved in going to create sawcer Smear, which is kind of more humor
and gossip. Well, originally, beginning in nineteen fifty four, I had
a more conventional you might say, UFO magazine called Saucer News, and I
would have articles by contributors, people that were known in the field. I
would try to keep up with the latest sightings, which was hard to do
because in the fifties, as I told you, I was in the Peru
treasure hunting half the time. So I don't know myself how I managed to
keep this magazine going at the same time I was out of the country.
I mean I'd be out of the country a month or two and then back
a month or two. But I kept both of these scenes going at the
same time. But anyway, when I reached the mid nineteen seventies, for
whatever reason, I just got tired of doing it that way, and I
figured, well, I want to go on with this, but from here
on it's just going to be me whatever I want to write, and I'm
not going to try to keep up with sightings and I'm not going to have
articles by other experts. I'm just going to do anything that I want and
be interesting, hopefully and humorous and cynical and whatever I care to be.
And by that time I had reached I think my present the belief that three
D sauces from another planet was not the answer, and I went on speculating
about the other possible answers. So that's how Sauces Smera began, and I
think it's improved over the years, but the mailing list has declined because of
a lot of factors, one of them of course being the Internet. Since
I'm not on the Net and it's only a print magazine. It's trying to
pass a to that extent, and we'll go its way into history I suppose
before it too long. But anyway, Yeah, that's how softy news began.
A soutis smear on it, uh huh. Yeah, there's a lot
of fun and like I like to call it kind of a guilty pleasure,
but because I love to read it every time in your humor is really funny,
and plus I guess it's kind of an insider thing because you got to
knew who these researchers are, and then the better you know them, the
more humorous. Well that's right. I mean, if somebody tries to read
this, it has no background of knowing who the people are that I'm talking
about. I mean, what fun is it to read an expose a of
a person you've never heard of to begin with? Uh? Like these days
kind of off the subject. But I am still interested in reading things like
the National Inquirer. And there's two others that go with it, the same
kind of scandal sheets. I can't remember the name of them right now,
but you know I go through them quite quickly. I read the exposed as
on the people I've heard of and I'm interested in, and most of the
actors and actresses that they are exposing for fighting with their wife or taking drugs
or whatever they're doing wrong. I mean, I skip it because I don't
know who it is. Why do I care what somebody is doing if I
don't know who they are to begin with. So sorceress smear is just for
the people that are in the know, I guess, and interested in that
aspect of what's going on in the saucer field. I also, and I
know that your magazine Open Minds does the same thing. I also rehash some
of the classic cases from the past because another thing that I think we talked
about last time, beginning in about nineteen eighty and for whatever reason, I
don't know, and I don't think anybody knows, but the close up cases
that have enough proof or near proof and detail to make you say, well,
something certainly had to have happen here. It can't be just lights in
the sky or somebody making a mistake. Those kinds of cases just don't seem
to happen anymore for whatever reason. And so it's interesting to go back over
some of the well known cases of the past and rehash them and try to
continue to figure out what they really might be well. And I think what
for better or worse, since the media doesn't pay much attention to this field,
is that a lot of people don't know about those old cases. They
get and it was the same for me when I got involved. But people
get involved with the interested in the field and they start to read books and
everything, and then they know what happens from when they got involved onwards,
but they don't know a lot about the history. And so for I found
rehashing a lot of those old cases is very eye opening for people. Yeah,
well, you do a lot of that and open minds. Yeah,
yeah, and Golling I have enjoyed that aspect of your magazine, I think
more than any other because there are some of those old cases that are better
known than others, and even the ones that you've heard of, you're going
to forget the details, and it's very interesting to reread those things. Yeah.
Well, and like you've said, there's been waves. You talked about
how in the sightings in the fifties and there were lots of landings where entities
were seen, and then you have the sending seventies, which was a lot
of sightings, and then more often, like you said, there's a kind
of not as many of these physical type of landings and stuff with these evidence,
and then you move it morphed into the abduction things, so it does
change. Well, yeah, I remember, I'm trying to remember if it
was fifty two or fifty four, but there was one summer where there were
just dozens of these cases, especially from France, and they, as usual,
the craft all looked different and the behavior of the occupants was different,
but there was some consistency and there were little creatures that looked, I guess
like doors or midgets, and we don't get that anymore. I mean,
it's just very peculiar how these things do go in waves for reasons that are
not explained by anybody. M Well, it seems like we were able to
cover a lot more last time. Maybe that just means I'll have to have
you on again, but we're pretty much out of time. Do you want
to give people the address? Though? Because people can subscriber get on the
list, I think you call them non subscribers. Yeah, you too.
Well, the reason I call them non subscribers is because I've found it convenient
not to set a price. If I set a price, then those that
want to will send that amount, and certainly no more than that amount.
But if I don't set a price, there are a few people who will
send far more than the set price. You see. So, in other
words, more or less, I think I come out ahead by not setting
a price. So you send what you want, but it better be generous,
That's all I can say. And it's saucers smear just two words.
Saucer s me a R box one seven oh nine key West to words key
West, Florida three three oh four to one, and it would be interesting
if they mentioned that they heard me on this show, because I've been I'll
be honest with you, I've been on a number of these internet shows and
I don't get a whole lot of response, but it'll be interesting to see
what happens. And this year marks thirty years you've been doing it? Is
that correct? Doing what saucae smear? Yes? Well yeah, I think
I changed it from saucer News to sausage Smear, I think in nineteen seventy
six, so that's more less the eighty sixth nineteen thirty five years about you?
Okay, yep, all right, well, thank you so much for
being on the show. Well, thank you for having me back, and
I'm sorry about what happened last time, and we'll see where we go from
here. Right, great to have him on. Remember that address is PO
box one, seven oh nine, Key West, Florida, three three zero
four to one. Remember to tell him you heard about him on Open Minds
Radio. And he was kidding, of course about the donation having to be
generous. That would be nice, but he takes practically anything, so and
it is a funny, very very He's got a great sense of humor.
I hear here is more serious talking eupology, but his sausage smear is very
funny. Next week we have Don Schmidt. He's actually going to be one
of the speakers at the Kingman conference we talked about earlier, and so we'll
talk to him about that. But he is the pre eminent roswelt Well,
one of the main Roswell's researchers, So we'll talk to him a bit about
a great article he has in our magazine coming out in just a couple of
weeks, which is about Oswell and all of the deathbed confessions and the witnesses
who say they saw a little creature that survived the crash. So he also
worked for j Allen Heinek and he's also got an illustrious UFO career. So
next week, Don Schmidt, thanks for listening to Open Minds Radio. Don't
forget to visit Openminds dot tv for more UFO news. We'll talk to you
next week.