1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:06,519 People think I'm just condemned to this misery, and the more they believe that, 2 00:00:06,759 --> 00:00:10,080 the more miserable they get. And so if instead you say, I 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,199 can teach my brain to modulate these signals right now. For example, Fred, 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,920 you're sitting in a chair. I guess you were not aware of the 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:22,079 sensations of your body touching the chair, and so your brain automatically just shuts 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,199 it down. I don't need to pay attention to that doesn't matter. Your 7 00:00:25,199 --> 00:00:28,280 brain can do that with pain too, And the problem with pain is that 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,920 a lot of people, when they've been injured, they want to be back 9 00:00:31,199 --> 00:00:34,679 just the way they were before it happened. I get that, but all 10 00:00:34,759 --> 00:00:38,640 that does is get you to pay more attention to the pain, unless to 11 00:00:38,679 --> 00:00:42,240 other things you would or narrowly be paying attention to. That's where the focus 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,200 of attention and hypnosis is so useful, because it gets you to focus on 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,799 what you're for, what you want, not on what you're against or frustrated 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:55,039 by. Hi. This is Gary Leslie from Bay City, Michigan, and 15 00:00:55,119 --> 00:00:59,960 I play at the Bay Valley Golf Club. This is Golf Smarter number two 16 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:07,599 thirty seven, The Power of self hypnosis to improve a golfer's' focus with doctor 17 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:15,000 David Spiegel. This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from 18 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,680 great golf minds to help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ. 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:25,239 Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast, Doctor 20 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,079 Spiegel. Thank you, Fred, I'm delighted to be here. It's great 21 00:01:29,079 --> 00:01:32,480 to have you on. We always like the Stanford connection anytime where we go 22 00:01:33,079 --> 00:01:34,719 terrific. Well, keep it in the family to be with you, you 23 00:01:34,799 --> 00:01:41,359 bet. Yeah. So I want to go right to this and just ask 24 00:01:41,439 --> 00:01:48,040 you what is self hypnosis? Well, all hypnosis is really self hypnosis, 25 00:01:48,159 --> 00:01:53,959 and it's a capacity that people have that it involves three fundamental features. The 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,879 first is absorption, getting so caught up in something that you forget your engaging 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:01,319 and that you've just become a part of it. So have you ever had 28 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,959 the experience when you're golfing, for example, of just being in the flow 29 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,520 of the game and not worrying about anything you have to do later, not 30 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:12,560 wondering how you got here or who the other players are, just you're in 31 00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:21,280 it. That sense of flower engagement is typical of hypnosis. It's been called 32 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,960 believed in imagination. So you're in a world that you've created, and to 33 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:29,759 do that, you dissociate. You put outside of conscious awareness things that would 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,319 ordinarily be in consciousness, so you cease to worry about things. And I 35 00:02:34,439 --> 00:02:40,400 heard you on your you Know Tigers five Things podcast talking about the fact that 36 00:02:40,439 --> 00:02:45,000 golf is not a contact sport. You know that it really doesn't matter what 37 00:02:45,039 --> 00:02:47,840 the other players are doing. What matters is what you're doing. You're competing 38 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:53,319 with yourself, not someone else. And so hypnosis helps you put outside of 39 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:59,039 conscious awareness things that would be in consciousness to enable you to totally absorb yourself 40 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,439 in your experience. Now, the third part is the most in some ways 41 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:08,039 interesting part, and that's what people have been fearful of, you know, 42 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:13,199 suggestibility. Somebody will make you, you know, cluck like a chicken, 43 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:16,639 or the football coach will dance like a ballerina in front of five hundred people 44 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:22,520 and they'll left. I don't like stage hypnosis, but there is a lesson 45 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,319 there, and that is you can try out being different. You can let 46 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,879 go suppress your usual expectations of who you are and what you are. The 47 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,960 part of your brain that worries about what other people are thinking about and just 48 00:03:35,039 --> 00:03:38,240 let yourself try out being different and see what it feels like. And so 49 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:46,319 it makes hypnosis a beautiful setting for change, for focusing on something that's important, 50 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:52,360 putting outside of awareness things that are interfering, and try out being different, 51 00:03:52,439 --> 00:03:57,639 see what it feels like. Well, we talk about flow state a 52 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,840 lot on this show. We've had a lot of people on talking about flow 53 00:04:00,879 --> 00:04:04,960 state. So I guess it's yeah, I knew. Chick sent me high. 54 00:04:05,039 --> 00:04:09,120 You know his book Flow, and you know, one of the things 55 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:14,080 he said about flow is that it's an autotelic experience. It feels so good 56 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:18,040 doing it that you just it's its own reward. And there is a way 57 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:23,519 in which hypnosis can be used to not just focus better, not just perform 58 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:30,240 better, but change the experience so that the presence of it itself is the 59 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,680 reward is the experience. And I think one problem that many athletes have, 60 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:39,319 including golfers, from what I understand, is that you focus too much on 61 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:44,439 the outcome and not enough on the process. If you're if you're busy worrying 62 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,399 about what it's going to mean, if you you know, wind up in 63 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:54,000 the rough or in a lake, somewhere you're you're disconnecting yourself from what really 64 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,240 matters. There's a there's a book called Zen in the Art of Archery in 65 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:03,160 which a British research interviewed a bunch of zen masters, and the lesson from 66 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:08,879 Zen and the Art of Archery is most archers make the mistake of focusing on 67 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,680 the target. And you might think to yourself, well, what the hell 68 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,319 are you supposed to focus on? You know, well, he said, 69 00:05:14,319 --> 00:05:18,439 what matters is your relationship with the bow and arrow, and if the relationship 70 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,160 is correct, the arrow will go where you want it to go. And 71 00:05:23,879 --> 00:05:28,120 that's a real analogy I think for golf, where you know you're if you're 72 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,399 focusing to you obviously you've got to pay attention to where the ball's going, 73 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,920 but that's not where the action is. The action is your connection with the 74 00:05:33,959 --> 00:05:39,720 club and the ball and how you connect with it and then hopefully it will 75 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,680 wind up in the right place. But if you're focusing on the green up 76 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:47,240 there, you may be disconnecting from the feelings of your body connecting with and 77 00:05:47,319 --> 00:05:55,480 managing the club. Well, we've had multiple conversations here on golf Smarter, 78 00:05:55,600 --> 00:06:00,240 and that's why it's called golf smarter. We've talked to doctor Joe Parent who 79 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:11,000 wrote Zen Golf and talked frequently about it's the process not the outcome, or 80 00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:15,560 NATO golf not attached to outcome. I mean, there's so yeah done. 81 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:23,199 We've done so many different episodes talking about this very thing, very thing about 82 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:32,279 doing that. But there's also the conversations we've had with neuroscientists about not focusing 83 00:06:32,399 --> 00:06:38,079 on your body but focusing on external things. Because when you start focusing, 84 00:06:38,079 --> 00:06:44,079 when athletes start to focus on internal, that's when they get themselves in trouble. 85 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,800 I'm not sure that's true. I don't know who they were and what 86 00:06:48,879 --> 00:06:55,839 their point was, but I actually think that your body is your primary ally 87 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,199 in athletic performance, and you want to be paying attention to it. And 88 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,360 when you when you're using your body well and it's serving you well, you're 89 00:07:04,639 --> 00:07:10,120 sort of enjoying one another. I'll give you an example. Fred years ago, 90 00:07:10,279 --> 00:07:14,600 I Stanford, as you know your son went to Stanford, has a 91 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,959 fabulous swim and swimming team. I mean they are just the best, and 92 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:23,839 they're you know, the swimmers are recognized every year yep. And and but 93 00:07:24,319 --> 00:07:29,399 their coach noticed that they were actually swimming faster in practice than they were in 94 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,240 meats, And he said, what the hell is that about? I mean, 95 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,079 you would think, you know, you're it matters, you know, 96 00:07:34,279 --> 00:07:39,120 your energy is up, you're focused, you're you know, not concentrating on 97 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:44,879 anything else. But that's what he observed. So what we realized in talking 98 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,839 to these young women is that they were being distracted by the women swimming in 99 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:53,360 the next lane during a meat, am I keeping up with her? Is 100 00:07:53,399 --> 00:07:57,279 she doing something I should be doing? And you know, swimming is not 101 00:07:57,319 --> 00:08:03,839 a contact sport, neither hopefully is off and so you're diffusing your energy in 102 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:09,040 a non productive way if you're paying attention to what she's doing in the next 103 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,680 lane, Because it doesn't matter. What matters is how you're swimming. So 104 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:20,399 I had them practice doing self hypnosis swimming their best race, just how they 105 00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:24,879 related to their body, how it felt, how they connected with their muscles, 106 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:31,439 how they swim it forcefully but efficiently, you know, not wasting energy 107 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,960 and part of a stroke that doesn't actually move them forward. And they did 108 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,519 much better because they focused on what they needed to focus on, which is 109 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:45,639 their connection with their body and how they made it swim as efficiently and fast 110 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,840 as possible. Sure, and with golf, it's really focused on yourself. 111 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,000 You don't worry about the competition because it's not you know, your score against 112 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:58,559 their score. You're not on offense and defense, right, You've got to 113 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:03,360 just play your game. And you hear so many people, especially the pros 114 00:09:03,399 --> 00:09:05,919 on Sundays after you know their game, is like, I just had to 115 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,919 stay in my lane. I had to focus on myself and my game and 116 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:16,360 whatever happens outside I can't control, right, and so if but worse than 117 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,679 that, if it becomes a distraction, if you are thinking about it and 118 00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:26,000 what he or she is doing, you're you're disconnecting yourself from what matters, 119 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:31,799 which is how you and your body get together. And you know, obviously 120 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:35,840 the obvious example, I can't get to an interview on golf and hypnosis without 121 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,120 mentioning Tiger, And you know he apparently, I don't anything personally about it. 122 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:46,879 Be apparently trained and routinely used hypnosis. And one of the things he 123 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:52,120 did was he would mentally rehearse in a hypnotic like state every shot before he 124 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:58,399 took it, so he was kind of programming his body to respond and the 125 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,039 other thing that's so striking about him is just how glacially calm he is in 126 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,879 the most stressful possible circumstances. And there it has to do, I think, 127 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:15,120 with the ability of people using hypnosis to manage the stress in their body 128 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:20,720 in a way that it doesn't interfere that they're aroused, but they're not overwhelmed 129 00:10:20,879 --> 00:10:28,000 or tensing muscles inappropriately, because you really need smooth coordination among muscle activity to 130 00:10:28,039 --> 00:10:33,840 make the best shot, and if you're unduly tense in spite of that, 131 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:39,360 you know the bad things will happen. How does this differ than visualization. 132 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:48,240 Well, visualization is primarily visual, not somatic, so it can get you 133 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,759 to think about it, but you're thinking about it as if you were watching 134 00:10:52,759 --> 00:10:56,759 your own movie, rather than feeling it from inside. And so one of 135 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:03,159 the standard ways in hypnosis different I will have picture people use visualization, but 136 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:09,080 do it to get their body into a state that is relaxed and comfortable. 137 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,000 So I don't the last thing I do is say picture yourself being relaxed, 138 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,919 because you know, that's like saying don't think about purple elephants. You know, 139 00:11:16,879 --> 00:11:18,960 you know, oh wait a minute, I'm not relaxed, you know. 140 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,360 So instead I use imagery to have people imagine a situation where their bodies 141 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:28,559 are safe and comfortable. Imagine you're in a bath like a hot tub, 142 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,919 or floating in space, and get your body to let go first and then 143 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,960 deal with whatever is stressing you. So typically you picture yourself somewhere where your 144 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:43,600 body is comfortable, and then you picture what what do I want my body 145 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:48,360 to do? How can I get my body to respond in a way that 146 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:52,000 will help me accomplish what I want to accomplish, But first, just get 147 00:11:52,039 --> 00:11:58,840 it comfortable. My closest experience was I was trying to water ski. It 148 00:11:58,879 --> 00:12:01,919 looks so cool, you know, and I'm a pretty good downhill skier, 149 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,279 but I just I just kept doing face plants in the water, you know, 150 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:09,759 And I was more and more frustrated. And then I thought, come 151 00:12:09,799 --> 00:12:11,360 on, Spiegel, you do this for a living, you know. So 152 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:18,039 I pictured my body first floating in a lake in under lake, and then 153 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,360 I said to myself two things I want you to remember. Arm straight, 154 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,879 knees bent. Arms straight, knees bent, because you know, you do 155 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:31,799 the opposite. If you're anxious, you pull back, and that makes your 156 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,480 the steadiness of the pull variable, which is very hard to deal with. 157 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:39,840 And if your knees are straight, you can't absorb shocks, so any slight 158 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,080 wave or something is going to knock you over. So I've been water skiing 159 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,039 ever since. You know, I was up and I stayed up, and 160 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,600 it was just programming my body to do what it needed to do, not 161 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:54,120 react to the sense of tension and fear that comes if you think the thing's 162 00:12:54,159 --> 00:13:00,399 going to pull you over. So it's a simple example. And it was 163 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,440 not a great athletic accomplishment, but it wasn't bad either, but it was 164 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:07,799 an accomplishment nonetheless. All right, let's take a time out. We'll be 165 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:20,240 back right after this. So David, you're saying that self hypnosis or it's 166 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:26,360 all self hypnosis is good for golfers. Yes, absolutely, and you know, 167 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:31,960 of course Tiger is the prime example. But if I was thinking of 168 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:39,399 another story that you told on that podcast, Fred about the seventeen year old 169 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:45,159 who you were kind of mentoring and how he looked really promising. You said, 170 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:46,919 he looked very promising when he was calmed. He fell apart when he 171 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,279 was anxious. And you know, you see, one day you had suggested 172 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,000 meditation or listening to calming slow music, and he did really well. And 173 00:13:56,039 --> 00:14:01,120 then the next day he blew it. And you talked about which is important. 174 00:14:01,159 --> 00:14:05,840 There are math problems that matter, but when I'm thinking, my role 175 00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:09,840 as a psychiatrist is the problem. His problem was just he didn't know how 176 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,759 to handle his anxiety. That you know, anxiety is a good thing and 177 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:16,000 in that it alerts you to what you need to be concerned about, but 178 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:22,399 it's not a good thing in that it can cause reactions in your body. 179 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:26,639 And you know, you were talking about your friend skiing what I call the 180 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,840 snowball effect of anxiety, and that is you worry about something like can I 181 00:14:31,879 --> 00:14:37,679 make this shot? And then your body starts to react to that, and 182 00:14:37,679 --> 00:14:41,200 it starts to tense up because it's a hard shot, and you know you're 183 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,240 worried about, you know, running up a bad score and all this, 184 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:48,679 and so then your body says, now he's really worried, and it gets 185 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:52,159 more tense, and then you notice that, you know, your gut tightens 186 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,200 up, you start to sweat, your heart rate goes up, and then 187 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,960 you think, oh boy, this must be really bad. And so it's 188 00:14:56,000 --> 00:15:00,559 like a snowball rolling down hill. It gets worse and worse when you're faced 189 00:15:00,559 --> 00:15:03,559 with a stressor. It's a stressor. You've got to deal with it. 190 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:07,480 You don't know how. That's start of what's making you anxious. I start 191 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,480 with hypnosis from the body up rather than the head down. I say, 192 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,639 there's one aspect of this situation you actually have immediate control over, and that's 193 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:22,039 how your body's reacting to it. So what I do is have people imagine 194 00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:26,519 in hypnosis, look up close your eyes, take a deep breath. Imagine 195 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:28,279 you're floating in a bath of like a hot tever, floating in space. 196 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,480 Get your body comfortable. Now, once your body is better, then picture 197 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:37,200 on an imaginary screen the problem you're trying to deal with, but with the 198 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:39,759 rule that no matter what you see on the screen, you keep your body 199 00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:43,080 comfortable. So you get to where you can see the problem, keep your 200 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,200 body comfortable. And then I say, now on the other half of the 201 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,399 screen, I have people divided in half, like what we're doing right here, 202 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:52,799 and I say, picture one way of dealing with a problem, but 203 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:58,879 keep your body comfortable. So then you could picture a particular stroke you want 204 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:03,919 to take and how it would feel to make that swing, but you're doing 205 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,639 it from a position of your body helping you, not interfering, because you've 206 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:11,919 got control of your body. It's comfortable and ready to respond. And and 207 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,960 that's where this idea of you know, flow and connecting with your body, 208 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,639 I think is very important because it will feel right, you know, and 209 00:16:19,679 --> 00:16:22,960 you'll you'll know it with your body. If what you've done feels right, 210 00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:27,080 you know, you'll know before the ball has gone very far that it's likely 211 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:33,200 to wind up where you're hoping. But it's a matter of the self control 212 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:36,960 first. So I think you know your your story about how when he just 213 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:44,080 you just told him to listen to some calming music actually worked, or try 214 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,679 a little meditation or something that that The issue is bringing your body on board 215 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,320 and making your connection with your body something that improves your game, it doesn't 216 00:16:53,360 --> 00:17:00,960 interfere with it. Well. So I'm going into this new golf season here 217 00:17:02,519 --> 00:17:07,480 in twenty twenty four and I've had I've been on medical hiatus from golf for 218 00:17:07,519 --> 00:17:12,960 about three months. Sorry pinch nerve tennis elbow. So just letting it rest 219 00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:19,319 not a problem. But over these three months of not touching a golf club, 220 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:29,400 there's been opportunity for doubt to start dictating. You know, Oh, 221 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,599 you're so rusty, it's gonna be terrible. You're gonna have a tough year. 222 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,559 It's gonna be and I'm trying to fight that with Hey, you know 223 00:17:36,599 --> 00:17:38,519 how to swing the club, you know how to score, you know what 224 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:45,799 you're doing out there. So I have this internal battle going on, and 225 00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:55,200 I'd love to just squash the doubt and just focus on being comfortable and trusting 226 00:17:55,799 --> 00:18:00,640 myself. How can this help? What I would try to do is go 227 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:06,440 into a state of self ignosis, get your body floating, safe and comfortable. 228 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,519 And we've developed this app, you know about Reverie, where you get 229 00:18:08,519 --> 00:18:12,920 to hear my malfluous voice giving you instructions of how to do it, interacting 230 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,240 with you. Ask a question, you get a response that's different depending on 231 00:18:17,319 --> 00:18:22,799 what you say, and get your body floating, safe and comfortable. We 232 00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,920 have a stress management app. And then I would actually ask you to focus 233 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:33,960 in self hygnosis on your relationship with your body, because the little story you 234 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:40,359 told me, Fred is one that sort of conveys annoyance or resentment or you 235 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,160 know, damn it, you know this thing is keeping me from what I'm 236 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,720 doing, and I'm just losing time and losing connection with my skill and all 237 00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:51,279 this stuff not a very positive frame. And I would say, you know 238 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:56,400 what, you and your body are getting older together like me and my body, 239 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:02,079 and you're doing something that is taking care of your body. You know, 240 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,799 you're being a good parent to your body and helping it recover if it's 241 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:08,079 got a problem. Your body has gotten you out of a lot of scrapes. 242 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:15,079 You're helping it now. And think of it as you and your body 243 00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:19,559 reaching a new understanding about how you will help it get better so it can 244 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:26,160 help you play better. But it's not that it's an annoyance or an interference, 245 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,240 which in some ways it is. I get that, but more that 246 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,279 you're kind of coming. You're giving your body or vacation and you're helping it 247 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:38,920 heal and you're hoping that that will have the effect of your body feeling better 248 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:45,559 and you playing better. So I would try and experience it in those terms, 249 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,200 so that you're appreciating what your body can do and helping it get back 250 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:56,119 to speed rather than feeling interrupted, interfered with, annoyed. Yeah. Well, 251 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:03,200 and I think golfers are plagued by doubt. Sure, I think that's 252 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,000 from what I know of that. Yes, so how do you handle it? 253 00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:12,759 Right, I'm asking you? Oh that's my all right? Yeah, 254 00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:18,200 Well, there's a saying. There's a saying Fred that when you come across 255 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:25,319 an obstacle on the road, it's often a signpost. And so it's it's 256 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,640 I would say, it's a way of telling yourself there's something you need to 257 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:36,640 pay attention to that can improve your game even more. And so you're you 258 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,240 know, it's a it's a fluid, complex game. Uh little movements have 259 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:48,400 big effects. And so what you're doing is is further tuning your ability to 260 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,240 interact with your body in such a way that it helps you do what you 261 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:56,240 want to do. And uh so anything you can learn about your body and 262 00:20:56,279 --> 00:21:00,759 how it's reacting, can you play, learn to play in a way that 263 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:06,440 is less likely to bother that nerve or you know, affect your shoulder. 264 00:21:06,559 --> 00:21:11,519 Can you can you adjust your swing so that it is less likely to cause 265 00:21:11,559 --> 00:21:15,440 strain that your body doesn't need because this is an interaction between you and your 266 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,279 body. So I would, again, in self ignosis sort of say, 267 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:26,079 listen to your body as you start to resume your swing and say, what 268 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,079 are the movements that feel good and feel safe and what are the ones that 269 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:34,119 don't. What can I learn from this about how to play differently and play 270 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:38,400 better so that I'm not, you know, putting a demand on some part 271 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:44,480 of my body that it's not capable of fulfilling. So it is a lot 272 00:21:44,519 --> 00:21:48,000 of paying attention to yourself, to yourself and your body, to your body. 273 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:52,119 You know, it's it's not just yourself, it's your body. And 274 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:59,200 where's the disconnect between the two yourself your body? Oh, because you know 275 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,839 you and your your body have a partnership, right, you know it let 276 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,599 you do what you want to do, but you control how it does it. 277 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:11,400 And they're not the same thing. And so you know you can you 278 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,960 can wear it out and overstress it, you know, and do things that 279 00:22:15,839 --> 00:22:19,759 cause it harm, or you can work with it and do things that get 280 00:22:19,759 --> 00:22:25,519 what you want but also keeps your body healthy and safe. And too much 281 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:30,279 tension, too much pressure, can interfere with both with your body and also 282 00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:34,000 your goals what you want to do. But you're not the same. You 283 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:38,200 are your body's keeper. You're someone who's looking after it. And if you 284 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,599 look after it well. It will take care of you and if you don't, 285 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:47,920 it won't be able to. And so I think it's a way of 286 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,400 an hypnosis of coming to a sense of sort of equilibrium, you know, 287 00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:55,559 between your goals and your body's goals. You know, your body's goal is 288 00:22:55,559 --> 00:23:00,960 to stay healthy and function well and yours is to play some great rounds and 289 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,359 things like that. And hopefully most of the time, it probably is true 290 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,599 in your life that's they've gone together just fine, but every once in a 291 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:14,319 while they don't. Sometimes yeah, yeah, so so. But but think 292 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:18,119 of yourself, you know, dealing with your body the way you would if 293 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,079 your kid when they were little, was injured. You know, you wouldn't 294 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:23,759 get frustrated with them. You'd give them a hug and help them, you 295 00:23:23,799 --> 00:23:30,079 know, figure out how to not hurt themselves more and heal. And that's 296 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,640 sort of the role you're in with your body. You're you're not the same 297 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,279 as your body, but you can't live without it, so you want to 298 00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:38,960 take good care of it. Absolutely, take another time out. I'll be 299 00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:48,440 back one minute, all right, David. I need to know the history 300 00:23:48,759 --> 00:23:56,880 of how you got to this point of creating reverie dot com. But also 301 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:06,440 how you developed your program. Sure well, I developed revery dot com with 302 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,160 the help of Aerial Polar who's a serial entrepreneur who heard me talking in a 303 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:17,599 Brain Body summit at Stanford about four years ago, and he started Strava, 304 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,759 you know, which is exercise app that's doing very well a bunch of others. 305 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:22,839 He said, hey, would you like to build a hypnosis app? 306 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,480 And I said, what a cool idea. Let's do it. And so 307 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:30,440 we started with Alexa. You know, at the time, Alexa was making 308 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:34,319 very easy for people to build programs so that the talking speaker could you know, 309 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,079 be used by more and more people. And we did a stop smoking 310 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,440 program on the app. You know, got people hypnotized for my body. 311 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,039 Smoking is a poison. I need my body to live. I own my 312 00:24:47,039 --> 00:24:52,400 body respect and protection. We got nineteen percent stop smoking, which is about 313 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,599 as good as you get with Verona, Cleaner, View Appropriate or Nicorette. 314 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,359 You know, it's it's not bad. And the remainder cut down substained on 315 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,680 how much they were smoking. And so we thought, you know, this 316 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,519 works, you know, and actually we can do this, and so then 317 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:11,319 we decide, but he said it was a little clunky working with the smart 318 00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:14,839 speaker, and people didn't like their speakers listening into their conversations at home and 319 00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:17,920 all that. So he said, let's build an app. So we did, 320 00:25:18,279 --> 00:25:22,000 and we've now had about half a million downloads and people are using it 321 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:27,720 for stopping smoking, for stress, for pain, for insomnia, for eating 322 00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:33,759 better, for focusing attention, which is a key issue, which is really 323 00:25:33,799 --> 00:25:36,640 why I wanted to talk. Yeah, you bet and so, And the 324 00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:38,279 nice thing is you can. You know. All you got to do is, 325 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,880 you know, open the app and get right to the exercise you want 326 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,000 and you hear my voice talking interactively to you. We have the typical exercises 327 00:25:48,039 --> 00:25:53,519 about ten minutes, but you can do We have one minute refreshers and so 328 00:25:53,759 --> 00:25:56,880 you can do it every day, a few times a day. You can 329 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,480 do it before you go out to play and just get your mind in the 330 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:03,759 right frame of mind for But don't you do it while you're driving to the 331 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:07,079 golf course. Probably not? Probably not, that's right, Although you know, 332 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,559 there's this phrase highway hypnosis. You know, you realize you were thinking 333 00:26:10,559 --> 00:26:12,759 about something so much that you passed your exit on the freeway. That so 334 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,559 there is a set of hypnotic phenomena. But I don't recommend using the app 335 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,039 on the freeway, that's right, But it is a way of preparing yourself 336 00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:26,880 and focusing attention. So I thought, you know what, I've used hypnosis, 337 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:32,480 Fred with about seven thousand people in my career, patients and research subjects, 338 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,119 and I thought, you know, that's a lot of people. I 339 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,920 feel good about that. But hypnosis is sort of the Rodney dangerfield of psychotherapy. 340 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:45,480 You remember Rodney dangerfields. You know, I don't get no respect, 341 00:26:45,519 --> 00:26:48,680 he said. They asked me to leave a bar so they could start happy 342 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,359 hour, you know that kind of thing. And my wife right, And 343 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,200 it's the oldest Western conception of a psychotherapy, the first time that talking interaction 344 00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:04,400 was thought to have therapeutic potential, and yet it is underutilized. There aren't 345 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,759 enough people who do it, who teach people how to do it, and 346 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:14,640 it's viewed as either silly or dangerous or both. And the way it started 347 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,680 for me, Fred was it is it's a bit of a genetic illness in 348 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,920 my family that my parents were both psychiatrists and psychoanalysts, and they told me 349 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:26,119 I was free to be any kind of psychiatrist I wanted to be so here 350 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,920 I am, but you know, dinner table conversation was pretty interesting. And 351 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,039 I would occasionally get to watch my father making a movie of a highly hypnotizable 352 00:27:36,079 --> 00:27:40,400 patient having these non epileptic seizures and he could bring them on and the teacher 353 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,640 to control them, and you watch these patients go into the seizure state. 354 00:27:44,519 --> 00:27:47,359 So when I got to medical school, I thought, well, I better 355 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,759 take a hypnosis course, which I did. The chief of psychiatry at Mass 356 00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:56,079 General was teaching one and I was on my Were you at Harvard Harvard? 357 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,759 Yeah? I was at Harvard Medical School and I was on my rotation and 358 00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:03,839 pediatrics, and the nurse says, speak all your next patients in the room 359 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,079 three forty two. And I'm following the sound of her wheezing down the hall. 360 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,880 She's in status asthmnicus and she'd been hospitalized every month for three months. 361 00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:15,640 I walk in the room. Pretty fifteen year old redhead bolt upright in bed, 362 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:18,160 knuckles white, struggling for breath. Mothers standing there crying, nursed in 363 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,440 the room. And they had tried subcutaneous epinefron twice didn't work. They were 364 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,559 thinking about general anesthesia and steroids, and I don't know what the hell to 365 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:32,079 do, So I thought, well, why don't I try hypnosis? So 366 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,279 I said, you want to learn a breathing exercise, and she nods, 367 00:28:34,839 --> 00:28:40,240 and so I get her hypnotized. And then I start to sweat when I 368 00:28:40,279 --> 00:28:42,960 realized that we hadn't gotten to asthma in the course yet. So I came 369 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:47,160 up with something very clever. I said, each breath you take will be 370 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,240 a little deeper and a little easier. And within five minutes she's lying back 371 00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:53,440 in bed, she's not wheezing anymore, her knuckles aren't white. Her mother 372 00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:57,839 stopped crying. The nurse ran out of the room, and my intern comes 373 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,039 looking for me, and I figure he's going to pat me on the back 374 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,240 and say, great job, Spiegel. He said, the nurse has just 375 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:08,559 filed a complaint with the nursing supervisor that you violated Massachusetts law by hypnotizing a 376 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:18,480 minor without parental consent. Now that look on your face, the look too, 377 00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:21,720 I'll tell you, Yeah, I couldn't believe that. You know, 378 00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:23,640 in Massachusetts has a lot of weird laws, but that isn't on the list. 379 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,039 And her mother was standing right next and then you go to California. 380 00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:32,759 Well, I had to escape, you know, violating messages. We don't 381 00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:36,640 have weird laws here. Well, you know, there's actually a story there, 382 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:41,559 Fred, because at the time on the East Coast, psychiatry was very 383 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:48,039 much dominated by rather rigid classical psychoanalysis, and Freud gave up hypnosis, so 384 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:52,000 who was anyone else to use it kind of thing, and California had a 385 00:29:52,039 --> 00:29:55,200 sort of free or feel to it. Actually I can tell you about that, 386 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,880 but I'll just say so. The intern says to me, Spiegel, 387 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,160 you're going to have to stop doing this. And I said, oh, 388 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,240 really why? He said, it's dangerous. I said, are you kidding? 389 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,559 You're going to give a general line of station and you think my talking 390 00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:10,359 to her is dangerous? And he said, well, you have to stop 391 00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:12,200 doing I said, tell you what, take me off the case if you 392 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,119 want, you have the right to do that. But as long as she's 393 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,359 my patient, I'm not telling her something I know is not true. So 394 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,519 he stopped off, and there was a council of war with the Chief Resident 395 00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:26,400 of the attending and they came back on Monday with a radical idea. They 396 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,519 said, let's ask the patient. You know, I don't think they'd ever 397 00:30:29,559 --> 00:30:33,400 done that before. Oh my goodness. And she said, you know, 398 00:30:33,559 --> 00:30:37,000 I like this. Well. She was hospitalized one subsequent time, but went 399 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:41,000 on to study to be a respiratory therapist. And I thought that anything that 400 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:47,400 could help a patient that much violate the head nurse and a Massachusetts law that 401 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,079 didn't exist had to be worth looking into. And I've been doing it ever 402 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,240 since, and I just you can see it with your eyes. You know. 403 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:02,039 It's an opportunity for people to change in a hurry and to mobilize and 404 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,559 use a resource they have anyway. You know, people who are highly advertizable, 405 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:08,279 even without any formal hypnosis, are the kind of people that get lost 406 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:11,759 in a sunset, you know, or they're so busy working on something that 407 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:17,000 they forget about dinner or something like that. They tend to engage intently with 408 00:31:17,039 --> 00:31:19,640 other people and really feel what other people. They are sort of intuitively connected 409 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,880 with people, and that's a benefit. It's not a liability, and if 410 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,839 it is, there are some people who are just sort of too open to 411 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,599 other people's points of view. But you know, if we're social creatures, 412 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:37,160 you know, we're susceptible of social influence. Hypnosis sometimes in a more intense 413 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,720 way, but it's always under your control. Nobody is making you do something. 414 00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:45,559 You're allowing yourself to immerse yourself in that. And you know, God 415 00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:48,359 knows. If you look at, you know, current American politics, you 416 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:52,440 can see that people are susceptible of social influence. So that's not the problem. 417 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,319 The problem is how you identify your ability and use it to your advantage. 418 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,240 And so that's it. And I'm say I came to California to Stanford 419 00:32:02,319 --> 00:32:07,319 because I since there was an openness to things like this that were different, 420 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,839 and Stanford gave me the opportunity to you know that Nobody, you know, 421 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,920 patted me on the back and said, here will help you do this, 422 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:16,640 but they let me do it. And if you can, you know, 423 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,319 get grants and write papers and run a lab and take care of patients, 424 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,839 that was fine with Stanford, you know. And that's why I'm still there, 425 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:30,640 you know. So the opportunity to take advantage of whatever the phenomenon has 426 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:36,359 to teach us is something that I made the most of at Stanford and feel 427 00:32:36,359 --> 00:32:38,799 good about it. But I want to spread the wealth. I want everybody 428 00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:47,039 to have an opportunity to take advantage of it. So I hope that Reverie 429 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:52,319 will allow many more people, and we've seen it happening that many more people 430 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,599 have been able to identify and take advantage of their own hypnotic ability. We 431 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:02,279 even have a hypnotize ability test on it, so we can help people determine 432 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:07,279 how hypnotizable they are and therefore how easy it is for them to use use 433 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:13,359 the app. All right, do you need to get that call? But 434 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,799 we need to take a break, so we'll do that right now, you'll 435 00:33:15,839 --> 00:33:27,000 be back. I'm assuming you grew up on the East Coast. I did, 436 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,559 grew up in New York, in New York, Boston, out California. 437 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,519 That's right. You got to you're a heretic, a little bit, 438 00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:37,200 a little bit, a little stop in New Haven for four years on the 439 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,640 way, but that was that was it, okay. And so all this 440 00:33:42,759 --> 00:33:45,799 time you once you figured that out with that first patient, you this kind 441 00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:52,759 of drew you in and you continued to pursue it and develop it. And 442 00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:57,160 it's a course of study now at Stanford, and it is tell me how 443 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,440 far you've been able to take this beyond the app and we'll get to we'll 444 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,920 get to the details of the app in just a moment. Well, you 445 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,599 know, there are there is a community of professionals who use hypnosis. Were 446 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,920 not big, but there are a couple of professional hypnosis societies. I have 447 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:15,199 colleagues who have done very good research on it, and but I've been able 448 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,840 to publish, you know, about one hundred and fifty papers on hypnosis and 449 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,639 publish in really good journals where people respected. We had to cover of the 450 00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:30,280 American Journalist Psychiatry showing that you can hypnotize people to change their color perception of 451 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,639 color and they actually change. They do that they drain color from a color 452 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:37,280 grid or add color of black and white grid, and they actually change blood 453 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:42,360 flow in the parts of the brain that process color vision. So I call 454 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,119 it my believing is seeing experiment. You know where you both of my sons 455 00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:51,760 are colorblind. This would that right, probably not, although it might it 456 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,239 might help them, It would not. It would not make it go away, 457 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,559 but it would maybe. You know, there are sort of on the 458 00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:02,320 edges of color per cues that would give you an idea of what the color 459 00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:08,519 might be, and it's possible that they could use it to sort of pick 460 00:35:08,599 --> 00:35:13,559 up the subtle cues, because for them, if they're trying to look at 461 00:35:13,599 --> 00:35:16,000 color, it's an exercise in frustration sometimes. You know, I just can't 462 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,519 tell red from green, and that, you know, frustrating, and that's 463 00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:22,239 what it is. Green. Yeah, that's the standard one. Actually, 464 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,360 my father and I know that. Like when my son's on the golf course, 465 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:29,400 the one of them and it's a red flag and there's trees behind it. 466 00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:31,079 He can't see it. I can't see it at all. That's interesting, 467 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,480 And the other one just says, I'm color stupid. I just can't 468 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:38,639 figure out what goes together. Well, you know, it might it might 469 00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:43,559 be possible for them to try and pick up cues that they might be ignoring, 470 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,679 because what I hear you're both them saying, and I understand, you 471 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:51,159 know, I'd be like this too, is it's frustrating. So you just 472 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,079 kind of shut it down, you know, just say, don't bother because 473 00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:57,440 you're just going to wind up feeling bad. And so if there any ways 474 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,360 around the edges that they can train their brain to pick up cues that would 475 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:06,000 hint that there may be a contrast there that they're not seeing, it might 476 00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:07,880 be worth a try just to see if they can improve it a little bit. 477 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:16,280 It's because I had a patient recently, a delightful woman, very accomplished, 478 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:22,880 successful, a woman who had to have some chemotherapy that pretty much wiped 479 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,320 out her taste. She just couldn't taste anything. And this is a woman 480 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,239 who was a gourmet chef, a wine kindoisseur, and a lot of the 481 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:37,159 pleasure in her life came from eating. And it was more and more frustrating, 482 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,679 you could tell, you know, because she had built so much of 483 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:45,159 the pleasure in her life around those things. And I had her she was 484 00:36:45,559 --> 00:36:49,880 quite hypnotizable, and I had her try to eat in a different way in 485 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,239 which she would retrain her brain to make the most of the sensations. And 486 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,440 I used what so mayas teach you to do. The way that they actually 487 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,159 taste wine when they're serious about it, is that they hold a puddle of 488 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:07,920 wine in their mouth. They inhale through their mouth and exhale through their nose, 489 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:10,199 so that because much of your taste is actually in your nose, not 490 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:15,960 in your tongue, in your mouth, and so they expose all of the 491 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:24,000 receptors to the taste and the aroma of the food. And I got an 492 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:28,960 email from her the next day, and she said, I'm cured. I 493 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,760 can taste things again, and started out with something she had some residual taste 494 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,760 for, and that was vanilla ice cream. She loved it, so I 495 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,239 had her start with that, but then other foods that she liked to eat, 496 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:44,639 and she is just thrilled she's back at it again. And so I 497 00:37:44,679 --> 00:37:50,840 think sometimes what can get in the way of recovery is the frustration that takes 498 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,440 over when things aren't just the way they were before. And instead of focusing 499 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:59,239 on that, you know, the glass half empty, focus on how you 500 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:04,280 can retrain your brain to make better use of whatever information it's getting. And 501 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,599 so that's what you might help your sons, and I think is something that 502 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:10,679 people can use for variety of things. The same is true with pain control. 503 00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:17,119 We have a great four different pain exercises on the Revery app and people, 504 00:38:19,639 --> 00:38:22,599 you know, they think I'm just condemned to this misery, and the 505 00:38:22,599 --> 00:38:25,800 more they believe that, the more miserable they get. And so if instead 506 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,159 you say, I can teach my brain to modulate these signals. Right now, 507 00:38:30,199 --> 00:38:34,400 for example, Fred, you're sitting in a chair. I guess you 508 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,880 were not aware of the sensations of your body touching the chair. I hope 509 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:43,119 if you were we could just stop the interview now, and so your brain 510 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,119 automatically it's not an area of conflict for you, but it just shuts it 511 00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:51,039 down. I don't need to pay attention to that doesn't matter. Your brain 512 00:38:51,079 --> 00:38:53,800 can do that with pain too, And the problem with pain is that a 513 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,719 lot of people, when they've been injured, they want to be back just 514 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,639 the way they were before it happened, and I would be to I get 515 00:39:00,639 --> 00:39:05,880 that, But all that does is get you to pay more attention to the 516 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,559 pain, unless to other things you would ordinarily be paying attention to. That's 517 00:39:08,559 --> 00:39:13,840 where the focus of attention and hypnosis is so useful, because it gets you 518 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,360 to focus on what you're for, what you want, not on what you're 519 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:22,880 against or frustrated by. So you can sort of use it like a searchlight 520 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:27,239 to focus find the thing you want to find and pay attention to and put 521 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,400 the other things outside of conscious awareness. And we found using functional magnetic resonance 522 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,519 imaging in the brain that one of the things that happens in hypnosis is you 523 00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,840 turn down activity in what we call the salience network. It's a part of 524 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,760 the brain. The singular cortex is like a c on its ends in the 525 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:49,039 middle of your brain, and the front part is sort of your alarm system. 526 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,599 You hear a loud noise and it says, wait a minute, what's 527 00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:54,800 going on out there? You better check, and you turn down activity in 528 00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,320 that part of the brain. People who are more hypnotizable actually have more binding 529 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:07,360 of GABBA, which is an inhibitory neurotransmitter gaba aminoguteric acid in the anterior cingulate. 530 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,800 So they've got their own little internal pharmacy. That's the same transmitter that 531 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:19,360 benzodiazepines activate. And so you got your own little internal hypnopharmacy that will help 532 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:24,199 you soothe your anxiety center and worry less about things you might be worrying about. 533 00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:30,079 And we actually have on Revera what we call a hypnopharmacy where you enter 534 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:32,599 a few of the problems you want to deal with, and we give you 535 00:40:32,639 --> 00:40:37,519 a prescription for which of the hypnotic exercises you can use to help you with 536 00:40:37,559 --> 00:40:43,320 that. But it is hypnosis is a sort of built in anti anxiety experience 537 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:50,360 that will help you and your brain handle problems with less stress. You said 538 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,039 about that woman, she's quite hypnotizable. Then you said, people who are 539 00:40:53,119 --> 00:41:00,280 more hypnotizable than others. What does that mean? And what is the resistance 540 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,239 for those who are not well? It's interesting to use the term resistance, 541 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,320 so the way a lot of people have described it that they're resisting, they're 542 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:14,719 not resisting. People's brains are different, and we change in hypnotizability until we're 543 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,719 young adults, and then we don't change very much anymore. So most children 544 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,960 are in trances most of the time. You know, you ask your eight 545 00:41:22,039 --> 00:41:23,639 year old to come in for dinner and he doesn't hear you. He's out 546 00:41:23,639 --> 00:41:27,840 playing in the street, and what the hell, you know. And gradually, 547 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:34,320 as we mature cognitively, as we start to value reason over experience, 548 00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:37,840 you know, we analyze things more, some of us lose some of that 549 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,239 hypnotic ability. And so by the time you're in your early twenties, your 550 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:46,920 hypnotizability is about as stable as as IQ over at twenty five thirty year interval 551 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:53,119 that's been studied at Stanford here. And so what we find is that highly 552 00:41:53,159 --> 00:41:59,400 hypnotizable people have more functional connectivity. That is, when one is up, 553 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:05,280 the other is between the executive control REACHI, and the prefrontal cortex and the 554 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:09,719 anterior singulate this salience network. And so it makes sense that if the part 555 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,719 of your brain that's thinking is coordinating activity with a part of your brain that's 556 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,239 saying, maybe you should be thinking about something else, that you then are 557 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,079 more likely to allow yourself to go into a deep state of focused attention. 558 00:42:22,199 --> 00:42:28,119 And that's what we see. So about twenty percent of the adult population is 559 00:42:28,159 --> 00:42:34,199 extremely hypnotizable. About sixty percent are somewhat hypnotized. We call the highs the 560 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,000 poets. They're just in it, they just feel it. The majority of 561 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:40,559 people, about almost two thirds, are at least somewhat hypatizable. They have 562 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:44,599 an experience, they step back and reflect and wonder what it's like. We 563 00:42:44,679 --> 00:42:47,440 call them the diplomats. And then as twenty percent, we call the researchers 564 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,960 who just aren't. They're not hypnotizable. They can still benefit from the way 565 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,159 we approach problems by focusing on what you're for now what you're against. And 566 00:42:55,199 --> 00:43:00,679 what we generally find is that highs respond more quickly, but others can respond 567 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,400 as well. To just take them a little longer, little more work. 568 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,119 But the highs do it quicker, but you can find out in about five 569 00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:14,400 minutes what your hypnotizability is on the Reverie app. Okay, let's talk about 570 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:20,719 the Reverie app and what the process is for somebody. I understand you have 571 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,920 a free trial with it. We do. We have a free when we 572 00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:25,840 try it, see if you like it. If you do, great, 573 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,840 if you don't. It doesn't cost anything other than a little bit of time. 574 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,800 And so you can either do the app or the website and it's R 575 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,639 E V E R I. That's correct, and so you can go to 576 00:43:37,639 --> 00:43:40,280 the website. You get a lot of information about Reverie, about me, 577 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,519 about our research on hypnosis. You can get references to our papers, our 578 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:51,920 publications and some and get a feel for the whole array of treatments that we 579 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:57,159 have. And it's a health and wellness skille. It's a way to learn 580 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:01,840 how to better manage your body and problems like insomnia, pain, stress, 581 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:13,920 focus, phobias and anxieties, eating more sensibly, stopping smoking, stopping vaping. 582 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,079 It's a way of and you can take your pick. You can also 583 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,599 download it from the App Store if you have an iOS phone, or from 584 00:44:21,679 --> 00:44:25,039 Google Play if you have an Android, and you can learn get the downloads 585 00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:30,679 from the website as well, So it could be a fun experience at the 586 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,559 least. At the most, it has changed people's lives. We have people 587 00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:42,159 who just say they're a different person. So does it take dedication to do 588 00:44:42,199 --> 00:44:44,599 it, or is it like once or twice and you're good to go, 589 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,719 or is it an ongoing process. It can be some of both. For 590 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,480 some people, they get it, They just you know. I had one 591 00:44:51,519 --> 00:44:53,159 woman who said, I didn't even want to stop smoking, you know, 592 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:59,760 but I had thought in hypnosis about protecting and respecting my body. The second 593 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,280 time I tried it, I lit up a cigarette and went, feat who 594 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,039 needs this? And she said, I haven't smoked it. I can't believe 595 00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:07,440 it. Did she come on, dude, did she really go fat fat? 596 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,760 She's big fat. I could do it. And then she said to 597 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,400 me, you know, Spegel, this is some kind of crazy ass voodoo 598 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,599 shit. And I mean that in a good way, she said. But 599 00:45:16,679 --> 00:45:20,239 her friends can't believe it. You know, they say, you smoke for 600 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,639 twenty five years, you were like the smoker. So for some people it's 601 00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:28,079 like that. For other people it's an exercise they can do every day, 602 00:45:28,199 --> 00:45:30,199 in the morning, when they get up, or before they go to sleep 603 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,840 if they're trying to go to sleep, or when they want to get back 604 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,920 to sleep in the middle of the night. So for some people it's more 605 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,119 of a regular practice. For other people, once they make the transition, 606 00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:43,800 they put it aside and go ahead, or they try it for something else. 607 00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:47,400 So it's the nice thing is it doesn't have to take that much time 608 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,760 and effort for many people, but even if it does, it's worth it. 609 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,000 Right. So once the free trial is complete, and how long is 610 00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:01,800 that? That's a week, and then what happened? You have a choice 611 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:07,920 of signing up for a month at a time, for a year, or 612 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,760 for lifetime, which is not a whole lot more than a year actually, 613 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,119 And so the price has changed, so I won't quote a price, but 614 00:46:16,199 --> 00:46:21,039 it's not outrgeous. It's even for lifetime, it's less than you would usually 615 00:46:21,119 --> 00:46:25,039 pay just to go to a professional for one session to do hypnosis in person. 616 00:46:25,639 --> 00:46:30,360 So it's it's a good investment in your future and in your mind and 617 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,079 body. Wow, this has been fascinating and I can definitely see the uses 618 00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:37,119 for golf. I really can't. I'm glad well, I'm glad to hear 619 00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:39,800 that from you. That that makes me feel good that you can see the 620 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,199 connections. Yeah, well, thank you so much, David. I really 621 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:50,639 appreciate the conversation and the insights and the education. You're most welcome, Fred, 622 00:46:50,679 --> 00:46:55,719 It's been a pleasure. So I've been traveling a lot lately in the 623 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,960 last month, and that has been really helpful to stay away from golf clubs 624 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:08,960 and keep my arm in a good place and stretching resistance training every day for 625 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:13,199 an hour. And I think I'm gonna be picking up a golf club soon. 626 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,719 I'm really excited. But I'm headed out again tomorrow for a long weekend 627 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,480 in Atlanta, and I was really hoping to play with doctor Bob Jones meet 628 00:47:22,559 --> 00:47:25,159 up with him there, but it's not gonna happen, and that's okay because 629 00:47:25,199 --> 00:47:30,079 the weather's crappy there too. But we're still planning to get him back on 630 00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:35,039 the podcast the week of the Masters to talk about golf history and the impact 631 00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:37,800 his grandfather, Bobby Jones, had on the game and that region of the 632 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:43,039 country. Thanks go out this week to our newest Golf Smarter Ambassador, Gary 633 00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:46,440 Leslie of Bay City, Michigan, Carrie, are you a Bay City Roller? 634 00:47:47,199 --> 00:47:52,159 Okay, if you'd like to get a choice of three great gifts just 635 00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:55,199 for sharing with us where you're from and where you play, right directly to 636 00:47:55,320 --> 00:48:00,679 me and I'll send you simple instructions on how to record. Check out today's 637 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,519 show notes to find links about each gift that you have to choose from, 638 00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:08,280 and thanks for your patience. As Mulligan's continues to be on hiatus, but 639 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:13,440 it will be back soon and we're going to have a big announcement of our 640 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,880 new format of episodes from our archives in the next few weeks, so please 641 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:22,880 stay tuned for that. If you have any questions, comments, and especially 642 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:29,960 about our new AI generated show notes, or maybe suggestions for upcoming episodes, 643 00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:35,360 right to Golf Smarter podcast at gmail dot com or click on the Heyfred button 644 00:48:35,639 --> 00:48:37,400 when you're visiting Golfsmarter dot com.