Hello, everyone, Welcome to the latest episode of Hardwood Knocks. This is
Adam Framwell, back from my time in the Health and Safety Protocols and joining
my always fantastic host, Danta Valley. I'm excited to be back talking with
you, Dan about some hoops, and I'm even more excited because I always
enjoy the mail bag episodes so much and that's what we have in store for
everyone this time around. How are you doing. I am spectacular glad to
hear that you're feeling better. I hope you're full on stamina returns soon.
It's exciting to hear your voice. I feel like I'm finally playing video games
online though, because you have the headset, and I feel down right now
as if we are playing a video game together, which is fitting the effect
that we're going for. Well, we have a Discord channel, which is
popular among gamers, and so it's almost like Adam knew that we needed to
plug the Discord channels we wearing his headset. You should join the hard Knocks
Discord channel. The link is in the podcast bio and we're already having lots
of fun in there, and for the time being, you get priority when
it comes having your mailbag questions answered. If that's not a bonus, what
the hell is? Yeah? No, I am using the gaming headset right
now. It is most commonly used for my digital version of Bloomhaven Sessions on
Steam. If you haven't tried that out, you should. It's awesome.
I've played the real board game version and the even probably even nerdier online version.
But my headphones that I typically use with the microphone broke, So this
is the best I've gotten until I'm able to make a run to a store
and get some actual headphones for the microphone. Well, hopefully that is the
biggest inconvenience that you've had lately. And it's not because you had COVID.
It's yeah, it's not. You're just going through it at the moment.
Is everything. Everything is great, Everything is great, as you said,
just dealing with the host COVID fatigue, it's uh, it's not fun to
be winded like going up and down the stairs. But all things considered,
I'm pretty lucky and grateful to be vaccinated and healthy now. I was vaccinated
before, to be clear, but the healthy part is recent. You're super
new now vax boost boosted and had not at all you're free at all.
Like everyone's mailbox again. I know that was a hobby of yours back good
day only leave no one go start looking mail boxes. Let's let's belly flop
into this mailbag before we do jump into the discord. We had two questions
that we're attacking. I'm attacking I'm just gonna infer tone the NBA math account
because you didn't you skipped over the Wolves in Team TPA last week, And
so Benny and Ben asked, why did you skip the wost team in TPA
last week? Yeah, because my my COVID riddled self was attempting to put
all of those team updates out one morning and I have to use a separate
computer for it, so that we have Tableau AX and I could take all
the pictures and everything. So I'd scheduled them all out, and then realized
after like seven people commented on it, that I had scheduled the Timberwolves TPA
tweet without a picture, which obviously isn't particularly valuable. So I deleted that
and was not able to do it again because I would have had to get
the other computer, and I was in the middle of work, and I
just forgot to get back to it, and we get so many responses on
those days to the various tweets that I did not see those. So I
apologized to Ben and Benny and it won't happen again. But the real answer
is just that I have a personal vendetta against the Timberwolves, much like I
do every other team. Yeah, that's all was going to say. We
are we conspire against every single team in the league. We hate them.
We hate your team too much, We love everyone else's team too much.
That's how. That's how. It's the best takes. The best takes are
always the ones where you get accused of being a hater and a super fan
because you know that you found the right balance, right. It's the same
thing with fake trades and both and basis maintain that they're giving up too much.
It's it's a really good trade idea. That's my gauge. First up,
let's get into some deeper mail bad questions on Discord t bloom one seven
asked which would you bet on Andrew Wiggins is the last All Star starter off
the draft board or any other result. I mean, as I responded on
the Discord channel, So again, like you should get on the Discord channel's
answering mail bad questions. Just think about that. You can peer into the
if you join Discord. Yeah, I essentially answered this one with my response
question, which is that I think it's a better question to ask if the
league got rid of the requirement that starters be drafted before reserves, would Andrew
Wiggins be drafted before anyone else. So the one scenario in which I could
see him not being the last starter or last whatever off the board is Steph
Curry's team just trying to appease Steph Curry, who wants Andrew Wiggins on it.
And so it's not a matter of Steph being a captain, which Steph
is not a captain, right is who? And if he tried to shoot
his shot, he'd probably miss right now anyway, man, Now you're attacking
first, you're dumping all over there. Now you're attacking Steph Curry. But
yeah, that is the that is the only thing that that's the only scenario
in which it's like, oh, you you picked Steph Curry and like Steph
Curry campaigned behind the scenes for Andrew Wiggins, or you're trying to you know,
like a you're trying to prove you're a real hooper and that Andrew Wiggins
is actually much better than people presume, and so you're going to draft him
on your team. But if he is anything other than the last All Star
starter selected, No, that that drafted not unfold based on talent or fit
or any coherent logic. And like the Wiggins discourse has been so reductive on
Twitter, just as is the case with just about everything, where like it
doesn't need to be so extreme, Like Wiggins is probably not the worst All
Star starter selection of all time. There have been guys like Yao Ming or
Alan Iverson who are voted in purely as legacy selections. Yaoming was selected as
an All Star starter during a season in which he played five games. No,
Antonio Davis was an All Star starter one year, And ultimately people don't
really remember who was a starter and who was a reserve so much as who
was an All Star. Does Andrew Wiggins deserve to be an All Star starter?
No? Probably not. Maybe it wouldn't have happened without the K Pop
influence or whatever that he'll happen with the Golden State Warriors stuff. Probably not.
But like the idea of Andrew Wiggins being an All Star this year is
not entirely unfathomable. Should he be probably not. Is he on the cusp
of it? I think you can make a case, like in the in
the RPR MVP predictor we use at NBA math, he's checking in around like
thirty two in the league right now, so you know, the All Stars
are the twenty four best players. He's he's on the cusp of getting to
that level, and it is ultimately a cool reward for a guy who has
completely reinvented himself as a player who can maximize his talents within a role player's
role. He has played phenomenal defense for the Warriors. He started to take
the right shots. He's become a lethal three point marksman. Is he a
featured player? Not really? Is he an offensive initiator? Not really?
Is he a star? Not really? But he's been damn good in his
role and it's cool to see him get the recognition for that growth. So
I think you can simultaneously be happy that he is getting that recognition for progressing
the right way in his career, for getting vaccinated and having this awesome growth
as a player, because clearly those are not just correlated but one is causation
for the other, and you can also recognize that this shouldn't have happened if
we're solely looking at the starter selections. I do push back against the notion
that if it wasn't going to be Andrew Wiggins, who else did he beat
out? Aside from Draymond Green and there's Karl Anthony Towns, I would have
taken. If we want to go a little bit deeper cut, I would
have taken Aaron Gordon over Andrew Wiggins this year based off the workload that he's
had. A Gary in Denver. I think you could also make DeAndre Ayton
is another big one. So there were front court options in the West.
To me that made a lot more sense than Andrew probably picked Chris stops Porzingis
over him. Still, I'm gonna I'm gonna stay hidden that one. We'll
move right along. Then we've reached the Christops. In the course of the
All Star discussion, uh Sweet lou On Discord asked who's most likely a calve
by the deadline, Eric Gordon, Tarras Leavert, Dennis Shrewder or Nune.
I think we're gonna say none, just because the Nune is always the most
likely answer. That's unless you're talking about Kendrick Nunn, which which this person
is not well. The reason that I was going to say none is just
because I don't think the Calves are going to make some big swing at the
deadline. To do that, you're probably giving up a first round pick,
or you're giving up Colin Sexton maybe, which I find hard to believe given
his injured status and his potential import to the long term horror. I just
don't think that if the Cavaliers are making a move, it's going to be
of a large enough caliber to involve any of those players. They might take
a swing at adding a backup guard who can fill in some of the minutes
that Ricky Rubio vacated with the torn ACL. They might look to get another
defensive presence to spell Jared Allen a little bit down the stretch. I just
don't think that we're going to see anything substantial enough to talk about Eric Gordon
or any player of that caliber. And I would agree with that. My
answer is Dennis Shrewder, though we're not going to allow us to say none,
just because there are things you could do. He fits into the injury
exception they got for Ricky Rubio that would vault them into the attack, so
they'd probably make another move. But you could also get Dennis Shrewder by moving
it's like two minimum contracts or something that keeps you out of the attacks while
also bringing back Shrewder. He seems like the most likely one. My favorite
one for them would probably be Carris Lavert. Just looking at I do think
he could play with Garland and or Sexton, maybe not at at the same
time, but he's played by and large over the past two months really well.
And give you another guy who can dribble and create, and I would
argue he's even better, even better pastor than a Colin Sexton, and so
you're getting an upgrade over there, even if you go ahead and bay Sexton
this summer. Eric Gordon's also intriguing because he gives you some defensive juice and
more rim pressure than any of those guys. But it's, like you said,
unless you're attaching stuff to Ricky Rubio, I'm just not The Calves are
really good. This has found money this season, though to me, we
underestimated them. I get it, but they're they're like not quite as far
along as the grizzliest to me, and so like if you and it's also
it's found money that doesn't expire. You know, sometimes there are seasons where
it's it's such found money, but you can see the expiration date that you're
more tempted to make that all in move. I don't think the Cavaliers fall
into that realm because the pieces are young and are going to continue growing.
This is a sustainable found money situation. Yes, I do get the urgency
to do something with your assets if you're not high on what Sexton is gonna
look like on his next track. Rubio is expiring, so if you're not
going to keep him, it might behoove you to use that money to try
and bring back larger money. I just don't think they're at the point where
the Grizzlies have all these extra first round picks. The Caps do not.
They have their own and basically so if you're moving a first round pick for
any of these guys, I don't know that it's nudging you enough short or
long term to spin it. Maybe if it's like super protected and then turns
into two seconds immediately, or maybe it only cost you the Rubio salary plus
seconds to get Eric Gordon because he owed so much money next year, or
the Caros Lavert price point drop drops. But we've seen the Rockets want a
first for Eric Gordon and the Pacers want two first for Carous Lavert. So
I think you can bet on saying they won't make any move of significance.
Of the three players mentioned, though, I think that Shrewder is the overwhelmingly
likely acquisition just because of the feasibility behind it. I'm with you there,
This is related, So I will skip to a Twitter one really quickly,
truth be told, Ask which franchises are interested in an Eric Gordon trade with
the Rockets. I could probably name twenty nine of them that I was gonna
say the same thing, like all of them. I really love the idea
of him basically anywhere. I mean, he's become such a well rounded player,
who provides that floor spacing, who can put pressure on the rim,
who has some defensive juice, that it's very easy to make an argument for
him in just about every situation. I think someone like the Clippers makes the
most sense because they're able to maximize every single piece of his profile. But
then what are they sending back? Are they really willing to meet that price
point during a season that they might not have Peaque, Paul George, They're
not going to have Kawhi Leonard there you can I think you can reasonably argue
him everywhere. Yeah, and it would not be for a rebuilding team,
and the Clippers can't trade a first round pick. But if you could do
something with Eric Blootzone enough seconds to make it work, he would be great
there as I don't know if they're going to be trying, like with Paul
George and Kauai Out, I don't know what they're ema is going to be
my favorite teams for him, and we were to peg the ones that I
think thinks should be the most aggressive going after him at the deadline. I
wouldn't mind Cleveland thinking about it, just because of all that he does.
I love him in Phoenix. I think it is probably my favorite destination for
him. I think he would be huge for Dallas. So those would be
teams that I would circle that should really be looking at him. You could
also, though, like the Lakers, if you're talking about like the special
package where they have to give up at twenty twenty seven pick. I don't
know that Eric Gordons. That's something the player you want to do it for.
I would do it for Eric Gordon if I were the Lakers, just
looking at at where they are, and so those are the teams that immediately
spring to mind. But I could talk myself into you know, I would
love him on the Bucks they don't just don't have the assets and move them.
Maybe Memphis if you're just talking about expiring money and one of those lower
end first that they have, that could be a fun one. There are
just a lot of different options to choose from, but I think Phoenix or
Dallas. I think those two teams would be the most aggressive going after him
because I believe he would elevate them the most. When we're talking about postseason
bound squads, I might throw the Atlanta Hawks into that same ballpark your Homer.
I got it because I'm a hommer. No, but I mean for
real, because he does provide that wing defense, because he does provide that
secondary creation that they are ultimately still lacking because the offseason pieces have not jelt.
Yeah, you want another Tew would make sense. It's just I can't
figure out the trade that would make it work. The Celtics could really use
an Eric Gordon the Celtics could use basically in everything right now, though they're
like they're okay, I'm biggs. I think Robert Williams Alhorfer there, that's
rock SOLIDY don't need another big sure, Let's go to Christopher from Discord ask
everyone talks about their predictions for what a trade for? What trade a team
is going to do to improve their season? What sort of horrible trade would
you like to see a team you don't like make that would completely eighty six
their season? This is a pure out of spite sort of scenario there.
Look, I'm gonna tell you the one if you didn't think of one yet,
So I'll just go first year, I want to see the Knicks trade
for Russell Westbrook and get off of Julius Rynold Evan Fournier. That is just
the like I proposed this. I'm saving the Lakers season. I thought we
were ruining someone's season. No, weah ruining the knickses trade Julius Randall to
ruin something, doesn't it have to be a good thing. You're ruining Tom
Thimbodeau's ability to not play to ignore playing Cam Reddish by trading Kemba Walker Fournier
and Julius Randall for Russell Westbrook and Bryan Poporak, who actually asked the question
but he came on the podcast last week, said that the Lakers Pod,
you need to send the Knicks a pick in that, and I'm like,
you send them a pick, that's fine. You want to send them a
swap or that twenty twenty seven first, that's fine. I think it helps
the Lakers, but then it also kind of just torpedoes the Knicks season to
the point that this was the team that was steel good coming out as the
biggest surprise of last year everyone thought was at least probably a rock solid playoff
team this year. Just admitting that they're going absolutely nowhere, I feel like
you're fundamentally misunderstanding the premise of the question, because the Knicks, as we
record our twenty three and twenty seven and have shown no signs of upward potentials,
but they showed no signs of that they're going to rebuild either. So
I'm eighty sixteen fair and I don't know that I actually fare any team,
So it's like I'm in the same boat. I think like my best answer
to this question is any move involving James Harden. That would be the best
one. The nets just trading Kyrie Irving, trading James Harden and admitting like
this whole thing was just fragile, beyond reason. So we're just gonna have
to But yeah, I mean, like it's funny. It's funny when maybe
this is going to spiral into a bigger picture discussion. But I think when
you work in any sort of basketball media, you know you've you've been writing
for so long. I wrote for eight years and have been on the editing
side, but still maintain these Twitter accounts and everything, and still spend time
discussing things on basketball Twitter. To some extent, I think anytime you partake
in any of that that you get the accusations that you hate teams, And
it's like the exact opposite. I feel like, all the time I spent
writing and all the time I spent on League Pass watching every team, you
find little things to appreciate about every team. You find one hidden gem who
you enjoy watching. You find a set that you enjoy seeing trotted out there
on a regular basis. There are things that we like watching about just about
every team, even the ones that are truly atrocious. We can find enjoyment
watching them because you're seeing the development of young players. So this idea that
we hate teams is kind of a weird, nonsensical concept to me, because
even if it comes across that way sometimes, like I never wrote anything just
for the sake of being provocative, and I know you don't either, Like,
if we're insulting a team, it's because we feel it's justified. If
we're insulting a player, it's because we feel it's justified. To me,
Like, I don't know that there's a team that I really hate. Yeah,
it would be objectively hysterical if the nets were just like, this is
a disaster. We're stripling down the other one I thought of, And I
don't hate them, and I wouldn't do this. But if Ryan Smith,
you know, the proprietor of the Utah Jazz, is just too scared by
the tax bill, looking at them being two eleven in their last game,
eleven losing what and they just like and they're they just break up. Rudy
Gobert Donovan Mitchell actualizing all the national media's or fans as concerns about those two
not liking each other despite this insistence. I think that everything's fine, They're
going to be okay, and I don't subscribe to the model if they're gonna
have to get rid of Donovan Mitchell, I'm just saying. I'm just saying
it would be hysterical if I do believe a lot of people think they might
have to maybe look at moving Rudy Gobert if they flame out in the playoff
this season, it would be objectively wild if they just decide, to know
what, we're fourth in the West. Now, we've just lost eleven of
our last thirteen. We don't have Joe Ingles, We're probably gonna he's gonna
leave in free and Seam will even play next year, given any towards a
cl and he's gonna have to wait a few weeks to have surgery. But
you have a question on this later, So one type twint. But that
would be the other team where it kind of comes out of nowhere and they're
just eighty six ing their entire season. So Brooklyn or you, Tommy,
the other one would be. And I'll criticize the Bucks, the people in
charge of the Bucks for this. If they just decided, you know what,
we have all this high equity from last year. We're gonna slash our
tax bill, and we're not even gonna try and acquire like a Brook Lopez
proxy since he might not play again this season. And we're gonna look at
moving Chris Milton or Drew Holiday just to try and get cheaper. But that
would be, like any of these decisions by the Nets, the Bucks,
or the Jazz, would just be blasphemous to do that. Let me make
that clear. But Milwaukee just bring back p J. Tucker, who's having
a spectacular season in Miami. I'm just taking your lack of engagement on my
I don't hate any team thing as a tacit admission that you do, and
you're just not sharing it. So I hate I hate the Knicks they are.
Then I despise the Knicks I legitimately, not actually, but also genuinely.
That was a diabolical question. I think it's the best one to say
that. Jakester asked top five candidates for the buy out market and why should
they all go to the Nets? So I made my list of what I
think the five best players who could get brought out are. I don't have
Brooklyn is the best destination for any of them not to ruin Jakes Jakester's vibes.
Here, I will say Daddy is Young made the list, and I
think Phoenix is the best landing spot for him, even though they've kind of
figured out the Beyonbo the big Mass spot with Beymbo and McGhee. But I
think the Nets would be a close second, or maybe tied for first.
There. Let's go through my other four and see if you agree. I've
Gary Harris, who's been playing a lot better of late. He just makes
twenty plus million dollars, so I don't think he's gonna get moved. I
have the Nuggets as actually his best face. I can see it. They
could absolutely use that given all the perimeter injuries. If they suffered they that
secondary tertiary shooting scoring presence. I will say, if we want to bring
this back to the Nets, if they're not going to have Joe Harris back
for the rest of the season, Gary Harrison would make a lot of sense.
I just don't know if they can guarantee him enough playing time to make
that work. And by the way, I was looking at like the Lakers.
The Lakers too, I think makes sense there. Yeah, but they
are just so inconsistent with their rotations, and he's on the tinier And just
do you want to tether any part of your career to Russell Westbrook's team right
now? Absolutely not? There you go the And by the way, I
wasn't including like minimum guys. If Paul Millstop doesn't get traded, he gets
weighted, he can't get brought out. And drag is the obvious one.
Is he going anywhere else other than Dallas? That's exactly what I was gonna
say, Like the Clippers would make sense if they're trying to win still,
but I don't know if they're going to be invested in doing anything other than
cutting their tax bill. Dallas is such an obvious front runner for that one.
I think this exercise gets interesting though. After those three names, I
don't think they're like these obvious buyout candidates. You could hit on Twitter and
discord whatever if you have any suggestions. But the final two that I have
Jeremy Lamb in Indiana. He's like sort of playing right now, but what
the fuck is Indiana doing? And when they're at full strength, I don't
think they actually want to play him, And he's a free agent anyway.
He would be we're talking about the calves not giving up like assets for anyone.
Instead of training for Cars Lavert or Dennis Shooter, maybe you just go
out and get Jeremy Lamb because he's someone who could dribble. Sure, as
you said, we're kind of scraping at the bottom of the barrel on these
ones. Now, Well, I actually didn't mind that one. Actually thought
that was a pretty clever suggestion. I don't know if you have another.
I just I don't. I feel like it's just after those first three names.
It does feel so unlikely. And we've set it before on some previous
episodes that this year's buyout market just doesn't really feel like it's going to be
that significant because with the the out event of the play tournament last year,
and given the widespread parody, parody and uncertainty that has proliferated this season,
there just aren't that many teams that are going to be willing to pay to
get rid of someone. Yes, and my final name it was between Thomas
Adaranski and Torrian Prince, and Prince has played better in recent weeks and shot
the ball better that I went with him. It also leads me believe that
Hey, if Minnesota doesn't trade him, I was expiring contract, they don't
buy him out, but he would be if he wants more playing time.
I had Chicago Milwaukee would be fantastic fits for him if he gets bought out.
Prefer Milwaukee there, But I just I don't see Minnesota being willing to
make a move like that right now while it's on my rise. Well,
talk to Eve if even if there's just content there, you don't have an
incentive to move him. Well, so if you're if you're looking down the
line, there are two scenarios in which it makes sense. Is maybe you
make a move and he just becomes superfluous on your roster. Or maybe you're
trading him as part of another move to a different team who then just buys
him out because they're not in it anyway. And so I think he's a
he's a real buyout candidate. If the Timber will do anything heading into the
deadline, Hoop Informatics X said, you can take the idea of this question
and run with it however you want. Teams now thought experiment. Teams now
consists solely of clones of one player. There's a team of five Nicola yokich
is a team of five Steph Curries, five Lebrons, five Kevin Durants,
and five Ish Mits. Which team would win the championship? What team would
be overrated? What would five Steph Curries versus five Nicola Yokiches look like?
You can expand and take this question wherever you want. Yeah, I spent
way too much time thinking about this today. I think it really depends on
how you frame this. Are we operating in a league where the injury sliders
are turned off? Do we actually have a twelve man roster of these players
or a fifteen man roster so that if one gets hurt, another can step
in, Because I think that changes the answer a lot. If we are
operating in a world without injuries or with an unlimited number of these players as
replacements, I think the answer is Kawhi Leonard because when you do this exercise,
you need both size and the ability to fill every role. So while
it's it's incredibly appealing to have five Steph Curries on the court together, because
what the fuck is a defense going to do? You're going to be in
big trouble. On the other end, you're not going to get many respounds
you're not going to be able to play against any teams with bigger players,
especially skilled bigger players. Conversely, Yokich, for all that he brings to
the table, for all the skill skill with which he operates on the offensive
end, and for the underratedness of his defense, unless you're looking at the
TPA metric, which oversells his defense, he is ultimately a lumbering, plotting
big man. He is not going to be nearly quick enough to keep up
with the guard heavy teams in transition or in the half court sets. You
have to find a happy medium, which to me means you're looking at the
true two way wings. You're looking at Lebron James. You're looking at Jimmy
Butler. You're looking at Kawhi Leonard, You're looking at Jannisan Dakumpo. Jannis
was my first instinct. But ultimately, even if he is impervious to every
kind of defense these days, no matter how much you pack the paint against
him, he can still find a way to get to the basket and score.
You do need some semblance of floor spacing if you're asking this one player
team to operate for a full season and a full playoff run. And win
a championship. So to me, as long as the injuries are turned off,
the answer has to be Kauai because he can defend. He has the
size to match up against bigger players, he has the quickness to stay with
the smaller players. He can shoot, He's going to space out whatever defense
you find. He can pass, he can operate an isolation. To me,
he's the most well rounded player for this exercise. Lebron is probably number
two and is my choice if injuries are a thing. I was about to
ask you, why why Kwai over Lebron? No, if you're turning injuries
off the defense at this stage of his career, because Lebron can turn on
the defensive chops for small stretches. But if we're asking him to be the
only player you've seen in the last five years or so, how frequently he
can get caught napping off the ball. And even if he's playing great on
ball defense, four of him have to play off ball defense too. What
about that is a sentence I never expected to say. What about five kds?
Though? Do not trust the defense against smaller players because we've seen him
do the dance against wings and plays before. Yeah, I think his I
think his defense tends to get sold a little short, but it's still not
quite on the same level as as QUI not even close to the same level.
So he's going to be a scoring nightmare. I just don't know that
I want that style of play. Who would be your choice if you're limited
to non stars, someone who doesn't rank as doesn't have an All Star case
this season. Wow, that is one that I did not prepare for,
and I almost like need to look through a list of names. Do you
have anyone who immediately comes to mind? Frankielkina one would definitely Bey. We
knew that was coming. Kendrick Williams, like if we were taught role player,
role player, I'm not even joking layer role player. So but I
mean, if you wanted to go like the, just as an example of
like the, at least you gonna be an All Star this year, so
it's not fair. But like Fred van Fleet, I'm not even thinking like
that high That was the first name that came to mind, and I thought
that was a little much. I'm not calling him a role player. The
fact that he would be like existing outside of this is sort of the reason
why whatever. But I'm I'm like all the non stars. I didn't really
give that much that that was one that just sprang to me, which would
be like Harrison Barnes, that's a pretty good one. That's like super plug
and play and super scalable. That might be the answer. I'm trying to
think if there's a better one that comes to mind. I don't think there
is. I got I got nobody on that one, Like Bridges. Maybe
Mikail Bridges would be a good one. Would Nicholas the Tune be a good
one, might be a good one. He probably would be. You know,
I think that's the kind of player that we're looking at, looking at
though, a guy who can score involvedvolume, who can defend you ultimately want
the jack of all trades, master of note, if we're looking at that,
if we're looking for that kind of thing. Yeah, Scotty Barnes,
Oh, I mean a little bit worried about the shooting, But for sure
Scott Barnes would og he defends. I don't think there's enough. I don't
know that there's enough offensive juice there. If it's five ogs, one og,
sure, five of them. That's also just too many capital letters.
What about just because we've seen the flashes. Aaron Gordon or Jeremy Grant could
deserve some consideration here. I'd probably still go with Harrison Barnes. But yeah,
I think I'm still sticking with Harrison Barnes there the is he too high
end for this? Miles Bridges, I think he's become too high end,
Gordon Hayward too high end, two high end. I'm just gonna use since
we're just this is completely arbitrary at this point, like we have no defined
ranking parameters whatsoever. For all of my qwie instincts are just yelling at me
at the moment. Okay, last one and just and you had to have
watched the Heat a good amount of this season to understand PJ. Tucker passing.
They're using him as like a post passer, making decisions from standstills.
He's not, he's running. You want PJ Tucker to dribble the basketball?
I don't know a problem with it. I would just I would think about
it. If Okay, if it was PJ. Tucker versus Robert Covington,
I'd put PJ Tucker. You know why? You know why I remember this
question because so I when when we saw this come through the discord, and
I told you this before we started recording. It's like I thought about this
before. What did we do this on a previous episode? Did I write
an article about it back in the day at Bleacher for it. No,
It's because in the summer of twenty nineteen, we did the NBA Math All
Time one on one tournament where we had literally every player in NBA history in
brackets and asked for the fan votes and went through that whole exercise, and
I thought about doing a follow up one that asked this exact question. So
I wanted to approach this from a historical perspective and see who we would take
all time In this same conversation, would you take five Michael Jordan's would you
take five Lebron James? Would you take five? Will Chamberlain's five, Magic
Johnson's, so on and so forth. I think if we're just talking,
that's like a discussion. Another problem if we're talking the peak of each of
their careers. I'm going with Lebron James. I think so too. Jordan
would think John would be the other answers. I think I don't know if
I would want Magic that high in this conversation just because he was never a
go to scorer. He could score, he was an a dept scorer,
but without the without the floor spacing ability. I just wonder if you can
mitigate some of the passing impact. That was an interesting thought exercise. I
didn't anticipate spending as much time on it, but PJ. Tucker was the
answer for both of us. That's final, followed by Frankiela Kina kayone was
looking for for a recap. Let's before we move on, though, I
want to touch on the other aspects of that question. Who would be some
the most overrated team? You know, I am probably gonna go with five
Nicola Yokiches. That was my answer too. That's like he needs other people
who aren't Nicole Yokis around him to maximize the best Nicola Yoki possible. It's
I'm not saying he can't create his own shot, but like other Nicole yokich
Is can't like dart around off the ball, like an Aaron Gordon or Will
Barton, or like Gary Harris when he was there. You know, it
would be an underrated choice. If we're looking at this in like the last
ten years, would be Marcassol, maybe I think there's just enough anticipatory foot
speed that it could work when there are four other Marcusols around you, though
I'm not sure how much that anticipatory spe actually matters. I just don't know
how anyone's going to score another another underrated another underrated one here. If you
want to win games two to nothing, can you imagine five Matisse tables on
the court? I guess? I mean, but who is is he?
Like? He's he holding up against like Biggs? No? Maybe, but
like you still have if you're playing against a team of Biggs, you still
have to throw an entry pass, and that's a dangerous proposition. I feel
like he could win games like thirty to twenty five just solely on transition run
out opportunities. You know, I might. I'm gonna tell you right now
that five Matisse tiples aren't averaging twenty five points a game. Uh, let's
move out of the question from Ryan asked which team could have a Grizzlies slash
Hawks esque rise next and why is it the magic? Yeah? I think
it is the magic. I don't have anyone who I'm even willing to put
in that same ballpark. Why why aren't the Pelicans in that ballpark because I
just don't really trust Zion and beyond him and Josh Giddy, I don't know,
how are the Pelicans you said, not the Thunder. I'm just mixing
up teams now. I just I don't know that there's the same depth of
talent because there might not be that singular superstar in Orlando, but there are
so many different pieces who I can see developing into like a fringe All Star.
It's the same conversation we had before the season started where I said that
I think the Spurs have the fewest future All Stars on their team, which
sold de Jante Murray way too short. But we directly compared them to the
Magic where especially with the emergence of Mo Bamba, now you can go up
and down this roster and find so many intriguing talents who they don't have to
acquire externally. So Jalen Suggs has started to show flashes more recently. Cole
Anthony has shown those flashes throughout the season. Mark Hill Foltz is still going
to emerge and give something at some point. Franz Wagner has been incredible.
Chuma o'keke has come on strong as of late, and we haven't even mentioned
Jonathan Isaac, who is as close to a foundational piece as you're going to
find among all of these candidates. So I just think the depth of potential
answers to this question in Orlando is stronger than what you're going to find anywhere
else. So if you look at someone like the Thunder with Shay Gil,
Just Alexander and Josh Giddy and then a bunch of dart throws, you can
get excited about that, But I don't know that you can to the same
extent, And then in New Orleans like, yes there is Zion Williamson,
Yes there's Herbert Jones. How many other pieces are you getting excited about there?
Let's start. So what I think is also key here is the Pelicans
in relation to the Hawks of last year and the Grizzlies of this year,
is you still need like the semi established or the rising tent poll player.
Orlando does not have that unless Jalen Suggs is going kaboom or Jonathan Isaac does
something on offense and stays healthy in ways that we have not seen. So
you have Zion, you have Brandon Ingram, you have Jonnis Fouancunist. You
have Herb Jones, you have Josh Hart, you have DeVante Graham, you
have Jose Alvarado's given great defensive minutes, and you have I'm just gonna keep
going. Jackson Hayes has shown you flashes. Look at Willy Hernon Gomez has
done for you. What happens if Willy Green decides, Hey, if we're
talking about trying to make the upside play, there's the picks that they'll have
this year, and there's also what if they actually decide to play Trey Murphy
because they still sort of need the player who's exactly like him. And I
think that you know, there, they've gotten better this season while giving minutes
to Sato and Gary Clark, and those aren't players to me, you should
be getting minutes if they're cating towards the bigger picture. And I'll just circle
back to I think you can argue that as of next season, if you're
putting them up against the Magic specifically, they have the two players with the
highest ceilings of next Yeah, so I think that New Orleans is more likely
to be better next season than Orlando. That's just not how I interpret this
question. Because if I think about the Hawks and the Grizzlies. They did
have that one singular foundational building block, but then they had eight hundred more
players who went kaboom to some extent, you know, they had guys who
got that much better and were able to become that much better of a supporting
cast. And all of those names that you mentioned in New Orleans, how
many of those have like eight more rungs on the ladder To assent, I
don't know that we're getting a gigantic lead out of brandon Ingram or Josh Hart
at this point. I know that we're not getting that out of Yona's valanciunas
relative to the level at which he's playing right now. I think with Orlando,
you can go up and down that roster and find guys who if they
all make that leap simultaneously, you go from the bottom to contending for the
top. And that's how I interpret this question. It's a It's not a
likelihood of being the better team, it's the magnitude of improvement potential. So
you're basing it off of because the Magic players are worse. Yes, yes,
because they have a lower I don't think so. Because they have a
lower baseline and a higher ceiling. So, if if everything goes according to
plan, which team is better Orlando New Orleans? To me, the answers
Orlando. How realistic is that? I don't know, but it is at
least somewhat realistic that they get enough out of so many crucial young players that
they make a gigantic leap. I think that the eighty percent outcome here is
that New Orleans is better than Orlando. I'm curious about that twenty percent that's
left, and I think that if we look at it that way, there's
just so much more room for growth because we're not talking about just making a
leap into the bottom of the Western Conference playoff picture or the bottom of the
Eastern Conference playoff picture. We're talking about a Hawks team that went from the
bottom of the lottery competing for top picks in the draft to an Eastern Conference
finals appearance. We're talking about a Memphis team that was not in the playoffs
and is now being viewed as a potential contender in the West. So New
Orleans, I think if you're if you're building out like the curve of their
of their most likely outcomes, the mean is going to be set higher,
but that distribution, that distribution is going to be a lot narrower, and
Orlandos is a lot wider and has more top end outcomes. It might be
wider because I think it has more lower right now comes. I don't see
how has it does it does I don't see how it has more top and
outcomes when you're looking at like, first of all, the Grizzlies were a
playoff team in each of the past two years, so it's not like they
were just disappearing from relevance. And you're talking about like the Hawks having John
Collins and Trey Young like sort of your two incumbent cornerstones, the Grizzlies having
a healthy Jennen Jackson junior plus Jaw. I don't think I'm not looking at
the Grizzlies roster. Desmond Baine made the leap. No one else on the
team has just made like this gargantuan leap. Aside, like, if you
want to includ Jennet Jackson junior Jomrant, fine, but that's where the Zion
on William stuff comes into play. There is not anyone on Orlando's roster next
season who is going to sniff the transcendence of a healthy Zion Williamson, there's
or a Trey Young when he was with the Hawks, or I don't think
you can make a one to one comparison here regardless, just because every organization
is different. I'm just I don't see the path to them having more top
end outcomes when you don't have a player you do need that teen pole or
someone with the path to become that tempole star during a season like this,
like Zion Williamson has a chance to be if he's healthy, one of the
five best players in the NBA your team by extension. Sure, but well,
what are the chances that he's actually healthy enough to achieve that outcome?
Why? But why would you ascribe that more likely to Orlando when what are
the odds that Jonathan Isaac or Marquel Foltz are healthy. See I think that
at this point, even if Isaac has had a number of major injuries,
they still don't give me the sense that he's like super injury prone or unmotivated.
That seems really unfair to Zion because Jonathan Isaac is about to like not
play basketball for two years, and you can say like they're worried about Zion's
conditioning, but he also had injuries that the Pelicans organization chose to hide there.
Yeah, I don't know, It's just it's the perception though, because
he's had the recurring injuries, the recurring out of shape issues, the reports
about falling asleep and meetings, the reports about wanting out, the ballooning weight
issues. It's just there are so many things that are pointing towards an unlikelihood
of him returning to that level we want him to be at, Whereas Isaac
has had to deal with two major injuries that suck and have kept him out
for a really long time. But we haven't heard any of those stories.
We also just haven't seen him on the floor like we've seen Zion, we
also haven't seen him on the floor. I just that's like, I'm actually
just surprised that that would be your logic there, because I would even argue,
who on the Magic next season are you're going to give a seventy five
percent chance or better being better being a more valuable, better player than Brandon
Ingram. I think you can. I think you can make it. I'm
going to dump all over your Zion Williamson takes right now, there's just being
him play basketball and forever. So just assume he's going to be at a
fringe all star level for someone who is still I don't want to say underdeveloped,
but very limited offensively. And the other thing is like they just I
don't know, like they're they're deep. When you look at their young players,
it's but they're not. It's more of an egalitarian field than the singular
star carrying them all the way to the top. Because no, I don't
I don't think that there's anyone who's going to get in that. Like all
NBA conversation, I do think that there are a lot of guys who are
going to be top end starter or could be top end starters and are going
to be so to me, it's just a different roster construction that could promote
a similar type of leap. I the only way I just see is if
you're just assuming the team has to be working from a or baseline slay more
room for glow growth. I really don't understand how I just to me personally,
I don't see a pathway through Orlando having more top end outcomes or even
a higher like I don't see either or I just don't see Orlando's case for
it as really as next season. But I guess this. Agreements make podcasts
go around, so absolutely every one once in a while always find one.
We have two questions about the Jazz from Karragan asked what did the Jazz do
after the Joe Ingles a cel injury? And then from other friends of the
podcast, Lazarus Jackson asked, is Utah stuck? I assume he is referring
to like many others are referring to the Jazz or two and eleven as we
record this over their last thirteen games, during which time they are twenty they
are twenty if in points scored per possession and twenty fifth in points allowed per
possession. I will note that they have missed Rudy Gay for a chunk of
that time. But I do think it's fair to just wonder what There are
so many layers to this, because if Joe Ingles was one of your I
don't want to view it through. He was one of your primary trade chips
as an expiring contract, is it more likely they get traded? Less likely
you guys traded? He was also really important to your backup playmaking packing order
because you don't have one. Really there is Commy and Mitchell, and then
there was Ingles, and now there's Conley and Mitchell. And who's the third
best playmaker on this team? Is it? It is Jordan Clarkson. You
have a problem. It's probably Jordan and Clarkson. I think the answer is
that they're a little stuck here. I'm not as worried about the recent slide
just because it's coincided with, as you mentioned, Rudy Gay being out.
It's coincided with Rudy Gobert being out of the lineup sometimes and having to reintegrate
pieces, and it just feels like we haven't really gotten to see the full
strength Utah Jazz in a while, which we know is so good. But
the issue is we're not going to get to see it because Joe Ingles,
even in a bit of a down season for him, his defense hasn't been
quite as impactful. He's struggled a little bit more with his shot, he's
had to take on a smaller role, but he's still so vital to what
this team does. So I don't really know what the path forward is here
because you don't really have the trade ammunition to go out and replace him.
You just don't, so to me, like the most likely path is really
hoping for some quick development from the young guys. I mean, if you
can get more out of Davion Mitchell, if you can, if you can
get more out of Jared Butler, for example, then you have a chance
to take to take somewhat of a step to mitigate some of this this loss.
But I don't really see how it's going to be solved externally. The
Yeah, I actually don't see how it's gonna be solved internally. Most of
pause, I don't think it's gonna be solved now because it feels like I
don't either. Now you need too many things. They're not like what does
Jared Butler provide you? I just don't think they're ever gonna give a chance
in the regular season, at least this year. And so it's more like
when you go to outside the organization, what does him plus Jordan Clarkson.
Now, I guess at this point get you. Does that get you into
the If it gets you into Josh Richardson discussion, that definitely helps you.
But then you're still light on playmaking. If you can still use angles and
seconds to get Robert Covington that certainly is going to help your defense, but
you're still going to be light on playmaking. Is there like a mega trade
where you're getting like Shruder and Josh Richardson from Boston, You're not at this
point. I don't think you could get Marcus Smart because I do think unless
the Boston really loves Clarkson, I think Ingles would have been important to that
deal as an actual player for Boston. I don't think it would have just
been his inspiring salary. So they need a Josh Richardson type player, but
they also need to address backup point guard now. And I think there are
people that would argue that they want to see and I've seen them argue or
listen to them argue that they want someone who's going to give you some help
rim protection as well. And so all of a sudden, you're looking at
a Jazz team that feels like it needs so much. I think some of
those needs can be addressed in tandem. Like a Robert Covington I think would
enable would empower your help defense behind Rudy Gobert and then also just give you
more defensive juice on the perimeter. In general, Josh Chricherson really probably only
solves one thing, and that's like defensive mobility, and he can he's hitting
threes this season, but he really can't trust him to play make for you.
Even if you tried to go out and get a denist Ruder, like
that's really only solving your backup point guard issue and playing him. And if
you're not giving up Jordan Clarkson as part of that deal, what are you
doing there? I don't think Maxie clean was playing too well, and I
don't think Dallas would help out Utah anyway. But something that I had given
thought to is like a Jordan Clarkson for Maxi Cleveland, Reggie Bullock, like
take on that money of Bullock who has not been playing simone. Dallas had
some moments lately, but like that's not a team that's going to help Utah.
So you're also in this situation where you have even more finite options and
someone in the West is probably not helping you. I do wonder if,
like because of the Ingles injury, does someone like Carris Lavert make sense for
them, because now you need that playmaking element. Poor Eric Gordon. If
you can somehow find a way to acquire him, like he does check more
of the boxes that we're looking to check than any of these than any of
these other players. Yeah, I think the deal would have to be because
I still wouldn't give up. I think you can withstand pretty much trading anyone
but Mitchell and Gobert and Connley would be my third one. But I still
wouldn't trade boy On Bodonovitch. Just someone his size who shoots as well as
he does and to show what he can do in the playoffs. I think
if you can do like Eric Gordon and then it's for Clarkson slash ingless contract
that that's just what has to be at this point unless you're gonna forever step
by or your way to Gordon, and then stuff like are you giving up
at twenty twenty six? First for Eric Gordon in that scenario, I wouldn't
think so. But as Jared Butler and second is going to be enough in
that scenario, I'd probably also doubt that. But yeah, in Eric Gordon
or Kari Silbert feel like players that could solve I don't want to say a
multitude, but more than one issue for the Jazz, and I think Robert
Covington could as well. But I do think they're in this situation where they
might have like three discernible holes despite being so deep and despite still having to
steal your phrasing from before, they have a championship top end outcome like that
is remaining intact. It just and I don't think you alluded to this too.
Joe Eagles was not good for most of the season, and so I
don't the idea of him is what you're losing more than him in practice,
but it is opening more of another weakness for you because all of a sudden,
your third best playmakers we just said, is it's Jordan Larson D fours,
which is just not a good place. I think the best case scenario
for Utah here is hoping that the topsy turvy nature of this season keeps rearing
its ugly head up through the trade deadline, because if you have so many
teams that are in contention not just for play in spots, but for like
home court advantage in the first round, for real playoff spots that don't require
that play in tournament, maybe you have so many organizations reticent to make moves
because they don't feel like they have to that Jared Butler and a pair of
second round picks actually gets it done for Eric Gordon because no one is offering
more and because of what his own next season that might help them because of
what Yeah, yeah, but I think that's what you're hoping for, is
that somehow the market diminishes the price for these players who are actual impact players
enough that you can get in on the sweepstakes without ever really being in on
a sweepstakes. Yeah, because like Harrison Barnes, Jeremy Grant outcome, I
just don't see you would have to trade more distant first and swaps than you
should be for those players. If you can, if you can parlay Boyan
Bogdanovich into something like that, yeah, you hate to lose him, You
hate to lose that size, that shooting ability, everything he brings. But
if you can turn him into a do everything player like Jeremy Grant, if
you can turn him into three rotation players, then you might need to think
about doing that because you have so many cracks to fill, Like ultimately,
you have to consider breaking up the core to some extent if by doing it
you can yourself in that one area to strengthen yourself in a whole bunch of
different areas. So now I'm gonna have three follow up questions for you I
only had I only had one, and now because of you talking, I
have three. Would you do Billion Bardonovitch for Josh Richardson and Dennis Shrewder No
for the job. I don't think I do it either. I also would
not do I don't think Harrison Barnes is enough of an upgrade over Boyon Bogdanovitch,
like if you were to give him up in a Jeremy Grant trade.
Somehow I get it, because Grant's defensive ceiling is so much higher than Barnes
is and his offensive ceiling is lower. But like, I think he would
just do more of what you do now if you could turn him into five
Harrison Barnes. The other two questions are how what is the what if they
have to pick one, what is the biggest priority of the three that we
talked about. I think it's gotta be the wing defense. I thought I
would agree, but I almost feel like it needs to be the tertiary playmaking,
which speaks to how little I trust shot maker and creator for himself.
Fine, but like Daniel House, Junior hasn't been bad for them, and
so to me, it almost feels like they need someone else who can like
table set the most. So here's my reasoning though, Like when you get
to a playoffs situation, because ultimately, like this is just about the postseason
for Utah at this point, rotations consolidate and you're gonna play Donovan Mitchell forty
minutes a game, You're gonna play Mike Conley thirty eight minutes a game.
You aren't going to do that with Ruddy Gobert because the defensive intensity that he
brings isn't fully scalable to that level and it just puts too much pressure on
him. So I think that you have to do something that alleviates that burden
a little bit. That's fair. And the final question would be, scenario
Utah gets bounced in the first round of the playoffs, what are the chances
that both Rudy Gobert and Donovan Mitchell are still on this team next season?
More unlikely than likely? What are you gonna say? I think it's more
unlikely than it is likely. So if I gave me the over under of
you're I think I'm taking the under there. And it kills me too,
because I love that pairing from a pure basketball standpoint. I love the two
of them together, and it's why I can't stop myself from picking the Jazz
to win series and championships each of the last few years. And it hasn't
turned out well. But that's how it goes when you make playoff predictions,
because a lot has to go right, and a lot is already going wrong
for this Jazz team in a way that is going to prevent those expectations from
existing this season. But failure after failure adds up, and ultimately winning is
the only panacea, and they're they're probably not going to be winning. And
if, as you're stipulating, a first round exit actually happens, then there's
going to be too much pressure to do something. Yeah, yeah, you
you have grown fond of picking the Jazz to win series. And I don't
think Joe Angles's absence is the It is part of the impetus for this discussion,
but this was a conversation. It's the proverbial straw that broke the camel's
back, just because like now you need because you would have needed playmaking if
you were trading Joe Angles. But now it's like whether or not you trade
Joe angles. You need extra playmaking. Let's get to a few more questions
here. The NBA Chicken asked the West standing seemed to have somewhat settled.
Do you see much changing with who is in the top six and playing?
You could almost say the same about the East and so the West right now?
Phoenix, Golden State, Memphis, you taught Denver, Dallas are your
six playoff teams. Let's start there. Would you predict anyone to fall out
slash joint? Not really? I think I'm with you. There's I'm just
not going to fall into the temptation for the Lakers. There's also a three
and a half game gap between six and seven right now, which is fairly
substantial at this point of the season. So you're either counting on the Clippers,
who just don't have their top and players available, or the Timberwolves,
who, as fun as they've been recently, that's still a big climb and
a big leap for a young team to make. I don't trust the Lakers.
The Trailblazers might as well throw in the towel here and beyond that we
can stop right and I think two of the teams and the four of the
teams in the play in territory right now, the Clippers and the Blazers,
I think you can argue are going to end up being worse as the season
goes on, just missing talent. The Lakers know they're just too far behind.
And then if the Timberwolves do something, perhaps, but I'm gonna go
with you and say you might even be able to lock in the order.
I think maybe Memphis Utah has some jockeying left, but Utah is like quietly
now three games back in the lost Colm of Memphis, so the order might
be set. I was gonna say for the play in I'm not sold on
the Blazers staying there, and I could see the Spurs or the Pelicans.
I'm out on the Kings. It's just they could they could make a trade,
not make a trade, blow it up, make a buy trade for
Ben Simmons. I don't care San Antonio. And if New Orleans does get
Zion back at any point, like they've been scrappy enough over the past month
or so to make you think like, okay, is Dame coming back for
Portland. They lost not little for the season. Yeah, this has been
playing better so with Roco, But are they gonna make a selling trade?
I think if we're ranking the likelihood for teams finishing in that ten spot,
I might go Spurs, Pelicans, Kings, Blazers, Spurs Pelicans, Kings,
Blazers. I'll probably put the Kings below the Blazers, and I'm gonna
put the Pelicans above the Spurs just because, well, I guess it doesn't
matter because they don't play Thaddeus Young anyway, and I'm stilling for the Pelicans,
but the Spurs' feeling feeling reckless. If I'll look at the ease really
quickly, the six teams right now, Chicago, Miami, Philadelphia, Cleveland,
Milwaukee, Brooklyn, is anybody else leaving entering that fold? I could
see Cleveland dropping out of it. I still get the sense that Cleveland is
like a little bit of a paper tiger here where I buy so many of
the pieces. But it also feel like what we've seen to this point is
everything going right, aside from the Colin Sexton injury, like you're getting star
level production out of Kevin Love and the Rubio injury. Garland has been unbelievable,
Alan has been unbelievable, and they haven't gone through those dips that you
typically see when players ascend to that level and are tasked with carrying so much
responsibility. So I could see like a little bit of a late season malaise
dropping them to seven or eight. But who is going to take over that
spot, because I don't know how much more in season upside the Hornets have.
I think the Raptors are, the Celtics are, The Hawks are the
most likely ones there. The Hawks in particular are finally looking like they're playing
fun basketball, like things are clicking, but they're also five and a half
games back of Cleveland right now, and I don't know if that's just too
much of a gap to close. I would frame it this way and East
and look, if you're not going to pick Cleveland, you could say,
if you want, those are gonna be six. Fine. If you're not
going to pick Cleveland, you're picking Chicago, Miami, Joel and Beads team,
Jannie's team, or the Nets, Nets or the closest of falling out
of it. I think I might actually go with Toronto as the team with
the best chance of leaping in. I'm just so higher on their upside.
What I will say about the East I don't think this order is set.
I do think the ten teams that we're going to see and slash my officers
set, but I'm probably gonna go. I think Cleveland does finish sixth out
of those top six teams, but does finish in the top six, and
then I would probably go Atlanta, Toronto, Boston, Charlotte. Charlotte's defense
has been a lot better of late, but I'm just curious whether it This
is not It's not an insult to Charlotte. I just think that the other
three teams, Toronto, Boston, and Atlanta clearly have more juice to squeeze
here. I might like Charlotte better than Boston because I really think there's a
chance Boston cells I'm not talking Marcus Marter Jalen Brown, but ducking the Tacks,
maybe getting rid of Shrewder and their offense as flimsy as it is.
But I mostly agree with the order, and I think more likely than not
the six teams that are there. Order will change, sure, but I
think those are probably the six teams that are gonna stay. I think so
too. I'm just not as confident in that as I am in the West.
I think, yeah, I'm probably I don't know if i'm I might
be just equally confident at this point. No, I can't see it.
I can't see it in the West, like Atlanta or Toronto could just go
on a bender. Are you ruling out Atlanta winning ten games in a row
and suddenly their fourth or fifth in the continent? Yeah, okay, Yeah,
there are more there are more teams, There are more options when you
look at Boston, Toronto, even Charlotte plus Atlanta. That's that's a great
point. Spefy ask a wow question for a future mail back. Which MBA
fan base do you think is the worst. I've been a Suns fan since
I was five years old, and I don't think any team has fans that
are more genuinely hateful towards an unappreciative of their home team than Phoenix. And
so this is interesting question because I think what it's phrased. I actually like
the way it's phrased. A lot of people want to know, like what
fan bases do we hate interacting with? But He's species is sex essentially asking
which fan base doesn't love their team enough? Right, That's how I interpreted
it. Anyway, I don't know that I have the information to properly answer
that question. That's to me, that's one of those where like we can
gauge the fan bases that we like interacting with the least, but I don't
embed myself within these fan base cultures enough to properly answer, Well, that
was sort of That's what I'm saying, is like, which team which fan
bases doesn't love their not meanest? Which fan base do you think doesn't appreciate
like their team or it's too hard on their team? Phoenix, I don't
know if that was the first one that's spreading to mind. I think their
standards have definitely increased over the past couple of years, but that's natural given
where they've been. Like I, that's a look, I've given this questions,
so I'm kind of this is going to be this might be weird,
but I kind of think that it's I don't even want to say this because
it's very really in trouble for saying it. Do I say it? Should
I say I don't have an answer? Maybe that's a cop out. No,
I really just don't because I think it requires you to have such a
working knowledge of how each fan base not just interacts publicly, but also privately
because to me, these aren't like the public facing conversations. It's the two
people who are watching the game and they're saying to each other like how much
they hate their team and failing to appreciate it. And I just don't know
that we're privy to those conversations. I think it's the Sixers. It might
be the Heat, but like with the Sixers, because like that did come
to mind because Philadelphia is so notorious about booing its own players. But to
me, that also suggests a level of engagement and a level of standards that
they expect their players to live up to. And if you don't believe in
your team, if you hate your team, those don't exist. Like booing
is a sign of passion. Is it not like you don't do something if
you don't care, because if you don't care, you don't give a shit
enough to boot. I was looking at it more from a perspective of overreacting
to short term developments, where I do see an element. I haven't always
seen it, but there's like a live and die subculture of Phoenix Suns Twitter
that I feel like I've seen when stuff goes wrong or right and it could
fluctuate wildly depending on what an outcome of a given game or a couple games
is. And I feel that same zemblance. I've felt it from Toronto a
little bit, but I do think they just tend to be more optimistic and
think that they're overlooked the fans there, and they're for the most part,
they're probably right. And then Denver is very much like their fan base may
not be the biggest because it feels like interesting the Nuggets should be higher,
but the ones who are loyal the Nuggets think they never get enough recognition,
whereas Miami and Philly, I feel very much. And last season, like
in Miami, with some of the stuff that'spo Is doing, all of a
sudden, he was being questioned more or that Bamata Bio wasn't being aggressive enough
because the heat weren't as dominant in the regular season as they were necessarily the
season prior. And this season it's been more hunky dory because not that expectations
were lower, but they're way deeper than I think anymore and thought, and
then with the Sixers, outside of Joel and Bead, it doesn't feel like
there's a consistent reaction or perspective or opinion of any player on that team.
There's maybe Seth Curry probably comes closest. I won't even die into the Ben
Simmon stuff. Like Tobias Harris has gone he's pariah right now, but he's
also been beloved at points when he's not being asked to do too much on
offense. I've even seem like the opinions of the Matisse fibe feels like they
fluctuate. So I'm not trying to sing you a lot of fan base.
I do feel like the Heat and the Sixers though, or the two teams
that kind of sprang to mind for me. I thought Phoenix, a Sons
fan, asking this, I thought it was interesting, And I do think
what you also kind of alluded to, though, is that success can kind
of foment some of this. Yeah, I think the the other potential answer
here is the Lakers, just because there is a subsection of Lakers fandom that
truly is knowledgeable about the team and passionate about the team. But they're probably
the organization that has the largest amount of and I hate this word because I
truly believe that it is possible to be a good casual basketball fan but casual
in the sense that like they don't really care, like there's they're in it
for the celebrity, They're in it for the status of rooting for the Lakers.
So because there's such a tendency to think that every player available in the
trade market is always going to go there, and that every role player is
going to be a superstar and the championships are the expectation every year, I
think that's a potential answer, but it doesn't encompass the entirety of the fan
base because there are good Lakers fans. There are a lot of good Lakers
fans. We just the bad Lakers fans tend to be amplified in a toxic
way. Let's wrap up with these nuggets questions, and also shout out to
Ryan, who had basically the same question as MBA Chicken. I had them
highlighted together and then didn't name it. So MBA Chicken and Ryan asked about
the East and West playoffs standings. Shouts to both of them. We'll start
here. Let's see if we can get through these nuggets ones. We invariably
have so many. Do any of these need to be looped together? So
a lot of them are Yokic centric Surprise surprise, ocker Anthony asked, who's
paying talking heads to discount Yoki's MVP. What's your best crackpot theory? I
do want to I don't want to insert myself here because I know that I
am not like the peak of national media. I have published two NBA MVP
ladders in the past month. Yokich has been at the top. I've also
seen him consistently mentioned on Twitter among certain national media members as one of the
two or three most likely candidates. I think that's absolutely where he belongs.
I don't watch enough sports debate TV, and by watch enough, I don't
watch it at all to wonder how they're glossing over him. I have seen
like Nick Wright with fighting some like the Nuggets record at one point, and
that's things you can't do. But I do push back against the notion that
if you think the answer is Yannis, if you think the answer is I
know, Steph has fallen off, but he's still been important to Golden State.
But like, if you think let's just let me use you honest,
if yeah beat, if you if you think it's Embad or yannest or instead
of yokis I don't think that would be called a crackpot theory. I do
think that there was. It did feel like there was more resistance last year
to picking Yokich than there should have been. I also think there's more resistance
to him this year, but that it's in the grander context of we placed
way too much fucking stock and team records for this award, and that that's
just my read, honest, So I want to think at that out of
the way there before you grab the talking Yokis right now is per draft Kings
is third in MVP odds heading into games on January thirty. First, he's
plus three eighty, Jannest is plus three hundred, and mbat is plus two
twenty. What's interesting is Yokis was like twelve to one only a week ago.
Yeah, it changes, it changes, It fluctuates, and like everyone
has because there's no like true definition for MVP, everyone is going to have
different takes, and anyone who's looking for something to complain about can amplify takes
that don't agree with their line of thinking. But to me, like the
odds are the cumulation of all of that, where this is where people are
putting the money. This is where books are setting the money in order to
make the money and all of that. So like that to me is more
important than any one national analyst, national pundit who is excluding your favorite player
from the conversation. Is Yokich a little bit more discredited? Probably, so
like if he should be the favorite right now? In less team success is
a huge impediment, which for some people it's going to be. And why
that is, like how long do we have? Because I don't know that
there's really a well defined answer. My theory, my crackpot theory here would
be that it's just because the media in general ultimately wants to give it self
importance. So when you have a player who is not American, who does
not play a traditional style, who does not play the style that lends itself
to traditional highlights. Because for all of Yoki's passing excellence and creative skilled plays,
he's not throwing down thunderous dunks. He's not putting up these these transition
coast to coast highlights. They're they're reliant on his ridiculous passing ability. Because
he came out of the second round, because he plays in a Denver market
that does again with the exception of the Nuggets. Diehards does tend to care
way more about football and hockey than basketball. For all of those reasons,
it feels like he is still somewhat of an outsider to this discussion of the
best player in the world, add us to NBA supremacy, to however you
want to phrase it, And I don't know that we've really had a player
who checks all of those boxes. You know, We've had non American players
win MVP, We've had second round picks go on to become the best player
in the world. We've had players who play non traditional games get recognition as
MVPs. But when all of that is happening together, I think that there
is a certain subconscious pushback from media members who are used to their takes being
validated by what actually happens and being unwilling to look outside those norms to recognize
a talent for what it is. But again, like I think you could
have this conversation about anyone any given season, because there are so many prominent
voices across the NBABDIA landscape who have differing opinions. If you want to find
someone who is championing Yokich right now on a worldwide scale, you can find
them. If you want to find someone who's not, you can find them.
And the same goes for every player every season because there is such a
wide swath of takes and they don't all align. Because if we if the
NBA came out and said, Okay, team success should matter thirty percent and
narrative should matter twenty percent, then we're going to have we're going to have
a more consistent evaluation of MVP. But if you ask, like, even
between us, we have different ways of thinking about the MVP award because there
is no quantification of it, and we can attempt to do that, but
still we're applying subjective valuations to different elements of the conversation. And even if
we include team success, is that rating is that win loss record? Is
a team success with that player on the court? How much do we hold
their teammates against them? How much do their teammates prop them up? Because
there aren't defined answers to these questions, of course, there's not going to
be consistency. So I get why Nuggets fans feel aggrieved about this because it
has been fairly clear from a statistical perspective that Yoki is playing like the best
player in the world. It has been for quite some time. I also
get why there's pushback to that aggrievedness, because there are people who are championing
his cause, who are talking about how ridiculously good he is, and that's
all that dichotomy is always going to exist. The only thing I'll add,
because that was a fantastic from all rant, They're like, we need a
simonym with an f some for some alliteration there is. The other thing is
just too that if you're making a case for someone who's not Yokich, it
turns into you invariably pointing out why Yokich isn't the MVP, and that's how
the discussion gets framed. A lot is because you have to make a case
for others. And I don't think it's always necessary, but I do think
the inherent risk is you diminish or it's not even diminished, but you're pointing
out the flaws in others cases while you're making the case for why you've picked
who you have. And I don't think that slant is always disingenuous, but
but it can me And if there's a let's say, a common second candidate,
which I think him beat has come up a lot lately. You're gonna
end up pointing out like why he's more valuable than Yokich to certain people,
and that's going to make it seem like Yokich's getting the like short shrifted there.
I want to shout out friend of the podcast, Brian to Porak here
because he had a great exchange on Twitter this January thirty, first date that
we're recording this. He and Ryan Blackburn, who is a Nuggets writer who
is the site manager for Denver Stiffs. Ryan had had tweeted about his updated
MVP ladder and how Yokich was at the top, and Brian responded that he
is also writing about this and has the same the same take. So after
a back and forth, Brian said, I'm just trying to enjoy both incredible
players because he's a Sixers fan, referring to Joel Embiad and Yokich instead of
only one of them, And to me, like, that's where we need
to be striving to get as NBA fans, as enjoyers of this sport.
Is not denigrating one player to prop up another, because your MVP case for
Yokich does not need to mention a single player who is not on the Nuggets.
Your MVP case for Joel Mbid, which can be totally valid, does
not need to mention a single player who's not on the seventy six ers.
They are both such incredible basketball players, and the same goes for Janis and
whoever else you want to throw into this conversation that you can and should make
those cases appealing only to their merits instead of trying to put down other players
to make those points. It is possible to enjoy two rival players in unique
ways. We should all strive to do it. So shout out to Brian
for actually embodying that practice. This might be this question is going to risk
us diminishing Yokitch in some way. But who Hardwood brain? They think their
name is Mark? Is it too early to ask if Nicole Yoki should be
in a conversation for the best big man ever? Yeah? It is.
I mean we're still like Will Chamberlain Kareem abdul Jabar and it's Bill Russell like
exactly because we need to we need to pad that more. Will Chamberlain averaged
five hundred points a game for an entire season. He's like the was it
a different era? Yes, Kareem Abdul Jabbar is the all time scoring leader.
He maintained his excellence from the time that the Milwaukee Bucks won a title
in nineteen seventy one and even before that to the Lakers title winning teams in
the late eighties. You know, there there are so many players that Kimilaju
On, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal, like, the list goes on and
on, where Yokich just ceiling right now. If you want to talk about
whether he's having the best peak for a big man considering the compe editiveness of
this era and the rule changes in the style of play, changes that have
prompted biggs not being as end vogue, then yes, I think you can
make a convincing argument the level at which he's playing right now deserves to be
put alongside all of those other Biggs in the pantheon of basketball greatness. But
we need to see it for a lot longer before we're talking about Nicola Yokich
being on the Mount Rushmore of NBA big man the I would agree with that,
thinking it is wild that we can at least consider it without it sounding
ridiculous, because that's how good he is, but I don't know that you
can making a case right now would be hard. I think we need to
see his peak just and it will be extended, but like we need to
get to a point where we can look back further on his peak. If
that makes any sense. It does absolutely. Let's love these two last questions
Nuggets questions together since they're kind of the same thing. Kevin asked, what's
a realistic ceiling for the Nuggets this year? Assuming Jamal Murray doesn't come back
before the playoffs? My additive here would be they were granted an injury exception
from Michael Porter Jr. It just doesn't mean that he's out for the year,
but it does it does fact that he's out for the year. And
then this one came from t JR. Asked after Wednesday in Utah, Denver
will have the easiest remaining schedule in the NBA with nineteen home games in twelve
orrold games. Is yo kids really going to drag that team to the third
seed again? So maybe start with the ladder? Where do you think?
Well, I guess they're the same thing. It's like, what is Denver's
ceiling? As is no more substantial editions including Jamal Murray. Look right right
now as we're recording this, Denver is five and a half games back of
the Memphis Grizzlies for the third game. It is only one game back of
the Utah Jazz for the four seed. I don't think that there's enough time
left in this season, given the level at which Memphis is playing and the
fact that the Grizzlies could continue to get better as these young players get even
more time on the court for Denver to match or surpass Memphis. I do
think it is eminently possible that Denver ends up posting a first round playoffs series
by virtue of having the number four seat, they could win the title.
Are they are in that realm of teams where I don't think that they should
be a favorite. But you should not rule out the ability of this team
to go on a run that results in the team holding up to Larry O'Brian
Trophy at the end of the year, especially because that first question presumes that
even if Jamal Murray is out for the regular season, he's going to play
in the playoffs, and if you get anything out of him, Yokich can
single handedly win a series against just about anyone right now, Like, he's
pretty darn matchup proof. There is not a single player who has been able
to completely neutralize him time and time again. So given how he's playing,
this team could beat anyone. So I don't know that I want to rule
out a title ceiling. I don't think it's particularly likely, but I would
put I would put Denver in that category with Phoenix, Golden State, Memphis,
maybe not even Utah right now, Miami, Chicago, Philadelphia, Milwaukee,
Brooklyn of teams where like, yeah, if you told me that they
were the champion at the end of this season, I wouldn't be totally shocked.
My jaw wouldn't hit the floor. I'd be a little surprised. But
I think it's realistic. They need to want more back to have that title
ceiling. That is in the class. But again, I think the way
that question was framed presumes that he is available for the postseason. If he's
not available for the regular season, he's not available for the postseason. How
I review it, because why are you bringing him back at that point?
You need to bring him back before the playoff little a little ramp up periods,
and I do think he brought up a good point about how they're kind
of I don't want to say maxed out, but the regular season ceiling is
tough because they've played you know, you want to look at their home games
and whatnot, fine, but like they've played about the middle of the road
difficulty of schedule now, so they're not actually going to have the easiest schedule
when looking at their opponents. So there will be nights where they just feel
shorthanded or are facing really good opponents and just lose. I do think if
if you're gonna tell me Jamal Murray comes back, if you can get him
twelve to fifteen games in the regular season, I will say they're seiling as
a title ceiling. If we're something he doesn't play for the rest of the
year, I think they can win a playoff series. I just think once
you get into what teams they would probably be facing in round two, whether
it's you know, is it a Memphis, is it a Phoenix, is
it a Golden State, is it a Utah? Because without Jamal Murray,
I'm not picking them against Utah. It would be really tough. But that's
also a incredibly impressive ceiling to have without not just Jamal Murray, but then
also your third most important player in Michael Porter Jr. And that speaks to
a lot Denver. Their depth has been an issue, but like what Aaron
Gordon has been able to do for them, And then Yokich says, it
says more about Yokish than anyone who the Hillary kidding, But that would be
where I'm at if you tell me Jamal Murray gets any sort of like semi
real regular season sample size. Denver's title ceiling is intact without MPJA. If
he's not around at all, as his MPa is not around at all,
I'll give them they'll win a playoff series. I don't even care about the
seeding because, like you said, I do think Yokich is good eno the
beat pretty much anyone. No, you don't want to go up against Golden
State or Phoenix in round one. That would be the the caveat there.
I do want to end here really quickly because we went through a lot of
nuggets stuff. This is the final question from Salacious b Crunch, and it's
also a Chigo's question as well because they're both Spurs questions related. Salatious beat
Crunch asked what move, what move should the Spurs make before the deadline.
White Derek White feels out of place in the roster with his combination of skills
and contraction making valuable to teams. Should they be looking to go younger for
younger talent and picks, or consolidating players into a running mate for Murray and
Achiego's follow up question to that, I think it was an actual reply,
was is dejan Murray an All Star caliber player? I'm gonna let you take
the latter one first. Yeah, no, Muller, dejon Te Murray is
unquestionably an All Star caliber player. Whether he gets in. It's a little
tougher now that Andrew Wiggins has taken one of the spots in the Western Conference
and that conference ultimately is still pretty deep. But the RPR MVP predictor that
we use that NBA math does currently have Dejanta Murray not just earning a wildcard
spot, but actually one of the top two guard reserve spots. I think
that's partially because Devin Booker and Chris Paul are splitting so many of the big
time stats and Phoenix that both of their cases are falling a little bit by
the wayside. Because Luka don Chich's Mavericks fall short in the team's success category
to this point, so he's climbing a little bit. So I don't think
he's a favorite. He probably won't even make the team because of all those
more prominent names, and because with that kind of player, we tend to
see the All Star recognition come in year two, where year one establishes them
at that level. Year two is when the coach is actually validated. Murray
is one hundred percent an All Star caliber player. Let's make that perfectly clear,
regardless of whether that accolade is actually attached to his resume by the end
of the season. I don't think that changes. I don't expect him to
get in though. And now I'll let you talk about trades. I'm going
to add something to Murray. This is more of a hypothetical. If he
had a shooting season like Marcus Smart did in twenty nineteen twenty, where Marcus
Smart shot forty point one percent on two point five pull up three point attempts
per game, like eighty percent in the last second of the shot clock,
I don't care if he let's just say he shot Maybe this is if he
shot like thirty seven percent on two or thirty six percent on three off the
dribble three point attempts per game. Where does Gejante Murray rank as are we
talking about like a top twenty five, top twenty player at that point because
of everything else that he does. If that number is too high as in
like as in we're talking like top fifteen, wild to think about. But
obviously that's a fairly substantial skill to pick up for trades we did. You
can check out our YouTube clip. We talked about what the Spurs should do
and buy seller hold that is up. I think they should sell and they
should be looking to get they're not. They don't have a ton of extra
first round picks. If they have that extra first round or from Chicago,
and they are sort of the Derek White thing. I would keep Murray if
a consolidation trade presented itself, where like if you could get a Ben Simmons
without giving up de Jean Day Murray, I might consider it, But how
many picks are giving up in that situation. I'm firmly in the camp of
look at what you could get for if you get anything, not only for
Thaddy as Young, but even a Yaka Peartle, even though he's so cheap,
Is there anyone who wants to take a flyer on Lonnie Walker is going
to be restrictive free agent, And I think Derek White has sort of been
like the baseline for a lot of these questions. I'm not saying I one
hundred percent move him, but the contract here, Derek White seems to be
like a subtly divisive player, but him having three more years left on his
contract at sub twenty million a year, I think it averages out to like
seventeen. If there's like a situation where a contender will give you no damaging
salary and then like two first round picks or the equivalent in prospects, Like
if Atlanta or Phoenix was want to do something, I think I would move
him because I don't like him and Murray together long term, and I think
that White is better than having someone who you just stagger from your best player.
I don't think you're obligated to move you want to make that clear,
but I would absolutely be open to moving Derek White. And also just like
this doesn't have to factor in tw it, but like having Devin Vassel there,
do you like Josh Primo long term? Like there's a lot of like
non like, I'll call him swingman like there, Devin Vassell could definitely be
a wing What is Keldon Johnson like? He's like a swing man big.
It's just so so there are enough bodies in like that. That's certain.
That rotation, that part of the rotation where I think you could get away
with moving Derek White. And he's also on the older end for the timeline
that the Spurser are at, so he would absolutely be on the table for
me, and my asking price would be like salary that doesn't hurt me and
then two first round picks or the equivalent in prospects. My slightly unrelated follow
up is I couldn't help but think about how unfathomable it is that we are
recording this ten days out from the trade deadline, that this is a mail
bag episode, and that I'm pretty sure that that was the first time Ben
Simmons's name was mentioned, like if anything, if anything, indicates how much
that situation has spiraled beyond comprehension. There it is. I will say we
mentioned Ben Simon is quite a bit on the episodes from last week, but
yeah, that is that's not this episode, though, fair enough and kudos
to our listeners were not only asking about trades. We'll have trade content because
the deadline so close, but it was fun to like kind of take We
had some, but it was nice to take a little bit of a break
from that. That'll do it for us. Thank you all for your questions.
You can always submit them to us. You'll see the tweets out on
Twitter, dm me at Dana Valley Fava, l E. Adams on Twitter
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Yeah, before we turn it back to Dan for the shout out,
I just want to let everyone know, like, if you've made it this
far in the podcast, please consider looking at the expanded Sportsmaths Network. Me
and our technical director at NBA Math, Our June, have been working hard
to start launching the overall Sports Math Network website. It is still in progress.
It is eventually going to host a lot of the stuff that we currently
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have hockey stuff, it's going to have baseball stuff. It's going to have
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go to the NBA Math page. Go to the Sports Math Network page on
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be aware of when the actual website is going to launch, you'll want to
stay there for all the updates. We are targeting something right around the Super
Bowl, which is shockingly close, so it is right around the corner.
And with that, I'll turn it back to Dan. As always, the
I think it's it's the NBA Math Handler or the Sportsmath Handler. Both are
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That's the easiest way to follow and keep up with everything. Until next
time, though, we'll give you with the shout out to the one the
only, the legend would be unbeatable if he had four clones pus himself on
a basketball team, Frank Niokare