1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:48,119 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:54,679 I'm Bill Thomas, and today we are covering All That Remains by Patricia Cornwell, 11 00:00:55,079 --> 00:01:00,520 the fiction book about the Colonial Parkway murders case. That's not really about 12 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,239 the Colonial Parkway murders case, but it might be about the Colonial Parkway murders 13 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,920 case. Is that a bleak enough? I thought you were going to say 14 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:11,719 the allegedly fictional book All That Remains maybe we need to consult with our legal 15 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,400 department on some of this wording. What do you think we're in trouble already 16 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,760 and we just got started. I know, by the way, before we 17 00:01:18,799 --> 00:01:23,000 get started, you sound very chipper for a teacher who's back getting up at 18 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:29,840 o dark thirty and teaching again, how's it going? I'm tired, but 19 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,400 it's see any teacher how the first week of school goes, and they're going 20 00:01:33,439 --> 00:01:38,200 to tell you I'm tired. I'm tired all the time. Have you acclimated 21 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,120 to getting up at four thirty in the morning again, No, there is 22 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,879 no way to acclimate to that. I will remain tired all year. You 23 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,560 have my sympathy, you really do. Yes, I should. But seriously, 24 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:53,000 though, folks, it is really good to be back in the classroom 25 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,959 with children in the building, although it is a little scary. The first 26 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,840 time that I was in the room with thirty kids in the room going, 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,599 I have not been in this room. This crowd had pandemic started. Are 28 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:07,080 they wearing masks? All of them are wearing masks. They have been very 29 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,520 good about staying mask up. And are you wearing a mask? I'm wearing 30 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,360 a mask. There is a mask mandate in place. Yes, does your 31 00:02:15,439 --> 00:02:20,240 say teacher on it or silence or anything strict like that. Yeah, but 32 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,199 now that you said it, I should I think it's a silence one would 33 00:02:23,199 --> 00:02:28,120 be would be great, awfully strict. Don't you think we do have mind 34 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:32,199 over murder masks that you can get it to? True? I hadn't thought 35 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,560 about a mind over murder mask. I feel like maybe it's probably not a 36 00:02:37,599 --> 00:02:42,199 great idea for me to advertise my podcast in my classroom. Probably not a 37 00:02:42,199 --> 00:02:45,960 good idea. I might get one anyway, just because we didn't have to 38 00:02:46,039 --> 00:02:49,159 run that one past legal, we just knew. Yeah, we did it, 39 00:02:49,199 --> 00:02:52,039 We nailed it. I do have an oxygen mask that I've been wearing 40 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,240 that says oxygen that you brought me from crime cons. I've been wearing that 41 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,560 one. Those are pretty snazzy. By the way, before anybody starts sending 42 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,719 us OD mail, which we do appreciate, we love hearing from everybody. 43 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:07,759 We don't really have a legal department. We know some very good attorneys, 44 00:03:07,759 --> 00:03:10,400 but we try not to call them because they always want to bill us for 45 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:14,439 the time. Yeah, we can't really afford to have a legal department at 46 00:03:14,439 --> 00:03:17,000 this point. Let's not get in a legal trouble either. Yeah, that's 47 00:03:17,039 --> 00:03:20,719 not a great idea. And with all please do't sue me. I don't 48 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,520 have any money. With all of that in mind, I guess we should 49 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:29,400 get started. We should. For those of y'all that are familiar with the 50 00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:35,240 case, you are probably familiar with the fact that Patricia Cornwell, a Richmond 51 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,159 novelist. She no longer lives in Richmond now, but did at the time 52 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,319 wrote a book called All That Remains, and All the Remains was published in 53 00:03:44,439 --> 00:03:50,120 nineteen ninety two, which is a couple of years after the final murder in 54 00:03:50,159 --> 00:03:54,039 the Colonial Parkway Murder series, definitely at a time when the case was still 55 00:03:54,080 --> 00:04:00,280 in the media. All the Remains was the third novel in her extraordinarily popular 56 00:04:00,439 --> 00:04:03,560 Case Scarpetta series, which is still going to this day, and in fact, 57 00:04:03,919 --> 00:04:11,000 she is about to publish her twenty fifth Case Scarpetta novel in November. 58 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,520 I mentioned to you when we were preparing a little earlier that the expression cranking 59 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,680 them out comes to mind here. It does? It does is she's not 60 00:04:18,759 --> 00:04:24,040 as prolific as James Patterson or Stephen King for that matter, or Stephen King 61 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,800 for that matter, but twenty five novels in the Case Scarpetta series is pretty 62 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,480 awesome, and she has had assorted other books. Anyone familiar with Patricia Cornwell 63 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:38,839 will also know that she did do an investigation into Jack the Ripper. She 64 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,600 felt that she did determine the identity of Jack the Ripper. I don't think 65 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,279 there's agreement on either side of the Atlantic as to whether or not her candidate 66 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,360 is Jack the Ripper. But she got a book out of it. And 67 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:56,120 she's been putting out books for over thirty years, and as I mentioned to 68 00:04:56,199 --> 00:04:59,639 you, she has put out about a book a year or thirty years in 69 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,639 a row, which is something to be admired. She definitely works hard at 70 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,560 it and has had a significant amount of success as an author. She does 71 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,480 do a ton of research. I follow her on Facebook like I follow half 72 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,439 the world on Facebook, and she is always putting up pictures of going to 73 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:19,759 the FBI Academy, working at the Medical Examiner's office. She knows how to 74 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:24,439 fly helicopter, she knows how to scuba dive, she knows how to shoot 75 00:05:24,439 --> 00:05:28,759 guns. Anything that Case Scarpetta knows how to do. Patricia Cornwell learned how 76 00:05:28,759 --> 00:05:31,680 to do first for authenticity, so I will give her the fact that she 77 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:39,120 is extraordinarily well researched. I didn't know she flew helicopters, Yeah, she'd. 78 00:05:39,199 --> 00:05:42,519 In fact, her author picture for a while was her in the cockpit 79 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,879 of her own helicopter. Helicopters, by the way, are incredibly complicated and 80 00:05:46,079 --> 00:05:50,879 difficult to fly. I have two nephews, James and Ross, both of 81 00:05:50,879 --> 00:05:57,360 whom are Navy helicopter pilots. It is much more difficult to fly a helicopter 82 00:05:57,399 --> 00:06:01,120 than it is to fly a fixed wing aircraft. I've had a chance to 83 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:05,360 sit in some of their helicopters, but unfortunately, as a civilian, I'm 84 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:10,079 not allowed to go up in their helicopters while there. Okay, flying them 85 00:06:10,079 --> 00:06:14,720 around, it's a government aircraft and all that kind of good stuff. Kudos 86 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,879 to Patricia Cornwall for learning how to fly a helicopter. It's not easy, 87 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:24,639 as I understand it. Yeah, I can't imagine that it would be one 88 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:30,360 of the things that Cornwall did do to prepare for her work as an author 89 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,680 of a massively best selling series, which she did. Work for the Richmond 90 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:40,839 Medical Examiner's Office, and she worked under doctor Marcella Pierro, who I believe 91 00:06:40,879 --> 00:06:45,800 you know, mister Thomas. Yes, And she worked at the Medical Examiner's 92 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:50,079 Office from nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety two. She held shoe positions. 93 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:56,279 She was a technical writer, and she was a computer analyst, and Telli 94 00:06:56,319 --> 00:07:01,560 Fierro was Patricia Cornwall's boss. As we understand it, Yes, doctor Pierrero 95 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:08,800 is the real life inspiration for the k Scarpetta character, hence the similar beautiful 96 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:13,160 Italian sounding last name. Yeah, that's my understanding of it. In addition 97 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,759 to working at the Medical Examiner's Office, she did volunteer with Richmond PD going 98 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,879 along on ride alongs, so again more with that research. She really dug 99 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,480 in there to learn all the different aspects of law enforcement. And her first 100 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,720 novel, which was called post Mortem and won like every major mystery writing award 101 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:38,600 that it could win, was actually based on another series of Virginia serial killings, 102 00:07:38,959 --> 00:07:43,759 the south Side Strangler murders, which were committed in Richmond during nineteen eighty 103 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,399 seven. And we'll go ahead and plug for our good friend Richard Foster. 104 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,720 If you are interested in the south Side Strangler murders, do listen to his 105 00:07:51,839 --> 00:07:58,879 podcast, Southern Nightmare it will give you nightmares. He's wonderful and he has 106 00:07:58,879 --> 00:08:03,279 a very good book by the same name. All that Remains is, like 107 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,879 we were saying at the top of the pod, she's never come out and 108 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,800 said, this is about the Colonial Parkway murders. But it's pretty clear once 109 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:16,879 you read it that it is heavily based on the Colonial Parkway murder Is that 110 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,560 an accurate assessment? Bill? Have? I said that correctly? And that 111 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:24,240 was my primary takeaway when I read the book. I think I've mentioned that 112 00:08:24,639 --> 00:08:30,399 it had come up a number of times in conversation. This is some years 113 00:08:30,399 --> 00:08:35,080 back now that All that Remains was based on the Colonial Parkway murders. I 114 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,639 wasn't really certain about that until I finally, after just rolling my eyes for 115 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,120 several years, went out and bought a used copy of the book for seventy 116 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:50,320 five cents online plus shipping, and read the book. My single greatest takeaway 117 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:54,000 is that this isn't based on the Colonial Parkway murders. This is the Colonial 118 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,639 Parkway murders, particularly, and I know you want to get into some detail 119 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,200 here, particularly the Phelps Flower incident, which is incident number four in the 120 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:11,200 Colonial Parkway murders. The descriptions and details are incredibly close. And because we 121 00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:18,000 have had people ask us fairly recently on our social media pages, are you 122 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:22,080 guys going to talk about all that Remains? We figured, yeah, we'll 123 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:26,559 talk about all that Remains. We'll do that. This is certainly a discussion 124 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,039 that is lengthy enough that it will very likely take two episodes. We would 125 00:09:31,159 --> 00:09:33,200 encourage you if you have not read the book, get read the book. 126 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:37,480 You could do it in between this first episode and the second one following it, 127 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,559 or you can just take our word for it. But I would recommend 128 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,720 reading the book and weighing in with us on social media about your thoughts on 129 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:50,840 All That Remains. We're not here, by the way, to shill and 130 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:56,559 push sales of this book. I would make a note that every public library 131 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,919 in America probably has a copy of All That Remains. Oh yeah, go 132 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,879 to your public library, borrow the book, take it out. We're not 133 00:10:05,039 --> 00:10:11,159 pushing to increase Patricia Cornwell's sales of this or any other book. I thought 134 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,320 it was well worth the seventy five cents I paid for it. But you 135 00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:16,320 don't even have to buy a used copy of the book. You could just 136 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,000 borrow it from your local public library. I'm sure they actually do have a 137 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,600 pretty massive Patricia Cornwell section. Mine certainly does. Yeah, they're very popular, 138 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,039 right, I get it, and they're interesting and fun to read, 139 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,240 But you don't have to go out and buy thirty copies of every single one 140 00:10:31,279 --> 00:10:35,840 of her novels. She's also not paying us to promote her books. That's 141 00:10:35,879 --> 00:10:39,799 not what we're trying to do. But as an English teacher, I think 142 00:10:39,799 --> 00:10:43,559 it's important that everyone does their research. So if you are interested in what 143 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,600 we have to say during this episode or next, go check it out from 144 00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:50,159 the local library. Is Thomas suggested, I'm lucky enough to live two doors 145 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:56,360 down from an incredible library here in our small town, and I love seeing 146 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,879 my friends over at the library, and I know they like seeing us one 147 00:11:00,039 --> 00:11:03,679 her in and they even let Oliver the docsind in there. All he's not 148 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:07,080 much of a reader, but he is a well known personality around town. 149 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:13,559 We'll go ahead and jump into all that remains and what we'll do to open 150 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:16,879 the discussion. We'll just go chapter by chapter, give a little brief summary 151 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,480 of what precisely goes on in that chapter, and then we will unpack the 152 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:28,000 similarities and the differences between the Colonial Parkway murders and the murders that she dubs 153 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:35,039 the couple's killings in the novel ready Bill. Yes, one other thing. 154 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,200 I was tempted to ring a bell every time we found a similarity between real 155 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:43,200 life and this allegedly fictional book. But I think that might be a little 156 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:50,000 bit too much. But I was thinking about having ding another coincidence, maybe 157 00:11:50,039 --> 00:11:54,720 a little too on the nose. Okay, So the novel actually opens getting 158 00:11:54,759 --> 00:12:00,320 into the action with doctor case Scarpetta, the chief medical Examiner of YA, 159 00:12:00,759 --> 00:12:05,080 learning about the disappearance of two nineteen year olds, Deborah Harvey and Fred Cheney 160 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:11,399 over Labor Day weekend, Ding, there's our first, there's our first comparison. 161 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,840 She learns that an abandoned car has been found at the New County rust 162 00:12:16,879 --> 00:12:22,440 stop on I sixty four, and she rushes out there to view it while 163 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:31,799 it is in situ. Ding. It is established as she is rushing out 164 00:12:31,879 --> 00:12:37,240 to this potential crime scene that there have been four other murders of couples prior 165 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,679 to this missing couple. So it's established right away there is a serial killer 166 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,879 he or she, but mainly is abducting couples and this is the fifth set 167 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:52,720 of victims, so she does change things a little bit, a little hello. 168 00:12:52,960 --> 00:13:00,120 We learn from Scarpetta that the victims in this case are pretty similar to 169 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:03,720 our victims in real life, Anna, Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lauer. 170 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,759 The victims in this fictional case are a young man and a young woman traveling 171 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:13,240 together from a Whitchmond in real life Amelia County toward a beach town called spin 172 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,120 Drift in real life Virginia Beach. Is there a real place called Spindrift, 173 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,080 Virginia? Honestly, I'm not sure. We'll have to check that out. 174 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,720 Yeah, the ages are incorrect. Anna, Maria and Daniel were eighteen and 175 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:33,720 twenty one, respectively at the time of their disappearance, but the characters Deborah 176 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,639 Harvey and Fred Cheney are nineteen. Also. For the purposes of the novel, 177 00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:45,000 Deborah Harvey is made the daughter of a prominent politician. This is an 178 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:50,120 actual political role known as it's known colloquially as the drugs are. And so 179 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:56,000 she's made the daughter of Pat Harvey, who is a presidential appointee overseeing like 180 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,240 the drug enforcement agencies the drugs are essentially, and we know of course that 181 00:14:01,399 --> 00:14:03,720 is not true. Oh, one quick thing, I just did some quick 182 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,600 research in real time. Spindrift is not a town in Virginia, but it 183 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:15,600 is a location in Virginia Beach. It's a road, a Spindrift Road in 184 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:20,120 Virginia Beach, which is off Long Creek. This one bit of research that 185 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,759 I was not able to do for myself at that point. I'm glad you 186 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:28,720 were able to fill in the gap there. Internet search seriously, right. 187 00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:33,159 We know that in real life we have discussed this a number of times that 188 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,360 Anna Maria and Daniel were not a couple. Anna Maria was dating Clintlouer, 189 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,080 Daniel was just going to live with them to help with expenses and rent and 190 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,240 so on and so forth. So in real life, we do not have 191 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:50,080 two people who are a couple. They just happen to be traveling together at 192 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:54,840 the same point with the same destination in mind. In the book, Deborah 193 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:01,000 Harvey and Fred Cheney are an actual couple. Now Here is the point where 194 00:15:01,559 --> 00:15:07,440 I think we can both reasonably understand why the Phelps family and the Lower family 195 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,120 reacted rather strongly to the book when the book came out. Is that a 196 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:16,320 fair assessment? It is, as I understand it from talking to the Phelps 197 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:22,200 and Lower families over the years. The description of the Deborah Harvey and Fred 198 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:31,519 Cheney crime scene bears remarkable, maybe even uncanny, resemblance to the Phelps Lower 199 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,639 crime scene at the New can rest stop. The location of the car is 200 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:43,960 the same on the acceleration lane. The description of the rest stop is dead 201 00:15:43,039 --> 00:15:48,360 on accurate, including the split lanes where you go to the front of the 202 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,440 building or the back of the building. The things that were not accurate are 203 00:15:52,679 --> 00:15:56,480 the make and model of the car. She gives Deborah Harvey a Jeep, 204 00:15:56,559 --> 00:16:00,879 whereas we know Daniel had a Chevy Nova, and the content of the car 205 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,360 are of course different. We know Daniel was moving down to Virginia Beach, 206 00:16:04,519 --> 00:16:08,720 so he had his worldly possessions with him, whereas fictional couple was carrying things 207 00:16:08,759 --> 00:16:14,159 that you would expect for a beach weekend, so cooler luggage, slalom ski. 208 00:16:14,879 --> 00:16:19,879 Also not mentioned in the book is that roach clip that was found on 209 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,960 the driver's side window of Daniel's car when it was located at the rest stop. 210 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:32,759 Let's not move past something too quickly, though the car is also found 211 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,159 in the book in on the eastbound side of the rest stop. So this 212 00:16:37,159 --> 00:16:42,720 whole thing we've discussed before, with Anna, Maria and Daniel's car being found 213 00:16:42,759 --> 00:16:48,200 traveling in the wrong direction, that whole transference from one rest stop to the 214 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:52,159 other rest stop on the other side of the highway seems to be key as 215 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,559 well in the book, Yes, very much. Now, the one question 216 00:16:56,759 --> 00:17:00,360 that I did have that I cannot answer, but I know that you can 217 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,200 with regard to this crime scene. In the book, a dog team from 218 00:17:04,279 --> 00:17:08,880 Peninsula Search and Rescue are called in to scent the car and see if they 219 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:14,920 can find Deborah and Fred. Do we know if Peninsula Search and Rescue was 220 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,039 ever called in to the Phelps Flower crime scene. I can't say with one 221 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:23,880 hundred percent assuredness that they scented the car, but I know that an extensive 222 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:30,920 search was conducted by Virginia State Police and agencies like Peninsula Search and Rescue, 223 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,839 so I think it's a qualified yes. I also know that they did flyovers 224 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,319 with Virginia State Police planes. Unfortunately, as we've discussed, the leaves were 225 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:48,880 still fully leafed out in that Labor day to October timeframe, so the flyovers 226 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:55,000 themselves were not successful, but a fair amount of searching was done and agencies 227 00:17:55,079 --> 00:17:59,519 like Peninsula Search and Rescue were used. Here we are when we're recording this, 228 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,960 it's for Labor Day weekend, so we're actually approaching the anniversary for Anna 229 00:18:04,039 --> 00:18:08,559 Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower's disappearance. And I can definitely tell you that there 230 00:18:08,599 --> 00:18:11,960 are full leaves on the trees. There is no color to be seen, 231 00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:15,960 like it's still looking and feeling like summer out here. And so that wraps 232 00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:21,359 up the first chapter of the book. And already you can see that there 233 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:29,599 are a number of similarities between this fictionalized crime scene and the actual real life 234 00:18:29,599 --> 00:18:33,400 crime scene in which Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lower's car was found at the 235 00:18:33,799 --> 00:18:38,839 New Kent County rest stop. Bill, any color commentary you'd like to add 236 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,279 at this point, or shall we move forward? No, just that when 237 00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:48,000 I read the book some years ago now, this was my first takeaway was 238 00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:52,079 just wow, this detail is so close. And of course I knew a 239 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,039 fair amount about the Phelpslower crime scene and had seen the crime scene photos which 240 00:18:56,079 --> 00:19:03,039 have been leaked by the FBI. Similarities are very striking between what is supposed 241 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:06,799 to be a work of fiction and what we know is the real life scenario 242 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,759 for the Colonial Parkway murders, and it was very interesting to me as I 243 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:17,519 read that. As we get into chapter two, where case Scarpetta does discuss 244 00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:21,839 in exposition about the other cases in this series, it was very interesting to 245 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,880 me that she went to great lengths to make the other cases in the series 246 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:32,039 nothing like their real life counterparts, and yet that first crime scene is so 247 00:19:32,079 --> 00:19:34,400 close to real life. That's what really jumped out to me and for me 248 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:41,400 as well. So in chapter two we do get that moniker the couple killings. 249 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:42,920 Bill, I think I remember you telling me once, but boy, 250 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:47,480 I can't remember it now for the life of me. At what point did 251 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:52,359 the name Colonial Parkway murders start coming into use? Would it have been during 252 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,880 this time period late nineties? Maybe? Oh, certainly, absolutely, Okay, 253 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:02,960 just curious. Our research shows the Colonial Parkway Murders as an expression comes 254 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:08,400 out of media coverage, but certainly by the very late eighties early nineties, 255 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:17,000 local media, television, radio newspapers are referring to the four double homicides as 256 00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:21,680 the Colonial Parkway murders, even though, as we have explained, only two 257 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:26,160 of the cases actually have a direct relationship to the Colonial Parkway. Nonetheless, 258 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,359 that was what the media had dubbed the Colonial Parkway murders. You're listening to 259 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,400 mind Over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 260 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:47,480 We're back here at mind Over Murder. So in this Cornwell dubs at the 261 00:20:47,599 --> 00:20:52,240 couple chillings, and it does list a discrepancy of ten victims instead of eight 262 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,680 victims, and later on in the novel we learned that there are another two 263 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,880 victims to add to that, so the number is actually much higher. She 264 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,640 takes this chapter to really discuss all of the other cases in this series, 265 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:14,519 and those only have the barest passing commonalities to the real cases. Cornwell offers 266 00:21:14,559 --> 00:21:18,839 a summary of the other cases in her Couple's Killings, and as I mentioned, 267 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,799 they only have passing commonalities with their real life counterparts. If we are 268 00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:27,720 to assume that she is drawing those comparisons to the Colonel Parkway murders. She 269 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,640 lists characters who have disappeared. Bruce Phillips and Judy Roberts, who are high 270 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,240 school sweethearts who disappeared on June first in Gloucester and never arrived at their homes. 271 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,680 Bruce's Camaro was found off seventeen with keys in the ignition doors, unlocked, 272 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,440 windows rolled down, and their bodies found in the York River State Park 273 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,839 ten weeks later. There is no real resemblance to any of the real cases 274 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,119 in that description. I'm going to push back lightly here. Okay, I 275 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,000 actually see a lot of parallels. But what I believe your cornwall has done 276 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,880 is mixed up the details. All right, He's in the ignissition doors, 277 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:10,640 unlocked, windows rolled down, even the ten week time frame. Okay, 278 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,160 this is a little bit of a mixmaster thing going on here, with a 279 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,799 little bit of each of the real life Colonial Parkway murders details, but then 280 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,480 swapped case to case. I think you'll get more of what I'm talking about 281 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:26,319 in a minute. I see what you mean. Yeah, exactly. I 282 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,279 was being a little too literal, I think with my analysis, But you're 283 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,440 right. But she lists the second couple to have disappeared as Jim Freeman and 284 00:22:33,519 --> 00:22:38,200 Bonnie Smith, who disappeared the final Saturday in July after a pool party and 285 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:44,519 Providence Forage. Jim's blazer was found ten miles from Providence Forage, and their 286 00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:48,200 bodies were found in West Point four months later. Third couple is listed as 287 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:55,240 Ben Anderson and Carolyn Bennett driving back to ODU from Stingray Point on the Chesapeake 288 00:22:55,279 --> 00:23:00,720 Bay in March of the following year, his pickup truck Dodge Pickup found abandoned 289 00:23:00,799 --> 00:23:04,039 on Interstate sixty four, five miles east of Buckrow Beach, with keys in 290 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:08,960 the ignition, doors unlocked, and Carolyn's pocketbook under the seat. Their bodies 291 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,720 were discovered six months later in York County off of Root one ninety nine. 292 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:18,640 And then, finally the last of the cases that she invents Susan Wilcox and 293 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,200 Mike Martin, who disappeared on the way to Virginia Beach for spring break, 294 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,279 which I found a little odd because she lists them as having disappeared in February, 295 00:23:26,319 --> 00:23:29,759 and we definitely don't have spring break in February for high school or college. 296 00:23:29,839 --> 00:23:33,759 Yeah, Mike's blue van was found on the Colonial Parkway. This is 297 00:23:33,799 --> 00:23:37,440 the only mention of the Colonial Parkway thus far. A white handkerchief signaling engine 298 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,440 trouble that did not exist was attached to the antenna, and their bodies were 299 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,839 found on May fifteenth by turkey hunters in a wooded area of James City County 300 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:51,240 between Roote sixty and Interstate sixty four, and I think you looked it up 301 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:53,480 and that isn't the right timeframe for turkey hunting. Am I right? It 302 00:23:53,599 --> 00:23:59,680 is not the right time for turkey hunting. So there are some similarities, 303 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,720 as you did point out rightfully. I think I was definitely in the wrong 304 00:24:02,759 --> 00:24:06,759 on this one, that there are similarities between the fictional cases and they're real 305 00:24:06,799 --> 00:24:11,920 counterparts. There are victims from Gloucester Keith call. There are victims leaving a 306 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,519 party who never arrived at their destination again Keith and Sandy. There are victims 307 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:18,960 going to Virginia Beach, victims whose cars were found on the Colonial Parkway, 308 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:23,359 and victims whose bodies were found by turkey hunters. But the bulk of those 309 00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:29,960 cases that she lays out seemed to be fairly well obfuscated and separate from their 310 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:33,440 actual real life counterparts. Later in the novel, it is revealed that there 311 00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:37,920 was a first set of victims, and it is revealed that that first set 312 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:44,240 of victims was a lesbian couple named Jill Harrington and Elizabeth Mott, and those 313 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:49,759 characters do very closely resemble Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Doowski. I think at this 314 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:55,039 point, we're way past coincidence. Here. Some of the details are shifted 315 00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:57,759 around, but as you pointed out a moment ago, there's a lot of 316 00:24:57,759 --> 00:25:02,839 similarities. And and for me personally reading the book, when I got to 317 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,880 the place where the lesbian couple showed up, I said, wait a minute, 318 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,400 this is clearly the Colonial Parkway murders. Heres are things also got a 319 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,680 little bit mixed up for me when I first read the book. When I 320 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,839 first read Patricia Cornwell's All That Remains, I was probably too young to be 321 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,680 reading it. I was like, and it was actually my first exposure to 322 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,240 the case outside of some news reporting. Keep in mind, at eleven, 323 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:30,319 I was not like regularly consuming the newspaper. And when the first case actually 324 00:25:30,319 --> 00:25:34,400 happened, when your sister's case actually happened, I was too young to have 325 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,839 a real understanding of what was actually happening. I won't even say how old 326 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:47,440 I actually was, just a time child. So Patricia Cornwell's book All That 327 00:25:47,559 --> 00:25:53,240 Remains was really my first in depth introduction to the concept of the Colonial Parkway 328 00:25:53,319 --> 00:25:59,519 murders, and so it was confusing to me when I first started doing real 329 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:03,759 research on the case. When I realized, wait, somebody, somebody had 330 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:07,720 said in the book. I so very clearly thought that the book hued really 331 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,440 closely to the facts of the case, and I thought that what she had 332 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,480 written about was going to be similar to what was reported. So it was 333 00:26:15,519 --> 00:26:19,039 confusing for me, my poor little adult, eleven year old brain, who 334 00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:23,079 should not have been reading books this mature like at all, and the actual 335 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,519 facts the case were. See what happens when you end up reading books that 336 00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:32,720 are too sophisticated for young minds. You end up being the host of a 337 00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:38,799 true crime podcast and discussing horrible things. I fully blame Patricia Cornwell, John 338 00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:42,920 Douglas, and Mark Olshaker for this. I was reading John Douglas and Mark 339 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,799 ole Shaker's books way sooner than I should have as well. You want to 340 00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:51,319 talk messing up a fourteen year old, there you go. Let this be 341 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,799 a warning to all of us as parents. This is where they go bad. 342 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,119 Now. In all seriousness, we love John, we love Mark, 343 00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:03,519 they are wonderful people, and we love their work, but probably should not 344 00:27:03,559 --> 00:27:07,759 have been reading it at fourteen. That's just me sheltered an impressionable youth. 345 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:11,960 Shouldn't have been reading about serial killers that young exactly ended up with a dark 346 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,799 and twisted mind. It's sad how that happens, isn't it. Welle question 347 00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:25,119 I think that I came away from after reading this chapter is how someone who 348 00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:30,039 I find it very striking that the other couples that she lists are so dissimilar 349 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:36,240 to the rest of the Colonial Parkway murders cases, but the Harvey Chainey scene 350 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,640 is so similar to the actual facts of the Phelps lurcase. There was a 351 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,119 real disconnect there for me. For someone who went to such great lengths to 352 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,519 fictionalize the other double homicides in this series, she hued really close to real 353 00:27:49,559 --> 00:27:53,240 life in the case that's the central focus of the book. I had a 354 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,319 little bit of cognitive dissonance there as I'm sitting here writing my notes and processing 355 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,960 all of this, that it's just a matter of mixing up some of the 356 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:07,000 details in some of the other murders, which are a bit secondary, respectfully, 357 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,440 but in terms of the storytelling that she's chosen, she goes into much 358 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:17,359 more depth on the last of the murder series, which is the one that's 359 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,880 so close to Phelpslower It's hard not to think that I wonder could she have 360 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,799 had access to the phelpslower files. Could she have made a field trip to 361 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,480 these locations. We're guilty of field trips, dude, just saying yes, 362 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:38,039 but we're not presenting work as fiction that feels like it's a non fictional account 363 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:44,640 of a real life case. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it's 364 00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:51,720 hard not to wonder if an author who had access to the computers that was 365 00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:56,279 one of her jobs at the medical Examiner's office, and to be a technical 366 00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:03,119 writer, which may have involved writing up the descriptions of these cases or having 367 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,359 access to the description of these cases, it's hard not to think that the 368 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:15,359 reason this is so strikingly similar is that it's so strikingly similar you can't really 369 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:21,200 get around it. And we do see more really striking similarities in further chapters 370 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,920 of the novel. Certainly it seems like the Phelps and laur families looked at 371 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,720 the novel and felt the same way that you did. This is really strikingly 372 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:36,319 similar. Agreed. So in the third chapter of the book you get more 373 00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:38,920 of the procedural aspect of the thing. Remember, case Scarpetta is a medical 374 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:44,440 examiner, and so she does do her part in trying to help solve the 375 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,440 case, so she has various meetings with her detective sidekick Pete Marino, and 376 00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:53,200 her friend Benton Wesley, who is a profiler with the FBI, who she 377 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,160 goes on to marry several books later. She also meets with a Washington Post 378 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:03,759 reporter who happens to have had a sister who was murdered by the character that 379 00:30:03,039 --> 00:30:07,759 was based on Timothy Spencer, the Richmond's South Sides tracking player. In chapter 380 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,880 three, she goes into a little bit more detail about the couple's killings, 381 00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:18,440 and she does give it a much shorter time frame than they had in real 382 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,640 life. The difference between two and a half and three years, I'm not 383 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,839 sure I agree. She does state that they've been going on for two and 384 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:26,880 a half years, although, as she pointed out Bill, there are times 385 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:32,480 when I forget that the timeline is a lot shorter than I think that it 386 00:30:32,559 --> 00:30:34,319 is. I tend to think four years. I think we all do that, 387 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,480 and I've done it too. Because the cases took place in eighty six, 388 00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:41,920 eighty seven, eighty eight, and eighty nine, we have a tendency 389 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,000 to say four years, four years when you look at a calendar. However, 390 00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:51,200 the first murder in the Colonial Parkway Murders, Kathy and Becky is October 391 00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:56,079 nineteen eighty six. This final murder that we attribute to this series we call 392 00:30:56,119 --> 00:31:00,319 the Colonial Parkway Murders is Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer in September nineteen eighty 393 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:07,160 nine. That's barely three years. I know we often say four Yeah, 394 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,000 my math outle brain is the one that says because we say eighty seven, 395 00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,160 eighty eight, eighty nine, but it's actually a three year period. So 396 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,359 I am an English teacher and not a math teacher. And this is also 397 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,960 one of the reasons why people have brought up various ideas regarding the Colonial Parkway 398 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:29,160 murders. For instance, three years can line up with military tours, and 399 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,920 we know there's a tremendous amount of military in the Peninsula area. And this 400 00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:37,799 is also within a typical four year span for a college student. So for 401 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,000 example, a William and Mary student or Christopher Newport University or any of the 402 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:47,039 other schools and universities in the area. Typically you'd be there for four years 403 00:31:47,079 --> 00:31:51,279 if you were attending a four year undergraduate program. Now, she uses this 404 00:31:51,359 --> 00:31:56,680 chapter to lay out via her detective and profiler friends. Some of the common 405 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,559 theories. The common theories are who done it? These are definitely some of 406 00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:05,880 the theories that we have talked about here on the podcast. And there are 407 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,640 also some that are a bit more off the wall that we have not really 408 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,839 given a ton of consideration too. So Pete Marino, the Richmond detective, 409 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:19,200 does bring up this theory of an anger excitation offender. He says it still 410 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,079 strikes me as the work of some squirrel out there who fixes on couples a 411 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:27,440 jealousy type thing because he's a loser, can't have a relationship and hates other 412 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,160 people who can. In fact, it was our resident profiler. I shouldn't 413 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,799 say he's our profiler, but feel a little proprietary interest in Jim Clementi. 414 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,559 Jim has mentioned that concept before, has he not? He has? And 415 00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:45,720 then continue beton Wesley the FBI profilers theory, which is also something that Jim 416 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,440 Clementi, our real life FBI profiler, has mentioned. Yes, the killer 417 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,480 cop theory, it could be someone posing as a cop. Certainly that would 418 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:57,839 account for the couples pulling over and perhaps getting into someone else's car for a 419 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,160 routine license check or whatever. Anyone can walk into a uniform store and buy 420 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,319 a bubble light, a gun, a badge, you name it. In 421 00:33:05,359 --> 00:33:12,559 the Lover's Lane series, Jim clement A demonstrated how an organized, somewhat aggressive 422 00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:17,960 offender posing as law enforcement with law enforcement training or without could approach a couple 423 00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:23,640 and control them and separate them, much in the way that we saw in 424 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:30,079 the real life Colonial Parkway murders. So it's interesting that Cornwall is talking about 425 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:34,799 these two theories, both of which have come up with our real life profilers 426 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,920 as well. Now, she does bring up a third theory, one of 427 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:43,039 which I know many people, particularly especially locals, because they find it interesting, 428 00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:45,799 though I find it a little hard to take it all that seriously, 429 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:52,519 and that is the Camp Perry theory. For anyone who is not aware, 430 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,559 so that would be anyone who's not local, there is a government installation. 431 00:33:55,839 --> 00:34:01,440 It's a secret government installation. I'm using airs around secrets because anyone who's local 432 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:07,680 knows that it's here called Camp Perry, and Camp Perry is the CIA's main 433 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,519 training base. Hopefully the CIA is not going to repel off my roof from 434 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:17,280 black helicopters for me saying that probably not. I don't know. If you 435 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:22,880 hear a thud, that might be what's going on, may have black ops 436 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,920 on my roof tell us it is a theory, and it's an interesting theory. 437 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:32,559 But she does bring up the idea that maybe the killer is a rogue 438 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:40,239 CIA agent practicing killing people who's been stationed at Camp Perry. And while that 439 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,320 may seem I rollingly, oh please, there are a number of people who 440 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,280 I have talked to locally about the case who are like, I think it 441 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,599 was a rogue Camp Perry agent, And I am pretty sure that would not 442 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,079 even be on anyone's radar if it were not. For all that remains, 443 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:01,760 oh, I think actually Cornwall is responsible for this theory taking hold. There's 444 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:07,199 a variation on this theory too, which is that in the nineteen eighties, 445 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,840 the CIA was training a lot of agents from around the world and may still 446 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,639 do, for all we know. The idea that some of these agents might 447 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,880 have left Camp Perry and wanted to try out some of their techniques on an 448 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:32,760 unsuspecting public could extend to international people who would maybe feel less of an obligation 449 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,840 to respect the laws of the United States and go out and go rogue. 450 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:44,599 At least that's the three A and three B theory. Yeah, and so 451 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,400 B meaning, oh, now we've got people from South America who are being 452 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:54,400 trained, think contras and others by the United States government in exchange for a 453 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,639 book, I'm sure, and that these people would then go out and go 454 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:05,239 rowe. It's really important to note that there has never been any evidence that 455 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,400 we are aware of. Keeping in mind that we don't know everything, and 456 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,639 the FBI certainly doesn't tell us it's business. There has never been any evidence 457 00:36:12,679 --> 00:36:16,440 that we're aware of that anyone from Camp Perry might be involved in these cases. 458 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,360 That is true. The cases on the Parkway itself are the only two 459 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,360 that are even remotely close to Camp Perry. And if you want to actually 460 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:31,199 get really technical about it, the closest military installation to where Kathy and case 461 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:37,800 Cars were found is the Navy's Cheatham Annex. Camp Perry isn't closer. The 462 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:43,400 annex is the annex actually Cheatam Annex, which is a very large, fenced 463 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:50,039 in facility immediately adjoins the one area where we think it's quite possible that Kathy 464 00:36:50,119 --> 00:36:53,480 and Becky went to, which is the Ringfield Plantation, And as I understand 465 00:36:53,480 --> 00:37:00,119 it directly from the FBI back then confirmed in later conversations they actually searched inside 466 00:37:00,119 --> 00:37:06,440 and outside the Cheatham Annex perimeter fence, just on the possibility that a knife 467 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,079 that might have been used or other weapons in Kathey and Becky's murder could have 468 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:16,760 been tossed over the fence into the woods surrounding the naval facility. There are 469 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,920 military installations all over ye this area, and they are immediately a Jason and 470 00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:29,039 I'm talking about yards away from several of these crime scenes. We do get 471 00:37:29,079 --> 00:37:35,239 some additional information about the cases. Scarpetta asserts that all the bodies in all 472 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,119 the cases have been found in the woods, decomposed. We know that in 473 00:37:38,159 --> 00:37:42,960 real life that is not true. It is only true of the Phelps and 474 00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:46,119 lower case, Robin and David were found in the water, Kathy and Becky 475 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:50,920 were found in Kathy's car, and as we know, Keith and Sandy have 476 00:37:51,079 --> 00:37:54,679 never been recovered. I think she tried to streamline her maybe neaten up the 477 00:37:55,000 --> 00:38:00,519 fictional series of killings. Scarpetta, as the medical examiner, also states that 478 00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:04,639 she has been unable to determine a cause of death in any of the cases. 479 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,760 Again, we know that is not necessarily true in real life. There 480 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,960 was a cause of death that was able to be determined for Kathy and Becky 481 00:38:13,079 --> 00:38:15,880 and for Robin and David. As always, Keith and Sandy are the wild 482 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,239 card because we have never located them. But it is true that Anna Maria 483 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:25,079 and Daniel's bodies were too decomposed for a cause of death. There was a 484 00:38:25,159 --> 00:38:30,519 knife slice found on Anna Maria's hand, so ultimately it was ruled that she 485 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:35,599 was very likely stabbed to death. But there was no cause of death listed 486 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,639 for Daniel Lauer other than homicide because his body was too badly skeletonized for there 487 00:38:40,639 --> 00:38:44,800 to be any determination of what could have happened to him. This leads us, 488 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,760 though, to another one of those coincidences, which is the examination of 489 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:55,039 the knife wounds. Yeah, it was always very interesting to me that the 490 00:38:55,159 --> 00:39:00,079 Smithsonian Institute. This is again news for anybody who may not be aware of 491 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:04,159 it or may not have watched the TV show Bones, The Smithsonian Institute actually 492 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,519 has a whole section where you can send human remains or animal remains any type 493 00:39:09,519 --> 00:39:15,559 that is unknown for examination, and so Anna Maria and Daniel were actually sent 494 00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:21,960 to the Smithsonian Institute to have someone take a look at the knife slice that 495 00:39:22,079 --> 00:39:27,280 was found on Anna Maria's index finger, her left index finger. That is 496 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,719 another interesting touch that happened in real life, but then also does appear in 497 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,239 the book. In fact, there is a whole chapter in which case Scarpetta 498 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,800 packs up the bodies of Deborah Harvey and Fred Cheney and takes them with her 499 00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:45,679 to Washington, DC so that she can visit the Smithsonian Institute and get some 500 00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:51,119 clarity on what may have caused the nick mark on the bone on Deborah's hand. 501 00:39:51,119 --> 00:39:54,760 I almost called her Anna Maria, and this is precisely the request that 502 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:01,159 the real life doctor Marcella Fierro made of the Smithsonian. The remains were skeletal 503 00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:05,840 at this point, and so there was a bit of clothing, the skulls 504 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,360 and skeletons left on the forest floor under the blanket. As we've discussed, 505 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:15,320 those things were packed up and brought to the Smithsonian. So the book once 506 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:21,400 again strongly parallel the real life experience of the Colonial Parkway murders. We're going 507 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:28,079 to continue our at close analysis and dissection. Pun definitely not intended until I 508 00:40:28,119 --> 00:40:31,599 said it, and now it is intended of all that remains by Patricia Cornwell. 509 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:37,000 And we're going to continue that comparison between the book and the actual case 510 00:40:37,079 --> 00:40:40,079 itself in our next episode, and I don't know, maybe the episode after 511 00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:44,039 that, what do you think, Bill, We'll let it play out. 512 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,480 Thank you so much for listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll 513 00:40:46,480 --> 00:41:01,400 see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 514 00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:07,400 Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our 515 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:13,360 logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 516 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,199 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow 517 00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,400 us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page 518 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:27,800 on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill 519 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,400 Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind 520 00:41:32,639 --> 00:42:09,679 Over Murder.