So look, I guess to start off with I am I'm going to tell
you a little quick story, and then I want you to all introduce yourselves,
because what we're here to talk about is this phenomenal, wild, wacky
event that I've never seen anything like in my life. Right, a twelve
yeah, twelve hour reading of Homer's The Iliad in Grace Cathedral. And I
have to tell you guys something. I came up to visit Sharon within the
first couple of weeks of moving to the United States. I've been here for
about ten ten months now, and when I came to visit Sharon. After
our visit, she dropped me off at the dock and then I kind of
caught the ferry across to San Francisco. And the first thing I do when
I go to any city is I try to look for the sacred locations like
cathedrals and these beautiful spaces that are meditative. And I had a dijury do
on my back. I had a heavy bag, and I was going to
catch a bus back down here to southern California. But I'm I'm in San
Francisco for a couple of hours, and so I thought, okay, I'm
going to try and find this cathedral. I look up cathedrals and I find
Grace Cathedral and I start at the dock all the way down the bottom of
San Francisco, and I went on a micro pilgrimage with all these heavy bags,
logging them all the way up this hill until I found Grace Cathedral and
I went in and I was just awe struck by this building. It was
such an incredible experience. And I said to myself, I have to play
my Digury Do here one day, And I tell you, I sat outside
in the courtyard and I played my Digury Do and I even have a recording
that I could show you guys. And then months later to see Sharon get
involved with you guys putting this together, and for her to invite me to
do this, it's just it's such an honor, it's such a privilege,
and I'm so grateful to be a part of this. And so, you
know, maybe maybe Catherine will start with you. I just want you to
introduce yourself, who are you, how are you involved in all of this
crazy event making, and then we'll go around and I'd love to know more
about each of you here. Sure Okay. I am Katherine Paul Vine ninety
two. Yuck yeah, retired professor from California State University in Sacramento, where
I taught both English and to mandate cheese. And then let me teach not
only create your writing, but oddly and crazily, because it was the sixties,
they let me teacher even though I had no business doing so because I
don't read Greek, I'm not a classicist. I'm a lover of poetry and
I I won't go into the long thing of how I created this, but
I did, and it has been phenomenally well received. It's considered, as
you said, kariwacky and demanding, challenging for the participants. But the great
thing about it is that the participants get a really big experience out of it,
even though they only read for forty five seconds or something forty five lines.
Excuse me. It is kind of an indelible experience. And I've had
people fall over the world say so to me. So we do have people
coming from many countries, we have several languages being spoken. Because of Joyce
and Bob, we have power part that keeps the story going even though someone's
reading in Latin or Flemish or Portuguese, okay. And I love capped children,
young people, people who think they don't like poetry, people who've never
read Homer, people who've never read poems for very much, and they think
they hate it until they do it, and then they love it. So
that's about all I need to say. I love it, Catherine. I
adore you already. We're going to be best friends. I can tell and
Joyce and Bob, would you like to jump in? Well, I'm Bob
Stanley and I've known Catherine for maybe ten or fifteen years. We helped her
publish her book of poems. She's a wonderful she's a wonderful writer, and
we've done readings together all over Sacramento. When we published her book, we
had we had about one hundred people in the backyard, all of her friends.
But I've only been to one of the Readers of Homer events. I
went to the one in uh in Sacramento, I think it was in two
thousand and nine or ten um. But I've heard about the ones in Athens
and Chios and Alexandria. Alexandria, Yeah, our friend Carmela Ruby, I
think was at the one in Alexandria or she used to tell us about that,
so we kind of knew about Catherine, and then we met her later
on, and we've just kind of been hanging out. And when Grace Cathedral
became available with Joyce and I just thought, what can we do my role
as musical director, I'm kind of the one who's setting up zooms and things
like that. And also literally, oh yeah, and I helped. I
helped Catherine edit the text because I've been twenty four hours if we didn't edit
it from seventeen thousand lines down to eight thousand, so kind of clipping and
snipping and figuring out Katherine did most of the work. I was just kind
of true. So Joyce, would you like to jump in? Yeah,
I'm I'm Joyce Shall, Bob's other half. Bob. We met Catherine,
which has been just a wonderful delight. Um. I'm all her talents and
her hobbies that she's done post retirement. She started, she said, We
found out she was offering a class in her home on the Iliad and then
later on another class on the Odyssey. Um, which I sort of just
wonderful high school teacher where I just thought Homer was the greatest and I thought,
wow, I haven't read that for fifty years. I'd love to jump
in and get a refresher course. So we spent how many weeks going to
Catherine's house reading this new translation of by Carolin Alexander of the Iliad and it
was just wonderful. Then we did the Odyssey with Emily Wilson's translation and that
was great, and then it kind of transition because of COVID into zoom classes,
and then we also did the Orstea. She's just a wealth of knowledge.
It's so much fun to learn and hear more from. So when this
came up, I thought it helped. Now that I'm retired, I'd be
happy to help. So I'm just helping Catherine in any way. I can
just go to organizing and planning things and it's great. Let me just say
crash in here and say that is a huge understatement the words that love and
Jersey has done. It's absolutely colossal. I could never done it. Yeah,
I love it. You guys are doing an amazing job. And Sharon,
do you want to jump in here? How you involved? I mean,
I know, but for those listening at home, what's your what's your
involvement here and of course with your husband Terry. I'm Sharon LaBelle and I'm
lucky enough to be longtime friends with Bob and Joyce. And I've always loved
Bob and Joyce because they have such um generative imaginations and they always have their
hands in something exciting. In the arts they they make, they make human
beings really look good. I every day that I might think of burning my
membership card and I just think of Bob Joyce. Yeah. So I've I've
had the privilege and just the fun of playing music with Bob. I've had
a really pivotal life changing even conversations with Joyce. Joyce, I don't think
knows what can impact some of the things she has said have had on me.
So they're my conduit to Catherine. And I love ancient texts, I
love poetry, and I love marathon extravagance. My connection to and anything that
has the qualifier wacky, I'm in so um um. My connection to Simon
is that we co found it The Walled Garden, which is an online international
philosophical society, and um I have I love working with Simon. Simon's also
he hasn't said this about himself, but he's a poet himself, so I
do know anyhow, that's a little scattershot, but I believe you're something of
a scholar in avoctargis advoctagious. Yes, well, I'm a popularizer. I'm
I'm the person the academics love to hate. Right. I immediately feel,
yea, this is perhaps a good segue then, because you know we talk
about popularizing. I didn't know until moments ago when Bob mentioned it that what
you've done is you're kind of trying to capture the essence of the Iliad and
have us read that. And because I'll admit, I googled last night,
I said, hang on, how long does it take to read the Iliad?
And Google said eleven hours and forty four minutes at the average reading speed,
And I thought, oh my gosh, it's gonna be tight. In
the ancient festivals, it took three days. And you know, three days
is just too long to demand of a contemporary audience. Even twelve or ten
hours is still asking a great deal of people, and a lot of people
cannot stay or choose not to stay. But you'd be surprised how many determined
to stay. Finally, and gain by doing so, because even though I'm
sworry it is edited down. It is not just the highlights of the Iliad.
I would not appreciate that. It's not just the highlights and a quick
summary. It is still the Iliad and it has to be, at least
in my view. I won't do it for less than seven hours, and
even that is too short. Ten is good now, that's what we're doing
at Grace, and ten is demanding and people that's the wacky part is that
people are surprised that they are interested for that long. If I may quote
a scholar who was on our board earlier, wonderful man Bill Mallin from Bard
College. Somebody asked him in New York, why is this moving? He
said, it's moving because it's long. You do not bring to it the
one hour attention span that you bring to a lecture, or the two hour
attention span that you bring to a movie, or the three hour attention span
that you bring you an opera. It's something entirely longer. And he said
that makes it a new challenge and refreshing in the way. And I think
he's right about that. I just love that. I love that. I
mean, let alone, the attention span of today, of a TikTok video
or of a you know, it's like the value to me. It seems
like this is the literary version to Sharon's point of a marathon. It's going
in there and at the end of the day, I imagine we're all going
to be pooped, We're all going to be just so tired. But what
a transformative space to be in, you know, what a transformative work to
be reading. Thank you, Simon. I often use the quote that in
the age of the quick and the easy, yeah for the long and the
difficult, and it has worked out that word. Yeah. So how does
something like this come together? I know that you've got is it the society
of Homer readers or what's what's the name of your group that you've got together?
There is no there is no name. Friends, poop want to help?
Is the name? Yeah? I love it? And so so what
came first was it did you find the venue and then decide we're going with
Homer? Did you choose the work? And then no? I always was
working directly from the Homer. I had taught it at the university. I
had a wonderful graduate seminar for about twenty years that I was called the Homeric
Imagination, which was kind of a reach and alienated some people just by that
title, But it really was more about what is what are these poems?
What are these epics? Why do we care? Rather than the infinite inquiry
into the specifics of who was Homer and how was the transmission and what language?
And how close to actual history? And is legend and history? Do
the mixer mingo to what degree? I let all that go and concentrated on
this is great art, and I believe that more every year. It is
fabulous art. And I can't in our format. I cannot lecture at all.
I don't even say a word. I don't say anything about it.
Then we're going to read the iliot. They know that. Excuse my voice.
So I do not lecture at all about it. The cares itself.
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't answer your question. I moved. When I
retired, A student said what are you gonna do now with this? And
I did not have an idea. A Greek lawyer from Sacramento happened to be
taking me out and complimenting what he had heard about the seminar. He said,
I have all my life, thought about how wonderful it would be to
have all my reading of the Iliad fire and go to or Lamb on the
stead and torches, and I knew it a second that I said to him,
I'm going to do it, and I started and that was my immediate
post retirement effort. Yeah. I just love this, and Sharon, I
really I'd love being to jump in as well if you have questions. But
sorry, Joyce, did you want to jump in? I was just going
to just clarify. So Catherine is the founder and the impetus behind the international
readers of Homer. Thank you, That's what I was thinking about. Yes,
yeah, where is a website that describes the readings and the locations they've
had all over the world? When Katherick can tell you, I do know
that there's been London, New York, Los Angeles, Athens, Tehran,
Cairo, several of the islands in Greek islands, Kios, they've had in
South America, in Montevideo. I mean really international. And she's got members
on our board who zoom in from Spain or Brazil. She's got people flying
in from Amsterdam and amazing magnetive Homer brings in people from everywhere that I just
can't believe. So that is really interesting. The other thing I want to
add the reading itself there. As we said, there's no lecture, but
as a special bonus to people who are interested in participating. Um, she's
going to do it one hour zoom to give people an overview, answer questions
for everybody who's registered, everybody who's going to be reading, and you'll you'll
get an invite to these zooms. Um wonderful she can hear and just answer
some questions. And so that is well, perhaps this is actually going to
be one of the questions that you might Yeah, but I'd love all of
your input on this actually, you know, because I know Sharon you'll have
a lot of insight into this. And and I think Katherine, you may
have answered some of this question in the in your previous response, but in
the age of the quick and easy, you know, in this current moment,
why is somebody like Homer, you know, Why why are people coming
around this, this this great writer in this day and age, you know,
and how is it relevant for this agent? As I said, I'd
love it. Uh. I think the ancientness of it matters. The fact
that it is the oral tradition and was carried by the people, So we
don't even know if there was a Homer. I'm not going to go into
that so called Homeric question as to who he was or if he was.
We do know that this is the result of what we call the oral tradition,
and participating in it gives you a great insight into how that worked,
how it carried across many generations prior to literacy. That's very important, prior
to literacy. So we do not know who first wrote down the Iliad?
Was Homer literate? Was there a Homer? Was he literate or maybe his
grandson could write because he was at that nexus of history in the eighth century
BC when literacy was just beginning slowly to happen. So it's the answer I
think to your very important question is that it is truly a communal experience.
It's very democratic. I insist upon that. It's so democratic that I don't
even care if people think they hate Homer. They don't know what it is,
and if they're just curious enough to play with the idea of getting an
idea of it. Great, and it does carry itself because it's a timeless
and I have to say alas universal story, meaning that war is continuous.
It just goes on and on and on. And Homer, whoever that was,
seems to think it's part of the human condition somehow. We don't know
exactly how. It just is always with us, and people suffer in the
same way. And the young boys who are drafted are just like the young
man and in the Iliad who don't want to die, but they want to
be brave, they want to be famous. They want to make their little
landscape at home proud of them. They want their parents to be proud of
them. They want a bit of glory, because what else is there.
But it's actually for a very dumb reason, as many wars are. It's
for background history to return Helen, the most beautiful woman in Greece quote quote
or famous idea, back to her cuckolded husband, King Menelaius of Sparta,
to historical character. And so whether Helen was real or not, she represented
the ideal of beauty that the Greeks committed to suing and to destroying Um,
this great city in Asia Minor, which was an actual city and which went
by the name then of Ilium. That's why the poem is called the Iliad
and not the Troyad. Troyad is a is a reference to the landscape.
Uh. The Ilium is the story of Troy, which means it's the story
of the defending city. It's not the story as much of the invading and
aggressive Greeks who who represent the poet. So it's um uh, it's really
as again a quote that I love that the Iliad is the most just and
partial of human inventions. That would be my answer to your question. It
is very just wow. You know, I was getting goosebumps as you're talking
about the fact that this story comes from a time preliteracy, and and then
you know, thinking about how back in Greece, like you said, they
would do these three day readings and performances of this great epic, And to
me, I'm still getting goosebumps because it's like, Wow, we get to
participate in that and this ancient tradition, and we're going to be in this
increase. I would encourage everybody listening to this episode to look up Grace Cathedral
and just see the space that will be reading it in right, and and
how powerful that's going to be. Sharon I wonder if you would jump in
here, because I'm sure that you have some insights to add there about the
relevance. Yeah, the relevance, Oh yes, well, so many people's
minds and hearts. Our burden these days by by a sense of fragmentation.
We've all had to very quickly step up to interacting with, integrating and responding
to so much information from the trivial to the vital in any given moment,
in any given day, whether it comes from media, whether we it is
like that movie title, everything all at once, I forget what everything happening
all at once, and it's it's too much for us to sort the worthy
from from even the delitarius. You know, it's it's many. Many people
to me report just casually that they feel a sense of um fog, of
dislocation. I've heard different terms used. So what does this have to do
with reading the iliot and doing it in a physical public space. I think
there's a hungry hunger, excuse me for that, which endures. I think
there's a fact in some ways, I'm just restating what Catherine said much better
than I can, But there there's there's a desire to be part of the
narrative through line of humanity and not on the sidelines, and so engaging with
something in this case, this timeless epic poem, even if you're skeptical about
it or hostile. Yeah, it's it's joining a conversation that's gone on for
a long time and that has dignity and it has weight. Beautiful A man,
Sharon, I do a Sharon. The answers like that, How and
and and Bob and Joyce? Did you have you anything that you'd like to
add here? You know, why is it relevant for you guys? And
why do you think it's important? I just want to talk about the art
and the richness of the poetry. I mean we're talking twenty eight hundred years
ago, and the Homeric similes that are that are throughout the book, that
many more in the Iliad than in the Odyssey, and they're so so I
found one here. I just kind of looked around and I just want to
read this. So Odysseus is in battle, and even during the battles,
there's these complicated similes. Sometimes they are similar to what's happening, and sometimes
they come out of the blue. But this one I found so Odysseus is
in battle and the Trojans are closing in on him. He's one of the
Greeks. He doesn't play a huge role in the book. Then they found
Odysseus, beloved by Zeus, and round about him the Trojans pressed like blood
stained and jack in the mountains about a stag the man has struck with an
arrow from his bowstream he escapes, the man fleeing with the swiftness of his
feet, while the blood flows warm and his knees are light that when at
last the sharp arrow has broken him, the jackals meters of raw mead there
in the mountains devour him. In the shadows of a glade, some god
leads a lion ravening, and the jackals scatter, and the lion it is
who devours it. So around skilled Odysseus of the many wiles, the Trojans
pressed in their multitude and strength, but the warrior, lunging with his spear,
warded off pitalless day and death. Very good. I mean, this
is three thousand years ago and there and there's all through the book, and
every time I come on one of those I just it's like I'm trembling.
Yes, yeah, they are strong beautiful, and they're often also, if
I may add, not violent, as that one is very violent. There's
a lot of violence in the Iliad and in the Odyssey for that matter,
but more in the Alia because his battle battle, battle, battle, killing
and Achilles is of course the premier example exemplar of a warrior culture. He's
the hero of killing, and that is to sort of beyond belief. Horrible
to us, but it's reality, and I might I wanted to say that
the similes Bob mentions are often totally tender, totally gentle, like a mother
putting a little comfortens on a fevered child's forehead. Where does that come from?
How does that relate? Well, he's a master, as somebody said,
of relief from horror as well as of horror. He is. You
get an awful of tenderness in both proms. M I just love that.
I'm so I'm so glad that you read that, Bob, I mean,
and what what what I love is that, Catherine, you must have read
this book so many times, but still as he's reading it, Oh,
you can't help but be moved, right, you can't help it. And
I just can't help but feel as well that um We're living in a time
when so many people want life to be safe and clean and pristine and everything
everything washed clean of the dirtiness of life. And you know, to to
to to actually to quote somebody who is just in the other room, a
colleague of mine, we were talking the other day, and um, he
makes this point of you know, sometimes, you know, we as men,
we need to realize that we are men, and that what we do
is we do build empires. We go out and take on the world,
you know. We we try to get every part of ourselves that we can
together so that we can be the hero that we could be in our lives.
And to be faced with this kind of literature that brings us face to
face with those harsh realities of blood and conquer and empire and all of this
stuff is dirty stuff of life. I think people are hungry for that as
well, to be yes, yeah, And the way in which Homer takes
on the power structures, that is the power of the king's Agamemnon's bravura and
pomp and circumstance, and his brother Menelius's weakness and stilliness and richness wealth wealth,
wealth is and then you get Achilles who is this violent man, but
essentially what he wants to do, play the loot and dress as a girl.
That's a but he is because he's in the battle of world. He's
going to excel, of course at what he is superbly good at, and
he speaks truth to power. Right in the beginning of the Iliad, the
very first few pages, he calls on Agramenton and calls him a dog faced
drunk who does nothing for his people, and it gets going from there.
So it is a it is an indictment of the folly of war, the
foolishness of the reasons for war, the flimsy, flimsy, puny little reasons
given out for having these teenage boys suffer and die the way they do,
and the women, of course being taken certainly as Troy will fall, and
we know that, and they know it. They will be mere prizes for
the conquering men, and they will be taken as concubines away from their loved
ones in their country and live as a service to these soldiers. And that
is very clear, just as it's very clear that Troy is doomed, even
though it does not fall in the within the pages of the poem, It's
kind of interesting that there are some very well known facets of the story that
are not in the poem. The abduction of Helen by the Trojan Prince,
which is the effective cause of the war, the Achilles heel that is supposed
to more or less protect Achilles, that's not in the Iliad, and the
fall of Fray is not with the wooden hers is not in the Iliad,
though they are referred to in the Odyssey, but just referred to, so
they're common knowledge, deeply known in the culture, passed on as great story
from many generations. Yeah. Wow, I'm more and more excited throughout this
conversation. For I just I'm so excited for this. I wanted to Sharon,
did you know this is your first time meeting Catherine as well? Right?
Yes, um, we well we met briefly within the Zoom space several
several weeks ago. I just wanted to you know, seeing as you're also
a representative of the world God and if you if you had any questions that
you would like to kind of give people more context about the event, And
then I think it would be good to tell people how they can get involved.
Right, Well, I think a lot of people do have the question,
and I would be very interested in what Catherine has to say to this.
What do they want to hear about all this Warfore, I get it,
it's real, but it's so ikey. Life is short. Why do
we want to immerse ourselves in the dark side of the human soul? That
is a superb question, and it's always asked and it's never never fully answered
John, because it can be, it cannot be. War is a given
to Homer, and I think it is unfortunately, or it seems to be.
Although I must say I'm very grateful to Monto Bideo for Clay saying that
our organization is a movement for peace and a movement against violence. And I
do feel that as a Homer, even though he's thought of as a war
poet, and that he writes as eloquently about peace and the virtues of civility
and order and comfort and love as he as he does about slitting throats and
so forth. But he's fearless. There, there's no question he is fearless.
That's the dirty side that Simon was referring to. And uh, there's
just no escaping the sense of tragedy in this work. It is tragic for
everybody, tragic for the women, tragic for the children, tragic for old
King Priam who's losing one boy after the other. And finally, the great
and noble, clearheaded, sweet Hector, who gets the last line. I
could cry just even saying so. Hector is simply a good person. He
is so true, and when he dies, we know that Troy is doomed,
along with all the people that I hinted there. So my answer to
your question is that it is not just warpome that that is a mistake.
It is a much bigger canvas of human endeavor and suffering and joy and uh
simple simple efforts, simple farming, simple planting, simple reaping, it making
mistakes, paying for them dearly, all of that is just a It really
is a big canvas of much more than just ugly battle. Hormer hates war.
I have no doubt about out it and those beautiful as symbolise Bob is
referring to show that there's violence even in peace. There is there's violence in
nature, but there is great tenderness in our experience of being alive also,
And that's all in the pom Believe me. Oh gosh, that's just lovely.
Sorry, oh I beg your pardon. Would you like to explain to
the listeners how they can attend this event, how they can get involved.
Absolutely. If you can go to the website International Readers at Homer, it
will pop up on the home page this Grace Cathedral event. It will describe
the program of the day and an easy clip on purchasing tickets. So if
you purchase the ticket, you are eligible to be a reader and we will
distribute a passage. It's about three or four minutes worth of reading in advance,
so that you can practice it. You can be a listener. We
will have food and snacks for the whole day. There's going to be wonderful
music interspersed throughout this reading, which Sharon Simon Terry and then from Greece.
We'll be working in these musicians that we have miraculously collected helping us interpret and
provide some background mood for there's a range of human condition that Catherine has described.
So it's a very full day that we're just excited about having as many
people joined, as many different voices come in. Purchase a ticket, we'll
get you a passage and we'll get everybody up on the stage to read,
you know, for their three minutes of glory, carrying the flame for a
tiny minute. Yes, for great art, so beautiful. You know,
this is going to be such a phenomenal event. Thank you so much to
all of you, Katherine and Bob and Joyce for putting in the work to
put something like this together. Like what a phenomenal effort and just such a
worthy thing to spend your money on, such a worthy thing to spend your
time on. And I am so excited to get up there and to meet
you all in person than you have this great event, So thank you and
Joyce. Did you have one more thing, one quick thing as a special
bonus, The translator Carolin Alexander coming to the event, and she's going to
be our opening reader, reading the first the invocation in Homeric read. We're
going to have an actual flavor of what homer experience as well. Simon,
may I just at one comment that is there. You cannot do it wrong.
You cannot read in a way that will embarrass you. Even if you
fumble, it's fine. It doesn't matter if you just pronounce. It doesn't
matter if you read weekly. It's only for three minutes, so it doesn't
matter too much. And I want to urge people who are afraid of public
speaking that it's quite doable and you can't mess it up very easily. There's
just it's just all good. Yeah. Yeah, Well amen to that,
and amen to everything that's been said today. This has just been such a
beautiful conversation. I want to thank thank you Catherine for your leadership in this
and for just the beautiful spirit that you bring to this. I can tell
that this is such a passion for you and and Joyce and Bob. It's
it's a pleasure. I'm so grateful for the work that you're putting into this.
And Sharon, I can't believe. Thank you so much for inviting me
to this. What a crazy thing to be this. This is going to
be incredible. So everybody who's listening to the podcast, if you're in the
area, if you know you're going to be around, or if you live
close by, or if you're not, get a ticket and we would love
to see you there and consider this have been wholeheartedly endorsed by Philosophical Society.
Joyce, sorry, I'm sorry, but we can't wait to hear your DIGERI
do y oh look, it's gonna be fun. But I can't wait to
hear what it sound. It's like in the you know, and it's just
the music in a cathedral like this. Yeah, it's an honor. It's
such an honor. And Sharon, thank you for bringing me in on this.
Yeah, of course. I also I want to make sure that everyone
knows too, because Simon is can be very humble. He's a professional jazz
pianist, trumpet player, and let me puse that hanger hang on. Piano,
I would say is definitely not my most proficient. And anybody who knows
my piano playing and they're also a jazz pianist, they're going to be saying,
hang on, what's going on here? But I appreciate the compliment.
Share, thank you so much. Okay, So Nathan San Francisco, that's
right, and trying to find children to read IF Saturday, and we're going
to have links in the episode here so the people can go directly there find
out more information. And once again, thank you all. I'm going to
stop the recording now, but I'm sure we will stay on for another couple
of minutes, but thank you guys, thanks for listening to this episode.
Of the Walled Garden Podcast. This show is the central podcast of the Walled
Garden Philosophical Society. To find out more about our events, services and community,
just go to the Waldgarden dot com. Until next time, we wish
you well as you nourish the gardens of your mind to sh