This podcast episode is brought to you by Coors Light. These days, everything is go, go go. It's NonStop hustle all the time. Work, friends, family expect you to be on twenty four seven. Well, sometimes you just need to reach for a Core's light because it's made to chill. Coors Light is cold loggered, cold filtered, and cold package. It's as crisp and refreshing as the Colorado Rockies. It is literally made to chill. Coors Light is the one I choose when I need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, reach for the beer that's made to chill. Get Coors Light and the new look delivered straight to your door with drizzly or INSTATCRT Celebrate Responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Hey, there we have Blue Ire. Just wanted to take a second to thank you for listening to this podcast. We know everything outside is pretty scary and uncertain, but we're committed to helping you get through your day by talking about the sports and teams that you love most. If you're looking for more great podcasts to distract you, check out blue Fire pods dot com. Thanks for listening, enjoy the podcast and let stay safe. What's krack alackin hardware Knox podcast listeners, I am Damp Valley coming at you without my co host Andy Bailey. I am Howard pleased once again to be joined by Adam Frammel. He is again the founder and editor in chief of NBA Math at MBA Underscore Math. They sponsored this podcast. Follow him on Twitter at Framil zero nine. We're continuing on with our historical rankings of the top ten players for each NBA team over the past decade. Before we get started, I want to shout out our sponsor, as always, bet online dot Ag. You'll be hearing from them in just a little bit. Be sure to use the promo code that helps the pod and subscribe rate review to us on iTunes as well. We're gonna keep this short, though we're getting shorter in the intros. I'm proud of us or me, Adam, How are you doing, I'm doing great. I'm curious when bet online dot ag is going to start taking bets on where we have guys ranks for some of the franchises that come up later in the alphabet. Yeah, you know, we really need to figure this out, but online that you need to put these props on your website. Where are where the composite ranking is going to be for the top ten players to each NBA team all time? I would bet on that just because I have inside information, but maybe some other people would bet on that that too. We are going to, per Adam's astute suggestion, change it up a little bit. We're going to give you the composite rankings this time, which will be my top ten, Adam's top ten, and then the fan vote combined into that average, and then we'll go through our individual order as we go through that. But we didn't want to be so repetitive as to, you know, going through the same players who are just all over the place. I also think this will be way easier to follow because it was for me when when Adam broke it down. And we'll get to some honorable men at the end, because there are some hysterical names there somewhere on the list higher than you think that they should be. Spoiler alert, Greg Stizma. Moving on, though, Adam direct us here where who's the number ten player on the Celtics this past decade? In the composite ranking the number ten player of the last decade? This has sort of been a weird decade for the Celtics, and I think we're really seeing that here number twent how'd you put it to me before we recorded it was they've gone through like eight different errors this decade, right right, So like we're looking at twenty ten eleven through the present day, which means we're looking at the Paul Pierce Kevin Garnett teams that were competitive, the Paul Pierce Kevin Garnett teams that were less competitive, the absolutely atrocious twenty five win team in twenty thirteen fourteen where Brandon Bass led them in win shares, then the rebuild until Isaiah Thomas was leading them, and then Kyrie Irving's brief tenure, and now the Kemba Walker Jason Tatum group. Like it's it's been such a weird last ten years for this historical franchise that it's hard to come up with that many players who have spent a lot of time in Celtic Green, which is why Kyrie Irving is number ten here, even though he has played a grand total of one hundred twenty seven games for the Celtics and did not leave on the best of terms. He was number nine for me in my personal rankings, he was number nine for the fans, and shout out to the fans big time here if they had three times as many responses for the Celtics as we got for the Hawks. So thank you for everyone's participation there. Way to drag the Hawks manoof. Look, I didn't have Kyrie on my list, and all I'm gonna say there is I could understand him being on this list, particularly where he is. It's not like he's in fourth. I'm not voting for someone who just gave up in that final playoff series in twenty nineteen. It's just not happening for me. And that whole whatever happened behind the scenes, I know he was dealing with some stuff. He talked about it once he signed with the Nets, about the death of his grandpa last year impacting him. And I'm all, you know, looking after your mental health and the way we cover it needs to change, and that's not an aspect of it for me. But he just wasn't. He did not help that team when you look at it from an emotional perspective as as a leader, and then just the way he played in the talent of that postseason run for them. I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. I recognize, Uh yeah, yeah, I totally get it. I couldn't do it. I totally get why you couldn't do it. And it's such a weird tenure, you know, like he was so good during these regular seasons. He didn't he was injured during the first postseason, he like you said, he gave up in the second. But still, like over those two regular seasons he averaged twenty four four and a half and six and almost slashed fifty forty ninety. Like he was just an offensive machine in Boston and it didn't mean anything. They didn't win anything when they did it wasn't because of him with that kie year Jason Tatum playoff run, but like the talent was was just was there. You know, it's I think it's during that really hard. I think during that span regular season, that's the only time in his career, over multiple seasons, that he's been I would say a near consensus top ten player too. Yeah. Yeah, And would you be surprised high or low if I told you that that Kyrie is twenty fourth in games played for the Celtics during the last decade. That would be just like whatever for me, just they've run through so many different versions, we spent two years with them. I feel like could be in the top twenty five. Yeah, but it's like just seeing that, I was like, okay, like I was, I was pretty opposed to having anyone in my top ten that only spent two seasons there and didn't even play in the playoffs on one of them. But like, he's still twenty fourth in games played, Like I feel like he meets the volume prerecord sit there if they didn't have what I thought, and we'll get to them obviously better alternatives looking at longevity and contributions in the playoffs. He depth, you know, he might be I didn't go through this, but he might be number eleven. For me, it's it's either him. It's either him or Jared Salinger. Clearly so well, and at your ten spot, you actually had a guy who who was played one fewer game during the regular season, so he's actually twenty fifth on that game's played leaderboard. He I didn't even realize he would be that low. I should probably just place him from the top twenty five though. But Jay Crowder, first of all, sorry, I thought you had Ray Allen at number ten. Oh, I do I have Ray Allen excuse me, you're right, You're correct. That makes a ton more sense. He didn't leave Boston on the best terms, but just as a shooting like hating everyone else who was there. Look, I could see not liking ray Jon Rondo, So I'm I'm team Ray Allen there because Kevin Garnett's involved, that gets a little bit weird. But I think I think Allen kind of recognized that the two thousand and eight Celtics have milked that championship too long, and I could see, and he also made sacrifices that the other three didn't really have to towards the end, and I mean even throughout his tenure there in general. But in his two seasons that qualified for this sixty one point two true shooting shout almost forty five percent from three. He's another player. This doesn't have anything to do with my ranking, but his prime just one of those stars that I feel like we're on deraided where I feel like we don't remember how good Vince Carter's prime was. Maybe Ray Allen's in that bucket as well. Michael Read just so good, but the dependability that he gave you from beyond the arc and the things he was doing at a time when I wouldn't say it was an anomaly, but it wasn't as commonplace as it was now to have someone like him who feasted so much from three and so I and maybe I'm still getting a little there's their fields factor because he was on the title team, sure, and he's also on the teams, you know, the Celtics, even as they got older, they just had some like interesting a couple times. Anyway, they had those interesting playoff series with the Miami Heat, and so perhaps that I'm sort of falling in love with that a little bit. But just his shooting and what he could do overall, right, ray Allen, the ten spot for me did not factor in his departure at all, because, like he said, he basically despised the entire franchise. It seemed like I thought about having Ray Allen in my ten spot and I really struggled with like the dichotomy and his two playoff performances during this decade, because one of them was fantastic and the other was not. So. During the twenty eleven playoffs, he averaged nineteen points a game. He shot fifty two point three percent from the field, fifty seven point one percent on threes, and ninety six percent on free throws, like he just he could not miss anything. But then the next year averaged ten point seven points and slashed thirty nine five thirty four or thirty point four and seventy one one, and that was ultimately over two times as many games, which is why I kind of knocked him back to my eleventh spot. Yeah, and I mean if you look at that the Heat series that year, specifically in twenty twelve, that was the Eastern Crawford's Finals, I believe right where they took them to seven, that would be an argument against having him on this list, But that was the That was the series where we saw Lebron come out of the tunnel like totally focused and it was like the scary Lebron that we hadn't seen before, right right, I think wait was that that year? I think it was two. He was after the twenty eleven lost. There was a switch that flip, so I would see I would probably argue that that would have been the year then because it's immediately right after that. Not a Miami Heat podcast though, but so you could use that you know, he didn't. He played a ton of minutes during that se series, and he didn't really leave like an offensive dent. He shot a ton of threes, and there's value in that for the for the offense, and he you know, he played fairly well in that game seven, so I could see knocking him off for that. But but again, I'm this probably says more about my opinion of Kyrie's time, or at least the end of his time in Boston, than it does about Ray Allen. And again, like I think that's totally fair, Like we're really this is one of those franchises where were we only have ten players because we had to have ten players by our own rules, not that there are like really ten deserving all decade cabinets. Right March Sadness is rolling on and on and on Hardwin Knox listeners. With currently no NBA, NHL, or MLB, you might think there's nothing to bet on. Well you'd be wrong. Our exclusive partner bet online still has hundreds of sports events and games to wager on. 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And for me, like his inclusion really boils down to a concept we talked about during the Hawks podcast, the vereness idea. You know, he's the he's the decades leader in games played by almost twenty games, and you know he had this reputation as a three and D guy, even though I feel like both components of the three in DNAs were a little bit exaggerated, and he was He was like the source of controversy about like how much on verse off numbers really mattered for defense, because you watched him and he seemed like this lockdown guy, but the numbers didn't always support that. You know, just one of those like analytics first, I test poster boys for a large part of this decade. So for me, it was it was mostly about the vareness that got him in there in the first place. I'm pretty much with everything you just said, and so there are those were the two aspects of his game that are probably always overrated. Was never the most efficient offensive player, and you wouldn't necessarily want him doing all this stuff with the ball in his hands. There's still that value. He shot thirty six point six percent from three during this band. That's certainly going to help. The longevity has to help him too, for sure, had him a little bit higher. As you said, he was the leader in games played. And then there's you know, I know, the on court numbers get a little iffy, and he's probably just not the best team defender, and that can happen to a lot of smaller guys who are tasked with these incredibly hard assignments, and I think that's where the value of him, right And so if you just you could put him on the ball and the on off splits are gonna they might suck on some occasions, but if you can know that you have that guy where you can spare someone else from having to go up against the you know, if the point guards the best player on the team, or whether it's it's the two. I also think, you know, if he's a little bit bigger, he's probably a more impactful defender with just during this time, with the way he played really sort of had just had a good knows for the ball from what I remember, and so he was an easy inclusion for me. Was I was a little bit surprised though I was worried off putting him too low based on the longevity, but the fact that he checked in at number nine and the composite rank, it was actually a little bit surprising to me. Yeah, I think one of the biggest questions I have with Avery Bradley is I'm just a little bit confused that he never developed into a better ball handler. It always felt like he struggled to maintain possession of the ball whenever he was trying to do stuff. He never developed into any sort of consistent facilitator, even though he spent time at both the one and two. And I think that was the most one of the most disappointing parts of his time in Boston for me was that it felt like as he developed into this key rotation piece through like mostly at the end of that Paul Pierce era, it seemed like he could do more and just didn't. Yeah, for sure, I do. He's one of the players and maybe Evan Turner falls in this category a little bit. You kind of like wonder what happens to him if he never leaves the Celtics, Like that's when we really saw his offensive efficiency start to plummet when he was on the pistons. Is one of those on off split problems became more pronounced. And so he's just another guy where it's like, well, if he stays at Boston, what is his what is his career or this this part of his career look like And that might be something exter He'd be way higher if he never leaves Boston. Think about how much time he would have spent the entire decade there, which just doesn't. I don't think there's gonna be anyone on this list that that qualifies, like from twenty ten through twenty twenty. It's just there's gonna be no one there. So he is one of those players that makes the same thing with Evan Turner, like if he never leaves Boston, what does he becoming in this this this segment of his career. Yeah, so you bring up Evan Turner, Who's another really interesting one for me. I didn't really give him much consideration for one of my top ten spots, but yeah, I think that given his role on those teams and how you know, the coaching staff was was able to figure out more how to deploy his facilitating skills and his mid range shot as he spent more time there. Like, Yeah, he's definitely one of those guys where I think he would have benefited from being there for the entire decade. Who we got at number eight at number eight, we have Jaylen Brown, who I had at number eight, the fans had at number eight, and you did not have because I think you might have gotten confused between Jaylen Brown and Jay Crowder since their names start the same, dude, jay Crowder. Well, I didn't even mention I had him at number nine where everyone else had Amy Bradley said Bradley at number eight. Jay Crowder just, first of all, it's funny that like we don't really see guys. I mean, we'll see these older stars who signed these supermaxes, finished their five year deals, whether they'll be on different teams, many of them were all most of them whatever. But Jay Crowder, that deal that he signed, which seems like forever a go, like it's finally coming off the books. It was a five million per season, right, yeah, it was basically it was. It was a little bit more than next I think he's making it. That's what he kind of Dallas, I think, yeah, so just just a bargain. But the things he could do defense of lead for them. That was also he's always been, especially now he might be one of the most overrated offensive players in the league, but he wasn't into like this heat check nonsense. With the Celtics that he's We've seen definitely more of it in Utah and then we saw it a little bit in Memphis. Doesn't have a huge sample size with the heat, but he was shooting the lights out from three. Just having him just a bigger defender who could go up probably two through four positions, shoot around, Lee g average from three, hit a good clip on his his two pointers, just super solid. And I think for the time span that we're looking at where he was was it three seasons he was with Boston during this, he was the guy that sort of just typified like three in D specialists, not three in D star, but three in D specialists for me, right, it's it's kind of how it like I felt about Demari Carroll with the Hawks, like he was he was important to those good teams that they had, and you know, in the interest of full disclosure here, like I had Jay Crowder in my ten spot when I originally submitted my rankings and then dropped him down to essentially twelve behind Ray Allen and Avery Bradley and Kyrie Irving, Like he's definitely important, but for me, like Jaylen Brown reached a level that that Crowder did not, which is why I had him had him there, And unfortunately, you know, like this season has been shortened, we don't know if it's ever going to continue, but he was averaging twenty point four points, six point four rebounds, two point two assists, he was shooting the ball efficiently, he was figuring things out again on defense, and it was that peak level of performance that when we're working with so many players who don't have anything but these abbreviated ten years, I valued that a lot here was like he was. He Jaylen Brown was really good, and I'm not sure that that descriptor, ever, was something that Jay Crowder totally qualified for, even if he was valuable because of his all around abilities. I'll be straight up, I probably need to bump Ray Allen for Jaylen Brown just because of his consistency on the defensive end. He really has serious range on defense. He's he's someone who defend basically four positions, and so I don't know that he's for me. I'm not sure if he's ever made strides on the offensive end. Definitely his efficiency, but a lot of it feels like just a matter of more opportunity without having the responsibility of a playmaker. And maybe I'm penalizing him a little bit too much for that, but I'm just recognizing, just knowing how you know, Allen played in that final playoff run, I probably need the bump Ray Allen for Jaylen Brown because he's really good and fun. Fact on Jake crowder By the way, that was a five year, thirty five million dollar deal we were talking about. That contract has seen five teams since he signed it, Boston, Utah, Cleveland, Memphis, and now Miami. That's shocking to me. It's was one of those contracts where, look, he wasn't always good, and I think he might at this point, or at least until he was traded Miami, be one of the most overrated offensive players in the NBA. But it's such a good contract where you don't really look at it as a throwing and it's like, oh, maybe he can help us, but if it doesn't work out, we can just move him because he's he's an asset in that trade. I'm so interested to see what he ends up signing for in free agency when it when it takes place, probably in like November or whatever. At this rate, Yeah, and I guess I totally get why he would be overrated on offense. I mean, the guy's name is literally Jay, like he should be good at shooting. And there's your dad joke of the podcast. I think Davy might have chuckled that it dad or he's for outing at he right, Well, he's napping right now, so hopefully neither. He probably just woke up because he heard the dad jokes. Who do we have at number seven? At number seven, we have our reigning champion for the Hawks, and that is Al Horford, who was number one for Atlanta and is now number seven for Boston. He was number seven for you, he was number seven for the fans, and he was number five for me. Yeah, he's I actually wish I put him at least one spot higher there were on those Kyrie teams for Boston. I think you can argue that he was the Celtics best player both those seasons. Just overall, they're most valuable, whatever you want to want to call it. And Tatum and Brown received a lot of credit for the twenty eighteen playoff push, and they definitely deserved it. But Al Horford was like, if you needed lineups to anchor the offense when Kyrie Irving was off the floor earlier on in Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown's development and even again even through all of last year, like he was the constant there, like that's how you got by. And then we talked about this with the on the Hawks podcast, just so good defensively, one of the best transition defending bigs that I've ever seen. And then, as you've mentioned, just super switchable in the half court, which you don't really see from someone his size. Just the way that he can move during his time in Boston, again not so much this season in Philly when he's going after closeouts. Like I mentioned in in transition as well. So I feel like the player that I put above him, I did it just out of respect for the likest he has with the team. But if I were more, if I were braver, I would have put him at five or six where you put him. Yeah, it's it's interesting that the only all defensive team that Horford has made in his entire career was twenty seventeen eighteen with the Celtics. Yeah. I think the only real negative from his time with Boston, aside from them not always going super deep into the playoffs, was just that he only spent three seasons there. I don't have many negative things to say about anything he did on the court. He took a step back offensively from what he did in Atlanta, deferring more touches, but I think it was it was this three year stint in Boston where the basketball watching world really seemed to appreciate just how good this guy was. You know that he was one of those players who doesn't need to score twenty points per game to be an all Star caliber player. That he's gonna make a huge impact with his distributing skills from the elbows, with his mid range shot, with his new ability to stretch the court out from the three point arc, the transition defense, the switchability, just the fact that he could do anything and everything. He even found his strug from the free throw line in Boston, which is something that he struggled with at times in Atlanta. It's it's he was a tough one to rank, just because the negative is a big deal. That he only spent two hundred eight games during the regular seasons in Boston, But he was so good during that time that I wanted to give him a little more credit. He maybe a best way to sort of contextualize his career, jack of all trades, master of some that might be the best way to look at Al Horford, And so I would say routinely during that time. So this during the time he spent with the Celtics, those three seasons. This is not a perfect catchall ranking. Was just what I could bring up really quickly while you were talking. Twenty second in the league during that three year span, and value over put replacement player so vorp, just that steady twenty presents and fans seem to get like incensed whenever he'd be in the top twenty or top twenty five or even top fifteen of player rankings. But he was in that territory and he would never maybe have the counting stats and we blah bla blah blah about Tristan Thompson and all that, and the defensive rebounding that people take issue with, but he was just so valuable even if you're just not look if you're trying to just look at numbers, just his value to a team I would say during this span, not even just on the Celtics, but I would easily say top twenty to fifteen in the league. Just value overall value. Yeah. I just have one enduring question, and that's is he a power forward or a center? Oh God, anyone who listened to the Hawks podcast knows that this is not a question that we want to answer. Who is number six? At number six, we have ray Jon Rondo. Who you had at number six? Who I had a number seven? I'm sorry, reluctantly, I might had reluctantly. So, yeah, you had him at six, I had him at seven, and the fans had him at number five. And I think it's fitting that I had him the lowest of all of us, because for all of the decade, pretty much I have been accused on Twitter of not liking Rajon Rondo's game and underselling how good he is. And I'll own that, like, I don't like Rajon Rondo's game, and I do try to undersell him. Yeah, It's what really just made it tough for me to put him any lower. Is you know, for two years in this span, three years in this span, actually he avers over eleven sis per game like that that matters, and in those early seasons the offense was actually better with him on the court. I think what happened with his game is that it aged poorly, not because of you know, he dealt with injuries, only played thirty games in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, but the way the game changed, he was just never adapted to it. As well, he shot better from three on wide open catch and shoot opportunities in recent years. I think there was a place for his game at one point. It was a little bit before this decade, but at the very beginning it was still sort of at that all Star esque threshold. And I feel like I really have to recognize that. Yeah, and I hope that I still am just by having him in my seventh spot in general, because there's no doubt that he is one of the better passers that we've seen in a long time. But you know, I think that it's easy to assume that he's one of the leaders in games played during this decade because he spent so much time in Boston, but four of those seasons came before are cutoff. And interestingly, like this, this really surprised me when I saw it. But if you look at the games played leaderboard, at number ten, we have Jason Tatum at two eighteen and at number eleven, we have Rondo at two at two eleven, So he actually, because of all the injuries, he actually spent less time on the court in terms of games played that he has actually ahead in minutes than Jason Tatum did. Even though Tatum feels like this new fresh player in Boston and Rondo feels like this guy who's who had always been there. So that was one of the reasons I dropped him down. The other is just that I felt like he so many times. I feel like I've seen him make the wrong play because he's chasing those assists. You know how many times did we see him turn down an open lay up or a semi contested layup to make a kickout pass so that he could get one more dime in there. And between that and the obvious shooting weaknesses, Like I just I never felt that he was as good as people wanted him to be, And had he not played in such a massive market with a very passionate fan base, I don't think that perception of him would have ever risen as high. I'm totally with you. I would love to see it's not publicly available. I would love to see the tracking data for how long he had the ball in his hands, like during his heyday, because I think that's a lot of There's no questioning his IQ and what he could see with his vision, but I feel like how he sort of I wouldn't say he was someone who pounded the ball into the gun, but just extended possessions perhaps unnecessarily because he wasn't aggressive enough looking for his own shop. When you have that much control of the ball, I almost feel like maybe it's a little bit easier than to pick up those assist numbers, just you're you're taking so much time and maybe not making the quick, quickest decisions, and he when he did when he was shooting, he was just inefficient. Of every single player that attempted a thousand shots during the four and a half seasons that he spent with the Celtics during this decade, he has the eleventh worst true shooting percentage during that span, and just for context, Ricky Rubio is tied with him right there, and so we all it's just that's that's something that you can't shake regardless. But as I said before, I would love to see the tracking data for for touch time and average dribbles per possession for him during not even just this decade that he spent with the Celtics, but before so when the Celtics were a contender with him, he did have some sick fake behind the back passes. Though Yeah, looks he's savvy and the trickery is is he's a great passer. Yeah, like we can't sell that short. But he was only number he was only number or six, and the compositor rankings and you had at number seven, who do we have at number five? At number five? We have Jayson Tatum, who you had at number five, who I had at number six, and who the fans had at number four, all of which I think are pretty fair because it's beyond clear that this is a superstar in the making, if he's not already made, based on what we're seeing this season, like the rise that we saw are are seeing hopefully throughout this twenty nineteen twenty season has just been unbelievable. It's like everything has clicked for him, and I think we honestly might be selling him a little short in terms of his current level because his offense has gotten so much attention that I think it's flying a little below the radar. How good he's been on defense too, Yeah, And that's so that's one of the things for me, obviously, that rookie year, the postseason, not having Gordon Hayward or Carrie Irving and pushing the cat as two Game seven in the Eastern Conference Finals, dunking all all over Labron in that Game seven, that helps anecdotally, but then I wouldn't say he takes a step back last year, but there was definitely like some stagnancy, And I don't know that that was him so much as it was just a crowded pecking order. When you looked at guys who like to operate with the ball in their hands, Gordon Hayward coming back from injury, you have Kyrie Irving, Terry Rosie or Marcus Morris all approaching free agency. The ditto with Al Horford, even though he's not as big of an issue, and then you have Jelen Brown. It just seemed like it was too crowded. And now we fast forward to this season when he's given more responsibility and it's just working. He's shooting an absurd percentage on these unassisted threes, has turned into one of the most reliable players on those shots in the league. And then, as you mentioned about the defense during this decade, correct me if I'm wrong. Did the Celtics ever have a player who you could say was an All NBA caliber on both sides of the ball. And I don't think that you can be. Al Horford came pretty close, yeah, be so limited scoring, So if I were to make an All Defense team right now, I'd have Tatum definitely on the second team. I have to go through it more than just mentally to see if i'd have him on the first. But he's definitely making third team on BA this year. That's just happening overall. And then to make an All Defense team as well, which I think he should, that's big for me. It's not the best individual season that we've seen from a Celtic during this decade. That belongs, I would argue to someone that we'll talk about in a little bit, but it's probably in the top three. Definitely in the top five, oh for sure, I think without question. I mean, so if we were to redraft the entire Eastern Conference right now, Janasana Kombo is obviously going to be the number one pick, but you can make a serious case for Tatum at number two, regardless of whether you're talking about building a franchise moving forward or just for this current season. Like even though I've been told he's still nineteen years old, right but but right now, like I think he already has a legitimate case to be called the second best player in the East. And maybe you want to give that to Pascal Siakam or Chris Middleton or someone else, but like he's the least in that conversation already. Yeah, there's look, there's cases to be made for Joel and bad too, But I would say I'm a huge Pascal Siakham fan. I think you can definitely argue that where that seems like it was a debate and during this season, I don't actually really think it's a debate anymore. Like I think he's clearly above there, and so I would say he's one of them if you want to go with Joel and Bead in the East, and then I'm not counting Kyrie Irving or Kevin Durant in this, I would say Jason Tamam is probably no worse than the third best player in the East. Right now, there will be some people saying, well, what about Bradley Beale and YadA, YadA, YadA, But Jason Tatum this season has been absolutely ridiculous, and you look at his age and the trajectory he appears to be on and what he can do defensively, just particularly as as a helper. I've been really impressed with what he's done this season. I don't know how you put him lower than third on that totem pole, and I'd probably have him second just because of availability. And you look at with Joel and question mark number four, though, who do we have We don't have anyone because we have two players tied at number three. So I would rather talk about Kevin Garnett first of these two players who are tied. So let's do that. So we have Kevin Garnett tied at third in the composite. He was number four on your rankings. He was number four on my rankings, which is why I chose him now, and he was number three on the fans rankings. Yeah, it's so one thing I did when I was looking back at the seasons that these players had in the decade, I was actually surprised at how like statistically sound Kevin Garnett was during the three years he was with the Celtics, because I just thought he's sort of like I'm remembering. I guess what happened immediately after he was traded to the Nets, where he kind of looked washed. Yeah, but there wasn't that steep drop off in Boston. Definitely. I think you saw like a reduction moving off the championship in two thousand and eight to those seasons then coming up. But he was really steady in those age thirty three, thirty four and thirty five seasons and what he did as a defensive communicator, and it seemed like he was the emotional embodiment of that Celtics team, And so I toyed with putting him a little bit higher, but I actually thought I was going to put him lower going into this because I was surprised at how good he was during that latter part of his Celtics tenure. Right, it's fun just to look at the recognition that he got during those three years. The first season that's eligible, he was a first team All Defensive Player, the second season he was a second team All Defensive season All Defensive Team player, and then the third one twenty twelve thirteen, he did not make any of the All Defensive teams, but he got an MVP vote. He actually registered on on MVP vallots, and I think that's a good way of just showing like the recognition that he was still getting from the people who are voting on these awards, like he was still making a huge impact for these teams. I do wish that he had embraced the stretchiness that he had shown earlier in his career and that we were starting to see come in vogue a little bit more in the NBA at that time. It's a little bit frustrating that he only took thirty three pointers during that three year stretch, knowing that he could do more, and then it might have saved some wear and tear as he moved deeper into his thirties. But like, even without that, he was just such an impactful player in so many areas. Yeah, so he I'm with you on the stretchiness. He forty point one percent of his shots during these three years in the decade came between sixteen feet and the three point line. He shot forty seven point five percent from there for those three years combined, and then he shot twenty percent from three point range, and it was just it wasn't that that long ago. It was still novel for someone like him, I guess to be taking three pointers. But he looking back, maybe not in the moment, And it's fine if you're going to hit them at that clip, like whatever, Like those are the shots that he could take. He but he has to lead the all time rankings in dude, couldn't you have just shot more three? Like that has to be especially spending so much time with Rondo too, like you would have thought they'd want that. Well, you know, maybe he would get bored standing behind at three point line though, because Rondo spends like nineteen seconds dribbling the clock out first and passing up two layups during that time is maybe what happened. And I hope that our our listeners are are hearing how much we love Rondo just coming through he was good all Sorry. The other player that was tied, who is he? The other player who is tied at third is Marcus Smart. Marcus Smart was third in your rankings, he was third in mine. And I'd like to take this moment to just kind of criticize the fans a little bit here for only having him six. Like everyone who's voted, thank you so much for voting, but like, do you have a better job with Marcus Smart? All I'm gonna say, and this has become a little bit of my stick. If you made it an all MBA, I'd follow him into hell and back team. Marcus is on it. Even before his three point shot improved over these past two seasons, just a defensive monster and always someone who seemed to elevate the team while he was on the floor with what he was doing, whether it was just because of his defensive activity, really giving a damn about the outcome of every single possession, or defending up more as we've seen in recent years that he can do where he's like, oh, Marcus Smart's a pretty good post defender. Let him defend fours. We don't care. And then again to what he can. He can run sometimes a competent pick and roll. And the uptick in his shooting, particularly last year, I think it dropped this year. I did not check that before. It's gone from thirty six four last year to thirty four eight this year. Yeah, but that's still fine, just based officially now that he's taking six point nine a game and he fires them off. And that's the other thing I love about him, just the irrational confidence he has in the jump shot. It actually amounts to an asset even when it's not going in, because there will still be if you're it's not like he's just standing all the time behind the three point line. If you're going to fire shots off the dribble, you will. Coke's certain defenders into actually guarding you, and there's value in that happening. Absolutely, And I didn't look this up because if it's false, I just want to continue living under this delusion. But it feels like he shoots like sixty percent on threes and clutch situations, like every every time there's a close game, Yep, Marcus Mart's going to make that one. You know, I've never seen him as a clutch shot. So I'm with you. I'm with you, So maybe I should look it up because sixty percent might be low. I mean, maybe maybe this sea i'd like to see, I don't know, for his career, probably take a little while to to look up, but we probably looked that up really quickly. Do you have anything to vamp about while I look up his clutch shooting this season? Yeah? Sure, while you're looking that up, like, let's also just like mention what a good playmaker he's become too. That was something that wasn't really as much of a strength. I don't think when he was back at Oklahoma State. I don't remember the Yeah. Yeah. He averaged four point eight assists per game during his sophomore years. In a sophomore season at Oklahoma state, which is pretty solid. But when he entered the NBA, it didn't seem like he was that kind of point guard who was just going to make everything happen for everyone, especially coming into a franchise that had Rondo for so many years. But he's really become a solid facilitator who never seems to make mistakes when the balls in his hands, Like sometimes he can get over aggressive trying to finish players around the rim, taking jumpers that he doesn't really have any business taking. But like the fact that he's pushing towards five assists per game, doesn't even turn the ball over twice per game, and I feel like at least one of those comes on a charge each time he plays like those are. That's a really great development for a guy who has made as big a five year improvement I think we've seen from any player for this franchise in the last decade. I'm just gonna I went four seasons back on his clutch shooting, and I'm just gonna let you know that the numbers do not agree with you. He is over the last four seasons in the clutch eleven of thirty eight from three for twenty eight point nine percent. Yeah, but those eleven mattered a lot. Well, they were in the crunch time, so of course they mattered anecdotally. Though it doesn't seem like Marcus Smart misses big time threes anecdotally. It he makes enough of them that he draws defensive attention, which is a lot more than we could say about rookie year Marcus Smart. There you go, I like it. Who is number two? So there was a big jump up to the top two, which all three components had as as one and two in some order. Our overall number two player is Isaiah Thomas, who you had at number two, who the fans had at number two, and who I had at number one. So I'll let you lead this one off, though I had Isaiah Thomas and just so good, like the actual what he did for this team, it's more so than that one singular season that we remember from him. But that's that's really like something to remember. You know, you're looking at the way he played after the death of his sister, when he was dealing with didn't have like something's wrong with his he had like dental surgery and he was still playing and he was already bothering into it, right, That's that's definitely sad. But when you traded for him, he was kind of the person that I don't know if I want to say sped up the Celtics timeline, but he is what sort of gave them the ability to straddle two different timelines because you have this feisty team and he pushes them to the playoffs when he comes. And then just the way he played thereafter, like it laid the groundwork for their ascent. And it's forget about making the twenty fifteen playoffs, where they basically just squeaked in. I think they were under five hundred that year, but they win forty eight games in twenty fifteen, twenty and sixteen, and then you put up a reasonable fight against the Atlanta Hawks in the first round. And because he was there, at least in part because he was there, able to poach Al Horford in free agency, and and when Boston was then looking ahead into that season and then seasons after they were mocked for not going after Jimmy Butler or Paul George or Kawhi Leonard uh, they they still were at least to the point of relevance where you were able to envision them really making a Dent in the Eastern Conference and that was a big part of of what he did for them. And so for him to be there and allow the Celtics to be like these quasi East contenders while they were bringing in uh you know, while they were waiting for for these picks to become players. I think that's a huge deal. And then let's not forget he was also basically the centerpiece of the Kyrie Irving trade and so which did him dirty in right, which is you know, that's something to reconcile because he's coming off that crazy twenty seventeen, ten and eighteen season. What was he he was? Was he third or fifth in MVP voting that year? Uh? Just absolutely huge. And the fact that it didn't cost the most expensive or most lucrative asset they gave up to get him was a twenty sixteen first rounder, which ended up being scal Labisa, And so he really helped them bridge between what they were to what they are now. And you're still sort of feeling the ramifications of him being with Boston just because since you didn't need to give up any of those premo picks to get him, yes, you were able to draft Jason Tatum. Yes, you're able to draft Drayl and Jaylon Brown, excuse me, and you you maintained the equity to go out there and get Kyrie Irving regardless of how that sort of panned out. So you're still sort of feeling Thomas's impact. I didn't even talk about his play on the court, but I think he just did so much more for this franchise than than people realize. Yeah, so just to clarify, he was fifth in MVP voting that season, But I'm not sure that I can I can make a good objective argument that he added the most value to Boston over this decade. I do think that's reserved for the other guy that we haven't talked about yet. He was number two for me. But you know what, it kept I kept coming back to the idea that Isaiah Thomas's twenty sixteen seventeen season was the best thing we've seen from anybody in this franchise over the last decade, and I think by maybe a significant margin, just considering the King and the fourth reputation and at how much he continued to do in those those massive moments followed by those playoff heroics during a really trying time in his life, and beyond that, I think that that he, more than anyone else, kind of embodied the mentality and the characteristics of this franchise that has been along. I've been around for so much time, you know, Boston has always been one of the most successful organizations, but it somehow maintained like that scrappy, almost underdog feel throughout a lot of it, you know, dating back to Ed McAuley and then the John Halcheck years and Dave Cowens and Larry Bird and to some extent even Bill Russell coming from going to college at San Francisco and being one of the leading black superstar during a really difficult time to be a black superstar in athletics in America. So to have this five nine point guard who has no business competing with everybody who just towers above him and just dominating game in and game out, I think that mattered a lot, and it's why he resonated with such large portions of that fan base, so that that part of the equation I just I couldn't get past, and it's why I was the only one who had him number one. I mean, I think you can justify having him number one, and that that twenty seventeen twenty eighteen season alone probably makes the case for you. I don't know how many players were more valuable on the offensive end that year. You could. I wouldn't say you could count them on one hand, but I think you can. I mean, Lebron Harden how to be up there, Durant and Steph and then maybe him. Yeah, I mean he's certainly there. So just absolutely I'm not I get why you had him number one. And I actually think, like sort of the anecdotal case that I laid out that can be part of it too, And I think that's part of definitely what makes his number two cases easy. But I do think he has a number one case. I don't think anyone's gonna be surprised at who number one is though, right, Yeah, So, looking at the voting breakdown for the fans before we unveil the answer that everyone already knows, we had seven different people get first place votes. We had Terry Rosier on what seemed to be a little bit trollish of a ballot, the source of a lot of the names that will surprise you when we go through all the other people who got votes. We had Kevin Garnett get one vote, We had Jason Tatum get three, we had Rajon Rondo get six, Marcus Smart got five, and then Isaiah Thomas got ten and Paul Pierce, who is our number one, got nineteen. So he was pretty clearly the fans number one. He was your number one, he was my number two. I've isscolated a lot between him and Thomas for those top two spots, but yeah, take it away. Gonna walk it back a second, because I was trying to set this up off speaking before, but it kept failing. Isaiah Thomas was third in that twenty sixteen twenty seventeen season. If I said twenty seventeen twenty eighteen before I apologize, he was third in NBA mats offensive points added. Only Harden and Westbrook were in front of them, And so there's there's playing time aspect there to that. But Stephen Curry Lebroner are right behind him, and really, as as a quick side note there, it might be important to note that we since Basketball Reference has switched over to their VPM two point zero, which more accurately accounts for the confounding impact of guys with really high assist rates and rebounding rates like Westbrook that he might actually drop down when we eventually update that. Still, for now, he is third. Hats off to Isaiah Thomas. Look, Paul Pierce. I tried to make a past in my head to put Isaiah Thomas over Paul Pierce. But those three seasons that Pierce was with the Celtics in this decade, he was old and just still really ridiculously good, bombing more threes, still averaging over eighteen points a game, shooting well from three during that span. He's a big part of why they're able to push Miami to seven games in twenty twelve. And he definitely has the This is anecdotally again, but he has that clutch gene. It's intangible. But he was making you trust. The Wizards trusted him with the ball and crunch time when he was in his age thirty seven season, and so just he's hit some ridiculously big time shots in his career, and that certainly might have vaulted him over the top on its own, but it's actually just looking how good his numbers were during those final three seasons in Boston, final four excuse me four seasons in Boston. Oh no, it was three. It was three, excuse me three seasons in Boston. He averaged eighteen point nine points four point one assists per game, hit almost fifty percent of his twos, and then shot thirty seven point four percent from three, just like clockwork. And to know that he was the mister Clutch or whatever you want to call mister big shot as Jauncy Billips, I don't know what we call Pierce. I'm not a big fan of the truth. To be honest with truth, no I'm not. I'm not. I'm not with the truth that I actually do not like that nickname. Moving on though, so that just look, I feel like that's one of your hotter takes. You like, the truth is a nickname. I'm kind of indifferent about it, But you might be the first person I've encountered who actively doesn't like it. That's fair. I mean, I don't. I guess I'm not super against it, but I also don't have a better alternative for it either, and so maybe i'll kind of Basketball Reference does list P double as another nickname option. Honestly, I prefer P double. I want to know where that came from, because I know they always have like some sort of source like maybe one random announcer set at one time, but I've never heard that before. Yeah, they it will be players where their nicknames will come up and they're like, who the hell calls them this? I don't think I've ever heard anyone called Paul Pierce P double, And wouldn't double P make more sense? Like, I know that has to do with his initials, P double has to be that. I'm just wondering why it's not double P. Trying to do some on the fly research here, and apparently P double is a hip hop artist, so we might have some issues there. Oh we're out of touch then, but I prefer P double to the truth. You've gone silent? Do you just not that you don't even have a case for it. No, I'm trying to figure out why he's called P double and I'm getting nothing, just like random people have referred to him as this in articles. Oh he does on his website. He actually has a little bit of an explanation here. He says that summer it was kind of weird to me. Usually people call me P squared, P double or P. But my friends were like, what's up truth? And I was like, that kind of has a good ring to it. Eh, P squared. I would have liked to I'm with P squared. Yeah, we can go with P squared. Maybe that's too mathy, but that'd be on brand for NBA mats exactly. Yeah, I'm totally down with that. No, so so with P squared. I think that the biggest thing for me here is he probably has the objective case just because even though he was no longer that peak version of himself, he was like the crafty guy who's figured everything out and hasn't declined that much. Where you know, you called Al Horford the jack of all trades and the master of some right, and it's like Pierce was a slightly souped up version of that, I think, in a smaller package where he could just do everything well and there wasn't one element of his game that that really stood out, which is why I think we saw him not get any sort of award love during these three years. He missed the All Star Game during the final of those three seasons, he didn't get any All NBA All Defensive MVP recognition whatsoever. But he's just really good. He was really good at everything, and you know, he consistently came through in those big moments. He consistently made an impact on both ends of the floor, and he really earned that p square nickname. Imagine him playing more for in his prime, That'd be something I'd be curious to see. Also, what I found interesting just because he wasn't there for a ton of time and because he was older during this decade, he leads the Celtics in vorp for the decade. I would have expected it to be Horford or Thomas, maybe even Irving, and they actually make up the three players behind him. But Paul Pierce ninth thing games played for the Celtics first in vorp during this decade. Yeah, not surprised. Well, before we get out of here, we gotta we gotta hear these honorable mentions. They got weird. Oh and there there are some weird ones. So we're just going to run through the fan vote here. Outside the top ten, we've already talked about Ray Allen, who was eleventh. Kemba Walker was twelve. I would imagine he's only going to keep moving up as he spends more time in Boston. Terry Er was thirteenth because he has a random first place vote and he was tied with Jay Crowder and Jeff Green. Robert Williams showed up tied for sixteenth. He only appeared on one ballot, but got a second place vote, interestingly enough, by the same person who voted Terry Rosier first. He was tied with Kendrick Perkins and Greg Steamsma and Kelly Olynnock. Tied at twentieth. We had Nis Canter, Glenn Davis, and Aaron Baynes alone. In twenty third, we had gershon Yabusela alone. In twenty fourth, we had Grant Williams. Tied at twenty fifth was Shane Larkin and Gordon Hayward, which, for whatever reason I find hilarious because they are such immensely different players in terms of skill. Tied at twenty seventh, we had Greg Monroe, Nate Robinson and Jared Solinger. Tied at thirtieth, we had Tony Allen, Evan Turner, Jermaine O'Neill, and Amir Johnson, and finally tied at thirty fourth with one tenth place vote apiece, we had Shaquille O'Neill, Jordan Crawford, and the one and only Taco Fall. All I'm gonna say is it's nice to know that Robert, one of Robin Williams's parents follows you on Twitter. Interesting. I didn't know that. No, I'm just saying if someone whoever vote him number two, how to be related to him? Oh, I got you. Yeah, that joke totally flew over my head. That was not funny. That's why I flew over your head. But yeah, most things go ahead. I think with these votes like, it's it's funny because we have no way of making people take it seriously. I think most people have and we're very appreciative for that. And the random answers like are kind of funny. Like I'm not gonna lie. Like I definitely chuckled a little bit when I opened up the voting results and I'm like, wow, like Robert Williams got a second place vote. That's amazing, So thank you to whoever did that. I'm actually gonna take the opposite approach and urge people to please take this seriously so we can get better consolidated results. We want those composite rankings to be They ended up fine, but Robert Williams being in the as I any horrible men as he was, He's a little bit problematic, But it's just the honorable mentions if he if it had been a bunch of people, just a bunch of Robert Williams stands really coming in and really juiced up putting him in the top ten, That's that's where it could become an issue. And so it'll be interesting to see how high Kyle Kuzma ranks when when we're doing the Lakers. That's all. That's all I would like to wonder. Oh, for sure, I think I think with one like Boston, like we had enough votes that it doesn't really matter as much because those are ultimately going to get outweighed. But for some of the franchises where we know there aren't going to be quite as many responses because the fan bases are smaller, like, we would definitely urge people to keep it more serious. I'm actually a little disappointed yab we Selly didn't finish higher where the yab sell fans stands at. Yeah, he was on two ballots. He got a sixth and ninth place vote, both of which are too low. That's my expert opinion, Adam, this was fun. We will eventually be back with who do we have next to Brooklyn nets That's gonna be that's gonna be hell I took a look at it because I haven't done my rankings yet, but that's gonna be. That's gonna be hellish. Yeah, it's like the same thing as the Boston Celtics where they have so many different small mini eras within this last decade, except none of them were as good. Well, be on the lookout for that. Maybe it'll be dropping sometime this week, depending on what the rest of the Hardwooknox recording schedule turns out to be. As always, thank you, Adam. Follow Adam on Twitter. Listeners at Framo zero nine, follow NBA Math at MBA Underscore Math. You can follow Andy on Twitter at Andrew D. Bailey. I'm at Dan for Valley FA V A l E. Please remember, as always to follow the show at hardwoo Knox on Twitter. We have a YouTube channel, so check out hardware Knox on YouTube, subscribe there, and above all, please make sure you're rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us everywhere wherever you're getting your podcast, but iTunes is the is the best way to help us out. So thank you for listening, and until next time, I leave everybody with the shout out too. What the Hell y'abuselli, Gershon y'abuselli, Shout out to You, Sugar, Ray, Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four part series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime